From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2001 #446 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Thursday, September 27 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 446 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Today's Articles: September 27 [les@jmdl.com] RE: Happy Trails to you NJC [M.Russell@iaea.org] Re: fuddle duddle (njc) ["Kakki" ] Hearts are aflame (djc) [RobSher50@aol.com] RE: Happy Trails to you (NJC) [M.Russell@iaea.org] fuddle duddle link (njc) ["shane mattison" ] Re: jaco [FredNow@aol.com] Re: The JMDL (a lurker's perspective), njc ["jlamadoo, home account" ] Morning Notes - NJC [MGVal@aol.com] Re: Happy Trails to you njc [] Re: 10 Desert Island CDs [] Re: The JMDL (a lurker's perspective) njc ["J. R. Mills" ] Fwd: Happy Trails to you (Quicksilver Messenger Service version) N JC [Ka] Re: Happy Trails to you (NJC) [AsharaJM@aol.com] NJC Re: top 10 [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Club 47 [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: The JMDL (a lurker's perspective) njc ["James L. Leonard" ] Re: I can do this one last time NJC ["Lori R. Fye" ] Re: Happy Trails to you NJC ["Lori R. Fye" ] Joni covers: Lorraine Gervais [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Morning Notes - NJC (Smurf Content) [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: NJC Re: The JMDL (a lurker's perspective) ["James L. Leonard" M.Russell@iaea.org wrote: > > > > Debra and Vince, you both contribute so much to JMDL. Please let's try to > > stay engaged and have peaceful discussions. > > I think our discussions ARE peaceful. Not easy, not comfortable, but not > warlike either. The opposite of war is peace, but "peaceful" has many opposites, not only the word "warlike" and, personally, I would not describe arguments or verbal attacks as peaceful. Vince felt verbally attacked by you and I was responding to his feeling of being attacked. I included your name because you seemed to be a part of the equation as a result of how Vince reacted to whatever it was you said. I really should just keep out of all this, because I didn't even read the original posts, but I feel compelled to say something when people leave. What I most want to communicate is: 1. If we can't stay engaged with each other and come to understanding and agreement, even if it's only agreeing to disagree, how can we expect anyone else in the world to do that? 2. I think it is worth making an effort in this forum to speak to each other in such a way that nothing we say could be construed as a personal attack on anyone else. Marian Vienna ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 00:39:11 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: fuddle duddle (njc) Haha, Shane! Coincidently I read an in-depth article on him (don't remember where) after his passing which told about this incident. I remember when he was prime minister but was too young to know anything much about him really, other than reading that he dated Barbra Streisand for awhile and his ex-wife Margaret hung out with the Rolling Stones ;-) It was fantastic to finally learn more about him from my "adult" perspective. What an incredible and interesting man he was, and very much an individualist! Thanks for the smile. Kakki nostalgia piece: under some pretty heated questioning, pierre trudeau, prime minister of canada, fingered and mouthed "f.o." to a couple of most distinguished members of parliament, right in the House of Commons, commencing the "fuddle duddle" scandal... hear the day's aftermath live: http://media.cbc.ca:8080/ramgen/radio/programs/thismorning/audio/tm_fuddle0 00928.rm shane ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 03:32:09 EDT From: RobSher50@aol.com Subject: Hearts are aflame (djc) All I ask is that everyone remember that passions are running very high and hearts are aflame. It is so easy to hurt and be hurt right now. (Paul, you know I love you as a friend, I know the real you and I know how much you love Joni, but you've got to take that biting edge off of some of those comments, please?) People have come and go on this list for many years. Some come back and some do not. Everyone has to remember that people are here because of their love for Joni Mitchell. When a person leaves, they are just as grieved at leaving their Joni brothers and sisters as they are grieved about the actual incident which led up to their departure. It really hurts. Now is not a time for anyone to make any major judgments or decisions about anything. There is too much going on emotionally. It's the same wisdom one gives when someone else is grieving over the loss of a loved one. Major decisions should be put on hold until the person is in a right frame of mind to weigh the consequences of their decision. Slow down and breathe. Everything is going to be all right. We have "the bond." Never forget that. Sherelle ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 09:42:00 +0200 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: RE: Happy Trails to you (NJC) On 27 September 2001 01:30, IVPAUL42@aol.com [SMTP:IVPAUL42@aol.com] wrote: #%@>#+~# \#+#! #%@>#+~# \#+#! #% @>#+~# \#+#! #%@>#+~# \#+#! "Every picture has its shadows and it has some source of light" Marian Vienna ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 01:56:20 -0600 From: "shane mattison" Subject: fuddle duddle link (njc) the fuddle dudle link got folded somehow...here it is: http://media.cbc.ca:8080/ramgen/radio/programs/thismorning/audio/tm_fuddle000 928.rm shane ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 04:57:07 EDT From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: jaco In a message dated 9/26/01 4:15:09 PM, les@jmdl.com writes: >"William Waddell" >Subject: jaco > >Les wrote; > >today from injuries suffered in a beating at a bar in Florida.> >Is this really how he died? Yes, it is. - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 05:56:37 -0400 From: "jlamadoo, home account" Subject: Re: The JMDL (a lurker's perspective), njc Uhh.. great essay, Mister Leonard. Uh, Jim. I saw myself in your caricature of an over-invested, touchy-feelie JMDL member but you're lack of malice allowed me to learn from it. [[ Let that be a lesson to the REST of you! :) I'm joking here. ]] I'm always glad to see a lurker step up. I remember some great writing from you on the List. If I recall correctly, you're a "words" person too. I think the JMDL is like garlic. It's too strong to a part of a continuous diet. I've deleted whole digests many, many times. I've had periods between accounts when I was not subbed at all, but I've never left the community. I think that the present-day JMDL is too big to read every day although I'd like to see another fat essay on Joni's works (your choice). I noticed that you want to see more Joni Discussion. Cool. I've been thinking about that apocolyptic "Slouching Toward Bethlehem" from 1991's "Night Ride Home" album. Do you think there's a thread in it? Which works are undervalued, and why? Compare/contrast. :) How 'bout it, Mister Leonard. Is there another essay in the works? Lama "James L. Leonard" said: >>>>> When I first subscribed to the JMDL, I jumped in with both feet and posted a lot. It didn't take long for me to retreat into lurk mode, by choice, but I've faithfully read every JMDL Digest for about a year and a half now. I think the personality you've allowed the JMDL to develop has its pros and cons, but as a fan of Joni Mitchell's, I think it's mostly cons. All I'm trying to tell you is that what I had hoped to find here was a Joni Mitchell Discussion List, which at least had music as its foundation, if not Joni's music, exclusively. With love and best wishes (say what you will, because I do care for you knuckleheads), Jim - ------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 06:29:54 -0400 From: "jlamadoo, home account" Subject: Top Ten Reasons To Not Worry About My Friend Kakki, NJC Kakki will survive this latest difficulty. Here are some bigger challenges she's already mastered. She flew LOG to LAX in 2001..... and LIVED! Survived several L.A. Earthquakes. She has survived (so far) the California Electical Shortage. Has evaded the California mudslides. She survived Jerry Brown as Govenor. Why, she even survived Topsfield mosquitos. Lama ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 06:32:29 -0400 From: "jlamadoo, home account" Subject: Apology for lack of njc I humbly apologize for forgetting the njc label on my last post. I do try to respect it. Jim ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 07:01:45 EDT From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Morning Notes - NJC I could have been watching Fox's Love Cruise last night but instead I sat in my chair and thought about the list and the current rash of leavers as well as Ashara's eloquent post for calm, Brian's comments on list angst and Mark Scott's good post from the last digest. And I'm seeing people not posting anything about it, which is fine and I'm seeing people like Marian and Mags feeling bad that they didn't stick up for Vince sooner as well as people saying "it's your choice. Hope you come back soon." Plus some snide comments, (which Mags handled rather well!). Sounds like a normal community to me. But what is it about the JMDL community that gets so passionate so fast? On the WeCount! accounting list, we've nearly come to blows over straight-line depreciation but never with such gusto, never with such hurt feelings, perceived insults, straight out insults, injured silences. Why the difference? And I think that the key word is "community." Some call it a "family." Passions run high in places like that and the JMDL gets further complicated by the fact that it is electronic based, 300+ strong with varying degrees of participation, response time, communication skills and more. When I post, I have no idea if Ashara is having a bad day because she can't figure out just why she's found gristle in her lentil burger or if, 8 months down the road, a breeze brings a whiff of construction dust to Debra Shea and she spends a traumatized day reliving the events of September 11th or if someone else is tearing their hair out over the Smurf controversy: does that title go to Bob S'murphy or Bob S'muller. Who gives a schmit? My point is, passions can spark from the mundane to the profound to everything in between and learning how to live with "electronic" relationships is new to nearly everyone. For myself, I know that I cannot deny the bond that I feel with some of the list members, a few of whom I've never met and yet considered myself very close to them! How do I make sure that these bonds don't jeopardize my "real life" relationships and how do I nurture and strength these bonds? All the while having to get up, make coffee, go to work, do laundry and more. For myself, I have read posts on the list that have made me feel sad or have made me feel a real part of things or have made me feel horribly excluded. I've felt angry! Jealous! Educated! Uplifted! And all this sitting in this corner of my bedroom. Unbelievable. And for everyone who gets tears streaming down their faces as they respond to something or recount thoughts, there is someone else who isn't as affected. For everyone who forgets to list "The 1969 Miracle Mets Commemorative Album" as one of their island picks, there's someone else sighing heavily in the background thinking: "sheesh!" For everyone who skips over a thread as being of no consequence, there's someone else who really gets hurt. The comparison of reactions can go on and on. And I guess the point that sticks out the most to me is why didn't they vote Andrea off the Love Cruise boat instead of Laura? Wait! NO! The point that sticks out the most to me is what a learning experience this is and how much we have to learn in terms of interacting with each other. And I think that moratoriums on "stressful" subjects during times like these isn't the total answer, because to someone out there, everyday is "times like these" and every thread can be "stressful." I think that another thing to try is the old English 101 technique of write, take a break, then edit. Even with this post, I've gone back, edited out the dull parts, (hard to believe, huh?), rewrote lines that, after a cup of coffee, I thought might be construed the wrong way. Every time I DON'T follow that, I post something stoopid. I hope that we do not lose any more good people, I hope that we get back the ones that we did. I hope that we never stop growing. MG And hey! Mary the Newbie! Where's your post? Get it in there gal! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 12:07:31 +0100 From: Subject: Re: Happy Trails to you njc > I don't know if Vince is a real reverend, and frankly, I don't care. If he > wants to be part of this group and share our discussion about Joni and her > music and how it might affect our lives in general, fine. > But if he is here to act like the Rev. Vince, then good riddance. > > Paul I > As far as I know Rev Vince adhered to the njc tag and was therefore as entitled as anyone else to speak on njc matters. He seemed a kind and gentle soul who had wise words to say about the mess the world is in. Philip ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 12:08:29 +0100 From: Subject: Re: 10 Desert Island CDs Beach Boys - Surf's Up Stereolab - Angel Dust Skeeter Davis and NRBQ - She Sings, They Play Sir John Betjeman - Late Flowering Love The Bothy Band - Live at the Palais Bridget St John - Songs For The Gentle Man De La Soul - 3 ft High and Rising Curtis Mayfield - Back To The World Bach - Orchestral Suites Joni Mitchell - Chalkmark In A Rainstorm Philip ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 04:42:09 -0700 From: "J. R. Mills" Subject: Re: The JMDL (a lurker's perspective) njc Jim wrote: <> Thanks for your thoughts, Jim. I always like hearing from the silent majority that is the lurker contingent on the JMDL. I remember your posts well and have enjoyed them...I'm sorry you felt the need to retreat. However, I've got to disagree with most of your conclusions regarding the JMDL. Lurking's fine, but it doesn't make you Sigmund Freud, B.F. Skinner or Abraham Maslow. Email is, by definition, an interpersonal medium. I can't fathom what you expected to read when you joined the list, but it must've become obvious in short order that you weren't going to get it. To me, a post from you on why you stayed on the JMDL would be more illuminating to read than why you retreated to lurkdom. I've been on this list since it's inception, almost. I'm here to tell you I feel like I know almost all there is to know about one Roberta Joan Anderson Mitchell. Anyone who wants to think, post and read about Joni Mitchell and her oeuvre, brilliant as it is, every single day of their lives, is obsessive, compulsive and probably delusional. I'm not. This discussion list is predicated on the life and *times* of Joni, and to me, that spells the people who appreciate her and *their* lives. How her music finds expression in their relationships, and vice versa. You can find out all the Joni Mitchell facts you want on JoniMitchell.com or jmdl.com, sonicnet.com or your local library. The JMDL is not a Joni Mitchell wire service. It is not a Joni Mitchell fan club. News flash!: It IS a social club, of sorts. That's not necessarily a bad thing, in view of the alternatives. > I think the personality you've allowed the JMDL to develop has its pros and > cons, but as a fan of Joni Mitchell's, I think it's mostly cons. I believe > the "loving, caring community" you strive for sets you up for these constant > petty wars. The JMDL is in a constant state of evolution and has a life of its own, Jim. I laugh when I think of one, or a group of JMDLers trying to influence the development of this forum one way or the other, as you're suggesting might be possible. Imagine. Actually, I think the mysterious "inner circle" has tried to guide with their consciences, but a lot of them have uns.ubscribed lately, ironically. At the end of the day, all you can do is kick someone off to enforce any tenents. All anyone can do to improve this list is start with the man or woman in the mirror and try to put their best foot forward when communicating here. I wonder what your rules for the perfect JMDL might be...and how you'd enforce them? I think most of us are doing the best we can to make the JMDL social club a pleasant and fulfilling set of experiences, all according to our particular gifts. But clearly, if you're not into love, caring and community you've stumbled upon the wrong list, I think. I'm not sure it's being "strived" for, but I know it somehow thrives here, and certainly these are some of the emotions that attracted me to Joni and her music. >Some people here have so much of their ego and self-image invested in their "JMDL > image" that slights are seen where none are intended. There's a constant > need by some on the list to be seen as the most eloquent, or the most > sensitive, or the most knowledgeable and well-read, or the most caring, and, > when there's so much, by so many, invested in that kind of thing, this > circle game of war and peace on the list is bound to "reoccur" (intended > Joni-related humor there). There's all this talk about how much everybody > loves one another so much. > > With love and best wishes (say what you will, because I do care for you > knuckleheads), > Jim This is where you really go overboard with the amateur psychology bit. How are you qualified to know what anyone else has "invested" in this list? How can you speak to someone else's motivation to be here or post here when you can't even reconcile your own? You can't, or won't, post with any regularity out of protest over the quality of the communications here, right? But you can't bring yourself to leave either, the ultimate protest. It's like complaining about the "Jerry Springer" show on the TV, how apalling it is. Turn the freaking channel, why don't you? Don't read the posts! You say the list is too touchy-feely, but yet you close with how much you love and care about us knuckleheads. I'm not trying to be insulting here, I swear, but you've got me confused. For my part, I offer This List one guarantee: when I leave or "retreat" to lurking, there will be no weepy farewell, no guilt to impart on everyone as a parting shot because you all didn't soothe me when I cried out, or come to my defense when I felt I had been slighted. Nor will I complain that you all didn't talk about Joni enough. There will be no mass psychoanalysis, no blanket aspirtions cast, nor value judgements rendered. There will simply be a few keystrokes from me to the listserver, and I will be gone. I will be missed, or I will be missed not. But I will have no regrets and I will not complain that I didn't get what I wanted or thought I was entitled to from the JMDL. With love, Julius ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 08:18:19 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Happy Trails to you IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 9/26/01 4:55:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > groovchacha@yahoo.com writes: > > > Rev. Vince wrote: > > ...In that we have reached a point where a discussion of > > historical fact leads to charges of my being > > vehemently anti-Catholic then whatever I am doing > > here is not doing any good, > > I did not receive Rev. Vince's post from which this is quoted, but the > feeling I get from this statement is that he is (or was) a member of this > list to serve some sort of pastoral function, either to preach to us or to > educate us about religion, specifically his view of religion, then he was on > the wrong list. As you are being your usual, sympathetic self Paul, let me explain. You need not have read the entire post to comment on it, but what part of "discussion of historical facts" do you not understand? He was not preaching, not educating about religion, but of history. Correcting facts. Something you do all the time on this list. And the fact that he IS an ordained priest of the Catholic Church means he is an authority on the subject whose opinions on a discussed topic are more than educated. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 08:23:47 EDT From: Kammass@aol.com Subject: Fwd: Happy Trails to you (Quicksilver Messenger Service version) N JC In a message dated 9/26/2001 8:26:59 AM Central Daylight Time, M.Russell@iaea.org writes: > I think it is a mistake for you to leave, Vince. > I agree, i think this list need you. I know you've helped me in the past and i'm sure others feel the same, too. Please reconsider. I don't really know you, but I felt the need to write this. kammy Return-Path: Received: from rly-zd01.mx.aol.com (rly-zd01.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.225]) by air-zd03.mail.aol.com (v80.30) with ESMTP id MAILINZD39-0926092659; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 09:26:59 -0400 Received: from smoe.org (jane.smoe.org [66.89.201.78]) by rly-zd01.mx.aol.com (v80.21) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINZD17-0926092630; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 09:26:30 2000 Received: from smoe.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smoe.org (8.12.0.Beta16/8.12.0.Beta16) with ESMTP id f8QDQ5v1012865; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 09:26:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by smoe.org (8.12.0.Beta16/8.12.0.Beta16/submit) with SMTP id f8QDQ32N012862; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 09:26:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: by smoe.org (bulk_mailer v1.10); Wed, 26 Sep 2001 09:26:03 -0400 Received: from smoe.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smoe.org (8.12.0.Beta16/8.12.0.Beta16) with ESMTP id f8QDQ1v1012852 for ; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 09:26:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by smoe.org (8.12.0.Beta16/8.12.0.Beta16/submit) id f8QDQ0F8012851 for joni-outgoing; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 09:26:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns1.iaea.or.at (mail2.iaea.org [161.5.64.79]) by smoe.org (8.12.0.Beta16/8.12.0.Beta16) with ESMTP id f8QDPov1012831 for ; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 09:25:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from iaea_m2.iaea.org (iaea-m2.iaea.or.at [161.5.68.241]) by ns1.iaea.or.at (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f8QDPVP44748Wed, 26 Sep 2001 15:25:31 +0200 Received: by iaea-m2.iaea.or.at with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 15:25:30 +0200 Message-ID: <14858C5D7DA4D111B0A90001FA371FD104EDECDE@sg-m1.iaea.or.at> From: M.Russell@iaea.org To: revrvl@chartermi.net, dsk11@bellatlantic.net Cc: joni@smoe.org Subject: RE: Happy Trails to you (Quicksilver Messenger Service version) N JC Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 15:24:33 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-joni@jmdl.com Reply-To: M.Russell@iaea.org Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Precedence: bulk On 26 September 2001 15:17, Vince Lavieri [SMTP:revrvl@chartermi.net] wrote: > My leaving will surely be an answer to some people's prayers... > > Good-bye all. > > (the Rev) Vince I think it is a mistake for you to leave, Vince. Marian ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 08:49:29 EDT From: AsharaJM@aol.com Subject: Re: Happy Trails to you (NJC) Paul said: > I did not receive Rev. Vince's post from which this is quoted, but the > feeling I get from this statement is that he is (or was) a member of this > list to serve some sort of pastoral function, either to preach to us or to > educate us about religion, specifically his view of religion, then he was > on > the wrong list. Then, in practically the same breath, you said: > I believe in free expression, and I take advantage of that belief by > expressing my views fairly freely, So.... you get to have freedom of speech, but Vince does not? I don't see Vince "serving" as any specific "function" other than a valued member of the JMDL. He comes "to the table" with all that he is, and in his case, that is with a religious bent. Others have different things they bring to this community, which is how, in my opinion it becomes a wonderful melting pot, filled with interesting and different people. > I don't know if Vince is a real reverend, and frankly, I don't care. If he > wants to be part of this group and share our discussion about Joni and her > music and how it might affect our lives in general, fine. > . Oh Paul, this is just plain mean. Really, why do you feel this is a neccessary thing to say? I really was glad, not to mention hopeful, that we saw a "gentler" side of you recently. Please think before pressing the "send" button on something as nasty as this. It really is uncalled for, and outright mean. Hugs, Ashara ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 08:50:29 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: NJC Re: top 10 Phil, Your picks were great!! I forgot about Todd & Steely Dan...AACKKKK!! Let me know which island you're going to so I can be on the same one! :~) Bob NP: Cheryl Wheeler, "Mrs. Pinocci's Guitar" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 09:26:22 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Club 47 <> No, it hasn't been officially treed, Ken. (The trees are just the wee tip o' the iceberg of what's out there). The songs you're refencing are Joni's Club 47 appearance of January 8-10, 1968. (This info taken off of an old flyer recently auctioned on E-Bay). Club 47 was a coffeehouse in Cambridge, MA, so this bootleg is most commonly known as "By The Banks of The River Charles". I think this is a great collection, whether this is one performance or a combination of several, I do not know. But here is the songlisting on the CD that I have: 1. Cactus Tree 2. Night In The City 3. The Gift of the Magi 4. I Had a King 5. Morning Morgantown 6. Ballerina Valerie 7. Song to a Seagull 8. Both Sides Now 9. Conversation 10. Come to the Sunshine 11. Chelsea Morning 12. The Pirates of Penance 13. The Way It Is 14. The Dawntreader It's only one of two collections (that I'm aware of) to feature "Magi", and also has some rare performances of Pirates and Dawntreader. And until the last video tree, it was the only performance I had of "The Way It Is" which she wrote for the CBC show of the same name. If you'd like a copy of the CD for yourself, tough! :~)I'm kidding, as always, I'm glad to share. Bob NP: Cheryl Wheeler, "Howl at the Moon" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 09:33:16 -0400 From: "James L. Leonard" Subject: Re: The JMDL (a lurker's perspective) njc Thanks for your well-considered comments on my post, Julius. If I were have to played devil's advocate with myself, I'm sure I would have asked some of the same things of me. I'd like to accept your invitation to respond to some of your comments, in an effort to clarify certain points I was trying to make, and why I was trying to make them. > Email is, by definition, an interpersonal medium. I can't fathom what you expected to read when you joined the list, but it must've become obvious in short order that you weren't going to get it. To me, a post from you on why you stayed on the JMDL would be more illuminating to read than why you retreated to lurkdom. > I've followed Joni's career very closely since the release of Clouds. Like some others on the list, I could desribe myself as a "music slut." I also subscribe to mailing lists devoted to Pat Metheny, Neil Young, and Van Morrsion - others in my personal "pantheon of favorite artists." I'm interested in other like-minded music lovers' opinions on music, but on other things, too. I read published album reviews voraciously. Given my almost life-long investment in following Joni's career, why would I not subscribe, and lurk, at the very least? > I've been on this list since it's inception, almost. I'm here to tell you I feel like I know almost all there is to know about one Roberta Joan Anderson Mitchell. Anyone who wants to think, post and read about Joni Mitchell and her oeuvre, brilliant as it is, every single day of their lives, is obsessive, compulsive and probably delusional. I'm not. > I think you misunderstood my point, Julius. I never suggested anyone of us should have such an obsession. Plus, knowing almost all there is to know about Joni is not the same as exchanging fresh opinions on her work, or discovering her continuing influences on others, or discussing her influences and interests - such as jazz, which I think Joni is beginning to explore even more deeply, vocally speaking, in her orchestral projects. > This discussion list is predicated on the life and *times* of Joni, and to me, that spells the people who appreciate her and *their* lives. How her music finds expression in their relationships, and vice versa. You can find out all the Joni Mitchell facts you want on JoniMitchell.com or jmdl.com, sonicnet.com or your local library. The JMDL is not a Joni Mitchell wire service. It is not a Joni Mitchell fan club. > Agreed. Jmdl.com is a great resource for the facts, among other things. At those times when I want some factual information about a topic, I'm delighted it's there at the click of a mouse. I disagree, however, that the JMDL should not be a Joni Mitchell fan club. People subscribe having discovered the link on the website (I did). It would follow that new subscribers are Joni Mitchell fans, don't you think? > News flash!: It IS a social club, of sorts. That's not necessarily a bad thing, in view of the alternatives. > What alternatives? You forgot to say. The other lists to which I'm subscribed have a similar-to-one-another, very different character than that of the JMDL. Whatever support one lister wishes to be to another in a time of personal crisis or blessed event seems to be communicated off-list, because there are none of the types of posts I see here. Close personal friendships do develop on these lists, but they develop off-list. I've made some wonderful friends through them (and through the JMDL). These friends and I write to each other about what's going on in our lives all the time, without using a public forum to do so. > I wonder what your rules for the perfect JMDL might be...and how you'd enforce them? > I couldn't say, and it's not my place. I don't think there should be "rules," per se. My post was inspired by all the tempers and the departures, and I was trying to explain my theory as to why I think the JMDL, by having let itself evolve into a "social club" in the way that it has, has set itself up for melodrama of this kind to continue indefinitely. > think most of us are doing the best we can to make the JMDL social club a pleasant and fulfilling set of experiences, all according to our particular gifts. But clearly, if you're not into love, caring and community you've stumbled upon the wrong list, I think. > I'm as into love and caring and community as anyone on this list, I'd wager. I'm a good friend, son, brother, and neighbor. My life is filled with love, and I'm very grateful for that. I'm an easy guy to like, one-on-one, if my lasting friendships and relationships are any indication. > For my part, I offer This List one guarantee: when I leave or "retreat" to lurking, there will be no weepy farewell, no guilt to impart on everyone as a parting shot because you all didn't soothe me when I cried out, or come to my defense when I felt I had been slighted. Nor will I complain that you all didn't talk about Joni enough. There will be no mass psychoanalysis, no blanket aspirtions cast, nor value judgements rendered. There will simply be a few keystrokes from me to the listserver, and I will be gone. I will be missed, or I will be missed not. But I will have no regrets and I will not complain that I didn't get what I wanted or thought I was entitled to from the JMDL. >This is the kind of posturing that makes me uncomfortable on the Bully for you, Julius. My post was born of frustration with the constant bickering and the purported defections, and was sent in the hope my opinion on this would be seen as a constructive one. I saw something I thought was true about the list, and which I still stand behind today, and I said it out loud. For what it's worth, I received many words of agreement off-list, and some from people I was very pleasantly surprised to receive them from (and who shall forever remain nameless, you have my word). I do think some of the public posts of what, I believe, should be privately communicated are, by very virtue of their public nature, suspect in their sincerety and their motivations. They read as self-congratulatory to me because of the context, whereas, if I were to receive these types of messages off-list when I needed comfort and support, I would be thrilled, and know they are from the heart. You also asked (edited) how I can reconcile the opinions I expressed yesterday by ending in saying that I care about the people here. How can one read this list, or the others I'm on, for that matter, and not grow to care for its participants? One would have to have a very cold heart, as you suggest I have, and which I assure you I do not. I have no intention of unsubscribing, and have every intention of continuing to read the digest. The atmosphere on the list, however, encourages a conformity to a "type" of involvement in it, which I am not comfortable with, as I said yesterday, "from a participatory standpoint." I hope that these responses, in combination with what I said yesterday, adequately express my point of view. I can't think of anything I haven't said or question I haven't answered to the degree I'm willing / able. Thanks, and with the best of intentions - yesterday and today, Jim ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 09:41:20 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Desert island CDs JC <> But the DREAM would turn into a NIGHTMARE when you find out that all Joni wants to is smash wild berries to make paints! :~) Bob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 09:47:45 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Morning Notes - NJC (Smurf Content) <> The Smurf doll and I had only a one-night stand, witnessed by Jody, Suze, and Wally K who were shameless in their voyuerism! Can't a guy and his smurf doll enjoy a little privacy? He WENT HOME with Murphy. (Evil) Bob reminds me constantly & tauntingly that the Smurf belongs to him. :~) Feeling blue, Bob NP: Andy Partridge, "Rocket" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 10:03:23 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: I can do this one last time NJC In a message dated 9/26/01 12:34:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, revrvl@chartermi.net writes: > Either I am not > worth speaking up for because you as a group perceive me as being > anti-people, or because no one values me enough to say a word on my > behalf, or because you think that I am so tough that I can laugh this > stuff off. As for the last. I hurt, too, I bleed as easily as any other > wounded person. And as for the others, that confirms this is not a > community for me. > > To Vince and all: "Where do you belong? The people you share important times with and feel at home with are your community. Everyone needs to be part of a community. We weren't made to live alone in the world." I can only speak for myself, but I for one sincerely appreciate you Vince and value your friendship and your membership here on this JMDL. I chose to be a part of this community and sometimes it even frightens me. I was taught long ago from the words of the Scripture that God always loves us and that when we sin we do things to hurt our relationship with God and with others. I hope that one day you can find it in your heart to forgive the wrongs you felt were done to here and return in peace. Our love here in this community is based very much on our fidelity to one person, Joni Mitchell. I spend most of my day within this close-knit social structure as I know many of you do. I chose to be a part of this community and sometimes it even frightens me. I know we each hold different principles, political views, but I accept them for what they are. The attack of the WTC has terrified everyone and we all feel we are endangered. The reality as I see it is that it's done, it happened and we can't do anything to change it. My Guru tells me that if we have a deep acceptance of these disasters, then we will ride out the present widespread catastrophe wiser and stronger than we were before. The point I guess he's trying to make is that if we meet these problems head on in the same loving spirit we meet our pleasures, then this tragedy can only deepen the bonds between us. I sent up a prayer Vince, Paz, Roberto I hope you guys return soon. Missing you. Rose in NJ rosemjoy@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 10:11:55 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Happy Trails to you (NJC) In a message dated 9/27/01 8:49:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, AsharaJM writes: > So.... you get to have freedom of speech, but Vince does not? Freedom of speech, but not freedom to preach. > >> I don't know if Vince is a real reverend, and frankly, I don't care. If he >> wants to be part of this group and share our discussion about Joni and her >> music and how it might affect our lives in general, fine. >> > . > Oh Paul, this is just plain mean. Really, why do you feel this is a > necessary thing to say? I really was glad, not to mention hopeful, that we > saw a "gentler" side of you recently. Please think before pressing the > "send" button on something as nasty as this. It really is uncalled for, and > outright mean. > > Hugs, > Ashara Maybe it was, but I can tell you that I received several private posts thanking me for saying what others had been thinking. One longtime and respected JMDLer said, "His constant positioning as the 'JMDL Preacher' makes my skin crawl." Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 10:20:57 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Just one question In a message dated 9/27/01 1:39:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hell@ihug.co.nz writes: > And the one question I'd ask Joni if I got the chance? That's a tough one, > because there are so many. I should ask about her music, lyrics, or her > painting, but it would probably be: > > "Do you have a spare room in your house, and can I come and live in it?" I > could wash brushes, clean cat-pee of her paintings, and empty the ashtrays > night and day. I could do her grocery shopping, so she doesn't have to > leave the house, and screen her calls - "I'm sorry, Ms. Mitchell doesn't > want to talk to you, because you sound boring. Good day." Click. I'd be > good at that. > > Hell > If Joni says yes, we'll chip in and buy you a pair of shin guards. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 10:22:01 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: NJC Re: The JMDL (a lurker's perspective) Jim, your points are well taken and well stated. All I'll say in response is that I have TRIED to find other music-oriented mailing lists when my frustration with this one reaches a boiling point, and for the life of me I haven't found one that comes close. Most lists either are ALWAYS off topic (Tom Waits list) or are so anally on-topic that you can't participate (XTC list). Or so cliqueish that only certain people will be responded to (They Might Be Giants, Elvis Costello lists). What makes the JMDL so cool is the flexibility offered to us by Les. To offer the "Joni-only" as an option is so awesome! Other lists that allow off-topic have suggestions that you include it in the subject line but they're rarely adhered to. Ours can filter out (most) of the NJC stuff if you don't want to see it. Personally, I use the delete key. A lot. Also personally, your knowledge of jazz and love of music is so deep, I wish you'd crawl out of the darkness more often, but I totally respect your decision to play as you wish. Bob NP: Andy Partridge, "This The End" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 10:25:02 EDT From: AsharaJM@aol.com Subject: Re: Happy Trails to you (NJC) Paul wrote: > Freedom of speech, but not freedom to preach. I disagree. Freedom of speech means just that- the freedom to say what you like, not freedom to say what you like only if everyone agrees that it's OK to say it. Even the KKK has the freedom to say what they will, even though I may not agree with their poison. > Maybe it was, but I can tell you that I received several private posts > thanking me for saying what others had been thinking. > One longtime and respected JMDLer said, "His constant positioning as the > 'JMDL Preacher' makes my skin crawl." So.......because "several" people agree with you, it's "OK" to be mean? Sorry, I don't buy that one for one second, Paul. You can disagree with someone, not like what they say, even not like the person themself, but in my book, there is *never* a reason to be downright mean. Never. Ashara ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 07:26:16 -0700 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Let us melt tempers....hot emotions...SEX (njc) Yes, I hooked you with sex before you deleted) Ok. Here is a question that should get everyone thinking with their heads and other parts. (I won't name the parts) If, you could make love to anyone on planet earth besides your significant other, who would that person be and what music would you have playing? (Ok? Some of you are soooo in-love with your partner you only have eyes for them. But you could at least tell us what music you would play) Fantasy time:(I'll take the dive first) Diana Krall singing .....I've got you under my skin. The person I can't name because she is on this list. Sorry. Celeb fantasy: Joni!!! Luther Vandross playing...Superstar.....or perhaps, "Talk TO Me" (it playing,while we're doing it with me asking her to talk to me) (politics and religion,enough already) Bree _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 14:28:08 +0000 From: "c Karma" Subject: re: silliness, etc and Good-byes The silliness, etc. post reminded me of the birthday greeting I had submitted to JJ (rejected on good taste issues) last year for Joni's card from members of this list and JoniMitchell.com; I find it appropriate in application to the fallout now occurring in this community: "Family aren't necessarily persons with whom you share genes, but those with which you occasionally share flatulence." That includes the verbal variety, too. Let's all try not to be too hard on each other or ourselves during this extremely difficult time for all humanity. If there's something we can do to help the physical and psychological casualties of this disaster (we perhaps among them), let's follow the battle cry of a fallen hero, "Let's roll." For ourselves in this community, let's follow a call somewhat less daunting but no less self affirming and supportive: "Let's Rock and Roll." CC "Hoping and hoping, as if by my weak faith, the spirit of this earth would heal and rise." -- JM/Keats _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 07:54:02 -0700 (PDT) From: "Lori R. Fye" Subject: Re: I can do this one last time NJC > You all won't miss me. A month from now > I'll be a faded memory, in six months a > trivia question/answer if anyone remembers > me at all. Not true, Vince. At least not for me. Lori, hoping you'll reconsider, in MD ~ Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone. http://phone.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 08:14:40 -0700 (PDT) From: "Lori R. Fye" Subject: Re: Happy Trails to you NJC Mark E. (are you still in Seattle?) wrote: > I also think that if people really took the time > to read each other's posts carefully and really > think about what the other person is saying, a lot > of this could be avoided. Some people will undoubtedly insist that they do take the time, but my advice is TAKE A LITTLE LONGER. If you think you might later regret what you're about to send, wait a bit. Step back, do something else for awhile. Then come back and read what you've written. (Maybe edit it?) THEN hit "Send" if you believe it should still be sent. Or ... "when in doubt, don't." Lori in MD ~ Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone. http://phone.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 11:36:13 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Joni covers: Lorraine Gervais One of the most recent Joni covers I've found is a version of "Blue Motel Room" by Lorraine Gervais on her CD called "Diva's Diversion", released last year but sadly hard to find. I contacted her directly to get it (artists generally respond quickly when you ask how to buy their CD!) and we've been having a nice conversation. An excerpt of it is below: Lorraine: "Joni has always been one of my favorites as well....I saw her almost 20 years ago and it was such a treat. In my regular jazz performing I do a couple of Joni tunes and have even done a couple of evenings with vocals, acoustic guitar, and soprano sax, and the whole evening is nothing but her tunes. It's amazing how packed the club always is- people really respond, as I'm guessing that not that many singers do her material these days. I do have a version of "A Case of You" that I recorded this last winter in a friend's studio, and it's arranged more like the orchestrated version on her latest album. I thought it would be interesting to see how it sounded that way, instead of the way I normally do it. If you're interested I'd be happy to make a copy and send it to you." Me again: Of course I started drooling immediately and she is sending me this version of Case of You. I have also purchased the CD with "Blue Motel Room" on it. It's ironic as I had just commented at the Fest that more people should be doing this great ballad! There is even an excerpt available for you to listen to: http://www.gervaismusic.com/pages/discog.html Just click on the "Blue Motel" link. Lorraine also tells me that she tours the west coast (she's based in Nevada City) and does 2 types of shows, R&B and jazz. She says she always does Joni in her jazz shows, and as she says above, sometimes she does ENTIRE gigs of just Joni! I told her to keep me informed so I can pass it along, maybe some of you on the west coast would be interested in a meet & greet coupled with a Joni tribute show! Bob, your covers watchdog, always on the prowl! NP: Helium Kidz, "Saturn Boy II" PS: More cover news coming...is it almost a new month already? ;~) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 11:41:26 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Morning Notes - NJC (Smurf Content) In a message dated 9/27/01 8:49:58 AM, SCJoniGuy@aol.com writes: << (Evil) Bob reminds me constantly & tauntingly that the Smurf belongs to him. >> Yes! The Smurf is mine, ha-ha, all mine! ! Do you hear me, MINE!!! --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 12:17:05 -0400 From: "James L. Leonard" Subject: Re: NJC Re: The JMDL (a lurker's perspective) Thanks for the kind words, fellow music slut! (I'm not really in your league, though, Bob. You are the quintessence of music slutiness, and I think that's great!) > All I'll say in response is that I have TRIED to find other music-oriented mailing lists when my frustration with this one reaches a boiling point, and for the life of me I haven't found one that comes close. > I just got lucky, I guess. Of the others I'm subscribed to, you might want to lurk on the Neil list for a few days. It's the best all-around music list I've seen. Everything and everybody gets discussed, Joni included. Trading of live concerts and rarities (Neil and non-Neil) is a primary activity. There are flame wars on rare occasions, but they're very different than those on the JMDL. And, unlike Joni, Neil is constantly active. He just finished a tour with Crazy Horse, after touring last year with CSN *and* then later in the fall with his own Stray Gators-type band, just appeared on the Tribute To America's Heroes, will appear again this year as an organzier and artist at Farm Aid (this weekend on CMT!), and will host his annual Bridge School Benefit Concerts, outside San Francisco, in October. A new album is forthcoming. Two were recently released. The guy is unstoppable at 56, and we just love him! > What makes the JMDL so cool is the flexibility offered to us by Les. To offer the "Joni-only" as an option is so awesome! Other lists that allow off-topic have suggestions that you include it in the subject line but they're rarely adhered to. Ours can filter out (most) of the NJC stuff if you don't want to see it. > That *is* a cool thing, and it was timely to point that out. As for me, though, I wouldn't want to miss out on any music threads, Joni or no. > Personally, I use the delete key. A lot. > That's not an option, though, if you're a digester, which, until today - so that I could respond to you and to others in a more timely fashion - I have been now for over a year. I do scroll through them, but you can't help but c atch the gist of each post as you skim past. I don't mind that, though, except when there's a lot of melodrama. I do wish there wasn't so much mail to wade through to get to something like Mark's recent review of his first Rickie Lee Jones concert, and his having come around to appreciating her. I wouldn't have wanted to miss that, and if I was a Joni-only subscriber, I suppose I would have. Here's an idea. Maybe instead of NJC the filter can be set for something else, like NMC (no music content) or NIC (no interpersonal content). I might sign up for those. Jim ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2001 #446 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?