From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2001 #521 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Saturday, October 27 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 521 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Today in Joni History: October 27 [les@jmdl.com] Today's Articles: October 27 [les@jmdl.com] Re: Flags njc ["Marian" ] Re: Was Pro-American/what should our response be? long njc ["Marian" ] RE: Anne (NJC) ["Mary E. Pitassi" ] RE: support for war effort (NJC) ["Mary E. Pitassi" ] Re: Jim Crow njc [Catherine McKay ] RE: Pro-American, JMDL? NJC ["Mary E. Pitassi" ] Re: Pro-American, JMDL? njc ["Sharon L. Buffington" ] RE: report cards (NJC) ["Mary E. Pitassi" ] Re: report cards (NJC) ["Sharon L. Buffington" ] Re: Pro american?? njc ["Bree Mcdonough" ] Re: foolish bob NJC [Reuben3rd@aol.com] a quote from a Hopi elder njc ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Pro american?? njc [colin ] Re: Ben Folds njc [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: foolish Yankee bob NJC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Reworked Joni Tribute Part 2 [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Subject: Re: Pro-American, JMDL? njc ["Kate Bennett" ] The Road Less Travelled NJC ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Pro-American, JMDL? njc ["Dolphie Bush" Subject: Re: Flags njc On Fri, 26 Oct 2001 18:20:35 EDT Relayer211@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 10/26/01 6:14:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > FredNow@aol.com writes: << We're all born, we all die, we all love, we all cry. It's time to set aside artificial differences of culture, nation, religion, it's time to embrace our common humanity, it's time for all people of Earth to come together ... >> > EXACTLY!!!! That's the message that I'm always trying to get > across...Love of country is fine but infinitely more important > on a deeper, more spiritual level, is a love of all people and > every other creature on Planet Earth, where God is in each > and every one of us...Race,religion,gender,nationality,age, > class,political persuasion...these are all artificial divisions > that separate instead of unite... This is how I feel. Marian marian@jmdl.com http://www.jmdl.com/guitar/marian/guitar.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 10:06:47 +0100 From: "Marian" Subject: Re: Was Pro-American/what should our response be? long njc Brenda brenda@killinggoliath.com wrote: << ... The war on terrorism is justified in my book. But whether the battle of Afghanistan proves to be an efficacy step in the war can only be answered by the passing of time - as more things that are now hidden become revealed and outcomes both expected and unexpected are faced.>> Nice post, Brenda. You made a lot of really good points, most all of which I agreed with. Before the bombing began, I read many articles such as the one you quoted from nybooks which argued against waging war in Afghanistan. I agreed with all of those articles. I feel that it would have been better in the long term had the US government not begun the current Afghanistan campaign which I fear will result in more people who hate the USA and more terrorists (one only has to look at the demonstrations that have occurred in Pakistan to come to that conclusion). I do not feel that I am un-American for disagreeing with what is happening now or for preferring peace. I just disagree with bombing in general. I feel it is very important to set up peaceful means to prevent further terrorist attacks and I hope it will be possible to support financially future efforts to rebuild Afghanistan and make life better for the people there when the war has ended. I am powerless to stop the bombing, so all I can do is wait and see what the outcome will be. My hope is that the citizens of Afghanistan will have the possibility of a better life when all is said and done. There have been complaints in the last years about the oppression in Afghanistan, especially of the women there, and it has been unfortunate that nothing was ever (or could ever be) done for them. If their lives can become better as one of the results of this war, then what is happening now will have at least one saving grace. Marian marian@jmdl.com http://www.jmdl.com/guitar/marian/guitar.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 04:53:35 -0400 From: waytoblu@mindspring.com Subject: tour report!(njc) Hey everyone! It's about 5 in the morning, and I'm at a house in Raleigh, North Carolina near where we played tonight at the Lincoln Theatre, a really nice venue. The energy tonight was incredible. There were two drummers, two guitars, bass, a singer, and of course, keyboards. I'm having more fun than I've ever had and am in no hurry to return home. I'll provide set lists later but we did Terrapin tonight, and a really good Morning Dew, with a sizzling encore of US Blues, and afterwards a really pretty Ripple. One more show tomorrow in Greenville and then back home. But hopefully, there will be many more to follow. I'm pretty sure there's a show coming up soon in Greenville, SC at the Handlebar, Bob... Hope everyone is having a stellar weekend. Oh, and we got to stay at a house on the beach, Thursday night, and the water was just gorgeous. Victor o ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 05:38:20 EDT From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: Pro-American, JMDL? njc TimandMaryPowers@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 10/26/01 1:21:25 PM, FredNow@aol.com writes: >> >>All we are saying is give peace a chance. > >I'd like to chime in here. I don't believe in giving peace any more of >a chance than it's already gotten (remember, the Taliban had a month to turn >over bin laden). A month? That's nothing ... conflict resolution takes a lot more time and patience. We haven't given peace a chance at all. >Frankly, I think all this peace talk does not reflect >reality. Remember the 6,000 people who were killed? We didn't ask for >that, and if we don't strike back, we're saying their lives are in essence >worthless. So the 6000 innocent lives that were lost will be worthless unless we waste innocent lives, too? >Kill our people and we'll give you lots of aid. Huh? "Huh?" is right ... no one is suggesting giving aid to the terrorists; that's a sloppy and, ultimately, dishonest portrayal of what I was suggesting. The plan I outlined calls for giving aid to moderate Muslim masses (instead of killing them, either directly or as a result of our sanctions) so that their support of our coalition will be based on something more meaningful than John Wayne-type challenges of "Either you're with us or against us." The plan also calls for tracking down the terrorists with focused, covert action, not broad bombing, especially not of the sort that blows up not one but now two Red Cross warehouses by mistake ... you know, those buildings with the big red crosses on the roofs? Someone punched in the wrong coordinates for the target ... oops! >There are a lot of people who hate us. I don't care why they hate us; >they just do. As Susan Sontag eloquently wrote, "Let's by all means grieve together, but let's not be stupid together." If we don't examine why the extremists hate us so much, and then we respond in a way that provokes more of their hatred, as well as provoking more moderate Arabs and Muslims who may not hate us now but will soon when the civilian body count gets high enough, then we will surely see many, many more American civilian deaths. >I agree that there has been a very great deal of anti-American sentiment >expressed on this site. It's gone beyond criticizing to demonizing. When >you paint the US as more evil than the Taliban and Bin Laden, which I think >a number of these posts have done, you demonize us. I've seen too many emails >along the lines of "poor victim bin laden, protecting his culture against >the evil US". That is demonizing us. I guess I should be insulted that by starting your response with a quote from my post, you're suggesting that this is what I am saying. It simply isn't, and no amount of you saying so will make it so. No one here is pitying Usama bin Laden, no one here is calling him a victim, no one here is painting the U.S. as "more evil than the Taliban and bin Laden" ... that's a hyperbolic red herring of the highest order, and quite an enormous and specious leap from suggesting that some past and present U.S. foreign policy needs to be questioned and modified. In the parlance of pop-psychology guru Dr. Phil, he might well ask us "So, how's that 'shoot first, ask questions later' thing working for you?" This is *exactly* what the terrorists want, to galvanize the Muslim world against the U.S. and the West. Why on earth would we want to play right into their hands? - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 05:43:30 EDT From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: Mars njc TimandMaryPowers@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 10/26/01 3:14:46 PM, FredNow@aol.com writes: >> >>... and kill all the motherfuckin' Martians! > >You must have seen "Mars attacks". a funny movie. Actually, I haven't. I was just referencing Lenny Bruce's great bit about blacks, Jews, Greeks, Irish, Japanese, etc., all sticking together -- to beat up the Polacks! - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 07:05:24 -0400 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: RE: Joni on BRAVO!!!!!!!! YAY!!!!!!!!! What is the content of the segment, and how long is it? Does Joni perform? Talk? I don't get Bravo, and have to decide whether I have to ask a friend to tape it. - ----------------------------------- Deb Messling =^..^= - ----------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 08:41:23 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: NJC Re: tour report!(njc) << I'm pretty sure there's a show coming up soon in Greenville, SC at the Handlebar, Bob... >> I'll be there, Victor! Thanks for the update - I KNOW you're having a ball. And the band HAS to be delighted with what you have to offer them! Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 06:23:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Mags N Brei Subject: Re: Golden Birthday And the birthday Queen responds.... thank you Sharon for this beauteous imaginative birthday greeting. I have not been on the computer much this week as I am entertaining the King still ;-) ... I just wanted to say that I am so touched and moved by all of the birthday greetings, messages, cards and love received by my precious jmdl family. these remain challenging days with my daughter and the notes you all sent have helped so much to ease the burden. Sometimes I forget that I am not alone. Thank you for reminding me. and for those of you who did send something, I will be responding soon. love, Mahgs <--- thats dutch for Mags ;P npimh: Anne Sandstrom singing Bread and Roses p.s. Brian and I spent the last several evenings lighting candles for Anne and saying prayers and sending thoughts of hope and healing and light. We listened to her CD while eating dinner with the hope that all of the above will help her to know that she is so very loved by us. looking forward to hearing you again soon Anne. xoxox - --- "Sharon L. Buffington" wrote: > Sorry I forgot to send this to my friends from the 'group' :) > > Dear Mags: > > I hear this is your golden birthday...24 years old on the 24th!! > You DO know right...that you can eat anything you want on your golden > birthday and not gain a pound. It is part of the golden rule. So > enjoy > all the liver and onions, lima beans, brussel sprouts, canned peas, > squid, sweetbreads, and knockwurst to your heart's content. I have > made > a fabulous brown sugar bundt cake (heavy as a pound cake) for your > birthday. Hell offered to bring the ice cream. Yael quietly sang a > song > she wrote about not traveling with ice cream over international > borders. Lori is bringing rainbow hats and fortune cookies along > with > some very great news about her mother. And Kerry, well she has a > thing > for Miss Muffet and her tuffet so she is bringing cheese curds. > Susan, > also known as "The Gutz" has prepared a video for you of her riding > her > Moto Guzzi while singing "Black Crow". > > Happy Birthday Mags. > > Peace.......Sharon ===== I've got you to see me through, looking out for what I do Spreading sunshine from the skies, placing rainbows in my eyes Got you watching out for me, making sense of what I see When my world is wearing blue, I've got you to see me through . - ---by Eleanor McEvoy on her album Yola (2001) . Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 09:27:32 -0500 From: "Mary E. Pitassi" Subject: RE: Anne (NJC) Ashara, thank you so much for relaying this news--and what good news it is!! And I'm so glad you've been there to support Anne on a day-by-day basis throughout all of this. What a good friend you've been. Off to get my card, Mary P. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 09:52:48 -0500 From: "Mary E. Pitassi" Subject: RE: support for war effort (NJC) I wrote, and Mack responded: "Mack: wrong, unless you're counting me as that one (and Deb Messling has already volunteered to take that spot!). No Mary, not wrong. I said I can only remember three. I didn't say there were only three and that I knew that for a fact." Mack, you're absolutely right. You said you could REMEMBER only three, and if you could indeed remember only three, then your statment was correct. My response should have read, "wrong that there ARE only three." Although the pendulum has probably swung decisively in the opposite direction, I recall (unless I'm remembering this wrong, which is always possible) much more support expressed on this list for the prospect of military action in the two weeks directly after the attacks. At least at that time, the pacifists or those having serious reservations about the U.S.'s involvement in this particular war were most definitely in the minority. Cheers, and enjoy that cyber-lemon bread (I got some, too! ;-) ) Mary P. P.S. What kind of nursing do you practice? And where in Texas are you, if you haven't already said? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 11:46:24 EDT From: YORK48CAD@aol.com Subject: Re: Pro american?? njc Last week my husband and I drove 300 miles south to Santa Cruz, Ca. On the way We saw hundreds of cars with flags. It really started to bug me, and I'll tell you why. Is it because I'm anti-American? I guess it depends on what your definition of "American" is. It bugged me because all I could think of was how in the months to come, we will be seeing all of America littered with ripped up, torn up flags. On a street corner in Santa Cruz, I saw the remnants of a shrine, now faded and littered. I wondered who was going to clean it up? I along with other Americans hung out my flag after 9/11, but it is supposed to rain tomorrow, and I think I'll take it down. Because I'm sick of flags anyway. People are dying and I can't help myself, I think it's wrong. But....I have no answers. I think there should be no guns. None. Then there wouldn't be war or at least the kind of war we are in now. Maybe people would be throwing rocks at each other, but that's not so dangerous. You could run. I also think we should be teaching our sons to be gentle. I mean, how many woman terrorists do you know? All this macho, kick ass shit really bugs me. Have you noticed George? I swear he grew 2 inches and now has a John Wayne strut. But, to be honest, it makes me feel a little better, because before I could only see a monkey when I looked at him, or that guy from mad magazine. Would Al Gore have done things differently??? I think not. I am spouting off, and I'm sure I'll get some flack. By the way I love men, I'm just speaking the truth. I'm just frustrated because I watched our small town raise $100,000 in one day, and we don't even have a decent public library!!!! So many things can be done right in your back yard, and very few rise to the occasion. And I'm speaking for myself as well. Moral to the story....do things that make a difference.....ALL the time. Peace, Julie ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 09:08:41 -0700 From: "Brenda J. Walker" Subject: An apology (or two) - NJC I would like to apologize for a few things I've written on the list within the last few weeks. 1) I apologize for writing that it was a relief that it was Etta Jones who passed away and not Etta James. I believe it was Fred who pointed out that it may not have been a relief to her family and friends and I never thanked him for calling me on that. 2) I apologize for a misplaced word in this sentence: "But whether the battle of Afghanistan proves to be an efficacy step in the war can only be answered by the passing of time - as more things that are now hidden become revealed and outcomes both expected and unexpected are faced." It should be "efficacious" not "efficacy". (I hate when that happens. Sometimes I feel like I've become to reliant on spell checking. It can't catch a mistake like that.) 3) I apologize for using the phrase "Afghani people". It should have been "Afghan people." 4) I apologize for referring to Indonesia as an Islamist nation. Indonesia is a republic which has the world's largest Muslim population. 5) I apologize for using the term radical islamist in reference to a Chinese province. "He (President Bush) went to China (not the least reason for which, I'll bet, is China's radical islamist population in its most oil rich Northern province)." I should have put the phrases in quotation marks because that's what the news report called that population. However, I do not know for myself that they are radical. I only know that there is a Muslim population there. I do not want to mislead anyone to think that my comment in any way confirms a connection between that population and bin Laden's network. 6) I'd like to apologize if I've ever used the words "fundamentalist islamists" for those associated with terrorist acts, Osama bin Laden or the "al Qaeda" network. There was an author named Elinor Burkett on KCET last night who spent a year in a Minneapolis suburban high school. Her motivation was the Colombine shootings. Burkett's observations from her time at the school were published on October 2nd. The title is "Another Planet: A Year in the Life of a Suburban High School." Burkett is now a professor at a university in Kyrgyzstan. She was there on 9/11 and talked about comments from some of her students. Her Muslim students pointed out that there is as wide a spectrum amongst Islamists as there is among Christians. To paraphrase, all fundamentalist Muslims are not terrorist, just as all fundamentalist Christians do not bomb abortion clinics. (The transcript for the show isn't up yet otherwise I would give an exact quote.) I try very hard to be very careful about my word choices. So I hope that I haven't caused any misunderstandings with any of my mistakes. Thanks for reading. Brenda n.p.: WNYC Brenda ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 12:14:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Jim Crow njc - --- "Brenda J. Walker" wrote: > Jim Crow was a character created by the first white > actor to wear blackface, > Thomas Rice, who is credited with being the father > of the minstrel show. [...] > From its popularity in the minstrel shows, the term > became popular as a racial > slur meant to portray blacks as lazy, stupid and > inferior. It was later > adopted as a description for the post-Reconstruction > segregation laws, social > mores and intimidation practices which were in > principle based on the idea that > blacks were inferior to whites and thus the two > groups should not mingle. [...] > http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/biblio?inkey=1-0195146905-0 > > Hope that answer is not too long-winded! > Not at all - I never knew that. Thanks for the explanation. Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 11:18:35 -0500 From: "Mary E. Pitassi" Subject: RE: Pro-American, JMDL? NJC OK, I gave myself two weeks, but I just can't resist jumping into this one! And I agree with a significant portion of what Kakki states here. Kakki wrote, in response to Randy Relayer: "While I'm sure there may be some who would wish they didn't have to hear some of the dissent, I would also bet everything that the people who you would characterize as "extreme patriots" would be the same ones fighting the hardest to defend and secure your right to dissent. I also find it strange that you characterize the overwhelming sense of unity that Americans have felt since Sept. 11th as "extreme patriotism" like it is some "movement" that people consciously decided to create sole for the purpose of making dissenters feel uncomfortable or to "silence" the views of dissenters. It troubles me that perhaps some people can't just look at American people coming together in a time of crisis as simply hearts and souls showing solidarity with each other. To me, it is really more about hearts and spirits feeling protective and supportive of each other than "nationalism" or some kind of "political" statement." Me now: not at all surprisingly, considering where I'm posting this, I can see this situation from both sides now! One one hand, I agree with Kakki that the displays of patriotism and patriotic statements do not constitute in any way a "movement" for the purpose of stifling dissent. And I agree that they sprang into being on the spot, amidst great grief, in a moment of national crisis, and at least in part of a way for Americans to provide much-needed support to one one another, as well as for their country. I experienced this impromptu national reaction in an extremely personal way. Two days after the attacks I happened to be on the road traveling halfway across the Midwest for a long-planned family event, after disregarding the urgent pleas of some family members not to chance it. "You don't know what will happen next," they reasoned; "there are likely to be incidents of gas-gouging and explosions of road rage." What did I find instead? "God Bless America" and "United We Stand" on every toll both with an electronic sign that I passed through on my 600-mile journey. People already flying flags and wearing flag pins. Smiles. Tears. And, rather than road rage, I found my fellow travelers to be unfailingly polite, gentler, and much more accommodating than on any similar trip that I had ever made in the past. We had just been through the ringer and back, and we were helping each other through that experience together. It didn't matter that we were total strangers. We were Americans, and we were, indeed, united. So I've experienced that side. And yet, in all honesty, I must also say that, in the first several weeks after the attack, when opinion polls were running at 90% in favor of both President Bush and his planned actions, I did NOT feel completely secure in sharing certain opinions of mine that differed strongly from those of the clear majority. I personally know others who felt much the same way. I can't put my finger on why. We didn't fear violence--nothing like that, thank God. However, we certainly didn't feel that our views would be welcomed or listened to. So, due to wanting to avoid a fight in a particularly stressful time, and out of not a small amount of deference for the unique moment in national history in which we all found ourselves, many of us simply did not voice them. Kakki, you have spoken many times about your opposition to "groupthink," and I commend you for that. But "groupthink" can arise out of many different sources, and can spring up intentionally, or not. My fear here is that, while I certainly DON'T believe that stifling dissent was at all intended, the stress of the times and the sheer strength of the majority view may sometimes have led to something very much like that, as an unanticipated byproduct of the events and our reactions to them. Personally, I've experienced or heard about the squelching or self-censoring of views perceived by some as "unpatriotic" with far, far greater regularity than I have examples of removing flags or symbols from public institutions, or the silencing of "patriotic" speech. Of course, your mileage may vary. I understand why it happened. These are extraordinary times. But I do think and hope we can agree that any time the majority (or the strong) silences the voice of the minority (or the weak), except when questions of national security are implicated, that that is not what this country is in any way about. And I hope that minority views on either "side" continue to be expressed, in universities, in cities like mine, and on this list. In solidarity and lemon bread, Mary P. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 11:27:47 -0500 From: "Sharon L. Buffington" Subject: Re: Pro-American, JMDL? njc All those who want the lemon bread recipe...please contact me off line and I will give it to you. :) Tomorrow Kerry will be visiting me on her way back to Milwaukee from the Twin Cities...and I have a fresh loaf of lemon bread waiting here for her to take home. :) Peace....Sharon...who is cooking and cleaning while listening to Yo Yo Ma "Classic Yo Yo" Catherine McKay wrote: > > --- "Sharon L. Buffington" > > Placing a slice of freshly baked lemon bread on > > Mack's plate... > > > > All this talk about politics now and all I keep > noticing is the (mmmmmmm) references to (mmmmmmm) > lemmmmmmmmmmmon bread. Can I please, please, puleez > have the recipe? I'mmmmmmm getting hungry! > Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 12:27:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Pro american?? njc - --- YORK48CAD@aol.com wrote: > Have you noticed George? I swear he grew 2 inches > and now has a John Wayne > strut. But, to be honest, it makes me feel a little > better, because before I > could only see a monkey when I looked at him, or > that guy from mad magazine. LOL - now that you mention it... Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 11:27:28 -0500 From: "Mary E. Pitassi" Subject: RE: report cards (NJC) I'll have to check with my mom, but I think my report cards stated over and over again, with monotonous regularity, that I was docile, quiet, and sweet. ;-) Mary P. Exchanged for an alien child very late one night years ago. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 11:41:03 -0500 From: "Sharon L. Buffington" Subject: Re: report cards (NJC) Well that explains everything....as Kate said to me in a private missive..."perfect SDS material" LOL Peace...the alien lemon "Mary E. Pitassi" wrote: > > I'll have to check with my mom, but I think my report cards stated over and > over again, with monotonous regularity, that I was docile, quiet, and sweet. > ;-) > > Mary P. > Exchanged for an alien child very late one night years ago. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 09:41:25 -0700 From: "Brenda J. Walker" Subject: Re: Reworked Joni Tribute Part 2 On 26 Oct 2001, at 8:52, SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > And while I can vouch for the fact that Joni's been covered a lot, I thank my > lucky stars that I'm not commanding a Dylan covers project! While Joni's got one > "franchise" song (BSN) and maybe 2 others (Woodstock & BYT), Dylan's got about > 20 that fall in that BSN category! What I don't know, and what would be an > interesting thing to research, is what percentage of Joni's songs vs. Dylan's > songs have been covered. Obviously, The Beatles have been covered more as well, > but the reference was to a SINGLE songwriter. I would guess that Paul Simon has > probably been covered as much as Joni. Just a guess. I have racked my brain trying to think of a single or even a collection of resources which would yield the answer to this question without a very time intensive effort. Most of the recording databases are categorized by artist, album and song with some metadata relative to the release but not songwriter. The performing rights databases are very weak in terms of the amount of information made available. And the publishers themselves are less concerned with the number of covers and more concerned with tracking the revenue generated by the most financially successful covers. I'm stumped. Brenda n.p.: Cowboy Junkies - "Sweet Jane" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 12:55:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Ben Folds njc After all the talk about Ben Folds, I decided to download some stuff from MusicCity.com - say what you will about these music-sharing things, this is a great way to hear stuff that you might get only 30-sec. soundbites from otherwise and to decide whether you like someone's music enough to go out and buy their album. Let me tell you - I will certainly be going out and getting anything by Ben Folds. I am just so impressed. NP Ben Folds - The Ascent of Stan (good music and witty, funny lyrics) Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 09:57:18 -0700 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: Pro american?? njc >think of was how in the months to come, we will be seeing all of America >littered with ripped up, torn up flags. On a street corner in Santa Cruz, >I >saw the remnants of a shrine, now faded and littered. I wondered who was >going to clean it up. Now it has come down to litter when it comes to the flag? Who's going to clean it up? You must have a clean, clean house!! Have you seen the litter from Sept,11-----now that is litter?! I think there should be no >guns. None. Maybe people would be throwing rocks at each other, but >that's not >so dangerous. You could run. What about using planes as missiles? Yes, let only the thugs, murders,rapists, terrorists, have guns. And we must not forget the anthrax and smallpox spreaders......only arms for them. All this macho, kick ass shit really bugs me. >Have you noticed George? I swear he grew 2 inches and now has a John Wayne >strut. But, to be honest, it makes me feel a little better, because before >I >could only see a monkey when I looked at him, or that guy from mad >magazine. Look, Bush has a lot of weight on his shoulders right now.....thank God for the two inches of growth. He's up to the task. At least he is real and not soulless. I like his style, and I'm so happy that he doesn't wring tears from mourners and display phony, phony tears himself. He is not windy and speaks the truth. No, he's not the sharpest knife in the drawer. I'm not either, I guess that is why I can relate. Julie, you sound like a sweet person who I think is little over the top when it comes to litter. But, if that is a concern of yours at this time, what can I say? Utopia I believe is far off, we have some ruff,ruff waters before then. Bree.... who proudly displays a flag on her person, car, home,office,red, white and blue in my wardrobe. I might even paint the trees the colors of "old glory"......... _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 12:57:33 EDT From: Reuben3rd@aol.com Subject: Re: foolish bob NJC >>Form 5 (age 15): She is sometimes a little too chatty and cheerful in class. *Too cheerful*? Like that's a bad thing?<< That's awful. In 4th grade someone decided I had a speech impediment (which I didn't) and tossed me into speech therapy for a year without notifying my parents. To this day, I am still slightly self conscious about my speaking voice, almost 20 years later. Sick. Reuben ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 10:30:13 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: a quote from a Hopi elder njc A co-worker gave me this. I thought some of you might like to see it. It sounds like the type of thing Joni would find interesting. I don't really know where it came from so I can't vouch for it's authenticity but since it's more about spirituality than actual events I thought it would be ok to pass one. a quote from a Hopi elder: "There is a river flowing now very fast. It is so great and swift, that there are those who will be afraid. They will try to hold on to the shore, they will feel they are being torn apart and will suffer greatly. Know that the river has its destination. The elders say we must let go of the shore, push off into the middle of the river, keep our eyes open and our heads above the water. And I say see who is there with you and celebrate. At this time in history, we are to take nothing personally, least of all ourselves, for the moment we do, our spiritual growth and journey come to a halt. The time of the lone wolf is over. Gather yourselves. Banish the word struggle from your attitude and vocabulary. All that we do now must be done in a sacred manner and in celebration. We are the ones we have been waiting for." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 19:22:50 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: Pro american?? njc > I also think we should be teaching our sons to be gentle. I mean, how many > woman terrorists do you know? All this macho, kick ass shit really bugs me. There was a guy on Oprah the other day explaining how male children are brought up to be macho, not to be themselves. Shutting off one's feelings, as boys are taught, is not good. Of course so many adult men would deny this has happened because the training has worked so well. There is so much pressure on bys to not be tender, not to cry etc. Boys who do get lablled gay, or sissy, or a wimp orweak. So boys soon learn to bury that part of themselves. hence the trouble men have later. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 14:16:00 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Ben Folds njc << Let me tell you - I will certainly be going out and getting anything by Ben Folds. I am just so impressed. >> Great on you, Catherine! I agree about the "music sharing thingies"...they are supportive of the music industry, and not destructive. Enjoy the Ben! :~) Bob NP: Ryan Adams, "Goodnight Hollywood Blvd." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 14:22:10 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: foolish Yankee bob NJC << To this day, I am still slightly self conscious about my speaking voice, almost 20 years later. Sick. >> Damn, that's awful, Reuben. That's like the old habit of lining kids up against the backstop and having the two most popular kids pick teams, one by one. Talk about getting your self-esteem kicked in the ass. I was always among the last ones picked, and not even because I was a poor athlete - it was because I was a "Yankee" and talked "funny". Sad too that PE teachers still allow this system to flourish when it comes to choosing teams for playground sports. Bob NP: Ryan Adams, "Rosalie Come and Go" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 14:55:39 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Reworked Joni Tribute Part 2 << I have racked my brain trying to think of a single or even a collection of resources which would yield the answer to this question without a very time intensive effort. >> Believe me, Brenda, there's NOT a good public database for this kind of information. It takes hours & hours & hours of research to track it down, and it's never complete! We can take pride in the fact that we JMDLer's have one of the best covers (and articles) databases on the web for an artist of Joni's magnitude. Bob NP: Jay Farrar, "Damn Shame" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 12:03:04 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Subject: Re: Pro-American, JMDL? njc >>>I'd like to chime in here. I don't believe in giving peace any more of a chance than it's already gotten (remember, the Taliban had a month to turn over bin laden). Frankly, I think all this peace talk does not reflect reality.<<<< I don't think peace was ever really given a chance. I cringed the moment that ultimatum of turning over bin laden was declared. I am sure the president felt he needed to appease people who wanted to see bin laden pay. But I imagine the US US citizens would have supported him saying, we are going to try & get bin laden but we are going to do it a different way. And then gone about enacting the plan that has already been suggested here by Fred. >>>>Remember the 6,000 people who were killed? We didn't ask for that, and if we don't strike back, we're saying their lives are in essence worthless.<<<< Why do people believe that striking back is the only way to achieve justice? I have never understood that reasoning. >>>>Kill our people and we'll give you lots of aid. Huh? All through the 90's, we failed to retaliate when struck and now we get this.<<<< There is some confusion here. No one has suggested providing aid to bin laden & his followers. The Afghan people are not responsible for this tragedy. >>>There are a lot of people who hate us. I don't care why they hate us; they just do. Whether it's our fault or not (and I think much of it is not) is beside the point. We have to strike back when we are attacked this violently.<<< I think it is important to understand why some people feel this way. Some of it may have roots in US foreign policy & some may not. But for our us to ignore this, at this time, would be dangerous in my opinion. I think there is lots we can do to gain favor in the world & this is the time to do so. But first we must understand. >>>I agree that there has been a very great deal of anti-American sentiment expressed on this site. It's gone beyond criticizing to demonizing. When you paint the US as more evil than the Taliban and Bin Laden, which I think a number of these posts have done, you demonize us. I've seen too many emails along the lines of "poor victim bin laden, protecting his culture against the evil US". That is demonizing us.<<< There has been criticism of US foreign policy, past & present. That is not anti-American. Maybe someone who believes that the criticism of foreign policy is anti-American needs to define what they believe being pro-American is...is it supporting the president right or wrong? Is someone who holds the position of president always right? Isn't being pro-American about believing in democracy, about differing views, about freedom of speech, etc? There is a long history of dissent in our country that has brought about positive change. Isn't this pro-American? >>>A number of you are going to be offended by this. I'm sorry, but I've been equally offended at all of the "evil US" stuff I've been hearing around here lately. For example, that IMO disgusting editorial by Barbara Kingsolver. When people strike us like that, we just can't roll over and die.<<< Hs anyone said the US was evil? I haven't read that anywhere here. I believe our president did a very good job of speaking up for the Muslim people & making sure that the US citizens did not blaim all of the Muslim world. In the early days I was shocked to hear some (not here on this list) ranting about how all of the Islams (they meant Muslims) must pay. I just read the Michael Kelly articles. His representation of people who are not in support of this war are based on an extremist charactiture rather than a real understanding of the issues. In my opinion, his writing was more inflamatory than thoughtful. ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 14:28:40 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: Re: Pro-American, JMDL? NJC Mary wrote: And I hope that minority views on either "side" continue to be > expressed, in universities, in cities like mine, and on this list. Very good Mary and once again insightful. Thanks Mack> ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 14:55:23 -0500 From: "Sharon L. Buffington" Subject: Re: Joni and Kate njc Dear Mark: Thank you for your sweet soul Mark. This does sound like something Joni would be interested in and it sounds like something our Kate would write. Love and Peace.....Sharon Mark or Travis wrote: > > A co-worker gave me this. I thought some of you might like to see it. > It sounds like the type of thing Joni would find interesting. I don't > really know where it came from so I can't vouch for it's authenticity > but since it's more about spirituality than actual events I thought it > would be ok to pass one. > > a quote from a Hopi elder: > > "There is a river flowing now very fast. > > It is so great and swift, that there are those who will be afraid. > > They will try to hold on to the shore, they will feel they are being > torn apart and will suffer greatly. > > Know that the river has its destination. > > The elders say we must let go of the shore, push off into the middle > of the river, keep our eyes open and our heads above the water. > > And I say see who is there with you and celebrate. > > At this time in history, we are to take nothing personally, least of > all ourselves, for the moment we do, our spiritual growth and journey > come to a halt. > > The time of the lone wolf is over. > > Gather yourselves. > > Banish the word struggle from your attitude and vocabulary. > > All that we do now must be done in a sacred manner and in celebration. > > We are the ones we have been waiting for." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 17:03:32 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: hopi words njc oh my darling mark!!!! how much peace and joy you have brought to my heart today! i hadn't felt this way for over a month. these words so beautifully express my creed and the lesson i wish we could learn. thank you, dear mark. wallushka WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 13:03:35 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: The Road Less Travelled NJC Brenda, thanks for posting this article by a "retired US Foreign Service officer, (who) served as US Ambassador at Large for Counterterrorism between 1994 and 1997." Many people here have been saying these very things. Maybe his experience will give more credence to these issues. Indeed, it would be the road less travelled.... He said: "Armed force, however, while politically popular, is usually an ineffective and often counterproductive weapon against terror... But a new national security strategy must (deal) not just with the symptoms but with the roots of terrorism, broadly defined." "The use of military force is questionable for other reasons. Islamist terrorists throughout the world seek death through martyrdom. Far from deterring these self-proclaimed holy warriors, US military attacks would likely inspire them to carry out even more dangerous acts of terrorism; the effect could well be to increase recruitment and raise the stature of the terrorists in the underworld of militant Islam." "At the same time, using military force against terrorists in sovereign foreign states is likely to raise difficult legal issues. Unilateral attacks may violate international laws, including treaties against terrorism that the US has worked hard to strengthen; and they may alienate governments, especially in the Islamic world, whose cooperation we need." "The most important deficiency in US counterterrorism policy has been the failure to address the root causes of terrorism. Indeed, there is a tendency to treat terrorism as pure evil in a vacuum, to say that changes in foreign policy intended to reduce it will only "reward" terrorists." "But the US should, for its own self-protection, expand efforts to reduce the pathology of hatred before it mutates into even greater danger... Limiting the proliferation of lethal materials also deserves higher priority as a measure against terrorism as well as for arms control." "We should also search for ways to strengthen the common bonds between Western values and Islam to combat the notion of a "clash of civilizations" and to weaken the Islamist extremist fringe that hates the West and supports terrorist actions. Such new departures in US foreign policy would require devoting far greater resources to support a more engaged, cooperative, and influential American role abroad. Redefining national security and counterterrorism in this broader sense is the most promising way to fight the war against terrorism. It is vital that we do this soon, now that the stakes have been raised so high." ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 15:41:31 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: Re: Pro-American, JMDL? njc fred wrote: > Here's one: Marshall Plan First ... serious humanitarian aid -- food, > medical, infrastructure -- not just in Afghanistan (after we used them to > fight our proxy war with the USSR, we left their country and people in a > shambles when it was over) but in all Arab and Muslim countries where needed, > buying good will throughout the world (our current aid is roughly 10 cents > for every $100 of GNP as opposed to other major industrialized nations who > give roughly 20-30 cents for every $100 of GNP) which will build a much > stronger coalition against terrorism than just political intimidation. This > will alleviate some of the desperate conditions that breed terrorism, as > opposed to ineffectual broadband military action that can't help but to > enrage currently moderate Muslims and will only foment more terrorism. > Concurrently with large scale humanitarian aid, use special forces in highly > focused covert action to track down Al Qaeda cells around the world. For something like the Marshall plan to work there would have to be a willingness of the participants to be helped and that is not present. Those people do not want our help. They want us out, period. Also, the simplistic statement give peace a chance makes a great song but it is not realistic in this setting, as Mary said. Those countries and the governments, people, etc. in them would have to have the same kind of mindset that we do for that to work. They don't. Infrastructure. To help them build an infrastructure would require us to be even more involved in the region than we are. They would never allow it. Medical assistance. The same thing. They would never allow it. As for our proxy war with the USSR, I suppose the alternative would have been better which would have been to give no aid at all and allow the Soviets to completely overrun the country. I watched a documentary on this country last week. It has always been in a great state of turmoil, to say that we are responsible for leaving their country and their people in a state of turmoil is simply not accurate, or true. We were not responsible for going into Afghanistan after that conflict and doing anything. The moral thing to do. Maybe, but it was not our job to do so. What did we do? Hmmm. We helped them kick the Soviets out of their country which is what they wanted in the first place. I would say that their own mismanagement of their country and the Soviets left their country in a shambles, the U.S. most certainly did not do it. As far as the GNP, there are countries in the Arab world that are filthy rich and we are supposed to be the ones who give all of the aid, infrastructure, medical, etc. Hogwash. We are not responsible for the "desperate" conditions in the Middle East. They are. The terrorists have made it very clear and concise that we are in a region that they don't believe we have any right to be in. That is one of the reasons for their hate. They do not want us in Saudi Arabia, or anywhere else. Even though the Saudi government has welcomed us. They state very clearly that they have gone to Afghanistan to take it over and make it the base for their terrorist actions. Where is the outrage for all of those native Afghanis who are were being starved and brutalized before this action was even started? The starvation, children dying because of no medical care, refugee problem : did not begin with our involvement. Hmm. Marshall plan.. Syria. Nope. Iraq. Nope. Iran. Nope. Palestinians. Nope. Lebanon. Nope. And why? They want Israel out. Not likely to happen. Pressure Israel and Palestine for a real peace accord. Pressure them with what? What could we possibly do to overcome such hatred, that has been going on since the beginning of time. As long as Israel is there, the hate will continue. I suppose we could completely disavow Israel and tell them they are on their own. That might do the trick but don't think it is going to happen. Highly focused covert action? Isn't that what we are doing now? Isn't there a chance of civilian casualties in a highly focused covert action? Or would a few civilian casualties be more acceptable than a larger number? We could ask them to turn themselves in peacefully and explain that we were going to help them with their infrastructure, medical care, etc. I would imagine that they would respond in kind and we could be great friends. Ain't gonna happen. So what will be do? We need to catch them and bring them to justice or if for no other reason than just to make sure they don't kill anymore innocent people. How will we achieve that and make sure, completely and with no chance of failure, that no one is hurt, that no one is negatively affected? The concept of peace put to them with an olive branch extended, a John Lennon tune playing in the background, a barbeque, our hands extended, the Marshall Plan? I only wish it were that simple. Mack ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2001 #521 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?