From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2001 #517 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Friday, October 26 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 517 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Turbulent Indigo time signature [BigWaltinSF@aol.com] Re: raotflmao (njc?) [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: weather njc ["Dolphie Bush" ] Re: Pro-American, JMDL? njc ["Brenda J. Walker" ] RE: weather njc ["Wally Kairuz" ] RE: New Joni paintings from LA Times Magazine ["Deb Messling" ] Re: Pro-American, JMDL? njc ["Dolphie Bush" ] RE: JMDL Digest V2001 #516 ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Surrender (njc) ["Dolphie Bush" ] Ben Folds & Ryan Adams RULE MY WORLD! (njc) [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] RE: Pro-American, JMDL? njc ["Deb Messling" ] RE: FIRE/"The Shadow University" (njc) ["Deb Messling" ] Naming Sites (njc) [BigWaltinSF@aol.com] Re: always wise bob NJC ["Sharon L. Buffington" ] Re: Pro-American, JMDL? njc [Vince Lavieri ] Joni on Bravo??? [BigWaltinSF@aol.com] Translator wanted - njc [Les Irvin ] Re: Many examples of censorship (njc) ["Kakki" ] Re: Pro-American, JMDL? njc ["Dolphie Bush" ] Re: Joni on Bravo??? ["Dolphie Bush" ] Re: Pro-American, JMDL? njc [Vince Lavieri ] More on Joni painting - Maltese Cross ["Kakki" ] Re: Naming the Supremes njc [Vince Lavieri ] Re: Many examples of censorship (njc) ["Brenda J. Walker" ] Geriatric rockers..... NJC ["hell" ] Re: Reworked Joni Tribute Part 3 ["hell" ] RE: foolish bob NJC ["Wally Kairuz" ] Subject: Re: Pro-American, JMDL? njc ["Kate Bennett" Has the joni list ever talked about the time signature(s) in the song Turbulent Indigo? What the heck is it? It shifts, or I'm imagining things. It seems like it floats between 4/4, sometimes 2/4, sometimes 3/4.... is it 4/4 with a 5/4 measure or two thrown in there every now and then to throw off our expectations?< I'm glad it's not just me who gets cunfused by some of her time signatures. I finally decided in the case of this one (TI) that it was generally 3/4 with an occasionally dropped beat (say down from 3/4 to 2/4), but only the Jon'ster would know, I suppose. The two that still stump *me* are "Stay in Touch" and "Love Puts On a New Face" on TtT. Anyone have those figured out? Warmly, Walt ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 21:06:04 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: raotflmao (njc?) In a message dated 10/25/01 7:51:35 PM, BigWaltinSF writes: << That is absolutely the biggest laugh I've had in as long as I can remember. >> Keep reading, Walt. Wait till you see what Jimmy says about having Kilauren, Larry and Joni sit in front of him! Glad you got a laugh. Take care, --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 20:04:13 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: Re: weather njc Hey Sharon, I was talking about Mary Richards and like to pretend that she, Lou, Ted, and the gang are all still there. And that Rhoda has come home. It was such a simple time and everything seemed right and good. Silly, I know. ha ha My friend Lynn lives in Minneapolis proper but I don't know the address. Haven't visited him and won't I fear. He loves it. Mack ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 18:10:54 -0700 From: "Brenda J. Walker" Subject: Re: Pro-American, JMDL? njc On 25 Oct 2001, at 19:57, Dolphie Bush wrote: > Brenda wrote: > > Criticism of our > > government and what it is doing or has done is not anti-American. Nor is > it > > necessarily anti-war. In fact to me, it is distinctly American to > criticize > > and question our government. > > I would disagree. I think that's very unfortunate. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 20:12:44 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: Re: Pro-American, JMDL? njc And that is reciprocal. Mack - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brenda J. Walker" To: "Dolphie Bush" Cc: "joni" Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 8:10 PM Subject: Re: Pro-American, JMDL? njc > > > On 25 Oct 2001, at 19:57, Dolphie Bush wrote: > > > Brenda wrote: > > > > Criticism of our > > > government and what it is doing or has done is not anti-American. Nor is > > it > > > necessarily anti-war. In fact to me, it is distinctly American to > > criticize > > > and question our government. > > > > I would disagree. > > I think that's very unfortunate. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 20:25:14 -0500 From: "Sharon L. Buffington" Subject: Re: Pro-American, JMDL? njc Serving tea and crumpets to Mack....sitting down at the table...now Mack...it is always good to question. Not enough people questioned the Nazi's and I lost family because of that. I am not in any way comparing the US to Nazi's but it is a good thing for us to question whether bombing the Taliban really knocks out the 'enemy'. Do the Taliban just live in one part of Afghanistan? And what about the millions of innocent people who have been forced to cross into Pakistan? I present these questions to you because there is no one solution...no easy answer. But it is always good to question. My republican parents raised me and my sister to do just that. And believe me ...my Dad and I had many arguments over the viet nam war. But I have always remembered him telling me "Question everything and do so respectfully but do it, even if I do not agree with you I will always respect your right to do so". When you first joined the JMDL I remember you stating that you stood for unconditional love. I believe the other JMDL people who agree or disagree with what the US is doing in Afghanistan respect the right to state different and varied opinions. Placing a slice of freshly baked lemon bread on Mack's plate... and continuing....discussion of our history be it sullied or pure as the driven snow is what our democracy is all about Mack. :) Peace.....Sharon...glad she has a warm home...and good friends and a loving family. NP Lyle Lovett Dolphie Bush wrote: > > Brenda wrote: > > Criticism of our > > government and what it is doing or has done is not anti-American. Nor is > it > > necessarily anti-war. In fact to me, it is distinctly American to > criticize > > and question our government. > > I would disagree. The consistent and relentless postings here about the > United States, both present and past, in the negative, I feel, are > anti-american. They are most certainly not pro-american. Not supportive of > the actions we are taking and, for that matter, have seen little to any > support for anything that the United States has ever done. The constant > barrage about what bullies we are in the world scope, our dastardly and > covert behavior around the globe are most certainly anti-american > sentiments. I have seen posts here that pretty much run the gamut worldwide > pertaining to all the areas where the U.S. has been wrong and very little to > say that we are a fine country that, regardless of the mistakes that we have > made, that has done more good for this world than any country that has ever > existed. I see nothing wrong with criticizing the government if we are > trying to make it better and working within to do so but I see no difference > between many of the attitudes expressed here and those of many people in > foreign countries; and they are most clearly anti-american. Also, how can > one continuously write about what we are doing wrong currently and then say > they are not anti-war sentiments? They clearly are anti-war for we are at > war. They cannot be both, have to be one or the other. Either one is for > the war or against the war. Pro or con. This is not a sit on the fence > issue. > > > > Does being a pacifist make you anti-American? Not in my book. > > I agree but have yet to hear from anyone here just exactly what they would > do in this situation to solve the problem, other than complaining about and > deriding the people who are trying to do something about it. > > am not anti-American or anti-war, but I am definitely critical and will > > continue to be because we can do better. > > I would love to hear just what we should do in this situation that would be > better, and still solve the problem. > > American does not mean blindly supporting the American government," said > > Fadi Kiblawi, 20, a Kuwaiti-born Palestinian who went to high school in > St. > > Louis and is among the peace group leaders. "It means using your civil > rights > > to say what you think America should be." > > I think it involves a lot more than saying what you think America should be, > like getting out there and making it what it should be. And that not only > includes getting involved and changing policy we do not like but supporting > those in charge in a time of crisis, like now. I suppose we could serve tea > and crumpets to the terrorists and beg them to leave us alone but I don't > think that would work and it flat out doesn't matter what we do for as long > as we are in the Middle East,(and I am not even convinced that leaving there > would suit them) which we will always be unless we decide to leave and let > them destroy Israel, which they most surely would do, they are going to > continue to attack us and do everything that they can to destroy us. It is > us or them, as far as I am concerned, and I am not willing to try to smoke a > peace pipe with crazy fanatical individuals who just blew up 5,000 > Americans. > These people have no shame and all the good will in the world is never going > to change that. > > Mack ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 21:26:31 -0400 From: "Suze Cameron" Subject: Surrender (njc) Mack! You must surrender to the power of the lemon bread. Everyone at Topsfield did! To quote Willy the Shake...East is East and West is West and never the twain shall meet... Even though we all may not have the same political views we certainly possess great taste in music. Lemon bread, fresh honey.....oooohhhh! Sue Make a difference, help support the relief efforts in the U.S. http://clubs.lycos.com/live/events/september11.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 22:26:36 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: weather njc oh sharon, love of my life: lemon bread!!!!! blustery winds!!!!! the best honey i've ever ever ever had!!!!!! your smile!!!!! can i live in your planet please? as to the weather here, it's coming. it's round the corner. murderous buenos aires summer will be here any day now. and that will be the end of wally K. something's been telling me i won't survive this one. this year i am totally unequipped to go through summer, the dog days, the nightmarishly hot hours, days, weeks. the loneliness of summer. i just don't have the moral fortitude. wallyK ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 21:26:22 -0400 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: RE: New Joni paintings from LA Times Magazine Didn't the director Robert Altman just say something very similar? Certainly it's not a complete answer, but interesting to think about. If America is seen to be exporting violence via film and music, it's certainly not because we are more violent than the rest of the world. If Belgium were the film capital of the world, Belgium would be exporting violence via film. Violence sells, icky as that is. I was really afraid she was gonna blame it on Santeria, which would be just too weird. > I don't want to shortcut her. In relation to the bombing of the WTC she > attributed the cause to "America's exportation of violence in films and > music." She did not elaborate on that. I personally found it not a > complete explanation, but after pondering about it for awhile, I could see > validity in her point. - ----------------------------------- Deb Messling =^..^= - ----------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 20:40:04 -0500 From: "Sharon L. Buffington" Subject: Re: Surrender (njc) And Suze knows her priorities...well except for keeping her ass dry when getting into certain vehicles... Mack...have some lemon bread and give us a hug.... Suze Cameron wrote: > > Mack! > > You must surrender to the power of the > lemon bread. Everyone at Topsfield did! > > To quote Willy the Shake...East is East and West is West and never the twain shall meet... > > Even though we all may not have the same political views we certainly possess great taste in music. > > Lemon bread, fresh honey.....oooohhhh! > > Sue > > Make a difference, help support the relief efforts in the U.S. > http://clubs.lycos.com/live/events/september11.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 20:41:38 -0500 From: "Sharon L. Buffington" Subject: Re: weather njc Wally...you are too sweet...you can come here to my Queen Anne home...you would fit right in...and freeze your sweet ass off if you went outside...you are welcome here any time. :) Serving her sweet Wally some lemon bread..... Wally Kairuz wrote: > > oh sharon, love of my life: lemon bread!!!!! blustery winds!!!!! the best > honey i've ever ever ever had!!!!!! your smile!!!!! can i live in your > planet please? > as to the weather here, it's coming. it's round the corner. murderous buenos > aires summer will be here any day now. and that will be the end of wally K. > something's been telling me i won't survive this one. this year i am totally > unequipped to go through summer, the dog days, the nightmarishly hot hours, > days, weeks. the loneliness of summer. i just don't have the moral > fortitude. > wallyK ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 20:32:14 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: Re: Pro-American, JMDL? njc Sharon wrote: > Serving tea and crumpets to Mack....sitting down at the table...now > Mack...it is always good to question. Not enough people questioned the > Nazi's and I lost family because of that. I am not in any way comparing > the US to Nazi's but it is a good thing for us to question whether > bombing the Taliban really knocks out the 'enemy'. Sharon, I now officially love you and thank you for the wide grin that just creased my face. That is exactly my point Sharon. We should have questioned the Nazis and, thank goodness, we did more than that. In comparison, since you brought it up, I am sure there were very many innocent Germans killed in that war and the thought makes me very sad but how else would we now be living in a free society? We can sit back and question and debate and worry if we are doing the right thing until they take the croquet mallet, (while we are playing croquet after the crumpets and tea which they gladly ingested), and bash us in the head with it for making them play a game that is not to their liking. The Great Satan. , > > Do the Taliban just live in one part of Afghanistan? And what about the > millions of innocent people who have been forced to cross into Pakistan? The people in Afghanistan have been starving ever since the Taliban took over and, no doubt, would have continued to do so. > > I present these questions to you because there is no one solution...no > easy answer. But it is always good to question. My republican parents > raised me and my sister to do just that. And believe me ...my Dad and I > had many arguments over the viet nam war. But I have always remembered > him telling me "Question everything and do so respectfully but do it, > even if I do not agree with you I will always respect your right to do > so". As far as being respectful, I do try and do not seem to not be so. I, however, do not see that some of the things said to Kakki were respectful and that is why I entered this forum in the first place. Guess I get over protective sometimes but should know she needs no help from me. > > When you first joined the JMDL I remember you stating that you stood for > unconditional love. I believe the other JMDL people who agree or > disagree with what the US is doing in Afghanistan respect the right to > state different and varied opinions. And that is exactly what I did Sharon. This is exactly the point of what goes on here. I have never once told someone not to state their opinion but when someone states an opinion such as this, supporting what we are doing there, we are made to feel as if we said something wrong. I said nothing wrong. > > Placing a slice of freshly baked lemon bread on Mack's plate... > And thank you very much, it is delicious. > and continuing....discussion of our history be it sullied or pure as the > driven snow is what our democracy is all about Mack. :) > I won't even get into that. :Peace back at you. Mack ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 18:24:19 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Subject: Re: Political views (NJC) Just want to say, Hey Michael Yarbrough, it is nice having you back & reading your always intelligent remarks! ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 18:24:21 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: JMDL Digest V2001 #516 >>>I don't necessarily know about the popularity or unpopularity of being Pro-American on this site but there have been many, many posts expressing anti-american sentiment here; criticism about what our government is doing now, and in the past. <<< i am critical of what our govt is doing now, & some of what it has done in the past. This does not make me anti-american !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 20:41:18 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: Re: Surrender (njc) Right on Suze. Mack ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 21:45:29 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Ben Folds & Ryan Adams RULE MY WORLD! (njc) << It was Ben Folds Five, referring to the front man whose name is Ben Folds, and his group of four. They had a hit single a few years back with "Brick". Since then he has dropped the group and is now just Ben Folds. >> Actually it was Ben and his group of TWO additional. That gives you a sense of his warped sense of humor. Ben plays the piano, and I mean he PLAYS it. Think Billy Joel/Elton John/Joe Jackson/George Gershwin/Fred Simon all rolled into one, plus originality to spill over! "Brick" introduced him to the public, but as he played heavily in the NC Triangle, my sister turned me on to him early on. The BF5 put out 3 "official" records, all of which are wonderful and contain songs that are funny, raucous, poignant, and irreverent, some all at the same time. His solo "Rockin' The Suburbs" is remarkably good. Instantly accesible melodies, strong musicianship, and an original sound because it's rock and roll with no guitars - piano, bass, and drums. And as if the melodies aren't enough to win you over, he writes a damn fine lyric like "Carrying Cathy" or the very touching "Fred Jones Pt. 2". Or introduces you to "Zak without a C" and "Sara without an H". What a thrill to hear such originality in a soundalike world! Anybody who thinks today's music sucks should get it. I guess the reason that folks like Ben and Jonatha aren't HUGE stars is that there's not many like them, and it's much easier for the starmaker machinery to find as many Christinas, Britneys, and Boy Bands as they want. But Ben Folds is the real deal. I had it on non-stop play until I got this Ryan Adams, which is every bit as good. I'm in heaven. Now, if you'll excuse me, Ryan's singing "Enemy Fire". I gotta play air guitar. Life....for the moment...is very good. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 21:46:54 -0400 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: RE: Pro-American, JMDL? njc I'm one of 'em, but I actually think there have been a few others. I can't quite get used to myself in a pro-war mode, because I've been a liberal peacenik all my life and I STILL can't stand Bush. I have always been extremely ideological, but I can sum up my new ideology as Definitely Against Getting Killed By Terrorists. I guess I can relate to my in-laws who always were and remain liberal and progressive in every way, but who favored war when the Nazis threatened. > I can > only remember > three posters who have expressed support for the current actions > and that is > myself, Kakki, and one other poster. > - ----------------------------------- Deb Messling =^..^= - ----------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 21:53:43 -0400 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: RE: FIRE/"The Shadow University" (njc) I can personally attest to one instance in which a Lehigh University (Bethlehem, PA) campus bus was asked to remove an American flag for fear that that it would offend non-American students. That policy was almost immediately reversed and the poor confused bureaucrat who ordered it wrote a letter of apology to the newspaper. I can also report an instance of an anti-war march organized by East Stroudsburg University students being physically disrupted by pro-war students. The university officials, to their credit, stepped in to protect the anti-war folks. > "No one has commented on the students on a number of campuses > being banned from flying American flags, putting up signs that say > "Proud to > be an American," and having pro-American rallies. This is more my point > than anything - the either subtle or overt control of students personal > beliefs, etc." > > Kakki, I'm honestly curious, and you've mentioned this several times > now. Do you have any idea how many times these instances have occurred? - ----------------------------------- Deb Messling =^..^= - ----------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 22:00:03 EDT From: BigWaltinSF@aol.com Subject: Artists Joni Likes... (sjc) Hi, all, I'm still a week or so behind and still plowing through the digests, but I believe someone asked what young(er) artists Joni liked... I'm almost certain she's spoken highly of Bjork at least once, although at this point, I don't know how "new" or "young" one would have to be to qualify. Certainly back in the '70's she at least once complimented Steely Dan -- even during a period of time when they were somewhat scornful of her music. There must be others... Warmly, Walt ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 19:02:28 -0700 From: "Brenda J. Walker" Subject: RE: FIRE/"The Shadow University" (njc) On 25 Oct 2001, at 21:53, Deb Messling wrote: > I can personally attest to one instance in which a Lehigh University > (Bethlehem, PA) campus bus was asked to remove an American flag for fear > that that it would offend non-American students. That policy was almost > immediately reversed and the poor confused bureaucrat who ordered it wrote a > letter of apology to the newspaper. > That is also one of the five cases listed on the FIRE web site. Brenda n.p.: Joni - "River" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 22:15:12 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: always wise bob NJC Stephen Epstein wrote: > Bob, I love your report card! I wish I still had mine, I wonder what it > would have said. Stares out the window alot? Does anyone else still have > their report card comments? I have all my report cards. I got good citizenship highest ratings (perfect high scores across the board) every year for 12 straight years (I skipped a year in school, so only did 12 years K-12, not 13 years.) Also got talking in comments for most of those years. Also high marks for working and playing well with others and sharing. But good citizenship, certainly, was my premier thing. Just goes to show... something. (the Rev) Vince ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 22:17:29 EDT From: BigWaltinSF@aol.com Subject: Naming Sites (njc) Hi, all, Jamie posted: >I don't know whether or not any of you have ever read The Hobbit, but even if you haven't you, like all of us, have a hobbit name. Go here to find out what yours is: http://www.chriswetherell.com/hobbit/< I just wanted to add that there's a site (I'll find out the address and post it -- unless one of you knows it) called something like "The OZ [TV show on Showtime, I think] Prison Bitch Name Site" which is really funny, too. How do these things work? Are they completely random, or is it based on something like (letter) length of names or phonemic similarity or what? Warmly, Walt ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 21:25:48 -0500 From: "Sharon L. Buffington" Subject: Re: always wise bob NJC I was always sort of naughty but smart. Vince Lavieri wrote: > > Stephen Epstein wrote: > > > Bob, I love your report card! I wish I still had mine, I wonder what it > > would have said. Stares out the window alot? Does anyone else still have > > their report card comments? > > I have all my report cards. > > I got good citizenship highest ratings (perfect high scores across the board) > every year for 12 straight years (I skipped a year in school, so only did 12 > years K-12, not 13 years.) > > Also got talking in comments for most of those years. > > Also high marks for working and playing well with others and sharing. > > But good citizenship, certainly, was my premier thing. > > Just goes to show... something. > > (the Rev) Vince ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 21:26:55 -0500 From: "Sharon L. Buffington" Subject: Re: weather njc Oh THAT Mary....she did wear a beret you know! :) Peace.....Sharon NP Ella Dolphie Bush wrote: > > Hey Sharon, I was talking about Mary Richards and like to pretend that she, > Lou, Ted, and the gang are all still there. And that Rhoda has come home. > It was such a simple time and everything seemed right and good. Silly, I > know. ha ha > > My friend Lynn lives in Minneapolis proper but I don't know the address. > Haven't visited him and won't I fear. He loves it. > > Mack ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 22:33:37 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: Pro-American, JMDL? njc "Brenda J. Walker" wrote: > > Criticism of our > > > government and what it is doing or has done is not anti-American. Nor is > > it > > > necessarily anti-war. In fact to me, it is distinctly American to > > criticize > > > and question our government. The reply was: > > I would disagree. > Brenda responded: > > I think that's very unfortunate. I am with Brenda. If criticizing the government was un-American, then George W Bush should have been thrown in jail for his last campaign - he criticized the incumbent president, he questioned the government. That is absurd of course - because Brenda, you are so right, it is the American way to criticizes, to question, and to work through the system. Thus we the Constitution. Thus we have elections. That is what makes America work, what makes America great. Un-American to be antiwar? Hardly. Any reading of American history will have discussion of ample dissent in every era; dissent against the Mexican-American war, the riots in New York in the 1860s protesting the draft in the Civil war, etc. It is not wrong and not illegal to question our government because this is America. Now in China, in the old Soviet Union, in any number of any repressive regimes, it is considered unpatriotic to not agree with the government. A jailable offense in many places. Thank God, and I mean that, that this country stands for the freedom of people to disagree and dissent and to criticize and to seek change and make change happen through the system, through elections, through the constitutional process. For this, for these reasons, for the wisdom of the Constitution of the United States and its Bill of Rights, for these reasons, I fly my flag high and sing, "my country, tis of thee, sweet land of liberty..." (the Rev) Vince, flying both his freak flag and his American flag high PS An interesting way to measure patriotism: have you ever missed voting in any election? Have you ever done voter registration? Who can name without pause the name of their two senators and their representative in the House and the nine justices (well, the 4 justices and 5 injustices, a little joke there) on the Supreme Court? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 22:43:00 EDT From: BigWaltinSF@aol.com Subject: Joni on Bravo??? Hi, all, *Still* trying to catch up with the digests. Somebody posted something about seeing Joni on Bravo at the moment of his/her writing (dated the 21st, maybe). There was no follow-up. What appearance/show was it? Or was it just a passing reference? just curious, walt ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 20:52:03 -0600 From: Les Irvin Subject: Translator wanted - njc Is anyone out there able to translate Finnish (or maybe it's Swedish??) into English? I have a Joni article from "Soundi" Magazine, published in Helsinki, that I'd like translated. Please contact me off-list if you can help. Thanks! Les ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 19:30:04 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Many examples of censorship (njc) Brenda and Mary asked for more examples of where display of flags and/or patriotism or opinion has been censored or have been attempted to be censored in recent weeks. Personally I have heard many reports of such incidents coming from around the country ever since Sept. 11th. Many of the reports I heard on the radio (one of the Clear Channel music stations) so I cannot go back now and provide proof of those reports. Also, many of the news reports I read are no longer available. However, today I did some searches and found a whole new crop just within the past week. Here are some links: "Patriotic Banners Coming Down," North County Times, 10/23/01 http://www.nctimes.net/news/2001/20011023/51924.html "City of Los Angeles Sued Over Bid To Ban Patriotic Mural," ABC News, 10/23/01 http://www.abcnews.go.com/wire/US/ap20011023_1796.html "SGA Denounces Removal of Patriotic Symbols," Central Michigan Life, 10/24/01 http://www.cm-life.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2001/10/24/3bd63a75540ef "University of Censorship Fall Semester," San Francisco Chronicle, 10/11/01 http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2001/10/11/ED220481.DTL "Daily Cals Stolen Replaced with Protestor Flyers," The Daily Californian, 10/25/01 http://www.dailycal.com/article.asp?id=6816 Below are some other articles along this topic generally: "Is Pride the Same as Arrogance?", Christian Science Monitor, 10/17/01 http://www.csmonitor.com/cgi-bin/getasciiarchive?script/2001/10/17/p14s2.txt "When Viewpoints Clash", Christian Science Monitor, 10/9/01 http://www.csmonitor.com/cgi-bin/getasciiarchive?script/2001/10/09/p12s1.txt ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 22:13:15 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: Re: Pro-American, JMDL? njc Vince wrote: > > PS An interesting way to measure patriotism: have you ever missed voting in any > election? Have you ever done voter registration? Who can name without pause > the name of their two senators and their representative in the House and the > nine justices (well, the 4 justices and 5 injustices, a little joke there) on > the Supreme Court? I don't know where patriotism came into this discussion and hardly think that knowing this information is any gauge of it. Kay Baily Hutchinson Phil Gramm Charles Stenholm Vote in every election. A. Scalia J.P. Stevens R. Ginsberg C. Thomas Kennedy Souter O'Connor Rehnquist Breyer. Guess that makes me a patriot. %$$# mack ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 23:16:36 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: Many examples of censorship? (njc) The link to Central Michigan caught my eye, about an hour from where I live, and I was amazed that there would be any problems with American flags in Michigan anywhere, and if there were, that it was not big news out here because a lot of people here go to CMU. As I read the Central Michigan article linked below, it appears that they are protesting "condemned university departments for allegedly ordering the removal of patriotic symbols from residence hall doors Monday." Allegedly. And reading the whole article - which is not well written by the student writer - seems to say that this protest is about alleged incidents at other schools, Texas A&M being named, and that situation resolved. As far as flags in central and western Michigan, and at Grand Valley State University where I take classes on Thursday, flags are everywhere. 40-50% of all homes, and 75-80% of all businesses have flags up, and my home and where I work are included in those, and an ever increasing number of cars have flags, maybe up to 50% right now, both of cars included. The student parking lot at GVSU is a sea of flags, window flags as well as decals. Wherever I have traveled in Michigan I see flags everywhere; you might recall I took Gage to the UM game against Western and we brought flags, two of us amongst tens of thousands with flags (the attendance that day being 108,000). I was in Minnesota last weekend and was struck by the relative absence of flags displayed at homes and businesses, certainly a lack by Michigan standards. The cars however had a flags. For whatever it is worth. http://www.cm-life.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2001/10/24/3bd63a75540ef ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 23:17:59 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Naming the Supremes njc In a message dated 10/25/01 9:34:54 PM, revrvl@chartermi.net writes: << Who can name without pause <> the nine justices <> on the Supreme Court? >> Gee, Vince, I tried to name them all, but I think my love of music kept getting in the way. Oh, well -- here's my sorry attempt: Chief Justice William Ronstadt Stephen Bishop Clarence Clayton Thomas Ruth Bayer Sager J. D. Souther Sineaid Day O'Connor Anthony "Dead" Kennedys John Paul "Cat" Stevens Antonin "La" Scalia Do I win anything? --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 22:18:45 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: Re: Naming the Supremes njc You, Bob, are a patriot of the highest degree. mack ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 20:00:14 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Many examples of censorship? (njc) Vince, I'm glad to hear there is so much red, whote and blue flying in Michigan. There are many flags displayed everywhere here in L.A. on cars, houses, apartment buildings and in many store windows. I was only providing examples requested by Brenda and Mary of where people on college campuses and some other places are being formally banned by displaying patriotic symbols or expressing certain opinion. This derived out of our discussion as to whether certain viewpoints have been stifled over time. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 22:26:52 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: Re: Joni on Bravo??? I saw the original post Walt and turned the station to Bravo but it wasn't on here. Must have been a regional thing. Mack ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 23:30:45 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: Pro-American, JMDL? njc Dolphie Bush wrote: > > > Kay Baily Hutchinson > Phil Gramm > Charles Stenholm > > Vote in every election. > > A. Scalia > J.P. Stevens > R. Ginsberg > C. Thomas > Kennedy > Souter > O'Connor > Rehnquist > Breyer. > > Guess that makes me a patriot. > You nailed them all! For me, Debbie Stabenow, Carl Levin, and Dave Camp, vote in every election and run in some of them, and no point in repeating the list of SC members. That to me makes you a patriot. When the % of voters in this country is under 50% in many places, that is disgusting and insult to our Constitution and those who have fought for our country. There is no excuse for not voting, in my opinion, and my praise to everyone who votes. Sometimes when people start mouthing off about this or that, I ask them if they voted in the last election, and if they say no, then I answer that I will listen to them when they vote. That is just a very key point with me, as you can see. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 20:06:34 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: More on Joni painting - Maltese Cross Regarding Joni's garden 9/11 painting - I looked at the painting again on the JM.com site (a very good resolution there) and the cross on the book is blue surrounded by red. This type of cross is a simplified version of the Maltese Cross. I found a couple of websites below which provide regarding it. Very interesting and arguably related in some ways to 9/11 events. Kakki http://www.homeusers.prestel.co.uk/church/oosj/cross.htm http://www.ashlandfire.com/maltese.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 23:36:22 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: Naming the Supremes njc Bob, sorry, only 8 out of 9. It is Antonin La Scala. Sorry. I sure do think that Anthony Dead Kennedys and Sineaid Day O'Conner would be great improvements, but I loved Justice John Paul Cat Stevens!!! Murphycopy@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 10/25/01 9:34:54 PM, revrvl@chartermi.net writes: > > << Who can name without pause <> the nine justices <> on the > Supreme Court? >> > > Gee, Vince, I tried to name them all, but I think my love of music kept > getting in the way. Oh, well -- here's my sorry attempt: > > Chief Justice William Ronstadt > > Stephen Bishop > > Clarence Clayton Thomas > > Ruth Bayer Sager > > J. D. Souther > > Sineaid Day O'Connor > > Anthony "Dead" Kennedys > > John Paul "Cat" Stevens > > Antonin "La" Scalia > > Do I win anything? > > --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 20:46:56 -0700 From: "Brenda J. Walker" Subject: Re: Many examples of censorship (njc) Thanks for posting the links which are relative to college campuses. The Central Michigan one was one of the five on the FIRE site and from what I can tell the administration is obstinate about reversing their decision. I find that to be reprehensible. It's good to see that the Student Government has chosen to and can speak out against it. I hadn't seen the Berkeley stuff but seeing as how Berkeley is another planet, I'm not surprised! I'll refrain from any further comment until after I've read "The Shadow University" because I want to stay on point with our original discussion. Best, Brenda n.p.: Orbital - "Illuminate" On 25 Oct 2001, at 19:30, Kakki wrote: > Brenda and Mary asked for more examples of where display of flags and/or > patriotism or opinion has been censored or have been attempted to be > censored in recent weeks. Personally I have heard many reports of such > incidents coming from around the country ever since Sept. 11th. Many of the > reports I heard on the radio (one of the Clear Channel music stations) so I > cannot go back now and provide proof of those reports. Also, many of the news > reports I read are no longer available. However, today I did some searches and > found a whole new crop just within the past week. Here are some links: > > "Patriotic Banners Coming Down," North County Times, 10/23/01 > > http://www.nctimes.net/news/2001/20011023/51924.html > > "City of Los Angeles Sued Over Bid To Ban Patriotic Mural," ABC News, > 10/23/01 > > http://www.abcnews.go.com/wire/US/ap20011023_1796.html > > "SGA Denounces Removal of Patriotic Symbols," Central Michigan Life, > 10/24/01 > > http://www.cm-life.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2001/10/24/3bd63a75540ef > > "University of Censorship Fall Semester," San Francisco Chronicle, 10/11/01 > > http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2001/10/11/ED220481.DTL > > "Daily Cals Stolen Replaced with Protestor Flyers," The Daily Californian, > 10/25/01 > > http://www.dailycal.com/article.asp?id=6816 > > Below are some other articles along this topic generally: > > "Is Pride the Same as Arrogance?", Christian Science Monitor, 10/17/01 > > http://www.csmonitor.com/cgi-bin/getasciiarchive?script/2001/10/17/p14s2.txt > > "When Viewpoints Clash", Christian Science Monitor, 10/9/01 > > http://www.csmonitor.com/cgi-bin/getasciiarchive?script/2001/10/09/p12s1.txt ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 21:05:35 -0700 From: "Brenda J. Walker" Subject: Re: Pro-American, JMDL? njc On 25 Oct 2001, at 22:33, Vince Lavieri wrote: > PS An interesting way to measure patriotism: have you ever missed voting in any > election? Have you ever done voter registration? Who can name without pause > the name of their two senators and their representative in the House and the > nine justices (well, the 4 justices and 5 injustices, a little joke there) on > the Supreme Court? Barbara Boxer Dianne Feinstein Jane Harman (The ladies are in house! : ) I've never missed an election. My dad served in the army only to return to his home town in the Jim Crow south where folks were physically blocked from the polling place. So every time I punch the card I feel like I'm honoring him. Brenda n.p.: Afro Celt Sound System - "Colossus" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 17:33:58 +1300 From: "hell" Subject: Re: foolish bob NJC Kate wrote: > Bob, I love your report card! I wish I still had mine, I wonder what it > would have said. Stares out the window alot? Does anyone else still have > their report card comments? Oh boy, you're going to regret this! I've saved all my school report cards (or at least my mother did). Some of the more "colourful" comments were: Primer 4 (age 6): She is pleasant and co-operative but tends to "boss" the rest of her group. Standard 3 (age 9): She has a natural bounce and curiosity which helps place her in the above average category. This bounce, however, does sometimes get out of hand and distracts others. Form 3 (age 13): She has a tendency to be a little "smart" at times lately. Form 5 (age 15): She is sometimes a little too chatty and cheerful in class. Form 5 (age 15): She is a pleasant pupil but unfortunately is easily distracted in class. Hmmmm .... no evidence of any of that now is there?! Maybe a little too chatty....... Hell ____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Hell's Personal Photo Page: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/main/personal.htm Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://www.nbls.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 17:35:28 +1300 From: "hell" Subject: Geriatric rockers..... NJC I saw this in the NZ Herald this morning, and laughed quite loudly: "Former Rolling Stone bassman Bill Wyman qualified yesterday for an old-age pension and bus pass after turning 65. But there was no indication he would take up either. Wyman was celebrating his birthday on holiday with his wife, Suzanne Acosta, and their three children. Other Stones have a way to go to pension age. Mick Jagger is 58, Keith Richards is 57, Charlie Watts 60 and Ronnie Wood 54." Anyone feeling their age now? Hell ____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Hell's Personal Photo Page: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/main/personal.htm Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://www.nbls.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 17:39:16 +1300 From: "hell" Subject: Re: Reworked Joni Tribute Part 3 Ashara wrote: > On the question of how have your paintings changed since September 11th? Joni > says, "There were two wars in my life on September 11th. I broke up with my > boyfriend. He complained that I repeat myself too much, and I 'do' repeat > myself too much. Especially now because I'm writing my book, so I'm writing a > lot of my yarns in the oral tradition." She said she took a lot of pictures > with a paper camera on September 11th, and she saw a lot of figures in the > smoke. She started painting what she called "repetism," doing 5 double > images. She said by painting, it helped her to become emotionally detached. Thanks for reposting these, theybre ba blot beasier bto bread bnow (sorry, couldn't help myself)! I wish I'd been there - it must have been a wonderful evening. But I also saw the reference to writing her book, and wondered if I'd read it correctly? I'm glad to have it confirmed - I can see a "must-have" in every jmdlers Xmas stocking, for 2002 maybe?! Here's hoping, anyway! Hell ____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Hell's Personal Photo Page: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/main/personal.htm Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://www.nbls.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 01:34:31 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: foolish bob NJC baby, we all saw your ample bounce. that you still have. :-) wallyK - -----Mensaje original----- De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de hell Enviado el: Viernes, 26 de Octubre de 2001 01:34 a.m. Para: Kate Bennett; JMDL Asunto: Re: foolish bob NJC Hmmmm .... no evidence of any of that now is there?! Maybe a little too chatty....... Hell ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 22:25:56 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Subject: Re: Pro-American, JMDL? njc Mack wrote >>>I would disagree. The consistent and relentless postings here about the United States, both present and past, in the negative, I feel, are anti-american. They are most certainly not pro-american.<<<< Criticism of US foreign policy does not make someone anti-american. >>>I see nothing wrong with criticizing the government if we are trying to make it better and working within to do so<<< I agree. >>>I think it involves a lot more than saying what you think America should be, like getting out there and making it what it should be.<<< Yes it does. And that not only incudes getting involved and changing policy we do not like but supporting those in charge in a time of crisis, like now.<<< Yes, getting involved is important. It is also important to speak up against something that you do not believe in. That is what being an american is to me. ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 23:06:54 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: New Joni paintings from LA Times Magazine Deb wrote: > Didn't the director Robert Altman just say >something very similar? Yes, I seem to recall someone mentioning it. >Certainly it's not a complete answer, but >interesting to think about. It struck me out of left field at first, because there have been wars for centuries before the invention of film and the tranmission of music, but after I spent some time thinking about it, it just may be that Joni is thinking of one aspect that most everyone else may forget in the larger discussion. Here's another thought - in the past most violence in film was shown in a context of good vs. evil/good guy ultimately wins out over the bad guy so there was a moral to the story. However, for many years in the U.S. our films are either often filled with gratuitous violence or there is no good guy - just bad guys outblasting each other to no real purpose other than the "baddest" guy wins. I can imagine that the escalation of violence in music and films can desensitize some people to the point where they really can no longer concieve that the reality of violence is so much more horrifying than what they are seeing in the fantasy realm of a movie. Perhaps there is also an identification in people who are disturbed to begin with in achieving some kind of notoriety in being the "baddest" guy and going out with a bang. > I was really afraid she was gonna blame it on >Santeria, which would be just > too weird. Oh yeah, yeah ;-) No, nothing weird. Kakki ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2001 #517 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?