From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2001 #502 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Sunday, October 21 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 502 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Today's Articles: October 21 [les@jmdl.com] Re: Press Release [Murphycopy@aol.com] Joni and Alanis question [Nuriel Tobias ] Re: A memo to American Muslims - NJC ["Marian" ] Re: nix on the anthrax - njc - smallpox fears ["Marian" ] joni and jazz ["Mario De Tullio" ] njc - smallpox fears ["Wally Kairuz" ] RE: in this moment ["Wally Kairuz" ] What ever happened to Toronto? [Murphycopy@aol.com] RE: Joni and Alanis question njc ["Wally Kairuz" ] RE: What ever happened to Toronto? njc ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: njc - smallpox fears ["Marian" ] Re: What ever happened to Toronto? ["J. R. Mills" ] Re: joni and jazz [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: in this moment [Mags ] Re: in this moment [Bobsart48@aol.com] RE: Huh? NJC ["Mike Pritchard" ] RE: embarrassed fans NJC ["Mike Pritchard" ] Re: Doctor's pills give you brand new ills (NJC) ["Mike Pritchard" ] Joni does NOT like Alanis [Relayer211@aol.com] Who does Joni like? NJC [TimandMaryPowers@aol.com] she lays her hands down [Mags ] RE: where I'm coming from NJC (longish) ["Mike Pritchard" ] Lama's mistakeNJC [colin ] RE: What ever happened to Toronto? njc [Mags N Brei ] Re: she lays her hands down [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Re: Pamela Wallin's latest book [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Teena Marie njc ["Dolphie Bush" ] Fw: joni question ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Huh? NJC ["Dolphie Bush" ] Re: War and ideology (njc) [Richard Stevens ] JONI-in the LA Times [Kammass@aol.com] Re: DCC 24 kt gold Court & Spark [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: New Joni Paintings in Sunday L.A. Times Magazine [Phyliss Ward > Wow, Kate, what are the chances of that! Love you, --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 01:41:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Joni and Alanis question Hi everyone What does Joni think of Alanis and her music?... I'm asking cause i was sure i didn't like Alanis till i heard "No Pressure Over Cappucino" and "Joining You" (From the unplugged show)and now I wonder who else is writing lyrics about young folks with such an amazing insight and so painfuly naked these days but Alanis. I can "understand" Joni's "problem" with anyone who isn't a guitarmaster and a harmonygenius like her but out of all those who claim to be "influenced" by Joni's lyrics Alanis seems like she's the only one (that i can think of) that Joni should give a big hug. Alanis bonus track ("All afternoon"?) from her "Jagged Little Pil" album where she sings "J-O-N-I" so loud and sweet paints such a beautiful picture of a Joni fan (the boy Alanis is in love with in the song) that i get the shivers. Hope you'll tell me. Nuriel _____________________________________________________________ Free email, web pages, news, entertainment, weather and MORE! Check out -------------------------------> http://wowmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 10:53:55 +0100 From: "Marian" Subject: Re: A memo to American Muslims - NJC On Sat, 20 Oct 2001 16:52:11 EDT FredNow@aol.com wrote: >> No matter how much we condemn it, and point >> to the Quran and the Sunnah to argue that Islam >> forbids the killing of innocent people, the fact >> remains that the perpetrators of this crime against >> humanity have indicated that their actions are >> sanctioned by Islamic values. > "The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose." > -William Shakespeare, poet > and dramatist (1564-1616) > - -Fred > ------------------------------ Nice one, Fred! Marian marian@jmdl.com http://www.jmdl.com/guitar/marian/guitar.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 11:04:28 +0100 From: "Marian" Subject: Re: nix on the anthrax - njc - smallpox fears On Sat, 20 Oct 2001 16:33:31 EDT FredNow@aol.com wrote: > No, what I'm worried about is smallpox ... > there is no cure, it's very contagious (easily > spread by coughing, sneezing and other general > contact), and fatal in many cases, permanently > scarring in survivors. A terrorist could easily > infect himself and then wander around > infecting people, who would in turn infect > others, who would ... you get the idea. > Supposedly, remaining cultures exist in > only two well-guarded locations in the > world, but terrorism experts agree that > other unauthorized cultures exist in > Russia, North Korea, and possibly Iraq. > Very scary. I also worry about this, but I did some research. Apparently smallpox is only contagious at the point at which a person is so sick that they are bedridden and the people who contract it from a sick person are generally those who are caring for her/him. It's not like a cold or the flu where you're contagious immediately. The way it could be transmitted would be from, well releasing the virus somehow into the air, or leaving items around that had been worn or used by an infected person during the time that they were in the contagious stage. The American immigrants intentionally wiped out much of the Native Indian population by giving them blankets which had been used for people who died of smallpox. What's scary is that it's no longer possible to get vaccinated - at least not possible for the general public. This has been the case for 27 years. I was probably vaccinated twice during my life, so maybe I would have a milder case, but I can't get my children vaccinated. That really scares me. Marian marian@jmdl.com http://www.jmdl.com/guitar/marian/guitar.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 11:14:14 +0200 From: "Mario De Tullio" Subject: joni and jazz Thank you very much for your (Cindy, Kakki, Bob, Kate, Jerry) encouraging comments on my English. I am mainly a jazz fan, so I met Joni's music through Mingus (Jaco could actually swing like nobody else!). I also like very much the sound of BSN, which reminds me of the Gil Evans orchestra. I must confess that I do not know much about Joni's work between these two albums. Can anybody suggest where I can find articles about Joni and Jazz music? Thanks, Mario NP: Oregon, Alpenbridge ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 06:18:23 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: njc - smallpox fears i was talking about this with a bunch of immunologists today. a few people and organizations have received ''anthrax envelopes'' in buenos aires and in cordoba [central argentina], so biowar is a local concern too. smallpox vaccination was stopped in argentina in 1974. a new vaccine is being developed locally. apparently, people who were vaccinated before the 70's [my case] are still immune. the mortality rate for smallpox cases is 33%. the disease is highly contagious. i think that the best scenario is that countries start producing a vaccine locally. the cultures exist so it shouldn't take long. however, after smallpox, what? wallyK ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 06:24:04 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: in this moment magsie, what did joni sing when she played the piano? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 05:31:42 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: What ever happened to Toronto? Like many other JMDLers, I often get up during the night to pee a fecking anaconda. I was looking forward to tonight's little wake-up call from nature because I thought I'd finally be able to read some up-to-the-minute, close-encounters-of-the-Joni-kind stories from our Toronto representatives. But no . . . Oddly, there have been just a few posts here about the Toronto thing -- from Jimmy and Coyote Rick a couple of days ago, then Jody, and most recently, Mags. Plus a post last night from Kakki suggesting that we all might hear some amazing stories soon. (It didn't happen.) Makes me wonder about the incredible silence from some of the people who are there in Toronto with Joni, but still aren't telling us anything about what's going on. People like Ashara. And Sal. Polifka. And what about Epstein and the Ruby Slippers? Hmmmm . . . My guess is that some of our JMDLers have horribly embarrassed themselves in front of Joni, and they're just too ashamed to tell the rest of us exactly what's going on. Who knows what this crazy group may have done to warrant such strange silence about this special event? Between you and me, I wouldn't put it past any one of them to slap an inebriated arm around poor Kilauren and ask the nearest photographer to, "Get one of me and 'Little Green' here." They say that no news is good news, but in this case I just don't know. --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 06:25:50 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Joni and Alanis question njc can you post those lyrics, nuriel? - -----Mensaje original----- De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de Nuriel Tobias Enviado el: Domingo, 21 de Octubre de 2001 05:42 a.m. Para: joni@smoe.org Asunto: Joni and Alanis question i didn't like Alanis till i heard "No Pressure Over Cappucino" and "Joining You" (From the unplugged show)and now I wonder who else is writing lyrics about young folks with such an amazing insight and so painfuly naked these days but Alanis. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 06:29:58 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Teena Marie (njc) no idea who teena marie is! but maybe this will help: http://www.teenamarie.com/ wallyK ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 06:38:03 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: What ever happened to Toronto? njc OH BOB!!! this cracked me up!!!!!!!! here i am, the sempiternal insomniac, trying not to bother the neighbors, and all of a sudden i shriek [YES, SHRIEK -- i am slowly relearning the forgotten art of the timely shriek] when i read your post. thank you, baby. go to bed now! wallyK >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I wouldn't put it past any one of them to slap an inebriated arm around poor Kilauren and ask the nearest photographer to, "Get one of me and 'Little Green' here." --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 06:44:21 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: heed my plea njc please Please PLEASE!!!!!! stop using that annoying word ''feck''. it is SO VERY distressing and so very ''it was funny for a couple of hours during last jonifest''. repeat after me now: fuck fuck fuck. you see? it is so refreshing and comme il faut. please ... wallyK ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 13:05:59 +0100 From: "Marian" Subject: Re: njc - smallpox fears "Wally Kairuz" wrote: > i was talking about this with a bunch of immunologists today. a few people > and organizations have received ''anthrax envelopes'' in buenos aires and in > cordoba [central argentina], so biowar is a local concern too. > smallpox vaccination was stopped in argentina in 1974. a new vaccine is > being developed locally. apparently, people who were vaccinated before > the 70's [my case] are still immune. the mortality rate for smallpox cases > is 33%. the disease is highly contagious. > i think that the best scenario is that countries start producing a vaccine > locally. the cultures exist so it shouldn't take long. however, after > smallpox, what? > wallyK I guess whether or not there will be local production of vaccines will depend on the recommendations of the WHO. I think it's not such an easy or fast thing to do. It will take some time to produce enough vaccine for everyone, if there is a recommendation the WHO to vaccinate the general population again. I think I read somewhere that the USA only has a stockpile of about 40,000 vaccinations and that it would take two years to produce enough for everyone in the USA. Don't quote me on that. Maybe it was 40 million? Anyway, the point is that there is not currently enough vaccine to vaccinate everyone and that it would take some time to produce and distribute it. Also there are risks involved in getting vaccinated. People used to die from it, or have other horrible complications. Anyway, I found this link (see below) that indicates the WHO will be looking at the whole issue and deciding what to do. Marian marian@jmdl.com http://www.jmdl.com/guitar/marian/guitar.htm + + + + + + + + http://www.who.int/inf-pr-2001/en/note2001-15.html Note for the Press N0 15 19 October 2001 WORLD HEALTH ORGANISATION REVIEWS SMALLPOX VACCINATION GUIDANCE WHO Director General Gro Harlem Brundtland today stated that she has asked the WHO Smallpox Advisory Group to review guidelines on smallpox vaccination in light of the current concern that populations might be deliberately infected with the smallpox virus. During the last few days WHO has received several enquiries about the usefulness of mass vaccination to protect people against the malicious use of specific infectious agents, including smallpox. Smallpox was eradicated almost 25 years ago by a WHO-led programme. Since then there have been no naturally occurring cases and one known laboratory accident. National vaccination programmes against smallpox have been stopped in all countries since the early 1980s. Current WHO guidelines, updated in 1998, recognise the effectiveness of existing smallpox vaccines. They also detail the incidence of adverse side effects due to vaccination, particularly among people whose immune systems are compromised. The guidelines recommend that only individuals at risk of exposure (for example, laboratory researchers working on smallpox or human monkeypox) should be vaccinated. Dr Brundtland has asked the Advisory Group to consider whether WHO should modify this guidance to take account of any potential situation in which the smallpox virus is deliberately used to cause infection. Any new WHO guidance will immediately be made available to Ministers of Health of the Member States of WHO. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- For more information please contact Iain Simpson, CDS Communications Officer, Communicable Diseases, WHO, Geneva. Tel. (+41 22) 791 3215; Mobile (+ 41 79) 475 55 34; Email: simpsoni@who.int or Daniela Bagozzi, Office of the Spokesperson, WHO, Geneva. Telephone: (+41 22) 791 4544; Fax: (+41 22) 791 4858; E-mail: bagozzid@who.int. All WHO Press Releases, Fact Sheets and Features as well as other information on this subject can be obtained on Internet on the WHO home page http://www.who.int. + + + + + + + + ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 04:15:20 -0700 From: "J. R. Mills" Subject: Re: What ever happened to Toronto? Bob, You are a treasure...a living god! This is off-the-hook funny. You slay me. Really. Caught me peeking for reports in the middle of the night, too. Thanks for the comic relief... I'm watching this pot till it boils... :-) - -Julius > > My guess is that some of our JMDLers have horribly embarrassed themselves in > front of Joni, and they're just too ashamed to tell the rest of us exactly > what's going on. Who knows what this crazy group may have done to warrant > such strange silence about this special event? Between you and me, I wouldn't > put it past any one of them to slap an inebriated arm around poor Kilauren > and ask the nearest photographer to, "Get one of me and 'Little Green' here." > > They say that no news is good news, but in this case I just don't know. > > --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 08:35:11 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: joni and jazz << Can anybody suggest where I can find articles about Joni and Jazz music? >> Mario, Les has compiled an UNBELIEVABLE article database at JMDL.com Go there, and you can do a search for articles that mention Jaco, jazz, whatever you want to read about. And don't be ashamed about discovering Joni through the jazz link. What matters is that you did! ;~) Bob NP: Gregg Cagno, "Mingus Died In Mexico" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 10:37:54 -0400 From: Mags Subject: Re: in this moment She didnt sing...she just sat down and played....from her soul. It was most moving, truly, deeply so. Mags Wally Kairuz wrote: > magsie, > what did joni sing when she played the piano? - -- And this loving is a drawing close, a tuning in, an opening. Until one perfect moment; but how can it be expressed? A receiving, an enfolding as I cradle you in my arms. Within my heart, within my soul, You are my true love. --Lui Collins - --- _~O / /\_, ___/\ /_ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 10:36:29 EDT From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: in this moment Mags wrote, re Toronto "if only I could take you there...let me try....... imagine......." You could. You did. It worked. I did. Beautiful post. Thank you. Bob S ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 15:00:07 +0200 From: "Mike Pritchard" Subject: RE: Huh? NJC >>From: Steve Dulson Subject: Huh? (NJC) I don't understand this. if I am posting inappropriately, please explain.<< Steve, although personally it does not bother me, perhaps some people object to having to read advertisements for what I assume are two you-related websites every time you post. Interesting that you sent this to the list without them. If this is what people are getting at, then I imagine the same goes for Kate Bennett's posts too? Can the complainer clarify please? mike ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 14:19:59 +0200 From: "Mike Pritchard" Subject: RE: embarrassed fans NJC Hi Jan: >>NP Buddy Greco Does Techno (so you guys will know what you'll be buying 6 months from now) :)<< Been there, done that, copied the DVD and sent it to all my friends for xmas 1998, what's new? mike. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 15:06:00 +0200 From: "Mike Pritchard" Subject: Re: Doctor's pills give you brand new ills (NJC) >>...Electric Shock Treatment...- now there was a barbaric treatment. In a way, we can thank God that medicines came along to replace THAT idea.<< You can thank whoever you like. I think we should thank sciencists. mike ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 15:18:21 +0200 From: "Mike Pritchard" Subject: RE. Swearing NJC Catherine said: >>My Mexican brother-in-law says something that sounds pretty much like that - I do hear the "puta madre" part, but I'm not sure what the first word is - sounds like "chinga" - the whole thing sounds to me like "chinga tu puta madre". I know the "puta madre" bit means "whore mother" - not sure about the "chinga" part. I guessed it was a slangy expression for something unpleasant!<< Not sure it's at all unpleasant, Catherine, but it does equate to 'fuck' in Latin American Spanish. It's not used in Spain except by immigrants. In an earlier post I said Hemingway's favourite Spanish expression was: >>'I spit in the milk of your whore of a grandmother<< That should be 'shit' and not 'spit'. Damn that spellchecker. ;-) Wally said the Argentineans (Argentines?) use >>''go to the cock'' [''andate al carajo''].<< Here in Spain we sip strong black coffee with a shot of rum or other liquors (my favourite is with anis) which are called 'carajillos'. Does that make us little cocksippers? Cheers mike NP 'Cancisn Mixteca' Cooder/Harry Dean Stanton. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 11:05:38 EDT From: Relayer211@aol.com Subject: Joni does NOT like Alanis I remember years ago Alanis was crying because Joni made a stinging comment about her music. Though I don't think Joni wanted to especially single Alanis out.Joni does not admire those young women who have a tenth of her talent. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 11:25:45 EDT From: TimandMaryPowers@aol.com Subject: Who does Joni like? NJC I'm curious I hear so much about how Joni does not like this or that (or any) young musician, especially young female musicians, perhaps because she's tired of being lumped in with other women in music. so which young musicians does she like? i'd really like to know. if she doesn't like any, then her attitude seems an awful lot like jealousy and sour grapes to me. even if you accept that there's no talent anymore in rock/pop (a dubious statement) what about world music, celtic, jazz, classical, etc. i simply don't believe that joni was the last talented female musician on planet earth. i'm just saying this because i hear so much about "joni doesn't like so and so". this brings me to a pet peeve i have about older musicians who complain a lot about how music has gone way downhill. paul simon is another one. why don't they get off their butts and do something about it? they have the wealth to found their own indie radio station and promote the talented ones. there are a number of talented people on this list, as i understand, and many more out there. if they don't have time to run the station, hire like-minded, talented people to do so. they have the clout and i would imagine the money as well, especially if they joined together. mary ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 12:20:50 -0400 From: Mags Subject: she lays her hands down she lays her hands down upon keys long forgotten chords come to life oh she comes to life, to my life and yours she brings me back to that life i see my self in a tiny room in the far corners of a church in st catharines listen wait for the phone to ring hear the desperate lonely voices call out to me lean on me for comfort listen i have the local fm radio station on i hear the voice of an angel singing down to you down to me i am totally captivated by her and when the song is done i call terry williams and ask who is she after that i hang up the phone overwhelmed and again she comes to me there in that tiny space into all the spaces of emptiness her voice fills me i am no longer alone ever again later that year i become pregnant a jezebel living in isolation she comes to me again that voice comes to me in shades of little green reminding me once again she's sad she's sorry she's not she's not ashamed little green happy to the end on the stage in front of me in the distance i see visions long fingers she lays her hands down upon the keys when did you hear her first when did her voice touch your heart and soothe the loneliness inside of you what pain did she take away from you she does not sing this time instead the notes soar up into the air into the spaces once again filling lonely spaces inside each and every one of us we cry together we are touched by her full of grace - -- And this loving is a drawing close, a tuning in, an opening. Until one perfect moment; but how can it be expressed? A receiving, an enfolding as I cradle you in my arms. Within my heart, within my soul, You are my true love. --Lui Collins - --- _~O / /\_, ___/\ /_ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 18:51:01 +0200 From: "Mike Pritchard" Subject: RE: where I'm coming from NJC (longish) Kakki: Thanks for your latest mail. As you say, there seem to be problems of communication between us. I think I have gone well out of my way to make it clear that my remarks are not personal in any way, but it seems not to have worked. Your latest reply mentions a number of points to which I discuss here, and for the last time. I don't think we will agree on many things but I want to reply to your comments before I close our communication. It is not getting us anywhere and I'm sure people must be tiring of it too. 1. Kakki said: >> Others have privately noted to me that they have interpreted your posts just exactly as I have.<< I too have people who comment on and off-list in favour of my views but I refuse to use them to back up my case. I will not play this game. 2. Mike said >>I want to hear other people's opinions and if I have to drag this out of people by 'provocative' postings, then I will do so, always without viciousness or insults.<< Kakki responded with: >>Why would you feel you have to "provoke" me or anyone else? I find that a bit condescending<< As I said above, I want to hear other people's opinions. I used 'provocative' in quotes in an ironic sense. 'Provocative' in the sense of to provoke something, in this case an opinion. 'Provoke' in the sense of 'cause something to happen'. To provoke something, not provoke anyone. Sorry if my irony escaped you. I don't find it condescending to use this method of questioning. It is the Socratic method and has a long and noble pedigree. 3. Kakki said: >>A serious charge had been made here that Americans support the IRA and then /// that it couldn't be believed that Irish Americans did not all know about NORAID and that it was a front for the IRA.<< This remark needs to be split into two, where indicated by the slashes a). Yes, a serious charge (I prefer 'strong comment' but never mind) was made, but not by me. Personally, I would have said a small or tiny minority of Americans, but I did agree with Colin (who, in fact, made this 'charge') when he said that the scale of fundraising by NORAID and other groups is way beyond 'passing a hat here and there 30 years ago'. b). I do not accept that the second half of Kakki's remark (the part referring to me) constitutes a 'serious charge', at least against myself. I prefaced my remarks with the comments that they were not directed at Kakki or anyone else, and followed this up by saying: >>I accept that Kakki has no knowledge of this fundraising and believe her statements of innocence and ignorance. What surprises me is that NORAID is unknown to people of Irish descent, like Kakki, and others. It is widely known in Britain and is hardly a secret in many places in the USA. I am genuinely surprised to hear Kakki's reaction. No more than that.<< Please note my use of 'surprise' and 'genuinely surprised'. This is not a cynical way of saying anyone (and Kakki in particular) is lying. In fact I say explicitly that I believe her. I simply said that it was a surprise, something unexpected. No more than that. 4. Kakki said: >>I attempted to respond to that (the charges of American funding of IRA terrorism) in order to broaden understanding or debunk misunderstandings. Do you think that responding to a serious charge is to be met with playing "devil's advocate" or "provocation" which to some people can seem to be like "baiting."<< I hope you are not implying that I am under any obligation to reply to a 'serious charge' made by another person.Nevertheless, what Colin, myself, and Rob Etteridge said about NORAID collecting money for the IRA is true. I feel no obligation to defend myself of this charge but I too am prepared to attempt 'to broaden understanding or debunk misunderstanding' in your words. I'm sorry if the way I do this appears to you like baiting. It is not intended to bait you and I'm sorry that you feel baited. 5. Kakki said: >>I will try to avoid discussions in the future where my voice really does not want to be heard, except perhaps to play around with me.<< I DO want to hear your voice and I DO NOT play around with you. You and others have explicitly asked for information on these matters and Mack, Mary Powers, Philip, Catherine, Rob and others have attempted to provide it, as have Colin and myself. Again, I can't understand why this is received as criticism, especially as personal criticism of you. You asked me to say where I was coming from. I told you as explicitly as I possibly could. As a 'reward' I get accused of being on a 'head trip', after you agreed not to analyse my thoughts any further. 6. Kakki said: >>If you go back and read your posts, many of your comments have been that you can't believe me that Irish Americans would not know about NORAID or that it supports the IRA.<< If YOU go back and read MY posts you will see the following: >> I am not suggesting that the U.S. government supports the IRA, and I don't believe the blanket statement that 'Americans (sic) support the IRA' and would never say this myself<< >> I simply expressed surprise that these facts (that NORAID channels money to the IRA for weapons) are unknown to many, and it's especially surprising, to me, that if we throw an Irish ethnic background into the equation.<< >> I am absolutely sure that the majority of these (Irish American) people DO give (to NORAID)for this reason (thinking that they were just trying to help poor children).<< 7. Kakki said that: >>Many people, unfortunately are just not savvy or educated enough to suspect it (NORAID money) may be really going to the IRA and that they are being duped.<< I said that I found it a little harder to believe that the Irish Americans were 'not savvy', or 'not educated enough' to have heard of NORAID. This is an insulting and stereotypical view of the Irish, as is your use of 'naive' or 'soft-hearted' in other places. This does not mean that every Irish American must have heard of it, only that there are many Irish Americans who have heard about NORAID and understand its real motives, as well as the people who genuinely give for charitable reasons. There must be US intelligence material on NORAID somewhere. Can anyone find it? 8. >>I'm not all hurt, like some suggest.<< I hope you are not suggesting that I have hurt you or tried to. Either way I'm glad you are not hurt. >> There are much more important matters going on in the world and my life at the moment to get bent over this stuff.<< Good. Good luck with them. mike ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 12:40:57 -0500 From: Kate Subject: Pamela Wallin's latest book Hi all, I am very much enjoying the reports of Joni receiving her star on the Canadian Walk of Fame and her recent performance that some of you lucky folk attended. I hope this will not be redundant, that there are some of you who have not seen or heard of EVERY appearance Joni has ever made. I work in a newspaper newsroom in St. Albert, Alberta. Publishers send books to be reviewed, so when Pamela Wallin's most recent one came in I naturally checked it out immediately, as Pamela, a TV journalist and broadcaster, well known across Canada, also hails from Saskatchewan, from a little town very near my own hometown. I have never met her, but I still feel a pride in her accomplishments and am happy to see that she never fails to acknowledge her roots in the province we both call home. In the province of Saskatchewan, there are many tiny farming communities spread out across the southern and central areas of the province, and in the centre of each --say-- 50-mile radius, is a hub, a larger town that the denizens of the smaller ones travel to regularly because there are more services there, more shopping, etc. I come from Margo, a town with about 150 people now, mostly seniors, and with no school anymore, but it has a Co-op store and a Post Office, a bar, a little cafe (my sister runs it two days a week), a service station, a seniors' centre, and sadly, no more grain elevator. It is a dying village. My sister, grandmother, uncles, cousins, nieces still live there, and I wish I could, too. It's home. Pamela comes from Wadena, the town at the hub, which is a 20-minute drive from Margo. To drive there is a regular occurence and of course everybody knows everybody or SOMEbody in their family or has at least HEARD their family name! It's a small world. So anyway, I grabbed the book and went straight to the index to see if Joni is there. Of course she is -- several times. Pamela has interviewed people from all over the world, and any celebrity who tours Canada is almost certain to make him or herself available to be interviewed by Pamela. This book, "Speaking of Success -- Collected Wisdom, Insights and Reflections," is a collection of things, said by people she interviewed, that struck Pamela as meaningful in some way. So here I offer you the Joni tidbits. p.26: "Many of my generation, and the twenty- and thirty-somethings too, have tried to re-create -- or perhaps create for the first time -- that sense of belonging. The workplace and our circle of friends can often substitute for old-fashioned ideas of family and community that were missing or that we have often reluctantly left behind. Singer, songwriter, poet and painter Joni Mitchell, an only child, said this: 'My sense of family is that I have chosen it along the way. I have many brothers - blood brothers but not genetic brothers. Family is the heart.' " p.100: "Joni Mitchell is considered the single most influential woman in pop music -- a fine musician and a poetic lyricist with a velvety voice deepened by time and smoke. When I talked with the living legend -- poolside in Los Angeles -- she gave credit to one potent mentor: 'I had an extraordinary teacher -- a maker of writers and a maker of athletes and a stirrer up of spirit. He knew how to make you wild and put the lid on you. He told me to "write in my own blood." He told me this at the age of eleven.' And so she did. She opened up her mind to see what was there. 'What things are you going to write about?' she asked. 'Things that are on your mind or on your heart.' Physical surroundings can also stir the soul and expand horizons. Mitchell, the songstress of Saskatchewan, believes small towns and miles of prairie ignited her curiosity about the world: 'Every morning the train would blow its whistle as it entered the bend before the town of Maidstone ... We lived out on the highway. Traffic then was pretty sparse, but the train came every day, and there were buses going by and the occasional car. But the coming and going of things -- to sit next to that hard ocean, so to speak, and see things coming and going -- inflamed my curiosity as a child. "Where are they going?" And so I used to hear the whistle blow at the curve and run to the window, see that puff of smoke, and I'd wave at the conductor.' " p.135: "Joni Mitchell discovered she had polio at the age of nine; this was, unfortunately, just before the Salk vaccine was discovered. Soon she was paralyzed and was placed in what she described as a 'terrifying' hospital for victims of the crippling disease. She still shudders as she recalls the sound of the pumping of the iron lungs. Joni was told she might never walk again. Although she did survive it all, she gave up running and playing sports and took up dance. 'I celebrated my legs,' she said, 'but I turned to grace instead of speed.' The experience was powerful - 'Every time you rise up from some near-death encounter, you come back stronger and hopefully more full of life. It either makes you or breaks you.' " p.178: "In order not to offend, we must be careful about our choice of words, but it's also true that political correctness has silenced many, making people afraid to say or do what they mean. Joni Mitchell was an exception. She sat chain-smoking throughout our interview, and when I asked her if she wanted to offer the viewers a disclaimer, she turned to the camera and said 'For all children watching this, don't ever do it. For all adults, mind your own business.' Then she smiled, having made her point." p.213: Joni: "I think about what kind of old lady I will be. I'm going to go lame eventually. I've got a collection of canes ready and I'm going to poke people with them." That's all folks! I am looking forward to getting Karen O'Brien's biography of Joni into my hot little hands one day -- something nice to look forward to. Yesterday I emptied the last glass of water -- I have refilled four each day, one for each jet crash, in memory of those who died and those who will grieve for and remember them -- it is a ritual I have stolen from the Greek Orthodox church and adapted according to my own needs. When someone dies, they put out a glass of water each day for 40 days, for the spirit of the deceased to come and drink from before they leave the earthly plane. Yesterday I emptied the last one for the last time and lit a pure beeswax candle made by a dear friend. It will burn constantly -- when I'm home -- until it is gone. Kate du Nord ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 18:43:23 +0100 From: colin Subject: Lama's mistakeNJC I subscribed again to reply to this piece of nonsense. I have not been on meds in the whole time I was on the list. Over 4 years. I don't think you are qualified to assess my health at all. I have never started a campaign such as the one you started against me last year. No matter what my frame of mind. Please be don't patronize me and please don not offer opinions about me cos you don't know me. thank you. back to off list status. - -- bw colin DAK,BRO GC, 950i, 940,860,864,890, 260,Silver 830,860, 580 and 270, Passap 6000, Duo80. colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 10:39:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Mags N Brei Subject: RE: What ever happened to Toronto? njc Sorry, Joni swore us to secrecy OFW, get your butts up here next time :-)))) luv, the lovey doves np: Sandy Denny live BBC Sessions (thank you Uncle John and Claud) - --- Wally Kairuz wrote: > OH BOB!!! this cracked me up!!!!!!!! here i am, the sempiternal > insomniac, > trying not to bother the neighbors, and all of a sudden i shriek > [YES, > SHRIEK -- i am slowly relearning the forgotten art of the timely > shriek] > when i read your post. thank you, baby. go to bed now! > > wallyK > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I wouldn't > put it past any one of them to slap an inebriated arm around poor > Kilauren > and ask the nearest photographer to, "Get one of me and 'Little > Green' > here." > > --Bob ===== I've got you to see me through, looking out for what I do Spreading sunshine from the skies, placing rainbows in my eyes Got you watching out for me, making sense of what I see When my world is wearing blue, I've got you to see me through . - ---by Eleanor McEvoy on her album Yola (2001) . Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 13:44:09 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: she lays her hands down Thanks Mags for your beautiful poem and the reports too. I'm so happy that you finally got to see Joni. much love, Rose in NJ rosemjoy@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 14:33:26 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Pamela Wallin's latest book Kate, Thanks so much for the transcriptions, I appreciate the effort and enjoyed the excerpts very much. Especially the part about Joni & her canes! I would pay good money to have Joni poke at me with an assortment of canes! Makes being "caned" sound like not such a bad thing :~D Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 14:26:45 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: Re: Teena Marie njc 'If not for Laura > Nyro, the music of Rickie Lee Jones, Joni Mitchell and Teena Marie might > have been very different.' " > > And I ask for information about Teena Marie. I am not familiar with this > individual. Thank you. > > Tim Spong > Dover, Del., U.S.A. I remember a Teena Marie from the 70's who had a hit record with "Lover Girl". That is the first and last I heard of her. Mack ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 12:29:10 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Fw: joni question I'm forwarding this for my friend Melanie. I know people have discussed Joni's quirky time signatures. Any speculations about Turbulent Indigo? Mark E. forwarded question: OK, I'm not a musical dolt or anything, but Joni has bested me for several years now and I'm not too proud too admit it. Has the joni list ever talked about the time signature(s) in the song Turbulent Indigo? What the heck is it? It shifts, or I'm imagining things. It seems like it floats between 4/4, sometimes 2/4, sometimes 3/4.... is it 4/4 with a 5/4 measure or two thrown in there every now and then to throw off our expectations? This has always bothered me, I've always thought one of these days I'm going to sit down and really pay attention and count and write it down, but... that just seems so... anal retentive... and yet... I would like to know.... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ You can observe a lot by watching. -- Yogi Berra ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 14:40:50 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: Re: Huh? NJC rom: Steve Dulson > Subject: Huh? (NJC) > I don't understand this. if I am posting inappropriately, please explain.<< > Steve, although personally it does not bother me, perhaps some people object > to having to read advertisements for what I assume are two you-related > websites every time you post. > > Interesting that you sent this to the list without them. > > If this is what people are getting at, then I imagine the same goes for Kate > Bennett's posts too? Can the complainer clarify please? > > mike > \ If I remember correctly: Steve asked Huh? to a post from someone (and I am sorry I do not remember his name but he came back later and apologized for posting while under the influence) who had asked if Colin became angry for Steve posting to the list that he wanted Colin and myself and others to trim their posts because he felt we were sending too much back to the list. As far as the extras on Steve's posts and Kate posts, I have never noticed them and they don't bother me one bit, nor does people forgetting njc, nor does folks sending information to the list. Mack ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 23:22:27 -0700 From: Richard Stevens Subject: Re: War and ideology (njc) >>> It's curious to me that during the U.S., NATO, European engagement in the >>> recents wars in Bosnia, Macedonia, etc. that nothing was said here by the >>> active resistance pacifists about the killing of innocents there. Just goes to show you the double standards of those who are so afraid of islam they are willing to jump into bed with them R ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 16:15:45 -0700 From: Scott Price Subject: New Joni Paintings in Sunday L.A. Times Magazine I just heard from Kakki who is away from her computer this afternoon but wanted to pass on word to everyone who may be interested and able to obtain a copy of today's (Oct. 21) Los Angeles Times. Two of Joni's recent paintings depicting events of September 11 are reproduced in the Sunday Times' magazine section. Accompanied by an article by Robert Hilburn titled "What Are The Odds of Reviving the Passion?" are a painting by Joni showing the two World Trade Center towers, and another view from out the back window of her home. According to Kakki, the paintings are done in Joni's impressionistic style and are quite dramatic. If your local newsstand carries the Sunday L.A. Times you might want to check it out, otherwise, Kakki will try to get the paintings scanned and will post a link at a later date. Scott ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 20:02:19 EDT From: AsharaJM@aol.com Subject: Re: New Joni Paintings in Sunday L.A. Times Magazine Would someone be willing to pick up an original copy of this up for me............please????????? Hugs, Ashara {getting ready to type up her review of Friday night} :-D ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 18:08:02 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: DCC 24 kt gold Court & Spark Today we were out shopping & I found a 24 kt gold DCC cd of 'Court & Spark' at Circuit City for $20.99. C&S was my very first Joni Mitchell record and is probably still my favorite. So after debating with myself, I finally decided to buy it (I also picked up RLJ's 'It's Like This'). We came home & Travis started preparation of a pot roast in the kitchen. I went to the living room and couldn't resist popping C&S into the player with the intention of listening to one or two songs, just to see how it sounded. I ended up sitting down & listening to the whole cd, absorbing just about every note as it played. I'm not an audiophile but I've always felt that the first pressing of this particular record that I bought on cd did not sound as good as it should have. My memories of first getting acquainted with this record have accorded it a near mythical status among the many records I bought & came to love during my college years. In a lot of ways it was the ultimate discovery for me, more so than 'Sgt Pepper's' or any other record. I had never heard anything like it before. When Edward & I first bought a cd player, somewhere around 1985, I made a vow that 'C&S' would be the first cd I would buy. But somehow, the experience was just never the same as hearing that vinyl record back in '73 or '74. Later I bought the HDCD version. It still didn't do it for me. Today I think I finally was able to relive that 'goose bump experience'. The beauty of this record came so clearly through those speakers today and it made me remember how much I love it from beginning to end. Maybe 'Hejira' has more depth. Maybe 'The Hissing of Summer Lawns' and 'DJRD' are more musically adventurous. Maybe 'Night Ride Home' and 'Turbulent Indigo' are more mature works. But for me, 'Court and Spark' has a perfection and beauty to it that still takes my breath away. I think it was a major mile post in Joni's career. She had definitely shed the 'folk singer' image with this one & was on her way to destinations uncharted & unknown at the time. So JMDL audiophiles! I want to know what your opinions are of the gold DCC 'Court & Spark'. Did I get a good deal? Or would you have put the cd back in the bin & walked away? After listening to it this afternoon, I don't have any regrets but I am interested in the opinions of those who know more about what to listen for than I do. Mark E. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 21:28:23 EDT From: Kammass@aol.com Subject: JONI-in the LA Times Hey if your interested in purchasing the newspaper. I just found out that Barnes and Nobles carries the LA Times and they get Sundays issue on Monday. If you have Barnes and Nobles in your area that is. Kammy ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 21:30:03 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: DCC 24 kt gold Court & Spark << Maybe 'Hejira' has more depth. Maybe 'The Hissing of Summer Lawns' and 'DJRD' are more musically adventurous. Maybe 'Night Ride Home' and 'Turbulent Indigo' are more mature works. But for me, 'Court and Spark' has a perfection and beauty to it that still takes my breath away. >> You're preaching to the choir as far as I'm concerned, Mark...the "sound" of C&S certainly stood out at the time, and even after all these years, still takes my breath away with it's sonic values. I have the el-cheapo CD version, and would happily spring $20.99 for that gold CD. I'll say you got a nice deal. Be sure and comment on that new RLJ too, after you get over that C&S! ;~) An interesting C&S related note: I just got and listened to a 1973 record by a Swedish folksinger named Turid. She does a Swedish language/piano version of I Had A King, and while it's very pretty I noticed a STRONG similarity to the piano line that Joni employs in the title track of C&S. Hmmmmm.... Bob NP: Kevin Gilbert, "Fun" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 18:32:01 -0700 From: Phyliss Ward Subject: Re: New Joni Paintings in Sunday L.A. Times Magazine I'm exhausted after having a very long day selling my art at a show today. I came in to check email and saw Scott's post. I immediately called the closest grocery store to see if they had any newspapers left. They had a couple so I asked the girl on the phone to please hold one for Phyliss, and I'll be there in 10 minutes. I get there and ask for the paper and she (looked to be a teenager) asks me if there is something special in it. I said yes, my artistic idol of sorts has some of her new paintings in it that I wanted to see. She asked who and I told her Joni Mitchell, not expecting any acknowledgement of course but to my surprise she says "really? I'd like to see that too! As I'm leaving she is picking up the other copy to peruse.... Interesting. Maybe it's that pumped in muzak playing Edith and the Kingpin all the time or something... Anyhoo, it took me a little while to find it but the article is only 2 half pages long and doesn't mention Joni at all. It is however about one of this list's favorite topics, the state of pop music and the lack of quality therein. On one side of each of the 2 pages is a skinny reproduction of two of Joni's paintings and the caption says: **** " I laid {my photos} out, two of a kind, and I was just playing around with the images absent-mindedly when I realized that by putting them edge to edge that a repetitive pattern occurred. So I started this series of paintings which I call 'Repetism.' They represent the fact that the world on Sept. 11 turned upside down _Musician Joni Mitchell, explaining her images of the World Trade Center in flames and the comforting view from her bedroom window. **** In the first painting the upper section of the World Trade Center Towers is depicted, one smoking, the other flaming. In the smoke, the somewhat ghostly face of a human can be discerned, as if seeing a face in the clouds. In the flaming section, although less clear, I see a devilish face. very powerful. The bottom half looks like a mirror image of the top. The other painting is very serene, lots of flowers, a blooming tree with a bench under it, and at the bottom a hand holding a book with a red cross symbol and the work "news". This one is also divided in half with a mirror image. Scott Price wrote: > I just heard from Kakki who is away from her computer this afternoon but > wanted to pass on word to everyone who may be interested and able to obtain > a copy of today's (Oct. 21) Los Angeles Times. Two of Joni's recent > paintings depicting events of September 11 are reproduced in the Sunday > Times' magazine section. Accompanied by an article by Robert Hilburn titled > "What Are The Odds of Reviving the Passion?" are a painting by Joni showing > the two World Trade Center towers, and another view from out the back > window of her home. According to Kakki, the paintings are done in Joni's > impressionistic style and are quite dramatic. > > If your local newsstand carries the Sunday L.A. Times you might want to > check it out, otherwise, Kakki will try to get the paintings scanned and > will post a link at a later date. > > Scott - -- Phyliss mailto:phyliss@goldenfigclay.com ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2001 #502 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?