From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2001 #505 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Monday, October 22 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 505 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: The Fourth Estate, a letter NJC ["Kakki" ] Re: Subject: Joni Sept. 11th paintings in LA TImes ["Kakki" ] Kiki & Herb in SF [NJC] [Richard Goldman ] Louie, Louie (all the words) NJC [Vince Lavieri ] Re: The Fourth Estate, a letter NJC [Vince Lavieri ] smut njc ["Dolphie Bush" ] Globe and Mail Tribute review ["Stephen Epstein" ] RE: the 4th estate (NJC) ["Pitassi, Mary" ] RE: Subject: Joni Sept. 11th paintings in LA TImes ["Kate Bennett" ] Hijackers Surprised To Find Selves In Hell: 'We Expected Eternal Paradise For This,' Say Suicide Bombers [Vi] Re: Subject: Joni Sept. 11th paintings in LA TImes [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: NJC Re: Joni- Toronto World Leader's Tribute- Part 3 [Catherine McKa] RE: Subject: Joni Sept. 11th paintings in LA TImes ["Kate Bennett" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 13:04:22 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: The Fourth Estate, a letter NJC Kate, I want to do more research about the Professor Francisco Gil-White to see his background and motivations before I get too much into this. If he is a Marxist, his views will be naturally slanted towards having a gripe against the U.S. system to begin with, and therefore, not impartial or objective. I've seen such types of questioning of U.S. actions most of my life and they usually ultimately come from Marxist sources. I had admitted Marxists professors not only in college but in high school, so have seen the approach first hand. It's no secret that our educational systems in the U.S. have long been either dominated or heavily influenced by them. Since I am not a Marxist and have no desire for their system to predominate in my country, I will be wary of their their motivations. You can find much empirical evidence that all of the terrorist groups we have learned about in our lifetime have been connected to or espouse Marxist ideals. They use religion and ideology as a guise and lots of people are brought to their cause under thoses guises. This is not a good thing. As for questioning what the U.S. has done or has not done to have the tragedy of Sept. 11th and apparent ongoing threats against it, I have no problem with that. However, I am very suspect of people who want to focus their questioning all on U.S. actions, especially U.S. actions of half a century ago. I am doubtful that anyone other than a few experts in U.S. policy in the middle east, can really present a comprehensive and objective view that includes ALL factors made by all parties concerned which led to decisions made years ago, and perhaps out of context to today's situation. I think we absolutely do need to figure how how we have come to this point, but I don't think we need to only consider our enemies explanations for it. I agree it is a very complex situation. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 13:36:00 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Subject: Joni Sept. 11th paintings in LA TImes Kate wrote: > Kakki, thanks so much for posting these >paintings....i really relate to the contrast of the >exploding towers juxtiposed with the serenity of her > garden...a powerful statement that i imagine many >of us feel who are not in NYC.... I wish I could feel the serenity of that beautiful garden - maybe someday again I will. As I wrote previously Joni did give us some of her thoughts about Sept. 11th which I hesitated to relate to the list because 1) I didn't feel right about repeating her before she made an "official" kind of statement in an interview, song, etc., 2) we may not have heard her entire viewpoint on the subject and I did not want to cheat her by relating it before perhaps not having all of her thoughts on it. I will give a hint, though, ;-) and say that the viewpoint she expressed is very unique and not at all geo-political in nature, either way, but she did place accountability in a non-political sector. I will also say that her viewpoints may be "politically incorrect" in certain circles, even though those viewpoints are not political in the traditional sense. I hope we do hear more from her soon. I also wonder if the listers from Toronto heard anymore from her on the subject and have anything to add. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 15:40:59 -0500 From: "Pitassi, Mary" Subject: "Smut" on the list! A suggestion (NJC) Dolphie Bush wrote, in response to Christopher Blake: " If you, Mr. Blake, are allowing kids access to this site, then that is your fault, not the people who are doing the posting, and furthermore, using profanity does not make one a purveyor of smut. I suggest you find yourself a site more appropriate for you if you do not like what is written here. " Mack, I love your posts, but I think Mr. Blake has a point. As I read his original e-mail, he was not requesting that the JMDL not enter into discussions which might include profanity, but only that profanity not be displayed in subject lines, which tend to be highlighted in bold until a message is read (at least, that is the case in Windows Outlook). And I didn't get the sense that Christopher was "allowing kids access to this site," but only that he was afraid that they might see the f-word "prominently displayed" in the subject line as they wandered by. Some on this list access the JMDL from work, and others might not wish their own children to see certain subject lines at home. I have a modest proposal. As a courtesy to our fellow listers and their various circumstances, why don't we just agree to try to keep commonly-recognized profanities out of subject headings? Mary P., donning her labor-and-employment-attorney hat (sort of). P.S. Apologies if this has already been covered; I'm on digest. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 13:45:53 -0700 From: Richard Goldman Subject: REVIEW [NJC] Singing for peace at Bridge School benefit Young, R.E.M., Pearl Jam speak to troubled times [NJC] http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2001/10/22/DD169521.DTL I was there. Wow, what an amazing show.... Richard in San Francisco N.P. - Bonnie Rait - "Love in the Nick of Time" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 13:50:16 -0700 From: Jim Subject: New Joni paintings from LA Times Magazine Just wanted to let everybody know that I put up images of those two new paintings that Joni completed shortly after the World Trade Center disaster. Just go from the link that appears with the blurb on the news page, or if if you want go directly to the paintings at . I'm so glad some of us got to hang out together in Toronto -- what an incredible experience! There'll be updates on Harbourfront appearing over the next week (probably in installments), as soon as I can pull things together. So stop by! jj ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 13:50:54 -0700 From: Richard Goldman Subject: Kiki & Herb in SF [NJC] I post this announcement for the upcoming rare show in SF, because.... they do Joni Mitchell song(s) as part of their act. New Yorkers will know them well... [10-25] Kiki and Herb at the Great American Music Hall Kiki & Herb, bringing good old fashioned New York camp cabaret to The Great American Music Hall for one night only! The bizarre duo was described by the Village Voice as "watching a train derail in front of you," and have been likened to '70s phenoms Sonny & Cher, Captain & Tenille and Donny & Marie. Don't expect an evening of Cole Porter or anything as trite as a send-up of Liza Minnelli. But you can expect an elegant performance from this bizarre American drag duo. In the guise of a boozy over-the-hill drag queen, gender illusionist/chanteuse Kiki (Justin Bond) and cohort Herb (Kenny Mellman) perform songs from Belle and Sebastian to Joni Mitchell and Meat Loaf. Picture Kiki as part Helen Gurley Brown, part Janis Joplin -- only then will you have an idea of what you're in for. "The most hilariously disturbing show you'll see." NY Times "The glitterati's favorite dysfunctional, drink-swilling downtown nightclub act." Harper's Bazaar "Demented...deranged...scary...mesmerizing." Variety "Scathingly brilliant!" The New Yorker for more information and ticket sales: http://www.musichallsf.com/artist_pages/kikiandherb_102501.html Richard in San Francisco n.p. - Sting "King of Pain" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 17:23:26 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Louie, Louie (all the words) NJC Louie Louie, me gotta go. Louie Louie, me gotta go. Fine little girl she waits for me. Me catch the ship for cross the sea. Me sail the ship all alone. Me never think me make it home. Three nights and days me sail the sea. Me think of girl constantly. On the ship I dream she there. I smell the rose in her hair. Me see Jamaica moon above. It wont be long, me see my love. I take her in my arms and then Me tell her I never leave again. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 17:46:30 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: The Fourth Estate, a letter NJC I guess that a response to Kate's post quoting the professor would be to look up the facts of what the professor says, not accuse him of being a Marxist and go through that tired, old love it or leave it thing. It is very presumptuous to question someone else's love of this country because they point out accurately some of the things that have been done by our country. Some research into history rather than trashing the professor would seem to fit into the concept of "life is for learning." I thought that facts posted by the professor were rather accurate readings of US history. We have a responsibly, if we love our country, and that responsibility is to be the best citizens that we can. I suggest that means that we be educated, aware, knowledgeable citizens. Ignorance of our history and smearing with terms such as "Marxist" those who teach our history is not a positive contribution to our nation. And being a true patriot is not in have blinders on, or picking and choosing to know only happy little thoughts about our national history. We have a very rich and diverse and textured history, some of it good, and of it bad. Our nation has done things that are truly awesome, and some things of which we should be ashamed and resolve never to do again. Slavery would be an example of the latter. So would the list of foreign policy misdeeds that Kate quoted the professor as citing. It was put quite well by Carl Schurz (1829-1906, a U.S. general and senator) to the U.S. Senate, Jan. 17, 1872: Our country right or wrong. When right, to be kept right; when wrong, to be put right. If we don't know our own history, how can we put our country right? (the Rev) Vince ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 14:29:45 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: The Fourth Estate, a letter NJC >>>I want to do more research about the Professor Francisco Gil-White to see his background and motivations before I get too much into this.<<< a very good idea... >>>It's no secret that our educational systems in the U.S. have long been either dominated or heavily influenced by them. (Marxists)<<< i have spent most of my life in the public school system, as a student, parent volunteer, elementary school teacher & grant writer (working closely with professors of many disciplines)...& what you say about our educational system is news to me... >>>However, I am very suspect of people who want to focus their questioning all on U.S. actions, especially U.S. actions of half a century ago.<<< I don't understand this reasoning. 50 years doesn't seem like very long to me as far as history goes...especially if it is applicable to the current situation... >>>I am doubtful that anyone other than a few experts in U.S. policy in the middle east, can really present a comprehensive and objective view that includes ALL factors made by all parties concerned which led to decisions made years ago, and perhaps out of context to today's situation.<<< I don't think you can separate the past from the present. A historical perspective is essential for understanding the factors currently at play & I do not think that this perspective is limited to a few experts. >>>I think we absolutely do need to figure how how we have come to this point, but I don't think we need to only consider our enemies explanations for it. I agree it is a very complex situation.<<< I am not sure what explanations you are referring to when you say our enemies. The only person I think we can say for sure is our enemy is Osama & his followers, but we have not been discussing his explanations here. Mike from Barcelona recently posted a comment from someone in the US military (I can't remember his name or rank) who talked about his role in protecting US corporate interests as being the primary goal of US foreign policy when he was part of the military. (sorry I am paraphrasing, I think this was the gist of his comments...maybe Mike would like to post this again). Complex, it is. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 16:49:52 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: Re: "Smut" on the list njc > o.k. I gave myself flexibility for my last birthday. I don't use profane > words there anyway. However, still take exception to the purveyors of smut > comment and do not consider anyone here to be that and therefore to hear > them called them angers me. no flexibility on that and no apologies either. > > mack ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 16:51:55 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: smut njc called that. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 18:06:23 -0400 From: "Stephen Epstein" Subject: Globe and Mail Tribute review Hi all, In today's Toronto Globe and Mail there is a review of Friday night's Harbourfront Tribute- go to www.globeandmail.com and click on the heading near the top "The Arts". It is the 2nd or 3rd article down. (As I am on Lotus Notes for e-mail, it is next to impossible for me to send it directly!!) Do check it out today, as it was in this morning's paper! My report to follow later- it was utterly fantastic!!! Best Stephen in Vancouver ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 17:06:36 -0500 From: "Pitassi, Mary" Subject: RE: the 4th estate (NJC) A couple of points on a dreary, rainy afternoon in the Midwest of the U.S.A. Kakki wrote, in response to the article Kate Bennett posted: "I would ask first if the professor is a Marxist, and if he is not I would refer him to this article and then ask him which side he wants to live under." To which I reply: WHOA!!! Are you saying that one has to be, or is likely to be, a Marxist to criticize American foreign policy in the way that the author of the article has? If so, I must respectfully but strenuously disagree. While I have never purported to be anything other than a good old-fashioned, died-in-the-wool liberal, I am certainly no Marxist, economically or politically. However, I agree with a good many of the professor's points. My favorite is probably, "Stay away from the ridiculous claims that we are hated because we respect individual liberties. In the Muslim world, over and over again, we consistently HAVE NOT respected individual liberties but rather supported tin-pot dictators." I think that this is, unfortunately, all too true, especially in Latin America, as well as in the Middle East. But, as that much-maligned Robert Fisk article from a while back pointed out (correctly, I thought), when we in the U.S. speak glowingly of "individual liberties," we're really talking about the liberties of *American citizens,* and not those of the nationals of other countries who may well make it possible, directly and indirectly, for us to maintain our American lifestyles. And, too often, we're referring to the liberties and lifestyles of only *some* American citizens, at that. Kate Bennett then wrote in response: "All of this to say that what concerns me the most, in this war against terrorism, is that it is being reduced to some kind of Batman type of scenario of good vs evil. It is far more complex than that. And that kind of good vs. evil rhetoric is off putting to me. I know I am not the only one that feels that way." Kate, this has worried me greatly, too. I am not a pacifist. I do believe firmly in our country's right to defend itself in light of the attacks of September 11, although, as far I'm concerned, the jury is still out on the efficacy of military action against this amorphous, multi-national new enemy, organized terrorism. Yet when President Bush stated in his speech of September 20 or so that the Taliban hates us because of "what they see in these two chambers" (i.e., a democratic government), and then proceeded to produce a laundry list of the curtailment of individual liberties in Afghanistan, I couldn't help but wonder. How is "they hate us because of our devotion to the great principles of democracy" conceptually different, in any way, from "they hate us for our devotion to the tenets of holy Islam?" Both statements laud the speaker's group for something recognized by the intended audience as a good, and both demonize the Other. Both statements appear designed, at least in part, to gear up those audiences for a long, protracted fight. Tellingly, however, both neglect to mention the down-and-dirty, rough-and-tumble political and economic realities that may have contributed far more to this conflict than either side's devotion to its respective Greater Good. Finally, Kate wrote: "I do believe that in order to "fight" terrorism we need to understand why it exists. I don't mean trying to understand Osama, but trying to understand why he appeals to his followers. And why others who do not support his terrorist acts still relate to him. What are the conditions that have created this situation. And what are the conditions that could alleviate this for future generations?" I agree completely. Let's be united, and let's protect our nation from this horrifying threat in the best, most efficient way we can. But while we're doing so, let's remember that it is NOT unpatriotic to admit that our country has sometimes done wrong. After all, it is composed of and led by men and women who, while they may have a great many admirable attributes, are also only flawed human beings. Nor is it unpatriotic to consider that, although there can be absolutely no justification raised for the terrible, violent acts of September 11, 2001, the question of justification for the *anger* that fueled those acts is much, much more complicated. Who was it who said, "those who do not master the lessons of history are doomed to repeat it?" I fervently hope that we will not be so doomed. Off my soapbox--back to my listening corner. Mary P., Madison. P.S. The view outside my window is starting to look positively Hejira-like. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 14:56:58 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: Subject: Joni Sept. 11th paintings in LA TImes Kakki, I understand why you must feel hesitant to share joni's views which she shared with you. That her view is unique is no suprise! I hope we will hear from her soon too. I hope you can find a place of serenity Kakki. In spite of all that is going on, there is so much beauty that surrounds us that can heal us. Being surrounded by nature & children always brings me back to that joyful place. ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 18:18:44 EDT From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC Louie Louie, etc etc Vince Lavieri wrote: >Prior to Jefferson Airplane's "We Can Be Together" ('we cheat lie forge >fred fuck hide and deal' and I never knew what 'fred' was), Being a Fred myself, I certainly know what "fred" is ... the lyric is printed in the liner notes as: "we steal cheat lie forge fred hide and deal." "fred" is obviously a typographical placeholder for what they actually sing, which is "fuck." >the first use that I can recall was in the opening words of another San >Francisco band's song, "Feel Like I'm Fixin' to Die" which opened the >"Fish Cheer" - Give me an F! Give me a U! etc... Speaking of which, check this out: LOS ANGELES (AP) - Country Joe McDonald is being sued for allegedly stealing the tune of his 1965 protest song ``I-Feel-Like-I'm-Fixin'-to-Die-Rag'' from a 1926 song by famed jazz trombonist Kid Ory. Ory's daughter, Babette Ory, filed the lawsuit last month in U.S. District Court in Los Angeles. She claims McDonald stole the tune to her father's ``Muskrat Ramble'' and argues that McDonald's infringement was intentional. According to the lawsuit, Ory told McDonald in July that his song infringed on her father's copyright, but he continued to perform it. Under copyright law, she may seek damages for performances of the song only in the past three years and for any performances since its filing. ``Damage for intentional infringement can be up to $150,000 for every time the song has been performed over the past three years,'' Ory's lawyer, Neville Johnson, told the Los Angeles Times. ``McDonald released it on a record, sang it on a TV series, 'Tales of the City' - it's hard to tell how much that will amount to. His song is an American classic, it's just too bad that it infringed on another one.'' The lawsuit asks for unspecified damages and an order barring McDonald from performing the song. It comes just at the time when the recording may be gaining new popularity because of the military action in Afghanistan. The 59-year-old McDonald, head of one of the leading psychedelic political bands of the 1960s and a solo artist since 1970, conceded that he's been a fan of Kid Ory but denied he copped the tune. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 18:32:38 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: God Angrily Clarifies 'Don't Kill' Rule (njc) http://www.theonion.com/onion3734/god_clarifies_dont_kill.html [TABLE NOT SHOWN][TABLE NOT SHOWN][TABLE NOT SHOWN] God Angrily Clarifies 'Don't Kill' Rule NEW YORKResponding to recent events on Earth, God, the omniscient creator-deity worshipped by billions of followers of various faiths for more than 6,000 years, angrily clarified His longtime stance against humans killing each other Monday. [TABLE NOT SHOWN] "Look, I don't know, maybe I haven't made myself completely clear, so for the record, here it is again," said the Lord, His divine face betraying visible emotion during a press conference near the site of the fallen Twin Towers. "Somehow, people keep coming up with the idea that I want them to kill their neighbor. Well, I don't. And to be honest, I'm really getting sick and tired of it. Get it straight. Not only do I not want anybody to kill anyone, but I specifically commanded you not to, in really simple terms that anybody ought to be able to understand." [TABLE NOT SHOWN] Worshipped by Christians, Jews, and Muslims alike, God said His name has been invoked countless times over the centuries as a reason to kill in what He called "an unending cycle of violence." "I don't care how holy somebody claims to be," God said. "If a person tells you it's My will that they kill someone, they're wrong. Got it? I don't care what religion you are, or who you think your enemy is, here it is one more time: No killing, in My name or anyone else's, ever again." The press conference came as a surprise to humankind, as God rarely intervenes in earthly affairs. As a matter of longstanding policy, He has traditionally left the task of interpreting His message and divine will to clerics, rabbis, priests, imams, and Biblical scholars. Theologians and laymen alike have been given the task of pondering His ineffable mysteries, deciding for themselves what to do as a matter of faith. His decision to manifest on the material plane was motivated by the deep sense of shock, outrage, and sorrow He felt over the Sept. 11 violence carried out in His name, and over its dire potential ramifications around the globe. "I tried to put it in the simplest possible terms for you people, so you'd get it straight, because I thought it was pretty important," said God, called Yahweh and Allah respectively in the Judaic and Muslim traditions. "I guess I figured I'd left no real room for confusion after putting it in a four-word sentence with one-syllable words, on the tablets I gave to Moses. How much more clear can I get?" "But somehow, it all gets twisted around and, next thing you know, somebody's spouting off some nonsense about, 'God says I have to kill this guy, God wants me to kill that guy, it's God's will,'" God continued. "It's not God's will, all right? News flash: 'God's will' equals 'Don't murder people.'" Worse yet, many of the worst violators claim that their actions are justified by passages in the Bible, Torah, and Qur'an. "To be honest, there's some contradictory stuff in there, okay?" God said. "So I can see how it could be pretty misleading. I admit itMy bad. I did My best to inspire them, but a lot of imperfect human agents have misinterpreted My message over the millennia. Frankly, much of the material that got in there is dogmatic, doctrinal bullshit. I turn My head for a second and, suddenly, all this stuff about homosexuality gets into Leviticus, and everybody thinks it's God's will to kill gays. It absolutely drives Me up the wall." God praised the overwhelming majority of His Muslim followers as "wonderful, pious people," calling the perpetrators of the Sept. 11 attacks rare exceptions. "This whole medieval concept of the jihad, or holy war, had all but vanished from the Muslim world in, like, the 10th century, and with good reason," God said. "There's no such thing as a holy war, only unholy ones. The vast majority of Muslims in this world reject the murderous actions of these radical extremists, just like the vast majority of Christians in America are pissed off over those two bigots on The 700 Club." Continued God, "Read the book: 'Allah is kind, Allah is beautiful, Allah is merciful.' It goes on and on that way, page after page. But, no, some assholes have to come along and revive this stupid holy-war crap just to further their own hateful agenda. So now, everybody thinks Muslims are all murderous barbarians. Thanks, Taliban: 1,000 years of pan-Islamic cultural progress down the drain." God stressed that His remarks were not directed exclusively at Islamic extremists, but rather at anyone whose ideological zealotry overrides his or her ability to comprehend the core message of all world religions. "I don't care what faith you are, everybody's been making this same mistake since the dawn of time," God said. "The Muslims massacre the Hindus, the Hindus massacre the Muslims. The Buddhists, everybody massacres the Buddhists. The Jews, don't even get me started on the hardline, right-wing, Meir Kahane-loving Israeli nationalists, man. And the Christians? You people believe in a Messiah who says, 'Turn the other cheek,' but you've been killing everybody you can get your hands on since the Crusades." Growing increasingly wrathful, God continued: "Can't you people see? What are you, morons? There are a ton of different religious traditions out there, and different cultures worship Me in different ways. But the basic message is always the same: Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Shintoism... every religious belief system under the sun, they all say you're supposed to love your neighbors, folks! It's not that hard a concept to grasp." "Why would you think I'd want anything else? Humans don't need religion or God as an excuse to kill each otheryou've been doing that without any help from Me since you were freaking apes!" God said. "The whole point of believing in God is to have a higher standard of behavior. How obvious can you get?" "I'm talking to all of you, here!" continued God, His voice rising to a shout. "Do you hear Me? I don't want you to kill anybody. I'm against it, across the board. How many times do I have to say it? Don't kill each other anymoreever! I'm fucking serious!" Upon completing His outburst, God fell silent, standing quietly at the podium for several moments. Then, witnesses reported, God's shoulders began to shake, and He wept. [IMAGE] ) Copyright 2001 Onion, Inc., All rights reserved. http://www.theonion.com/ [TABLE NOT SHOWN][TABLE NOT SHOWN] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 17:32:47 -0500 From: "Pitassi, Mary" Subject: Proximity to perfection The wonderfully-named Jimmy Stewart wrote: "WELL, in they walked, one after the other as my jaw hit the floor. Kilauren sat in front of me, Larry Klein in front of Rick, and Joni sat in front of Janine! It was the closest I've ever been to Joni." CONGRATULATIONS, Jimmy, Coyote Rick, and Janine! For your good fortune, as well as your impeccable behavior. You done us proud! Your happy surprise reminds me a little of my own Brush With Greatness in October of 1998. After returning from Joni's concert in suburban Detroit to our very nice hotel, where we had already met Joni earlier that afternoon, a few JMDLers and I wandered into the hotel restaurant, where a good number of our group were already assembled. I sat down at the table and was probably chatting up a storm when somebody poked my arm gently and pointed backward. Well, my jaw dropped to about 10 feet lower than the floor: there, at the table behind us, sat Joni, Larry Klein, Brian Blade, and a few others whose names I can't recall at the moment. Suffice it to say that, for the greater part of an hour, one side of my chair was *back to back* with Joni's as she enjoyed what I hope was a very good dinner. And for the first time in my life, I was stunned into silence! Mary P. NP in my head: "I remember that night when you told me, love is touching chairs." Or something like that. ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 18:39:04 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Hijackers Surprised To Find Selves In Hell: 'We Expected Eternal Paradise For This,' Say Suicide Bombers http://www.theonion.com/onion3734/hijackers_surprised.html [TABLE NOT SHOWN][TABLE NOT SHOWN][TABLE NOT SHOWN] Hijackers Surprised To Find Selves In Hell: 'We Expected Eternal Paradise For This,' Say Suicide Bombers JAHANNEM, OUTER DARKNESSThe hijackers who carried out the Sept. 11 attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon expressed confusion and surprise Monday to find themselves in the lowest plane of Na'ar, Islam's Hell. [TABLE NOT SHOWN] "I was promised I would spend eternity in Paradise, being fed honeyed cakes by 67 virgins in a tree-lined garden, if only I would fly the airplane into one of the Twin Towers," said Mohammed Atta, one of the hijackers of American Airlines Flight 11, between attempts to vomit up the wasps, hornets, and live coals infesting his stomach. "But instead, I am fed the boiling feces of traitors by malicious, laughing Ifrit. Is this to be my reward for destroying the enemies of my faith?" [TABLE NOT SHOWN] The rest of Atta's words turned to raw-throated shrieks, as a tusked, asp-tongued demon burst his eyeballs and drank the fluid that ran down his face. According to Hell sources, the 19 eternally damned terrorists have struggled to understand why they have been subjected to soul-withering, infernal torture ever since their Sept. 11 arrival. "There was a tumultuous conflagration of burning steel and fuel at our gates, and from it stepped forth these hijackers, the blessed name of the Lord already turning to molten brass on their accursed lips," said Iblis The Thrice-Damned, the cacodemon charged with conscripting new arrivals into the ranks of the forgotten. "Indeed, I do not know what they were expecting, but they certainly didn't seem prepared to be skewered from eye socket to bunghole and then placed on a spit so that their flesh could be roasted by the searing gale of flatus which issues forth from the haunches of Asmoday." "Which is strange when you consider the evil with which they ended their lives and those of so many others," added Iblis, absentmindedly twisting the limbs of hijacker Abdul Aziz Alomari into unspeakably obscene shapes. "I was told that these Americans were enemies of the one true religion, and that Heaven would be my reward for my noble sacrifice," said Alomari, moments before his jaw was sheared away by faceless homunculi. "But now I am forced to suckle from the 16 poisoned leathern teats of Gophahmet, Whore of Betrayal, until I burst from an unwholesome engorgement of curdled bile. This must be some sort of terrible mistake." Exacerbating the terrorists' tortures, which include being hollowed out and used as prophylactics by thorn-cocked Gulbuth The Rampant, is the fact that they will be forced to endure such suffering in sight of the Paradise they were expecting. "It might actually be the most painful thing we can do, to show these murderers the untold pleasures that would have awaited them in Paradise, if only they had lived pious lives," said Praxitas, Duke of Those Willingly Led Astray. "I mean, it's tough enough being forced through a wire screen by the callused palms of Halcorym and then having your entrails wound onto a stick and fed to the toothless, foul-breathed swine of Gehenna. But to endure that while watching the righteous drink from a river of wine? That can't be fun." Underworld officials said they have not yet decided on a permanent punishment for the terrorists. "Eventually, we'll settle on an eternal and unending task for them," said Lord Androalphus, High Praetor of Excruciations. "But for now, everyone down here wants a crack at them. The legions of fang-wombed hags will take their pleasure on their shattered carcasses for most of this afternoon. Tomorrow, their flesh will be melted from their bones like wax in the burning embrace of the Mother of Cowards. The day after that, they'll be sodomized by the Fallen and their bowels shredded by a demonic ejaculate of burning sand. Then, on Sunday, Satan gets them all day. I can't even imagine what he's got cooked up for them." [IMAGE] ) Copyright 2001 Onion, Inc., All rights reserved. http://www.theonion.com/ [TABLE NOT SHOWN][TABLE NOT SHOWN] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 18:39:28 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Subject: Joni Sept. 11th paintings in LA TImes In a message dated 10/22/01 4:38:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, KakkiB@worldnet.att.net writes: > As I wrote previously Joni did give us some of her thoughts > about Sept. 11th which I hesitated to relate to the list because 1) I didn't > feel right about repeating her before she made an "official" kind of > statement in an interview, song, etc., 2) we may not have heard her entire > viewpoint on the subject and I did not want to cheat her by relating it > before perhaps not having all of her thoughts on it. I will give a hint, > though, ;-) and say that the viewpoint she expressed is very unique and not > at all geo-political in nature, either way, but she did place accountability > in a non-political sector. I will also say that her viewpoints may be > "politically incorrect" in certain circles, even though those viewpoints are > not political in the traditional sense. I respect your decision, especially because you are not sure that you heard her viewpoint in its entirety. I can only hope that Joni has a more realistic outlook than Richard Gere. Though I only have heard secondhand what he had to say Saturday at the concert in New York, I consider him an embarrassment to Americans. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 18:42:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: NJC Re: Joni- Toronto World Leader's Tribute- Part 3 LOL! Bdidn't bBill bCosby bhave a bcharacter who bspoke blike bthat? - --- SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > Asharab, Ididnbthave anybproblem readingbyour > postsb! Thankbsfor allbthe greatbreporting! :~D > > Bob > > NbP: ElvisbCostello, "Days"b Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 15:23:00 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: Subject: Joni Sept. 11th paintings in LA TImes LOL, so what did richard say, paul? >>>I respect your decision, especially because you are not sure that you heard her viewpoint in its entirety. I can only hope that Joni has a more realistic outlook than Richard Gere. Though I only have heard secondhand what he had to say Saturday at the concert in New York, I consider him an embarrassment to Americans. Paul I <<>< ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 18:49:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: from Emily Gray TEDROWE (!!!) Hurray for you, Emily! Sounds like a really FUN wedding - just the way it should be! Much happiness to you ... and your.... husband! - --- Emily K Gray wrote: > hi all. courtney and i got hitched on saturday, > 10/20. > it was beautiful, a small and perfect gem of a > ceremony > (officiated by ourselves and including a part where > *I* > told *HIM* "you may now kiss the bride!"). (I especially like that part - ^ right up there.) Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 18:50:59 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Joni Sept. 11th paintings in LA TImes NJC Paul says: > > > I can only hope that Joni has a more realistic outlook than Richard Gere. > Though I only have heard secondhand what he had to say Saturday at the > concert in New York, I consider him an embarrassment to Americans. That is real intellectual of you Paul! Secondhand information is the sign of any serious scholar! Your studies and research must exhaust you, perhaps why you left the NJC off the subject line? But the biggest irony is, how would you respond if Richard Gere and/or a group of Americans considered you an embarrassment to Americans? Does this go both ways? Personally, Paul, I consider neither you nor Richard Gere as embarrassments to Americans. But Richard Gere's advantage over you is he would never insult someone else publicly. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 18:51:02 EDT From: TimandMaryPowers@aol.com Subject: Blame the victims NJC In a message dated 10/22/01 12:47:57 AM, kate@katebennett.com writes: >Finally, we have been supporting Israel since its inception, even though >it is a state born of terrorist violence, and even though its abuses have >been many. some thoughts First, let me get this out of my system: I agree with the points that the letter-writer made, except for the point about Israel. So getting 1/3 of your population going up in smoke with the whole world (few exceptions) not giving a damn is not supposed to motivate the Jews to *do* something? Excuse me, why does all this talk of "root causes" never extend to the Jews? After the Holocaust they were the most victimized people on Earth, can you really blame them for turning to terrorism? Not to excuse Israel for its human rights abuses, but if we're going to talk "root causes" of things, I think having 6,000,000 people going up in smoke (when they weren't shot and dumped in mass graves) with the whole rest of the world basically saying 'so what' is a damned good explanation for terrorism. There is an element of anti-Semitism in this "root cause" commentary that really upsets me. Why is it that we castigate the US for its human rights abuses and foreign policy errors (of which there are many) and ignore the extensive list of atrocities committed against the Jews (of which there are so many that it's hard to even list them all). It's easy to blame the victim. If these "root cause" proponents would admit that's part of what they are doing, I would respect them more. Blaming the victim makes the world seem less frightening, because then you can say 'but they deserved it'. It was not foreign policy moguls who were killed, it was just plain ordinary people. But if they are guilty by virtue of being American, then they got what was coming to them anyway. How different is that from saying 'the stupid bitch deserved what she got'? In fact, something I saw on another listserv explicitly compared America to a woman who wore a miniskirt on a deserted street late at night, and got brutally raped and beaten. The point being, she needed to learn her lesson about revealing clothing, but when she was in the emergency room getting treated for her rape it was too soon to start lecturing. In other words, Americans won't listen to criticism while feelings are so raw. Hindsight is 20/20. Yes, the US has screwed up in many ways. And your point is? If we are isolationist, we are damned for that (ie abandoning Afghanistan). If we meddle, we are damned for that too. And besides which, a lot of our decisions were based on fear of Russia, and at least there you have to admit that we did not have the nuclear war that everyone feared. So there at least, Russia and the US did something right. OK, that all said - Kate's letter writer is absolutely right about US errors and I think there needs to be a serious discussion of what US foreign policy should be. Do we meddle or not? Are we the world's policeman? To what extent do we rescue people in trouble? How much are we willing to pay and how many lives do we risk? These questions don't have easy answers, but I think we need to discuss. And, no matter what anyone says, we can't do everything right. If we set our standards high, we will screw it up a significant percentage of the time because we are imperfect human beings. We have to live with that. what bothers me most about this commentary is the idea that if the US would just stop fucking up, tragedies wouldn't happen. We are human and tragedies happen. It is not something we can control. Nor do we have a crystal ball. and what's this about america covering up "its women"? am I not equally an American citizen? (I will not get started, but this implies women are a possession. Since when do you hear about America and "its men"?) mary ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 18:53:06 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Subject: Joni Sept. 11th paintings in LA TImes In a message dated 10/22/01 6:43:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kate@katebennett.com writes: > LOL, so what did richard say, paul? > > Admittedly this is secondhand, but he apparently appealed to those in the crowd to embrace bin Laden and to forgive him and his band of terrorists. We should reach out with kindness to this killers of civilians and invite them to join us at our table. This is from a Richard Gere website: New York (ABCNEWS.com) b Richard Gere, who is deeply devoted to the teachings of the Dalai Lama, says the best way for Americans to deal with the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks is with "the medicine of love and compassion.""In a situation like this, of course you identify with everyone who's suffering," the actor told ABCNEWS Radio in an exclusive interview. But, he said, we must also think about "the terrorists who are creating such horrible future lives for themselves because of the negativity of this karma. If you see it from a much wider point of view, we're all in this together. We're all intimately interconnected in all of these actions." Gere was in New York on Tuesday to help celebrate the release of Good Life, Good Death, a book by Rinpoche Nawang Gehlek, a Buddhist lama, or teacher. The event was planned before the Sept. 11 terror attacks, and included performances from Paul Simon, his wife Edie Brickell, and composer Philip Glass.Love as Medicine One of Hollywood's most vocal advocates of Buddhism, Gere stressed the importance of compassion for everyone b even terrorists. "It's all of our jobs to keep our minds as expansive as possible," said Gere, star of such movies as Runaway Bride, Pretty Woman, and Primal Fear. "If you can see them [the terrorists] as a relative who's dangerously sick and we have to give them medicine, and the medicine is love and compassion. There's nothing better." Gere said he was on his way to a Buddhist retreat in Massachusetts on the day of the attacks, and arrived just after the attack on the World Trade Center began. "I got there about 10 o'clock, and when I arrived there, everyone was in a state because the first tower had been hit," he said. "Within a few minutes, the second tower had been hit and it was, um, extraordinary chaos. An enormous amount of tears and a lot of compassion and suffering was being generated there in this retreat." This isn't the first time Gere has publicly advocated using love to deal with international incidents. At the 1993 Oscars, he asked the audience and the millions watching the awards ceremony on television to send "love and truth" to then-Chinese leader Deng Xiaoping to persuade him to pull Chinese troops from Tibet. bDavid Blaustein ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 18:54:36 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni Sept. 11th paintings in LA TImes NJC In a message dated 10/22/01 6:51:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, revrvl@chartermi.net writes: > But Richard Gere's advantage over you is he would never insult someone else > publicly. Ah, but I think he insulted all 6,000 police officers and firemen in the front rows of that crowd when he spewed forth his statements. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 18:58:14 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: "Smut" on the list! A suggestion (NJC) << Some on this list access the JMDL from work, and others might not wish their own children to see certain subject lines at home. >> It's a legitimate beef, and it's one we've had before...when the topic was Joni's anatomy. It was agreed that those of us that pick up our mail publicly would appreciate not seeing those words in the subject lines. Doesn't have anything to do with content, just the subject line. Remember, like Wally says, when in doubt, use 'feck'! ;~) Bob NP: Bonnie Raitt, "Slow Ride" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 16:02:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Quick Hits (VLJC) long Hi All! First of all to everyone in Toronto who feasted on the festivities ... How wonderful for all of you and thanks for keeping us posted. I guess I wasn't that excited till you all got there and started posting. But we want to hear more, - every little detail. Ashara, what a great post ... it was way better having you report than E! I will be reading that over and over to make sure I can see everything that happened as if I were there ... And then there's Mags, my newest friend since leaving Jonifest 2001. What beautiful verse you wrote and were kind enough to share with all of us. Another post I will read again and again. I am so glad you are there to enjoy this with Brei. Both of these posts had me - of course - in tears, but tears of joy and a tiny bit of envy. I want to speak about the attacks & our reaction. I wish I was in a good enough place with all that has happened to get my thoughts in better order, but I am not very confrontational and I wince at some of the personal attacks and insinuations I have seen here. So please be easy with me - I am a big chicken. Guess I am ready to roll ... But just some quick hits, I am a pacifist with a temper. Okay no Billy Jack jokes, ... well it's the first thing that came into my head after I wrote that damnned sentence. Seriously though,I believe in pursuing justice for as long as possible in a non-violent manner. BUT comes a time when we can not accept all the guilt and be our own worst enemy, nor be so complacent that we get walked all over. What kind of action at that point should be well planned and thought out. After reading many of Kate's posts here since the horrific event, I too felt that violence was not necessarily the first & only or the best way to go. But I also don't pretend to know what the right answer is, I was impressed with Bush's first few days - 2 weeks after the "event." But I think he is feeling way too comfortable in his skin right now and that attitude can trigger even more animosity. I am trying NOT to entice or insult anyone here, so believe me I was shocked and glad he handled things as well as he did ... early on. But for all we say about the need for war - the longer it goes on the more innocent people will be killed, maimed, starve etc. And guess what ... I am a little worried about "me" in all of this. I am so sorry, but I think it was someone from Chicago (Fred?) as he used the Sears Tower in his example, I too fear the reality of nuclear disaster from these "suitcase nukes." I am more scared than at any time during the Cold War. I have been working out in my head, when I get depressed or bored, escape plans or safer places to live. Sometimes I feel crazy cause this seems to be the last thing everyone thinks is going to happen. What are we doing about defending against that or is it this real - THERE MAY BE NO DEFENSE FOR THIS OCCURRENCE! I have had several "Nuke" dreams, this is NOT like me at all. I think many nights, during train rides to work or home, waiting in store lines about the horror almost 6,000 people had to face their last moments on earth and it makes me sick. I think of the thousands more who waited for days for loved ones to come home and didn't and my heart bleeds. But I think about picking on a war torn devastated country and look at the pain in their faces and I can not look away. Can you? Since 1976, that's 25 years to make a policy or carry out a plan in the middle east. I won't go into my Regan bashing here & now but he was soo used against Jimmy Carter by Iran. He must have thought after the hostages were released that he actually had a plan in place so far as the Middle East was concerned. For that matter every administration since has failed to see that light and I who once had a comfort zone where these matters were concerned ... feel it no longer. So now we must start from the bottom and work ourselves up. We must ALL get rid of ALL that is nuclear, we must keep our noses in our own business and we must build solutions that are based on our common threads. Perhaps as a country it is time for us to take that road less traveled. Before the roads are all destroyed. This is not giving up or in, it is how heroes & history & victories are made. I am not a hero ... I my friends am very scared for my family - for me and for all of you beautiful people. I know I have rambled, but I have a bit more to say to our little community. Kate thank you for helping me not to simply react. I was reminded of my Robin in many of the words and thoughts you focused on and I was reminded to continue on with her dream of peace through pacifism. Thank you Kakki for your well thought out views and the non-confrontational way you present them. Two people with opposing views who actually listen to each other! Ahhh what a wonderful world it can be. Anne thanks for your poem, it touched us all deeply. So many more posts or words that I can't pin on the correct person, but thank you all. You certainly have all been a comfort to me this past month. And to all the gang on JMDLEZ, thanks for just being who you all are. There are days when I just want to destroy everything in our way, but I am reminded that I am an American - a human - I am civilized - I feel pain - and I remember that there are more people who come together than pull apart ... Imagine, I do and I know I am not the only one. Well I may have come in as bright as a neon light and burned out right here before you but I was boiling over with my thoughts and I wind up going all over the place. Anyway there is my two cents. Let's all keep talking but let's all do more listening. Peace Susan Well that took up about 2 hours of work oh well time to go! Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2001 #505 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?