From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2001 #508 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Tuesday, October 23 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 508 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Today in Joni History: October 23 [les@jmdl.com] Today's Articles: October 23 [les@jmdl.com] And the Oscar goes to JMDL [Nuriel Tobias ] Galeano1 NJC ["Mike Pritchard" ] racketeer for capitalism NJC ["Mike Pritchard" ] Galeano2 NJC ["Mike Pritchard" ] RE: smallpox - njc [M.Russell@iaea.org] IRA (NJC) [Gertus@aol.com] Re: IRA (NJC) ["Kakki" ] Re: IRA (NJC) [Gertus@aol.com] Re: And the Oscar goes to JMDL ["Jamie Zubairi" ] Hobbit Names ["Jamie Zubairi" ] Globe and Mail article ["Deb Messling" ] Re: NJC Gere being booed/the buddhist perspective [Richard Stevens ] Santeria? ["Deb Messling" ] Re: Hobbit Names [Nuriel Tobias ] Re: NJC Gere: treuth or gossip and innuendo? [Richard Stevens ] Re: Kiki & Herb in SF [NJC] [Jerry Notaro ] marxist teachers in the US? (njc) ["mariodet@libero.it"] Re: For Richard Thompson fans in U.S. NJC ["gene mock" ] NJC: RICHARD GERE @ THE CONCERT FOR NYC [Janene Otten ] FYI: Girls and Guitars Concert NJC [HiBill ] love and marriage, love and marriage (NJC) [Emily K Gray ] Re: NJC: RICHARD GERE @ THE CONCERT FOR NYC ["Brenda J. Walker" Subject: And the Oscar goes to JMDL Hello everyone, Let's say you were a big movie director and you had all the budget in the world to make the first "The lives and loves of Joni" movie for the big screen. Who would you choose to play Joni? And the other leading roles? If you got Joni to play a part in your film (not as herself) what would it be? What location would you choose? How would you name your film? What would be the first scene and the last one? Yours, Nuri _____________________________________________________________ Free email, web pages, news, entertainment, weather and MORE! Check out -------------------------------> http://wowmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 10:08:40 +0200 From: "Mike Pritchard" Subject: Galeano1 NJC 1975 Amazon River This is the Father of all rivers; the mightiest river in the world, and the jungle sprouting from its breath is the last lung on this planet. The adventurous and the avaricious have flocked to Amazonia since the first Europeans who came this way discovered Indians with reversed feet, who walked backward instead of forward over these lands promising prodigious fortunes. Since then, all business in Amazonia starts with a massacre. At an air-conditioned desk in Sao Paulo or New York, a corporate executive signs a check which amounts to an extermination order, for the initial job of clearing the jungle begins with Indians and other wild beasts. They give the Indians sugar or salt mixed with rat poison, or bomb them from the air, or hang them by the feet to bleed to death without bothering to skin them, because who would buy the hides? The job is finished off by Dow Chemical's defoliants, which devastated Vietnam's forests and now Brazil's. Blind tortoises stumble about where trees used to be. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 10:06:53 +0200 From: "Mike Pritchard" Subject: racketeer for capitalism NJC >>Mike from Barcelona recently posted a comment from someone in the US military (I can't remember his name or rank) who talked about his role in protecting US corporate interests as being the primary goal of US foreign policy when he was part of the military. (sorry I am paraphrasing, I think this was the gist of his comments...maybe Mike would like to post this again). Debra Shea<< Sure, Debra, I'm always willing to help with info if I can. Here's the quote again. Here's a quote from the life of General Smedley D. Butler, cited in Eduardo Galeano's "Open Veins of Latin America", which in turn gives the source as Leo Huberman 'Man's Wordly Goods' (NY: Monthly Review Press, 1952, p.265) "I spent 33 years and 4 months in active service as a member of our country's most agile military force- the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from a second lieutenant to major-general. And during that period I spent most of my time being a high-class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street, and for the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer for capitalism. Thus I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank to collect revenues in. and I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras 'right' for American fruit companies in 1903." mike BTW I thoroughly recommend ALL the work of Eduardo Galeano. The above extract is from 'Open Veins Of Latin America' which is a wonderful, and depressing, account of the rape of that continent at the hands of colonialist powers. Also highly recommended is his trilogy 'memory of fire' in 3 volumes (natch) called 'genesis', 'faces and masks', and 'century of the wind'. A really beautiful history of the Americas, told in a poetic way but thoroughly grounded in historical fact (if that's not oxymoronic). His shorter works are mostly 'viqetas' (vignettes? what do we say in English?) some of it political, some of it socio-cultural, some of it artistic, ALL of it beautifully written. I think I'll post a couple of short ones, just to give you an idea of it. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 10:25:11 +0200 From: "Mike Pritchard" Subject: Galeano2 NJC "1945: Princeton - Einstein" Albert Einstein feels as if his own hand had pressed the button. Although he didn't make it, the atomic bomb would not have been possible without his discoveries about the liberation of energy. Now Einstein would like to have been someone else, to have devoted himself to some inoffensive task like fixing drains or building walls instead of investigating the secret of life that others now use to destroy it. When he was a boy, a professor said to him: "You'll never amount to anything." Daydreaming, with the expression of someone on the moon, he wondered how light would look to a person able to ride on a beam. When he became a man, he found the answer in the theory of relativity, won a Nobel Prize, and deserved many more for his answers to other questions born in his mind of the mysterious link between Mozart's sonatas and the theory of Pythagoras, or of the defiant arabesques that the smoke from his extra-long pipe drew in the air. Einstein believed that science was a way of revealing the beauty of the universe. The most famous of sages has the saddest eyes in human history. Eduardo Galeano From 'Century of the Wind' (vol 3 of 'Memory of Fire') London: Minerva Books, 1990 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 10:24:53 +0200 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: RE: smallpox - njc I'm posting this to the list, because I made a very careless remark which upset Bob and I want to apologize. I was very careless and I said something very inaccurate and wrong and maybe it upset somebody else out there besides him. In the future I will refer to my sources before posting anything that could be construed as factual (as opposed to personal opinion) so that what comes out of my head, into the keyboard, onto my computer screen, into my email program, out through the servers, over the internet and appears in the JMDL discussion list (I'm sure I left out a few steps somewhere, please correct me if I'm wrong!) is flawless and perfect and won't upset anybody. Dream on.... :^D Marian Vienna + + + + + + + This is what I posted that was so inaccurate: > "The American immigrants intentionally wiped > out much of the Native Indian population by > giving them blankets which had > been used for people who died of smallpox." This is wrong. I mixed up two different sources (which I posted yesterday) - - the one about where some British forces gave infected items to indians and another one about much (all in some places) of the native population in Central America being wiped out by smallpox. On 23 October 2001 06:46, Bobsart48@aol.com [SMTP:Bobsart48@aol.com] wrote: > I am not a historian, and do not profess to know much history. That said, > I do not know whether what you posted about the British soldiers circa the > end of the French and Indian wars resulted in a successful attack, or > whether natural forces were at work (that goes to the difference between > intent and commission). I do not think it really matters in this case, but > in the interest of furthering my education, I will try to pursue it with my > cousin... I would like to hear about what your cousin has to say about it, in the interests of furthering my own education. > That said, I found your choice of words provocative and (for me) rather inflammatory. I apologize for making such a general and largely inaccurate statement. I was in a hurry at the time I wrote it and didn't have time to go back to the sources in order to be more accurate. I didn't mean to be either provocative or inflammatory. I was just careless and I'm very sorry that it was so upsetting to you. I will try to be more careful in the future. > Well, first there was that word "American". I used that because I couldn't remember whether it was the British or the Spanish and I didn't want to be wrong. But I was still wrong because what I said was too general. > I found the term very broad, vague and indistinct, > especially when used in such a pejorative if not > slanderous sense. You are right. The blankets / handkerchiefs incident was a terrible crime which should have been attributed to the right people. > Similarly so for the term "Native Indian population". That was too general also, but more accurate in that a large part of the native population North, Central and South America was wiped out by the disease. > Second, it did sound as though the whole population > was pretty much in on it (which it was not, apparently). That was wrong too. > Third, the British soldiers were not exactly American > immigrants (they were the the military police of the area). Well a lot of them ended up settling here. They didn't all go back to Britain. It was before the Revolution. Everybody was basically an immigrant of some sort or another. "British soldiers" is a convenient way to disown the fact that some of us are probably descended from the likes of them. Anyway, it is impossible to know one way or the other. Maybe we did send all the baddies back to Britain, but I rather doubt it. The source I posted did refer to them as British, though. > I do not know how isolated the intentional acts were - perhaps they were > more prevalent than the isolated ones you cite. As I said, I do not know. I don't know either. I would hope that they were very few. Maybe your cousin can shed some light on the subject. > But you did imply (or at least I inferred - and would do so again) that > the intentional acts of bio-terror led to the wiping out of 'much' of the > Native Indian population. I doubt that it true. I was wrong. I'm sorry. I also doubt that there were many such isolated incidents. > These were much more primitive times, and humans behaved very badly, > not only in America, but pretty much throughout the world. The Native > Indians included - they had been at war with each other for hundreds - > according to my encyclopedia thousands - of years (over the best hunting > grounds, village sites and revenge). Yes. But people are still behaving badly. People are still fighting over territory. I guess things are better today - more people are living in larger numbers in relative peace and fewer equally large groups of people are able to wage war upon them. Ideally everybody should agree to work together for a better place for everyone - to have as a common goal cooperative living and enough for all. There's certainly enough to go around, but it never will as long as there is avarice. Marian ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 05:16:28 EDT From: Gertus@aol.com Subject: IRA (NJC) I know you guys have lots more worrying things to be concerned about close to home, but if anyone is interested to learn more about the IRA's support from North American sources, the British papers are full of it today as it would seem that the events of Sept 11 have resulted in the withdrawal of much of it. Try www.dailytelegraph.com or:- The Daily Telegraph - Leaders Jacky ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 02:35:42 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: IRA (NJC) Thanks Jacky, I've also noticed a few articles the last few days on this which would not have caught my eye without the discussion here. I see this as another positive coming out of tragic events. However, and I'm not trying to be argumentative, just trying to learn more details, the article only states this: "For Sinn Fein/IRA, with its North American fundraising base and its dependence on strong political support from Washington and New York, the World Trade Centre attacks posed particular problems" These remarks seem very general. Why don't they identify exactly who supports them? And don't they receive support from sources other than "North America", "Washington" and "New York"? Is it somehow too inflammatory or politically incorrect to identify exact sources? At any rate, I am glad they have been confronted by current events and know that the war against terrorists does apply to all. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 06:05:17 EDT From: Gertus@aol.com Subject: Re: IRA (NJC) In a message dated 23/10/01 10:41:27 GMT Daylight Time, KakkiB@worldnet.att.net writes: > > Thanks Jacky, I've also noticed a few articles the last few days on this > which would not have caught my eye without the discussion here. I see this > as another positive coming out of tragic events. I agree very much. Some good does seem to come out of evil. However, and I'm not > trying to be argumentative, just trying to learn more details, the article > only states this: > > "For Sinn Fein/IRA, with its North American fundraising base and its > dependence on strong political support from Washington and New York, the > World Trade Centre attacks posed particular problems" > > These remarks seem very general. Why don't they identify exactly who > supports them? And don't they receive support from sources other than > "North America", "Washington" and "New York"? Is it somehow too > inflammatory or politically incorrect to identify exact sources? > At any rate, I am glad they have been confronted by current events and know > that the war against terrorists does apply to all. I'm with you there, too, Kakki. Further research needed in a very complex subject. Some day I'll find the time! Regards Jacky ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2014 11:20:59 +0100 From: "Jamie Zubairi" Subject: Re: And the Oscar goes to JMDL For the older Joni I'd choose Lindsay Duncan, and English actor who just looks absolutlely like her. I went to a Rickie Lee Jones gig here in London a couple of years ago and she was in the audience, I thought that it was Joni! I then thought Joni had hired Lindsay to sit front row centre to put Rickie off her set! But it wasn't the case. I recognised her from the television on film. Notable she was in 'City Hall' with Al Pacino, playing his wife. Maybe for the middle period Joni I would choose...The woman from Thelma and Louise who isn't Susan Sarandon ( I hate not remembering actors' names. I do it so often, more annoying when they're on the tip of my tongue) Much Joni Jamie Zoob - ----- Original Message ----- From: Nuriel Tobias To: Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2001 9:22 AM Subject: And the Oscar goes to JMDL > Hello everyone, > > Let's say you were a big movie director and you had all the budget in the world to make the first "The lives and loves of Joni" movie for the big screen. Who would you choose to play Joni? And the other leading roles? If you got Joni to play a part in your film (not as herself) what would it be? What location would you choose? How would you name your film? What would be the first scene and the last one? > > Yours, > Nuri > > > _____________________________________________________________ > Free email, web pages, news, entertainment, weather and MORE! > Check out -------------------------------> http://wowmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2014 11:24:53 +0100 From: "Jamie Zubairi" Subject: Hobbit Names This might be of vague interest to Jonilistas. With her interest in JRR Tolkien's novels, someone has set about making a website for a Hobbit Name Generator. I must say I prefer the Joni Method of naming names Much Joni Jamie Zoob I don't know whether or not any of you have ever read The Hobbit, but even if you haven't you, like all of us, have a hobbit name. Go here to find out what yours is: http://www.chriswetherell.com/hobbit/ Henceforward, if any of you continue to get pissed off with the leadership of our great party, just remember who they REALLY are. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 06:28:48 -0400 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: Globe and Mail article Sorry if this is old news, but I didn't see it. Wonder, joy and magic Robert Everett-Green Joni Mitchell At the Liberty Grand in Toronto on Friday Joni Mitchell is famous for looking at clouds, and for deciding that "it's clouds' illusions I recall/ I really don't know clouds at all." But it was still a bit startling to discover, during her appearance at the World Leaders festival, that the creator of Both Sides Now and so many other distinctive songs really does look for the secrets of the world in the shapes of clouds and in portents and magic of all kinds. "I have a lot of voodoo following me around, whether I like it or not," Mitchell assured the prosperous-looking audience that had paid up to $175 to dine and bask in her presence. She spoke at length about black, white and red magic, about her discovery that a Nigerian religion she'd never heard of was seriously affecting her life, and about how the island of Jamaica once stopped her from singing or writing and forced her to paint murals. She talked of how on Sept. 11 she sat in front of her TV, snapping photo after photo of the smoke billowing from the World Trade Centre, and of all the shapes she found in those clouds of destruction. Teddy bears, demonic figures, Arab heads in turbans, ravens flying up -- it was all there, and further proof of the mystic psychedelic coherence of the world Mitchell lives in. She has sent dispatches from that world for more than 35 years, building a body of work that's been one of the most inventive and unpredictable in popular music. Nobody who heard Big Yellow Taxi on the car radio in the early seventies could have predicted that the giddy-sounding singer of that frisky hit would have driven so many roads by now. Mitchell began as a folkie, quickly burst the usual harmonic and prosodic boundaries of pop music, and kept on going till she was skirting the horizon with jazz musicians such as Charles Mingus and Herbie Hancock. She made the short forms of the pop lyric her vehicles for a lifelong exploration of the strange realities behind the ordinary face of things. Mitchell in conversation came across as an earthy visionary for whom real magic always leaves a physical trace. Perhaps lots of people have felt some occult truth in the way a candle burns as the air swirls up to a window from the dusty street below, but only Mitchell found a way to ground that particular magic in a precise string of words and harmonies (in Two Grey Rooms, one of two Mitchell songs performed on Friday with terrific probing skill by Rebecca Jenkins). She's a painter, and a lot of her chatter had to do with images and the truth of metaphor. But she's also a storyteller who needs to link those images into narrative. "A lot of my songs are frustrated filmmaking," she said. "They're attempts to tell a cinematic tale." Harbourfront Centre's homage -- or "hommage," as they preciously preferred to call it -- went back to the baby pictures and forward to clips from films and TV shows that have name-checked Mitchell, usually in ways that enforce the notion that her music is "chick music." There were live or taped tributes from Gordon Lightfoot, Hancock and Anjelica Houston, and lots of laudatory speeches written by Barbara Budd and spoken by Jenkins, Brent Carver and Ann-Marie MacDonald. There were performances of her songs by Jenkins and Carver, and by a mongrelized ensemble of piano, cello and Indonesian gamelan instruments. And there was much laboured wrestling with the notion of "creative genius," which -- as at previous World Leaders sessions -- revealed itself to be less a spark for discussion about exemplary artistic work than a way of short-circuiting that discussion. The most revealing part of the evening, apart from Mitchell's funny, nutty chat with Sony Music's Denise Donlon, was Mitchell's performance at the piano and with a set of working tapes for her next album. She improvised at the keyboard for several minutes, producing a quiet chordal jam that bridged the musical worlds of Stephen Foster and Claude Debussy. Then she sang fragments of seven songs from the new disc, including old tunes such as No Regrets Coyote and Cherokee Louise, and new ones such as Be Cool and Slouching Towards Bethlehem, based on her adaptation of the W. B. Yeats poem. Mitchell's unique timing was there, as always, working now through a voice that has smoothly darkened and deepened with the years. The orchestral arrangements -- after last year's Both Sides Now album, she's "addicted" to working with full orchestra -- belonged to the further edge of the pan-tonal jazz universe. As she sang, they became more and more clusteral, drifting in tangled figurations (some devised by long-time collaborator and ex-husband Larry Klein) that refused any clear resolution. There was innocence in these songs ("Yesterday a child came out to wonder") and bitterness as well, notably in a dreamy come-down song that stuck pins in every feature of her star's life, including the "people who have slices of you from the company . . . I guess I seem ungrateful with my teeth sunk in the hand that gives me things I can't give up just yet." But there's still a lot of wonder and joy in Joni Mitchell, as we saw when she caught sight of Arthur Kratzman, her Grade 7 teacher from Saskatoon, whom she routinely credits with opening the door for her early creative efforts. She and he were equally lucky, and equally thrilled to be in each other's company again, as he tried to give Mitchell the Harbourfront World Leaders prize through her many and long recollections of those days in the Prairie school. Forget about genius -- this was an oven-warm slice of real life. For information on the World Leaders Festival: http://www.worldleadersfestival.com. For tickets call: 416-973-4000. - ----------------------------------- Deb Messling =^..^= - ----------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 11:39:41 -0700 From: Richard Stevens Subject: Re: NJC Gere being booed/the buddhist perspective on 22/10/01 6:24 pm, Brenda J. Walker at brenda@killinggoliath.com wrote: > On 22 Oct 2001, at 18:04, Kakki wrote: > > The fact that he was met with such displeasure by >> the audience could be construed to indicate that they were insulted by what >> he >> said. > > I didn't see any of this but if the audience displeasure was expressed so > vehemently, then I am embarrassed for the audience, not for Richard Gere. > > Complete silence would have been more civilized. > > I've been wondering how someone presenting the Buddhist perspective/philosophy > would be received relative to 9/11, especially since the recent pleas for > tolerance have been focused on Islam and Christianity (with Judaism factored > in > because of the Israel-Palestine conflict). Will we only advocate tolerance > when the conflict at-hand calls for it? > > The sad fact is that we as a nation need a wider perspective on more faiths > and > views that are held by smaller groups of our citizens and hopefully there > won't > have to be more tragedies to draw us to that conclusion. > > Brenda > > n.p.: silence If America was Buddhist, it would have been destroyed and overun long ago, And there would have no one to speak of peace any way R ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 06:56:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: "The Israelites" njc - --- denknee wrote: >And me thinks the line from Demond Dekker's > "Israelites" reads, "My wife and > my kids they PACK up and leave me", but ya gotta > listen real close to be > sure. > That's how it always sounded to me, so thanks for posting that, because I honestly couldn't remember what I thought it said, after reading the *other* version posted earlier. (love that song.) Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 06:53:01 -0400 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: Santeria? Okay, is Joni talking about Santeria here, in the references to Voodoo and a Nigerian religion? > "I have a lot of voodoo following me around, whether I like it or not," > She spoke at length about black, white and red magic, about her discovery > that a Nigerian religion she'd never heard of was seriously affecting her > life, and about how the island of Jamaica once stopped her from singing or > writing and forced her to paint murals. See the following link for information on Santeria: http://www.religioustolerance.org/santeri.htm - ----------------------------------- Deb Messling =^..^= - ----------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 04:00:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Re: Hobbit Names The Hobbit name i got for Joni mitchell is - Lily Hamwich Of Buckleberry Fern - --- "Jamie Zubairi" > wrote: >This might be of vague interest to Jonilistas. > >With her interest in JRR Tolkien's novels, someone has set about making a >website for a Hobbit Name Generator. > >I must say I prefer the Joni Method of naming names > >Much Joni > > >Jamie Zoob > > >I don't know whether or not any of you have ever read The Hobbit, but even >if you haven't >you, like all of us, have a hobbit name. Go here to find out what yours is: > > http://www.chriswetherell.com/hobbit/ > > Henceforward, if any of you continue to get pissed off with the leadership > of our great party, just remember who they REALLY are. _____________________________________________________________ Free email, web pages, news, entertainment, weather and MORE! Check out -------------------------------> http://wowmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 12:30:17 -0700 From: Richard Stevens Subject: Re: NJC Gere: treuth or gossip and innuendo? on 22/10/01 4:28 pm, Vince Lavieri at revrvl@chartermi.net wrote: > If he spoke from his Buddhist perspective of embracing the enemy with a divine > love, then that is a Buddhist philosophy that he has long espoused and would > have a lot in common with Jesus who said to Love and Pray for your enemies. It's not quite the same thing, Jesus said turn the other cheek, not let your enemies run you through with their sword, buddhists support passive resistance. The first thing muslim extrmists would do if the took over the world would be to line up liberal civil liberties groups, Buddhists and left wing chritian groups who support tolerance of muslim atrocities and shoot them... R ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 08:01:38 -0400 From: Yael Harlap Subject: psychologists NJC Hey- I'm going to be late, but just a quick note... I feel not so much like I have to defend my profession, but I wanted to reply to Bob's (it is Bob, right?) comment about the professor of Psychology. I can't find the original post right this moment I wanted to point out that I didn't think he was necessarily a professor of clinical psychology - and I believe that when you speak of people who are "attracted to" the profession, you are referring to therapists and their ilk. Many academic psychologists are researchers in a wide variety of areas, and are interested in all manner of topics related to human beings - how our brains work, how we learn language, how we think, how we are socialized in the environmental contexts around us, etc. I can accept that a valid argument against the professor is that he is not a scholar of history or journalism. But to then say that his arguments may be dismissable because he is a psychologist is simply ignorant. And *even* if he were "disturbed" as you put it, there are many many ways to be mentally ill, the vast majority of which do not merit suspicion around one's opinions! I realize you meant it that comment lightly, and not in a technical clinical sense, but it might just be easier to say you don't like his perspective - no need to tarnish psychologists or the mentally ill in the same sweep! Not meaning to offend, so I hope I don't... Yael Bobsart48 wrote: >2. I noted that he is neither a professor of history nor of journalism. >Rather, an assistant professor of Psychology at Penn. This is not a terribly >persuasive title for me, since I have little respect for that profession, >generally (and certainly none for the American Psychological Association, >with which I have no reason to believe the professor is affiliated). Yes, I >have some friends who are psychologists. > >3. My personal, anecdotal theory is that the subject matter attracts those >who are psychologically disturbed - his writings (ravings) reinforce my >impressions. Those who have passed logic 101 know that this does not mean >that I think all psychologists are in this category, or even most. Simply >that I suspect from my observations that there is a disproportionate bias >(probably caused by the recognition, conscious or subconscious, that they >have a problem) in that area. For example, if 10 % of the population at large >is disturbed, but 25% of psychologists are disturbed, that would be >consistent with my observations without implying that most psychologists are >disturbed. Note that disturbed is not intended as a clinical term. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 08:22:11 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Kiki & Herb in SF [NJC] Richard Goldman wrote: > I post this announcement for the upcoming rare show in SF, because.... > they do Joni Mitchell song(s) as part of their act. New Yorkers will > know them well... > > [10-25] Kiki and Herb at the Great American Music Hall > If you are anywhere near - GO. They are wonderful. I see them often at > Fez, Joni's NYC favorite, and the place where John Kelly is appearing > presently. Jerry np: Diana Krall - Do It Again ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 14:58:47 +0200 From: "mariodet@libero.it" Subject: marxist teachers in the US? (njc) I am quite surprised to read that, at least in some cases, marxist teachers had (or still have) an influence in the US educational system. This was totally unexpected from my italian point of view! Mario NP: Bach Brandemburg concert n. 3 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 08:58:41 EDT From: YORK48CAD@aol.com Subject: Re: Bridge school benefit (njc) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 08:59:13 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Tori? Crazi! NJC <> Yes, you are indeed certifiable **nuts** for considering that, Yael. Especially given that her latest project is at best a brave failure, and her last solid effort was "Under The Pink" which was a while back. Unfortunately, her fans have elevated her to some sort of "Goddess" status, and she thinks she can do no wrong. There are some great tracks on "Strange Little Girls", but for the most part it's very forgettable. None of them approach the tortured beauty of her cover of "A Case of You", although her handling of Eminem's "'97 Bonnie & Clyde" is MAJORLY creepy & effective. Bob NP: Gregg Martin, "Tenth Avenue Freezeout" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 09:06:57 EDT From: YORK48CAD@aol.com Subject: Re: bridge school benefit(njc) Hi to all, Still reeling from my amazing experience at Neil Young's Bridge school benefit. As I said before we had 4th row seats. Unbelievable!!!!!! Neil opened with Sugar Mountain, then did Blowing in the wind. All of the performers were great, with a suprisingly fun performance by Billy Idol. He really enjoys himself. I wish all of you could have been there. The peace was very clear. One of my favorite quotes was Neil saying, "It's hard to know what to sing because now all the words mean something else" Sooo true. The finale was Neil and crazy horse playing the music to Imagine, while the audience sang the words. VERY moving. I'm telling you what I guess you all know already....music can heal your soul...I feel better than I have in 6 weeks. peace.......Julie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 09:16:47 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: NJC Gere: truth or gossip and innuendo? I found this from MSNBC: Actor Richard Gere spoke briefly, saying we needed to be healed and music showed us the way. Later, in a plea for compassion and understanding, Gere was booed by many in the audience. from the LA Times: In the spirit of New York, it was not without discord: boos greeted actor Richard Gere when he called for "love, compassion and understanding." Acknowledging the reception on a night when other speakers taunted Bin Laden, Gere, a Buddhist, said, "That's apparently unpopular now, but that's OK." from the Guardian (London): Poor old Richard Gere got heavily booed when he dared to hint that bombing dust and rocks was perhaps not a very good idea. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 07:29:50 -0700 From: Leslie Mixon Subject: Congratulations Emily (NJC) Dear Mrs. Tedrowe: As a native of Brooklyn, I'd like to share this poem by Rainer Maria Rilke: Everything that touches us, me and you, takes us together like a violin's bow, which draws one voice out of two separate strings. Upon what instrument are we two spanned? And what musician holds up in his hand? Oh sweetest song. My best to you, Leslie Mixon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 07:29:43 -0700 From: "gene mock" Subject: Re: For Richard Thompson fans in U.S. NJC hello, same here, i caught eliza and was impressed. i noticed some of the back up musicians used to work with kate wolf and are from the northern california area. just a fyi. take care gene - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kate Bennett" To: Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 10:09 PM Subject: For Richard Thompson fans in U.S. NJC > I caught the second half of this show last weekend. I had never heard of > Eliza but she was really good! > > Debra wrote "Richard Thompson will be on the tv show "Austin City Limits" > this Friday > night, October 26 at midnight (officially October 27) in NYC on Channel > 21 WLIW. ... and Eliza Gilkyson for the other. She's new to me; his > performance has gotten great reviews from people who've seen it already. > > > ******************************************** > Kate Bennett > www.katebennett.com > sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com > Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: > http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html > ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 11:13:45 -0400 From: Janene Otten Subject: NJC: RICHARD GERE @ THE CONCERT FOR NYC Friends, I WAS there at Madison Square Garden and the first thing I will say is that transcriptions, TV stations, newspapers, etc... are selective in what they report and DON'T YOU FORGET IT! =) The second thing is that by the time Richard Gere took the stage, many folks were very drunk. I don't know about you but I've been in a bar with lots of drunk firemen/policemen downtown and WHOA!! Boo one minute, hugging each other the next. I just thought that it I should say that because alcohol does factor into the equation here. Not to mention the high energy that was almost tangible in that room. Richard Gere, while I admit I can't phrase word-for-word, said that at this time of violence we can channel our energies towards love and compassion [the crowd began to yell "BOO" and curse him] to which he replied "that's a common reaction right now, that's okay" in a very comforting, calm manner. He never mentioned anything about embracing our enemies. Although this is of course my own feeling on the matter, I thought what he did was a very courageous thing because in the long run I truly believe that humanity will begin to understand that violence breeds violence no matter whose side your on. Acts of kindness are pure and breed good things even though we may not live to see that day. The severity of terrorist actions are so shocking to the free world because we abhor the fact that they operate with such evil intent. During military action, our troops are acting on what they (and many of us) believe is noble and honest intent, in defense of our own freedom; our very lives, which we try to protect vehemently. Of course I won't go into a whole philosophical debate here but I wonder every day if people consider the fine line between "revenge" and "defense"? To defend is to protect from danger. Revenge is to inflict injury (in this case death) in return for (death) or to avenge. I think there was a mixture of both feelings which prompted our military action and also prompts the reactions like that of the booing crowd Saturday night. Also, all of the other celebrities made their feelings known so why is it that when people disagree with something they become selective in their own criticism. Personally I was a bit upset to hear fireman Mike Moran tell the crowd that "in the true spirit of the Irish, Osama can kiss my royal Irish ass" and "If you [Osama] want me, I live in Rockaway Beach, Queens - BITCH!" I saw the anger, the pain in that man and it made me uneasy and sad but also wanting to reach out to him so that he could turn that anger into something more positive if only to fuel the seeds of love in him not the seeds of the evil that makes him angry. I saw the weariness in the eyes of the families of the uniformed men and woman there. Perhaps Richard Gere did reach a few of the weary there. Maybe they can find love in their heart to take the place of the anger. Love will make them less weary. I would bet on it and if he reached one person that is good. I did not lose my brother but I lost my cousin, a firefighter, at the WTC and also a few friends. I don't like that people make their own judgments about how much suffering each person feels based on their relationship to a lost loved one. I live and work here in NYC every day but I still believe in the goodness of God's grace to lead us to act with compassion and love, not retaliation and defense. Now again, this is based on MY OWN PERSONAL RELIGIOUS BELIEFS but I think deep in our hearts most of us know that no matter what your personal beliefs, good people are not always rewarded and bad people are not always punished. I think Richard Gere understands this perfectly which is one of the reasons why I applauded loudly as my arena neighbors shouted obscenities. When I read what one of you wrote about Richard Gere making a fool of himself I thought about Jesus, and yes I am comparing this aspect of Richard Gere to Jesus. Supporting others and helping others heal, which WAS the point of the benefit concert, was Gere's intent. Jesus' intent was to save our souls and even though Jesus did perform miracles to heal people's bodies, the contrasting lessons that Jesus taught were to open our hearts and our minds so that we may see God's glory in ALL THE WORLD. Even in the darkness their must be light, even at the hour our death, especially at the hour of our death, God is there. Even Jesus was made to look like a fool as people crowned him with thorns, spit on him and crucified him, which in those days was considered to be the ultimate condemnation, but because of his example and the example of people like Richard Gere, the Dali Lama or even our own President Bush, our faith can only be strengthened by truly listening for God's message in their words and by their deeds. I do appreciate the sacrifice made by anyone who has the intention of helping others so even though I pray for peaceful solutions, I am still tortured by my gratefulness for my freedom and how it may be achieved. I ask myself every day, "Is it because the US Military is fighting evil that I am safe and is it God's intention for me to feel safe? What does God want me to do? How should I love even my enemies when the enemies' intentions are evil?" I suppose this is my rambling but I honestly haven't rambled on too much since the tragedy and there are moments when my prayers need to be supported by some good ole' therapy. Writing is like therapy so if you'll all forgive me for including you in my session, I would be grateful. May you all be blessed with love in your hearts, Janene Janene Otten janeneo@mji.com www.RockDaily.com www.RockNews.com "I stood unwound beneath the skies And clouds unbound by laws. The cryin' rain like a trumpet sang And asked for no applause" - B. Dylan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 08:24:59 -0700 (PDT) From: HiBill Subject: FYI: Girls and Guitars Concert NJC Friday, October 26, 9:00 pm ET/PT, Lifetime Cable Network Lifetime Special Starring: Kathy Najimy, Ellen DeGeneres, Sharon Lawrence, Pat Benatar, Sheryl Crow, Mary J. Blige, Camryn Manheim, The Dixie Chicks, Beth Nielsen Champman, Nelly Furtado, Shea Seger, Emmylou Harris, Lucy Liu Partnering with Marie Claire magazine, Lifetime's 2nd annual signature rock concert fundraising event to fight breast cancer will benefit the National Alliance of Breast Cancer Organizations (NABCO) and the National Breast Cancer Coalition (NBCC). Performers include Pat Benatar, Mary J. Blige, Beth Nielsen Chapman, Dixie Chicks, Sheryl Crow, Nelly Furtado, Emmylou Harris and Shea Seger. Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 11:33:42 -0400 From: Emily K Gray Subject: love and marriage, love and marriage (NJC) thanks to everyone who sent me such wonderful wedding wishes! so far, so good on day 3! - --emily ps: i'm LOVING bjork's "vespertine" and will motivate to write more about this at some point. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 08:31:29 -0700 From: "Brenda J. Walker" Subject: Re: NJC: RICHARD GERE @ THE CONCERT FOR NYC Thank you very, very much for your post. Brenda On 23 Oct 2001, at 11:13, Janene Otten wrote: > Friends, I WAS there at Madison Square Garden and the first thing I will say is > that transcriptions, TV stations, newspapers, etc... are selective in what they > report and DON'T YOU FORGET IT! =) The second thing is that by the time Richard > Gere took the stage, many folks were very drunk. I don't know about you but I've > been in a bar with lots of drunk firemen/policemen downtown and WHOA!! Boo one > minute, hugging each other the next. I just thought that it I should say that > because alcohol does factor into the equation here. Not to mention the high > energy that was almost tangible in that room. Richard Gere, while I admit I > can't phrase word-for-word, said that at this time of violence we can channel > our energies towards love and compassion [the crowd began to yell "BOO" and > curse him] to which he replied "that's a common reaction right now, that's okay" > in a very comforting, calm manner. He never mentioned anything about embracing > our enemies. Although this is of course my own feeling on the matter, I thought > what he did was a very courageous thing because in the long run I truly believe > that humanity will begin to understand that violence breeds violence no matter > whose side your on. Acts of kindness are pure and breed good things even though > we may not live to see that day. The severity of terrorist actions are so > shocking to the free world because we abhor the fact that they operate with such > evil intent. During military action, our troops are acting on what they (and > many of us) believe is noble and honest intent, in defense of our own freedom; > our very lives, which we try to protect vehemently. Of course I won't go into a > whole philosophical debate here but I wonder every day if people consider the > fine line between "revenge" and "defense"? To defend is to protect from danger. > Revenge is to inflict injury (in this case death) in return for (death) or to > avenge. I think there was a mixture of both feelings which prompted our military > action and also prompts the reactions like that of the booing crowd Saturday > night. > Also, all of the other celebrities made their feelings known so why is it that > when people disagree with something they become selective in their own > criticism. Personally I was a bit upset to hear fireman Mike Moran tell the > crowd that "in the true spirit of the Irish, Osama can kiss my royal Irish ass" > and "If you [Osama] want me, I live in Rockaway Beach, Queens - BITCH!" I saw > the anger, the pain in that man and it made me uneasy and sad but also wanting > to reach out to him so that he could turn that anger into something more > positive if only to fuel the seeds of love in him not the seeds of the evil that > makes him angry. I saw the weariness in the eyes of the families of the > uniformed men and woman there. Perhaps Richard Gere did reach a few of the weary > there. Maybe they can find love in their heart to take the place of the anger. > Love will make them less weary. I would bet on it and if he reached one person > that is good. I did not lose my brother but I lost my cousin, a firefighter, at > the WTC and also a few friends. I don't like that people make their own > judgments about how much suffering each person feels based on their relationship > to a lost loved one. I live and work here in NYC every day but I still believe > in the goodness of God's grace to lead us to act with compassion and love, not > retaliation and defense. Now again, this is based on MY OWN PERSONAL RELIGIOUS > BELIEFS but I think deep in our hearts most of us know that no matter what your > personal beliefs, good people are not always rewarded and bad people are not > always punished. I think Richard Gere understands this perfectly which is one of > the reasons why I applauded loudly as my arena neighbors shouted obscenities. > When I read what one of you wrote about Richard Gere making a fool of himself I > thought about Jesus, and yes I am comparing this aspect of Richard Gere to > Jesus. Supporting others and helping others heal, which WAS the point of the > benefit concert, was Gere's intent. Jesus' intent was to save our souls and even > though Jesus did perform miracles to heal people's bodies, the contrasting > lessons that Jesus taught were to open our hearts and our minds so that we may > see God's glory in ALL THE WORLD. Even in the darkness their must be light, even > at the hour our death, especially at the hour of our death, God is there. Even > Jesus was made to look like a fool as people crowned him with thorns, spit on > him and crucified him, which in those days was considered to be the ultimate > condemnation, but because of his example and the example of people like Richard > Gere, the Dali Lama or even our own President Bush, our faith can only be > strengthened by truly listening for God's message in their words and by their > deeds. I do appreciate the sacrifice made by anyone who has the intention of > helping others so even though I pray for peaceful solutions, I am still tortured > by my gratefulness for my freedom and how it may be achieved. I ask myself every > day, "Is it because the US Military is fighting evil that I am safe and is it > God's intention for me to feel safe? What does God want me to do? How should I > love even my enemies when the enemies' intentions are evil?" I suppose this is > my rambling but I honestly haven't rambled on too much since the tragedy and > there are moments when my prayers need to be supported by some good ole' > therapy. Writing is like therapy so if you'll all forgive me for including you > in my session, I would be grateful. May you all be blessed with love in your > hearts, Janene > > > Janene Otten > janeneo@mji.com > www.RockDaily.com > www.RockNews.com > "I stood unwound beneath the skies > And clouds unbound by laws. > The cryin' rain like a trumpet sang > And asked for no applause" - B. Dylan ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2001 #508 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?