From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2001 #514 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Thursday, October 25 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 514 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: FIRE/ "The Shadow University" (njc) ["Kakki" Subject: Re: FIRE/ "The Shadow University" (njc) Brenda wrote: > I just requested a copy because I would like to see if/how they draw the line > from 60's Marxist ideology to today's campus. That particular connection is > not evident from what is listed on the web site. Did you read the introduction? Where I make the connection is in the concerted efforts of many in academia since the 60s, again mostly in the liberal arts and social sciences, to actively root out individuality and individual opinion (totalitarian, Orwell), to "re-educate" students to think of themselves as a "group" (collectivism, Orwell), to demonize, suppress or outlaw opinion that does not agree with the proscribed ideology of the collective, (see the incidents they cite of students on a number of campuses recently being banned from displaying American flags or slogans, having pro-American rallies) etc. I know these are not strictly found within the works of Karl Marx, but using "Marxism" in the context that it came to be known with regard to oppressive Communist, totalitarian systems, I think there is a direct connection, which again, found its genesis in the ideologies and agendas of Marxist teachers on American campuses in the 60s. You mentioned that you did not experience any of this in college in the 80s, and I wonder if maybe that influence was dampened a bit in the Reagan years. Wasn't being a preppie/yuppie kind of the "in" thing at that point? Maybe certain teachers felt a little buried in the "capitalist" avalanche of those years ;-) I mentioned to Kate that I would research more evidence to support my points but that it would take some time. I cannot write a total thesis on this overnight or provide you with extensive examples immediately. What concerns me, however, is that even if I did send reams of reams of evidence, it would not convince some people and then I have to go around and around again. It's not the end of the world for me not to have people believe it's true. I wish more people would acknowledge it, even though it may go against their ideals, but at some point it's maybe just something people have to come to know on their own. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 22:39:12 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: FIRE/ "The Shadow University" more (njc) Also, there is discussion on the website which I'm too tired to go find right now cautioning against "Left Fundamentalism" and "The Stalinization of English." This seems to be a direct nod towards "Marxism." Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 02:31:00 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: What's the matter with kids today? Bad music! NJC My new neighbor Dave, who at 24 years old is exactly half my age, invited me to go to a bar with him tonight for $1 Rolling Rock night. I've never been to this particular bar before -- called One Up because it's on the second floor of a building in downtown Providence -- because it attracts, well, kids. It's mainly a Brown University and Rhode Island School of Design hangout -- "Sort of a punk place," Dave said -- and sure enough, I was by far the oldest person in the bar, although there were young people there I knew and I was not made to feel at all unwelcome. So what were they playing on the sound system all night? The Who, Neil Young and Dylan. Go figure. After last call (Bartenders hollering at the top of their lungs, "The bar is closed. Get the fuck out right now!"), I asked Dave on the way home why most of the music we heard tonight came out when I was about 18. He said, "Because music today sucks." I tried to explain to him what I've learned from this list -- that his generation's music doesn't necessarily suck, although today's music marketing is horrendous. But I don't think he really believed me. My guess is that he thinks I lived through some kind of magical renaissance that can never happen again. Dave is an aspiring actor, a filmmaker, and an intelligent, creative young man. The friends he introduced me to were all interesting, aware and lively people. The fact that the "voice" of their generation has been hijacked by so many prepackaged and downright bland performers is, I think, a travesty. When I think of all the artists I was exposed to at his age, and all the talented performers of his generation who will never be brought to the forefront by today's music industry, it just makes me angry and sad. But I'm probably preaching to the choir in this forum. That's all for now. Good night. --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 23:44:59 -0700 From: "Brenda J. Walker" Subject: Re: FIRE/ "The Shadow University" (njc) On 24 Oct 2001, at 22:29, Kakki wrote: > > > Did you read the introduction? I did read the introduction. I've also read other commentary about the book, both favorable and unfavorable. And most of the commentary seems to point to examples in the book of student cases since the whole anti-PC movement began (roughly around 1990). So personally, I will be more inclined to buy the connection to the 60's as outlined in the introduction, if it is about more than speech codes and the "PC" era because I'm of the opinion that the PC phenomenon is not of a Marxist origin. And it's a far cry from totalitarianism in my book. I really would love to see the case made with examples from the 60's on, not just from the 90's. On the campus where I attended college, "political correctness" and multiculturalism was a response to blatant and acknowledged racist acts by the administration, campus police and students. The trouble is that it has gone too far in the other direction. What I've read so far about the book leads me to believe that the writers make their case that individual liberties have been compromised by speech codes and that there is a lack of due process on campus. However, I want to see how they prove the re-education to collectivism. These are two separate things to me. I'll let you know what I think after I read it. You mentioned that you did not > experience any of this in college in the 80s, and I wonder if maybe that > influence was dampened a bit in the Reagan years. Wasn't being a preppie/yuppie > kind of the "in" thing at that point? Maybe certain teachers felt a little > buried in the "capitalist" avalanche of those years ;-) lol! You've got to be kidding.... I was in college from '84-'88 and in my crowd being a "yuppie" was considered shallow. And I was Republican! ; ) I don't think anything was dampened. I think it just wasn't there. In fact there were plenty of capitalists among the faculty who didn't hesitate to spin their positions to get hefty fees for speaking engagements. And some of them had really amazing book deals! ; ) > > I mentioned to Kate that I would research more evidence to support my points but > that it would take some time. I cannot write a total thesis on this overnight > or provide you with extensive examples immediately. What concerns me, however, > is that even if I did send reams of reams of evidence, it would not convince > some people and then I have to go around and around again. It's not the end of > the world for me not to have people believe it's true. I wish more people would > acknowledge it, even though it may go against their ideals, but at some point > it's maybe just something people have to come to know on their own. I think the question is what are we acknowledging. Hell, there are people who spend their every day working lives studying and writing position papers on this stuff. We are certainly not going to be able to contribute to the canon in our spare time in the wee small hours of the morning! And nor should we feel obligated to. I happen to enjoy these discussions, but changing minds is not on my agenda. Exposure to new people and new ideas is what I'm after. And if it's not fun.... Brenda n.p.: Leno ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2001 #514 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?