From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2001 #513 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Thursday, October 25 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 513 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- RE: marxist teachers/Gil-White speaks for himself (njc) ["Brenda J. Walke] time to go (njc) [Anne Sandstrom ] (Fwd) RE: Marxist teachers/Gil-White speaks for himself (njc) ["Pitassi,] Special Day (NJC) [Susan Guzzi ] Subject: NJC Ryan Adams "Gold" ["Kate Bennett" ] more letters njc ["Kate Bennett" ] Unknown Lyrics of Slouching Toward Bethlehem [Nuriel Tobias ] Re: Richard Gere's comments [FredNow@aol.com] Re:Joni and Incredible String Band [Gertus@aol.com] Re: Joni and Incredible String Band [FredNow@aol.com] Re: Richard Gere's comments [jan ] Re: Richard Gere's comments NJC [Vince Lavieri ] Re: Richard Gere's comments NJC [jan ] Re: Richard Gere's comments - What's the big deal? [Merk54@aol.com] RE: Richard Gere's comments NJC ["Deb Messling" ] Richard Gere and H. R. Clinton NJC [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: Richard Gere's comments NJC ["Victor Johnson" ] RE: Unknown Lyrics of Slouching and 1 more [Nuriel Tobias ] Re: Mr. Kratzman [Catherine McKay ] Re: and the Oscar goes to [Catherine McKay ] Re: and the Oscar goes to [Catherine McKay ] RE: Gil-White speaks...horoscope (njc) ["Brenda J. Walker" ] Re: Richard Gere's comments NJC ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Richard Gere and H. R. Clinton NJC [JRMCo1@aol.com] Re: Richard Gere's comments NJC ["Kakki" ] Re: Richard Gere and H. R. Clinton NJC ["Kakki" ] Re: (Fwd) Re: Marxism/Is Gil-White a Marxist? No. (NJC) ["Kakki" ] Re: and the Oscar goes to (NJC) [Coyote4Joni@aol.com] Re: Richard Gere and H. R. Clinton NJC ["J. R. Mills" ] Re: Marxism to Libertarianism (NJC) ["Brenda J. Walker" ] priceline question NJC [Yael Harlap ] Re: FIRE/ "The Shadow University" (njc) ["Brenda J. Walker" Subject: RE: marxist teachers/Gil-White speaks for himself (njc) On 24 Oct 2001, at 13:23, Kate Bennett wrote: > LOL Brenda, how down to earth you are! > I think my time in the music business served to completely dispel any traces of timidity I may have had before! ; ) Brenda n.p.: Shelby Lynne - "Bend" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 17:15:04 -0400 From: Anne Sandstrom Subject: time to go (njc) In a little while I'll start the prep for the surgery (don't ask...). I don't know that I'll be in any shape to do email tomorrow. So, thank you everyone for all your love, prayers, messages, and support. If you happen to think of me Friday afternoon (surgery's at 1:00, should last 2-3 hours) that would be great. I hope that by this time next week I'll be home and cancer-free. lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 16:20:27 -0500 From: "Pitassi, Mary" Subject: (Fwd) RE: Marxist teachers/Gil-White speaks for himself (njc) Kate responded, to what Brenda had previously written: "LOL Brenda, how down to earth you are! >>>Rather than try to speculate or imply as to what Professor Gil-White's position is, I decided to ask him.<<<" Me now: Brenda, God (Goddess) Bless You!! Mary P. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 14:31:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Special Day (NJC) Well Happy Happy Happy Birthday to YOU Mags! I hereby declare that you celebrate for the next 365 days and then - what the hell - start all over again! May all your wishes and dreams come true not only today but every day! Shine on Mags - you rock girl! Peace & Love Susan Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 14:10:41 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Subject: NJC Ryan Adams "Gold" I bought it yesterday, have listened to some of it so far...my first reaction was I could hear The Band influence in him very much...more later... Bob said >>>Yes indeed..it's something ELSE! Reminds me a lot of some of The Band's recordings, in terms of it's genuineness and musicality. Ryan obviously pulls from a lot of sources, and he really mixes things up.<<< ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 14:20:09 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: more letters njc I followed one of the links from the Common Dreams site to Peace Action & there found some interesting letters. One is from a brother of one of the victims of 9/11 & another from a former marine to the president. If anyone is interested here is the link. http://www.peace-action.org/911statement.htm ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 15:01:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Unknown Lyrics of Slouching Toward Bethlehem Anyone blessed with a finer sense of hearing than myself would be very kind to tell me what is Joni singing in the end of nearly every chorus of Slouching Toward Bethlehem. After the line "...to be born" Joni's back voices go "oh-wwwwweeeeee" and then a line that sounds like "hell of a man" and then a line that sounds like "a shimmering iron" (only sounds like, for both lines). I'm 100% positive Joni's singing words in both cases. Been trying to solve this riddle ever since i first heard the song. Please help. Lots of love and life to ya', Nuri _____________________________________________________________ Free email, web pages, news, entertainment, weather and MORE! Check out -------------------------------> http://wowmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 19:04:35 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: time to go (njc) dear anne, as we say here: merde merde merde! [that is supposed to bring good luck!] love and good vibes, wally Anne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 18:08:14 EDT From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: Richard Gere's comments Ain't nothin' wrong with what he said. - -Fred In a message dated 10/24/01 3:59:59 PM, les@jmdl.com writes: >"Hi New York. > >I just hope Clemens wins tomorrow -- that's all I care about. This is, >this is, this is something I think we're all going to remember for the >rest of our lives. This is the moment when we needed to be healed. And >when music showed us the way. Music does what it does best, it helps us >to heal. And I think in this situation right now, when, when we have >the possibility of taking this energy -- this horrendous energy that >we're >all feeling -- and the possibility of turning it into more violence and >revenge -- we can stop that. We can take that energy and turn it into >something else -- we can turn it into compassion, into love, into >understanding. (crowd boos) > >That's apparently unpopular right now, but that's alright. > >My friends right now are the cops, the firemen, the emergency workers. > >Those are the ones who don't ask if you're a good guy or a bad guy if >they're going to save you. They don't ask what your religion is when >they save you. They just do it because it need to be done. (crowd cheers) > >That's the heart that I'm talking about, that's compassion, that's >the real thing. That's what we all need to aspire to. Before introducing >our final New York film tonight, I just want to remind you to call the >number on your screen or go to the Web address to donate to the New York >Fund. And if you haven't given anything yet, now's the time to do it. > >Just call up and make your donation. Now if you've already given -- see >if you can dig into your pocket a little more -- cause it's really needed >now. > >In the midst of our grief for the lives that were lost on September 11th, >many voices have emerged to help us understand the meaning of this tragic >and historic event. Among the most poignant is that of Ric Burns whose >epic series on PBS "NEW YORK: A DOCUMENTARY FILM" aired its final episode >just two weeks after the tragedy. People most needed it to restore a >vibrant vision of New York to our national consciousness. > >"NEW YORK: A DOCUMENTARY FILM" celebrates the richness and diversity >of America seen through the lens of its greatest city, New York City." > > >(End of Richard Gere's comments, film excerpt is then shown) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 18:11:47 EDT From: Gertus@aol.com Subject: Re:Joni and Incredible String Band n a message dated 24/10/01 15:08:26 GMT Daylight Time, pdcmusic@freeuk.com writes: > > At the time I was living in Oxford and vividly > remember seeing Robin Williamson and Mike > Heron of the ISB at the Town Hall. Still love their > early material, particularly 'October Song' from > their first album (one of Dylan's favourites, too, I > see in this Dirty Linen article http://www.futuris.net/linen/feature/32isb. > html > and 'The First Girl I Loved' from their second album > '5,000 Spirits or the Layers of the Onion'. Those are great songs, Paul, and I didn't realise Dylan was a fan. I expect you've heard Bert Jansch's recent version of October Song have you? It's on his Crimson Moon album. 5,000 Spirits is my favourite String Band album. I have often wondered if there is a link between ISB's "Somewhere in my mind there is a painting box" and Joni's "I am a lonely painter, I live in a box of paints" and if so, which came first. Don't suppose I'll ever know! > > > Changing the subject, I went to the annual rally of the BMG Federation on > > Sunday - the most old-fashioned gathering of amateur musicians you could > > find. My friend and I won the duet category so are feeling chuffed > especially > > as one of the judges, and later performers, was Simon Mayor. Very cool! > > Many congratulations, Jacky - Simon Mayor is an internationally > renowned player - so very cool indeed!! I imagine you've visited > his www.mandolin.co.uk website. Have you seen any of his > instructional videos? Would you recommend? > Yes, I've been visiting Simon's website for a number of years now, although it doesn't change much. I haven't seen any of his videos although I probably should have a look at them. I've looked at some of his tutor books and they seem good, especially the celtic one. I've seen him play a couple of times and have some of his albums. I particularly enjoyed seeing his "Mandolinquents" band, including Gerald Garcia on guitar, play. I was extremely lucky to have the classical player, Alison Stephens, as my teacher, but, sadly, she's now too busy being famous to teach me any more. Best wishes Jacky ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 18:12:09 EDT From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni and Incredible String Band >Did anyone on the list go to that festival [1969 Big Sur Festival]? I can't remember. - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 15:05:00 -0700 From: jan Subject: Re: Richard Gere's comments >In a message dated 10/24/01 3:59:59 PM, les@jmdl.com writes: > >>"Hi New York. >>I just hope Clemens wins tomorrow -- that's all I care about. This is, (snip) >>(End of Richard Gere's comments, film excerpt is then shown) This was the only thing that bothered me. I HATE Roger Clemens. - -jan (national leaguer at heart) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 18:19:25 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: Richard Gere's comments NJC jan wrote: > >In a message dated 10/24/01 3:59:59 PM, les@jmdl.com writes: > > > >>"Hi New York. > >>I just hope Clemens wins tomorrow -- that's all I care about. This is, > (snip) > >>(End of Richard Gere's comments, film excerpt is then shown) > > This was the only thing that bothered me. I HATE Roger Clemens. > -jan > (national leaguer at heart) I am an American Leaguer and I can't stand Clemens either. But try as I can, apart from that Clemens reference, I can't find a thing that Gere said that would cause offense to anyone. (the Rev) Vince ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 15:22:52 -0700 From: jan Subject: Re: Richard Gere's comments NJC (snip) >I am an American Leaguer and I can't stand Clemens either. > >But try as I can, apart from that Clemens reference, I can't find a thing >that Gere said that would cause offense to anyone. > >(the Rev) Vince Me neither. - -jan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 18:35:17 EDT From: Merk54@aol.com Subject: Re: Richard Gere's comments - What's the big deal? Simon, Thanks for reprinting Gere's comments from the other night. I watched the telecast, and while I remember thinking it took alot of balls to say what he said, personally I was kind of glad he said it. What better demonstration of our strength and our freedom, than to have him address that particular crowd and say the things he said. Were his comments inappropriate? To some people, I'm sure they were. Were they insensitive? Based upon the people in the audience, I would say they probably were. However, I totally support his right to say what he said (and at the risk of being labeled anti-American myself, I agreed with him, at least in sentiment). If we've reached a point where someone can't speak out in favor of compassion, love and understanding, without being labeled an embarassment to the American people, then the terrorists have scored a much bigger victory than anyone is admitting to. Jack ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 18:40:29 -0400 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: RE: Richard Gere's comments NJC I can't either, and I am a complete hawk on the issue of this war, and NOT a Richard Gere fan. So go figure. > But try as I can, apart from that Clemens reference, I can't find a thing > that Gere said that would cause offense to anyone. > > (the Rev) Vince - ----------------------------------- Deb Messling =^..^= - ----------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 18:52:15 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Richard Gere and H. R. Clinton NJC In a message dated 10/24/01 5:20:32 PM, revrvl@chartermi.net writes: << I can't find a thing that Gere said that would cause offense to anyone. >> I agree. And although I try to stay out of these political discussions, I have to say that it's just too bad that these firemen and police officers -- whose epic bravery and dedication to their jobs have made them heroes to people all over the world -- didn't choose to take the high road that night. Especially at a time when we really do need heroes. Putting the whole Richard Gere debacle aside for a moment, I am also saddened that they booed and jeered Hillary Rodham Clinton. I know she is probably one of the most hated people in American history, but I wish she had been treated with more respect. She is, after all, a US Senator and a former First Lady. And whether she was there to honor the victims and the heroes of September 11 or to further her own agenda, the event was neither the time nor the place to engage in such boorish behavior. I am no fan of Senator Clinton, but I see no reason for her or anyone else -- with the exception of bin Laden himself -- to have been treated so badly at this event. --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 18:54:02 -0400 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Re: Richard Gere's comments NJC > I can't either, and I am a complete hawk on the issue of this war, and NOT > a Richard Gere fan. So go figure. I'm not a Richard Gere fan at all (can't stand his acting) but I didn't find anything offensive in what he said either and honestly thought it was pretty balanced and down to earth. Victor in Athens Victor Johnson http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson "Velveteen rabbits and moonbeams, Come when you lay down your head. While you are sleeping, they kiss you and tell you, That you are the reason the sun lights the sky." Scarlet-V. Johnson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 18:59:27 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Dylan writing autobiography NJC There is an article (well, actually it's more like an announcement) about Dylan writing his autobiography on Salon.com. You can read it at: http://www.salon.com/books/wire/2001/10/24/dylan/index.html --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 20:25:46 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: marxist teachers/Gil-White speaks for himself (njc) LOL brenda!!! this is so cool! are you a capricorn? wallyK, very saturn-like when it comes to communications - -----Mensaje original----- De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de Brenda J. Walker Enviado el: Miircoles, 24 de Octubre de 2001 06:05 p.m. Para: Kate Bennett CC: joni@smoe.org Asunto: RE: marxist teachers/Gil-White speaks for himself (njc) I think my time in the music business served to completely dispel any traces of timidity I may have had before! ; ) Brenda n.p.: Shelby Lynne - "Bend" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 20:27:19 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Unknown Lyrics of Slouching Toward Bethlehem ''head of a man, shape of a lion''. the apocalypses beast. wallyK - -----Mensaje original----- De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de Nuriel Tobias Enviado el: Miircoles, 24 de Octubre de 2001 07:02 p.m. Para: joni@smoe.org Asunto: Unknown Lyrics of Slouching Toward Bethlehem Anyone blessed with a finer sense of hearing than myself would be very kind to tell me what is Joni singing in the end of nearly every chorus of Slouching Toward Bethlehem. After the line "...to be born" Joni's back voices go "oh-wwwwweeeeee" and then a line that sounds like "hell of a man" and then a line that sounds like "a shimmering iron" (only sounds like, for both lines). I'm 100% positive Joni's singing words in both cases. Been trying to solve this riddle ever since i first heard the song. Please help. Lots of love and life to ya', Nuri _____________________________________________________________ Free email, web pages, news, entertainment, weather and MORE! Check out -------------------------------> http://wowmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 00:39:44 +0100 From: "brian symes" Subject: thanks joni Dear Joni I really love your two paintings "wtcyard" and "wtctower" I converted the two paintings into .wmp files and used them for the background graphic's on my computer. The yard painting gives me smiles but the tower painting gives me tears. I have been in love with both your music and art work since your first album. Love Brian Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 16:48:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: RE: Unknown Lyrics of Slouching and 1 more Oh, The Sphinx. (I was so used to the "shaped like a lion, it has the head of a man" line that i just couldn't get it right, not to mention the fact that Joni always printed nearly every lyric) So does it mean the song is...mmm...Egyptian? (The desert sands, the falcons..) THANK YOU, Wally! Wally, just another question, ok? The credits for "Tiger bones" say Joni's vocals are in it. Am i wrong to say that i DON'T hear any voice there or have i gone deaf?... Nuri - --- "Wally Kairuz" > wrote: >''head of a man, shape of a lion''. the apocalypses beast. >wallyK > >-----Mensaje original----- >De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de Nuriel >Tobias >Enviado el: Miircoles, 24 de Octubre de 2001 07:02 p.m. >Para: joni@smoe.org >Asunto: Unknown Lyrics of Slouching Toward Bethlehem > > >Anyone blessed with a finer sense of hearing than myself would be very kind >to tell me what is Joni singing in the end of nearly every chorus of >Slouching Toward Bethlehem. After the line "...to be born" Joni's back >voices go "oh-wwwwweeeeee" and then a line that sounds like "hell of a man" >and then a line that sounds like "a shimmering iron" (only sounds like, for >both lines). I'm 100% positive Joni's singing words in both cases. Been >trying to solve this riddle ever since i first heard the song. Please help. > >Lots of love and life to ya', >Nuri > > > >_____________________________________________________________ >Free email, web pages, news, entertainment, weather and MORE! >Check out -------------------------------> http://wowmail.com _____________________________________________________________ Free email, web pages, news, entertainment, weather and MORE! Check out -------------------------------> http://wowmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 19:56:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: October 24 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Happy birthday, sweetie, uh, Mags. Sorry, late as usual. Will everyone please stop posting for a while? - --- Brian Gross wrote: > IT'S MAGS' BIRTHDAY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > yessssssssssssssssssssssssssssss > > She is the love of my life > and today I would like her to know just how special > she is to me and to all of us. > > Happy Birthday Sweetie > > love, > Brei > xoxox > > ===== > After twenty-three years you'd think I could find > A way to let you know somehow > That I want to see your smiling face > Forty-five years from now. > > --Stan Rogers > Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. > http://personals.yahoo.com Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 20:18:51 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: New Joni paintings from LA Times Magazine Jim wrote: > Just wanted to let everybody know that I put up images of those two new > paintings that Joni completed shortly after the World Trade Center disaster. > Just go from the link that appears with the blurb on the news page, or if if > you want go directly to the paintings at > . > > I'm so glad some of us got to hang out together in Toronto -- what an > incredible experience! There'll be updates on Harbourfront appearing over > the next week (probably in installments), as soon as I can pull things > together. So stop by! > > jj Jim, way cool thing to do, thank you. The second picture is something I want to get ideas on... It sure does look as if she (or whoever the hand belongs to) is holding a Bible, maybe a complete Bible, maybe a New Testament, since the word "Gospel" means "good news" and the word "news" appears on the book cover under the cross - - I have not been knowledgeable on the imagery in Joni's work... so I am very interested in anyone's interpretations of that drawing, including Kakki and Stephen who may have discussed these paintings with Joni - (the Rev) Vince ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 19:19:03 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: hilary clinton njc I am also saddened > that they booed and jeered Hillary Rodham Clinton. I know she is probably one > of the most hated people in American history, but I wish she had been treated > with more respect. She is, after all, a US Senator and a former First Lady. > And whether she was there to honor the victims and the heroes of September 11 > or to further her own agenda, the event was neither the time nor the place to > engage in such boorish behavior. > --Bob I agree Bob; with the bad behavior. I am a fan of Hilary and when I read your post I was not happy to hear of what had happened. Had not bothered to read the speech, just reading the posts, for no fan of Gere either. mack ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 20:22:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Mr. Kratzman - --- Jerry Notaro wrote: > I used to use Joni's lyrics when I taught Jr. High > English. And once > used the entire Tommy work for an extended study, > music and lyrics. > Years later I still get comments from grown men and > women how much it > meant to them and how much more they understood them > because of it. > I used Joni's lyrics in a Grade 10 English project. It was going to use lyrics of a bunch of rock/folk singers, but it ended up being entirely Joni. I hope everyone had a Mr Kratzman or a Mr Notaro or a Ms Suze or a Senor Kairuz at one point in their life - it makes everything worthwhile. Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 20:24:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: and the Oscar goes to - --- Anne Sandstrom wrote: > Has someone else already proposed this? > > I suggest our own Claudia should play Joni. > > Now the REAL question is - who should play Bob > Muller (since he IS in the > bio after all...) > Excellent idea! For Bob, maybe... Paul Newman, if you could de-age him. Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 20:26:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: and the Oscar goes to - --- JRMCo1@aol.com wrote: > Great casting call! Claudia should play Joni for > sure. As to who plays Bob Muller...Richard Gere, of > course. ;-) > LOL - Gere was my second choice after a younger Paul Newman! Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 17:50:07 -0700 From: "Brenda J. Walker" Subject: RE: Gil-White speaks...horoscope (njc) On 24 Oct 2001, at 20:25, Wally Kairuz wrote: > LOL brenda!!! this is so cool! are you a capricorn? > wallyK, very saturn-like when it comes to communications > I'm actually Sagittarius (with Scorpio rising I think. . . ) B n.p.: Nuyorican Soul - "It's Alright, I Feel It" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 18:03:43 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Fw: A Good Chuckle njc A little humor related to some recent posts about corporate-speak. Mark E. > > > > > > Subject: A Good Chuckle > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We have all been to those meetings where someone wants > > > > "more than 100%." > > > > Well here's how you do that. Here's how you can > > > > achieve 103%. First of all, here's a little math that > > > > might prove helpful in the future. How does one > > > > achieve 100% in LIFE? Begin by noting the following. > > > > > > > > IF : > > > > > > > > A = 1 > > > > B = 2 > > > > C = 3 > > > > D = 4 > > > > E = 5 > > > > F = 6 > > > > G = 7 > > > > H = 8 > > > > I = 9 > > > > J = 10 > > > > K = 11 > > > > L = 12 > > > > M = 13 > > > > N = 14 > > > > O = 15 > > > > P = 16 > > > > Q = 17 > > > > R = 18 > > > > S = 19 > > > > T = 20 > > > > U = 21 > > > > V = 22 > > > > W = 23 > > > > X = 24 > > > > Y = 25 > > > > Z = 26 > > > > > > > > Then: > > > > > > > > H A R D W O R K = > > > > 8+1+18+4+23+15+18+11 = Only 98% > > > > > > > > Similarly, > > > > > > > > K N O W L E D G E = > > > > 11+14+15+23+12+5+4+7+5 = Only 96% > > > > > > > > But interesting (and as you'd expect), > > > > > > > > A T T I T U D E = > > > > 1+20+20+9+20+21+4+5 = 100%..... This is how you > > > > achieve 100% in LIFE. > > > > > > > > But EVEN MORE IMPORTANT TO NOTE (or REALIZE), is > > > > > > > > B U L L S H I T = > > > > 2+21+12+12+19+8+9+20 = 103% > > > > > > > > So now you know what all those high-priced > > > > consultants, upper management, and motivational > > > > speakers really mean when they want to exceed 100%! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 18:04:46 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Richard Gere's comments NJC > Thank you for posting this. All of the sound bytes pull from the middle of his > comments, so it's nice to see the whole thing. > > Brenda And personally I fail to see what was so damn incendiary or insensitive or stupid about them. Mark E. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 21:08:00 EDT From: JRMCo1@aol.com Subject: Re: Richard Gere and H. R. Clinton NJC Smurf writes: > Putting the whole Richard Gere debacle aside for a moment, I am also > saddened > that they booed and jeered Hillary Rodham Clinton. I know she is probably > one > of the most hated people in American history, but I wish she had been > treated > Is it that bad? I thought Linda Tripp had a stranglehold on the "most hated" mantle... and then there's McVay. Mind boggles when I think of the reception that tipsy "band of brothers (and sisters)" at the concert would've given the likes of him or Tripp. But that's neither here nor there... Had I been Sen. Clinton, I might've steered clear of the event, or made my appearance very early on, if I knew alcohol was being served. Gere, too. New York is still New York. Moreover, Joni's been booed more times than you can shake a stick at. Remember how they mercilessly booed Kris Kristofferson at the Isle of Wight, while he was playing "Me and Bobby McGee" no less? They booed Sen. Clinton, then First Lady, in effect, when she tried to see the right thing done on healthcare early in her husband's administration. They booed and jeered Gandhi, King and Jesus. Being booed can be a red badge of courage and honor. Blessed is she who is persecuted for righteousness sake, right? Or as MLK, Jr. put it: "Unearned suffering is redemptive." - -Julius np: Dave Weckl - "Live at Yoshi's" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 17:59:08 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Richard Gere's comments NJC > And personally I fail to see what was so >damn incendiary or insensitive or stupid about >them. O.K. to all of you who disagree with my opinion, I get the message. Taken on the flat page five hdays later they sound innocuous. Taken in the context of the event at the moment it happened, it struck the audience and myself as insensitive. And I also felt uneasy about the boos given to him and Hillary Clinton. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 18:01:40 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Richard Gere and H. R. Clinton NJC Julius, > Had I been Sen. Clinton, I might've steered clear of the event, or made my > appearance very early on, if I knew alcohol was being served. Gere, too. > New York is still New York. Lots of reports out there that Hillary made some nasty remarks about the NYPD/police officers in the past and that is part of the reason she was booed. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 18:18:44 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: (Fwd) Re: Marxism/Is Gil-White a Marxist? No. (NJC) Brenda, Thank you so much for asking the Professor about where he stands. It helps me understand more where he is coming from. I think, but can't say for certain, that Libertarians largely are anti-war and pacifist. I draw that conclusion from some of the literature my Libertarian friends have been passing on to me the past two months. You wrote: > I firmly believe that drawing such conclusions >and making these claims without some type of >supporting evidence does a grave disservice >to the individuals who sacrifice to serve as >educators in our country and to people >outside of our country who will develop >perhaps a distorted picture of who we are as >a nation. I think exactly the same can be said about many other unsupported claims and conclusions which are made here on the list. I could provide support for my experiences, claims and opinions but I don't think the audience here is really all that receptive to hearing them and would rather "shoot the messenger." Today, by accident I came across and organization whose purpose seems to support some of what I've claimed. I'll forward it in another email. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 21:41:17 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Richard Gere's comments NJC << Taken in the context of the event at the moment it happened, it struck the audience and myself as insensitive. >> And this was my first thought as well...I read it a couple of times, in a couple of different ways, and saw how it could be harmless one way and incendiary the other. Bob NP: Ian Shaw, "Calling You" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 21:46:45 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: NJC Re: Mr. Kratzman << I hope everyone had a Mr Kratzman or a Mr Notaro or a Ms Suze or a Senor Kairuz at one point in their life - it makes everything worthwhile. >> My favorite (professional) teacher was Mrs. Steiner, my 11th grade English teacher. She was very encouraging in regards to my creative writing. (We had to keep a journal and turn it in every week). Then there was Mrs. Klemkowsky, my 4th grade teacher, who wrote this on my report card (which I still have & cherish): "Bob sometimes gets lost in foolish behavior. I'm sure he will outgrow this." NOT! :~D Bob PS: Paul Newman! Damn, did you make my day or what?! ;~) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 21:47:44 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: NJC just a curiosity maybe someone can explain Vince Lavieri wrote: > http://news.excite.com/news/ap/011016/03/iran-hostages > > Bush Loses Bid to Stop Iran Testimony > > Updated: Tue, Oct 16 3:01 AM EDT > > By PETE YOST, Associated Press Writer > > WASHINGTON (AP) - The Bush administration lost a court battle to > block testimony against Iran by former U.S. hostages > who said they should receive compensation because they were > "America's first victims of terrorism." > > With Iran condemning the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks against the > World Trade Center and the Pentagon, government lawyers > asked a judge to dismiss a lawsuit by the ex-hostages held captive > for 444 days in 1979-80 when Iranians overran the U.S. > Embassy in Tehran. > > "The U.S. government ought to be ashamed of itself" because it is > playing "a surrogate role for Iran," Barry Rosen, the former > embassy press attache in Tehran, said in an interview before he > testified Monday about his captivity. > > "I believe the U.S. government is doing this only because of the > events of September 11," Rosen said. > > One of his attorneys, Terrance Reed, said the former hostages from > the Tehran embassy and their families were "America's first > victims of terrorism." > > Iran condemns the U.S.-led military strikes to punish the prime > suspect, Osama bin Laden, and Afghanistan's ruling Taliban > officials who harbor him. But Iran also opposes the Taliban, > calling its puritanical version of Islam an affront to the faith and > accusing it of profiting from drug smuggling that passes through > Iran. Iran has provided arms to the northern alliance rebels > seeking to overthrow the Taliban. > > In court papers, the Justice Department said the government sought > "the prompt termination" of the lawsuit in part "to protect > the nation's foreign policy and national security interests > generally." > > "Notwithstanding how it may appear ... we're not intervening to > defend the interests of Iran," Justice Department lawyer James > Gilligan said in court Monday. > > U.S. District Judge Emmet Sullivan said it was "totally > inexcusable ... outrageous" that the administration waited until last > Friday afternoon to notify the court it was intervening in the > nine-month-old case. > > Sullivan, who will decide how much compensation to grant, refused > to block testimony in which witnesses described beatings, > mock executions and pistols being held to their heads by Iranian > security forces. > > "Shoot me, don't burn me," Al Golacinski said he yelled to his > captors who held "intense heat" of some kind to his face while > he was blindfolded. > > The judge said that "maybe one of the reasons" Iran chose not to > participate in the case "is that that their actions are > indefensible." > > But the judge cautioned the ex-hostages and their families that > the government's legal arguments "are not insignificant" and that > he will have to consider the motion to dismiss the case later this > year. > > Gilligan said the two-decade-old accord that freed the hostages > prohibited claims against Iran. The hostages say a 1996 > anti-terrorism law trumps the accord because Iran is on the State > Department list of terrorist nations. The Justice Department > says Iran wasn't put on the list until several years after the > 1979-80 hostage-taking. > > Retired Army Col. Charles Scott, an ex-Green Beret, testified that > one of his captors was an Iranian government official who > told him, "You're as good as dead." > > Awarded a Silver Star and three Bronze Stars for his bravery in > battle, Scott said his captors told him at one point, "We may > send you back to the North Vietnamese." > > During nearly a month of interrogation, Scott said, he was kicked, > spat on, beaten with a rubber hose while tied to a desk and > led into trees while blindfolded. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 18:34:42 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Foundation for Individual Rights in Education (njc) I found this site today purely by accident but felt it was sympatico to some of my views regarding the stifling of certain opinion and the dominance of other opinion in the education system. It appears to be balanced in that its directors seem to be comprised of 2 traditional liberals and one conservative. For those who are really interested in seeing another side of the fence that is not given much press or public discussion, this provides some food for thought. Kakki "FIRE is a nonprofit educational foundation devoted to free speech, individual liberty, religious freedom, the rights of conscience, legal equality, due process, and academic freedom on our nation's campuses" http://www.thefire.org/index.php3 http://www.thefire.org/offsite/data/shadow_intro.html http://www.thefire.org/offsite/data/shadow_contents.html http://www.thefire.org/issues/terror_original.php3 http://www.thefire.org/dirstaff.php3 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 20:55:54 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: Shoot the messenger njc > I think exactly the same can be said about many other unsupported claims and > conclusions which are made here on the list. I could provide support for my > experiences, claims and opinions but I don't think the audience here is > really all that receptive to hearing them and would rather "shoot the > messenger." > > Kakki I agree Kakki and was thinking the exact same thing earlier today as I read the posts to you. No expert on Marxism here and never had any experience with that kind of thinking here in Texas but I enjoyed your posts, understood what you were saying, and agreed with your points. No bullets here. Please keep posting. Mack ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 22:01:02 EDT From: Coyote4Joni@aol.com Subject: Re: and the Oscar goes to (NJC) In a message dated 10/24/01 12:39:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time, JRMCo1@aol.com writes: << Great casting call! Claudia should play Joni for sure. As to who plays Bob Muller...Richard Gere, of course. ;-) >> Only if Jane Sieberry plays herself as Bob's love interest. :-) No regrets, Coyote Rick Casa Alegre Hollywood, California ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 19:03:35 -0700 From: "J. R. Mills" Subject: Re: Richard Gere and H. R. Clinton NJC > Lots of reports out there that Hillary made some nasty remarks about the > NYPD/police officers in the past and that is part of the reason she was > booed. > > Kakki She did? I'm curious to see what she actually said. If she did what you describe, I say more power to her. This is the same police force that broke a broomstick off in a detainee's rectum just a year ago. Same force that emptied their clips on an innocent bystander, not much more than a year ago. Still, I doubt that Senator Clinton would make an issue of that on this occasion, under the circumstances. She's just smarter than that. - -Julius > > Had I been Sen. Clinton, I might've steered clear of the event, or made my > > appearance very early on, if I knew alcohol was being served. Gere, too. > > New York is still New York. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 19:54:46 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Richard Gere and H. R. Clinton NJC Hi Julius, > She did? I'm curious to see what she actually >said. I'll let you do the searches. Something about calling cops "murderors" who were later found innocent, and some people spiiting on some cops protecting her at some event. >If she did what you describe, I say more >power to her. Really? >This is the same police force that broke > a broomstick off in a detainee's rectum just a >year ago. Same force that emptied their clips >on an innocent bystander, not much more than >a year ago. That's terrible. > Still, I doubt that Senator Clinton would >make an issue of that on this occasion, under >the circumstances. She's just smarter than >that. By this logic, if she were honest about how she felt about them, she would have been even smarter not to have attended a function celebrating them, right? Whatever. Those terrible police and firemen have been put back into their places by the elite for their transgressions last weekend. You can find how they've been slapped down by other searches out there in the news. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 20:14:35 -0700 From: "Brenda J. Walker" Subject: Re: Marxism to Libertarianism (NJC) On 24 Oct 2001, at 18:18, Kakki wrote: > Brenda, > > Thank you so much for asking the Professor about where he stands. Your welcome! > I think, but can't say for certain, > that Libertarians largely are anti-war and pacifist. I draw that conclusion > from some of the literature my Libertarian friends have been passing on to me > the past two months. From the Libertarian Party web site ( http://www.lp.org/ ): "The Libertarian Party is committed to America's heritage of freedom: individual liberty and personal responsibility a free-market economy of abundance and prosperity a foreign policy of non-intervention, peace and free trade." Also from a Libertarian Party press release "Online Survey: LP members support military strikes against terrorists" ( http://www.lp.org/press/archive.php?function=view&record=541) "Libertarian party members and supporters believe the U.S. government 'has an obligation to bring the terrorists who are responsible for the September 11 attacks to justice," and strongly support military strikes against Osama bin Laden and his terrorist network, according to a new survey." I strongly suggest reading the rest of the release. It is very enlightening. Of course there are conditions to the statement above. For instance, notice that the support is for strikes against bin Laden. Not against a government. (That's one of the first things I noticed. But that whole discussion is for another thread!) And there is also some mention about wariness from survey respondents concerning infringements on civil liberties that may result from anti-terrorist legislation. It's certainly an alternate view that can't be easily dropped into an anti-war box. A non-interventionist foreign policy does not equal anti-war and pacifist nor does it equal Marxism. I think it's perhaps more fair not to try to characterize the entire party since it probably covers a spectrum of beliefs radiating from its core philosophies, just like the other U.S. political parties. These complex issues and positions have varying degrees. > I could provide support for my > experiences, claims and opinions but I don't think the audience here is really > all that receptive to hearing them and would rather "shoot the messenger." I hope you will provide the support for what you believe and that you will call people out to substantiate what they claim as well. Don't be deterred; as you may know you have to work harder to present your position when it is a minority view. I've certainly been faced with it enough in my life to know. And as you can tell I'm of the school that facts are more persuasive than an insistent tone. I also think that it is helpful to separate opinion based on personal experience from fact. It's the way I learned to ensure a fulfilling and rewarding debate. And I'm certainly open to hearing other suggestions in that regard; I'm more than a decade out of college but I still fall back on what I learned in my philosophy classes. (And I still read the Socratic dialogues from time to time. I'll have to remember that one for the next desert island thread. : ) > Today, by accident I came across and organization whose purpose seems to support > some of what I've claimed. I'll forward it in another email. Please do. I would love to see it. Brenda n.p.: Wynonna - "Only Love" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 23:19:14 -0400 From: "jlamadoo, home account" Subject: Re: Globe and Mail article, njc To Deb Messling, God, thanks for writing on JMDL again. To all, I read about an hour's worth of Karen O'Brien's book last night and I'm hooked. She has tons of references from the past 3 years crammed into the introduction. Any author who quotes a Zen philosophy about every person is an Artist of Life, has my vote big time! Yeah, she knows all about every single reference in North American culture (Ally McBeal/Joni trivia, "Almost Famous"/Joni trivia, etc, etc) but she doesn't just catalog these mentions but frames them according to what they signify to Joni or to our culture. In short, Karen O'Brien most definately "GETS IT". Lama np: Japanese pressing of THSOL. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 20:21:37 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Marxism to Libertarianism (NJC) Thanks Brenda, I personally did not think that Libertarians were totally anti-war or pacfist but had received Libertarian literature from a couple friends which was anti-war and pacifist in the very strictest sense of no involvement at all. Maybe there is a strict anti-war group within the larger group, just as in the other mainstream political parties. I like a lot of Libertarian thought and > A non-interventionist foreign policy does not equal anti-war and pacifist nor > does it equal Marxism. No, no, I know that and never meant that. That's why I think I should probably stop getting involved in these aspects of the discussion because the way I am communicating seems to be causing more misunderstanding and long drawn out re-statements. I also am getting resentful of being misquoted or taken out of context, too, so. What I've said or thought I said was that political groups which are against the U.S. seem to be, in some instances, starting an anti-war movement which is really more about just finding yet another way to undercut what the U.S. policy is right now, because they are essentially against the U.S. system. I also mentioned that there are sincere, American anti-war movement leaders who are now seeking to separate themselves from those which have ulterior motives. I learned about this directly from the antiwar.com website, as I recall. They mentioned wanting not to be associated with certain radical socialist and Marxist (their words) anti-war groups. > I think it's perhaps more fair not to try to characterize the entire party > since it probably covers a spectrum of beliefs radiating from its core > philosophies, just like the other U.S. political parties. These complex issues > and positions have varying degrees. I know. I just don't like them or their agenda and I'm entitled to my view. I shouldn't have to somehow bow down before them to make others happy or apologize for being critical of their ideology. > I also think that it is helpful to separate opinion based on personal > experience from fact. I think I've usually always indicated where it was my personal experience and opinion. A lot of fact evolves from personal experiences, however. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 00:41:14 -0400 From: Yael Harlap Subject: priceline question NJC Hey all- wanna hear my sad story? that $143 fare? gone. i decided to go to LA and screw responsibility within 24 hours of the fare being posted... but it was already gone. And now it is at $250 and I can't afford it. i'm contemplating trying priceline and naming $145 as my price to see if i get a flight for that long weekend - what do I have to lose? anybody? has anyone used priceline and had good/bad experiences? if you could email me personally, it would be great! thanks, buds. - -yael (who has much to say to bob about tori amos but who will refrain for now!) yharlap@yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 22:12:08 -0700 From: "Brenda J. Walker" Subject: Re: FIRE/ "The Shadow University" (njc) Yes, "The Shadow University." I had heard about this book from a friend who was an assistant professor of history at Penn. At first glance it seemed like spawn of "Illiberal Education" and the much publicized "anti-PC" movement of the early 90's. I just requested a copy because I would like to see if/how they draw the line from 60's Marxist ideology to today's campus. That particular connection is not evident from what is listed on the web site. Has anyone read this book? Care to share your opinion? Brenda n.p. Elton John - "I Want Love" On 24 Oct 2001, at 18:34, Kakki wrote: > I found this site today purely by accident but felt it was sympatico to some of > my views regarding the stifling of certain opinion and the dominance of other > opinion in the education system. It appears to be balanced in that its > directors seem to be comprised of 2 traditional liberals and one conservative. > For those who are really interested in seeing another side of the fence that is > not given much press or public discussion, this provides some food for thought. > Kakki ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2001 #513 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?