From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2001 #515 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Thursday, October 25 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 515 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: What's the matter with kids today? Bad music! NJC ["Brenda J. Walker"] Re: FIRE/ "The Shadow University" (njc) ["Kakki" ] Re:On October 25 in Joni Mitchell History [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: Richard Gere's comments - What's the big deal? (NJC) [AsharaJM@aol.co] HB NJC late [Steve Polifka ] Parody- an account of my Journey NJC [Steve Polifka ] Re: Tori? Crazi! NJC [Yael Harlap ] Joan and Richard ["marianne marianne" ] Re: What's the matter with kids today? Bad music! NJC [Michael Yarbrough ] Re: Unknown Lyrics of Slouching Toward Bethlehem ["Jamie Zubairi" ] Re: Richard Gere's comments NJC [Susan Guzzi ] Re: Furry Lewis "Furry's Blues" (NJC) [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: FIRE/ "The Shadow University" (njc) [Michael Yarbrough ] Re: FIRE/ "The Shadow University" (njc) ["Kakki" ] Re: (Fwd) RE: Marxism/Is Gil-White a Marxist? No. (NJC) ["Pitassi, Mary"] Re: New Joni paintings from LA Times Magazine ["Kate Bennett" ] Political views (NJC) ["Pitassi, Mary" ] Re: New Joni paintings from LA Times Magazine ["Kakki" Subject: Re: What's the matter with kids today? Bad music! NJC On 25 Oct 2001, at 2:31, Murphycopy@aol.com wrote: > > After last call (Bartenders hollering at the top of their lungs, "The bar is > closed. Get the fuck out right now!"), I asked Dave on the way home why most of > the music we heard tonight came out when I was about 18. He said, "Because music > today sucks." Play some Ryan Adams for him. Brenda n.p.: Leno (not sure why...) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 23:57:35 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: FIRE/ "The Shadow University" (njc) Brenda, > And most of the commentary seems to point to > examples in the book of student cases since the whole anti-PC movement began > (roughly around 1990). Like I said, I found it by accident today, knew nothing about it previously, haven't read the book, etc. What interested me is that they are defending and representing students who are currently beeing banned from displaying American flags, slogans and having pro-American rallies on campuses. How ironic - some of the people now who are so concerned that they will be thought anti-American or told to "love it or leave it" like back in the 60s when they dissented, area turning around and banning expressions of being "pro-American." It really is a little insane to me, that people have to feel like they are being incorrect or offending someone to be "pro" their country in a time of national crisis. >So personally, I will be more inclined to buy the > connection to the 60's as outlined in the introduction, if it is about more > than speech codes and the "PC" era because I'm of the opinion that the PC > phenomenon is not of a Marxist origin. And it's a far cry from totalitarianism > in my book. I knew nothing of any anti-PC movement until you mentioned it. I make the connection because of the great influence George Orwell's writings had on me when I was young. Orwell, a staunch socialist, saw the trend within his own ranks and warned against it. If an individual's speech is being controlled and defined by a self-appointed of officially appointed group that is definitely right in the ballpark of the totalitarianism that Orwell warned about. Maybe Orwell is passe these days. My thinking may be prehistoric at this point, but I see it from my reference point. > On the campus where I attended college, "political correctness" and > multiculturalism was a response to blatant and acknowledged racist acts by the > administration, campus police and students. The trouble is that it has gone > too far in the other direction. See, this is where something that starts out for good and moral purposes becomes twisted and perverted somehow by people who abandon discernment in favor of advancing whole "movements." Blatant racist acts absolutely should always be publically condemned and dealt with strongly wherever and whenever they happen. However, to go to the furthest extreme and assume that everyone on earth is automatically racist and must be systematically re-educated is perhaps treacherous, not to mention abusive in itself, in some instances. > What I've read so far about the book leads me to believe that the writers make > their case that individual liberties have been compromised by speech codes and > that there is a lack of due process on campus. However, I want to see how they > prove the re-education to collectivism. These are two separate things to me. > I'll let you know what I think after I read it. Maybe I should read it, too. They criticize the institutionalization of "group-think." Maybe that relates to collectivism in the sense that for it to be successful one either has to assume, or direct, or dictate that the group is all on the same page. > I was in college from '84-'88 and in my crowd being a "yuppie" was considered > shallow. And I was Republican! ; ) Good, I personally could not stand the rise of "yuppiedom" myself and used to crankily scowl at them ;-) Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 03:21:11 -0400 From: les@jmdl.com Subject: Today in Joni History: October 25 On October 25 in Joni Mitchell History: 1994: From Wally's Bio Page: The album "Turbulent Indigo" is released today. Joni went live on air on KSCW-FM's "Music Hall" in Glendale and for more than an hour performed solo on guitar, answered questions from the DJ, and told some fascinating stories about her adventures in Mexico with Charles Mingus, the beginnings of her trip up from Mexico to Albuquerque to visit painter Georgia O'Keefe, etc. 1998: Tonight, Joni performs in Chicago with Bob Dylan More info: http://www.jmdl.com/performances/docs/981025.cfm http://www.jmdl.com/articles/docs/981026ct.cfm - ------------------------ Search the "Today" database: http://www.jmdl.com/today ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 03:21:11 -0400 From: les@jmdl.com Subject: Today's Articles: October 25 On October 25 this article was published: 1998: "Taming the Tiger" - New Jersey Star-Ledger (Review - Album) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/docs/981025njsl.cfm - ------------------------ The JMDL Article Database has 645 titles. http://www.jmdl.com/articles ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 04:27:16 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: article on yeats' poem i found this article on yeats' ''the second coming'', which joni partially used for ''slouching towards bethlehem''. i found it interesting and provocative. go to http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/4942/exytssec.html wallyK ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 06:56:01 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re:On October 25 in Joni Mitchell History Les reminds us: <<1994: From Wally's Bio Page: The album "Turbulent Indigo" is released today. >> "He'd piss in their fireplace! He'd drag them through Turbulent Indigo" Happy Birthday TI. I can still remember standing at the record store waiting for the doors to open! as for (NJC), happy birthdays go out to Helen Reddy and Jon Anderson who were separated at birth :~) Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 08:27:12 EDT From: AsharaJM@aol.com Subject: Re: Richard Gere's comments - What's the big deal? (NJC) Jack wrote: > If we've reached a point where someone can't speak out in favor of > compassion, love and understanding, without being labeled an embarassment > to the American people, then the terrorists have scored a much bigger > victory than anyone is admitting to. > This is one of the most touching things I've heard said here, and so true. We are definitely and sadly living in a completely different world than before September 11th. Hugs, Ashara ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 08:11:38 -0500 From: Steve Polifka Subject: HB NJC late Warm rain on the winds On the shores of this other great lake As the prismed leaves dance All around the city streets I found myself thinking of you Warm thoughts, long embraces Cocktails, nervous laughter While we wait at the CNE Dreams do come true You're living it now Carpe diem! My best to you, sister-friend Love and wishes for the best day ever Hugs from the Third Coast of the US Stevie... Steve ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 08:12:54 -0500 From: Steve Polifka Subject: Parody- an account of my Journey NJC To the tune of Dreamland... If you have ever taken Amtrak, a comradery often occurs in time of stress or delays... This IS a true story- all thes folks are real... It's a long long way to Canada A long way on the train They gave free soda and a choice of snacks To make up for a 4 hour delay (They do run, do run They don't run, don't run...) This college girls got a cell phone Bitching at mom to meet her there Hoping for a faster trip home Mom tells her, "Stay right there," Amtrak Amtrak Amtrak This guy is from Toronto First time in Chicago now Says his family was adventurous Amtrak changed their mind somehow (They do run, do run They don't run, don't run...) A dad is drunk- kids a'whinin' Kicking folks as they walk by Mother cursing softly to her mate Whishing they could fly Amtrak... Now a boy and girl are smiling So in love, in love are they And across the seating aisle With a friend saome cards they play All men all women crying Hear that whistle all night long Propped up on a ganja beat Get to Toronto NOW Amtrak.. The conductor is sarcastic Over the intercom Telling us to call the toll free line For a pass or a refund... Amtrak... Steve ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 08:13:32 -0500 From: Steve Polifka Subject: Joni Tribute, part one Hi all... After a long arduous Amtrak journey, I managed to reach Jimmy and Rick, and we cabbed it to the Theatre where Joni was to get her star on Canada's Walk of Fame. We found fellow JMDLer's Ashara, Sal, Stephen, Yael, Jim Johanson who I was so happy to meet, and some new folk whose names escape me right now. Of course, the theatre was roped off in red velvet, making room for dignitaries, and special guests and of course the press. A fabulous mixture of her songs played on the outdoor sound system, and people trickled to the event from the streets. Eventually, some bagpipers came out with pipes ablarin' and out came the goddess, following several others inclucing the mayor(is he the mayor? sorrry Mags, I don't know his title!) Margaret Atwood recieved her award first after an intro by the mayor, then Joni, who radiated warmth and beauty as usual. When she was given her key to the city, she asked "So what does it open?" Only our Joni! (The response was- t'he hearts of all the people of Toronto', BTW) Then she got her award, which looked like an asymmetrical star with a hole in it- made out of granite no less- she handed it to the mayor like it was in her way,and stepped up to the podium. After a few sentences she asked that folks curb their dogs and not to litter on the star- getting chuckles from us all, but she really wanted everyone to think of a light hearted moment that made them laugh or chuckle when they passed by it. "That" she said, "Would please me..." At one point I yelled out "Joni Rocks!", and she looked over to see who it was. I waived a little special wave, and she waved back to me with a smile. My only real Joni moment, sigh... So she and Margaret walked over and unvieled the walk, posed for pics, and the press flocked to her, leaving poor Margaret all alone with one reporter... lol (and ironic lol, at that...)She dissapeared whence she came, and eventually we looked at the walk ourselves. Right before that however, I was standing with Jimmy and Yael, and we were singing along to Chelsea morning, and a crew turned to us and shot a bit. With our stopping upon embarrassment, they encouraged us to sing more, and asked us what are favorite Joni lp was. I said "Depends on the day of the week..." So we all listed as many albums as we could, and the question was asked "why Joni?" I replied, "Who else is there?" I went on a bit, but don't recal my exact words. Didn't see it on the news, and did not recall which station caught us at that moment. I then headed back with most on the subway, waiting to get ready for the evenings festivities... Steve ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 09:46:17 -0400 From: Yael Harlap Subject: Re: Tori? Crazi! NJC Bob blasphemed: >Yes, you are indeed certifiable **nuts** for considering that, Yael. >Especially given that her latest project is at best a brave failure, and >her last solid effort was "Under The Pink" which was a while back. > >Unfortunately, her fans have elevated her to some sort of "Goddess" >status, and she thinks she can do no wrong. There are some great tracks on >"Strange Little Girls", but for the most part it's very forgettable. None >of them approach the tortured beauty of her cover of "A Case of You", >although her handling of Eminem's "'97 Bonnie & Clyde" is MAJORLY creepy & >effective. Well, ok, I don't think she can do no wrong, but I happen to like a lot of Tori's stuff post-Under the Pink. I would agree that the earlier stuff is probably stronger; I was reflecting on this at the shows I went to when she was playing a lot of Earthquakes songs. The lyrics were much more powerful early on. I agree that most of SLG is pretty forgettable, although after seeing it live, I love her version of Rattlesnakes, and Real Men is amazing, too. Her "97 Bonnie and Clyde" - it is terribly effective - I can't listen to it, it creeps me out. But back to my original point - Boys for Pele is the favorite album of many Toriphiles (I believe when thedent.com did a poll a year or two ago, it was the favorite of about 40% - - and most fans with internet read the dent), and there are some fabulous songs on there. Choirgirl also has some strong stuff, and the b-sides from Choirgirl are top-notch. I admit she lost me somewhat with To Venus and Back. I was particularly disappointed with the live songs - she was such a perfectionist about quality that she ended up making a completely sterile live disc. There were a few original songs that I liked - Concertina, Not tonight Josephine, Spring Haze and Lust - and the rest I could take or leave. And that's just my opinion. But, incidentally, if you love the early stuff you should definitely check out one of the shows on this tour because it is heavily Little Earthquakes-era. She's only been doing about 3 songs each show from the new album (the rumors are it was just to fulfill her contractual obligation). hugs, Yael ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 09:48:48 -0400 From: "marianne marianne" Subject: Joan and Richard I noticed someone wrote a message to Joni on the list. I thought this was sweet. Where do we send something to Joni if we wanted to write her? Does anyone know? Regarding Richard Gere's comments. I want to say THANKS to Jack, Jan and Fred. ("Can I walk beside you?")... for responding to Richard Gere's comments. ie What's wrong with them? I kept reading them over and over to see what was wrong with them couldn't figure it out. Jack wrote. . . "I totally support his right to say what he said (and at the risk of being labeled anti-American myself, I agreed with him, at least in sentiment). If we've reached a point where someone can't speak out in favor of compassion, love and understanding, without being labeled an embarassment to the American people, then the terrorists have scored a much bigger victory than anyone is admitting to." I second this. Thanks Jack. (will you be mine?) Also, The quote by A. Lincoln was inspiring. . . "They sin by their silence... when they should have spoken out." _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 07:13:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: Re: What's the matter with kids today? Bad music! NJC - --- "Brenda J. Walker" wrote: > On 25 Oct 2001, at 2:31, Murphycopy@aol.com wrote: > > > > > After last call (Bartenders hollering at the top > of their lungs, "The bar is > > closed. Get the fuck out right now!"), I asked > Dave on the way home why most of > > the music we heard tonight came out when I was > about 18. He said, "Because music > > today sucks." > > Play some Ryan Adams for him. Or Mary J. Blige. - --Michael NP: Sam Phillips, _Martinis & Bikinis_ ===== ___________________________________________________________________________ "[Naipaul] is devoutly read wherever literacy in English prevails, as well as in parts of America." - --Gavin McNett, "The Black Sheep." http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2001/10/14/naipaul/index.html Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 15:20:38 +0100 From: "Jamie Zubairi" Subject: Re: Unknown Lyrics of Slouching Toward Bethlehem It's actually 'Head of a man, shaped like a lion' or 'shape of a lion', echoing the verse, 'Shaped like a lion, it has the head of a man.' Much Joni Jamie Zoob - ----- Original Message ----- From: Nuriel Tobias To: Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 11:01 PM Subject: Unknown Lyrics of Slouching Toward Bethlehem > Anyone blessed with a finer sense of hearing than myself would be very kind to tell me what is Joni singing in the end of nearly every chorus of Slouching Toward Bethlehem. After the line "...to be born" Joni's back voices go "oh-wwwwweeeeee" and then a line that sounds like "hell of a man" and then a line that sounds like "a shimmering iron" (only sounds like, for both lines). I'm 100% positive Joni's singing words in both cases. Been trying to solve this riddle ever since i first heard the song. Please help. > > Lots of love and life to ya', > Nuri > > > > _____________________________________________________________ > Free email, web pages, news, entertainment, weather and MORE! > Check out -------------------------------> http://wowmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 07:19:49 -0700 From: "Brenda J. Walker" Subject: Re: FIRE/ "The Shadow University" (njc) On 24 Oct 2001, at 23:57, Kakki wrote: > > I knew nothing of any anti-PC movement until you mentioned it. Really? D'Souza was on just about every major news program when "Illiberal Education" was published. >However, to go to the furthest extreme and assume that everyone on > earth is automatically racist and must be systematically re-educated is perhaps > treacherous, not to mention abusive in itself, in some instances. > Well, I won't buy that the furthest extreme has happened and assumptions are being made that everyone is automatically racist or sexist until I read the book and it proves its case in that regard. (I totally forgot to mention sexism before; there was a significant rise in date rape cases on my campus and that also contributed to policies.) Brenda n.p.: KCRW ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 10:35:01 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Tori? Crazi! NJC <> Thanks for not beating me up TOO badly for my blasphemous blabbing, Yael! :~) Re: your comments above, I'd LOVE to hear some specifics about what is 'fabulous' about BFP. All I've heard is that it's her best record ever, it's got great songs, etc. but I've heard it many times and just can't get into it. So I'm not challenging you, but rather just asking for your thoughts on WHY this is a great record. Being a songwriter and musician yourself, I hold your thoughts in high regard. And even though I blasphemed, it sounds like we're not SO far apart in some of our opinions. Bob PS: She must be doing SOMETHING right, cuz her tour is selling out everywhere she goes! NP: (Believe it or not) Jane Siberry, "Lovin' Cup" dedicated to my bud Coyote Rick! :~) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 07:41:11 -0700 From: Leslie Mixon Subject: Furry Lewis "Furry's Blues" (NJC) Les has just posted a memoir written by Stanley Booth about Furry Lewis from Playboy Magazine, April 1970. It's a very good read! Here's the link: http://www.jmdl.com/glossary/furry.cfm Enjoy, Leslie ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 07:43:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: Richard Gere's comments NJC Jan wrote: > This was the only thing that bothered me. I HATE Roger Clemens. > -jan > (national leaguer at heart) Vince wrote: I am an American Leaguer and I can't stand Clemens either. Well not to turn this into an American vs. National thing. But I too being an American league fan, do not like Clemens. After all he really should be able to tell the difference between a bat and a baseball. That incident with Piazza totally overrides any respect I had for his pitching skills. Fred wrote: Ain't nothin' wrong with what he said. Absolutely Nothing! (still talking in song Fred). But really, I saw his remarks first hand. But when everyone started chatting about them, I thought perhaps I had missed him in another part of the show, cause I didn't hear anything wrong with what he said. I can't believe this was booed at all. And secondly, I can't believe it's getting this kind of attention and media coverage. Which by the way is not good for Gere or for police & firefighters. Courage comes in all shapes and sizes, Gere's remarks were courageous. But maybe some people prefer hypocrites and bull!!!! - I know I don't. Gere's finding Buddhism has made him a better man. Believe me, I had an opportunity to be on a movie set with him many years ago - he was a total jag! Plus my scene got cut! Good for him striving to be a better human. Peace Susan Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 10:45:00 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Furry Lewis "Furry's Blues" (NJC) <> You mean Playboy has ARTICLES too? Damn, y'learn somethin' every day! ;~) Speaking of Furry (a pun perhaps...), I saw where a guy has one of Furry's guitars and guitar cases for sale, if you collect Blues memorabilia and have a couple extra grand sitting around. Bob NP: Caulfields, "The Day That Came & Went" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 08:01:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: Re: FIRE/ "The Shadow University" (njc) - --- "Brenda J. Walker" wrote: > On 24 Oct 2001, at 23:57, Kakki wrote: > > > > I knew nothing of any anti-PC movement until you > mentioned it. > > Really? D'Souza was on just about every major news > program when "Illiberal > Education" was published. And Allan Bloom's _The Closing of the American Mind_, advancing a very similar argument, was a HUGE, high-profile bestseller. I agree with Kakki that many attempts to deal with very real racism and sexism on college campuses has taken the form of clumsy speech codes that are not only repressive, but forbear the possibility of honest discussion about race, etc., which is to my mind a CRUCIAL step in dealing with undemocratic attitudes. And yes, many espousing such speech codes look to '60s campus activism for inspiration, and some believe in socialist or even Marxist ideals. What I disagree about is the extent and directness of this influence. The initial claim was that the U.S. academic system has "long been either dominated or heavily influenced by" Marxist ideologies. As I read the thread--and correct me if I'm wrong--Kakki later amended this to say that Marxist ideology was subtly influential in today's American educational system. Based on my very recent experience of a rarefied part of the American educational system, my take is that Marxist thought is very much alive and well on campuses, but it certainly is not "dominant." Subtle influence seems closer to the truth, but lots of ideologies exert their subtle influence in our academic halls, from fundamentalist Christianity to secular humanism to multiculturalism to, as we now know, libertarianism. And well they should. The academy *should* be a marketplace of ideas. We should fight the speech codes but not give up trying to solve the persistent institutionalized prejudice these codes clumsily attempt to address. On that I suspect Kakki and I would agree. :-) - --Michael NP: Yahzarah, _Hear Me_ ===== ___________________________________________________________________________ "[Naipaul] is devoutly read wherever literacy in English prevails, as well as in parts of America." - --Gavin McNett, "The Black Sheep." http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2001/10/14/naipaul/index.html Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 10:43:30 -0500 From: Steve Polifka Subject: The journey, part two- no parody, NJC So now here's the rest of the tale of coming home from Toronto. We left Union station on time, only to get near Port Huron when we find out that there was a freight derailment in the states. We are going to be bussed across the border and around the wreck. At customs, the Canadians and US citizens are separated. The Canadians get back on the bus after a couple of questions, and we have our bags checked! (Good thing I am a neat packer...lol) A big guy escorted me to the counter, and overlooked the line of us, having a very pleasant attitude about the whole thing. So this blonde woman in her 50's with her hair pulled up acting like a tough broad askes me why I went to Canada. I said to see Joni Mitchell. She replies, "So you went to Canada to see a person named Joni Mitchell..." Before I could respond, The big co-worker steps up and says,"You don't know who JONI MITCHELL is???" Woman: "No, who is she?" Man:"She's a singer!" Woman to me: "She's a singer, so what does she sing?" Me: "Both sides now, Chelsea Morning, Help me,- she has 20 albums-" Woman: "So sing me something." Me: "Woke up, it was a Chelsea Morning and the first thing that I saw-" They both laugh and she says okay okay, and doesn't really go through my bags other than a light inspection, tels me I can zip it up and go... LOL! So now we go to ANOTHER bus to take us to the train heading towards Toronto, so they can turn it around and head back to Chicago. We sit at this station with no food or water (It was turned into a RR museum) for an hour. Made a few more friends there. We get to Chicago a half hour AFTER my train for Milwaukee left, so Amtrak put me up in a hotel and I caught the first train home in the morning, just to get to work in time Tuesday... Argh! But after Joni, it was sooooo worth it! Steve Steve ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 12:21:27 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: more local language NJC Susan Guzzi wrote: > Gere's finding Buddhism has made him a better man. > Believe me, I had an opportunity to be on a movie set > with him many years ago - he was a total jag! Plus my > scene got cut! Good for him striving to be a better > human. > A few weeks ago we were discussing words that were used locally - "jag" is one of those, used only in Chicago to my knowledge, short for "jagoff" which is a person who enjoys himself by himself, and the connotation is very nasty, very harsh. To call someone a "jag" or "jagoff" is really, extremely insulting and it has no corresponding insult even here in Michigan, just a few states away. The term "jackoff" is not used in Chicago, and outside of Chicago it doesn't seem to have the insulting connotations that "jag" or "jagoff" does. And if one were to say "jagoff" here in Michigan, no one knows what you are talking about, they don't know the word. I was totally stunned when CBS put a show on the air called JAG and other than a few Chicago newspaper tv columnists going, "hmmm..." no one else noticed so I guess the phrase is really localized. It was reported that the one way to get John Wayne Gacy to go berserk was to call him a jag or jagoff. The prison guards used to do that to him just to see his big time reaction. It has been speculated that his killing spree had its origins perhaps in some kid calling Gacy a jagoff at an inopportune time, which only testifies to Gacy being evil but also the power of that particular insult. I guess I am posting this for Wally mostly since he was so interested in local words and phrases. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 09:07:19 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: FIRE/ "The Shadow University" (njc) Brenda, > Really? D'Souza was on just about every major news program when "Illiberal > Education" was published. Believe it or not, I've gone for whole years at a time without watching much TV or reading books at all due to my often work hours, etc. > (I totally forgot to mention sexism before; >there was a significant rise in date rape cases >on my campus and that also contributed to >policies.) I have no problem at all with any institution implementing rules and policies that deal with racism, sexism, date rape, etc. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 12:34:22 -0400 From: "blonde in the bleachers" Subject: Re: Richard Gere's comments >This was the only thing that bothered me. I HATE Roger Clemens. >-jan >(national leaguer at heart) I HATE Roger Clemens too(Red Sox fan at heart) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 09:29:43 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: FIRE/ "The Shadow University" (njc) Michael wrote: > I agree with Kakki that many attempts to >deal with very real racism and sexism on >college campuses has taken the form of >clumsy speech codes that are not only >repressive, but forbear the possibility of >honest discussion about race, etc., which is to >my mind a CRUCIAL step in dealing with >undemocratic attitudes. Yes, and the speech codes themselves undemocratic and they assume that every student is ignorant and must be told what is appropriate speech individuals. >And yes, many espousing such speech codes >look to '60s campus activism for inspiration, >and some believe in socialist or even Marxist >ideals. The whole thing is very alarming to me. > What I disagree about is the extent and >directness of this influence. I think the extent of influence has been very wide. I also see it as going beyond "speech codes." Those who imposed these codes seem to actively be not only defining and controlling speech but also minds and personal ideologies. No one has commented on the students on a number of campuses being banned from flying American flags, putting up signs that say "Proud to be an American," and having pro-American rallies. This is more my point than anything - the either subtle or overt control of students personal beliefs, etc. How do those actions relate to speech codes, racism and date rate? If they do, I've missed the connection. And I already doubt anyone will address this issue because even here on the JMDL, it is perceived as politcally not popular by some to be pro-American or not anti-war so certain speech once again will be inherently stifled. > Based on my very recent experience of a >rarefied part of the American educational >system, my take is that Marxist thought is very >much alive and well on campuses, but it >certainly is not "dominant." Subtle > influence seems closer to the truth, but lots of > ideologies exert their subtle influence in our > academic halls, from fundamentalist >Christianity to secular humanism to >multiculturalism to, as we now > know, libertarianism. I don't know that fundamentalist Christianity could be so openly incorporated into so many aspects of campus studies and life as Marxist ideologies. Marxism and secular humanism are acceptable because they are not seen as religions but it seems that any type of advancing of religious ideals or beliefs would be immediately stopped because of the vigilance towards keeping the separation of church and state in our institutions. > And well they should. The > academy *should* be a marketplace of >ideas. Yes. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 10:13:38 -0700 From: jan Subject: Re: Richard Gere's comments NJC At 07:43 AM 10/25/01 -0700, Susan Guzzi wrote: (snip) >Well not to turn this into an American vs. National >thing. But I too being an American league fan, do not >like Clemens. After all he really should be able to >tell the difference between a bat and a baseball. >That incident with Piazza totally overrides any >respect I had for his pitching skills. (snip) >Peace >Susan Don't get me wrong; I like the American League; the teams and players. I just think it's more interesting when the pitcher gets pitched. I'd love to have seen Clemens behind the plate in that game. - -jan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 13:45:21 -0500 From: "Pitassi, Mary" Subject: Re: (Fwd) RE: Marxism/Is Gil-White a Marxist? No. (NJC) Kakki wrote: "I think exactly the same can be said about many other unsupported claims and conclusions which are made here on the list." Kakki, if you believe that, then I, too, strongly encourage you to ask for verification or documentation when the item is posted. The person doing the posting may not have time to search for it, or may, as is often the case with me, be dashing something off rather quickly from memories of past reading or news broadcasts, but not be able to cite the exact source at the moment. On the other hand, s/he MAY be able to locate those sources quickly, or even have them directly at hand. I know that part of the beauty of a list like this is precisely that we are writing far less formally than we would be for publication in a magazine, or for, say, submission of a brief to a court. But, where it is possible, we can only learn from careful documentation. I CAN say that I will take far more seriously a specific plea for documentation at the time an item is posted, and the dialogue that may ensue from that request, than I will a general statement that, at some unspecified time, documentation for certain unspecified assertions was lacking. You also wrote: "I could provide support for my experiences, claims and opinions but I don't think the audience here is really all that receptive to hearing them and would rather "shoot the messenger." Please do provide it! I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I am *always* interested in seeing support, as I am open, I hope, to being convinced by the evidence. Of course, the *interpretation* of that evidence can only be filtered through the lens of one's own belief system and experience, so any one of us may not be convinced by the sources posted by someone holding another view . However, I hope that we would consider them seriously, and even ask questions that leads to a whole new way of looking at things. I can tell you that I will surely try. Finally, Brenda wrote: "I hope you will provide the support for what you believe and that you will call people out to substantiate what they claim as well. Don't be deterred; as you may know you have to work harder to present your position when it is a minority view. I've certainly been faced with it enough in my life to know. " I've never been a member of a racial minority in the society I live in, nor a member of an ethnic minority facing significant discrimination within my lifetime (although, if I had been born a few generations earlier, things would have been different). But I certainly hold minority political views in contexts other than this list, and religious beliefs which are treated, in certain circles I travel within, with a range of reactions from benign tolerance to outright contempt. There have been times when I've taken stands, and times when I have not, only to regret it later. I know how difficult it can be to take those stands. Please know, Kakki, that although I will most likely continue to disagree with the vast majority of your views on political topics--I would say, to put it mildly, that we're never going to be political soulmates--I deeply respect and admire you for putting your views out there and daring to stand up for and document them, even, or maybe especially, at those times when you are in the minority here. That does not mean that I will not counter what you write with another view, or another source, if I think the subject warrants it. It does mean, however, that I hope to always do so with respect, and that I hope you will always know that that respect is there. Mary P. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 12:26:03 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: New Joni paintings from LA Times Magazine Kakki alluded to Joni's take on the war not being political...could it be related to biblical prophecy? I would love to hear Kakki & Steve's interpretations of this photo, if they feel it is appropriate to discuss. My first impression was that the cross looked like the Red Cross logo. I really do feel the contrast of peace in the natural world (her garden) vs the destruction of the towers. Such a duality of reality. Vince wrote>>> The second picture is something I want to get ideas on... It sure does look as if she (or whoever the hand belongs to) is holding a Bible, maybe a complete Bible, maybe a New Testament, since the word "Gospel" means "good news" and the word "news" appears on the book cover under the cross - - - I have not been knowledgeable on the imagery in Joni's work... so I am very interested in anyone's interpretations of that drawing, including Kakki and Stephen who may have discussed these paintings with Joni -<<< ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html *** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 12:41:53 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: (Fwd) RE: Marxism/Is Gil-White a Marxist? No. (NJC) Mary, > Kakki, if you believe that, then I, too, strongly encourage you to ask > for verification or documentation when the item is posted. The person > doing the posting may not have time to search for it, or may, as is > often the case with me, be dashing something off rather quickly from > memories of past reading or news broadcasts, but not be able to cite the > exact source at the moment. On the other hand, s/he MAY be able to > locate those sources quickly, or even have them directly at hand. I have asked for documentation and it's either been ignored or not provided. When I have seen people posting things here that I don't think are fact, I have usually been the one to go to the trouble of locating facts which disprove the item being posted. Many oversimplified, illogical, biased and generlaized items and views are posted here that are never challenged. > Please do provide it! I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I am > *always* interested in seeing support, as I am open, I hope, to being > convinced by the evidence. Of course, the *interpretation* of that > evidence can only be filtered through the lens of one's own belief > system and experience, so any one of us may not be convinced by the > sources posted by someone holding another view. What about the reports, not only in the source I provided, but in many other widely disseminated mainstream news reports of people being banned from displaying American flags on campuses and in the workplace? Does this not bring into question a few things? > Please know, Kakki, that although I will most likely continue to > disagree with the vast majority of your views on political topics--I > would say, to put it mildly, that we're never going to be political > soulmates--I deeply respect and admire you for putting your views out > there and daring to stand up for and document them, even, or maybe > especially, at those times when you are in the minority here. That does > not mean that I will not counter what you write with another view, or > another source, if I think the subject warrants it. I know you have always been respectful, Mary, but I am really starting to be troubled by so many here who always preface remarks to me that "I don't agree with your political views" or "I will never agree with your political views" but "I will respect your right to them." I'm really not sure people here really know my real political views. I don't think I've have expressed them here in great depth. My being dubious of the Clintons or PC or being anti-Marxist or pro-defense are views held by many people across the political spectrum. It baffles me that I am perhaps "pigeonholed" here based on a few positions I've taken that have also been taken by many people in the country, regardless of political affiliation. My "politics" or "ideology" does not fit perfectly into any one platform. I believe and stand for very liberal concepts and causes but hate politics of division or tyranny no matter which side it is coming from. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 13:14:21 -0700 From: jan Subject: Re: Richard Gere's comments At 12:34 PM 10/25/01 -0400, blonde in the bleachers wrote: > > (snip) > I HATE Roger Clemens too > (Red Sox fan at heart) What's lame is that Clemens now says the Red Sox's penchance for blowing leads/games/series cost him precious wins for his lifetime stats. This was, methinks, in a '60 minutes' profile. - -jan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 15:21:04 -0500 From: "Pitassi, Mary" Subject: Political views (NJC) Kakki wrote: "My being dubious of the Clintons or PC or being anti-Marxist or pro-defense are views held by many people across the political spectrum. It baffles me that I am perhaps "pigeonholed" here based on a few positions I've taken that have also been taken by many people in the country, regardless of political affiliation. My "politics" or "ideology" does not fit perfectly into any one platform. I believe and stand for very liberal concepts and causes but hate politics of division or tyranny no matter which side it is coming from." Kakki, I certainly hear you when you say that it's possible to have any one or maybe several of these views and not fit into a "platform." As a Catholic, I frequently run into people who, knowing nothing else about me, think they can predict my political views from one or several very well-publicized church positions: usually, abortion, and the refusal to ordain women priests. I tell them that, if I were to hold all the church's official positions as my own--and I don't--I would span the political spectrum from very liberal to very conservative! I will say that, although I've heard you say that you also hold liberal views, I would characterize the ones I've read here as almost exclusively conservative or libertarian. "Not that there's anything wrong with that," as Jerry Seinfeld would say! It's just that, based on what you've chosen to express on this list, that's where I would place you, just as I would place myself firmly on the left. But you're right. There are many things about you that I don't know, political views are multifaceted, and I will try to always keep those things in mind. Mary P. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 13:11:47 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: New Joni paintings from LA Times Magazine I will relate what she said but I REALLY do not want to be "shot" as the messenger or accused of somehow misinterpreting her, etc., etc. etc. I know there are people here who are not going to agree with her take. It is probably controversial to some but not to others. I also don't think she has fully expressed everything she thinks about it all to Stephen and I, so I don't want to shortcut her. In relation to the bombing of the WTC she attributed the cause to "America's exportation of violence in films and music." She did not elaborate on that. I personally found it not a complete explanation, but after pondering about it for awhile, I could see validity in her point. Joni did not mention biblical prophecy. I thought the cross could be the Red Cross logo but also could be the Maltese Cross, the significance of which I'd have to review and research again. The book looked just like the kind of New Testament books I used to see in Protestant churches back in the 50s. I found Vince's information interesting in that the word "bible" translates to "good news" which I'd forgotten. She did not tell us about the garden painting, so I was very pleasantly surprised and intrigued to see that one. She only talked in depth about the numerous images and faces she was seeing coming out of the smoke of the Towers and how she was scurrying around snapping photos from the TV footage, trying to get every moment of it captured. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 16:41:50 EDT From: AsharaJM@aol.com Subject: Reworked Joni Tribute Part 2 Next, the three performers introduced "The Mitchell Effect." Noting that Joni has been covered by more recording artists than any single composer, with the exception of Mozart, we were treated to impromptu "interviews" of people on the street, including song clips of everyday people singing the lyrics to Joni's songs. It was really fun and good placing in the program. That was segued into Rebecca Jenkins singing Blue, with an honest and heartfelt interpretation of the song. We then looked again to the monitors, where Angelica Huston and Joni's best friend, Charles Valentino, were expounding on Joni's virtues. Angelica said that she is "one of those people who makes you happy to be alive because you feel like she's always taking a big bite out of life." Charles said to Joni how much she deserved this honor, and that he and Angelica were going to have a dance in her honor. In the introduction to his next song, Brent says, "Michael, Willy, Richard, Carey, beautiful, beautiful Marcie, Cherokee Louise, Ron, Chikie, Lead Foot Melvin. With every one of these people, Joni Mitchell seems to have reintroduced us to some part of ourselves. And in the brevity of one song, she paints an entire life...like that." As he sang Shadows and Light, Hejira was somehow sandwiched between the beginning and end in a fluid, mellifluous way. Moving forward in Joni's career, the next subject was about charting new territories. Herbie Hancock was now on the monitor, talking abouthow he "happened" onto the Mingus album. He wasn't originally scheduled to be on it, but his friend, Jaco Pastorius, called him and said they were in the studio, and invited him to play. From that point on, he and Joni became friends. He says about Joni, "Her normal mode of conversation is so graphic and full of symbolism, just like her poetry. She speaks poetically." Wayne Shorter was on the monitor next, saying that she is a person who was willing to take chances, one of the few who were willing to put her career on the line. And by doing so, she proceeded to "break sound barriers." Rebecca Jenkins came forward to sing a really lovely version of "Two GreyRooms." Following that were humorous anecdotes, including the fact that Joni Mitchell has been the answer to 42 Across in the New York Times Crossword Puzzle, and her lyrics have stumped a contestant on Who Wants to be a Millionaire. Stating that Joni Mitchell is an "icon," our eyes went back to the monitor for video clips of Joni references, including Chicago Hope,You've Got Mail, Down to You, and Robert Downey singing River on Ally McBeal. Another sandwich follows of Brent singing Sunny Sunday, pausing long enough for Anne Marie to powerfully recite the lyrics to TheMagdalene Laundries, and Brent finishing with the remainder of Sunny Sunday. It was a very powerful combination, with perfect timing. Finally. We are introduced to the Lady of the Hour, Joni Mitchell. She approaches the stage radiant in a two-piece Issy Miyake green and blue outfit. She is joined by Denise Donlan, the president of Sony Music, Canada. Before Joni can even sit down, she is rushed by Brent, Ann Marie and Rebecca, each offering a pack of her favorite cigarettes, American Spirits. All that is left is a light from an audience member, and she comfortably settles into her chair next to Denise. When asked about her "creative genius," Joni says she collects all kinds of ideas and stores them away, including a lot of cinematic ideas and short stories. She added that they always seem to "sort themselves out." She said as a child, she wrote in rhyme. When she was upset, it gave her a structure to work things out. As far as painting, she says, "I used to carry a sketchbook everywhere. Everytime I sat down, I used to draw what was in front of me. I used to sketch everything." She did this while "getting her craft together in a certain way." Joni continues, "I would draw the people at my concert before I went on. They would have to take the pen away from me." (So she could go on stage.) She says she has been approached several times to write a song for a movie, but she always ends up telling the whole movie, so they never use it. She calls herself a "musical illiterate," not knowing the "language," but she adds, "a sophisticated musical illiterate, kind of like an idiot savant of sorts." She says she likes to move around in keys, and gives "metaphorical instruction" to her players. She gives an example: "For instance, in Trouble Child, the piano player was just playing notes, and I told him to play a Japanese wave- it arcs up and then sucks down on itself. Whereas Wayne (Shorter) came to me the first time I played with him in London,he said, "It's like you're in Hyde Park, and there's a nanny and a baby, and the baby has a boat, and the wind is nudging it- (she makes a sound-do, do,do), it's nudging it, (do, do, do) I'm going to play it like that (do,do,do.) and I just thought, 'Oh, I love this guy!'" ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2001 #515 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?