From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2001 #464 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Friday, October 5 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 464 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: ooh, low blow not to osama but to women! NJC ["Sharon L. Buffington" ] men and women NJC [Yael Harlap ] [Fwd: just venting (njc)] [dsk ] re: Colin's description of abuse NJC [Yael Harlap ] Re: just venting (njc)] ["J. R. Mills" ] Re: Wayne Shorter in London [FredNow@aol.com] Brushes w/ celebrities: NJC (unfortunately) [Tyler Hewitt ] re: the 'joke' about bin laden NJC [Mags ] Checking Out of My Blue Motel Room ... [Don Rowe ] Re: Gillian Welch (NJC) [FMYFL@aol.com] Subject: ooh, low blow not to osama but to women! NJC ["Kate Bennett" ] Tina Louise (NJC) ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Checking Out of My Blue Motel Room ... ["blonde in the bleachers" ] abuse njc ["Kate Bennett" ] emotional abuse njc (very long) ["Kate Bennett" ] On second-guesssing Les (NJC) [Murphycopy@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 09:16:55 -0500 From: "Sharon L. Buffington" Subject: Re: ooh, low blow not to osama but to women! NJC Wally Kairuz wrote: > but i disagree that being a woman under the taliban is > still better than being a dead woman. bondage can be worse than death. > wallyK Not if you have family you love and want to be with...you know Wally, one holds out hope...look at our families in slavery, concentration or internment camps. Hope for change...hope that wiser and more powerful forces will intervene to free us bondage is ever present. Love and peace.......Sharon NLT: Taj Mahal "Cheatin' On You" (although I would neva neva cheat on you Wally) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 22:32:50 -0400 From: Yael Harlap Subject: men and women NJC Ron said: > revised equations: > > man with no balls <> woman > > man with no balls = man with no balls = contemptible coward I see what you're saying, Ron, but, to reframe it, I believe that historically speaking, the man with no balls thing does intend to convey the message that the man is "emasculated" which means his manliness is taken away, and because we only recognize two genders, that means he is feminized. I mean, it isn't too big a stretch when you consider that the biggest insults to men are always those insults that portray them as womanly, feminine, etc. Sexism intersecting with heterosexism. What a great world we live in. . - -Yael ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 10:58:41 -0400 From: dsk Subject: [Fwd: just venting (njc)] Brian Gross wrote: > > damn evil bitch reeks arrogance > she hurts everyone around > > brei > -- > After twenty-three years you'd think I could find > A way to let you know somehow > That I want to see your smiling face > Forty-five years from now. > > --Stan Rogers Brian sent that message privately to me on Sunday night. It's not surprising to me that Marcel's name is involved. It's the kind of thing he'd write. I asked Brian for some explanation and have received nothing so I can only assume this is what he and Marcel both think about me. From this and things people have written to the list, it looks like Marcel's been doing some work in the background campaigning to get back on the list and bad mouthing and telling lies about me. To which I say, go right ahead, just keep your insults out of my personal mailbox. Anybody else that feels inspired to let me know such stuff, send it directly to the list. I have plenty of other things to worry about these days. Since the details about who this has gone to won't show up when I forward this, here's a copy of the header info on the message Brian sent me: Subject: just venting (njc) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 22:35:42 -0400 From: Brian Gross To: Debra Shea CC: Marcel Deste , briangross@rocketmail.com Yep, I'm angry now. I may have more to say about this later. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 23:09:11 -0400 From: Yael Harlap Subject: re: Colin's description of abuse NJC Hey all- I think my e-mail sort of started that, so I wanted to clarify my position a bit. I didn't intend to say that I disbelieved the abused in this situation, whether it be Colin, Deb Shea, whoever was at the receiving end of the stick of Marcel's emails. I do believe that those emails were abusive, the pattern of them, and their content. And people who were feeling the abuse should speak out about it. And should be believed. On the other side, I also believe in rehabilitation. I think that simply vilifying Marcel and chucking him off the list, and ending it all there, isn't a great way to end the situation. I support Les in his decision to do what he chose to do. And it seems to me that Marcel probably needed to get booted in order to really understand that lots of people felt his behavior was truly unacceptable. But I also have talked to Marcel about *my* having been upset about my email communication with him, and my opinion, what I've concluded, is that he did not perceive his behavior as abusive, nor did he really understand why I did. And why others do. I think he fell into an unhealthy pattern of interaction - which had the effect of making a bunch of people hate him, and then of course I think he probably felt he was being hated simply for expressing dissenting opinions. Which of course was not the situation. Now, as for me, I really was bummed that it didn't seem like there was any way for Marcel to learn from the experience if he never was "enlightened" as to why a lot of people were upset with him. Very strongly upset. And since he is still out there in this world, and on the internet, I personally believe that life would be better for him and those who encounter him if he were to learn better ways of expressing his dissenting opinions than bombarding people with persistent off-list condescending and insulting emails - he could learn to communicate without abuse. I mean, I believe that criminals who do things much more serious than that should be rehabilitated so that they can become fully functioning community members! I am not one who wants criminals held in a pen for the rest of their lives so that society can feel more comfortable without them. They do have to learn to change their behaviors. And when they do change their behaviors, they should be accepted back into society as full-functioning members. Right? Not discriminated against in hiring. Not kept from renting apartments. Etc. So I think, in parallel, though Marcel didn't commit a crime, per se, he did stuff that we as a community (or at least many of us, including Les who is the ultimate decision-maker) feel is unacceptable behavior. Behavior unacceptable enough that it requires top-down action. That's fine. But personally, I wish that we had (or someone had, or Les had, or something) outlined a way that Marcel - or anyone kicked off the list - could come back to the list after a certain time with conditional membership. And at the same time, maybe Marcel could have had a "buddy" who would be in offlist communication with him to help make sure that he doesn't post abusively to others. And that buddy would automatically be cc'ed or forwarded off-list posts, or whatever. I'm sure Marcel would feel diminished by that situation, and would probably reject it, because let's face it, it is kind of humiliating. But I think maybe we could have found a system that is less humiliating but would accomplish the same purpose. And in fact, maybe instead of it being imposed as a punishment it could be framed as a helping tool. I mean, hey, you're back, you've said you will change your patterns of responding to people and be careful about it, and here is someone who is volunteering to help out for a little while to raise the warning flags for you until you recognize them easily yourself. So I am not unsympathetic to those abused in this situation. I'm not! I am very EMpathtetic, in fact. But that doesn't mean I want to be blind to the fact that the perpetrator is also a human being. And can change. And in fact, should be offered help in changing. I am not supporting Marcel's behavior in those situations. But I do think about both sides of it. And my beliefs about human beings and societies does not allow me to feel good about anyone being booted from the list without a delineation of what steps s/he could take to be embraced as a member once again. And now that I think about it, because I am willing to speak up now, on Marcel's behalf, I should also have spoken on earlier, on Colin and Debra et al's behalf, when I agreed with their basic claims that abuse was going on. I apologize for not speaking out at that time. I did think what was going on was wrong. But that doesn't change the fact that I sort of think the situation now is wrong, too. On the other hand I do feel conflicted about the notion that a list member would feel uncomfortable and want to leave the list were Marcel to come back, the way a battered woman wouldn't want her abuser back in her house, even if he were to say "hey hon, I've been rehabilitated! can I come back now?" But I guess the question is, is the list equivalent to the house or to the larger community? Are we family all, or are we a neighborhood? I leave that open... - -Yael ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 08:26:10 -0700 From: "J. R. Mills" Subject: Re: just venting (njc)] I don't blame you at all for being angry, Debra. I'm horrified. There can be no satisfactory explanation for what Brian sent you, in my opinion. This behavior just sickens me. I am so sorry you've been subjected to this kind of psychosis. I hope you won't let it bring you down. - -Julius > Subject: just venting (njc) > Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 22:35:42 -0400 > From: Brian Gross > To: Debra Shea > CC: Marcel Deste , briangross@rocketmail.com > > Yep, I'm angry now. I may have more to say about this later. > > Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 11:44:15 EDT From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: Wayne Shorter in London >"Raffaele Malanga" >I just bought tickets for the concert Wayne Shorter will do at the Royal >Festival Hall in London on 10 Nov. He'll be playing along with Brian Blade, >John Patitucci and Danilo Perez. >Now, my feeling/wish/hope is that being November, when Joni should be in >London recording her new songs, she might pop on stage for some unexpected >guest performance. On the other hand, Shorter and Blade are Joni's current >favourite musicians Most likely Shorter and Blade will be playing on the new record. - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 09:05:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Tyler Hewitt Subject: Brushes w/ celebrities: NJC (unfortunately) Hi I posted a list of quasi-celebs i met when working at Tower Records a few years ago. Here's a few others I've met outside of Tower: Andy Partridge of XTC Fred Schneider of the B-52's Lyle Lovett John Waters Spaulding Grey Philip Glass Joan Baez Don't know if writers are celebrities (I guess Truman Capote was), but I have met a couple: Allen Ginsberg (actually had several short conversations with him over a period of a few years. Once I was in the audience at one of his readings, when he walked in from the rear of the auditorium, he saw me and stopped to chat for a minute before going onstage to read. Margaret Atwood Gary Snyder I shook John Irving's hand once, but it really wasn't much of a meeting. I've also met a few well-known artists, mostly when I was in graduate school. The one who made the most impact was Lorna Simpson, who was very nice, and actually semed to enjoy hanging out with a bunch of grad students talking about art. nothing too exciting, but I tend not to get worked up over celebrities anyways. Far as I'm concerned, they're just people doing their jobs like anyone else. NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 18:13:29 +0100 From: "Marian" Subject: abuseNJC colin wrote: > The abusee gets scapegoated. At the very least > they are made to feel bad, like they are making > a fuss over nothing. In my posts about Marcel, it was not my intention to minimize the experiences of anyone else, but to share my own experience with and impressions of him which were quite different from those of the people who complained about him. I apologize if this offended anyone. I'd really like to know what has been going on. This post from colin saying that the list is not longer a safe place, and the one yesterday from Kate about verbal abuse and the one from Kakki agreeing with her and colin leave me wondering what is going on and who is victimizing whom. Can somebody clue me in here? I'm not very good at reading between the lines! Marian marian@jmdl.com http://www.jmdl.com/guitar/marian/guitar.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 12:17:03 -0400 From: Mags Subject: re: the 'joke' about bin laden NJC Yael, thank you for your thoughts on the post which I sent about bin laden. I need to clear the air as to why I posted this"joke" to the list. First of all, I did not and do not see it as a joke. I find nothing funny about it at all. I did not send it as revenge, retaliation or anything. The reason I did send it was that to me, it was more like a "take a walk in my shoes and see how it really is" kind of sentiment. And before I get jumped on for saying that, I hereby admit that I could not possibly know what it is like for women in Afghanistan (or anywhere else for that matter) beyond what I have experienced, learned, read, studied, listened to, cried about. Know that my heart does ache for them still. Alas, I digress. I sent it as per my subject line suggested: food for thought. I am very sensitive to the issues that women face world wide in general and in this case, women who reside in Afghanistan in particular. I would never joke about such things. Ever. That email sent me on a journey of wondering what if bin laden was thrust into the same situation he helped to create? Would he experience first hand what the Taliban dishes out to women in Afghanistan and beyond deep into their every single day existence? For me, these are questions that need no answers, they bubble up to the surface of the rhetorical, theoretical pool. And to me, the "what if" is no joke. respectfully, Mags. - -- And this loving is a drawing close, a tuning in, an opening. Until one perfect moment; but how can it be expressed? A receiving, an enfolding as I cradle you in my arms. Within my heart, within my soul, You are my true love. --Lui Collins - --- _~O / /\_, ___/\ /_ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 09:30:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: Checking Out of My Blue Motel Room ... It's been a good run folks, really it has. I've enjoyed my time here on the jmdl, learned a great deal (not the least of which is a deeper appreciation of FTR), had my share of laughs, expanded my collection (Joni & otherwise), and shared many experiences that I know only a group like this would understand and appreciate. I only regret having never been able to attend jonifest, or to meet any of you in person. I'm sure it would have been great. But as it is ... I find myself out of things to say, out of costumes to wear, out of shields to deflect the growing unpleasantness and out of patience with trying. For the last several months now, I've been deleting about 95% of posts unread anyhow ... So it seems time I bid you "adieu" ... and will be leaving the list and riding off into the sunset at the end of the day. I sincerely hope that there will be some of you who will keep in touch, and gladly encourage you to do so. Until such time ... Don Rowe ===== Visit me anytime at http://www.mp3.com/donrowe NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 12:33:25 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: Gillian Welch (NJC) Steve Dulson wrote: << Gillian Welch (along with her partner David Rawlings) has written > some amazingly old-timey sounding songs. She is dialled in to > rural, depression, dust bowl, WWII and fifties America like no > one else. They will knock your socks off live.>> Gillian also sings a couple of songs (along with EmmyLou Harris and Allison Krauss) on the soundtrack to the movie "O Brother Where Art Thou?". It's a great CD and I have to thank some of the listers at Jonifest for the recommendation. NOTE : This is the one CD I own that will make my partner leave the room. LOL Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 09:20:48 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Subject: ooh, low blow not to osama but to women! NJC Hey Yael, You said that very well & Lama took it well. Re: life as an Afghan woman under the Taliban: There is a documentary being shown a lot called Behind the Veil that I recommend everyone see. Life as a woman in Afghanistan is probably worse than anything any of us can imagine. The other part of this documentary is the incredible bravery of the woman journalist who did the piece, & the incredible bravery of the RAWA, an organization of women in Afghanistan... www.rawa.com has more information on what they do & how to help. PS I agree, cyber bully is a much better phrase & very accurate, as it refers to verbal abuse. A lot of my recent research about emotional & verbal abuse defines those doing the abuse as bullys & controllers. Needing to be right, not listening to others, being likeable in public but abusive in private, basically being in a lot of pain but not doing the work to get to the source of the pain. I once had a boss (female) like that. I wish I had known then what I know now. ******************************************* Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 12:47:51 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: Colin's description of abuse NJC Yael Harlap wrote: > > But I also have talked to Marcel about *my* having been upset about my > email communication with him, and my opinion, what I've concluded, is that > he did not perceive his behavior as abusive, nor did he really understand > why I did. And why others do. I think he fell into an unhealthy pattern of > interaction - which had the effect of making a bunch of people hate him, > and then of course I think he probably felt he was being hated simply for > expressing dissenting opinions. Which of course was not the situation. That is not at all the situation and it shocks me that people (not you obviously) think it is. All Marcel had to do was stop sending private emails to people who did not want to receive them. He was never told that he could not post whatever he wanted to on the list. He was not asked to change his opinions or personality or anything else, JUST STOP SENDING PRIVATE EMAILS!!! Very very very very simple request!!! Anyone with any decency would respect such a request even if they didn't understand it. As it describes on the website Kate posted (http://www.verbalabuse.com/) abusers often are not aware of their behavior and when the effects of it are pointed out to them are still unwilling to be responsible for it. Along with the other characteristics of abusers, that describes Marcel's behavior perfectly. Even now he's not willing to take any responsibility for his actions. He apparently is spending all his time thinking I'm the bad guy. His behavior has probably caused him difficulty in every area of his life and yet so far the signs are he's not willing to look at himself for even a second. That is the saddest part to me of all of this. So rehabilitation? There's no indication that that's possible in this case. Please keep in mind that Marcel was asked MANY times to stop sending private email, MANY MANY times, by many people, over a long period of time. Les's decision had to be an excruciating one to make. That people are now second-guessing that adds to the misery of this whole situation. And, believe it or not, I don't hate Marcel, although I certainly don't want any personal contact with him. I'm sad, too, about how it all turned out. That's why it went on for years. I and probably everyone else who was being affected always had the hope that the simple request made of him is something he would respect. For whatever reason, he wasn't willing to do that. That is why he is now off the list, no matter what he's telling you or anyone else, or believing himself. > On the other hand I do feel conflicted about the notion that a list member > would feel uncomfortable and want to leave the list were Marcel to come > back, the way a battered woman wouldn't want her abuser back in her house, > even if he were to say "hey hon, I've been rehabilitated! can I come back > now?" It's not ONE list member. The idea that this is taken to be a battle between me and Marcel, with Colin sometimes involved, is a huge mistake. MANY people have been affected. I've expected that at some point Marcel would be returning, somehow. I imagine it would take about a month before getting an insulting private response to something I'd said on list. The solution for avoiding that is never to post anything, and at times that has been my solution, but then I'm not giving anything to the list and that doesn't feel quite right, and it angers me that my opinion-giving would be controlled in that way. Certainly, saying ANYTHING political could draw fire, privately. The people who are supporting Marcel the most are either relatively new so don't feel the burden of having dealt with this for a very long time, or don't post very often to the list, and rarely or never post anything about politics and, if they do, quickly back down in their opinions. That's perhaps a wise choice in this situation. For me, though, that's not an open discussion, and I thought that's what this list is all about. And after that one private message I'd be gone for all time, with lots of prayers for all the targets that are staying behind. If this grueling time hasn't shown people what's going on, I don't know what would. But I guess the question is, is the list equivalent to the house or > to the larger community? Are we family all, or are we a neighborhood? I > leave that open... I don't know what this is either. I only know I'm not willing to silently take such attacks anymore and don't think anyone else should do that either. For the record, the only people I've ever received nastiness from are Marcel and recently Brian, so two out of 800... not a bad ratio. I'm trying very hard to positively keep the 798 people in mind and forget about the other two. Doing that, though, doesn't make what those two have done ok, especially not if such hateful behavior is allowed to spread. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 09:39:27 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Tina Louise (NJC) OMG Smurphy you almost made me spill my coffee all over the keyboard...LMAO about your little Tina Louise movie... Wally, okay, how about this- you tie with Sharon, Walt & Minnie for your encounter with Maria Callas... ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 13:01:33 -0400 From: "blonde in the bleachers" Subject: Re: Checking Out of My Blue Motel Room ... Maybe in the future, for the future of this list, people who find it necessary to "bid adieu" do it to the people with whom they have the most off list contact, so that I will not have to read the same boring email over and over and over again. I really can't quite put my finger on why people are so willing to jump overboard when this is a JONI MITCHELL Discussion list. Like the tags (njc, sjc, vljc) maybe we should have a tag that is, sg2jmdl (saying goodbye to the joni mitchell discussion list) and then we can opt not to get it. Two members of this list had an hour lunch with the woman for whom we are all here talking about, that is why I read this list, and I don't think on any other list can a group of people who don't know each other get together for a weekend and sing and have fun and actually become friends, and trust each other although they only know each other from daily emails. Yes some of the posts are mean hearted and opinionated but so are some people. Get Over It. >From: Don Rowe >Reply-To: Don Rowe >To: joni@smoe.org >Subject: Checking Out of My Blue Motel Room ... >Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 09:30:30 -0700 (PDT) > >It's been a good run folks, really it has. I've >enjoyed my time here on the jmdl, learned a great deal >(not the least of which is a deeper appreciation of >FTR), had my share of laughs, expanded my collection >(Joni & otherwise), and shared many experiences that I >know only a group like this would understand and >appreciate. > >I only regret having never been able to attend >jonifest, or to meet any of you in person. I'm sure >it would have been great. > >But as it is ... I find myself out of things to say, >out of costumes to wear, out of shields to deflect the >growing unpleasantness and out of patience with >trying. For the last several months now, I've been >deleting about 95% of posts unread anyhow ... > >So it seems time I bid you "adieu" ... and will be >leaving the list and riding off into the sunset at the >end of the day. > >I sincerely hope that there will be some of you who >will keep in touch, and gladly encourage you to do so. > > >Until such time ... > >Don Rowe > >===== >Visit me anytime at http://www.mp3.com/donrowe >NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. >http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 13:33:41 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: Subject: ooh, low blow not to osama but to women! NJC Kate Bennett wrote: > > PS I agree, cyber bully is a much better phrase & very accurate, as it > refers to verbal abuse. A lot of my recent research about emotional & verbal > abuse defines those doing the abuse as bullys & controllers. Needing to be > right, not listening to others, being likeable in public but abusive in > private, basically being in a lot of pain That "being in a lot of pain" is why I don't hate Marcel. but not doing the work to get to > the source of the pain. That's why I don't want to be around him. Bad-mouthing me, or others, as the source of his trouble and continuing to be abusive is not going to ever make that pain go away and, unfortunately, there's not even a hint that he's willing to look at himself, so nothing will ever change for him or anyone around him. That's sad for everyone. Debra Shea P.S. I like the term cyber-bully better too. I can understand the use of cyber-rapist in the sense of someone being overpowering and demanding that he be allowed to behave any way he wants to even if it's hurtful to someone else. And also in the sense that such behavior is not to get anything positive, sex in the case of actual rape, or a genuine exchange of thoughts and feelings in the case of the internet, but only to have power over and intimidate someone. I can understand that use of the word cyber-rapist. I prefer the use of the word cyber-bully because it implies an ongoing attitude that results in certain actions, in addition to having the wanting to intimidate and control aspect to it. It also does not conjure up violent physical actions that the term cyber-rapist does. Verbal abuse can easily lead to physical abuse, especially if the target is not being hurt enough or has somehow learned to "take it", but bullying does not always get to that level, especially if the target is able to physically stay away as I've done. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 18:42:23 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: Colin's description of abuse NJC I don't disagree with any of your points Yael. I do not hate Marcel, nevrer have and never will. This went on for LONG tiem, almost 2 years for some. The soft way was tried, the reasoning etc-it was all tried. it didn't work-in fact the replies got worse. So I agree with you, everyone can change and should be givent hat ooportunity to. Like you I do mnot believe in eternal dmantion of someone for bad beahviour. howevr, people did try reason. It didn't work. in the end he is responsible for his beahviour and it's results. If someone refuses to see, they cannot be made to and no matter what resoect we might feel toward another human being, unacceptable behaviour is unacceptable. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 10:25:07 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: abuse njc colin, i am so glad you are back! i am not sure that people are defending abusive behavior. i think that they are just not really aware of it ... it is an insidious thing.....i hope whoever got this email sends it to les for his judgement as to what to do...i agree with you that abuse must not be tolerated... i have a list of things i am going to post about abuse...hoping the info helps anyone who might be dealing with this issue...on or off the list. >>>I am appalled that people are defending abusive behaviour, making light of it. This abuse did not happen by accident, it was not misinterpreted words, it was deliberate and clear. Very few emails have been in support of those of us who stood aganist the abuse...the abuse is still going on. I cannot mention who got it, but a friend recently got an email from a current lister which started 'you evil bitch'.<<< ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 10:25:10 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: emotional abuse njc (very long) skip this if you are not interested...these are only excerpts from oodles of information out there on verbal & emotional abuse...here are just a few of the websites that i got this info from: http://www.verbalabuse.com/indexmain.shtml http://drirene.com/ http://www.studentaffairs.cmu.edu/counseling/documents/emotion.htm http://www.obgyn.net/displayarticle.asp?page=/yw/articles/Romeopart6 Bully behaviors: 7 an aggressive counter-attack of counter-criticism or counter-allegation, often based on distortion or fabrication. Lying, deception, duplicity, hypocrisy and blame are the hallmarks of this stage. The purpose is to avoid answering the question and thus avoid accepting responsibility for their behavior. Often the target is tempted - or coerced - into giving another long explanation to prove the bully's allegation false; by the time the explanation is complete, everybody has forgotten the original question. 7 counter-attack being insufficient, the bully feigns victim hood by manipulating people through their emotions, especially guilt. This commonly takes the form of bursting into tears, which most people cannot handle. The bully wins by default. Variations include indulgent self-pity, feigning indignation, melodrama, martyrdom and a poor-me drama. 7 manipulating people's perceptions to portray themselves as the injured party and the target as the villain of the piece. Sometimes the bully will suddenly claim to be suffering "stress". Alleged ill-health can also be a useful vehicle for gaining attention and sympathy. 7 A further advantage of the denial/counter-attack/feigning victim hood strategy is that it acts as a provocation. The target, who may have taken months to reach this stage, sees their tormentor getting away with it and is provoked into an angry and emotional outburst after which the bully says simply "There, I told you s/he was like that". Thus the bully plays their master stroke and casts their victim as villain. When called to account for the way they have chosen to behave, mature adults do not respond by bursting into tears. If you're dealing with a bully who has just exhibited this avoidance tactic, sit passively and draw attention to the pattern of behavior they've just exhibited, and then the purpose of the tactic. Then repeat the original question. Bullies project their inadequacies, shortcomings, behaviors etc on to other people to avoid facing up to their inadequacy and doing something about it (learning about oneself can be painful), and to distract and divert attention away from themselves and their inadequacies. Projection is achieved through blame, criticism and allegation; once you realize this, every criticism, allegation etc that the bully makes about their target is actually an admission or revelation about themselves. This knowledge can be used to perceive the bully's own misdemeanors; for instance, when the allegations are of financial or sexual impropriety, it is likely that the bully has committed these acts; when the bully makes an allegation of abuse (such allegations tend to be vague and non-specific), it is likely to be the bully who has committed the abuse. Mediation with this type of individual is inappropriate. Bullies regard mediation (and arbitration, conciliation, negotiation etc) as appeasement, which they ruthlessly exploit; it allows them to give the impression in public that they are negotiating and being conciliatory, whilst in private they continue the bullying. The lesson of the twentieth century is that you do not appease aggressors. Abuse is always about CONTROL. Whether it is verbal abuse, emotional abuse, or physical abuse, IT IS ABOUT CONTROLLING YOUR PARTNER, subtly or openly. 7 Never forget that your partner's objective is to engage you in a fight; to provoke and provoke and provoke until you lose your cool and blow up 7 Do not take the things your partner says personally. They are not about you. They are about your partner's attempt to engage you 7 Never, ever defend your position. That puts you in a one-down position. Yo u have no reason to explain yourself to anyone (but yourself). You don't need anyone's permission or approval. Don't bother trying to change someone's mind or make them see your point. It doesn't matter. When you defend yourself, you put yourself in the position of justifying your actions to others. You seek understanding, agreement, empathy, recognition of what's really going on, etc. This is OK in an ordinary relationship. It's not OK in an abusive one: 7 One characteristic of all abused men is shame. I've never met a woman who could hold as much shame as these men do. It cripples them. Society amplifies it. It is as though their souls are crucified - they are nailed and held immobile by nails of shame. All of them say one thing - in one way or another: "I am no longer a man." I can see a mans shame. It's PITIFUL. They spend more effort hiding their shame than anything else. It is their last piece of humanity that they cling to 7 Female abusers seem to tend to look for victims who are either very logical or very idealistic. I think this is necessary for them because they need something to be fixed and immovable in the mans mind upon which she can crucify the man's self image 7 Abusers justify their displays of anger or disrespect by blaming the partner. The spouse, usually over-responsible, emotional, and codependent 7 The abuser's self-absorption and expectations spawn imbalance: The relationship is one-sided and is exclusively focused on meeting the emotional needs of the angry person. The abused partner's emotional needs are seldom met -- and are often actively thwarted. The active thwarting of the abused partner's emotional needs is often the provocation 7 Emotional closeness and reciprocity threaten the little power angry people have. Closeness and reciprocity imply the ability to honestly accept one's own imperfections; to be wrong, lose, give up, give in. Clinging to rigid standards of perfection, the abusive individual cannot operate honestly. Honest reality is dangerous. It threatens the little emotional stuff being right affords. Therefore, what-really-happened-in-the-world has to be bent. The angry person must "be right" to feel ok -- even if reality has to be reinvented to justify the angry persons perspective. This manipulation ensures that the abuser is "right," and gets the partner to "agree." 7 The abusive individual's problem is rooted in self-absorption. The ability to consider the other person's point of view is obliterated by the absorption with perceived attack, self-defense, etc 7 Insecure or shy people are most vulnerable to abusive partners. Controlling people are often expert pursuers 7 The angry person does not allow their partner to be angry with them. If you are angry at them, they get even angrier with you 7 The angry person is emotionally needy and may feel neglected or jealous when their partner spends time with close friends or family members, their stepchildren, even their own children 7 The angry person does not know how to trust 7 My personal experience with attempting to communicate with an abuser is simply: they speak a different language than their partner. (Let's call it "MeMe.") That is an easy way to sum up the many different statements they use to control, frighten, confuse, or intimidate their partners. Normal mentally healthy persons in a relationship use language to consciously convey their thoughts to their partner. Abusers however use language to manipulate their partners into giving them what they want. Sometimes consciously, sometimes not. In fact, I believe that abusers learn to use manipulation so well, that it actually becomes a language to them, and they eventually lose conscious control of their responses 7 Their language is actually a tool to protect themselves from emotional exposure. Even when their relationships appear to be even-keeled, they are often setting themselves up for future verbal victories. I say that since having studied this matter intricately, I can accurately predict my partners response to given circumstances - which would have resulted in emotional exposure nearly every time. This makes it very clear to me that there has never been any communication nor can there ever be without intense professional therapy. And even then, its an "if." Abusers are so afraid to expose themselves and so bent on control that they know no other way. They can't speak our language. They have no idea how to speak a language that would require considering the needs and wants of others 7 I believe that after food and shelter, the most basic human need is to be understood and accepted. That's why I also believe that the lack of communication is by far the most frustrating and destructive part of the abusive relationship. You can't even solve minor issues involving children or finance without being attacked or accused of attacking. That is what really wears the partner down. Not their rage and anger, but your daily frustration and loneliness 7 Usually partners try reasoning with them about all sides being given a fair chance to talk. What they don't realize is that abusers don't really care what their partners are saying so it serves them no purpose to listen. In fact, the abuser would prefer that the partner not talk and simply accept their assertions as Gospel. When the partner learns this, they can truly have an understanding of the hopelessness of fixing an abusive relationship without professional counseling. Their is no possibility of communication if one of the parties is determined not to communicate 7 This is an easy way for the abuser to avoid addressing your concerns, remain in control, change the subject, and launch a counter attack. You may also notice that this avoids answering a question. Abusers DO NOT ANSWER QUESTIONS!!! That is perceived by them as giving up control. They generally answer a question with a question in attempt to through the partner off balance and regain control. They will do this repeatedly until you capitulate or until they provoke an argument. This also has the added benefit of teaching the partner not to bring any complaints to the attention of the abuser. The second form is to accuse the partner of whatever the partner accuses them of 7 Only the Abuser's feelings count. He throws a little guilt in the pot for good measure. The Victim's reaction to the Abuser's mis-behavior is turned around, against her. This interaction went by too fast; she knew something went wrong, but felt lost 7 The abuser actively looks for excuses to blow up over, and may set their partner up in a no-win situation If you possess a strong sense of responsibility, Controllers will use it against you. Understanding how to prevent a Controller from manipulating your conscience is key in learning how to "counter - control." Moral integrity is one of the finest assets a person can possess, but it can attract a Controller the way a "hot target" attracts a cruise missile. When dealing with a Controller, conscientiousness can be your Achilles Heel. Integrity and conscientiousness remind Controllers of their most profound character flaw. They hate being reminded of what they do not have. They hate those qualities in others because Controllers cannot possess them. That is one reason that they are attracted to integrity. But their attraction is rooted in a desire to dominate or destroy. They must manipulate, rule or emotionally and psychologically annihilate anyone whose soundness of character reminds them of their own profoundly egotistical, selfish and empty natures. All effective counter-control is rooted in understanding how a Controller manipulates someones conscience and uses it against him or her. But the great trick to discovering how to effect practical counter-control is in knowing how to overcome a Controllers amorally motivated drive to control, without turning into a Controller yourself. Once you have identified the type of Controller confronting you, the following techniques can be employed: Mirroring & Restraint Mirroring involves a method of telling someone what he or she wants to hear, and it is a technique most effectively employed with pure Narcissists. However, it may require you to say things that bring you to the queasy edge of emotional nausea. Narcissists usually initiate verbal assaults when their egos are challenged. Remember that they are driven to "look good" all of the time. Anyone who tarnishes their idealized self-image must be belittled, degraded or demeaned. So, deflecting attack involves discovering how they need their self-image polished then either polishing it (which is where the risk of nausea begins) or simply "restraining" the urge to speak at all. Polishing does not have to involve honeyed praise or ingenuous compliments. It can simply be an agreeable nod of the head and a smile whenever a narcissistic boss or parent rants about their "superior qualities." Just keep in mind that pointing out their flaws will not only draw fire, but can begin a relentlessly punishing campaign against designed to "prove you wrong" or bring your career to a sudden halt. Simple restraint may seem like an easier strategy to employ, but when dealing with Controller arrogance, it is rarely simple. The malicious disdain of many Narcissists can test the patience of Job himself. It is very difficult to tolerate witnessing the harm narcissistic Controllers verbally and emotionally inflict on others, particularly if its another family member, fellow employee or friend. The primary problem in exercising either mirroring or restraint with a Controller, is that it requires subtlety and finesse. Although you may have to remain present, as in a job with good pay, benefits and retirement plan, the trick is to avoid comment unless it is absolutely necessary. Vanishing and Camouflage are techniques for accomplishing that goal. Vanishing and Camouflage In 1961, a former Army Air Corps bombardier published a novel that could have been a fictionalized version of his experiences in World War II. The main character of the story was a bombardier called Yossarian, and the book was named Catch-22. But, as the author Joseph Heller once remarked when someone told him it was a great war-novel, "It's not about war. It's about how to survive working in a corporation." And that's why it provides an excellent example for learning how to deal with Controllers in a Controller-dominated workplace. An added benefit is that it is a wildly funny book. 8-million people have read it. But few have viewed it as a fictionalized textbook on counter-control. Survival depends upon knowing how to not become a target. The art of not becoming a target-- vanishing -- is the art of camouflage. The last thing to do when trying not to draw attention to oneself is wave a red flag in front of a controlling bull. If a Controller is the bull, trying to convince him of why he should not be victimizing you is the red flag. Put the flag down. Camouflage is the art of learning how not to draw attention. Read Catch-22 and study Captain Or. Meditate on how to apply his methods the next time you feel stuck in dealing with a Controller. Escape and Evasion Or's success in dealing with the lethal forces pitted against him depended upon having more than survival as a goal. He wanted to remove himself from harm's way -- and from having to deal with controlling, narcissistic leaders -- and end up in a very nice place. A persistent application of mirroring, restraint, vanishing and camouflage can require nerves of steel and a lead-lined stomach, but they are endurable if you can discover where you want to be beyond a particular zone of someone else's control. Look inside yourself and find an image of that place beyond the zone. And keep it simple. When dealing with any Controller, a desire for freedom from control is always a simple place to start. Captain Or achieved his objective of finding freedom by simply being clear to himself about where he did not want to be, which automatically made it obvious exactly how to achieve his goal and where he could find it. Keeping the goal clearly and concretely defined in his mind at all times kept his efforts steadily focused upon achieving that goal. In the end, my years of experience in counseling those who have survived Controller manipulations ultimately terminates against the same realization. The only effective way to deal with a Controller is to avoid him or leave him. Mirroring, restraint and camouflage can help you deal with them, if you must, but life feels infinitely better when they are out of your life -- or you, out of theirs. Basic Rights in a Relationship 7 The right to good will from the other. 7 The right to emotional support. 7 The right to be heard by the other and to be responded to with courtesy. 7 The right to have your own view, even if your partner has a different view. 7 The right to have your feelings and experience acknowledged as real. 7 The right to receive a sincere apology for any jokes you may find offensive. 7 The right to clear and informative answer to questions that concern what is legitimately your business. 7 The right to live free from accusation and blame. 7 The right to live free from criticism and judgment. 7 The right to have your work and your interests spoken of with respect 7 The right to encouragement. 7 The right to live free form emotional and physical threat. 7 The right to live free from angry outburst and rage. 7 The right to be called by no name that devalues you. 7 The right to be respectfully asked rather than ordered. ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 14:41:26 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: On second-guesssing Les (NJC) For any list members out there who are still second-guessing Les' decision to remove Marcel from the list, please do us all a favor and go to the JMDL site's archives and take a look at the posts from September 10, 11, and 12 of this year. Those were extremely traumatic days for everyone, so I think some of you may have forgotten the circumstances that lead to Marcel's expulsion. If rereading the posts from those three days isn't enough to get you to throw your full support behind Les, then I honestly don't know what planet you're from. Before, during and after the attacks on the US, Marcel continued to harass list members -- including New Yorkers who were living through unprecedented horror. Even if you've met Marcel and were charmed by his talent and personality, his words and actions during the period leading up to his banishment are indefensible. Would you expect to be allowed to remain on the list if you had behaved so badly? I wouldn't. Les' decision to remove Marcel isn't censorship, it's sanity. I wonder if the list as we know it would even be around today if Les hadn't taken action. Marcel behaved very badly over and over again. He hurt lots of people, and when asked to stop, he just kept it right up. To this day, the poison he spewed on- and off-list continues to cause controversy, defections and pain. Like others on the list, I do not hate Marcel. I actually miss his political commentary on various issues, even though his beliefs are often totally opposite mine. But I hate what Marcel did -- and continues to do -- to the list. And I think that even if you disagree with me, the least you can do is to show your appreciation to Les by taking a moment to offer him your support and thanks. --Bob ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2001 #464 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?