From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2001 #498 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Friday, October 19 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 498 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: embarrassed fans NJC [JRMCo1@aol.com] Re: where I'm coming from NJC ["Kakki" ] Re: where I'm coming from NJC ["Victor Johnson" ] apologies NJC ["Mike Pritchard" ] Subject: Joni in VF ["Kate Bennett" ] conan ["Kate Bennett" ] Ryan Adams - NJC ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Subject: Joni in VF [jan ] Re: where I'm coming from (NJC) [Gertus@aol.com] Re: embarrassed fans NJC ["Dolphie Bush" ] Bette Davis Eyes NJC ["Garret" ] re: My personal setlist (wishlist) for the upcoming orchestral Project. [] Re: Doctor's pills give you brand new ills (SJC) ["Dolphie Bush" ] oops njc ["Dolphie Bush" ] German Joni-fan seeks trading contacts in Europe [Les Irvin ] Picture of Joni at the Walk of Fame [Les Irvin ] Re: oops [JRMCo1@aol.com] Re: embarrassed fans ["Dolphie Bush" ] Shadows & Light in Toronto [James Leahy ] a poem (njc) [Anne Sandstrom ] Re: Doctor's pills give you brand new ills (NJC) [colin ] Re: oops NJC [colin ] Re: Doctor's pills give you brand new ills (NJC) ["Dolphie Bush" ] Re: Ryan Adams (NJC) ["Brenda J. Walker" ] Re: Ryan Adams - NJC ["Brenda J. Walker" ] Re: a poem (njc) ["Kakki" ] Re: Doctor's pills give you brand new ills (NJC) ["Victor Johnson" ] Re: Doctor's pills give you brand new ills (NJC) ["Kakki" ] Re: Doctor's pills give you brand new ills (NJC) ["hell" hello joni fans, > > I'm listening to John Denver right now. which makes me wonder: do you have any musical preferences about which you are *slightly* embarrassed? if you admitted you liked this musician, your friends would laugh? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 13:23:20 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: where I'm coming from NJC Mike, I can't help but sense a head trip from you, perhaps not intentional - maybe just a difference in styles of communication. Others have privately noted to me that they have interpreted your posts just exactly as I have. If you go back and read your posts, many of your comments have been that you can't believe me that Irish Americans would not know about NORAID or that it supports the IRA. I haven't seen that you've really agreed or disagreed with the issues being discussed, just disagreed with my perceptions. Your post today is the first I've seen that actually states where you stand on the IRA/Irish and many other issues. Here is something you said that may shed light on my point: > I want to hear other people's opinions and if I have to >drag this out of people by 'provocative' postings, then I >will do so, always without viciousness or insults. Why would you feel you have to "provoke" me or anyone else? I find that a bit condescending. A serious charge had been made here that Americans support the IRA and that then that it couldn't be believed that Irish Americans did not all know about NORAID and that it was a front for the IRA. I attempted to respond to that in order to broaden understanding or debunk misunderstandings. Do you think that responding to a serious charge is to be met with playing "devil's advocate" or "provocation" which to some people can seem to be like "baiting." Anyway, Mike, I am not going to drone on and on here answering all of your points. I didn't think I'd been critical of your viewpoints - I never really knew exactly your viewpoints until today and I would agree with all of them, now that they have been set out. I tried to give my perspective as an American of Irish background in order to have a hopefully helpful exchange on the subject. I guess I have failed at bringing more understanding to the issue so it is pointless to go on. I will try to avoid discussions in the future where my voice really does not want to be heard, except perhaps to play around with me. I'm not all hurt, like some suggest. There are much more important matters going on in the world and my life at the moment to get bent over this stuff. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 16:55:47 -0400 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Re: where I'm coming from NJC "Look Around" by Stevie Wonder from Where I'm Coming From (c)1971 We are idle strangers Married to our dangers Into space we go to change our ways Flying to our heavens We are all together Into hell we chase the light of day Look around and you'll see Ruins of the human history Look around and you'll find Time is only floating in your mind You will find Searching for time Empty is your mind We are charmed by living Dazzled into giving All the waste we plan to ignore Coldness is the virtue Measured by the untrue Love is used for something but what for? Look around and you'll see Ruins of the human history Look around and you'll find Time is only floating in your mind You will find Searching for time Empty is your mind ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 23:20:39 +0200 From: "Mike Pritchard" Subject: apologies NJC My post on Subject to Interpretation was NJC and should have said so. Nobody's perfect. Sorry. mike ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 14:09:31 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Subject: Joni in VF oh, how i love that photo of joni & emmylou! my 2 greatest inspirations! ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 14:09:25 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: conan Julius said "Oooh, Diana Krall just came on "Late Night with Conan O'Brien." She's doing "I Cried a River for You." Sweet! Gotta Go. Bye." She was really good, also I loved the comedian that came on before her...he had some great lines about the world situation that I thought were both funny & true! ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 14:09:30 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Ryan Adams - NJC Yes, thank you Brenda, I have been hearing about this so loved your review. Also thanks to Paul for this: >>>Richard Gillmann's Top 60 folkdj airplay charts are also always worth a read if you're on the lookout for new rootsy and/or singer songwriter albums. Here are the top three for September: 1: "New Favorite," Alison Krauss And Union Station (65)<<< As I said before, I just can't take this cd out of my player...I just love Alison's beautiful soothing voice... ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 14:34:09 -0700 From: jan Subject: Re: Subject: Joni in VF What's funny in that VF issue is that 'Dictionary For Rock Snobs'. Ouch! - -jan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 17:58:53 EDT From: Gertus@aol.com Subject: Re: where I'm coming from (NJC) Mike wrote:- >>I am against tyranny wherever it is and against whoever is responsible for it. Regardless of whether it is my country, your country, their country or whoever's. I am against the appalling treatment of Irish people historically in the USA and in the UK, including in the Six Counties / Northern Ireland. This does not mean I hate US or UK citizens. I am against the racist behaviour of the Spanish police and some members of the public but I love living here. I could leave but I don't. I refuse to blame the entire population of a country for the acts and policies of its government. There is a large Moslem community here in Catalunya and in many parts of it female circumcision is practiced. I am against this barbaric practice but it doesn't make me hate Moslems in general. I was against the policies of Thatcher and John Major in the 80s and 90s in the UK and left there partly for that reason. I return to visit my many friends and family but don't hate the people there. How could I? Kubrick, I think, stated that the big nations have always acted like gangsters and the little nations like prostitutes. I am against both forms of behaviour but that's the way of the world. Britain in the 80s managed to act like both at the same time; no mean feat. If I agree with anti-american comment this doesn't mean that I am anti-american in general. I believe I am not. If it appears that I adopt an anti-american stand on more occasions than a pro-american stand then that would suggest to me that the matters under discussion found me on one side rather than the other. If the matters had been different I might have made more pro- than anti- statements. If the dollar were not so high and the peseta so low I would spend more time in the US. I found it an admirable place and have never had a cross word with anyone while visiting. I have friends in San Francisco, Athens (yes, Victor, 'your' Athens), Chicago and New York. Some of my family live in Rome, NY state. I would like to visit my friends in Ontario too, but I will have to wait for better times, financially speaking. I hate the fact that the IRA, the UVF, the UFF and all the other paramilitary forces in Ireland are killing civilians and each other. I love to go to Ireland though, and had I not been born in Wales I would prefer to have been born in Ireland. I find the Irish people that I have met the finest, most agreeable people in the world, bar none. I detest the kind of barbaric violence visited on thousands of people in the recent attacks on the USA. I sympathise with all those affected, although I could not say that I understand what you're going through. How could I? I want to provoke debate, not antagonise listers. I want to provide light, not heat. I want to condemn the wrongs, regardless of who commits them. I want to congratulate fine deeds, regardless of who performs them. I want to hear other people's opinions and if I have to drag this out of people by 'provocative' postings, then I will do so, always without viciousness or insults. There are many things (and many people) I disagree with on this list but I hold my tongue more than I release it. This does NOT refer to kakki, mack, don rowe or anyone else who has been critical of my posts. I am thinking of different people altogether, I swear. Most of all I wish to make it clear that we should all, including myself, be careful about judging the particular as if it were general. If I make a stupid remark it does not mean I am stupid, just that one remark was stupid. If I make a brilliant, incisive comment, I may equally have moments of gross stupidity. If I support one act or opinion of an individual or organisation or government it does not mean I support that person or organisation or government in all other aspects. If I condemn one act or opinion of an individual or organisation or government it does not mean I condemn that person or organisation or government in all other aspects.<< Words well spoken, Mike, is all I wanted to say. However................ my attention was drawn to this in a daily paper today:- "IRA "to end weapons deadlock" at secret weekend conference" "The sources all believe that the convention - the supreme body of the IRA - will be asked to endorse proposals to carry out arms decommisioning, following intense pressure from supporters in America since September 11th terrorist attacks" Let's hope some good will come from this. Jacky ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 17:11:05 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: Re: embarrassed fans NJC I was really into Janis in high school and college. You would not believe the looks I got for that. I used to enjoy riding up and down main street blaring her from my van, I had one of those goodtimes vans, to make them listen to her. Thought maybe someone would "get it" Never did work. The majority of them were into Willie Nelson and Waylon Jennings. Hey, I love the Bee Gees. Never embarrassed about that. How could anyone not is where I am coming from? We used to ride in the speech instructors van to speech tournaments. John Denver was a major favorite of that crowd. I loathed him. Could not understand what the attraction was and I didn't care for his image, which at the time was goody goody two shoes. I thought if I had to listen to Rocky Mountain High one more time I would vomit. Now, years later, I can see just what made him so special and when i hear Annie's song or Calypso, it takes me away. I was so stupid then. Mack ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 23:47:36 +0100 From: "Garret" Subject: Bette Davis Eyes NJC Has anyone heard the Larry Klein produced version of Bette Davis Eyes sung by Gwyneth Paltrow from some movie. Is it good? GARRET ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 23:47:43 +0100 From: "Garret" Subject: re: My personal setlist (wishlist) for the upcoming orchestral Project. It's 24 songs isn't it? mmmm.... Cactus Tree Rainy Night HOuse Blue Boy Woodstock(actually, i'm tempted to list all of that album really, besides maybe BYT and circle game.) The Last Time I Saw Richard Barrangrill Let the wind carry me (or else lesson in survival?!?!) Blonde in the Bleachers Judgement of the Moon and Stars Down To You Just Like this Train Court and Spark Hejira Furry Sings the Blues Coyote Shadows and Light Boho Dance Dreamland (oh, imagine that:-) God Must Be A Boogie Man Be Cool Cherokee Louise Moon At The Window Sire of Sorrow Turbulent Indigo wow, 24 all ready! that was far more difficult that i thought it was going to be! GARRET ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 17:28:27 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: Re: Doctor's pills give you brand new ills (SJC) While everything said here has been true, it is also true that drugs can be very beneficial. My entire family suffers from some form of mental illness. I am not the least bit ashamed to say that. As a nurse, it becomes secondhand to discuss this kind of thing and one learns that mental illness is nothing more than that, an illness that is mental. My biologicial mother suffers in the way that she feels she must put baggies on anything that she touches. If the baggie is touched, by her or anyone else, she removes it and puts a new one in its place. All the door handles and kitchen cabinet handles have baggies on them. It is quite funny, in a way, if one was reading this or just watching her. My older sister and myself are both very obsessive compulsive. It manifests itself in different ways for different people. With me it makes me do silly things like counting to myself over and over again and reading the gauges in my car over and over again. And hypochondria. My goodness. I am dying of something different every single day. As far as depression, I suffer from that too but not as badly as some and only seem to have periods where it afflicts me very badly. I take Prozac. It keeps me from counting so much and keeps the depths from getting to me. Sure, all drugs have side effects but Prozac doesn't affect me adversely in that sense. I only take it three days a week, seems to keep me on an even keel, pretty much so. The doctor prescribed it every day but that dosage made me too aggressive, which is not good for someone who is naturally aggressive anyway. It is not addictive and easily excreted from the body. Writing of Lithium. My brother has been diagnosed with schizophrenia. He went completely off of the deep end. Lithium has brought my brother back, the brother I remember from before the illness struck him. I am very thankful for it. Without it, he would be lost to us forever. The important thing to remember about drugs is that some do have very favorable benefits, if taken properly. Mack - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 10:28 PM Subject: Re: Doctor's pills give you brand new ills (SJC) > Dear Colin, > It's so weird that I've been listening to this very song all day today while > working. I haven't pulled out my Turbulent Indigo CD for quite a while. It's > an absolutely fantastic CD. > > A friend's mother (who also became my friend) was prescribed Lithium back in > the 70's for her depression. I came over one day to visit her and was blown > away by the change in her personality. She was acting like she was living in > slow motion. I have suffered from depression all of my life, but after seeing > her and another ex-schoolmate on Thorazine, I swore that I would never take > any pills. Even back then, I felt that they would be extremely bad for me > personally. After reading your post, I now know that I was not wrong, at > least for myself. > > It's hard to fight depression cold turkey, but I've done it for many years. > One of the tricks I have recently learned is to drink a cup of coffee, > especially after a bad night. For some reason, the chemicals in the brain go > wacky and I have found that coffee helps my brain get back into gear. > > I've never admitted that I suffer from depression. I've seen how people are > treated in the workplace when they admit a vulnerability such as depression > or any type of dependency. They are treated like damaged goods and it is done > in such a sneaky way, it's hard to prove. Now that I am no longer in the > workplace, I can finally come to honest terms with what I have hidden for > years. You guys are the first people I've admitted this to because you are my > Jonilista family! > > Sherelle-NP Dave Koz-The Dance (Be Be Winans singing) > > In a message dated 10/17/2001 10:30:21 AM Pacific Daylight Time, les@jmdl.com > writes: > > > > Getting off was hell. other drugs for my Bipolar have caused me liver > > trouble(cirrhosis) and heart probelms. Which is why I refuse to take > > meds now. Many drugs, especially the psych drugs, cause bad side > > effects-some casue brain damage and the damage can be permanent. I don't > > think people fulyy understand the eeffect of these drugs nor the > > suffering they cause to the person taking them. If they did, they might > > not clamour for people with mental health probs to take them. eevn the > > modern antui depressants like Prozac have serious side effects in some > > people. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 00:01:05 +0100 From: "Garret" Subject: new Fleetwood Mac album NJC I just found out that FM are recording a new album, *with* Buckingham and NIcks!!! although most likely without Christine. but still...oh my god! how ahs this escaped my attentin until now. I copied the following from cdnow where i was "window shopping" (the temptation to make some awful joke about MS windows there! but i *shall* refrain:-) ________________________________________________________ "Mick Fleetwood Fleetwood Mac is about halfway through recording its latest album, which is due next year. The release will feature all the regular crew members except Christine McVie. Mick Fleetwood tells allstar that he heard from McVie earlier this week, though, and she said she would like to record with the group, but not tour. As a result, Fleetwood says he's a bit perplexed. "If she writes and records with us, and does not tour," he explains, "then it's hard to play those songs in concert. Lindsay [Buckingham] and Stevie [Nicks] have already done most of their work." Fleetwood is not sure if he will take her up on her offer at this time. Fleetwood Mac will probably tour the states late next summer or early fall. Fleetwood favors indoor arenas rather than outdoor amphitheaters. "We can get better sound and lights indoors," he says. - -- Bob Grossweiner and Jane Cohen" ______________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 17:32:50 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: oops njc the last one was njc. sorry. mack ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 16:40:50 -0600 From: Les Irvin Subject: German Joni-fan seeks trading contacts in Europe >From: "Ralf Bei der Kellen" >Subject: German Joni-fan seeks trading contacts in Europe >Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 23:32:10 +0200 > >Hi there, > >I am a (male) German fan of Joni Mitchell & would like to set up some >trading-contacts with other Joni-fans, especially from Europe. I get access >to the Joni-site, so I thought I'd try it this way. Thanks very much, every >info is appreciated. > >ralf. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 18:38:42 -0400 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: RE: embarrassed fans NJC I think there are two possible threads here. The music you liked that your teen peers didn't, and the music you liked that your grown-up peers say you shouldn't have! As for the former, I worshipped Joni when all my peers professed to HATE her, and I loved the Incredible String Band, who were totally unknown to everyone but me and my cat. Plus an assortment of other English folkie types, like Fairport, Steeleye Span, Pentangle, Ralph Mctell...I had a million records in my room, which made me look cool to my peers until they saw the titles. Then I looked weird. As for the former, I liked Seals & Crofts (eek. how syrupy). And Hall & Oates (eek! how shallow). - ----------------------------------- Deb Messling =^..^= - ----------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 16:42:16 -0600 From: Les Irvin Subject: Picture of Joni at the Walk of Fame Hurry while it lasts.... http://www.canoe.ca/JamIncludes/photo_of_day.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 18:48:05 EDT From: JRMCo1@aol.com Subject: Re: oops This brings up a question I've been pondering. I'd appreciate advice from the Joni-only contingent here: If I forget to tag something "njc" does it exacerbate the problem to apologize to the Joni-onlies by sending another post, sans the njc tag, with my apologies, since that only sends more njc mail? Or do the Joni-onlies appreciate the apology, since it is a reminder that it was just an isolated transgression and is not likely to be repeated by that person, and they thus realize that it's not necessary to send a nasty gram reminder to the list at large? I'm just wondering. - -Julius ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 17:47:22 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: Re: embarrassed fans Deb, nice post. I am listening to Hall and Oates right this very minute. Love em. Belong to their posting site too though it is not as evolved as Joni's. Contrary to what some may believe, they are anything but shallow. Except maybe for that 80's hit stuff. Mack - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Deb Messling" To: "Joni" Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 5:38 PM Subject: RE: embarrassed fans NJC > I think there are two possible threads here. The music you liked that your > teen peers didn't, and the music you liked that your grown-up peers say you > shouldn't have! > > As for the former, I worshipped Joni when all my peers professed to HATE > her, and I loved the Incredible String Band, who were totally unknown to > everyone but me and my cat. Plus an assortment of other English folkie > types, like Fairport, Steeleye Span, Pentangle, Ralph Mctell...I had a > million records in my room, which made me look cool to my peers until they > saw the titles. Then I looked weird. > > As for the former, I liked Seals & Crofts (eek. how syrupy). And Hall & > Oates (eek! how shallow). > > > ----------------------------------- > Deb Messling =^..^= > ----------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 19:23:56 -0500 From: James Leahy Subject: Shadows & Light in Toronto Shadows and Light was released in Canada this week. I bought it at the downtown Indigo store here in Toronto. $34.95 (Cdn.) It is an official UK/Canada release. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 19:39:23 -0400 From: Anne Sandstrom Subject: a poem (njc) I wrote this today and I felt like sharing it with you: Steel-skinned wings turned bird of prey As dark hearts steered the birds astray Plunged like daggers in the glass That shattered in the raptors' wrath A hot tornado wind spun round And flung the towers to the ground A storm of blind black snow rose up As souls were sifted into dust Thousands flung to angel flight Thousands more fled from the site It rained the hot rain of Pompeii Til every color turned to grey People pouring out their veins For wounded ones that never came "Have you seen my loved one's face Somewhere in this poisoned place?" But from the ruins of the crime Weary wings began to climb Sparrows, falcons, jays and wrens Were gliding overhead again So hand me down some feathered wings That I might learn to soar and sing That I might ride the sacred sky And while the wicked walk, I fly lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 00:51:55 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: Doctor's pills give you brand new ills (NJC) > The > important thing to remember about drugs is that some do have very favorable > benefits, if taken properly. Lithium, even taken properly, (tho it isn;t the sort of drug one would abuse anyway) is a dangerous drug and has nasty side effects-like death. As do many other drugs. Yes some people benfit, others do not. The side effects are NOT genrally publiscised and deaths form them are attributed to something else-like liver failure, kidney failure, heart failure etc when it wasas the drug that caused it. As for OC-it is a terrible thing to suffer from-I know I was cumpulsive washer and checker. Took me ages to leave the house because I'd have to keep going back to check I'd turned taps and gas and electric off and that I had locked the door. My washing was particularly centred on my hair. Solved htat by shaving it off and I have kept it that way for years. the other OC has also stopped. No pill did this-but facing what i had to face with the right help to do so. I think the pushing of pills onto people does them a great dis service.. yes, they perhaps help in the short term but only by doing the inner work will these things go away. that takes time and courage and people who know what they are about when helping people. the trouble with pills is they change the way a person feels, and all they really do is shove the feelings further down. this doesn't resolve anything. It is not different to sometone deciding to self medicate-i.e drink or illegal drugs. Another thing to ebar in mind ais that there is absolutely no proof whaysoever that mental illness is biological in nature. No chemicals have been pinpointed, no genes found. yet theis theory, which is all it is, has been genrally accpeted on hearsay by scientists who really ought to know better. The people who really benefit are the drug companies, their shareholders and the dr who is gauranteed ehri patient returns and returns for more 'help'. > > > Mack > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 10:28 PM > Subject: Re: Doctor's pills give you brand new ills (SJC) > > > Dear Colin, > > It's so weird that I've been listening to this very song all day today > while > > working. I haven't pulled out my Turbulent Indigo CD for quite a while. > It's > > an absolutely fantastic CD. > > > > A friend's mother (who also became my friend) was prescribed Lithium back > in > > the 70's for her depression. I came over one day to visit her and was > blown > > away by the change in her personality. She was acting like she was living > in > > slow motion. I have suffered from depression all of my life, but after > seeing > > her and another ex-schoolmate on Thorazine, I swore that I would never > take > > any pills. Even back then, I felt that they would be extremely bad for me > > personally. After reading your post, I now know that I was not wrong, at > > least for myself. > > > > It's hard to fight depression cold turkey, but I've done it for many > years. > > One of the tricks I have recently learned is to drink a cup of coffee, > > especially after a bad night. For some reason, the chemicals in the brain > go > > wacky and I have found that coffee helps my brain get back into gear. > > > > I've never admitted that I suffer from depression. I've seen how people > are > > treated in the workplace when they admit a vulnerability such as > depression > > or any type of dependency. They are treated like damaged goods and it is > done > > in such a sneaky way, it's hard to prove. Now that I am no longer in the > > workplace, I can finally come to honest terms with what I have hidden for > > years. You guys are the first people I've admitted this to because you are > my > > Jonilista family! > > > > Sherelle-NP Dave Koz-The Dance (Be Be Winans singing) > > > > In a message dated 10/17/2001 10:30:21 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > les@jmdl.com > > writes: > > > > > > > Getting off was hell. other drugs for my Bipolar have caused me liver > > > trouble(cirrhosis) and heart probelms. Which is why I refuse to take > > > meds now. Many drugs, especially the psych drugs, cause bad side > > > effects-some casue brain damage and the damage can be permanent. I don't > > > think people fulyy understand the eeffect of these drugs nor the > > > suffering they cause to the person taking them. If they did, they might > > > not clamour for people with mental health probs to take them. eevn the > > > modern antui depressants like Prozac have serious side effects in some > > > people. - -- bw colin DAK,BRO GC, 950i, 940,860,864,890, 260,Silver 830,860, 580 and 270, Passap 6000, Duo80. colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 00:53:03 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: embarrassed fans NJC believe it or not, my parents thouight Carly was highly immoral and crude rude and bad. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 00:55:38 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: oops NJC I find the use of other tags like SJC, VLJC etc confusing and unnecessary as the on ly way the list is split is with the NJC tag. The other tags can be misread. like I didn't retag a post SJC with NJC cos I didn't immediately notice the S was not an N. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 19:04:33 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: Re: Doctor's pills give you brand new ills (NJC) > Lithium, even taken properly, (tho it isn;t the sort of drug one would abuse > anyway) is a dangerous drug and has nasty side effects-like death. As do many > other drugs. > Yes some people benfit, others do not. The side effects are NOT genrally > publiscised and deaths form them are attributed to something else-like liver > failure, kidney failure, heart failure etc when it wasas the drug that caused > it. To categorize drugs this way is not only not true but a disservice to everyone. If not for drugs, most of us on this list would not be here today. We would have died much earlier. The ascending life expectancy of all humans is a result of medicine and yes, drugs. Writing of liver, heart, and kidney failure. If it were not for drugs individuals with these problems would not have the life expectancy they now have. As far as Lithium goes, yes, if not monitored closely it is very dangerous. All drugs have side effects but to generalize and infer that no one should take drugs is not prudent, or wise. > I think the pushing of pills onto people does them a great dis service.. yes, > they perhaps help in the short term but only by doing the inner work will these > things go away. that takes time and courage and people who know what they are > about when helping people. This is simply not true. Mental illness is caused by abnormalities in the brain and no amount of self determination or self will is going to correct that problem. Many people who need help subscribe to this kind of thinking and languish in a state of utter despair, when they need not. There are drugs to help them. Schizophrenics, for instance, cannot control their behavior. It is as natural as being a homosexual. Drugs can, and do, bring them back into the world. > > the trouble with pills is they change the way a person feels, and all they > really do is shove the feelings further down. this doesn't resolve anything. It > is not different to sometone deciding to self medicate-i.e drink or illegal > drugs. Yes, they do change the way a person feels. That is exactly the point. I could try my hardest, and have and did, to control the demons inside my head. It did not work. Am I weak? Anyone who knows me knows that I am anything but weak. Mental illness is not a feeling or a choice that a person has. That is ludicrous. It is a physical abnormality and the above kind of thinking is one of the reasons that people with mental illness fear bringing it out into the public, for fear that people will think they are weak, or not worthy, or just plain unable to cope with the world. That is one reason that people turn to illicit drugs in the first place. > > Another thing to ebar in mind ais that there is absolutely no proof whaysoever > that mental illness is biological in nature. No chemicals have been pinpointed, > no genes found. yet theis theory, which is all it is, has been genrally accpeted > on hearsay by scientists who really ought to know better. The people who really > benefit are the drug companies, their shareholders and the dr who is gauranteed > ehri patient returns and returns for more 'help'. > > As far as mental illness being genetic. My grandfather, that I never met, died in an insane asylum. I was not raised by my biological mother and did not live with these people yet suffer from the same things that they do. The family that I was raised with show none of these symptoms. This is no different than the color of ones hair or their personality traits, which are most certainly genetic. To infer that it is all a big conspiracy is somewhat paranoid and untrue even though I agree the drug companies do push drugs and are not interested in the well being of the patient themselves. But not everyone, and most surely not every physician or health care professional is pushing drugs with ulterior motives. Without medicine and drugs, we would be as bad off as those who lived before us. Mack ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 20:11:03 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: a poem (njc) In a message dated 10/19/01 7:40:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, asandstrom@macromedia.com writes: > I wrote this today and I felt like sharing it with you: > > Thank you Annie, this was sad but eloquently written. You certainly do have the poet in you (sniff, sniff) ~rose in NJ rosemjoy@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 20:12:56 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: oops In a message dated 10/19/01 10:48:55 PM !!!First Boot!!!, JRMCo1@aol.com writes: > If I forget to tag something "njc" does it exacerbate the problem to > apologize to the Joni-onlies by sending another post, sans the njc tag, > with my apologies, since that only sends more njc mail? Or do the > Joni-onlies appreciate the apology, since it is a reminder that it was just > an isolated transgression and is not likely to be repeated by that person, > and they thus realize that it's not necessary to send a nasty gram reminder > to the list at large? > IMHO, the apology will short-circuit anyone who might be inclined to send you a post reminding you to use the NJC tag in the future, and most likely is appreciated. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 17:25:30 -0700 From: "Brenda J. Walker" Subject: Re: Diana Krall - NJC On 19 Oct 2001, at 14:09, Kate Bennett wrote: > Julius said "Oooh, Diana Krall just came on "Late Night with Conan O'Brien." > She's doing "I Cried a River for You." Sweet! Gotta Go. Bye." > > She was really good, also I loved the comedian that came on before her... Here's what may prove to be an unpopular opinion.... I think Diana is a talented artist. "All for You" was fantastic and she is certainly head and shoulders above some of her contemporaries like that soulless Jane Monheit (yet another potentially unpopular suggestion : ) . However, I must confess to complete disappointment with her new record. I find it dull dull dull. Talents like Christian McBride and Peter Erskine are wasted under Tommy Lipuma's "too much smooth jazz" heavy hand. And the arrangements are bordering on old elevator music. Where is Johnny Mandel when you need him?! I happened upon a Tony Bennett recording of "Dancing in the Dark" and listened to it next to hers and it became glaringly obvious - she deserves a better playground than this blatant and bland attempt at crossover. Brenda n.p.: Ella - "Detour Ahead" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 17:32:10 -0700 From: "Brenda J. Walker" Subject: Re: Ryan Adams (NJC) On 19 Oct 2001, at 12:48, Paul Castle wrote: > And strangely Ryan Adams is all over the UK press > today following his Shedherd's Bush Empire gig: - > > "Adams excels at putting across powerful sentiments > in a nofuss, straight-forward manner' (Guardian p22) > > [Ryan Adams] "gives misery a good name" (Independent p27) > > "Most fans left the venue convinced that they had been > in the presence of greatness." (Mail p53) > > And apparently he's been dating Beth Orton! > Beth Orton! What a sullen pair! I hope the press there gives him a decent chance. Some writers here are gleefully holding him up to Gram Parsons and Neil Young instead of just letting him grow on his own accord. I just hate all that kind of wind up. Brenda n.p.: Charlie Parker - "All the Things You Are" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 17:48:51 -0700 From: "Brenda J. Walker" Subject: Re: Ryan Adams - NJC On 19 Oct 2001, at 10:25, Paul Castle wrote: > > Thanks for the review, Brenda - I had just been thinking > I must check this out on a listening post - earlier this week > I found a website run by US radio DJ Steve Scott, listing > various roots (folk blues and beyond) music charts, and > had noticed that his album 'Gold' (Lost Highway) is > currently topping both the Gavin and CMJ Triple A > charts. see http://www.hootholler.com/charts.html > > Richard Gillmann's Top 60 folkdj airplay charts are also > always worth a read if you're on the lookout for new rootsy > and/or singer songwriter albums. Here are the top three > for September: > > 1: "New Favorite," Alison Krauss And Union Station (65) > 2: "Every Single Day," Lucy Kaplansky (61) > 3: "Time (The Revelator) ," Gillian Welch (52) > No Depression is great as well - http://www.nodepression.net/ Brenda n.p.: Danilo Perez - September in Rio ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 18:11:34 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: a poem (njc) Anne, I don't have the words to adequately convey how brilliant your poem is. I think this should be posted somewhere on the JMDL webpage. I have been wondering how the poets could mark this darkest of events and still include hope and the spirit of survival within the same context. You have woven every element together perfectly. Thank you for sharing this with us, Anne. It is very beautiful. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 21:07:19 -0400 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Re: Doctor's pills give you brand new ills (NJC) Mack wrote: To categorize drugs this way is not only not true but a disservice to everyone. If not for drugs, most of us on this list would not be here today. We would have died much earlier. If it were not for drugs individuals with these problems would not have the life expectancy they now have. Colin wrote: Yes some people benfit, others do not. The side effects are NOT genrally publiscised and deaths form them are attributed to something else-like liver failure, kidney failure, heart failure etc when it wasas the drug that caused it. I think both of you made very valid points and are both right. Yes drugs are very beneficial and have done much to help people who suffer from all kinds of maladies. I've been trying different drugs myself this whole year to help a breathing problem and I'm still not much closer to a solution than I was when I started. I have yet to see what will make a difference but I'm trying a variety of different things. Anyway, it is true many people have had positive experiences with drugs and yet many have had negative experiences as well. Nick Drake suffered from depression in the late sixties/early seventies and it is my opinion that at this time, they did not know how to treat the depression he suffered from, nevertheless, they prescribed him some drugs, and he ended up dying from an overdose. In this case, I think the drugs may have helped somewhat, but then at the same time, they may have resulted in his death, seemed like too easy of a solution, a way not to feel, an escape... If I had to choose, I would rather suffer both the lows and the highs instead of altering myself and feeling neither as potent as they might be. And I have suffered from depression, especially this year...going through major medical problems, being unemployed, moving to a new, different city...but at other times as well, and while I know alot of depression is brought on by a chemical imbalance, and in many cases, drugs are necessary, I think that there is a whole realm of things that change your life and make a difference apart from drugs, and I would much rather depend on those things than depend on a drug. I think the human mind and the human heart are alot more powerful than we give them credit for, and in some cases, are perhaps better left alone. Drugs are dangerous, just like many other things... Victor in Athens NP: Arizona at Atlanta, score 0-0 Victor Johnson http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson "Velveteen rabbits and moonbeams, Come when you lay down your head. While you are sleeping, they kiss you and tell you, That you are the reason the sun lights the sky." Scarlet-V. Johnson ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 18:14:48 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Picture of Joni at the Walk of Fame Thanks Les! What a great photo! (Looks like it may be a little chilly there) I am so excited for all the JMDL'ers who are right now in Joni's company and can't wait for more reports! Kakki > Hurry while it lasts.... > http://www.canoe.ca/JamIncludes/photo_of_day.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 21:10:01 -0400 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Re: a poem (njc) This is simply beautiful, Anne. Thank you very much! Victor Victor Johnson http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson "Velveteen rabbits and moonbeams, Come when you lay down your head. While you are sleeping, they kiss you and tell you, That you are the reason the sun lights the sky." Scarlet-V. Johnson ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 18:33:01 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Doctor's pills give you brand new ills (NJC) Victor, I also am of both minds about drugs for depression, schizophrenia, OCD, etc. I have known people whose lives would not be functional at all without them and have known others whose lives were made much worse by them. I don't know that the researchers have quite figured it all out yet why some respond beneficially and some are made worse - almost chemically lobotimized. It seems to me that depression, while a debilitating condition, is probably one that can be overcome, or at least managed, without the use of drugs. Only one person out of many I've known who have suffered from depression have been helped by medication. I'm sorry to hear that you and Sherelle have been suffering from it. I have also had a few bouts with it in the past and know how difficult it can be. I have never taken drugs for it, but have found that, among other things, getting regular doses of fresh air and sunshine, and being careful to not eat too many sugars does help. Like Sherelle's recent trip, I also found being by the ocean very helpful. As for drugs for other illnesses, I've found it also depends on the person's make-up sometimes. Ideally they would help or cure everyone, but some can be very dangerous to some people. This last year I've suddenly become allergic to almost every antibiotic out there. All these recent reports assuring us it is so easy to treat Anthrax with Cipro, Doxycycline and Pencillin do nothing but increase my hypochondria - it scares me into wanting to move over to New Zealand or some place far distant right away! ;-) Kakki P.S. Thanks for the Stevie tune, Victor - I think I have that one on vinyl or old cassette around here somewhere and may dig it out tonight! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 18:36:05 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Ryan Adams (NJC) > I hope the press there gives him a decent chance. Some writers here are > gleefully holding him up to Gram Parsons and Neil Young instead of > just letting him grow on his own accord. I just hate all that kind of > wind up. I agree with you here, Brenda. All I have to read about a new artist is that they're 'the new Joni Mitchell' and I'm immediately skeptical and uninterested. Mark E. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 14:42:29 +1300 From: "hell" Subject: Re: Doctor's pills give you brand new ills (NJC) Kakki wrote: > I also am of both minds about drugs for depression, schizophrenia, OCD, etc. > I have known people whose lives would not be functional at all without them > and have known others whose lives were made much worse by them. I don't > know that the researchers have quite figured it all out yet why some respond > beneficially and some are made worse - almost chemically lobotimized. It > seems to me that depression, while a debilitating condition, is probably one > that can be overcome, or at least managed, without the use of drugs. Only > one person out of many I've known who have suffered from depression have > been helped by medication. Well, I'm certainly no expert on depression or mental illness, but I know my father could not have functioned without medication (and I know he did try). He suffered from serious depression for most of his adult life, and even had electric shock treatment at one point, which certainly didn't help - although the medical profession in NZ at that time (early 70's) was not exactly at it's most informed. I certainly agree with you that in some cases, medication is not the answer. It seems to be the great "cure-all" for anything that ails us - pop a pill and you'll feel better - rather than trying to treat the real cause of the problem, which may be environmental, rather than physical. But when all other avenues have been explored, and no results are forth-coming, sometimes medication IS the only answer. > As for drugs for other illnesses, I've found it also depends on the person's > make-up sometimes. Ideally they would help or cure everyone, but some can > be very dangerous to some people. This last year I've suddenly become > allergic to almost every antibiotic out there. All these recent reports > assuring us it is so easy to treat Anthrax with Cipro, Doxycycline and > Pencillin do nothing but increase my hypochondria - it scares me into > wanting to move over to New Zealand or some place far distant right away! Not such a bad idea! Apparently New Zealand was voted the safest country to be in the world, right now! Why doesn't everyone come visit!? Hell ____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Hell's Personal Photo Page: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/main/personal.htm Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://www.nbls.co.nz ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2001 #498 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?