From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2001 #506 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Tuesday, October 23 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 506 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Congratulations, Mrs. TEDROWE!!! (NJC) ["Pitassi, Mary" ] Re: NJC Louie Louie, etc etc [FredNow@aol.com] Re: Blame the victims NJC [TimandMaryPowers@aol.com] NJC Gere: treuth or gossip and innuendo? [Vince Lavieri ] Re: no no no! (NJC) [Catherine McKay ] Re: NJC Gere: treuth or gossip and innuendo? ["Kakki" ] Blame the victims NJC ["Kate Bennett" ] Quick Hits (VLJC) long ["Kate Bennett" ] tribute ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: NJC Gere being booed/the buddhist perspective ["Brenda J. Walker" ] Re: NJC Gere being booed/the buddhist perspective ["Kakki" ] RE: from Emily Gray TEDROWE (!!!) ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: NJC Gere being booed/the buddhist perspective ["Kakki" ] RE: the 4th estate (NJC) ["Kate Bennett" ] Gere at Concert for New York (njc) ["Kakki" ] the stirring of thoughts ... joni in toronto [Mags ] Re: the 4th estate (NJC) ["Kakki" ] Re: Newbie - CD trade request NJC [dsk ] For Richard Thompson fans in U.S. NJC [dsk ] Re: Quick Hits (NJC) [FredNow@aol.com] Re: For Richard Thompson fans in U.S. NJC ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: NJC Gere being booed/the buddhist perspective ["Brenda J. Walker" Subject: Congratulations, Mrs. TEDROWE!!! (NJC) Our own Emily Kirk Gray Tedrowe wrote: "all in all, a magical night -- one that filled this new yorker's heart with hope and love despite the concurrent acknowledgment that mourning and sadness don't go away... OK, so thanks for reading this (for those who care!) -- now i'm off to have some coffee with my HUSBAND [. . . ] love, emily tedrowe, reporting live from her second full day of marital bliss in brooklyn " Emily and Courtney: Heartfelt congratulations to both of you, and may you have a long, joyful, and ever-inspired life together. Best wishes, Mary P. Madison, WI. NPIMH: "We got a break / Unbelievable! / We got a break / Right in the middle of this [NYC] heartache / We got this solid love. . ." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 19:13:11 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: Blame the victims NJC My good friend MaryPowers@aol.com wrote: > > I agree with the points that the letter-writer made, except for the point > about Israel. So getting 1/3 of your population going up in smoke with the > whole world (few exceptions) not giving a damn is not supposed to motivate > the Jews to *do* something? Excuse me, why does all this talk of "root > causes" never extend to the Jews? After the Holocaust they were the most > victimized people on Earth, can you really blame them for turning to > terrorism? Not to excuse Israel for its human rights abuses, but if we're > going to talk "root causes" of things, I think having 6,000,000 people going > up in smoke (when they weren't shot and dumped in mass graves) with the whole > rest of the world basically saying 'so what' is a damned good explanation for > terrorism. No one blames the victims. That is not, in my opinion, an apt description of the reality. The understanding of root causes as you state them above certainly extends to the Jews. The Holocaust remains the single most depraved act of the 20th century, of many, many centuries, and all of Christendom and all of Western civilization must consider what role it played implicitly and explicitly in Holocaust. 6,000,000 people did not go missing - it took a hell of a lot of human coordination across religious and national lines to commit the atrocities of the Shoah. The silence of the world - immediate neighbors as well as neighbors far away - makes us all complicit in Holocaust. Holocaust, the Shoah, is not the equivalent of terrorism, it is an evil all of its own. I think we agree there. And the response of the Jewish people was not terrorism - it was to establish a sovereign nation, and that nation established for many reasons. Terrorism by the Israeli state - and you term it that, and I agree with you - is not a response to Holocaust, it is a response to intifada, and intifada arose in response to the massacres of Palestinians in refugees camps in the early 80s, and who exactly slaughtered the Palestinians is not clear. Certainly Christian Lebanese militia were involved, and Israeli silence or complicity, or explicit involvement, but some involvement under Ariel Sharon - current prime minister, also occurred. Israeli terrorism must stop. It obviously is very ineffective, as all terrorism is, let alone immoral. The intifada must stop. It is obviously ineffective, as all violence is, let alone immoral. The path to stopping these things will not found in increased violence. Barak and Arafat came so close to agreement last January. Clinton was unable to get the two sides to bridge the gap. When Bush assumed office, he said that Israeli-Palestinian peace was not a priority of his administration as a part of his go it alone new foreign policy. If Bush could have continued what Clinton had been so close to getting, Bush might have been able to bring the two sides together. Or not. But it sure would have had better positive possibilities if he had. And now Barak is out, Sharon is in and we seem, for many reasons, so far away from peace; It can only be safely concluded that terrorism by the Israelis has brought no peace but rather increased retaliation; terrorism by the palestinians has brought no peace but increased retaliation. In that, there is a lesson. (the Rev) Vince ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 19:14:09 EDT From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC Louie Louie, etc etc Forgot to mention that in the same lyric ("We Can Be Together" - Jefferson Airplane/Volunteers), the liner notes read: "Up against the wall fred" but what they sing is, of course, "Up against the wall motherfucker." I feel so ... honored. On the same album, in the lyric for "Eskimo Blue Day," the word "shit," however, is both printed and sung in the line "doesn't mean shit to a tree." Which, given author Grace Slick's Jewish blood, serves as a good example of Lenny Bruce's observation that: "To a Jew, f-u-c-k and s-h-i-t have the same value on the dirty-word graph. A Jew has no concept that f-u-c-k is worth 90 points and s-h-i-t 10. And the reason for that is that -- well, see, rabbis and priests both s-h-i-t, but only one f-u-c-ks." - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 19:18:36 EDT From: TimandMaryPowers@aol.com Subject: Re: Blame the victims NJC In a message dated 10/22/01 4:13:33 PM, revrvl@chartermi.net writes: >No one blames the victims. That is not, in my opinion, an apt description >of >the reality. OK, I apologize if I'm being overly defensive. I do think that it's very hard for me to hear criticism without taking that immediate leap to feeling blamed. sometimes, this all makes me wish for early childhood again when things had easy answers (or science. I majored in physics, at least there was an answer to your questions). People hurry by so quickly Don't they hear the melodies In the chiming and the clicking And the laughing harmonies - - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 19:28:13 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: NJC Gere: treuth or gossip and innuendo? IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > > > Ah, but I think he insulted all 6,000 police officers and firemen in the > front rows of that crowd when he spewed forth his statements. > > Show a transcript of where he did that, Paul. If he spoke from his Buddhist perspective of embracing the enemy with a divine love, then that is a Buddhist philosophy that he has long espoused and would have a lot in common with Jesus who said to Love and Pray for your enemies. If that is what Richard Gere said, it was no insult to anyone. If Gere insulted the police officers and fire fighters, show me the transcript where he does that. I have been looking all over the internet and can't find the text of what Gere said. I did find Gere talking about people with whom he disagrees, while working on his latest movie: "We had this amazing meeting with experts in anti terrorism from the CIA, FBI and Secret Service. They were all Republicans, all politics totally opposite of mine, but decent guys, nonetheless." http://www.eonline.com/Celebs/Qa/Gere/index4.html Hardly sounds like he is insulting anyone. You quote Gere as saying in another context, "If you can see them [the terrorists] as a relative who's dangerously sick and we have to give them medicine, and the medicine is love and compassion. There's nothing better." That may be agreed with or not, but consistent with Buddhist teachings (and Christian teachings) and it is what it is, not, repeat, not an insult to firefighters and police officers. A reminder: I have had a cousin, a police office, shot to death in the line of duty. My former partner is a firefighter and I know the dangers of those professions. Gere did not insult them in any way, shape, or form, by what we know that he said. Let us please stick to facts. Gere, a Buddhist, said what is his truth in love. You don't agree, you don't agree. But absent a hard text in which he insults anyone, your charges are bogus. (the Rev) Vince ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 20:33:02 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: no no no! (NJC) no no no no no no no no!!!!! don't say feck please! don't don't don't! my nerves can't take it! wallyK, very unnerved >>>>>>>>. Remember, like Wally says, when in doubt, use 'feck'! ;~) Bob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 20:40:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: no no no! (NJC) Why the fucking hell does everyone fucking think it's so fucking necessary to fucking say fucking every second fucking word? Why the fuck can't everybody fucking use their fucking imagination for fucking once and fucking think up something a little fucking more original? Sorry, I couldn't fucking help myself. - --- Wally Kairuz wrote: > no no no no no no no no!!!!! don't say feck please! > don't don't don't! my > nerves can't take it! > > wallyK, very unnerved > > >>>>>>>>. > Remember, like Wally says, when in doubt, use > 'feck'! ;~) > > Bob Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 18:04:43 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: NJC Gere: treuth or gossip and innuendo? I think Paul provided a news report of Gere's words. I actually watched most of the show including Gere's part. He was overwhelmingly and loudly boo-ed by what sounded to be the whole audience. Even louder than the much-publicized boos received by Hillary Clinton. The fact that he was met with such displeasure by the audience could be construed to indicate that they were insulted by what he said. I am amazed that he would say something to inflame such an audience. He may not have meant to, but if he is that insensitive to how they feel right now, I wonder about his reasoning. I would stand by his right to say it, but it doesn't mean others won't exercise their right to free speech, too. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 18:07:01 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Subject: Joni Sept. 11th paintings in LA TImes Paul wrote: >I can only hope that Joni has a more realistic >outlook than Richard Gere. I did not get the impression that she was a pacifist. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 18:08:04 -0700 From: Ted Greenwald Subject: Newbie - CD trade request Hello all, I've been lurking and haven't seen any trading on the list, so I hope this request isn't out of line. I'm looking to trade for the JMDL CD Trees and various other JM titles. Have lots of Beatles and Neil Young, plus some Richard Thompson and others. Thanks! Ted - -- - ------------------ Ted Greenwald senior editor Wired Magazine 520 3rd Street San Francisco, CA 94107 415.276.4974 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 18:00:16 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Blame the victims NJC mary wrote >>It's easy to blame the victim. If these "root cause" proponents would admit that's part of what they are doing, I would respect them more.<<< I do not believe that looking critically at US foreign policy has anything to do with blaiming the victim. I do not think that there is any justification whatsoever for the terrorist acts of 9/11. But I do not see how we can stop terrorism if we don't understand the forces that create it. >>Hindsight is 20/20. Yes, the US has screwed up in many ways. And your point is?<<< My point is to look at the current events from the historical perspective, to help give some answers to those of us who wonder "Why?" And by being informed, to hopefully not repeat our past mistakes. I think the point of the professor who wrote the letter that I posted was that the media, the "Fourth Estate," should be exercising critical thinking in its analysis of each day's events, not just serving as the propaganda arm of our government. ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 18:00:14 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Quick Hits (VLJC) long Susan said, "Perhaps as a country it is time for us to take that road less traveled. Before the roads are all destroyed." Susan, in this statement you were able to express something so deep that I have been struggling to put into words all of these weeks. Thanks. ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 18:00:15 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: tribute thanks jimmy for your post, i can hardly imagine how excited the three of you must have been to sit behind the guests of honor! i picture you all trying to contain the excitement but hardly able to... ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 18:24:53 -0700 From: "Brenda J. Walker" Subject: Re: NJC Gere being booed/the buddhist perspective On 22 Oct 2001, at 18:04, Kakki wrote: The fact that he was met with such displeasure by > the audience could be construed to indicate that they were insulted by what he > said. I didn't see any of this but if the audience displeasure was expressed so vehemently, then I am embarrassed for the audience, not for Richard Gere. Complete silence would have been more civilized. I've been wondering how someone presenting the Buddhist perspective/philosophy would be received relative to 9/11, especially since the recent pleas for tolerance have been focused on Islam and Christianity (with Judaism factored in because of the Israel-Palestine conflict). Will we only advocate tolerance when the conflict at-hand calls for it? The sad fact is that we as a nation need a wider perspective on more faiths and views that are held by smaller groups of our citizens and hopefully there won't have to be more tragedies to draw us to that conclusion. Brenda n.p.: silence ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 18:35:36 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: the 4th estate (NJC) Hi Mary, Hopefully I'll respond to some of Kate's and Vince's points here, too. > To which I reply: WHOA!!! Are you saying that >one has to be, or is likely to be, a Marxist to >criticize American foreign policy in the way > that the author of the article has? Not at all. I thought I'd written a few times here that we do need to take a look at our past foreign policy and see our mistakes and try to rectify them in the future. I don't know if I can get my point across but it is basically that I would prefer to read criticism by Americans who are not Marxist in their ideology, because to me, they are working more against us than for us ultimately. You may laugh but I also consider myself a liberal who can veer just as far left as right, depending on the issues. The problem that I run into with people sometimes is that I am also very anti-Marxist, anti-totalitarian and pro-American. I think some people think you cannot be a liberal and be anti-Marxist at the same time. I also can agree with many of the professor's points and I think that many Americans can. But then I can also read his points again and say to myself "but this isn't the whole story." Does he really think he can sum up 50 years of problems so easily? The fact that he has addressed his letter to Nigthline is also kind of telling. Does he think it is the media who have the sole duty to "educate" Americans? That's kind of scary. I also think he presumes too much that most Americans either know nothing of history or the issues he raised. We are not that stupid at all. The situation now, our current reality, is that we are suddenly at war and in a state of emergency. There really are more pressing concerns for Americans right now than to be ruminating every day about all the mistakes we made to get us to this point. I would rather Nightline be telling me about the latest Anthrax or other kinds of attacks, and how the war is affecting our world than being lectured about all the actions that have brought us to this point right now. Not that we should ignore our past policy or anything. But it IS very, very complicated and the actions taken were not the exclusivity of the U.S. Many other countries have just as much culpability in the problems in the middle east, including the countries involved. Let's talk about ALL of it so that we can get close to the truth, even if we offend OTHER countries in the process. > My favorite is probably, "Stay away from the ridiculous claims that we > are hated because we respect individual liberties. In the Muslim world, > over and over again, we consistently HAVE NOT respected individual liberties > but rather supported tin-pot dictators." I think that is really debatable. How can we explain the fact that tens of millions of people from South America, Central America, Iran, Palestine, Iraq, Pakistan, Cuba, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, China, Korea and Russia have fled to our country. If we were the "great imperialist Satan" who has help ruin their countries and interfered with their "democratic" elections, why the hell do so many of them want to come here? The facts belie a lot of the criticism against the U.S. > I agree completely. Let's be united, and let's protect our nation from > this horrifying threat in the best, most efficient way we can. But > while we're doing so, let's remember that it is NOT unpatriotic to admit > that our country has sometimes done wrong. I do not think it is unpatriotic at all to admit our country has done something wrong. We KNOW we have done some really stupid things. I wish people would come up with more constructive ideas as to our future foreign policy, however, rather than hit us just because it may make them feel superior. I'm not sure that it is patriotic for anyone to say we *deserve* what has happened to us since Sept. 11th and those are the sentiments that I will continue to take issue with. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 18:42:05 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: NJC Gere being booed/the buddhist perspective Brenda, The great portion of the audience were the firemen and police officers who have been working at Ground Zero since Sept. 11th, and the families of those firemen and police officers who were killed. Mr. Gere right off called criticized and judged people and our defensive war as "retaliation" and "revenge." I'm not saying I don't feel bad for him that he got booed, but really, what was his point to say this to that audience at this point in time? It shows that the event was more about him and his urge to speak his relgious/political beliefs than just showing support for the grieving (which was the whole point of the concert benefit). Would you go up to a family member at a funeral who just lost a son or daughter in a terrorist attack and start preaching to them about how they should feel? Naw. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 18:56:15 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: from Emily Gray TEDROWE (!!!) > love, > emily tedrowe, reporting live from her second full day of > marital bliss in brooklyn > CONGRATULATIONS EMILY & COURTNEY!!! Mark E. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 23:04:18 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: from Emily Gray TEDROWE (!!!) emily, such great news!!!!!! i wish you all the sweet things that love brings! a hundred years of happiness to you and courtney. wallyK - -----Mensaje original----- De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de Mark or Travis Enviado el: Lunes, 22 de Octubre de 2001 10:56 p.m. Para: Emily K Gray; joni@smoe.org Asunto: Re: from Emily Gray TEDROWE (!!!) > love, > emily tedrowe, reporting live from her second full day of > marital bliss in brooklyn ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 19:06:17 -0700 From: "Brenda J. Walker" Subject: Re: NJC Gere being booed/the buddhist perspective On 22 Oct 2001, at 18:42, Kakki wrote: > Brenda, > > The great portion of the audience were the firemen and police officers who > have been working at Ground Zero since Sept. 11th, and the families of those > firemen and police officers who were killed. Mr. Gere right off called > criticized and judged people and our defensive war as "retaliation" and > "revenge." I don't think it really matters who was in the audience. I personally feel that silence is a more tolerant and powerful response. Silence when he was speaking and silence when he was finished. That was the essential point of my post. I can imagine that he criticized, but who did he judge? Can you point to the specific words please? Or is it your view that he judged because you did not agree with him? Does anyone know where a transcript is? BTW - I think our defensive war is both revenge and retaliation, among other things. But that's for another thread! : ) I'm not saying I don't feel bad for him that he got booed, but > really, what was his point to say this to that audience at this point in time? > It shows that the event was more about him and his urge to speak his > relgious/political beliefs than just showing support for the grieving (which was > the whole point of the concert benefit). Hopefully some reporter will get an opportunity to ask him what his point was. I don't think either of us can truly or should judge whether it was self- motivated. I wonder if the Dalai Lama would have received the same response for saying the same things.... > > Would you go up to a family member at a funeral who just lost a son or > daughter in a terrorist attack and start preaching to them about how they > should feel? Naw. I don't think you can even compare the two. A personal conversation face-to- face is a very different forum compared to speaking in front of a large audience. In any case, when my cousin who worked for the public transit system in Boston was gunned down outside his home by a disgruntled employee, I did absolutely express to my family that there was no solace in revenge. Because despite the injustices served on me and my extended family from times even preceding my birth, I do personally believe in turning the other cheek. Brenda n.p.: Bjork - "Hidden Place" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 20:09:11 -0600 From: Les Irvin Subject: Ryan Adams is God - njc I remember how I felt when I first discovered Emmylou's "Elite Hotel" and Gram's "Grievous Angel" and Townes' "High, Low and In Between". It's happened again. Ryan Adams has become God. At least this month. I will now return to lurk mode. Les NP: Whiskeytown "Empty Baseball Park" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 19:19:34 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: NJC Gere being booed/the buddhist perspective Brenda, I just went back and read again what Paul posted and it looks like comments from Gere in an interview after the fact. I'll see if I can find his exact remarks somewhere - unless they are being "censored" now in the news. I recall he started off with something about people's "energy" right now and how they should not be channeling it into "revenge" and "retaliation" and should be channeling it into "compassion", etc. Since he is directing those remarks to an audience of mostly people who are grieving as a direct result of Sept. 11th isn't he presuming to know what is in their minds and hearts and isn't he by extension judging them by indicating that they are full of "revenge" and not "compassion?" >Or is it your view that he judged because you >did not agree with him? Why is it about whether *I* agree with him or not? This discussion is about the audience not agreeing with him in a very strong manner. Maybe some of them agreed with his sentiments but didn't think it was the right time and place? How do we really know? Maybe what they disagreed with was his clueless insensitivity of using the occasion to advance his own religious/political beliefs. You think they were rude and they thought he was rude. It was unfortunate overall that it had to occur at that event. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 22:42:59 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: from Emily Gray TEDROWE (!!!) Emily K Gray wrote: > > love, > emily tedrowe, reporting live from her second full day of > marital bliss in brooklyn Congratulations, Emily!!! Sounds like you and Courtney have had a wonderful and memorable start to your life together. Best wishes to you both, always. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 19:17:51 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: the 4th estate (NJC) Kakki wrote >>>But then I can also read his points again and say to myself "but this isn't the whole story." Does he really think he can sum up 50 years of problems so easily? The fact that he has addressed his letter to Nigthline is also kind of telling. Does he think it is the media who have the sole duty to "educate" Americans? <<< You are right. It is not easy at all to sum this situation up briefly. However, I believe this article was written in reaction to the way the media is handling the current situation. I believe the writer was asking for an honest discussion of the situation as opposed to the rhetoric that distills the issue down to a simple war of good vs. evil. I do not think the writer ever said that it was the media who had the sole duty to educate us. He did say that they had the duty to act as the Fourth Estate which means to use critical thinking as opposed to being an mouthpiece of the government. I think that was his main point. I posted this article because I hoped for some discussions on this issue among people who I highly respect. >>>But it IS very, very complicated and the actions taken were not the exclusivity of the U.S. Many other countries have just as much culpability in the problems in the middle east, including the countries involved. Let's talk about ALL of it so that we can get close to the truth, even if we offend OTHER countries in the process.<<< Absolutely, lets talk about all of it! >>>I wish people would come up with more constructive ideas as to our future foreign policy, however, rather than hit us just because it may make them feel superior. I'm not sure that it is patriotic for anyone to say we *deserve* what has happened to us since Sept. 11th and those are the sentiments that I will continue to take issue with.<<< I do not think that anyone is trying to act superior here, nor have I ever heard anyone ever say that we deserve what has happened since 9/11. Looking at root causes does not tranlate into a support of terrorism. I do agree that constructive ideas are called for. But first we have to understand the other cultures from a non US-centric point of view. Understanding other cultures is a lot harder than it seems. Listening. Not demonizing. Here is my contribution to a constructive idea. I have always believed that anyone in our government who is making foreign policy decisions should have a background in, or at least advisors who are knowledable about, world religion. Why? Because if you study religions you learn so much about a culture's point of view. Here is another idea- the US should not be arms dealers. This creates a lot of world problems when we sell or send war machines to other countries. Medical & food aid- yes. Education- yes. Arms-no. It is my belief that terrorism recruits people from poverty, people who see very few positive options for themselves or their world. Start along the road of getting rid of poverty & I believe you will begin to alleviate widespread terrorism. I believe in order to make postive changes, you first have to have a vision of the way you want your life, or your world to be. So these constructive ideas are given in that frame of mind. The politicians can work out the details ;~) ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 19:43:31 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Gere at Concert for New York (njc) This is the only article I can fund right now from VH-1 regarding Gere's remarks but it doesn't provide the whole transcript. There is also lots of discussion on VH-1's message boards about it. Kakki http://www.vh1.com/thewire/content/news/1450206.jhtml ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 22:52:49 -0400 From: Mags Subject: the stirring of thoughts ... joni in toronto I cannot help but write some more thoughts and feelings... the bonus of this tribute was sharing it with other jmdlers...some Ive met in person and some only through various emails. It was so good to see everyone again and witness this incredible evening. (almost too good to be true!) I believe that our jmdl connections are deepened because of this rare and amazing tribute to our Joni. Thank you to everyone for your friendship and love. We all met on Queen Street West the next day and just kept looking at one another ... speechless... how is it possible??? how can we possibly relay how it felt to be in the presence of Joni, let alone what she gave to us that night. Certainly a piece of her heart, at the very least. I am eternally grateful to Brian for this the best birthday gift ever. Joni was gracious and beautiful and she had so much fun and was obviously moved to the core by everything that happened in her honour. It was especially wonderful to see her face when they announced that Mr. Kratzman himself was there to give her the award at the end of the evening. In that moment, I watched the transformation as she became young Joni in the classroom sitting up and taking notice of this man who was definitely 'not' like the rest of the teachers in her experience. They greeted each other like long lost friends and held each other close in a warm embrace. They had a looooong and memorable talk about those days...eyes glistened brightly as Kratzman read something he had written for her. Yes, it made her cry, and pretty much everyone else in the audience. To see that others 'get it' had to be such a joy for Joni...finally. I also enjoyed seeing Gordon Lightfoot and Loreena Mckennitt in the audience...Gordon of course got to go up on stage early on in the evening to say some wonderful things about his memories of Joni in the early days of coffee houses here and south of the border. I understand that Gordie and Joni have been long term friends. Ive been a fan of Gordon's for a very long time and it made me so happy and proud to see him share in Joni's tribute. He is quite the performer himself and has had long standing gigs at Massey Hall in Toronto. While the Liberty Grand was quite innovative, I would have liked to see this take place at either Massey Hall or else at the Festival Theatre in Stratford, Ontario. Just my humble opinion of course. I cannot help but say how very special it was to sit beside and share the evening with Brian. I said this in my other post and I cannot help but say it again...it really is because of Joni that Brian and I found one another in this space..and of course that leads me into a big thank you to everyone for your support of 'us'....oh it takes a village. And to our very own Jim Johansen...while I did get to meet you finally and tell you how I feel in person, I wanted to reiterate how much we appreciate everything you have done and continue to do for all of us and for Joni . thanks for listening to me gush some more. loving the stories from all sides, now and then. love, Mags and Brei - -- And this loving is a drawing close, a tuning in, an opening. Until one perfect moment; but how can it be expressed? A receiving, an enfolding as I cradle you in my arms. Within my heart, within my soul, You are my true love. --Lui Collins - --- _~O / /\_, ___/\ /_ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 19:57:07 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: the 4th estate (NJC) Kate wrote: >He did say that they had the duty to act as the >Fourth Estate which means to use critical >thinking as opposed to being an mouthpiece >of the government. I think that was his main >point. I would disagree with him there because I have heard much discussed from all sides in the media for weeks now. He sounds like he is not really listening to many of the media outlets. I've seen the cable news channels interview many people from all sides of this, even the ones who would tell Americans what they don't want to hear. I have seen the media bend over backwards in many cases to provide a forum for all viewpoints, both domestic and international. What he wishes for is already happening and has been happening since this began. The media also includes the comments of our current administration who have been characterizing this as good vs. evil, but I don't find that particular characterization incorrect. I see much more evil on one side right now than the other and so do 80 to 90% of Americans, so it's not surprising that the news media, rather than being a propoganda arm of the government, are actually reflecting the views of the majority. > I do not think that anyone is trying to act >superior here, nor have I ever heard anyone >ever say that we deserve what has happened >since 9/11. Looking at root causes does not >tranlate into a support of terrorism. I did not mean people here on the list were acting superior - I have read a number of articles from the U.S. and around the world where people are literally saying we deserved it or are implying it very strongly. Many of the radical Islamics all around the world are being shown on TV cheering and celebrating our tragedy - they obviously think we deserve it. > I believe in order to make postive changes, >you first have to have a vision of the way you >want your life, or your world to be. So these >constructive ideas are given in that frame of >mind. The politicians can work out the > details ;~) I like your constructive ideas and I think ideally that U.S. pollicy would embrace them to the fullest extent possible. I think the people of the U.S. mostly have great and humane visions and ideals, but I also think hard reality gets in the way of us achieving our fullfillment of them too often. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 23:09:04 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: Newbie - CD trade request NJC Hi Ted, Welcome to the Jonilist! Your request is not out of line at all. Tape trading is openly talked about here, and there are even videos available. Someone with the actual Joni "goods" will probably speak up soon. Your mention of Richard Thompson has caught my eye since he's one of my favorites. Discussion of his "extra" music is not allowed on the RT list so recordings are hard to come by. Perhaps I have something you don't and vice versa, so let's talk -- privately is probably best. Thanks. atb, Debra Shea NPIMH: "... it's a rich exchange, it's a waaaarm arraaangement." Is there a Joni quote for everything? Ted Greenwald wrote: > > Hello all, > > I've been lurking and haven't seen any trading on the list, so I hope > this request isn't out of line. > > I'm looking to trade for the JMDL CD Trees and various other JM > titles. Have lots of Beatles and Neil Young, plus some Richard > Thompson and others. > > Thanks! > Ted > -- > ------------------ > Ted Greenwald > senior editor > Wired Magazine > 520 3rd Street > San Francisco, CA 94107 > 415.276.4974 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 23:37:21 -0400 From: dsk Subject: For Richard Thompson fans in U.S. NJC Richard Thompson will be on the tv show "Austin City Limits" this Friday night, October 26 at midnight (officially October 27) in NYC on Channel 21 WLIW. It may be showing at another time and on another PBS station in other areas. It's an hour-long show and he's on for half of it and Eliza Gilkyson for the other. She's new to me; his performance has gotten great reviews from people who've seen it already. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 23:30:20 EDT From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: Quick Hits (NJC) Susan Guzzi wrote: >I think it was someone from Chicago (Fred?) as he used >the Sears Tower in his example, I too fear the reality >of nuclear disaster from these "suitcase nukes." I am >more scared than at any time during the Cold War. I >have been working out in my head, when I get depressed >or bored, escape plans or safer places to live. >Sometimes I feel crazy cause this seems to be the last >thing everyone thinks is going to happen. What are >we doing about defending against that or is it this >real - THERE MAY BE NO DEFENSE FOR THIS OCCURRENCE! Yeah, it was me that mentioned it, and you're right, there is no defense against this scenario. Although it may not be a feasible reality yet, the cold truth is that these terrorists want it to be feasible and are working toward it. When it becomes feasible, what will stop them? The mythical missile defense shield? Terrorists to USA: "Hey, Stars Wars this, mofo!" - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 20:33:41 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: For Richard Thompson fans in U.S. NJC > Richard Thompson will be on the tv show "Austin City Limits" this Friday > night, October 26 at midnight (officially October 27) in NYC on Channel > 21 WLIW. It may be showing at another time and on another PBS station in > other areas. > > It's an hour-long show and he's on for half of it and Eliza Gilkyson for > the other. She's new to me; his performance has gotten great reviews > from people who've seen it already. It was on here last Saturday night, Debra. Don't miss it. I thought of you while I was watching it. You're in for a real treat! Mark E. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 20:34:47 -0700 From: "Brenda J. Walker" Subject: Re: NJC Gere being booed/the buddhist perspective I find this increasingly difficult to continue this discussion without knowing what he said but here goes.... On 22 Oct 2001, at 19:19, Kakki wrote: I recall he > started off with something about people's "energy" right now and how they should > not be channeling it into "revenge" and "retaliation" and should be channeling > it into "compassion", etc. Since he is directing those remarks to an audience of > mostly people who are grieving as a direct result of Sept. 11th isn't he > presuming to know what is in their minds and hearts and isn't he by extension > judging them by indicating that they are full of "revenge" and not "compassion?" > I don't know because I don't know what he said. Isn't it possible that he believed what he said should be regarded to whom it applies whether he knows who they are or not? Surely you won't argue that there are people in this country who are seeking revenge and have expressed it as such. Seeing as how the remarks were televised (right?) they needn't just apply to people in the room. > Why is it about whether *I* agree with him or not? Because you wrote: "Mr. Gere right off called criticized and judged people" Is this your statement or a quote from something you read reporting on the event? If it is your statement then there was something which you heard that led you to characterize his comments as criticism and judgement. That's what his words were through your lens. They may not be judgmental to me. I again suggest that we try to look at what exactly those words were. Maybe there's something we can learn from it together. Please understand that this is not a personal attack and there is no need to be defensive. It's just that in my view it is very strong language to say that someone is "judging." And I don't think it was unfortunate. Hopefully there are other people somewhere wondering what Gere meant by what he said and seeking to open their minds to the Buddhist perspective, if for no other reason than the sake of tolerance. Brenda ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 23:39:47 EDT From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: God Angrily Clarifies 'Don't Kill' Rule (njc) Vince, thanks for reprinting these Onion articles. That whole post-9/11 issue is just brilliant. When God weeps at the end of the press conference one can't help but join in. - -Fred Here are some more choice headlines and stories: Hugging Up 76,000 Percent Jerry Falwell: Is That Guy A Dick Or What? Rest Of Country Temporarily Feels Deep Affection For New York Massive Attack On Pentagon Page 14 News U.S. Vows To Defeat Whoever It Is We're At War With American Life Turns Into Bad Jerry Bruckheimer Movie Not Knowing What Else To Do, Woman Bakes American-Flag Cake Arab-American Third-Grader Returns From Recess Crying, Saying He Didn't Kill Anyone ROYAL OAK, MI Eddie Bahri, 8, a Lincoln Elementary School third-grader of Iraqi descent, tearfully denied accusations during morning recess Tuesday that he was a terrorist who killed a bunch of people. "I did not kill anybody," Bahri told classmate Douglas Allenby. "And my dad didn't, either, okay?" Also implicated in the Sept. 11 attacks was 9-year-old Rajesh Soonachian, a Lincoln Elementary fourth-grader of Indian descent. President Urges Calm, Restraint Among Nation's Ballad Singers WASHINGTON, DC In the wake of the recent national tragedy, President Bush is urging Mariah Carey, Michael Jackson, and other singers to resist the urge to record mawkish, insipid all-star tribute ballads. "To America's recording artists, I just want to say, please, there has already been enough suffering," Bush said. "The last thing we need right now is a soaring Barbra Streisand-Brian McKnight duet titled 'One For All.'" Reports that the FBI had confiscated several notebooks and audio tapes from Diane Warren's home could not be confirmed as of press time. Report: Gen X Irony, Cynicism May Be Permanently Obsolete AUSTIN, TX According to Generation X sources, the recent attack on America may have rendered cynicism and irony permanently obsolete. "Remember the day after the attack, when all the senators were singing 'God Bless America,' arm-in-arm?" asked Dave Holt, 29. "Normally, I'd make some sarcastic wisecrack about something like that. But this time, I was deeply moved." Added Holt: "This earnestness can't last forever. Can it?" Dinty Moore Breaks Long Silence On Terrorism With Full-Page Ad NEW YORK Nearly two weeks after the attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon, the makers of Dinty Moore beef stew finally weighed in on the tragedy Monday with a full-page ad in USA Today. "We at Dinty Moore extend our deepest sympathies to all who have been affected by the terrible events of Sept. 11, 2001," read the ad, which pictured a can of Dinty Moore beef stew at the bottom of the page. "The entire Dinty Moore family is outraged by this heinous crime and stands firmly behind our leaders." Dinty Moore joins Knoche Heating & Cooling and Tri-State Jacuzzi in condemning terrorism. Bush Sr. Apologizes To Son For Funding Bin Laden In '80s MIDLAND, TX Former president George Bush issued an apology to his son Monday for advocating the CIA's mid-'80s funding of Osama bin Laden, who at the time was resisting the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. "I'm sorry, son," Bush told President George W. Bush. "We thought it was a good idea at the time because he was part of a group fighting communism in Central Asia. We called them 'freedom fighters' back then. I know it sounds weird. You sort of had to be there." Bush is still deliberating over whether to tell his son about the whole supporting-Saddam Hussein-against-Iran thing. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 20:41:39 -0700 From: "Brenda J. Walker" Subject: Re: Gere at Concert for New York (njc) On 22 Oct 2001, at 19:43, Kakki wrote: > This is the only article I can fund right now from VH-1 regarding Gere's > remarks but it doesn't provide the whole transcript. There is also lots of > discussion on VH-1's message boards about it. Kakki > > http://www.vh1.com/thewire/content/news/1450206.jhtml > AOL hosted a webcast so perhaps there is an archive somewhere....I'll see what I can find. The LA Times and MSNBC also mention Gere: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-102101paul.story http://www.msnbc.com/news/645450.asp Brenda ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 00:01:40 EDT From: Marksa973@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC Gere being booed/the buddhist perspective In a message dated 10/22/2001 9:28:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, brenda@killinggoliath.com writes: << Complete silence would have been more civilized. >> Yes, Richard Gere should have kept his mouth shut. He made a complete fool of himself. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 23:59:19 -0400 From: "denknee" Subject: Re: Teena Marie and "The Israelites" Okay, I hadda crawl outta lurkdom because I couldn't let this go by: That Caucasian, soulful Brit Kiki Dee released a fine album, for it's time, on Tamla/Motown in 1970: 'Great Expectations', and in 1972, the less soulful Lesley Gore released an album, 'Someplace Else Now', on Motown subsidiary MoWest. Teena's debut, 'Wild and Peaceful', came out on Gordy in 1979. And me thinks the line from Demond Dekker's "Israelites" reads, "My wife and my kids they PACK up and leave me", but ya gotta listen real close to be sure. Thanks. Now lemme get back to some rest... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 21:03:26 -0700 From: "Brenda J. Walker" Subject: Re: NJC Gere being booed/the buddhist perspective So are you able to report on exactly what he said? On 23 Oct 2001, at 0:01, Marksa973@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 10/22/2001 9:28:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > brenda@killinggoliath.com writes: > > << Complete silence would have been more civilized. >> > > Yes, Richard Gere should have kept his mouth shut. He made a complete fool of > himself. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 21:06:48 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: NJC Gere being booed/the buddhist perspective Brenda, > I find this increasingly difficult to continue this discussion without knowing > what he said but here goes.... I just saw Fox News replaying the Gere segment. Maybe you can catch it again tonight. > Surely you won't argue that there are people in this > country who are seeking revenge and have expressed it as such. NO! But can't you see that directing it to an audience of people who have been more perharps devastated than anyone on earth can be seen as inappropriate? Why convert an occasion to give some true heroes acknowledgement into a religious political opportunity? What's done is done and I do wish in a way we can go back to more live TV because it is more honest. > Is this your statement or a quote from something you read reporting on the > event? If it is your statement then there was something which you heard that > led you to characterize his comments as criticism and judgement. That's what > his words were through your lens. They may not be judgmental to me. True, myabe you will have the chance to see the replay for yourself. I saw it myself live and am not repeating something I heard. In fact, I just saw it again a few minutes ago and kicked myself for not transcribing it. > Please understand that this is not a personal attack and there is no need to be > defensive. It's just that in my view it is very strong language to say that > someone is "judging." Oh come on. In my almost 5 years on the list I have only felt a personal attack three times, and in each instance I was directly and blatantly called a vicious name or accused of something of which I was innocent. The rest of it I find either stimulating, or if it angers me, I go have a martini and laugh it all away. ;-) > And I don't think it was unfortunate. Hopefully there are other people > somewhere wondering what Gere meant by what he said and seeking to open their > minds to the Buddhist perspective, if for no other reason than the sake of tolerance. I am for tolerance always. I also think that the efforts and heroism of the firemen and policemen in New York exemplify something that I don't think many of us have witnessed in a long, long time. I celebrate and bless them very much. As noted at the concert, they directly saved 25, 000 lives. What Gere has to say right now takes a back seat to that, IMO. Kakki ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2001 #506 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?