From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest)
To: joni-digest@smoe.org
Subject: JMDL Digest V2001 #509
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JMDL Digest Tuesday, October 23 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 509
The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be
found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news,
a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more.
The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains
interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more.
==========
TOPICS and authors in this Digest:
--------
Re: NJC Gere being booed/the buddhist perspective ["Brenda J. Walker"
]
RE: Shadows and Light The Definitive Biography [Anne Sandstrom ]
Re: Kiki & Herb in SF [NJC] [Richard Goldman ]
Re: And the Oscar goes to JMDL [jan ]
(no subject) ["Sharon L. Buffington" ]
Re: "Smut" on the list! A suggestion (NJC) [christopher blake ]
Re: the 4th estate (NJC) ["Sharon L. Buffington" ]
Re: Radio Paradise & Joni [SCJoniGuy@aol.com]
Re: the 4th estate (NJC) ["Kakki" ]
RE: the 4th estate (NJC) ["Pitassi, Mary" ]
Re: Quick Hits (NJC) long [FredNow@aol.com]
Re: the 4th estate (NJC) ["Sharon L. Buffington" ]
Re: And the Oscar goes to JMDL [FredNow@aol.com]
Re: Shadows and Light The Definitive Biography ["Paul Castle" ]
Re: the 4th estate (NJC) ["Victor Johnson" ]
Re: the 4th estate (NJC) ["Kakki" ]
Re: the 4th estate (NJC) ["Kakki" ]
Re: the 4th estate (NJC) ["Kakki" ]
Re: NJC [Vince Lavieri ]
Re: NJC: RICHARD GERE @ THE CONCERT FOR NYC [FredNow@aol.com]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 08:37:08 -0700
From: "Brenda J. Walker"
Subject: Re: NJC Gere being booed/the buddhist perspective
On 23 Oct 2001, at 11:39, Richard Stevens wrote:
>
> If America was Buddhist, it would have been destroyed and overun long ago,
>
Who said anything about America becoming Buddhist?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 08:49:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Lori R. Fye"
Subject: Family stuff (NJC)
I haven't been around in a few days ... my mom had what was expected to be
a routine surgery last Thursday, but things got very complicated for her.
I left work Thursday around 4 pm and drove to the Canton, Ohio area. The
trip took about 7 hours after I got through DC metro traffic and hauled
ass at 85 miles per hour afterwards. I hadn't played Blue in quite awhile
but it seemed to be the perfect CD right then ...
To attempt to shorten the story, as of yesterday evening Mom was in pretty
good spirits despite being in the Cardiac Care Unit with tubes and wires
everywhere. She's fiesty enough to have pulled out her ventilator and IG
tubes (which resulted in soft restraints on her wrists), and although she
can't talk she manages to give her nurses a hard time. She makes faces at
family members and has even managed a few smiles. (Thankfully, due to my
grandparents having 10 kids, there are a big bunch of us who are all
interested in visiting Mom, and the hospital has been very lenient about
the definition of "immediate family.")
So ... neurologically, spiritually, and emotionally, Mom is doing okay.
The bummer part of the story is that she has some sort of blood infection,
cause unknown, and her kidneys are working very well. So she's not out of
the woods yet.
Please send up a prayer for my mom, "Queen" Ida, who plays the accordion
pretty darn well and who gave me my love for music.
Thanks,
Lori
in MD
~
Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
http://personals.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 11:52:00 -0400
From: Anne Sandstrom
Subject: RE: Shadows and Light The Definitive Biography
IT'S HERE!!!! I just got the biography. I can't possibly thank you enough,
Paul! I just flipped to the photos - I love the one with the painting of the
Gap ad. And I love how Karen titled the chapters - very appropriate!
So, I'm off to start reading.
THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!
lots of love
Anne
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 12:03:24 -0400
From: "Janine Sherman"
Subject: Toronto events
Dear jmdlers,
I promise to report on my thrilling experience when my feet touch the
ground. Ashara has reported so swifty with such breadth, Mags with such
interpretation and poise, and Jimmy with his sharp wit (I would have
collasped and knocked her over had it not been for those two gorgeous,
warm guys holding me up.) I will share my perspective tinged with the
emotions from which I am still reeling....soon, very soon. Thanks Rick
and Jimmy for being there when I needed two guys just like you!!! ( and
for putting up with my off -key- albeit -soft singing along!) Love,
Janine
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 09:07:14 -0700
From: Richard Goldman
Subject: Re: Kiki & Herb in SF [NJC]
Jerry,
I am going to go. It says they start at 8pm, and I can't get there
til 9:15 . . . They won't start right on time though, right?
I've got a group I do from 7 til 9 on Thursdays, so . . . I'll go
right after that.
I've seen John Kelly too, here in SF, at what was Josie's Cabaret and
Juice Joint, gone now.
Thanks!
Richard
- --------
At 8:22 AM -0400 10/23/01, Jerry Notaro wrote:
>Richard Goldman wrote:
>
>> I post this announcement for the upcoming rare show in SF, because....
>> they do Joni Mitchell song(s) as part of their act. New Yorkers will
>> know them well...
>>
>> [10-25] Kiki and Herb at the Great American Music Hall
>
>> If you are anywhere near - GO. They are wonderful. I see them often at
>> Fez, Joni's NYC favorite, and the place where John Kelly is appearing
>> presently.
>
>Jerry
>
>np: Diana Krall - Do It Again
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 09:11:40 -0700
From: jan
Subject: Re: And the Oscar goes to JMDL
>Let's say you were a big movie director and you had all the budget in the
world to make the first "The lives and loves of Joni" movie for the big
screen. Who would you choose to play Joni? And the other leading roles? If
you got Joni to play a part in your film (not as herself) what would it be?
What location would you choose? How would you name your film? What would be
the first scene and the last one?
>Nuri
Actresses I'd consider:
1. Roseanna Arquette
2. Molly Parker
3. Deborah Unger
4. Lisa Kudrow (if a comedy)
- -jan
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 12:39:56 -0500
From: "Sharon L. Buffington"
Subject: (no subject)
Joni is on Bravo...as I write this..
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 10:51:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: christopher blake
Subject: Re: "Smut" on the list! A suggestion (NJC)
- --- "Pitassi, Mary" wrote:
> Dolphie Bush wrote, in response to Christopher
> Blake:
>
> " If you, Mr. Blake,
> are allowing kids access to this site, then that is
> your fault, not the
> people who are doing the posting, and furthermore,
> using profanity does
> not
> make one a purveyor of smut. I suggest you find
> yourself a site more
> appropriate for you if you do not like what is
> written here. "
>
> Mack, I love your posts, but I think Mr. Blake has a
> point. As I read
> his original e-mail, he was not requesting that the
> JMDL not enter into
> discussions which might include profanity, but only
> that profanity not
> be displayed in subject lines, which tend to be
> highlighted in bold
> until a message is read (at least, that is the case
> in Windows Outlook).
> And I didn't get the sense that Christopher was
> "allowing kids access to
> this site," but only that he was afraid that they
> might see the f-word
> "prominently displayed" in the subject line as they
> wandered by.
>
> Some on this list access the JMDL from work, and
> others might not wish
> their own children to see certain subject lines at
> home.
>
> I have a modest proposal. As a courtesy to our
> fellow listers and their
> various circumstances, why don't we just agree to
> try to keep
> commonly-recognized profanities out of subject
> headings?
>
> Mary P.,
> donning her labor-and-employment-attorney hat (sort
> of).
>
> P.S. Apologies if this has already been covered;
> I'm on digest.
mary,
thank you for taking the time to understand my
intentions perfectly with regard to my post. it is
very much appreciated. btw, my place of employ is a
middle school in ct.
have a pleasant day -
christopher
Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
http://personals.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 13:57:53 EDT
From: Relayer211@aol.com
Subject: Re: Shadows and Light The Definitive Biography
In a message dated 10/23/01 11:58:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
asandstrom@macromedia.com writes:
<< IT'S HERE!!!! I just got the biography. I can't possibly thank you enough,
Paul! I just flipped to the photos - I love the one with the painting of the
Gap ad. And I love how Karen titled the chapters - very appropriate!
So, I'm off to start reading.
THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!
lots of love
Anne >>
I will pay you the sum total of $1,000,000 for a copy of that book through
the mail, as soon as possible! Thanks!
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 19:02:57 -0700
From: Richard Stevens
Subject: Re: NJC Gere being booed/the buddhist perspective
on 23/10/01 8:37 am, Brenda J. Walker at brenda@killinggoliath.com wrote:
> On 23 Oct 2001, at 11:39, Richard Stevens wrote:
>
>>
>> If America was Buddhist, it would have been destroyed and overun long ago,
>>
>
> Who said anything about America becoming Buddhist?
Because it was Hyperthetical, why are we having this conversation?
R
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 14:11:18 EDT
From: AsharaJM@aol.com
Subject: Re: Shadows and Light The Definitive Biography
In a message dated 10/23/2001 2:00:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Relayer211@aol.com writes:
> I will pay you the sum total of $1,000,000 for a copy of that book through
> the mail, as soon as possible! Thanks!
>
In my best Dr. Evil voice: One meeeeeeeeeeeeeelion dollars???????? I will
put mine in the overnight mail right NOW!!!!!!!!!!! :-)
Hugs,
Ashara
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 13:20:43 -0500
From: "Sharon L. Buffington"
Subject: Re: the 4th estate (NJC)
Dear Mary, Susan, Kate, and Janene:
Thank you for your articulate and well grounded perspectives. I could
not agree with all of you more strongly. I remember all too well during
the 60's when demonstrating for civil rights and marching against the
viet nam war that we were called names from the taunting crowds on the
sidelines. We were told to "Love America or leave it". To me it was an
example of America's dualistic way of looking at the world.
For many, to love america was to never criticize it and they could not
see that it was because of our constitution and love for this country
and ALL people of the world that we took the position we did. That to
love America was to uphold the tenants of freedom and justice alongside
peace. I lost count of the number of times I was arrested for peacefully
demonstrating and number of blows I took to my face and body by the
police. But I would not change my actions one bit.
We do not show that it is wrong to kill, maim, and assault by killing,
maiming and assaulting. We do not show compassion by pointing the finger
at people who resemble the face of an enemy or terrorist. America does
not have clean hands in much of its involvement throughout the world.
It did not have clean hands when it refused to allow Jews to come to the
US during the Holocaust. It did not have clean hands when it placed
Japanese Americans into internment camps. And it certainly does not have
clean hands with its dealings in the middle east. It did not have clean
hands during the mccarthy era which ruined thousands of lives and pitted
neighbor against neighbor. The 'hunt' for those different than ourselves
flies in the face of true democracy. And too often true democracy is
"The road less traveled".
That notwithstanding does not in any way mean that I do not love my
country or am glad for the personal freedom I feel here. I accept the
good and challenge the bad...and at times I challenge the good when I am
not sure what the good is based upon. I ask lots of questions. :)
Thank you again...you brave and courageous women for speaking up and not
being afraid to state your truth.
Peace.......Sharon
"Pitassi, Mary" wrote:
>
> A couple of points on a dreary, rainy afternoon in the Midwest of the
> U.S.A.
>
> Kakki wrote, in response to the article Kate Bennett posted:
>
> "I would ask first if the professor is a Marxist, and if he is not I
> would
> refer him to this article and then ask him which side he wants to live
> under."
>
> To which I reply: WHOA!!! Are you saying that one has to be, or is
> likely to be, a Marxist to criticize American foreign policy in the way
> that the author of the article has? If so, I must respectfully but
> strenuously disagree. While I have never purported to be anything other
> than a good old-fashioned, died-in-the-wool liberal, I am certainly no
> Marxist, economically or politically. However, I agree with a good many
> of the professor's points.
>
> My favorite is probably, "Stay away from the ridiculous claims that we
> are hated because we respect individual liberties. In the Muslim world,
> over
> and over again, we consistently HAVE NOT respected individual liberties
> but
> rather supported tin-pot dictators." I think that this is,
> unfortunately, all too true, especially in Latin America, as well as in
> the Middle East. But, as that much-maligned Robert Fisk article from a
> while back pointed out (correctly, I thought), when we in the U.S. speak
> glowingly of "individual liberties," we're really talking about the
> liberties of *American citizens,* and not those of the nationals of
> other countries who may well make it possible, directly and indirectly,
> for us to maintain our American lifestyles. And, too often, we're
> referring to the liberties and lifestyles of only *some* American
> citizens, at that.
>
> Kate Bennett then wrote in response:
>
> "All of this to say that what concerns me the most, in this war against
> terrorism, is that it is being reduced to some kind of Batman type of
> scenario of good vs evil. It is far more complex than that. And that
> kind of
> good vs. evil rhetoric is off putting to me. I know I am not the only
> one
> that feels that way."
>
> Kate, this has worried me greatly, too. I am not a pacifist. I do
> believe firmly in our country's right to defend itself in light of the
> attacks of September 11, although, as far I'm concerned, the jury is
> still out on the efficacy of military action against this amorphous,
> multi-national new enemy, organized terrorism. Yet when President Bush
> stated in his speech of September 20 or so that the Taliban hates us
> because of "what they see in these two chambers" (i.e., a democratic
> government), and then proceeded to produce a laundry list of the
> curtailment of individual liberties in Afghanistan, I couldn't help but
> wonder. How is "they hate us because of our devotion to the great
> principles of democracy" conceptually different, in any way, from "they
> hate us for our devotion to the tenets of holy Islam?"
>
> Both statements laud the speaker's group for something recognized by the
> intended audience as a good, and both demonize the Other. Both
> statements appear designed, at least in part, to gear up those audiences
> for a long, protracted fight. Tellingly, however, both neglect to
> mention the down-and-dirty, rough-and-tumble political and economic
> realities that may have contributed far more to this conflict than
> either side's devotion to its respective Greater Good.
>
> Finally, Kate wrote:
>
> "I do believe that in order to "fight" terrorism we need to understand
> why it
> exists. I don't mean trying to understand Osama, but trying to
> understand
> why he appeals to his followers. And why others who do not support his
> terrorist acts still relate to him. What are the conditions that have
> created this situation. And what are the conditions that could alleviate
> this for future generations?"
>
> I agree completely. Let's be united, and let's protect our nation from
> this horrifying threat in the best, most efficient way we can. But
> while we're doing so, let's remember that it is NOT unpatriotic to admit
> that our country has sometimes done wrong. After all, it is composed of
> and led by men and women who, while they may have a great many admirable
> attributes, are also only flawed human beings. Nor is it unpatriotic to
> consider that, although there can be absolutely no justification raised
> for the terrible, violent acts of September 11, 2001, the question of
> justification for the *anger* that fueled those acts is much, much more
> complicated.
>
> Who was it who said, "those who do not master the lessons of history are
> doomed to repeat it?" I fervently hope that we will not be so doomed.
>
> Off my soapbox--back to my listening corner.
>
> Mary P.,
> Madison.
>
> P.S. The view outside my window is starting to look positively
> Hejira-like.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 13:21:35 -0500
From: "Sharon L. Buffington"
Subject: Re: NJC Gere being booed/the buddhist perspective
Because we can...that is why.
Richard Stevens wrote:
>
> on 23/10/01 8:37 am, Brenda J. Walker at brenda@killinggoliath.com wrote:
>
> > On 23 Oct 2001, at 11:39, Richard Stevens wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> If America was Buddhist, it would have been destroyed and overun long ago,
> >>
> >
> > Who said anything about America becoming Buddhist?
>
> Because it was Hyperthetical, why are we having this conversation?
>
> R
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 11:12:35 -0700
From: "Brenda J. Walker"
Subject: Re: NJC Gere being booed/the buddhist perspective
On 23 Oct 2001, at 19:02, Richard Stevens wrote:
> >> If America was Buddhist, it would have been destroyed and overun long ago,
> >>
> >
> > Who said anything about America becoming Buddhist?
>
> Because it was Hyperthetical, why are we having this conversation?
>
> R
>
We are having this exchange (hard to call it a conversation) because I was
wondering what relevance your hypothetical suggestion had to the original
topic.
Just a suggestion: if you are going to change the topic of a thread, it is
usually a good idea to change the subject line to reflect it as such.
Peace,
Brenda
n.p.: Natalie Cole - "This Will Be (An Everlasting Love)"
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 14:17:49 EDT
From: KJHSF@aol.com
Subject: Re: And the Oscar goes to JMDL
Who could play Joni?
Renee Zelwiger, Gwyneth Paltrow, Jodie Foster
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 13:19:14 -0500
From: "Pitassi, Mary"
Subject: RE: the 4th estate (NJC)
A few responses to Kakki's response to me.
First, I wrote, and Kakki responded:
"> My favorite is probably, "Stay away from the ridiculous claims that
we
> are hated because we respect individual liberties. In the Muslim
world,
> over and over again, we consistently HAVE NOT respected individual
liberties
> but rather supported tin-pot dictators."
I think that is really debatable. How can we explain the fact that tens
of
millions of people from South America, Central America, Iran, Palestine,
Iraq, Pakistan, Cuba, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, China, Korea and Russia
have
fled to our country. If we were the "great imperialist Satan" who has
help
ruin their countries and interfered with their "democratic" elections,
why
the hell do so many of them want to come here? The facts belie a lot of
the
criticism against the U.S."
What facts bely the criticism? I'll get to that later.
But as to notion that the fact that millions of people around the world
have immigrated to the United States somehow weakens the assertion that
the U.S. has engaged in systematic interference and suppression of civil
liberties in other countries: I can't agree. That's comparing apples
and oranges. In fact, my original point was, although the U.S. is, for
most U.S. citizens and residents, a beacon of rights and opportunities,
those who have been on the receiving end of U.S. foreign policy have not
always been so lucky. To me, it's no surprise that some have seen the
lay of the land, and decided that they'd much rather be on the inside of
the fence than the outside.
OK, that last was a little glib. Let me be more serious. There will
always be individuals of courage and ambition who will see life in the
U.S. as the best way to further their own personal dreams and to care
for their families. My grandfather, Michael Pitassi, was a shining
example of that. A bright, ambitious boy in the tiny village of Ateleta
in the Abruzzi region of south central Italy, he realized early on that
a life spent in his small town held no promise for him. So, at the age
of 16, speaking no English and armed with only a third-grade education
but having already mastered two trades, he shipped off to the United
States, worked as a butcher to pay the relative who had put up the money
for his passage, switched to what would become a lifetime of work as a
stonemason, and rose to become a partner in his own successful business,
which developed a national reputation within its own niche. He lived to
see two of his children and the first of his six grandchildren graduate
from college, and to hear that first grandchild--me--tentatively begin
to speak of becoming a lawyer. Truly, he crafted a life for himself
that would have been utterly impossible in the village in which he was
born.
But does the fact that Michael Pitassi had the courage and persistence
to take full advantage of an opportunity he saw negate the fact that the
U.S. supported the government of Fulgencio Batista in Cuba before
Castro's revolution in 1959? That U.S. Marines occupied Nicaragua more
or less continuously from 1912-1933, when they were replaced by a
National Guard commanded by Anastasio Somoza, with whom the U.S. enjoyed
quite cordial relations? That the U.S. later overtly and covertly
supported the Contras in that country? That it restored the Shah of
Iran to the Peacock Throne, directly setting in motion the events, and
the reaction to those events, that, in the minds of many, created the
environment in which Islamic fundamentalism would eventually thrive?
And does it negate the increasing evidence that U.S. involvement in the
overthrow of the democratically-elected Socialist government of Salvador
Allende in the 70's extended to the highest ranks of government,
including Henry Kissinger himself? In fact, an edition of "60 Minutes"
detailing those charges had aired here two days before the attacks on
the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. When I first received notice
on my computer that something vague had occurred involving a crash and a
hijacked plane on the morning of Tuesday, September 11, my first thought
was that some terribly confused or deranged relative of a victim of the
Chilean coup was making a tragic statement. The reason? As one who has
lived and studied in Chile, the date of September 11 was already
indelibly etched on my mind. Allende's government was violently
overthrown on September 11, 1973.
Some immigrants made their decision to adopt the U.S. as their new and
permanent home before any of these events happened. Some didn't know
about them. Some would have come anyway, for purely personal reasons.
And yes, some, like the particular U.S. Muslims interviewed for a recent
New York Times article (don't recall the date; could probably find it if
I rummaged around at home), are frank in saying that, even though they
disapprove of many, many components of the "American way of life," they
came here and remain here because they are treated better here than they
would be anywhere else. Which, again, doesn't contradict my original
point.
The U.S. actions described above are FACT. They MUST be considered when
evaluating how we have come to the place in which we find ourselves now.
And second, Kakki wrote:
"The situation now,
our current reality, is that we are suddenly at war and in a state of
emergency. There really are more pressing concerns for Americans right
now
than to be ruminating every day about all the mistakes we made to get us
to
this point. I would rather Nightline be telling me about the latest
Anthrax
or other kinds of attacks, and how the war is affecting our world than
being
lectured about all the actions that have brought us to this point right
now."
But in my view, it is precisely *because* we are in a state of emergency
that it is so crucial that we understand what our role in the world has
been, and how what we actually did has influenced what some terrorist
extremists may believe about us, with varying degrees of accuracy.
Would you want a doctor treating you for Anthrax (and I hope to GOD that
never happens to any of us!!) who understood only imperfectly how
Anthrax works? And without that understanding, how could a vaccine be
developed?
Understanding the whole context, which *definitely* involves the actions
of other countries but also includes those of our own that we may find
less than savory, need not take the form of "ruminating" without action,
or without devising positive changes. Indeed, it will be most effective
if it occurs in conjunction with these other two. But, in my opinion,
it must occur.
T.S. Eliot wrote, in quite another context, "in my end is my beginning."
Here, within the solution *must* be found the fullest possible
understanding of the problem, or we will have learned nothing, and
others, within our borders and without, may be tragically victimized
again.
In respect and friendship,
Mary P.
Wishing my dear grandfather were here to lend his wisdom and vast
insight to my view of the incredible events of the last month and a
half, but knowing that he would have been heartbroken at the direct
attack on the country that he loved.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 13:36:35 -0500
From: "Sharon L. Buffington"
Subject: Re: the 4th estate (NJC)
Dear Mary:
Thank you for your comprehensive viewpoint.
Peace.......Sharon
"Pitassi, Mary" wrote:
>
> A few responses to Kakki's response to me.
>
> First, I wrote, and Kakki responded:
>
> "> My favorite is probably, "Stay away from the ridiculous claims that
> we
> > are hated because we respect individual liberties. In the Muslim
> world,
> > over and over again, we consistently HAVE NOT respected individual
> liberties
> > but rather supported tin-pot dictators."
>
> I think that is really debatable. How can we explain the fact that tens
> of
> millions of people from South America, Central America, Iran, Palestine,
> Iraq, Pakistan, Cuba, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, China, Korea and Russia
> have
> fled to our country. If we were the "great imperialist Satan" who has
> help
> ruin their countries and interfered with their "democratic" elections,
> why
> the hell do so many of them want to come here? The facts belie a lot of
> the
> criticism against the U.S."
>
> What facts bely the criticism? I'll get to that later.
>
> But as to notion that the fact that millions of people around the world
> have immigrated to the United States somehow weakens the assertion that
> the U.S. has engaged in systematic interference and suppression of civil
> liberties in other countries: I can't agree. That's comparing apples
> and oranges. In fact, my original point was, although the U.S. is, for
> most U.S. citizens and residents, a beacon of rights and opportunities,
> those who have been on the receiving end of U.S. foreign policy have not
> always been so lucky. To me, it's no surprise that some have seen the
> lay of the land, and decided that they'd much rather be on the inside of
> the fence than the outside.
>
> OK, that last was a little glib. Let me be more serious. There will
> always be individuals of courage and ambition who will see life in the
> U.S. as the best way to further their own personal dreams and to care
> for their families. My grandfather, Michael Pitassi, was a shining
> example of that. A bright, ambitious boy in the tiny village of Ateleta
> in the Abruzzi region of south central Italy, he realized early on that
> a life spent in his small town held no promise for him. So, at the age
> of 16, speaking no English and armed with only a third-grade education
> but having already mastered two trades, he shipped off to the United
> States, worked as a butcher to pay the relative who had put up the money
> for his passage, switched to what would become a lifetime of work as a
> stonemason, and rose to become a partner in his own successful business,
> which developed a national reputation within its own niche. He lived to
> see two of his children and the first of his six grandchildren graduate
> from college, and to hear that first grandchild--me--tentatively begin
> to speak of becoming a lawyer. Truly, he crafted a life for himself
> that would have been utterly impossible in the village in which he was
> born.
>
> But does the fact that Michael Pitassi had the courage and persistence
> to take full advantage of an opportunity he saw negate the fact that the
> U.S. supported the government of Fulgencio Batista in Cuba before
> Castro's revolution in 1959? That U.S. Marines occupied Nicaragua more
> or less continuously from 1912-1933, when they were replaced by a
> National Guard commanded by Anastasio Somoza, with whom the U.S. enjoyed
> quite cordial relations? That the U.S. later overtly and covertly
> supported the Contras in that country? That it restored the Shah of
> Iran to the Peacock Throne, directly setting in motion the events, and
> the reaction to those events, that, in the minds of many, created the
> environment in which Islamic fundamentalism would eventually thrive?
>
> And does it negate the increasing evidence that U.S. involvement in the
> overthrow of the democratically-elected Socialist government of Salvador
> Allende in the 70's extended to the highest ranks of government,
> including Henry Kissinger himself? In fact, an edition of "60 Minutes"
> detailing those charges had aired here two days before the attacks on
> the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. When I first received notice
> on my computer that something vague had occurred involving a crash and a
> hijacked plane on the morning of Tuesday, September 11, my first thought
> was that some terribly confused or deranged relative of a victim of the
> Chilean coup was making a tragic statement. The reason? As one who has
> lived and studied in Chile, the date of September 11 was already
> indelibly etched on my mind. Allende's government was violently
> overthrown on September 11, 1973.
>
> Some immigrants made their decision to adopt the U.S. as their new and
> permanent home before any of these events happened. Some didn't know
> about them. Some would have come anyway, for purely personal reasons.
> And yes, some, like the particular U.S. Muslims interviewed for a recent
> New York Times article (don't recall the date; could probably find it if
> I rummaged around at home), are frank in saying that, even though they
> disapprove of many, many components of the "American way of life," they
> came here and remain here because they are treated better here than they
> would be anywhere else. Which, again, doesn't contradict my original
> point.
>
> The U.S. actions described above are FACT. They MUST be considered when
> evaluating how we have come to the place in which we find ourselves now.
>
> And second, Kakki wrote:
>
> "The situation now,
> our current reality, is that we are suddenly at war and in a state of
> emergency. There really are more pressing concerns for Americans right
> now
> than to be ruminating every day about all the mistakes we made to get us
> to
> this point. I would rather Nightline be telling me about the latest
> Anthrax
> or other kinds of attacks, and how the war is affecting our world than
> being
> lectured about all the actions that have brought us to this point right
> now."
>
> But in my view, it is precisely *because* we are in a state of emergency
> that it is so crucial that we understand what our role in the world has
> been, and how what we actually did has influenced what some terrorist
> extremists may believe about us, with varying degrees of accuracy.
> Would you want a doctor treating you for Anthrax (and I hope to GOD that
> never happens to any of us!!) who understood only imperfectly how
> Anthrax works? And without that understanding, how could a vaccine be
> developed?
>
> Understanding the whole context, which *definitely* involves the actions
> of other countries but also includes those of our own that we may find
> less than savory, need not take the form of "ruminating" without action,
> or without devising positive changes. Indeed, it will be most effective
> if it occurs in conjunction with these other two. But, in my opinion,
> it must occur.
>
> T.S. Eliot wrote, in quite another context, "in my end is my beginning."
> Here, within the solution *must* be found the fullest possible
> understanding of the problem, or we will have learned nothing, and
> others, within our borders and without, may be tragically victimized
> again.
>
> In respect and friendship,
>
> Mary P.
> Wishing my dear grandfather were here to lend his wisdom and vast
> insight to my view of the incredible events of the last month and a
> half, but knowing that he would have been heartbroken at the direct
> attack on the country that he loved.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 11:48:12 -0700
From: "Brenda J. Walker"
Subject: Interesting & Diverse Streaming - Radio Paradise - NJC
For those of you looking for diverse radio to listen to at work (or home) ,
check out Radio Paradise.
Here's their playlist for the last 6 hours (it updates real time with each song
played):
http://www.radioparadise.com/index.php3?content=playlist
Elvis Costello, Beth Orton, Zeppelin, Marley, Steve Earle, Emmylou, David Gray
and my favorite ice princess Sam Phillips among others......pretty cool.
n.p.: Marley - "Concrete Jungle"
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 15:07:39 EDT
From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com
Subject: Re: Interesting & Diverse Streaming - Radio Paradise - NJC
<>
And NO Joni in the last six hours? What kinda paradise is that? ;~)
Seriously, looks like an eclectic mix, I'll check 'em out, Brenda.
Bob
NP: Neil Norman, "The Perfect Wave"
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 12:29:59 -0700
From: "Brenda J. Walker"
Subject: Radio Paradise & Joni
Joni gets some love from these guys and their audience....
Check this out:
http://www.radioparadise.com/index.php3?song_id=1621
You can do an artist search under Music and it find all of the Joni songs which
they've played in the past. I was surprised to see "Passion Play" there.
B
n.p.: Patti Smith - "Dancing Barefoot"
On 23 Oct 2001, at 15:07, SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote:
> <>
>
> And NO Joni in the last six hours? What kinda paradise is that? ;~)
>
> Seriously, looks like an eclectic mix, I'll check 'em out, Brenda.
>
> Bob
>
> NP: Neil Norman, "The Perfect Wave"
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 15:52:38 EDT
From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com
Subject: Re: Radio Paradise & Joni
The link you gave me was to listener's comments about Coyote, but that was cool. I did a search on Joni and saw their playlist for her. A bit disappointed that "Passion Play" & "Nothing Can Be Done" were the only post-70's songs listed. Permeates the myth of Joni being only a "classic rock-era" artist. :~(
And if you look at the individual songs, you get listener's comments...I got a chuckle from what this guy said about "Scarlett"...
"getting a little tired of all the Joni lately...and this seems to be quite a forgettable song to me..."AM gold" here we go. "
Of course, the next comment was very complimentary and compared it to a Donald Fagen melody. I still can't picture the Dan singing Carey...
Bob
NP: Jon & The Nightriders, "Depth Charge 95"
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 13:12:08 -0700
From: "Kakki"
Subject: Re: the 4th estate (NJC)
I think I'll just throw the towel in and say you that everything you believe
is right and I everything I say is wrong. The U.S. is a horrible country,
full of stupid and evil people. There is no hope for us except for the
enligthened ones who will show us the new world order. I will obey their
guidance.
Kakki
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 15:20:07 -0500
From: "Pitassi, Mary"
Subject: RE: the 4th estate (NJC)
Kakki:
Of course I don't believe that, and I think that, if you have carefully
read my posts this week and over the past five years, you are well aware
of that.
It's not "all or nothing"; "right or wrong." This is not a time for
imprisoning ourselves in dichotomies. It's a time for embracing and
understanding shades of grey.
We refuse to do so at our peril.
Mary P.
- -----Original Message-----
From: Kakki [mailto:KakkiB@worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2001 3:12 PM
To: Sharon L. Buffington; Pitassi, Mary
Cc: joni@smoe.org; kate@katebennett.com; revrvl@chartermi.net
Subject: Re: the 4th estate (NJC)
I think I'll just throw the towel in and say you that everything you
believe
is right and I everything I say is wrong. The U.S. is a horrible
country,
full of stupid and evil people. There is no hope for us except for the
enligthened ones who will show us the new world order. I will obey their
guidance.
Kakki
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 16:26:12 EDT
From: FredNow@aol.com
Subject: Re: Quick Hits (NJC) long
Susan Guzzi wrote:
>what would happen? We may actually encourage & spread
>the words of peace, love & understanding - and what's
>so funny 'bout that?
Absolutely nothing! (one great song quote deserves another)
>I remember this time called the 60's when everything
>that young people & black people talked about & fought
>for seemed soooo impossible, radical - out of the norm
>... but almost everything from there is pretty common
>place today and has been for 30 years now.
Oh, Susan, how I wish that were true.
- -Fred
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 15:34:48 -0500
From: "Sharon L. Buffington"
Subject: Re: the 4th estate (NJC)
Dear Kakki:
I am sorry if you have misunderstood me...if anything I have attempted
to say that it is not good to think dualistically...right or wrong
...good or bad. Rather that it is better for our emotional quality of
life to see that there are more options than that.
Peace.......Sharon
Kakki wrote:
>
> I think I'll just throw the towel in and say you that everything you believe
> is right and I everything I say is wrong. The U.S. is a horrible country,
> full of stupid and evil people. There is no hope for us except for the
> enligthened ones who will show us the new world order. I will obey their
> guidance.
>
> Kakki
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 16:26:08 -0400
From: "Victor Johnson"
Subject: For Cheryl Wheeler Fans (njc)
Concert Review:
Cheryl Wheeler weaved a magic spell over the Cactus Cafe in Austin
Friday night. After opening with "Driving Home," she sang a song
inspired by her 50th birthday this summer. She explained that the song
had been written shortly before September 11 and that she doubted she
could have written it after, since it was titled "I Love Afghanistan."
(She was kidding about the title.) After one song, she tuned her guitar
with her electronic tuner and noted the strange notion of tuning by eye
rather than by ear.
She sang of her experience with Fleet Mortgage Company and the
difficulty she had getting a mortgage, attributing the problem to the
necessity of writing "Songwriter" on the occupation line. She asked if
Fleet was the same company that makes enemas. Her lovely "When Fall
Comes to New England." was introduced as a seasonal song, a subject she
tries to avoid. There is little occasion, she noted, for a song about
July 19, and even less for Tuesday, July 19. Between songs she put on
her glasses, explaining that she can't hear without them on. She took
them off during the songs to avoid them slipping down her nose. She
sang "75 Septembers," the lovely ode to her father, written for his 75th
birthday 11 years ago. She noted that she wasn't sure how old HE was,
but that all of his children were senile.
She closed her set with what she described as her two worst songs. The
first was written when the "song god" visited her on a walk in the
fields. She noted that the "song god is a moody drunk" and that you
must "sing it or your head will blow up." The song is set to the chorus
of the Mexican Hat Dance and her greatest difficulty in composing the
piece was getting the repeated use of the word "potato" to end on its
final syllable. This was followed by "I'm going to Poop in the Handy
House." Her roommate had rented a porta-pottie (a "Handy House") for a
construction job and asked Cheryl if she should ask her crew to limit
their use of it to "number 1." Cheryl thought up the song while on tour
and left verses on her roomie's phone service (which were in turn posted
on other machines) Cheryl is an amazing performer whose writing, both
serious and silly is a complete delight.
Dan Eggleston
Austin TX
Capybaras International
Victor Johnson
http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson
"Velveteen rabbits and moonbeams,
Come when you lay down your head.
While you are sleeping, they kiss you and tell you,
That you are the reason the sun lights the sky."
Scarlet-V. Johnson
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 16:36:09 EDT
From: FredNow@aol.com
Subject: Re: And the Oscar goes to JMDL
Nuriel Tobias wrote:
>If you got Joni to play a part in your film (not as herself) what would
>it be?
I'd have to think about the other parts, but this one popped right into my
head:
Joni would play Georgia O'Keefe
- -Fred
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 21:36:34 +0100
From: "Paul Castle"
Subject: Re: Shadows and Light The Definitive Biography
Relayer211@aol.com wrote:
> I will pay you the sum total of $1,000,000 for a copy of that book through
> the mail, as soon as possible! Thanks!
>
Ashara AsharaJM@aol.com beat me to it
> In my best Dr. Evil voice: One meeeeeeeeeeeeeelion dollars???????? I will
> put mine in the overnight mail right NOW!!!!!!!!!!! :-)
OK, I can do you a copy of the new edition of the Hinton biography
for a once-in-a-life-time-knock-down bargain price - I'm not asking
$750,000 - I'm not asking $500,000 - 100,000 smackeroonies and
it's yours!!!!
PaulC
PS. If you need more convincing, here's a couple of the enthusiastic
'reader reviews' of Hinton's 'Both Sides Now' on Amazon.com - see
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/books/1860741606/glance/002
- -7211564-5880040
(surprisingly, neither of these are quoted on the jacket of the new edition!)
>10 of 10 people found the following review helpful:
>Both sides together!, August 13, 2000
>Reviewer: MR R J KNOTT from Hemel Hempstead, Herts United Kingdom
>Being a long-time fan of Joni, I approached this book with interest
>but quickly realised I should adopt caution. Not only was it constantly
>repetitive... (yes, you just told us the opening song of the tour gigs two
>pages ago!)... but it was full of contradictions: so who WAS Carly
>Simon's "You're so vain" written about? Most embarrassing of all was
>the author's misunderstanding of the American term "suspenders"
>(the British equivalent is "braces" - i.e. elastic supports for men's
>trousers (pants)).. and thus wrongly accused James Taylor of being
>a cross-dresser! And as for the 1996 report that Joni gave birth at the
>age of 52 in 1996.... really?
>23 of 23 people found the following review helpful:
>Perhaps Hinton should play Mitchell's 'Help Me'., January 28, 1999
>Reviewer: rdale@erisco.imshealth.com from New York , NY
>It's ironic (and perhaps moronic) that Hinton should choose none
>other than Joni Mitchell as a subject for a biography. Not only is
>Mitchell one of the most gifted and literate songwriters of the 20th
>Century, she is also one of the most iconoclastic, as well...shunning
>publicity that most 'rock stars' consume with a spoon. And its these
>circumstances which point out the failings in this dismal read: Hinton
>can't write and what he has written are quotes of Mitchell herself when
>she has deigned to submit to personal interviews. It's appalling that
>the publisher went ahead with such a shoddy and thoroughly
>uninformative book about one of the great pop icons of our century.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 13:38:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Yarbrough
Subject: Re: the 4th estate (NJC)
- --- Kakki wrote:
> I think I'll just throw the towel in and say you
> that everything you believe
> is right and I everything I say is wrong.
Which still casts everything in the black or white
terms of useless binarism. Don't know into whom
you're throwing the towel, because not one of the
jmdlers mentioned espoused such a stark or simplistic
view.
I just hope the straw man now knocked down doesn't
catch fire. We're all in danger if don't learn to see
gray.
- --Michael, metaphor happy
NP: Mary J. Blige, "Family Affair"
=====
___________________________________________________________________________
"[Naipaul] is devoutly read wherever literacy in English prevails, as well as in parts of America."
- --Gavin McNett, "The Black Sheep." http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2001/10/14/naipaul/index.html
Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
http://personals.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 16:41:47 -0400
From: "Victor Johnson"
Subject: Re: the 4th estate (NJC)
> > There is no hope for us except for the
> enligthened ones who will show us the new world order. I will obey their
> guidance.
>
> Kakki
So everything on the X-files is true? Are the aliens really coming???
Victor
Victor Johnson
http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson
"Velveteen rabbits and moonbeams,
Come when you lay down your head.
While you are sleeping, they kiss you and tell you,
That you are the reason the sun lights the sky."
Scarlet-V. Johnson
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 13:37:51 -0700
From: "Kakki"
Subject: Re: the 4th estate (NJC)
> It's not "all or nothing"; "right or wrong." This >is not a time for
imprisoning ourselves in >dichotomies. It's a time for embracing and
> understanding shades of grey.
>We refuse to do so at our peril.
I believe the same but am apparently unable to effectively communicate in
this forum on these matters towards any worthwhile purpose.
Kakki
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 13:43:50 -0700
From: "Kakki"
Subject: Re: the 4th estate (NJC)
Hi Michael,
Nice to see you back. What have you been up to? ;-)
> Which still casts everything in the black or white terms of useless
binarism. Don't know into whom you're throwing the >towel, because not one
of the jmdlers mentioned espoused such a stark or simplistic
> view.
There are lots of things that are grey and there are some things that are
black and white to me, and I'd say everyone else here. Our black and whites
differ sometimes, however, and you just can't make grey out of them no
matter how much you try.
Kakki
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 13:45:43 -0700
From: "Kakki"
Subject: Re: the 4th estate (NJC)
> So everything on the X-files is true? Are the >aliens really coming???
I hope so, but they better be cute and sweet and like good 60s music ;-)
Kakki
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 17:05:32 -0400
From: Vince Lavieri
Subject: Re: NJC
"Brenda J. Walker" wrote:
> On 23 Oct 2001, at 11:39, Richard Stevens wrote:
>
> >
> > If America was Buddhist, it would have been destroyed and overun long ago,
> >
>
> Who said anything about America becoming Buddhist?
(Brenda, no one did, but what a cool idea!)
Correct English: "If America were..." not "was."
If the above statement were really true, about if America were Buddhist it
would be destroyed, then I'd be ashamed to be Christian.
But America is a country and a country is neither Buddhist nor Christian, nor
of any other faith.
And what a false sort of a comparable statement anyway. China has been a
predominately Buddhist nation by population for a long time and last time I
checked, still there after all these millennia.
Meanwhile, Jesus was whatever Jesus was and ended up dead.
(the Rev) Vince
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 17:14:44 EDT
From: FredNow@aol.com
Subject: Re: NJC: RICHARD GERE @ THE CONCERT FOR NYC
Thanks for your post, Janene.
Is there anyone among us here that wouldn't like to see complete world peace,
at least as a lovely dream of a goal? But how do we get there? And how has
the endless cycle of violence that is human history worked for us so far? Not
so well? Is it time to try something different ... as Susan said, take the
road less traveled?
You may say that I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one.
- -Fred
------------------------------
End of JMDL Digest V2001 #509
*****************************
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