From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2001 #489 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Tuesday, October 16 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 489 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Today's Articles: October 16 [les@jmdl.com] Re: maggie mcnally!!!!! njc [M.Russell@iaea.org] eric bogle * tony blair *stan rogers * john mcdermott * not so many degrees of separation NJC [Ma] It's "Officially" Done!!!!!!!!! [AsharaJM@aol.com] RE: IRA njc ["Mike Pritchard" ] Doctor's pills give you brand new ills? ["joniphile" ] thank you Mack! (njc) [Anne Sandstrom ] RE: you're welcome! [Anne Sandstrom ] Please trim your replies! (NJC) [Steve Dulson ] Re: eire (njc) ["Lori R. Fye" ] Re: NJC Formerly IRA but now just a personal observation ["Leslie Ross" <] RE: Bay Area Get-together -- yes!!! [BigWaltinSF@aol.com] What song? [BigWaltinSF@aol.com] What song? [BigWaltinSF@aol.com] NORAD (njc) ["Lori R. Fye" ] IRA/Gerry Adams (NJC) [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: What song? [RoseMJoy@aol.com] NJC IRA and American history [TimandMaryPowers@aol.com] May Bluto save us all (njc) [BigWaltinSF@aol.com] The Jonifest 2001 Webpage [AsharaJM@aol.com] Re: NORAD (njc) ["Kakki" ] Re: What song? [BigWaltinSF@aol.com] RE: you're welcome! ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: What song? [TimandMaryPowers@aol.com] Re: What song? [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: IRA njc ["Kakki" ] Re: NORAD (njc) ["Lori R. Fye" ] Re: NORAD (njc) ["Kakki" ] NORAID? ["Dolphie Bush" ] Joni to Unveil Star in Toronto, Friday at Noon!! ["J. R. Mills" ] Patti Smith [Merk54@aol.com] re: eire (njc) ["Garret" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 03:02:56 -0400 From: les@jmdl.com Subject: Today's Articles: October 16 On October 16 these articles were published: 1998: "Taming the Tiger" - Patriot Ledger (Review - Album) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/docs/981016pl.cfm 1998: "Taming the Tiger" - Dayton Daily News (Review - Album) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/docs/981016ddn.cfm - ------------------------ The JMDL Article Database has 635 titles. http://www.jmdl.com/articles ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 11:05:06 +0200 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: Re: maggie mcnally!!!!! njc Hope you had a really great birthday, Maggie! Love, Marian ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 06:10:14 -0400 From: Mags Subject: eric bogle * tony blair *stan rogers * john mcdermott * not so many degrees of separation NJC A few weeks ago, list member John Low sent a tape of Eric Bogle's tunes for Brei and I as a result of our telling him that we are huge Stan Rogers fans ... and since Eric had met, had a wee dram with and exchanged songs with that Canadian gentle giant Stan and his not so little brother Garnet, at a folk fest in Vancouver, Eric was inspired to write a song called Safe in the Harbour, which just happens to be on the aformentioned tape (guaranteed to make you Stan fans weep). I had the rare and wonderful privilege of seeing Eric in concert this past Sunday in a small, intimate setting in the town of Brantford, Ontario (which has an official folk club with open stage every other Friday night). ... only about a 30 km drive away. Eric is on tour with John McDermott and decided to grace the folk club with his first solo performance in Canada. He has been here on many an occasion, just never performs without the comfort of a band behind him. Eric performed for well over two hours, he obviously loves what he does. He talked and talked some more and shared things so close to him, weaving stories and songs from his heart. He accepted my request to performe Safe in the Harbour . Eric is an incredible, gifted, funny. He has a tender heart and is kind and generous. He writes songs about real life people and shared his feeling that you cannot hide your 'self' if you are a song writer. So many of his songs moved me to tears. And everyone knows the words and sang along when the chorus came round..it was fantastic! Oh he is a fine story teller/singer/song writer with a strong message about life and love and finding meaning in the relationships around you and holding the one you love close to your heart, especially in troubled times. You cannot help but be touched to the core of your soul. Eric talked about the healing power of music as he mentioned September 11th and other tragedies of this life. He mentioned the struggle in Ireland. He talked about his song The Green Fields of France and how this was Tony Blair's favourite war poem and he knew this because it was printed as a human interest story in the UK. Tony Blair invited a wee ten year old named Margaret to number 10 Downing Street after receiving a letter from her telling Mr. Blair that she had never known peace in her life and that she hoped he would continue to work toward finding peace in Ireland. Mr. Blair gave Margaret an embossed leather bound copy of Eric's song. Eric sings of sorrow as well as joy. (sound familiar?) He acknowledged that we all have a close relationship with grief and sorrow, that we cannot have joy without sorrow in our life. He can have you laughing and crying, you know it's the same release. He is a Scot and now resides in Australia since 1969. Not a word about dingos! To this day, he carries his thick Scottish accent and wicked Scottish humour. At intermission, looking for an escape from the heat of the overcrowded room, I decide to buy raffle tickets to support the Brantford Folk Club. Well....I won two front row centre tickets to the concert that evening to see John McDermott and Eric Bogle . I never win anything and was shocked! I have never had front row seats to anything so that in itself was incredible...and it just kept getting better as song after song was shared. John McDermott has a fine Irish tenor voice and an ability to tug at heart strings too. He is sentimental and spoke of the importance of music in your life as a way of healing and telling stories. And tell stories he did. McDermott graciously shared the stage with the band as well as Eric of course, telling us that he was but a singer in the band, not the whole show. He leaned over to his wife in the front row, just a few seats down from me and kissed her dearly right after he sang a love song to her...*sigh* He dedicated a song for another couple who was celebrating their 43rd wedding anniversary and reunited a young couple who had been separated by distance on the eve of their sixth anniversary. John McDermott's band is amazing...Eamonn Dillon, Vern ... (didnt catch his last name) formally a woodwind player is from Blood Sweat and Tears.. anyway, he was amazing too. Played clarinet, flute, sax (soprano and tenor) and some other haunting wind instrument that Ive not seen before. Anne Lindsay...from Toronto...mandolin and fiddle player with a fine voice...didnt catch the name of the guitarist ...incredible talent... and then another bit of synchronicity ...i recognized the keyboard player from Halifax. And speaking of rare treats, ...a real omg moment to hear Eamonn Dillon playing Uillean Pipes.... Eamonn was born and raised in West Belfast, Northern Ireland, started playing the tin whistle at the age of ten and has developed into a world class performer. Incredible sounds...heart wrenching, soul aching sounds cry out from those pipes. I went with my daughter and I know this did us both the world of good. Music is healing indeed. thanks for the inspiration Brei. xoxox Mags npimh: I've Got You To See Me Through, Eleanor McEvoy - -- And this loving is a drawing close, a tuning in, an opening. Until one perfect moment; but how can it be expressed? A receiving, an enfolding as I cradle you in my arms. Within my heart, within my soul, You are my true love. --Lui Collins - --- _~O / /\_, ___/\ /_ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 06:49:59 EDT From: AsharaJM@aol.com Subject: It's "Officially" Done!!!!!!!!! The Jonifest 2001 webpage is FINALLY, officially, really, no kidding, done!!!!!!!! Thank you Les and Smurf for all your hard work!!!! Check it out at: http://www.jmdl.com/jonifest/jf0109ne.cfm We're still looking for a picture of the whole group that was taken on the stage at the church. Does "anyone" have that picture? Hugs, Ashara ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 12:04:39 +0200 From: "Mike Pritchard" Subject: RE: IRA njc These are my comments on the recent IRA debate. They are not directed at anyone in particular, although Kakki has possibly been the most visible poster during this debate and the quotes I comment on come mostly from her. They are not an attack on Kakki or anyone else, just responses to some comments from her but also from Catherine, Mack, Bob and Jacky. Kakki said (in different mails, I am summarising): >> .a few Irish pubs in the U.S. passing a hat here and there 30 years ago.<< >> .I hope you know that most Americans, including myself, Irish background or not, know little or nothing about either the IRA or American support for it.<< >> .I don't know what NORAID is, for example<< Catherine McKay said: >>Colin, what the heck is Noraid? Never heard of it!<< Colin has pointed out, and I agree with him, that the scale of fundraising by NORAID and other groups is way beyond 'passing a hat here and there 30 years ago'. I accept that Kakki has no knowledge of this fundraising and believe her statements of innocence and ignorance. What surprises me is that NORAID is unknown to people of Irish descent, like Kakki, and others. It is widely known in Britain and is hardly a secret in many places in the USA. I am genuinely surprised to hear Kakki's reaction. No more than that. Catherine McKay and Kakki, respectively, both express ignorance of NORAID. Any reference book on Irish Politics or Sociology will explain that Noraid is The Northern Irish Aid Committee and will probably also say that it is widely suspected (to say the least) of channelling funds to the Provisional IRA, particularly for buying arms. The US govt has on occasions refused to extradite people wanted by the British govt for terrorist activities, accepting the argument that the person wanted by the Brits had been engaged in a 'legitimate conflict'. Judge Sprizzo, delivered this verdict in 1986 in New York, I believe, in the case of Joe Doherty. Doherty was visited in prison by Cardinal O'Connor of NYC and the Irish Cardinal O'Fiach. I think there is also a street corner named after Doherty in NYC, but listers from NYC may correct or confirm this. There was a case too in Santa Barbara but I need not go into this (details on request). The point is that the Doherty case was not a minor issue and I imagine that anyone in the NYC area, especially of Irish ancestry, would have known of this and related matters via the trial. Colin said: >> Our country (UK) and yours (USA) has supported terrorists when it has suited them, that is the point I was making.<< I agree. See my closing remarks. Kakki said: >>But the U.S. government does not support the IRA and never has.<< I am not suggesting that the U.S. government supports the IRA, and I don't believe the blanket statement that 'Americans (sic) support the IRA' and would never say this myself but what about Bill Clinton going out of his way to meet Gerry Adams of Sinn Fein (Political Wing of IRA, more or less) in Northern Ireland a few years ago? There are other ways of support than financial. I'm sure that Sinn Fein received a huge amount of moral support that day. Kakki said >>But I haven't seen many articles here in the U.S. saying that we are supporting it or providing examples of who is supporting it. I think most Americans don't pay much attention to it<< It's not surprising that Americans (sic) don't pay attention when they do not really see articles describing the support that a tiny (though influential) minority of US citizens gives to the IRA. My question is "Why doesn't this appear on US tv channels?" Kakki said: >>I can imagine that some connected with the IRA would no doubt put up a donation box in Catholic churches in the U.S. asking only for money "for the poor orphans of Northern Ireland." Many people, unfortunately are just not savvy or educated enough to suspect it may be really going to the IRA and that they are being duped.<< This, that people lack the savvy or the education, I find a little harder to believe. Mack said: >>Just curious and would be very interested in hearing the facts from not only Brits but the Irish.<< I agree that this is the best way to learn, to ask for opinions of people 'on the ground'. I speak from the relative distance of Spain, but after having studied the Political Sociology of Northern Ireland some years ago. Ironic, of course, that I now live in a country where ETA have killed over 800 people in the last 30 years and where hardly a month goes by without another car bomb or murder, frequently in Barcelona. It's good to hear from people like Mary Powers and Bob Murphy who can fill in the picture. More voices please. >> It seems like people in the U.K. may have more information than the ordinary American about the millions of dollars sent by seemingly official sources in the U.S. to the IRA.<< I am not suggesting these sources are seemingly official, only that they certainly exist. I do not suggest, and do not believe, that they are sanctioned in any way by the US govt.Catherine said: >> A terrorist is a terrorist is a terrorist<< I say 'that depends'. Nelson Mandela was once called a terrorist, Menahem Begin was believed by the British Government to be a terrorist; my Webster's calls him a 'statesman' and 'Nobel Peace Prize' winner. Half the political leaders of the world (perhaps I exaggerate a little) were once referred to as terrorists by political opponents. Look at the history of Africa. Look at the history of Latin America. Was George Washington not regarded as a terrorist by the British govt? No more for today, but thanks to all for bringing up the topic and bringing light to it. Mike in BCN NP Kronos Quartet plays Philip Glass ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 20:56:18 +0800 From: "joniphile" Subject: Doctor's pills give you brand new ills? Hi all, I have joined the discussion list for a while now and this is my first post. In "Sex kills", Joni wrote "...doctor's pills give you brand new ills..." Does anyone know if she was referring to her own situation back then? I remembered from some interview that she was having a lot of personal stresses during the "Turbulent Indigo" period, ill health being part of it. Hence also the Job's song. I am asking this because I am currently suffering bad withdrawal symptoms from tranquillisers prescribed to me by some irresponsible doctor, for insomnia. I have to taper them off slowly now and I feel terrible most days. I am angry about it. I can't help wondering if Joni was referring to a similar experience, maybe addicted on some sleeping pills?? For one thing, her chain smoking is an addiction. For another, I remember from another article that she had peculiar sleeping habits. BTW, Stevie Nicks was also addicted on tranquillisers previously. She recently went on TV to talk about her battle with it. Justin ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 09:13:46 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Doctor's pills give you brand new ills? <> I haven't heard her address this *specifically*, Justin, but you can't help but believe that she was referring to the medical problems she had in the 80's & 90's. Her philosophy here is one I whole-heartedly agree with. I think our culture is too quick to want to pop a pill to fix themselves in lieu of seeking to correct what truly is causing the problem. Mind you, I realize that medicine is great stuff and has its place. I just think we can take it too far sometimes. Thanks for the post, and good luck with your situation...and hey, WELCOME to the Joni List! :~) Bob NP (Now Playing) Supertramp, "Goodbye Stranger" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 08:15:30 -0500 From: "Rob Ettridge" Subject: NJC IRA / Some British Isles Geography This is all a bit long, but I got onto a bit of a roll. I normally keep out of political discussions on the list, and maybe I'd do well to keep out of this one, but here goes... NORAID is fairly well known in the UK. It is definitely a source of anti-American feeling, especially whenever there is a bomb or a bombscare. This is not to say that myself or the majority of the British public necessarily share this view. But I do know people that I would consider to be anti-American and the NORAID issue is definitely fuel to that fire. I personally don't know the workings of NORAID and I treat everything in the media as propaganda, so I like to think it's a few misguided Americans and a lot of bad media attention. It is often considered that St Patricks day in Boston is used for fundraising for the IRA, but this could well be an urban-myth as far as I know. I don't always understand the adjectives that are put before the word American anyway. For instance, why did Mariah Carey once win 'Irish-American Achievement Award' (or something similar)? How had being Irish-American ever held her back? And when Joni says 'Must be the Irish blood', I wonder what she means. How Irish is Joni? If I go back to my great-grandparents I am an Irish-Welsh-Jewish-Italian-Brazilian-Dutch-French-Briton, but most of those adjectives have had no impact on my life or my culture. Of course there are many times when the terms are relevant, and I'm sure these will be pointed out to me, but there are occassionally times when I've thought certain uses were redundant. (As an aside, I once had a flatmate in London who considered herself Scottish-American despite never having visited Scotland - easily done in a weekend from London - and without knowing what the capital city is, what a clan or haggis are, or in fact knowing anything at all about Scotland, but she would gladly tell anyone that various facets of her personality were due to the fact that she was Scottish-American. It always made me chuckle!) One example of an Irish-American who openly supported the IRA was Gene Kelly. He was proud of making regular donations and saw them as freedom fighters. There are few screen actors, dancers or singers that I would hold as highly as I would like to hold Gene Kelly, but this political viewpoint will always be a thorn in the side of my admiration. To say that the 'British' should pull out of 'Northern Ireland' is an over simplification. As I think Colin said, one of the main problems is that most of the population of Northern Ireland consider themselves British. The British Government consists of democratically elected MPs from all sides of the conflicts, and we are all one country. (To talk about what the 'English' should do is bordering on offensive as it feeds into the Hollywood idea that the English are the root of all evil and all other British groups are fun-loving saints, but that's another story.) The problem is that some people, perhaps validly, perhaps not, don't want it that way, and there is no easy answer to the problem. I honestly, honestly, honestly don't mean this to be a British vs US thing, and I know that this is glib and an oversimplification but as a tenuous example: to say that the 'British' should leave Northern Ireland makes as much sense as saying that 'Americans' should leave Alaska or pull out of Hawaii. And yes the British were responsible for genocide and famine and all sorts of atrocities, but how does that sit next to the treatment of Native-Americans? And yes the land was taken by force, but wasn't half of the American West claimed that way? If Spanish millionaires were funding Mexicans to bomb major American cities in order to liberate California, for example, then I doubt Gene Kelly would see them as freedom fighters. Of course it's not that easy (and these comparisons aren't perfect), but that is the point I'm obsurely trying to make. Anyway, enough of my rant... And on with some Geography. If this is patronising excuse me, but I thought I'd clarify a few of the borders. This is a very hazy area and open for debate, so feel free to correct me. I wish I had a map and a pointer for this, but hey... UK: First off, the country I live in is the UK. It's full title is the United Kingdom of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, I think. Apart from those main areas/countries, also included are the Isle of Man (in the Irish Sea), the Channel Islands (Jersey, Guernsey, Herm, Sark and Alderney, off of the coast of France), and probably somewhere else I've forgotten. Other islands (Skye, Anglesey, Isles of Scilly for example) are generally considered part of one of the larger countries. If you're being fussy then Berwick (long story) should also be specified. And most folk from Cornwall would ask to be listed separately from England as they are technically a principality like Wales. But I draw the line at specifying Yorkshire separately;-) GB: Great Britain is a fairly redundant term as it refers to the island which is the mainland of the UK. This means that it excludes NI, Isle of Man, Channel Islands, but also all of the 'near-shore' islands, I think. British Isles: The group of islands that make up all that chunk of the world. This includes Great Britain (ie the mainland), Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, Isle of Man etc, and all of the near-shore islands. Although it doesn't include the Channel Islands as they are too near France. But all of this still lacks a definition of what is Britain and British etc with regards to the Irish situation. So when we talk about what the 'British' should do in Northern Ireland it means little. If we mean the British Government, well then that is also the government representing Northern Ireland, so how does that work? I don't know the answer. I wish I did. I've been thinking about it since I was old enough to watch the news and read the papers. That is why I am always amazed at the ease with which *some* Americans (not people from the list, I hasten to add, but others I have met, and those in the media) can answer the 'Irish Question' in a sentence. Rob _____________________________________________ Free email with personality! Over 200 domains! http://www.MyOwnEmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 09:28:07 EDT From: Reuben3rd@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni/Gap I remember seeing this photo in Rolling Stone a few times when the campaign was running. I'm sure I pulled one out at the time, I'll see if I can dig it up and get the name of the photographer. Reuben ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 09:31:57 EDT From: Reuben3rd@aol.com Subject: Re: Judy Collins in Q (sjc) From "Dorothy"...I love that one. Judy is another one who gets a lot of credit for her early to mid period, but her trio of late 70's early 80's albums sometimes get lost in the shuffle. "Hard Times For Lovers", "Times of Our Lives", and "Running For My Life" are good records, and some of my favorites of Judy's..."Angel On My Side", "Mama Mama", "Almost Free", "I Remember Sky"...lots of good tracks on these three. Reuben >>Don't have a lot of Judy, three albums, but the ones I have I really like, especially hard times for lovers. "there ain't no way to stand Kansas when you been to Oz". wow. mack<< ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 06:48:01 -0700 (PDT) From: "Lori R. Fye" Subject: Re: dates and measurements (njc) Hell wrote: > Catsup is catching on (usually called ketchup) > thanks to McDonalds with those annoying little > plastic sachets (that never put the damn stuff > where you want it - mine usually ends up coming > out the wrong end, or missing the fries entirely, > and going all over my foot). Here's the thing about those catsup/ketchup packets (sachets? interesting word, although correct. if you said that in the U.S., though, people would assume you're talking about something filled with perfume or potpourri): They were designed so you could cut (or tear) one corner and squeeze a small amount of the condiment directly on one fry at a time. I rarely see people do this, but that's how they were designed to be used. Handy in the car, but only if you have both hands free. Lori in MD ~ Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 10:00:52 -0400 From: Anne Sandstrom Subject: thank you Mack! (njc) > Since coming here have found women who make me see them as this kind of woman and can see them inside the lyrics and the music. Anne, Ashara. Thank you, Mack. What a nice thing to say! I used to perform "Cook with Honey" when I was in high school. I think I had similar visions as a result of this song. lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 10:14:05 -0400 From: Anne Sandstrom Subject: RE: you're welcome! Hi Kate. I hope you don't mind me sharing my response to you with the list. As you read, I'll think you'll see why I wanted to share these thoughts. > please keep writing to the list, I love hearing your thoughts! Thanks you. And even though we don't share the same point of view on the war, I enjoy reading your posts. You make me think. You inspire me to consider all options. And even though you don't change my mind, you expand my thinking. It's so tempting to try to mold everyone in our own image. But we need the variety of views to see all possibilities. Your voice is just as important and as American as anyone's. Thank for participating in this important debate. "and that's what it's all about, Charlie Brown..." lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 07:51:25 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Please trim your replies! (NJC) Colin, Dolphie (and others) please, please, please trim your replies! > > > > > have a parade in the predominately Jewish city of Skokie, Ill. > > However, > > > > > there are more insidious groups at work in the U.S. who provide a fake You are sending pages and pages back to the list - five times in the sample above. Please observe good netiquette. - -- ######################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://www.tinkersown.com "The Living Tradition Concert Series" http://www.thelivingtradition.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 08:44:52 -0700 (PDT) From: "Lori R. Fye" Subject: Re: eire (njc) Here's a link to a wealth of info about Northern Ireland: http://wwwvms.utexas.edu/~jdana/history/ni.html Lori Fye (which began as O'Fiaich, meaning "raven"), not very far from Baltimore, MD ; ) ~ Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 15:48:22 +0000 From: "Leslie Ross" Subject: Re: NJC Formerly IRA but now just a personal observation One of the saddest things I encountered relating to the continuing troubles in Northern Ireland was with my fellow students with whom I studied in Dundee (Scotland). Among the student body were a number from Northern Ireland who were just the most fun and light-hearted people and who all seemed to get along together...until they had a drink. Then the old religion based divisions would rear their heads and they'd go for each other like cat and dog. It was horrible to witness. The threatened and sometimes realised violence. What always surprised me was how through the haze of hang-over the following day, they all seemed to set aside their differences and get on with getting on with one another. And these were supposedly the more enlightened and educated kids. It didn't bode well for the future of Northern Ireland back in 1988....and, well, it's 2001 and nothing much seems to have improved there. There may be no armed check-points on the high streets of Belfast but adults can still be witnessed on TV screaming vile abuse at very young children making their way through neighbourhoods to school. Les (London) _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 11:59:05 EDT From: BigWaltinSF@aol.com Subject: RE: Bay Area Get-together -- yes!!! Hey, Darice -- I like the idea of the 7th as well, for obvious reasons, and my schedule is quite free, but if some people would have trouble attending unless it's a weekend, I'd be willing to move it to one weekend or the other -- as long as it's after I'm back in SF, on the 24th. Location-wise -- I kinda prefer SF itself, but if the majority preferred Sausolito, that would be okay, as long as we could carpool -- I'm probably not the only city rat without a car. Also, as I mentioned, there *are* no more smoky dives here in SF (as per Case of You, cover of Bother Sides Now, Richard...), but hopefully the place you mentioned on Chestnut (Mezes, was it?) isn't prohibitively expensive. [By the way, I'm sure you've organized things before, but just in case, I should remind you that as suggestions come in, you'll find you can't please everyone. This is such a nice thing for you to do, and don't let it stress you.] Also by the way, have you invited the following people: richard2sf@earthlink.net (Richard Goldman), john@snapinc.com (John Goldsmith), MGVal@aol.com (not sure of her name), and Russ Bowden (Rustytrazom[?].something -- I didn't bring his e-mail address with me -- do you know it? if not, put a request on the list, and I'm sure he'll reply). Sorry if you've already done all this. It's hard to know who knows whom, as I've only been a jmdler for two months, and am only now getting to know people. Hugs and much appreciation for organizing this, Walt Breen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 12:33:47 EDT From: BigWaltinSF@aol.com Subject: What song? Hey, Mary (and everyone), what song is this from -- or is it a poem? It sounds profoundly early-joni-ish, but I can't locate it in my mind. Perhaps one of the songs I don't know? >People hurry by so quickly Don't they hear the melodies In the chiming and the clicking And the laughing harmonies< Thanks, Walt (still in RI) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 12:33:58 EDT From: BigWaltinSF@aol.com Subject: What song? Hey, Mary (and everyone), what song is this from -- or is it a poem? It sounds profoundly early-joni-ish, but I can't locate it in my mind. Perhaps one of the songs I don't know? >People hurry by so quickly Don't they hear the melodies In the chiming and the clicking And the laughing harmonies< Thanks, Walt (still in RI) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 09:45:49 -0700 (PDT) From: "Lori R. Fye" Subject: NORAD (njc) Kakki wrote: > I don't know what NORAID is, for example. It sounded > like NORAD but that's one of the U.S. secret facilities > in Colorado or somewhere where they hide out the government > in case of a nuke attack. NORAD is an acronym for the North American Air Defense Command, for whom I worked when I was in the Air Force. It's headquartered inside of Cheyenne Mountain in Colorado Springs. When my Mary was a computer programmer for the AF, she worked near there. Here are some interesting links: http://www.peterson.af.mil/norad/ https://www.cheyennemountain.af.mil/cmoc/cmocindex.html http://www.dallasnews.com/travel/colorado/25699_norad.html Lori in MD ~ Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 12:47:22 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: IRA/Gerry Adams (NJC) Speaking of the IRA and terrorism in general, the following item was in today's New York Post: LONGTIME Sinn Fein leader Gerry Adams has apparently lost a $600,000 book advance as an indirect consequence of the Sept. 11 attack on America. The London Times reports that Adams' book will likely be canceled because no publisher would want to be seen to be profiting from terrorism of any stripe. His agent, Andrew ("The Jackal") Wylie, is said to be considering dropping Adams as a client in deference to some of his other authors, like Martin Amis. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 12:49:11 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: What song? In a message dated 10/16/01 12:35:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, BigWaltinSF@aol.com writes: > >People hurry by so quickly > Don't they hear the melodies > In the chiming and the clicking > And the laughing harmonies< > > They are some of the lyrics to "Songs to aging children come" from her Clouds album. Rose in NJ rosemjoy@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 12:49:57 EDT From: TimandMaryPowers@aol.com Subject: NJC IRA and American history Hello all, what amazes me about the IRA is that the same people (white Americans) who support them would not support reparations for African Americans. White people in this country tend to deny personal responsibility for slavery and racial oppression, and yet if they support the IRA they are endorsing assigning collective guilt to the British. In fact, I've heard there is a book (How the Irish became white) which says that the Irish gained acceptance by becoming prejudiced against African Americans. I am very much aware of America's terrible history and it is easier to blame someone else than really look at yourself. Mary ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 13:00:34 EDT From: BigWaltinSF@aol.com Subject: May Bluto save us all (njc) Hi, all, I've debated posting this -- it was written by a friend of a friend -- but hell, it *is* funny, and to me it expresses the possible hopelessness of dealing with people who have been brainwashed -- *not* regular, normal religious or non-religios folks like (I assume) most of us -- so, please, no flames!! -- Walt Interview with a Terrorist!!!!! Three men were caught trying to hijack an Amtrak out of Newark NJ on Sept. 22nd. Reporter Dan Dander has managed to cadge an exclusive interview with one of them: Q Hello. A Yes, Hello. Q Your name is? A We don't use names. Q What's on my mind, what's on the mind of many people in America and throughout the world, is "Why Amtrak?" A Well, security has been tight at your airports. Q But- A And the railroad train can be a mighty weapon in the hands of Bluto. Q Bluto? A May He reign in splendor for a thousand years! Q Bluto? Who's Bluto? A The one God, the true God, the Everlasting and Complete, who will reign in splendor for a thousand years. Q Bluto? This is a jihad for a god named Bluto? A No, we call it a "whoo-hah!" Whoo-hah! Whoo-hah for Bluto! Down with the popeyes american of the Uncle Sam! Whoo-hah! Q Quiet, or they'll put you back in the cage. A Bluto will reign in splendor for a thousand years! Q So you said. Hey- but what happens after the thousand years? A We don't know about that. May Bluto be merciful. Q But what's been on the minds of people is- A How did they catch us. They hit us over the heads. Q Who did? A The Amtrak engineers, may their bodies boil in oil. Q They hit you over the head? A They took away our boxes. Q You box-cutters? A No, we didn't think we could get box-cutters on the train. So we just took the boxes. But they took away our boxes and hit us over the heads. Q You threatened them with boxes? A Yes. The box is a powerful weapon in the hands of Bluto. Q Cardboard boxes? A Yes. Q And they hit you over the head? A Over the heads, yes. Bluto will use their bowels for holiday lights. Yes. Q All right. But the question everyone is asking is- A Our treatment of women. Q No, actually- A Our women are pure and chaste. We do not have the dirty sex with them. We do not subjugate them as do you stinking americans. Q No sex? Not at all? A Not at all. It is filthy. It is unclean. Q So you have no children? A They conceive as Mary did Jesus. Q So you have no children. A We have many children. Bluto is very busy. Q I guess someone is very busy. As I was saying- A We do not touch our women. We keep them in aquariums. Q Aquariums! A Yes. Q Under water? A Of course not, stupid uncle sam, they would drown. We do not drown our women! Q My apologies. A Your apologies will not stop the whoo-hah! Whoo-hah! Whoo-hah! Whoo-hah for Bluto! Q All right, back to what I was saying, my original question- you tried to hijack an Amtrak- A Yes. We were to crash it into your american landmark. Q The Amtrak? What landmark? A The Palace of the King of Burgers. It is on your television all the time. Q But- Burger King? But- first of all- the trains are on tracks. They are on tracks. How would you get them off the tracks? A These powerful weapons of Bluto- you have confined them to tracks? Ah yes, the inscrutable monkey mind of the infidel... we should have known this. And these tracks do not lead to the Palace of the King of Burgers? Q No. A No? Q No. A They are on tracks. This perhaps would explain the silence of the blessed martyrs who hijacked the Raritan Valley Line out of Dunellen. They were to take down Air Force One. Q Did they also have boxes? A Yes. Q Then I imagine they were hit over the heads. A It is unfortunate, but Bluto will prevail! Whoo-hah! Whoo-hah! Whoo-hah for Bluto! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 14:48:44 EDT From: AsharaJM@aol.com Subject: The Jonifest 2001 Webpage I don't know if you are all aware of the fact that there are actually 394 pictures on the Jonifest 2001 page, not just the ones that are with the text. To see them all, just use the search engine and click on display all, or search by day. Hugs, Ashara ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 12:02:55 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: NORAD (njc) Thanks Lori, I just came across something earlier today that reminded me of this. My mind must be going to squash these days ;-) Now I'm trying to remember what the hidden place in Colorado is called! Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 15:23:41 EDT From: BigWaltinSF@aol.com Subject: Re: What song? I asked about the lyric that Mary closed her posts with. Bob (Murphy) said: It's "Songs to Aging Children Come". Do I win anything? Just my red face. I'm such an aging child I'm beginning to forget lyrics. Walt ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 12:08:06 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: you're welcome! i don't mind you sharing this with the list at all anne... like you, i love hearing other peoples points of view, whether i am in agreement or not i always learn something...i especially love when people's posts are from the heart & respectful of others like yours always are... "Your voice is just as important and as American as anyone's." oh anne, thank you so much for saying this...xxxooo i have been so reflective lately...one of the things i have been thinking about is how much i enjoy being on this list...i have learned so much about joni & oh so many other subjects!...sometimes when the going gets rocky i wonder if its worth it...but weathering the storms, it always is... ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 15:36:47 EDT From: TimandMaryPowers@aol.com Subject: Re: What song? hi Walt, "Songs to Aging Children Come" is actually not one of my most favorite Joni songs, although I like it. I just really like those lyrics. question - what is your favorite Joni song and why? does it change over time? if I had to pick one, I'd say "amelia" although I like "urge for going" and "little green" almost as much. otherwise, it depends on what I'm listening to. Mary (no Joni quote since I'm not sending this from my home account) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 15:41:16 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: What song? <> Nothing to apologize for, Walt...I'd be surprised if half of this crowd could have identified those as quickly as Smurph, unless they were using the search tool on the JMDL! Sadly, Clouds is generally one of Joni's least popular records here, and I think it's one of her prettiest. And every song on it (The Gallery being the exception) has been covered by someone! And BSN by LOTS of someones, I'm almost over the 200 mark in identifying them.... Bob NP: Etta James, "At Last" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 12:42:46 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: IRA njc Mike wrote: >What surprises me is that NORAID is unknown to >people of Irish descent, like Kakki, and others. It is >widely known in Britain and is hardly a secret in many >places in the USA. And I'm totally baffled that you would be surprised that I didn't know about NORAID. Do you think American people with some Irish background are somehow born with this knowledge? You seem to assume I should know about it from books on Irish politics and Sociology. Well, those aren't well-studied subjects in American schools, if they are offered at all. The only Irish type books I've read are pictorials of the Irish countryside and a history book of the Celts from around the 11th century. I have a part Irish ethnic background and a 100% Irish name but I am really an American "mutt" who is also part French, English and Welsh, with a touch of Dutch, so my make-up includes a lot of other influences besides Irish. I also spent more time growing up with my Protestant and Jewish family members than my Irish ones. My knowledge of the Irish has been mainly limited to the cultural and historical side. I did hear of their suffering in Ireland in the 19th century and of their suffering in the U.S. in the 19th and early 20th century. I briefly belonged to an Irish/American business and social network organization and never heard anything about NORAID, the IRA or anything political for that matter. It was mostly about having fun and learning about how business is done in both countries. > but what about Bill Clinton going out of his way to meet > Gerry Adams of Sinn Fein (Political Wing of IRA, more >or less) in Northern Ireland a few years ago? More ignorance here on my part as to why he was there, etc., but the way this was portrayed in the American media was that this was a great victory for peace in Northen Ireland and that all sides were very pleased with it. It was hailed as some kind of new age of enlightenment. You wrote concerning my comment that people may be duped into giving to the IRA by believing they are helping poor children in Northern Ireland. > This, that people lack the savvy or the education, I find >a little harder to believe. Again, I am baffled as to why you would think this. Last night and this morning I did internet searches to try to learn about NORAID. The way NORAID itself portrays itself is exactly as a humanitarian organization for oppressed families in Northern Ireland. They say nothing about being a channel for the IRA. You cannot imagine that some sympathetic people of Irish descent in the U.S. would give to them thinking that they were just trying to help poor children? I found a number of other websites from my NORAID searches and a lot of it made my head spin. Some of the anti-Irish sentiment reminded me of vicious KKK literature. It is not easy to know just what exactly is going on from all the rantings except to be left with the impression that there is sure a lot of entrnched paranoia and irrational hate abounding. I don't think you can expect Americans to solve or understand the problems over there very easily. Getting back to one of the original points of where this discussion started, the U.S. has denounced the IRA. There are many, many examples of what the U.S. has done to fight the IRA that you can learn from yet other websites. The U.S. Dept. of Justice has been on it for many years and action to stop money and weapons going to the IRA did not just start a few years ago. I have no doubt that they have been closely monitoring NORAID for a long time. I have more to write about this but don't have the time right now. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 13:10:51 -0700 (PDT) From: "Lori R. Fye" Subject: Re: NORAD (njc) > Now I'm trying to remember what > the hidden place in Colorado is called! Well, NORAD is pretty well inside the mountain -- is that what you're thinking of? Lori ~ Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 13:13:42 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: NORAD (njc) Maybe that's it. Is that the same place they are supposed to take the President, etc. in case of a nuclear war? And can you still get a few passes to get us in, Lori? ;-D Kakki > > Now I'm trying to remember what > > the hidden place in Colorado is called! > > Well, NORAD is pretty well inside the mountain -- is >that what you're thinking of? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 15:20:37 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: NORAID? I have also never heard of or read anything concerning NORAID. Mack ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 14:12:36 -0700 From: "J. R. Mills" Subject: Joni to Unveil Star in Toronto, Friday at Noon!! The Toronto Sun October 16, 2001 Tuesday I hope someone can be there to take photos and say hi to Joni for me! :-) - -Julius ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 14:17:48 -0700 (PDT) From: "Lori R. Fye" Subject: Re: NORAD (njc) > Is that the same place they are supposed to > take the President, etc. in case of a nuclear > war? Probably, although it's just as likely they'd keep him airborne in Air Force One (a la the 1983 TV movie "The Day After"). > And can you still get a few passes to get us in, > Lori? Perhaps Mary has some lying around at home somewhere ... ; ) Speaking of things NORAD, here are some links to my first duty station, on the vast and bleak and God forsaken paprika plains of the far northwest corner of North Dakota: Before: http://www.radomes.org/acwrons/webpages/fortuna/ Additional before: http://www.radomes.org/acwrons/scripts/acwphotos.cgi?pic=FortunaAFSND&site=Fortuna+AFS,+ND After: http://www.radomes.org/acwrons/recent/FortunaAFSND.html The site opened in 1952 and closed in 1979. Lori, being self-indulgent in MD ~ Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 17:35:12 EDT From: Merk54@aol.com Subject: Patti Smith Garret, Thanks for sharing Patti's 'diary' with us - very moving and insightful. I share alot of her feelings, though could never convey them as beautifully. Of course, that's the role that great poets are supposed to play. Now, if only a certain Ms. Mitchell would follow suit... Jack ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 23:52:23 +0100 From: "Garret" Subject: re: eire (njc) I guess i should throw in my two cents on all the Irish talk that's going on. I'm sure that this post will be a mere collection of random thoughts and responses to previous posts that i can only half remember, but since my adrenaline buzz from the events of the day haven't yet worn off i'll go on.... Firstly, and most importantly, the Irish for kiss my ass is "pog mo thoin", with some accents in there for good measure. The language is called Gaeilge, and is compulsory in our schools (although my dyslexic brother is an exception). After 14 years of Gaeilge in school i can say "pog mo thoin" with clarity, oh the mind boggles,lol. Wally K's tale of his trip to Dublin and killarney made me laugh sooooo much. You guys don't know *accurate* this is!!!! Honestly, i think i know those ladies:-) One question Wally...when you coming back to Ireland, eh?? eh?? I was surprised by Macks surprise that the south of Ireland is a republic! wow:-) mind you, i have met French people that didn't know *where* Ireland is. AND while in London a Turkish man in a chip/kebab shop asked us if Dublin was behind the local tesco, saying that they do deliveries there,lol. Ireland, or Eire, consists of 32 counties in four provinces- Leinster, Munster, Connaught, and Ulster. Ulster is also known as Northern Ireland, i guess it depends on where your biases lie, to me and most people i know it is interchangeable. It consists of six counties that are under British rule. The remaining 26 counties make up the Republic Of Ireland. Mary, your summary is definitely accurate insofar as it goes, it sounds a little one sided to me though. Perhaps one sided is the wrong term, what you failed to mention is that a large part of the population of N Ireland are of Scottish descent(sp??), and it must be stressed that these people do want to remain part of the United Kingdom, or certainly the majority do. I have read statistics that four of the six counties have majorities that wish to remain with Britain while the other two have a more republican majority. Yes, this does reflect religious differences. Indeed, financially they are better off in their current situation. The Irish famine of 1845-1847 or thereabouts is indeed a contentious issue in this country. Although many people appear to have gotten past it, a large contingent of people still carry some bitterness. The population was reduced from million to about 3.8million between 1845 and 1905, this is due to death and emigration. Today i believe the population of the 32 counties to be around 5.5 million. Mary, the IRA's "cause" *is* Northern Ireland. Their problem (or certainly one of them) is the fact that this island is split. They don't want an independent south- they want one independent Ireland, they're after unity. Just moving to the south would not satisfy them unfortunately. They were outlawed in the 1930's by Eamon deValera. So it can be seen that they have a long history, and yes Mary, you are right, they do have long memories, grievances from the past do still seem to live. In the Republic of Ireland (the south) things are very different from the north. Many people, Americans in particular (in my experience, not a hard fact i guess), seem to think that the troubles that get media coverage here are all over the country. Not at all. To be honest, i feel as far away from it as do people in, say, Saskatoon. In fact, i think Dublin is safer than London in that regard. Not that i'm trying to boast, i do feel that the entire situation is tragic, and i do not claim to have complete understanding. I would, however, be willing to offer some insights, opinions or historical facts to anyone on or off list that would be interested. To close i'd just like to repeat the words of Catherine McKay: >As far as I'm concerned, anyone who thinks the IRA are patriots (to Ireland) is either misguided or just plain stupid. A terrorist is a terrorist is a terrorist - they are out for no one but themselves, everyone else be damned. > GARRET ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2001 #489 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?