From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2001 #487 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Monday, October 15 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 487 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: It arrived! [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Subject: Re: dates and measurements (njc) ["Kate Bennett" ] The Gap ad [Anne Sandstrom ] Re: The Gap ad ["Dolphie Bush" ] Bay Area (San Francisco, CA)- joni get-together [daricem@sfpl.lib.ca.us] RE: response to terrorism (njc) ["Kate Bennett" ] Patti Smith long- NJC ["Garret" ] Re: It arrived! [TimandMaryPowers@aol.com] Re: It arrived! [TimandMaryPowers@aol.com] Re: Judy Collins in Q (sjc) [Relayer211@aol.com] Re: US/IRA (njc) [colin ] Re: the new california domestic partners bill (NJC) [colin ] Re: US/IRA (njc) [TimandMaryPowers@aol.com] Re: New warning (NJC) [Catherine McKay ] Re: Judy Collins in Q njc ["Dolphie Bush" ] Re: US/IRA (njc) ["Dolphie Bush" ] Re: njc [Catherine McKay ] Re: US/IRA (njc) ["Dolphie Bush" ] Re: US/IRA (njc) [Catherine McKay ] Re: US/IRA (njc) [Catherine McKay ] Re: Judy Collins in Q njc [AsharaJM@aol.com] blue moon and harvest moon njc ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: US/IRA (njc) ["Kakki" ] our children (njc) ["shane mattison" ] Irish stuff and Brendan Behan (njc) [Murphycopy@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 18:15:56 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: It arrived! In a message dated 10/15/01 5:22:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, revrvl@chartermi.net writes: > There is a picture of Joni in 1990 with a self-portrait from a GAP ad - > that was news to me! Anyone remember Joni in GAP ads? > > I do. Wally has a picture of himself in front of a huge billboard ad on the JM.com site. I sure wish I could find that Italian photographer from Milan who worked on this ad campaign. I met him at the BSN concert in NYC. I was the JM.Com photographer that night. He had approached me to ask me where the photographers were supposed to be situated that night. He told me his name and showed me some of his work, which included some of those shots taken. Damn if I remembered in all the excitement. I wish I would have gotten his card or something....He said he was a friend of Joni's and that was how he had a photo pass. He also mentioned that he had an exhibit in the city and that's what brought him to NY. If anyone has a clue as to who this photographer might be, I'd appreciate it. I ordered my copy of Karen's book from the amazon UK site as well. There is a link to it on the JM.com site. I can hardly wait until it arrives. How long did yours take Vince? all the best ~Rose in NJ rosemjoy@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 15:02:27 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Subject: Re: dates and measurements (njc) this reminds me of a Seinfeld episode where Elaine's boss ate his candy bar with a knife & fork... >>>Also, Europeans -- or Germans, at least -- consider it childish to eat foods with one's fingers. French fries are eaten with a fork, even at McDonald's (where they offer little plastic two-pronged forks for fries). It took awhile for sandwiches to catch on there, or at least for sandwiches to be eaten as Americans do.<<< ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 17:22:38 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: Re: Judy Collins in Q (sjc) Don't have a lot of Judy, three albums, but the ones I have I really like, especially hard times for lovers. "there ain't no way to stand Kansas when you been to Oz". wow. mack - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 12:49 PM Subject: Re: Judy Collins in Q (sjc) > I have this disc...its a nice compilation. Its a pretty good selection of hits up to (not including) Hard Times For Lovers. Good stuff! > > Reuben ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 18:28:47 -0400 From: Anne Sandstrom Subject: The Gap ad I remember the Gap ad! Joni is wearing a denim jacket that has a bunch of pins (butterflies and other things) on it. Well, I actually (silly me) went to the Gap and bought a jacket just like it and put a bunch of pins on it. I wore that jacket into the ground :-) Talk about advertising doing its job! lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 17:28:55 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: Re: The Gap ad I love that Anne. Mack I remember the Gap ad! Joni is wearing a denim jacket that has a bunch of > pins (butterflies and other things) on it. Well, I actually (silly me) went > to the Gap and bought a jacket just like it and put a bunch of pins on it. I > wore that jacket into the ground :-) > > Talk about advertising doing its job! > > lots of love > Anne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 15:35:54 -0700 From: daricem@sfpl.lib.ca.us Subject: Bay Area (San Francisco, CA)- joni get-together I am gettting some great responses to the idea.... The date Nov 7 is being seriously considered... Please email me and we will get this on Evite... Any visiting JMDLers or those willing to travel a distance ????? Darice ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 15:13:37 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: response to terrorism (njc) >>>and i would only ask you to hold a small place in your understanding for those of us who would like to see the little children of our streets free to play without being hit with smallpox...shane<<< shane, what on earth do you mean by this remark...do you really think i am any different than you in wanting our children to be safe? ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 00:10:03 +0100 From: "Garret" Subject: Patti Smith long- NJC I know there are some Patti Smith fans here on the list, so i hope this is new to you, and ihope the rest of you enjoy it. this was posted on a PS discussion list that i'm on, it's from the november issue of Interview magazine. She seems to have been really shaken by the events of 9/11 and thereafter. I read a release she made just after that date and she sounded in shock. It's long, but is so worth a read. Twin Death 9/11 awoke to the sound of a passenger plane singing its end. awoke to the sensation of spirits - a purgatory of souls ascending the billowing smoke and ash filling the sky at the base of my street. they are gone. the twin posts that anchored our city. an hour before i waved goodbye to my daughter heading for school. i sat on my stoop gazing at them sleepily, disinterested, then returned to my slumber, in the arms of my love. 9/12 awoke to the sound of f-15's and helicopters circling above, drawing me from bed into the street. the towers are gone and the skin of our sky is wounded. they are gone. what form of intelligence has committed this deed? what portrait could i paint? what lines might i draw? from what human memory can i draw from? i can no longer picture them. on my wall are sheets of drawings, abstracting the cross and the motion of resurrection. i remove them and set them away, taping up fresh sheets, returning to the street to think. yellow streamers snake through the streets, wrapping my ankles. as i reach to free myself, i notice the light if different. they way it falls on the buildings and on the back of my hand. momentarily inspired, i pocket some streamers and head back. taping the yellow strip across the white sheets of paper, i find i am unable to draw one line. it should be so simple, child's play to trace their dual silhouette. but i can't. i'm afraid that i won't do it right. i'm afraid that art is useless. they are gone. and all those people. i keep sitting on my stoop looking towards the right, to where they were, thinking they will reappear. a dazed businessman impeccably dressed, save for the white dust covering his shoes, passes. he doesn't seem to know where he is going, but his shoes tell where he has been. i think of picasso and how he reacted to the bombing of guernica. how he translated his pain and horror into a monumental work that moves and teaches us to this day. i return to my wall. if you look at the dust, one can see towers where there are no towers. like the amputee feeling the pain of phantom limbs. i never really liked them. i protested their construction. i was empire loyal, resenting anything that might eclipse her. but through the years, i not only accepted, but also came to love them. it seemed wonderful because there were two. 9/13 awoke to the cries of "usa! usa!" nationalism is brewing. flags are flying. the sight of them fills me with conflict, for ours is a global concern. we are on human time. we are new york. a thoroughly human city. diversity is our pride. humanity is our duty - to offer one's hand, one's bread, one's prayer, and one's human love, with no distinction of faith, party, or nationality. dawn has yet to break and i awoke to sirens and thunder and the rain against the skylight. volunteers' voices carry through the stage set of our streets. driven to be among them, i rise, dress quickly, gather up my required identification and enter into another world. lines of emergency vehicles are exiting, moving south. irrationally attached to our checkpoint, now unmanned, i touch the discarded barricade, draped in rain-soaked steamers. the same yellow streamers that stretch across the white sheets adorning my wall. a face mask hangs on the edge of a long sawhorse that has restricted our street. the still life of the hour. lights cease flashing. the rain dissipates. houston street re-opens. the citizens reclaim sixth avenue. only blocks away, workers mobilize, rescuers continue through the night. men cry out not to other men. i know nothing of the pain of their labors, what their eyes have seen, what their hands have clawed through. jean genet would have known how to glorify those callused hands. i cannot even offer to shake them. i feel conspicuously invisible, dressed so poorly in the pre-dawn of national mourning. when the sun rises i shall dress in white, with respect for the ash veiling our city. the ash of our cremated towers. 9/14 a day of national mourning it is a morning for mourning. we, the people of the city, awaken to the rain. the god of abraham is weeping. allah is weeping. the feet of jesus, and mohammed are wet with tears and the people bow and grasp the damp earth. a day of mourning, and for what shall we mourn? the humanity and the humanity invested in its architecture? the fate of the innocent afghan peoples? shall we mourn our inability as a people to communicate? we are still the children of babel. speaking in divided tongues, unable to comprehend one another. the cries amongst the rubble of that colossal wreck are our own. babel's tower possessed the collective imagination of man. but they unlawfully penetrated the dreams of god. their ability to communicate was confounded to punish them for a lack of humility. perhaps when we humble ourselves as a people, will we communicate again. 9/15 once, in another century, i penned with arrogance, "i am an american artist, and i have no guilt." now i feel compelled to utter, "i am an american artist, and i feel guilty about everything." in spite of this i will not turn away: i will keep working. this i perceive as duty. as i pray to god that in days to come, i will not awake and rise with the blood of the afghan people dripping from my american hands. 9/16 may we ask for wisdom and, in possessing it, the moral courage to exercise it. may we ask to be emptied of hate so to attain harmony. may we strive to comprehend one another. 9/17 for the first time since the attack, i enter a subway. i go as far as broadway & nassau and a walk to liberty street. i have my first view of ground zero. i come here with some reservation, as i do not wish to trespass. but i want some answer to a question vaguely formed. like a child i want to see them, or what is left of them, and say goodbye. i also believe they will tell me something of why i care for them so much, why i miss them, and how they should be remembered. in this pursuit i am ranted this vision: from liberty street i see their skeletal remains, resembling brueghel's portrait of babel. atop them two twisted fingers reach heavenward in the perfect shape of a v. the simple sign for peace. we return to work. our mayor has wisely counseled us to engage in our daily human tasks. i know now why i mourn our towers. because they were young, and symbolized the optimistic strength of our young nation. my wall has twin sheets of paper. there is no image. i have decided that is my portrait. not what we see, but what we don't see and will never see again. two pure white sheets empty as the sky to the right of my stoop at the base of my street. PATTI SMITH ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 18:50:34 EDT From: TimandMaryPowers@aol.com Subject: Re: It arrived! got mine today too. I've read a little bit - looks great so far. I agree that there's too few pictures - I really liked the pictures that were there though. I skipped ahead a bit. what's this about Geffen being happy if he never talked to Joni again? is that "free man in paris" related, or something else? the only thing I can whine about is that I skimmed over some of the album reviews and Hejira does not seem to get much attention, at least from what I saw. I'm hoping I missed part of the Hejira discussion, because the part I saw was only about 2 pages. Mary People hurry by so quickly Don't they hear the melodies In the chiming and the clicking And the laughing harmonies - - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 18:52:17 EDT From: TimandMaryPowers@aol.com Subject: Re: It arrived! got mine today too. I've read a little bit - looks great so far. I agree that there's too few pictures - I really liked the pictures that were there though. I skipped ahead a bit. what's this about Geffen being happy if he never talked to Joni again? is that "free man in paris" related, or something else? the only thing I can whine about is that I skimmed over some of the album reviews and Hejira does not seem to get much attention, at least from what I saw. I'm hoping I missed part of the Hejira discussion, because the part I saw was only about 2 pages. Mary People hurry by so quickly Don't they hear the melodies In the chiming and the clicking And the laughing harmonies - - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 19:16:03 EDT From: Relayer211@aol.com Subject: Re: Judy Collins in Q (sjc) In a message dated 10/15/01 6:26:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, courtandspark@earthlink.net writes: << Don't have a lot of Judy, three albums, but the ones I have I really like, especially hard times for lovers. "there ain't no way to stand Kansas when you been to Oz". wow. mack >> That's interesting. It's generally considered her worst album believe. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 00:45:04 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: US/IRA (njc) I am not an expert but here goes: Hundreda of years ago Britain invaded Eire(the proper name for Southern Ireland). At some point(i think the beginning of the 1900's) eire beacme independant but not Northern Ireland. Norhtern Ireland is Britain. The people who live there are British and the majority want to saty that way. Some irish from southern irleand think Irleand(eire) should be united as a whole country again. Hence all the trouble. I can see the points form both sides. The North tends to be Protestant and Eire is a Catholic country. Dolphie Bush wrote: > Colin, thanks for the post. I thought about privating you but figure this > will be educational for all. What is Eire? > I am not wholly sure about where I stand about the issue, as I said, and not > sure Britain should butt out. Why is Britain there and what is their > reticence to back out of Ireland? I guess what I am trying to ask, is why > does Britan what to be there? Is it because, like you wrote, most of the > citizens want them there? Is it economics? Or a national type thing such > as when the Union refused to allow the South to secede from the Union? > Guess I should just get a book but I want the perspective of someone who > lives there, who knows what is going on. thanks, > mack > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "colin" > To: "Dolphie Bush" > Cc: "joni" > Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 3:45 PM > Subject: Re: US/IRA (njc) > > > I agree with you that Britain should hand Northern Ireland back to Eire. > > However, the majority of the population of Northern Ireland disagree > strongly. > > > > Both sides have their terrorist factions. Both sides bomb and shoot. > > It is very much seen as Catholic versus Protestant thing. > > Recently we have has Protestants harassing young schoolchildren on their > way to > > school(primary-5-11 yrolds) becaus they are Ctaholic and walk to scholl > thru a > > Protestant area. Catholics do equally wicked things. > > Unfortunately neither church does much to condemn it. Catholic priests > have > > officate at IRA funerals(masked gunmen giving the heroes salute etc). The > > Catholic church falls short of condemning the terrorists. > > Then we have Ian Paisley(rev) who is like Falwell only rabid and > Protestant. > > > > The sitaution ahs been going on for hundreads of years-ever since Britain > took > > it from the Irish. > > > > Dolphie Bush wrote: > > > > > I first heard about the Irish and the conflict in Northern Ireland back > in > > > the days of Bernadette Devlin. Too young, too disinterested, or too > > > involved in my own life at the time to pay much attention. I do > remember > > > that however she was portrayed, at least to me, made her out as a > heroine of > > > sorts, a rebel, someone fighting against the hand of oppression. Now, > years > > > later, and with much more information to go on, I still am not > completely > > > content with what I know. I have formed opinions, of course, from > newspaper > > > articles and reports, television, and movies. At times have felt rather > > > sorry for the northern Irish and their plight and have wondered why the > > > British don't just get out of Ireland and mind their own business. At > other > > > times I have felt that they were vicious brutes, murderers, and thugs > who > > > were killing innocent Brits. It all seems so far away and unreal to me, > in > > > my life, and have never pondered the issue to any great degree. Not > trying > > > to be the least bit inflammatory here. Just curious and would be very > > > interested in hearing the facts from not only Brits but the Irish. > > > > > > Mack > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Kakki" > > > To: > > > Cc: > > > Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 2:07 PM > > > Subject: Re: US/IRA (njc) > > > > > > > Jacky wrote: > > > > > > > > > I think you are taking this too personally, Kakki. > > > > > > > > Because the original statements were so blanket "Americans support the > > > IRA." > > > > As an American I did take it personally. > > > > > > > > >We are talking about governments here. > > > > > > > > But the U.S. government does not support the IRA and never has. > > > > > > > > >In the UK we have lived with IRA terrorism for many >years which, > > > perhaps, > > > > hasn't had much coverage in the >US press. > > > > > > > > No, we have always had much coverage when IRA terrorism has struck in > the > > > > U.K. But I haven't seen many articles here in the U.S. saying that we > are > > > > supporting it or providing examples of who is supporting it. I think > most > > > > Americans don't pay much attention to it, not because they are > callous, > > > but > > > > because the U.S. is a big complex country with so many of its own > problems > > > > that we tend to primarily focus on. > > > > > > > > >You can say that to me and I will agree with you and I >will not be > upset > > > > by it at all because, although I live in a >democracy, I am one small > > > voice > > > > with no influence. > > > > > > > > I thought about this some more and you know it is exactly because we > are > > > > free democracies that these terrorist and subversive, hateful groups > often > > > > flourish. Not that I am advocating less freedom, but many of the > > > democratic > > > > countries have bent over backwards for many years to allow the hate > groups > > > > "free speech" and tolerance of any viewpoint, no matter how hideous, > that > > > > there has been a huge downside in their going to the limit in raising > > > funds > > > > and using the "tolerance" and freedom against the very people who are > > > > providing it for them. A well-known example here is allowing Nazi > groups > > > to > > > > have a parade in the predominately Jewish city of Skokie, Ill. > However, > > > > there are more insidious groups at work in the U.S. who provide a fake > > > cover > > > > for their fundraising to lure in naive people. I can imagine that > some > > > > connected with the IRA would no doubt put up a donation box in > Catholic > > > > churches in the U.S. asking only for money "for the poor orphans of > > > Northern > > > > Ireland." Many people, unfortunately are just not savvy or educated > > > enough > > > > to suspect it may be really going to the IRA and that they are being > > > duped. > > > > This same type of con game goes on in the U.S. with many other > subversive > > > > groups and that is well-documented. There have already been reports > of > > > some > > > > groups asking for money "for the poor chiildren of Afghanistan" and > found > > > > that it was a complete front for people actually raising money for the > > > > terrorists. Much of the current anti-war movement in the U.S. is > being > > > > directly orchestrated by radical socialist and Marxist groups who are > > > openly > > > > and actively against Americans' way of life. This is not some > right-wing > > > > rant, either - I learned about it from another anti-war group who is > > > trying > > > > to distinguish and separate themselves from the anti-American > subversive > > > > groups. > > > > > > > > This is all why we must all try to stand united in eliminating > terrorist > > > > groups and not let ourselves fall prey to those who are duping us and > > > trying > > > > to divide and dilute our resolve, IMO. > > > > > > > > Kakki > > > > -- > > bw > > colin > > DAK,BRO GC, 950i, 940,860,864,890, 260,Silver 830,860, 580 and 270, Passap > 6000, > > Duo80. > > > > colin@tantra-apso.com > > http://www.tantra-apso.com - -- bw colin DAK,BRO GC, 950i, 940,860,864,890, 260,Silver 830,860, 580 and 270, Passap 6000, Duo80. colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 00:47:04 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: the new california domestic partners bill (NJC) > "the ability to make medical decisions in the hospital, to receive > health benefits, to adopt a partner's child, and will property to a surviving > partner." > > I think this is great, but then again, maybe I need to reassess my moral > foundations. > > Congratulations, California. This is great news. another step toward equality. Thanks for sharing Bob. > > > --Bob - -- bw colin DAK,BRO GC, 950i, 940,860,864,890, 260,Silver 830,860, 580 and 270, Passap 6000, Duo80. colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 20:11:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: New warning (NJC) - --- "Lori R. Fye" wrote: > Don't go to the bathroom on October 28th. CIA > intelligence reports > that a major plot is planned for that day. Lori, this is priceless - it's so good to see some humour in this situation - I love bleak humour! Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 20:12:59 EDT From: TimandMaryPowers@aol.com Subject: Re: US/IRA (njc) Colin, I think your history left a few things out. Anyone reading that history would have no idea why the northern irish are so pissed off and why they hate each other so much. some history from the BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/troubles/origins/origins.shtml Here's how I would summarize it. England invaded Ireland centuries ago. Since then, different political factions have struggled for control and Catholics and Protestants have both managed to torture and kill each other all too often. The same bloody struggle between Catholicism and Protestantism that got resolved in England - and most of Europe - never got solved in Northern Ireland. There have been so many atrocities on both sides that now each side can point to its victims and demonize the other side. So the killing continues. The English govt. historically is guilty of terrible things, such taking food out of the country at gunpoint during the potato famine, while millions starved (1 million dead, another million left the country, in a country with a population of 8 million). Racism and brutal anti-Catholic policies fueled this. This is IMO rightly called genocide - and it's how many of us ended up in America and other places, because our ancestors fled. Still, Ireland is a perfect example of how the atrocities of yesterday don't justify hating innocent people today. The English today are not guilty of anything, and are sometimes victims of IRA fanatics. It's a perfect example of what goes wrong when you appeal to emotion rather than logic, demonize people for what (a few) of their ancestors did, and use past atrocities as an excuse to kill people. I think England would love to get out of Northern Ireland if they could, but it's based on a democratic vote, and the majority of the Northern Ireland people would vote to stay with England. Well, then why doesn't the IRA just move to Southern Ireland, which is independent? Because they are too damned stubborn and busy nursing their grievances, when they're not busy killing innocent people. Same for the Protestant terrorists, who could move to England. Pathologically stubborn people who don't know the meaning of the word 'compromise' if you ask me. Northern Ireland - in my cynical moments I think its motto should read - 'the sane people are long gone. No one left but us fanatics'. I know that's not true, but geez, I sure wouldn't live there. Mary People hurry by so quickly Don't they hear the melodies In the chiming and the clicking And the laughing harmonies - - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 20:13:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: New warning (NJC) - --- SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > <> > > And I saw the same thing, Lori, and in an e-mail no > less so it REALLY must be true! Plus I think > Nostradamus predicted it! :~D > Or maybe it was that Tolkien fella. Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 19:18:00 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: Re: Judy Collins in Q njc > That's interesting. It's generally considered her worst album believe. Interesting is right. It is a great album. Starmaker, Dorothy, the Promise theme, Ice Castles theme, and I Remember Sky. that last tune is unforgettable. And to top it all off, Judy's rearside, which I find very nice. Not even counting the fact that two of these covers were Missy covers originally but Judy does a great job on them. Have True Stories too. Love it too. Song for Martin is great and Secret Gardens is almost perfect. Found her 5th album and Recollections at garage sales amd real fond of them too but a little too folksy for me. Don't really dig the extreme folk sound. Looking at the songwriters and see that Sondheim wrote I remember sky. Someone here is a major Sondheim fan. Henderson, I think, if memory serves me correctly. Didn't think that Judy ever wrote any songs but found out that this is incorrect too. Looking at them I see "cook with honey" which I always found melted off the mind when listening to it. I used to have a picture in my mind of the kind of woman that this was, whether this is an accurate reading of the song or not, and thought of her as some kind of earth mother; fine, reserved, thoughtful, resilient, caring, intense, etc. Since coming here have found women who make me see them as this kind of woman and can see them inside the lyrics and the music. Anne, Ashara. so glad i am here. and more glad that you all are there. mack ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 19:19:25 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: Re: US/IRA (njc) thanks colin, that sheds some light. mack - ----- Original Message ----- From: "colin" To: "Dolphie Bush" Cc: "joni" Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 6:45 PM Subject: Re: US/IRA (njc) > I am not an expert but here goes: > Hundreda of years ago Britain invaded Eire(the proper name for Southern > Ireland). > At some point(i think the beginning of the 1900's) eire beacme independant but > not Northern Ireland. Norhtern Ireland is Britain. > The people who live there are British and the majority want to saty that way. > Some irish from southern irleand think Irleand(eire) should be united as a whole > country again. > Hence all the trouble. > I can see the points form both sides. > The North tends to be Protestant and Eire is a Catholic country. > > Dolphie Bush wrote: > > > Colin, thanks for the post. I thought about privating you but figure this > > will be educational for all. What is Eire? > > I am not wholly sure about where I stand about the issue, as I said, and not > > sure Britain should butt out. Why is Britain there and what is their > > reticence to back out of Ireland? I guess what I am trying to ask, is why > > does Britan what to be there? Is it because, like you wrote, most of the > > citizens want them there? Is it economics? Or a national type thing such > > as when the Union refused to allow the South to secede from the Union? > > Guess I should just get a book but I want the perspective of someone who > > lives there, who knows what is going on. thanks, > > mack > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "colin" > > To: "Dolphie Bush" > > Cc: "joni" > > Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 3:45 PM > > Subject: Re: US/IRA (njc) > > > > > I agree with you that Britain should hand Northern Ireland back to Eire. > > > However, the majority of the population of Northern Ireland disagree > > strongly. > > > > > > Both sides have their terrorist factions. Both sides bomb and shoot. > > > It is very much seen as Catholic versus Protestant thing. > > > Recently we have has Protestants harassing young schoolchildren on their > > way to > > > school(primary-5-11 yrolds) becaus they are Ctaholic and walk to scholl > > thru a > > > Protestant area. Catholics do equally wicked things. > > > Unfortunately neither church does much to condemn it. Catholic priests > > have > > > officate at IRA funerals(masked gunmen giving the heroes salute etc). The > > > Catholic church falls short of condemning the terrorists. > > > Then we have Ian Paisley(rev) who is like Falwell only rabid and > > Protestant. > > > > > > The sitaution ahs been going on for hundreads of years-ever since Britain > > took > > > it from the Irish. > > > > > > Dolphie Bush wrote: > > > > > > > I first heard about the Irish and the conflict in Northern Ireland back > > in > > > > the days of Bernadette Devlin. Too young, too disinterested, or too > > > > involved in my own life at the time to pay much attention. I do > > remember > > > > that however she was portrayed, at least to me, made her out as a > > heroine of > > > > sorts, a rebel, someone fighting against the hand of oppression. Now, > > years > > > > later, and with much more information to go on, I still am not > > completely > > > > content with what I know. I have formed opinions, of course, from > > newspaper > > > > articles and reports, television, and movies. At times have felt rather > > > > sorry for the northern Irish and their plight and have wondered why the > > > > British don't just get out of Ireland and mind their own business. At > > other > > > > times I have felt that they were vicious brutes, murderers, and thugs > > who > > > > were killing innocent Brits. It all seems so far away and unreal to me, > > in > > > > my life, and have never pondered the issue to any great degree. Not > > trying > > > > to be the least bit inflammatory here. Just curious and would be very > > > > interested in hearing the facts from not only Brits but the Irish. > > > > > > > > Mack > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Kakki" > > > > To: > > > > Cc: > > > > Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 2:07 PM > > > > Subject: Re: US/IRA (njc) > > > > > > > > > Jacky wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I think you are taking this too personally, Kakki. > > > > > > > > > > Because the original statements were so blanket "Americans support the > > > > IRA." > > > > > As an American I did take it personally. > > > > > > > > > > >We are talking about governments here. > > > > > > > > > > But the U.S. government does not support the IRA and never has. > > > > > > > > > > >In the UK we have lived with IRA terrorism for many >years which, > > > > perhaps, > > > > > hasn't had much coverage in the >US press. > > > > > > > > > > No, we have always had much coverage when IRA terrorism has struck in > > the > > > > > U.K. But I haven't seen many articles here in the U.S. saying that we > > are > > > > > supporting it or providing examples of who is supporting it. I think > > most > > > > > Americans don't pay much attention to it, not because they are > > callous, > > > > but > > > > > because the U.S. is a big complex country with so many of its own > > problems > > > > > that we tend to primarily focus on. > > > > > > > > > > >You can say that to me and I will agree with you and I >will not be > > upset > > > > > by it at all because, although I live in a >democracy, I am one small > > > > voice > > > > > with no influence. > > > > > > > > > > I thought about this some more and you know it is exactly because we > > are > > > > > free democracies that these terrorist and subversive, hateful groups > > often > > > > > flourish. Not that I am advocating less freedom, but many of the > > > > democratic > > > > > countries have bent over backwards for many years to allow the hate > > groups > > > > > "free speech" and tolerance of any viewpoint, no matter how hideous, > > that > > > > > there has been a huge downside in their going to the limit in raising > > > > funds > > > > > and using the "tolerance" and freedom against the very people who are > > > > > providing it for them. A well-known example here is allowing Nazi > > groups > > > > to > > > > > have a parade in the predominately Jewish city of Skokie, Ill. > > However, > > > > > there are more insidious groups at work in the U.S. who provide a fake > > > > cover > > > > > for their fundraising to lure in naive people. I can imagine that > > some > > > > > connected with the IRA would no doubt put up a donation box in > > Catholic > > > > > churches in the U.S. asking only for money "for the poor orphans of > > > > Northern > > > > > Ireland." Many people, unfortunately are just not savvy or educated > > > > enough > > > > > to suspect it may be really going to the IRA and that they are being > > > > duped. > > > > > This same type of con game goes on in the U.S. with many other > > subversive > > > > > groups and that is well-documented. There have already been reports > > of > > > > some > > > > > groups asking for money "for the poor chiildren of Afghanistan" and > > found > > > > > that it was a complete front for people actually raising money for the > > > > > terrorists. Much of the current anti-war movement in the U.S. is > > being > > > > > directly orchestrated by radical socialist and Marxist groups who are > > > > openly > > > > > and actively against Americans' way of life. This is not some > > right-wing > > > > > rant, either - I learned about it from another anti-war group who is > > > > trying > > > > > to distinguish and separate themselves from the anti-American > > subversive > > > > > groups. > > > > > > > > > > This is all why we must all try to stand united in eliminating > > terrorist > > > > > groups and not let ourselves fall prey to those who are duping us and > > > > trying > > > > > to divide and dilute our resolve, IMO. > > > > > > > > > > Kakki > > > > > > -- > > > bw > > > colin > > > DAK,BRO GC, 950i, 940,860,864,890, 260,Silver 830,860, 580 and 270, Passap > > 6000, > > > Duo80. > > > > > > colin@tantra-apso.com > > > http://www.tantra-apso.com > > -- > bw > colin > DAK,BRO GC, 950i, 940,860,864,890, 260,Silver 830,860, 580 and 270, Passap 6000, > Duo80. > > colin@tantra-apso.com > http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 20:24:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: njc - --- "jlamadoo, home account" wrote: > If bin Lauden uses a microphone and a tv camera to > communicate, isn't he > breaking his own rules about eschewing technology?? > > "What up with that?" > Ha! don't do as I do - do as I say! Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 19:32:24 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: Re: US/IRA (njc) Thanks bunches Mary, I learned much there I did not know. Especially that southern Ireland is independent. How did I miss that? Mack - ----- Original Message ----- From: Cc: Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 7:12 PM Subject: Re: US/IRA (njc) > Colin, > > I think your history left a few things out. Anyone reading that history > would have no idea why the northern irish are so pissed off and why they hate > each other so much. > > some history from the BBC: > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/troubles/origins/origins.shtml > > Here's how I would summarize it. England invaded Ireland centuries ago. > Since then, different political factions have struggled for control and > Catholics and Protestants have both managed to torture and kill each other > all too often. The same bloody struggle between Catholicism and > Protestantism that got resolved in England - and most of Europe - never got > solved in Northern Ireland. There have been so many atrocities on both sides > that now each side can point to its victims and demonize the other side. So > the killing continues. > > The English govt. historically is guilty of terrible things, such taking food > out of the country at gunpoint during the potato famine, while millions > starved (1 million dead, another million left the country, in a country with > a population of 8 million). Racism and brutal anti-Catholic policies fueled > this. This is IMO rightly called genocide - and it's how many of us ended up > in America and other places, because our ancestors fled. Still, Ireland is a > perfect example of how the atrocities of yesterday don't justify hating > innocent people today. The English today are not guilty of anything, and are > sometimes victims of IRA fanatics. It's a perfect example of what goes wrong > when you appeal to emotion rather than logic, demonize people for what (a > few) of their ancestors did, and use past atrocities as an excuse to kill > people. > > I think England would love to get out of Northern Ireland if they could, but > it's based on a democratic vote, and the majority of the Northern Ireland > people would vote to stay with England. Well, then why doesn't the IRA just > move to Southern Ireland, which is independent? Because they are too damned > stubborn and busy nursing their grievances, when they're not busy killing > innocent people. Same for the Protestant terrorists, who could move to > England. Pathologically stubborn people who don't know the meaning of the > word 'compromise' if you ask me. > > Northern Ireland - in my cynical moments I think its motto should read - 'the > sane people are long gone. No one left but us fanatics'. I know that's not > true, but geez, I sure wouldn't live there. > > Mary > > People hurry by so quickly > Don't they hear the melodies > In the chiming and the clicking > And the laughing harmonies > - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 20:41:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: US/IRA (njc) - --- Dolphie Bush wrote: > At > times have felt rather > sorry for the northern Irish and their plight and > have wondered why the > British don't just get out of Ireland and mind their > own business. At other > times I have felt that they were vicious brutes, > murderers, and thugs who > were killing innocent Brits. The Brits stay there, as I understand it, to keep the Protestants and Catholics from murdering one another. Also because they pretty much started the whole thing by taking over Ireland way back when (going back centuries, but mostly during the Tudor era) by taking away the Irish people's land and rights. Because the Irish were Catholic and the English were Protestant, it's a religious war in one sense, but really an ethnic war (as far as I'm concerned) that uses religion as the excuse - really, how can you tell by looking at someone whether they're a Protestant or a Catholic? I think the British might be perfectly happy to get the heck out at this point but that they feel responsible for ensuring that even more bloody war and riots don't break out. Someone, please correct me if I don't get this - I'm not a historian but, as a descendant of both Irish and English people, jeeeeez, can't everyone just *get along*! Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 20:49:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: US/IRA (njc) - --- colin wrote: > The money raised for the NRA was thru NORAID and > others. Nothing hidden. > MILLIONS were raised. No little boxes shaken in > churches. Millions were not > raised in ignorance of the cause. Colin, what the heck is Noraid? NEver heard of it! A word to the wise - if you're going to donate to any charity, make sure it's registered through whatever gov't agency regulates these in your area - there are plenty of scam "charities" around - if they don't have a registered charity number, I would just tell them, "Thanks, I gave at the office". I know that Greenpeace (here in Canada anyway) chooses not to register itself as a charity because they don't want to be influenced in any way (so they say) by the government and they feel they would be if they allowed donations to their group to be tax-deductible. But I digress. I think to say that "Americans" support the IRA is just plain silly. There are individuals who do, in America and I'm sure in Canada as well (most of these people wouldn't admit it to you or me, though). These are the misguided souls who have probably never set foot on Irish soil, but who think of themselves as sons of Tara or some such nonsense and who have this ridiculous, pseudo-romantic notion that what they're doing is "right" and "for the cause." Always easy to say when you're miles from the conflict. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who thinks the IRA are patriots (to Ireland) is either misguided or just plain stupid. A terrorist is a terrorist is a terrorist - they are out for no one but themselves, everyone else be damned. Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 21:06:10 EDT From: AsharaJM@aol.com Subject: Re: Judy Collins in Q njc In a message dated 10/15/2001 8:21:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, courtandspark@earthlink.net writes: > Since coming here have found > women who make me see them as this kind of woman and can see them inside the > lyrics and the music. Anne, Ashara. Mack, what a sweet, sweet compliment! And.....it happens to be my FAVORITE Judy Collins album as well. Hugs, Ashara ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 22:14:59 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: blue moon and harvest moon njc from astrology.com: ''This year, the month of October plays host to two very special Full Moons. The first is October 2nd's Harvest Moon, and the second is the Blue Moon of October 31. Occurring near the Autumnal Equinox, the Harvest Moon originally served as a guide to farmers -- reminding them that it was time to reap what they had sown in the previous season. A Blue Moon is the name given to the second Full Moon that appears in a calendar month. This event is only significant because of its rarity; there hasn't been a Blue Moon in over two years.'' so that's a blue moon. wallyK ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 17:48:20 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: US/IRA (njc) Colin, Look, I am sorry and I am not playing any game. I asked that you not direct *arguments* to me. I should have said *challenges* to me that sounded to me like you thought I knew more than I was expressing or was being disingenous. I did say I didn't mind hearing more about what Americans have done to support the IRA. I just would prefer a reasonable discussion without being thrown some of this stuff that a lot of Americans, including myself don't understand. I don't know what NORAID is, for example. It sounded like NORAD but that's one of the U.S. secret facilities in Colorado or somewhere where they hide out the government in case of a nuke attack. You have made the premise that Americans support the IRA - I want to know why, especially after the attack I experienced the other night from someone from Britain. I don't take everything written as a personal attack, although it's challenging for me here sometimes to have to restate myself repeatedly as my words are picked apart. Regardless of that, I am curious as to the British viewpoint on this. It seems like people in the U.K. may have more information than the ordinary American about the millions of dollars sent by seemingly official sources in the U.S. to the IRA. Since it looks like there are others here also interested in the discussion, maybe I can learn more about it without commenting or asking any questions. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 20:41:12 -0600 From: "shane mattison" Subject: our children (njc) this is the kind of evil crime we're up against. CNN reports: <<-- Child of ABC News employee in New York tested positive for skin anthrax exposure. Details soon.>> you may have noticed that tom brokaw was also targeted. yup, i listen to brokaw, vince, and i guess i'll be listening to him even more now... shane ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 23:19:16 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Irish stuff and Brendan Behan (njc) In a message dated 10/15/01 7:43:25 PM, anima_rising@yahoo.ca writes: << Also because they pretty much started the whole thing by taking over Ireland way back when (going back centuries, but mostly during the Tudor era) by taking away the Irish people's land and rights. >> Some random thoughts on this thread . . . The British also made it illegal to speak or teach the Irish language (which I have been told is inaccurately called 'Gaelic' by many Americans). When I went to Ireland for the first time at the age of 40, it was odd hearing little kids in the west of Ireland speak the language of my ancestors and realizing that it was as foreign to me as Chinese or Swahili. How sad to be a stranger to such a major part of one's heritage. (But in true Irish fashion, the only Irish-language phrase I ever learned from my grandfather means "Kiss my ass!") On the plus side, when the Irish Diaspora happened and the Irish ended up in the US, Canada, Australia and other English-speaking places, their ability to speak English gave them an advantage over other immigrant groups -- and they ran with it. For many years Irish Americans were the most successful immigrant group in the US, although I recently read that Japanese Americans now have that distinction. Years ago, the Irish writer Brendan Behan was interviewed on American TV (I think it was on The Dick Cavett Show). The interviewer asked him how he and other Irish writers felt about writing in English, a language which was basically forced on the Irish people. Behan thought for a moment and answered, "They gave us a language. And we gave them a literature." Also, for one Irish woman's view about the situation between Ireland and England, check out Sinead O'Connor's "Famine" from "Universal Mother," a great CD. "Famine" combines hip hop, Eleanor Rigby and politics into a very compelling, although very sad, song. --Bob ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2001 #487 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?