From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2001 #516 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Thursday, October 25 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 516 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Reworked Joni Tribute Part 1 [AsharaJM@aol.com] Re: Political views (NJC) ["Kakki" ] Reworked Joni Tribute Part 3 [AsharaJM@aol.com] Subject: Re: FIRE/ "The Shadow University" (njc) ["Kate Bennett" ] Yuppies (Absolutely NJC) ["Pitassi, Mary" ] Re: FIRE/ "The Shadow University" (njc) ["Brenda J. Walker" ] Re: NJC Translations ["Kakki" ] Re: NJC Translations [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Hillary Clinton (NJC) ["Brenda J. Walker" ] Pro-war and Peace Movements on Campus - NJC ["Brenda J. Walker" ] RE: JAG, and "jag" (NJC) ["Pitassi, Mary" ] Re: hilary clinton njc [Relayer211@aol.com] Re: JAG, and "jag" (NJC) ["Dolphie Bush" ] Re: JAG, and "jag" (NJC) ["Sharon L. Buffington" ] weather njc ["Dolphie Bush" ] JAG/food/credits (NJC) ["Pitassi, Mary" ] Re: A Few Notes From the Harbourfront Hommage [AsharaJM@aol.com] Re: Mr. Kratzman [AsharaJM@aol.com] Read Joni's "Walk of Fame" Story!!!!!!! [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Re: JAG/food/credits (NJC) ["Sharon L. Buffington" ] Re: Pro-American, JMDL? njc ["Brenda J. Walker" ] rebound (njc) ["Sue Cameron" ] raotflmao (njc?) [BigWaltinSF@aol.com] Re: weather njc ["Sharon L. Buffington" ] Re: rebound (njc) ["Sharon L. Buffington" ] Re: rebound (njc) ["Suze Cameron" ] Re: Pro-American, JMDL? njc ["Dolphie Bush" Subject: Re: Political views (NJC) Mary, >There are many things about you that I don't know, >political views are multifaceted, and I will try to always keep those >things in mind. To me the ideal would be for Americans to be multi-faceted instead of locked into certain platforms or ideologies. Depending on the issue, I am Liberal, or Libertarian Conservative. I vote for most all liberal initiatives or propositions, I have rarely voted for Republican candidates, and I am firmly for social welfare programs and environmental conservation. Maybe I'm a Conservative Democrat and just don't realize it yet! ;-) Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 16:41:57 EDT From: AsharaJM@aol.com Subject: Reworked Joni Tribute Part 3 On the question of how have your paintings changed since September 11th? Joni says, "There were two wars in my life on September 11th. I broke up with my boyfriend. He complained that I repeat myself too much, and I 'do' repeat myself too much. Especially now because I'm writing my book, so I'm writing a lot of my yarns in the oral tradition." She said she took a lot of pictures with a paper camera on September 11th, and she saw a lot of figures in the smoke. She started painting what she called "repetism," doing 5 double images. She said by painting, it helped her to become emotionally detached. Joni moved on by talking about her involvement with singing with an orchestra. She says when the orchestra starts to swell, it's like "surfing a pipeline," and pushes out a certain kind of performance. She adds that since there are such dramatic intricacies to her songs, you have to be more of an actress to sing them. She just wanted to sing and "sustain one nice mood" which she could obtain by singing the standards, and she was hooked. Denise tried to wrap up the evening by saying there was only 10 minutes left, and would she show us an example of her creative process? Joni then asked the audience if we would like to hear her improvise at the piano, or sing with the practice tapes of the orchestral background of the new CD's she is working on. Of course, everyone yelled, "BOTH!" and she was glad to oblige, although I think Denise was a little concerned of the late time. No one in the audience seemed quick to leave. We were more than content to stay as long as Joni would have us. She moved over to the piano, right where we were sitting, and it was truly a rare treat to witness her at the piano again. She improvised chords, much the way Paprika Plains was written, and we were spell bound. When she finished, she moved over to the stereo that was set up by her chair, and pushed a button. Joni explained that these were demo tapes, made by the orchestra for her to listen to at home. She said she often listens to them while walking around her house. The first strains of The Circle Game came through the speakers. I have to say that, for me, this is one song that I have heard too many times by too many people, and I was a little tired of it. But, when Joni opened her mouth to sing, it was fresh and new, and I listened to the words in a whole new light. She radiates beauty and her mature voice was perfect for this piece. Her whole being lights up when she sings, especially her own material. She "owns it" in a way that I find rare in singers. She has the ability to move through your soul when she sings, and speaks to you in her music as if she wrote the piece solely for you. She followed The Circle Game with Be Cool, a slowed down version of Borderline, taking a moment to explain that she had just received these tapes 6 days prior, as she kept looking to Larry (Klein) to help recognize which song it was, Cherokee Louise, Coyote, For the Roses, and ending with Slouching Towards Bethlehem. It was an incredible joy to watch her in the creative process. The evening came full circle as Mr. Kratzman, her 7th Grade teacher, came upon stage to present her with her World Leader award. We witnessed an intimate moment while Joni reconnected with the person she credits as being such a arge influence in her life, the teacher who gave her an A- instead of an A+ on a piece of poetry that she thought was very good. When asked why another boy received an A+, Mr. Kratzman answered, "because that is the best poem he will ever write." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 13:21:05 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Subject: Re: FIRE/ "The Shadow University" (njc) Interesting organization, FIRE. I think it is very good that this org exists, that it serves as a kind of watchdog to make sure that everyone's rights are being excercised in the university/college environment. Yes, institutions of higher learning can tend towards isolationism from the working world (the Ivory Tower)- some more than others, & some professors have very big egos & rule their classrooms in dictorial fashion. I have had some of these instructors & wanna be instructors (teaching assistants) who have been on sad little power trips for sure. I have also had many great teachers who are true educators...they know that the meaning of education is to draw out...not to hammer in! ;~) I read the intro to the Shadow University. I will be interested in hearing Brenda's review when she has read the book. While I don't doubt for a minute that there are injustices being committed in higher education (everywhere there are humans there are injustices), what is very hard for me to digest is that there is some overall (intentional? sinister?)value system at work in the myriad of colleges & universities across our country, such as is suggested here in the intro to the book: "Contrary to the expectations of most applicants, colleges and universities are not freer than the society at large. Indeed, they are less free, and that diminution is continuing apace. In a nation whose future depends upon an education in freedom, colleges and universities are teaching the values of censorship, self-censorship, and self-righteous abuse of power. Our institutions of higher education greet freshmen not as individuals on the threshold of adulthood, but as embodiments of group-identity, largely defined in terms of blood and history, who are to be infantilized at every turn..." So I guess what I would need to understand is what kind of research & bibliography went into the writing of this book to determine if what the authors are saying is a prevailing educational culture or just a list of specific injustices at a variety of institutions. ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 16:50:09 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: NJC Translations <> fwiw: "Gospel" translates to "Good News" "Bible" translates to "Book" Bob NP: Little Village, "Don't Go Away Mad" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 13:27:48 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Hillary Clinton (NJC) Mary, what I reported so vaguely is just about how vaguely I read it in news reports about the booing. I really don't know any other details. What I was probably reacting to a bit in Julius's post is the other reports now characterizing the police and firemen at the event as "drunks" and "Irish drunks" who "listen to right-wing radio" even though it was reported in their defense that they endorsed 43 Democrats and 4 Republicans in the last election. It's like they are being punished now for booing her. The reports I read about her remarks, which were either vague or I don't recall the details, were speculating the police were booing her because she had made these remarks about them in the past. >My hunch is that, if she made the first of the remarks attributed to >her, she may have been discussing the case of Amadou Diallo, the >unarmed, 22-year-old West African who was shot 41 times by four white >police officers. The officers were eventually exonerated, but it was >not at all certain that they would be, and the verdict remains >controversial. That may well be it, and sounds like it is related to what Julius mentioned. >But this illustrates why the burden of proof for "Clinton stories," at >least for me, is especially high. I wasn't trying to pass on unsubstantiated Clinton stories, just what I read where people were speculating why the police booed her. Like I said, it made me uncomfortable when she and others, including the Fire Chief himself (!) were booed, but I also thought it unnecessary and wrong to strike back at them as a group in the manner I described above. Geez. Some of them may have been rude, but it also made me queasy to see them putdown like that after all they've been through. Just MHO. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 15:52:40 -0500 From: "Pitassi, Mary" Subject: Yuppies (Absolutely NJC) Brenda wrote, and Kakki responded: "> I was in college from '84-'88 and in my crowd being a "yuppie" was considered > shallow. And I was Republican! ; ) Good, I personally could not stand the rise of "yuppiedom" myself and used to crankily scowl at them ;-) Kakki" Me now: I love the phrase "crankily scowl"! Kakki, I've got to borrow this. ;-) And yes, I, too, used to hate yuppies--until I became one. Well, sort of one. At least I still wear dangle earrings to work. Sometimes. Mary P. From that ultimate haven for hippies-turned-yuppies, Madison, WI. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 13:54:00 -0700 From: "Brenda J. Walker" Subject: Re: FIRE/ "The Shadow University" (njc) On 25 Oct 2001, at 9:29, Kakki wrote: > No > one has commented on the students on a number of campuses being banned from > flying American flags, putting up signs that say "Proud to be an American," and > having pro-American rallies. This is more my point than anything - the either > subtle or overt control of students personal beliefs, etc. How do those actions > relate to speech codes, racism and date rate? If they do, I've missed the > connection. I'll take this on. Look specifically at the cases listed on the FIRE web site concerning pro- American messages in dorms, department offices, rallies, etc. http://www.thefire.org/issues/terror_original.php3 There are a total of five cases. Five. And only two of them involve students. And in three of the cases there was an apology and/or revocation of the policy. (Of course, if you have another source that points to a greater number than one rally and one dorm incident, let's see it.) I think it's irresponsible for the FIRE folks to just say that this is the tip of the iceberg without showing us the money. In fact one writer from Penn commented that Kors is prone to "hyperbolic rhetoric and melodramatic narrative" - http//www.upenn.edu/gazette/0199/0199student.html (This article is actually a very revealing look at Kors and his nemesis at the time of the "water buffalo" incident at Penn, Sheldon Hackney.) I read other comments last night that Kors' histrionics undermine the otherwise cogent and thorough presentation in his book. I still however want to read the book for myself. This is certainly not an attempt to excuse the cases where it did happen. I think its wrongheaded to have these types of policies at public institutions. (Private ones are another story in my book.) I am also a believer in the old adage of following the money. Any university with a significant international student population (and the tuition/alumni dollars that come with those students) would have had some discussion about how to keep those students. Some obviously made some bad choices about what might be offensive or not. It doesn't mean that there is some organized effort to stifle Pro-American speech. And they were not the only ones. Leaders in all walks of industry in our country have made some misguided choices since 9/11 whether it be the language they use ("crusade" and "Infinite Justice") or policies about wearing ribbons (LAPD). But there are thousands of colleges in this country. Let's not indict them all or generalize about some conspiracy because of one web site. Especially when you can't even be certain you are seeing all of the facts. These guys represent one side in their presentation of these cases. Who speaks for the administrations' view? What if the poster belonging to the student at Central Michigan University had some other comment on it in addition to the American flag? Would it be in FIRE's interest to tell us? Not to mention the roles that conservative foundations are playing in compelling students to participate in activities which will purposefully piss off liberals on campus. Check out the comments from the former editor of Swathmore's conservative paper, "Common Sense" on page 2 of this story. http://www.salon.com/it/feature/1999/02/19feature.html (The story is a pretty good read that is fairly balanced I think.) My point is that there are many sides to this story and more than a couple of organizations that have a hand in it on both sides of the political spectrum. And each side will spin their view however they need to to support their position. It doesn't make either side more the bearer of the truth than the other. And I already doubt anyone will address this issue because even > here on the JMDL, it is perceived as politcally not popular by some to be > pro-American or not anti-war so certain speech once again will be inherently > stifled. > Please explain to me how speech is being stifled on this list, particularly since, it seems (at least to me anyway) that most of the people on the list (just like the nation) have been in favor of the war action, certainly pro- American and patriotic, with a smaller number of people who have been vocal about being pacifist. Brenda ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 14:00:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: Re: Political views (NJC) Kakki wrote: > To me the ideal would be for Americans to be > multi-faceted instead of locked > into certain platforms or ideologies. Absolutely. The right-left model is a fallacy anyway. So many views that we tend to think "go together" are the result of particular American histories rather than any real philosophical consistency. - --Michael NP: Cassandra Wilson, _New Moon Daughter_ ===== ___________________________________________________________________________ "[Naipaul] is devoutly read wherever literacy in English prevails, as well as in parts of America." - --Gavin McNett, "The Black Sheep." http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2001/10/14/naipaul/index.html Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 13:36:35 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: NJC Translations Thanks for clarifying Bob, I should have gone back and read Vince's post again because that is what he said, too. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 17:09:16 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC Translations <> A minor nit-picky point, really..."Good News" to me translates as "new tunes from Joni"! Or at least a new covers volume...which ain't too far away! ;~) Bob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 14:12:01 -0700 From: "Brenda J. Walker" Subject: Re: Hillary Clinton (NJC) On 25 Oct 2001, at 13:27, Kakki wrote: > The reports I read about > her remarks, which were either vague or I don't recall the details, were > speculating the police were booing her because she had made these remarks about > them in the past. > For what it's worth, I seem to recall hearing in a radio news report the day after the concert that one reason people were pissed off was that her entourage recently bullied their way past a security checkpoint. Brenda ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 15:03:04 -0700 From: "Brenda J. Walker" Subject: Pro-war and Peace Movements on Campus - NJC Campuses Split Over Afghanistan http://college2.nytimes.com/guests/articles/2001/10/15/875583.xml One of the things I found interesting was the glimpse at the internal conflict. One student in the coop house with the long-haired, vegetarians (!) said "If we don't drop bombs, there's still no peace." And at least at Michigan there does not appear to be any problem with both sides expressing their views: "The Michigan Daily  Tom Hayden, author of the Port Huron statement and founder of Students for a Democratic Society, was once its editor  has been critical of the military campaign, but a divided Michigan Student Assembly passed a pro- war resolution on Tuesday. "For every co-op house with a peace banner there is a fraternity with a flag hanging from its window. At each antiwar gathering, a handful of counter demonstrators show up with flags and soon swell to a modest crowd. "Instead of being a conservative organization with these conservative views, we've all of a sudden become the hub of patriotism on campus," said Peter Apel, a senior, whose Young Americans for Freedom chapter has been coordinating the pro-war protests." I'll end with this quote: "Being American does not mean blindly supporting the American government," said Fadi Kiblawi, 20, a Kuwaiti-born Palestinian who went to high school in St. Louis and is among the peace group leaders. "It means using your civil rights to say what you think America should be." Brenda please forgive any screwy formatting.... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 14:56:42 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Subject: Re: New Joni paintings from LA Times Magazine Thanks Kakki for sharing your insights to this! I have heard some others express how the terrorists may have gotten some ideas from some of our movies & books. One, in particular (I forget the author) who described a commercial airline crashing into the WTC. Soon after the attacks, I heard about a think tank kind of scenario which invited some movie producers to participate in the problem solving. Weird. Don't know if that is exactly what she meant but just thought I would throw my 2 cents in on the subject! Kakki wrote >>I also don't think she has fully expressed everything she thinks about it all to Stephen and I, so I don't want to shortcut her. In relation to the bombing of the WTC she attributed the cause to "America's exportation of violence in films and music." She did not elaborate on that. I personally found it not a complete explanation, but after pondering about it for awhile, I could see validity in her point.<<< ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 14:56:38 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Subject: Re: FIRE/ "The Shadow University" (njc) Kakki wrote: >>No one has commented on the students on a number of campuses being banned from flying American flags, putting up signs that say "Proud to be an American," and having pro-American rallies. This is more my point than anything - the either subtle or overt control of students personal beliefs, etc. How do those actions relate to speech codes, racism and date rate? If they do, I've missed the connection. And I already doubt anyone will address this issue because even here on the JMDL, it is perceived as politcally not popular by some to be pro-American or not anti-war so certain speech once again will be inherently stifled.<<< I am on digest so just received & had a chance to read the list on the FIRE website about the students & others who were banned from flying their flags. I agree with you that it is apalling that anyone would ban students or anyone from flying an American flag. I don't get this at all & I am glad there is an organization such as FIRE to help. At the same time, these incidents don't lead me to believe that this is happening on a widepsread basis on campuses everywhere. I am sorry that you feel that it is unpopular on the JMDL to be pro-American or pro-war. I don't share that perception of the JMDL at all. I have heard many folks speak in favor of this war & to tell you the truth, I felt as if my opinion was in the minority but I just think that is the way things are right now in the world & I am okay with that. I have never ever felt like I fit in with the status quo as far as my beliefs & life goes, so am quite used to being in the minority. Although I am not in support of this war & I don't feel compelled to fly a flag, I am so supportive of people flying flags. I am so in support of the kids in the troops fighting in Afghanistan even though I am not in support of this war. As a mother of a son who is the age of those kids, I cry a lot when I see their faces but that is not the reason I do not support this war. What it really is about for me, is that I have a vision of how the world could be & we seem to be getting so far away from how things could be! But as John Gorka once said, "I am from New Jersey, I don't expect much. If the world ended tomorrow, I would adjust" :>} Not really. Anyway, there are many here who have expressed their views in favor of this war & I respect everyone's views on this issue. It is not an easy issue to come to terms with. Truth be told, I find myself hoping that everyone who is in favor of the war is right. I don't want to be right! But my heart & my understanding of the issues has led me to follow down "the road less travelled". Anyway, Kakki, I hope you will continue to express your views & opinions. I think it is important that we all express these things knowing that someone may challenge us, but without taking the challenge personally. ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 18:00:39 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: Pro-American, JMDL? njc Kate wrote: > I am sorry that you feel that it is unpopular on the JMDL to be pro-American > or pro-war. I don't share that perception of the JMDL at all. I have heard > many folks speak in favor of this war & to tell you the truth, I felt as if > my opinion was in the minority there are many here who have expressed their views in favor of this > war I don't necessarily know about the popularity or unpopularity of being Pro-American on this site but there have been many, many posts expressing anti-american sentiment here; criticism about what our government is doing now, and in the past. I do not know if that is the overall consensus of the members of the site but as far as the frequent posters, there have been many more against the governments actions, than vice-versa. That is the reason, I would assume, that Kakki feels the way that she does. I can only remember three posters who have expressed support for the current actions and that is myself, Kakki, and one other poster. As far as being liberal, I consider myself extremely liberal. I am a live and let live type person. Always vote on the side of civil rights, the preservation of the environment, etc. But I do support our current action. I might not like some of the results of it but until someone comes up with some viable alternative, which I have not seen or read here, I will continue to support the actions in the Middle East. I feel as if we have to do something and passive resistance is not going to work with these people. They do not think like us, do not have the same values as us, and will destroy us if we do not act. I did not vote for the current administration and was sickened when they took office but must support them now. mack > ******************************************** > Kate Bennett > www.katebennett.com > sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com > Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: > http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html > ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 18:05:41 -0500 From: "Pitassi, Mary" Subject: RE: JAG, and "jag" (NJC) The Rev. Vince wrote: "I was totally stunned when CBS put a show on the air called JAG and other than a few Chicago newspaper tv columnists going, "hmmm..." no one else noticed so I guess the phrase is really localized." Vince, LOL!!! "JAG" stands for "Judge Advocate General," and the show is about Navy lawyers. I watch it religiously. But about that other "jag": the phrase must not be limited to Chicago, because I certainly heard "jagoff" growing up in Pittsburgh. Being the sweet young thing that I was back then, I hadn't a clue about its connotations of. . . ahem. . . enjoyment. I did know, however, that the term wasn't one anyone wanted directed at them. Mary P. P.S. The things we're finding out about one another today! "Hello, my name is Mary, and I'm a liberal Democrat who, every week. . . " "Go on!" ". . .watches. . . "JAG"!!!" It's a good show. ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 19:21:39 EDT From: Relayer211@aol.com Subject: Re: hilary clinton njc Hillary Clinton allowed me, my mom and my sister to stay overnight at the White House. She called the Hospital the day of my mom's surgery to find out how my mom was doing, and sent her and my mom's boyfriend a follow up note a few months later. Just last month she sent my mom a kind note declining my mom's party invitation, after Sept 11, at a time when she must be extremely busy, with a billion other things to do...There is no doubt in my mind that Hillary Clinton is a caring person. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 18:22:00 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: Re: JAG, and "jag" (NJC) Seen the show but didn't know what it meant and didn't look interesting so never tried it. As far as the terms jag and jagoff, have never heard either one here in Texas, at least from the Panhandle to Ft. Worth. Mack ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 18:32:48 -0500 From: "Sharon L. Buffington" Subject: Re: JAG, and "jag" (NJC) I had a good laugh as well about "Jag". I also watch Jag religiously and we are able as civilians to take Jag courses for CLE (Continuing Legal Education) credits. They are very cheap and the military always puts on the feed bag for one and a half days. Peace......Sharon...unable to accept the windy and cold blustery weather which has blown into wisconsin and the twin cities. "Pitassi, Mary" wrote: > > The Rev. Vince wrote: > > "I was totally stunned when CBS put a show on the air called JAG and > other than a few Chicago newspaper tv columnists going, "hmmm..." no one > else noticed so I guess the phrase is really localized." > > Vince, LOL!!! "JAG" stands for "Judge Advocate General," and the show > is about Navy lawyers. I watch it religiously. > > But about that other "jag": the phrase must not be limited to Chicago, > because I certainly heard "jagoff" growing up in Pittsburgh. Being the > sweet young thing that I was back then, I hadn't a clue about its > connotations of. . . ahem. . . enjoyment. I did know, however, that the > term wasn't one anyone wanted directed at them. > > Mary P. > > P.S. The things we're finding out about one another today! "Hello, my > name is Mary, and I'm a liberal Democrat who, every week. . . " "Go > on!" ". . .watches. . . "JAG"!!!" > > It's a good show. ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 18:31:29 -0500 From: "Pitassi, Mary" Subject: Re: FIRE/"The Shadow University" (njc) Kakki responded to Michael Y. (whose name I was delighted to see again!): "No one has commented on the students on a number of campuses being banned from flying American flags, putting up signs that say "Proud to be an American," and having pro-American rallies. This is more my point than anything - the either subtle or overt control of students personal beliefs, etc." Kakki, I'm honestly curious, and you've mentioned this several times now. Do you have any idea how many times these instances have occurred? I don't doubt that they have occurred, but would appreciate any information you may have about how widespread they have been. I have heard anecdotal stories of the *reverse* happening: students in K-12 schools and universities being made to feel, mainly by their peers or perhaps individual instructors, that their *pacifist* ideas were not welcome. Certainly, in especially the first several weeks after September 11, those views were in the minority. But, as I said, this is completely anecdotal, or at least, I can't document it right now. Again, I'm curious--and always interested in any aspect of free speech and education. Mary P. P.S. I did briefly peruse the FIRE site, and, if I recall, it listed several examples there. And, after this one, I promise not to direct any e-mail at Kakki for about TWO WEEKS!! At least, those are my very best intentions at the moment. ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 18:41:52 -0500 From: "Sharon L. Buffington" Subject: :) Good for you checking out the site and requesting the book Brenda. Of course I am an old hippie and was head of SDS on my campus before they became the violent Weathermen. When I was in graduate school in 1969 in California, I had my loans and grants pulled because I belonged to SDS. At that time we had to sign a loyalty oath and I had my grants pulled because they said I belonged to an organization which advocated overthrow of the government. In December of 1969 I moved to Sweden where I learned Swedish and worked at the sociologiska institutionen in stockholm. It was a wonderful experience which I would not trade for anything. I am so glad that the JMDL affords us the opportunity to express our opinions while remaining ever-constant friends. Love and Peace........Sharon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 18:31:34 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: weather njc Sharon wrote: unable to accept the windy and cold blustery weather > which has blown into wisconsin and the twin cities. Sharon, come to Texas. It is very nice today. 65 degrees. Calm. Beautiful. This time of the year in Central Texas is great. Then again there is the summer. Ugh! Don't imagine anything could be much worse than that. I have a great friend in Minneapolis. He loves it. And, of course, Mary is there so how bad could it be? I grew up in the Texas Panhandle where it was very brutal in winter. Hated it!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Could hardly bear it and to this day I hate snow. Rarely if ever snows here and it is glorious. Still a little too chilly sometimes and would like to go south. cheers, Mack ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 18:35:31 -0500 From: "Pitassi, Mary" Subject: JAG/food/credits (NJC) Sharon Buffington wrote: "I had a good laugh as well about "Jag". I also watch Jag religiously and we are able as civilians to take Jag courses for CLE (Continuing Legal Education) credits. They are very cheap and the military always puts on the feed bag for one and a half days." SHARON!! I didn't know that!! Where can I sign up?!! ;-) Mary. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 19:41:20 EDT From: AsharaJM@aol.com Subject: Re: A Few Notes From the Harbourfront Hommage In a message dated 10/24/2001 2:18:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Coyote4Joni@aol.com writes: > I swear I heard her say she was working on > her book. Please someone assure me I am not going crazy Yes, Rick, I mentioned it in my post. You are not going crazy. Hopefully, now that it's reworked, people will actually be able to "read" it also!! :-) Hugs, Ashara ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 19:44:19 EDT From: AsharaJM@aol.com Subject: Re: Mr. Kratzman In a message dated 10/24/2001 4:32:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, FMYFL@aol.com writes: > Since he was from > Australia, he was going to teach the class about that! (Did I dream that > last part? Help!!! Rick, Janine, Ashara, Pearl, Mags, Brian, J.J., > Polifka, > What I remember is that he said in the curriculum there was only a very "small" bit about Australia, but since he was "from" Australia, he was going to change that to a LARGE part of the studies for the year. Hugs, Ashara ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 19:45:18 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Read Joni's "Walk of Fame" Story!!!!!!! A little birdie from Boston has informed me that Jim Johanson that master of the webmasters has updated part I of Joni related events from last Friday! There's pictures and plenty more coming so come back soon! Awesome job Jim :~) I tried viewing the homepage in AOL and much to my dismay I couldn't view today's news. I had to engage another browser, (Netscape) and there she was. Go figure. Could it be that I just recently upgraded my AOL to 7.0? nah....... Enjoy!!! much Joni Rose in NJ rosemjoy@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 18:54:12 -0500 From: "Sharon L. Buffington" Subject: Re: JAG/food/credits (NJC) Talk with a Jag buddy. They will get you the list. Of course I am Minnesota...but I believe the CLE's are also good in Wisconsin. I will ask Judge Tom Armstrong....here is a Jag judge as well as a district court judge in Minnesota. I did not go this year...and it may have already occurred...but I will get right on it. They are held at the Thunderbird Hotel in Bloomington, Minnesota and I believe we receive 11 credits for $60.00. The topics are always interesting...one year we discussed the military rapes of its female personnel, another time..shooting down the Indian or Iranian airliner...and what the military punishment is. Be prepared to be one of several who are not in uniform! Peace........Sharon "Pitassi, Mary" wrote: > > Sharon Buffington wrote: > > "I had a good laugh as well about "Jag". I also watch Jag religiously > and we are able as civilians to take Jag courses for CLE (Continuing > Legal Education) credits. They are very cheap and the military always > puts on the feed bag for one and a half days." > > SHARON!! I didn't know that!! Where can I sign up?!! > ;-) > > Mary. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 16:50:31 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: foolish bob NJC Bob, I love your report card! I wish I still had mine, I wonder what it would have said. Stares out the window alot? Does anyone else still have their report card comments? ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 17:17:17 -0700 From: "Brenda J. Walker" Subject: Re: Pro-American, JMDL? njc On 25 Oct 2001, at 18:00, Dolphie Bush wrote: > I don't necessarily know about the popularity or unpopularity of being > Pro-American on this site but there have been many, many posts expressing > anti-american sentiment here; criticism about what our government is doing > now, and in the past. I think that this illustrates part of the disconnect. Criticism of our government and what it is doing or has done is not anti-American. Nor is it necessarily anti-war. In fact to me, it is distinctly American to criticize and question our government. Does being a pacifist make you anti-American? Not in my book. Is Richard Gere anti-American because he spoke of turning energy into love, compassion and understanding? Not to me. I am not anti-American or anti-war, but I am definitely critical and will continue to be because we can do better. Again....I'll quote the student from Michigan. I think it applies no matter what your position is: "Being American does not mean blindly supporting the American government," said Fadi Kiblawi, 20, a Kuwaiti-born Palestinian who went to high school in St. Louis and is among the peace group leaders. "It means using your civil rights to say what you think America should be." Brenda ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 20:38:07 -0400 From: "Stephen Epstein" Subject: Re: foolish bob NJC Hi Kate! I remember when I was in unversity art school for a BFA, I was shocked that they took attendance @ each class! Thought I had left that behind in high school. The reasoning was that the dept. felt there was a required # of hours needed in order to get it. Well, I didn't, and rebelled! I would go to class to learn, let's say, horizon lines and perspective, and then stay home and draw all day til I got it, and return to class for the next technical aspect. Some professors were cool with that, when they saw I was actually working- others were not. I remember my drawing prof, Susan Gold, made a written comment that "absurdity meets absurdity head on" Think she gave me a D!! lol! Best, Stephen in Vancouver Bob, I love your report card! I wish I still had mine, I wonder what it would have said. Stares out the window alot? Does anyone else still have their report card comments? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 20:55:45 -0400 From: "Sue Cameron" Subject: rebound (njc) I must say that it is so cool the way we have all shared and rebounded from 9/11. This volume of posts we are producing is full of info! A note to the music slut...are you listening to the new Ben Folds? Rockin' the Suburbs? I am finding this to be quite enjoyable and would like some feedback from any other BF fans... Leaving that "BF" wide open for interpretation........ Sue n.p. Wintertime, Steve Miller and guess what, it FEELS like it! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 20:51:35 EDT From: BigWaltinSF@aol.com Subject: raotflmao (njc?) Bob (Smurph), In one of the many digests I've finally plowing my way through now that I'm back home in SF at my computer, you wrote: >My guess is that some of our JMDLers have horribly embarrassed themselves in front of Joni, and they're just too ashamed to tell the rest of us exactly what's going on. Who knows what this crazy group may have done to warrant such strange silence about this special event? Between you and me, I wouldn't put it past any one of them to slap an inebriated arm around poor Kilauren and ask the nearest photographer to, "Get one of me and 'Little Green' here." < That is absolutely the biggest laugh I've had in as long as I can remember. Thank you, and excuse me while I catch my breath. Very fondly (and wheezing), Walt ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 19:59:59 -0500 From: "Sharon L. Buffington" Subject: Re: weather njc Who is Mary in Minneapolis? Or perhaps you mean Mary Pitassi who lives in Madison...the seat of Wisconsin liberal thinkers. LOL Of course I hang around a lot of artists so my world is rich with liberalism. And where does your great friend live? And of course you have the wild Donna Binkley there in Texas. I do love the four seasons. There is a reason we have 4 seasons. Each one brings it message and gifts. Peace....Sharon making lemon bread Dolphie Bush wrote: > > Sharon wrote: > > unable to accept the windy and cold blustery weather > > which has blown into wisconsin and the twin cities. > > Sharon, come to Texas. It is very nice today. 65 degrees. Calm. > Beautiful. This time of the year in Central Texas is great. Then again > there is the summer. Ugh! Don't imagine anything could be much worse than > that. I have a great friend in Minneapolis. He loves it. And, of course, > Mary is there so how bad could it be? I grew up in the Texas Panhandle > where it was very brutal in winter. Hated it!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Could hardly > bear it and to this day I hate snow. Rarely if ever snows here and it is > glorious. Still a little too chilly sometimes and would like to go south. > > cheers, > Mack ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 20:00:46 -0500 From: "Sharon L. Buffington" Subject: Re: rebound (njc) Ben Folds what? Sue Cameron wrote: > > I must say that it is so cool the way we have > all shared and rebounded from 9/11. This volume > of posts we are producing is full of info! > > A note to the music slut...are you listening to > the new Ben Folds? Rockin' the Suburbs? I am > finding this to be quite enjoyable and would > like some feedback from any other BF fans... > Leaving that "BF" wide open for interpretation........ > > Sue > > n.p. Wintertime, Steve Miller > and guess what, it FEELS like it! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 21:01:22 -0400 From: "Suze Cameron" Subject: Re: rebound (njc) Sharon L. Buffington wrote: >Ben Folds what? It was Ben Folds Five, referring to the front man whose name is Ben Folds, and his group of four. They had a hit single a few years back with "Brick". Since then he has dropped the group and is now just Ben Folds. Wonderful piano playing and articulate, funny lyrics. I especially like the title track on this CD. Sue n.p. Steve Miller, "TrueFineLove" Make a difference, help support the relief efforts in the U.S. http://clubs.lycos.com/live/events/september11.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 19:57:53 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: Re: Pro-American, JMDL? njc Brenda wrote: Criticism of our > government and what it is doing or has done is not anti-American. Nor is it > necessarily anti-war. In fact to me, it is distinctly American to criticize > and question our government. I would disagree. The consistent and relentless postings here about the United States, both present and past, in the negative, I feel, are anti-american. They are most certainly not pro-american. Not supportive of the actions we are taking and, for that matter, have seen little to any support for anything that the United States has ever done. The constant barrage about what bullies we are in the world scope, our dastardly and covert behavior around the globe are most certainly anti-american sentiments. I have seen posts here that pretty much run the gamut worldwide pertaining to all the areas where the U.S. has been wrong and very little to say that we are a fine country that, regardless of the mistakes that we have made, that has done more good for this world than any country that has ever existed. I see nothing wrong with criticizing the government if we are trying to make it better and working within to do so but I see no difference between many of the attitudes expressed here and those of many people in foreign countries; and they are most clearly anti-american. Also, how can one continuously write about what we are doing wrong currently and then say they are not anti-war sentiments? They clearly are anti-war for we are at war. They cannot be both, have to be one or the other. Either one is for the war or against the war. Pro or con. This is not a sit on the fence issue. > > Does being a pacifist make you anti-American? Not in my book. I agree but have yet to hear from anyone here just exactly what they would do in this situation to solve the problem, other than complaining about and deriding the people who are trying to do something about it. am not anti-American or anti-war, but I am definitely critical and will > continue to be because we can do better. I would love to hear just what we should do in this situation that would be better, and still solve the problem. American does not mean blindly supporting the American government," said > Fadi Kiblawi, 20, a Kuwaiti-born Palestinian who went to high school in St. > Louis and is among the peace group leaders. "It means using your civil rights > to say what you think America should be." I think it involves a lot more than saying what you think America should be, like getting out there and making it what it should be. And that not only includes getting involved and changing policy we do not like but supporting those in charge in a time of crisis, like now. I suppose we could serve tea and crumpets to the terrorists and beg them to leave us alone but I don't think that would work and it flat out doesn't matter what we do for as long as we are in the Middle East,(and I am not even convinced that leaving there would suit them) which we will always be unless we decide to leave and let them destroy Israel, which they most surely would do, they are going to continue to attack us and do everything that they can to destroy us. It is us or them, as far as I am concerned, and I am not willing to try to smoke a peace pipe with crazy fanatical individuals who just blew up 5,000 Americans. These people have no shame and all the good will in the world is never going to change that. Mack ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2001 #516 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?