From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2001 #444 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Wednesday, September 26 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 444 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: joni;thomas merton ["Kakki" ] Re: I can do this one last time NJC [dsk ] Re: grief and hurt(njc) ["Kate Bennett" ] you're o.k. ["shane mattison" ] Re: I can do this one last time NJC ["Marian" ] Re: Top Ten Island Discs ["Marian" ] Subject: Re: victor johnson!!!!!! (njc) ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: grief and hurt(njc) [Mags ] Nuclear reactions run amuck on the jmdl [Brian Gross ] was that a hoax??? (njc) [Anne Sandstrom ] Desert island CDs JC ["Russell Bowden" ] Re: Happy Trails to you [IVPAUL42@aol.com] One more desert island.. SJC ["Russell Bowden" ] Thomas Merton plug NJC ["Russell Bowden" ] Leavings NJC [MGVal@aol.com] 10 desert island picks njc [evian ] happiness njc ["Dolphie Bush" ] first records and such njc [evian ] fave songs njc [evian ] Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2001 #298 [StDoherty@aol.com] Subject: Re: Happy Trails to you (Quicksilver Messenger Service version) NJC ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: victor johnson!!!!!! (njc) [Catherine McKay ] Re: Happy Trails to you [Mags ] merton njc [PMcfad@aol.com] Re: Happy Trails to you NJC ["Mark or Travis" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 14:26:21 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: joni;thomas merton Wow Shane! Thank you so much for all this information and insight on Merton. I had no idea! Oooo, he sounds like my kind of guy, for sure ;-) Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 17:23:44 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: I can do this one last time NJC Vince Lavieri wrote: > > If I failed to do that, then I have sinned, but the accusation that I am > anti anybody goes to the core of who I am. I don't give a damn about > the fact the people may disagree with me but to attack me at my core > essence as a person: when I have been anti anybody? > > That no one jumped up and said, "hey, Vince is not anti-anyone" between > the time that the post was made and the time that I read it, that says > something to me about where I fit into this community. Gosh, Vince, you not only beat up yourself, and me, but now the members of this community too?!! That's too much. I did not make a blanket condemnation of your person. I was responding to the way one post that you had written came across, and still comes across. I haven't changed my mind about that. I regret now, with perfect hindsight, that I did not simply write out the words of the just war theory and what I thought of it. In your message you seemed to be pounding into the ground what Kakki had said about the Catholic Church being pacifist. Your attempt at gentleness did not work. I responded to the emotion behind what you wrote. For you to take my message as your entire essence being attacked is an overreaction, perhaps caused by the emotional stress of these times. I hope later you will not see my message as something destructive. It was not meant to be, and I'm very sorry it has added to your distress. Debra Shea you have taken my words as complete Either I am not > worth speaking up for because you as a group perceive me as being > anti-people, or because no one values me enough to say a word on my > behalf, or because you think that I am so tough that I can laugh this > stuff off. As for the last. I hurt, too, I bleed as easily as any other > wounded person. And as for the others, that confirms this is not a > community for me. > > And that some people think I am upset because of a opinion difference > rather than the personal attack, well, what can I say. Have it how you > see it; I know how it hit me like a rock in my stomach. > > As far as my not being a part of the JMDL - I will deeply miss a lot of > it. What Les has accomplished is, and it is Les who I am feeling badly > about, because he did not create the JMDL for people to hurt one > another, but what Les has accomplished is a rare gift in the world. I > have communicated privately to Les and tried to say what I need to say > to that good man. > > You all won't miss me. A month from now I'll be a faded memory, in six > months a trivia question/answer if anyone remembers me at all. Life > will go on for us all, and this JMDL will do just fine without me. > Obviously. > > Next time someone throws the word "anti" at someone in here, the next > time someone goes in rhetorical overkill and plunges a dagger into the > heart of another, will anyone care? I hope the next person so assaulted > fares better than me, and finds someone to intercede on their behalf. > > for the last time: > > (the Rev) Vince ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 14:08:17 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: grief and hurt(njc) Mack, I think this makes you a great American. You are active in an organization you believe in, you care about issues that are important to you & you speak your mind against what you think is wrong. Maybe I missed the anti American sentiment or maybe I just have a high tolerance for accepting the good & the bad things that our country has done both domestically & internationally. I also must speak up on behalf of Kakki. Even though we have different political views at times, I highly respect her for her sincere questioning & deep caring & her generous nature. We all need to remember to seperate the issue from the person. Mack wrote: "I am not the best American.I did not vote for George Bush and am against practically everything that hestands for. I have been very active in the ACLU and have often, more than not, been against what our government is doing, in many different areas." ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 15:53:26 -0600 From: "shane mattison" Subject: you're o.k. emails people can take the wrong way. i took that you all meant well... you're o.k.! shalom, shane ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 00:01:47 +0200 From: "Marian" Subject: Re: I can do this one last time NJC Hey everybody! Vince Lavieri is not anti-anyone!!!! I'm apologize, Vince, for not noticing that someone accused you of being anti-something. Please don't punish me for not paying attention!!! I always hated it in school when the teacher punished the whole class for one person's transgression. Please don't leave. You add a lot to the list. Love, Marian marian@jmdl.com http://www.jmdl.com/guitar/marian/guitar.htm Vince Lavieri wrote: > That no one jumped up and said, "hey, > Vince is not anti-anyone" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 00:08:13 +0200 From: "Marian" Subject: Re: Top Ten Island Discs Ron Greer wrote: > 03 - mary chapin carpenter - hometown girl Oh my god! This made me remember Mary Chapin Carpenter's 10,000 Miles!!!! Such a beautiful song! Marian Vienna marian@jmdl.com http://www.jmdl.com/guitar/marian/guitar.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 14:48:43 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Subject: Re: victor johnson!!!!!! (njc) And another Big Happy Fecking Birthday from me to you too Victor!!!!!! Have a wonderful day! ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 00:09:30 +0200 From: "Mike Pritchard" Subject: Re: racial tension in unexpected places NJC >>Its been a long time since I'd encountered a hostile audience and this was an audience at a museum of art, the last place one would expect to find rampant jingoism. << Maybe the following essay is not strictly about 'rampant jingoism' but it is about things that one sometimes finds in art museums. It comes from the book "Out There: Marginalization and Contemporary Cultures" edited by Russell Ferguson, Martha Glever, Trinh T. Minh-ha and Cornel West, published by MIT Press 1990. I quote, (and edit where indicated). It is by John Yau and discusses the Cuban artist Wilfredo Lam. "Wilfredo Lam's 'The Jungle' hangs in the hallway leading to the coatrooms of the Museum of Modern Art. Its location is telling. The artist has been allowed into the museum's lobby, but, like the delivery boy, has been made to wait in an inauspicious passageway near the front door. By denying Lam the possibility of going upstairs and conversing with Paul Cezanne, Pablo Picasso, Jackson Pollock, and Frank Stella . the museum relegates 'The Jungle' to a secondary status. This action is the result of numerous assumptions nearly everyone in today's mainstream art world takes for granted. In fact, such assumptions are an integral part of the art world's institutions (museums, galleries, and magazines) as well as of its individuals (curators, editors, critics, dealers, and collectors)." Lam was the son of a Chinese father and Afro-Cuban mother, ancestor of a runaway slave and godson of a Yoruba priestess. While imprisoned on the island of Martinique he formed a lasting relationship with Aime Cesaire, one of the founders of the negritude movement. When he returned to Cuba in the 1940s he rejected the idea of painting 'for tourists' because ".it had nothing to do with an exploited people, with a society that crushed and humiliated its slaves. No, I decided that my painting would never be the equivalent of that pseudo-Cuban music for nightclubs. I refused to paint cha-cha-cha. I wanted to work with all my heart to paint the drama of my country, but by thoroughly expressing the negro spirit, the beauty of the plastic arts of the blacks. In this way I could act as a Trojan horse that would spew forth hallucinating figures with the power to surprise, to disturb the dreams of the exploiters. I knew I was running the risk of not being understood by either the man in the street or by the others. But a true painter has the power to set the imagination to work, even if it takes time." Yau claims that Lam's picture's placement is based on (MOMA Director) William Rubin's estimation of Lam's achievement. This estimation, according to Yau, is misleading and insensitive, and Rubin considers Lam to be 'a minor artist who belonged to a minor group' (the Surrealists). He described Lam's paintings: "Such paintings as Lam's 'Antillean Parade' contain a fusion of influence as diverse as Haitian voodoo figures and African masks. From the penumbra of bamboo and palm frond forests that form Lam's primal landscapes, emerge hybrid personages whose presences seem to be discovered in the very defining of the flora." This 'forest' misrepresented Lam's intentions. As Lam said "In any case the title has nothing to do with the real countryside of Cuba, where there is no jungle but woods, hills and open country, and the background of the picture is a sugar-cane plantation. My painting was intended to communicate a psychic state." Yau continues: ". in their concern with aesthetic issues, the art world's institutions have consistently ignored and suppressed how American artists have transplanted the polymorphous process of their cross-cultural experience into visual evidence. Although Wilfredo Lam was a black artist from the Americas who addressed this issue, Rubin's colour blind response is typical of the art world's insensitivity." "For Lam, Surrealism was an aid to recovering his African heritage. Certainly Cesaire was as important an influence as Breton and Picasso. Rubin's writings reverse Lam's intentions. They place him back in the disapora. This reversal is doubled by the museum's placement of 'The Jungle' in the lobby." The essay is called 'Please Wait By The Cloakroom' mike in barcelona. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 18:21:34 -0400 From: Brian Gross Subject: 10 desert island picks (10% jc, of course) this should be easy, right? ha!!!!!!! in no order, except as my cds are racked here in the office: loreena mckinnett - the mask and mirror karla bonoff - all my life (her best of, gee, i hope that doesn't get me kicked off the island) natalie merchant - ophelia laura nyro - stoned soul picnic (another best of, i think i'm pushing my luck here) fairport convention - meet on the ledge joni - court and spark (the middle of the holy trinity) john prine - john prine (hey, i hope there's some of that bc bud growing on this island, i could use an illegal smile) stan rogers - home in halifax eleanor mcevoy - yola (thank you, garrett) j.s. bach - bwv565/bwv582, as played with all his soul be e.power biggs in june 1960 brei, with over 300 mails to skim/read/delete (in the last 3 days) - -- After twenty-three years you'd think I could find A way to let you know somehow That I want to see your smiling face Forty-five years from now. --Stan Rogers ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 15:33:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re:In the background Willy the Shake wrote: I love Joni's back harmonies. From Woodstock To Off Night Back Street She does such a great back up for herself so oft. Favourite back up? I too have been noticing Joni's back-up of herself - again. After the early years when I needed to submarine into every song lyric, back-up , musician, I haven't even listened that closely or as much in many many years! But I have been listening to "Hits" lately as a personal exercise for myself. The backgrounds on the simplest songs are great! Chelsea Morning, Woodstock, You Turn Me On I'm a Radio ... ya know maybe I have mislabeled them. After all, just because they were "Hits" so to speak, I was assuming their simplicity, as in Top 40 - pop. Here there are all these layers dove tailing together so beautifully! Not to mention the conga drum that I am thoroughly enjoying in "Big Yellow Taxi" & the bass on "Carey." JESUS it's like my eyes have just opened! - or my ears. Lastly, there is a clapping or perhaps it's a percussion piece of some sort in "You Turn Me On" along with her own harmony that was so nice to get into as well. This may be a fun thread. Find a Joni layer, instrument or vocal you may not have noticed before or in a while and point it out for all of us. Who knows the real musicians may even find some new treasures .., thanks Willy for the thread and getting our minds back on Joni. Peace Susan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 18:41:14 -0400 From: Mags Subject: Re: grief and hurt(njc) Please let me clarify to you Lieve.... my comment to leave Kakki the feck alone was not meant for you and you alone. I reacted to many, many incidents of posts which flew Kakki's way. I was and continue to stand up for my sister who I feel has taken way more than her share of flack for stating her feelings. On many occasions, she has stated clearly that she feels that LA is still very much under threat . I am afraid for and with her. I can understand why Kakki is finding this whole situation very traumatic, and therefore she deserves to be able to speak and not be attacked again and again for every minute detail of her well articulated, thought out posts. (and yes many of us are traumatized by this terrible event) . Which is probably why Im writing to this again. Please understand the incredible stress and duress this has caused and has made its way deep inside souls including mine. Mags, who promises that this will be the last post on this matter. Thank you. np: The Hissing of Summer Lawns. ... ReckersL@ebrd.com wrote: > Victor, > just a very quick reply. I genuinely don't have the time to keep debating > this, so any further criticisms of my piece will just have to stay up there > without me trying to defend myself. I have seen Mags and Mack's replies and > so this is also a partial reply to them, but some of what they say, although > I disagree strongly, I will have to let go. I'm not trying to have the last > word or convert the world. > Let me simply say this. I am not "making quick judgments about people that > I haven't met" as you claim. I have stated my genuine feeling that I think > Kakki is a good person for whom I have respect. But she did say, most > clearly quite a while ago (sorry if you can't find it, I have not kept it > either but I know what I read) something like "Oh I wish people who are not > American would just shut up for a while and let us get on with our grief". > The same sentiment still echoed by Mack now. My only point was that the > grief is not exclusively American, that we are just as depressed and hurt > here. I could not have felt differently if the planes had gone down in > Liverpool or Brussels. In addition, we in London feel probably more > vulnerable as potential targets than some people in the States should feel, > which adds to our feeling of gloom and direct involvement. But it seems my > hurt and sleepless nights don't count compared to what someone in the States > is feeling, so even if I disagree with her on some political points or > theological points, I should not give my opinion because it might upset her! > Well great, that's put me in my right place hasn't it! (I realise this is > not a point you made, Victor, but some of the other messages did, and it > took me right back to that office and the military parade 20 years ago.) > One last thing: this is an e-mail list. Sorry that I have not (yet) met the > other listers in the flesh as you have done. But that is no reason why I > can't read and understand what people are saying on e-mail, and reply to it, > in what I thought was a reasonably courteous manner (until I was asked so > courteously the shut the feck up...). I repeat, I did not jump to quick > conclusions, I did not judge anyone. Maybe you did so with me, though? > Anyway, thanks to the many more listers who have sent me personal messages > of support, at least some people found my contribution useful, widening the > debate, which is all I wanted to do. > > Victor, as I don't write often I'll make the most of it now by smuggling in > something very different. I just wanted to say that I really liked your > "desert island disk" list, I made a note at the time thinking "must be a > nice guy" and you probably are, so I might as well share that with you! > All the best, > Lieve. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Victor Johnson [SMTP:waytoblu@mindspring.com] > Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 9:17 PM > To: ReckersL@ebrd.com > Cc: joni > Subject: Re: grief and hurt(njc) > > . Leive wrote: I find it extremely upsetting that you > claim all-American exclusivity to feelings of grief and hurt over > the recent > atrocities. > > I have not gotten this from anything that Kakki has written. Also, > I KNOW > Kakki and know that this is not true. Please everybody, refrain > from > making quick judgements about people whom you have never met before. > It > just leads to misunderstanding and unpleasantness. > > Victor in Athens > > NP: RUSH- Caress of Steel > > Victor Johnson > http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson > > "Velveteen rabbits and moonbeams, > Come when you lay down your head. > While you are sleeping, they kiss you and tell you, > That you are the reason the sun lights the sky." > Scarlet-V. Johnson > > EBRD SECURITY NOTICE > > This Email has been Virus Scanned - -- And this loving is a drawing close, a tuning in, an opening. Until one perfect moment; but how can it be expressed? A receiving, an enfolding as I cradle you in my arms. Within my heart, within my soul, You are my true love. --Lui Collins - --- _~O / /\_, ___/\ /_ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 18:46:27 -0400 From: Brian Gross Subject: Nuclear reactions run amuck on the jmdl With all the shite flying on the list these past 2 weeks, I have come to a realization. We have lost our control rod. The reactors are running wildly out of control. People who would have ordinarily spoken gently to each other are committing verbal assault. People are leaving, voluntarily and otherwise. These virtual streets are strewn with the remains of what used to be the most wonderful place in all of space, cyber and real. GET OVER YOURSELVES, PEOPLE Marcel, where are you when we need you most?????????? a very disheartened Brei on erev Yom Kippur - -- After twenty-three years you'd think I could find A way to let you know somehow That I want to see your smiling face Forty-five years from now. --Stan Rogers ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 18:56:21 -0400 From: Yael Harlap Subject: being good to people NJC blonde in the bleachers wrote: >I am sorry but everytime I read some post of some one >having a little hissy fit and declaring they are leaving, it really makes >me want to laugh my ass off. You know, I usually stay out of these things but this pisses me off. Sometimes if you don't have something constructive to say it is better not to say anything. If Vince were the type of person to constantly threaten to leave, that would be one thing - I have been on lists where this has happened - some melodramatic person constantly threatening to leave in order to get sympathy. This isn't that situation. The Rev was clearly hurt by the emails going back on forth on this issue. Everyone who has ever felt that their words were misrepresented or misconstrued should be able to empathize. Whether the response to Vince was an attack or not is completely irrelevant, in my opinion. If we are a community here, and I sure as hell feel we are, though we don't need to agree, I think we ought to be considerate to others' feelings. What sort of way is it to resolve a misunderstanding (much less a conflict) to throw cold barbs at people who are feeling hurt? These past few weeks have been hard on us individually and collectively, wherever we are and whoever we are. Even if one are not directly affected by the terrorist incidents in the US, my sense is that everyone here feels affected. People I know and love on the internet and in real life have been stressed, and that brings all of our tolerance levels and personal defenses down a notch. I urge everyone to keep talking about these issues, keep talking about Joni, talk about whatever the hell you want, and DO speak up if someone hurts your feeling, DO be open to the process that we all go through as human beings in relationship with others. That process involves conflict resolution, and as someone else pointed out, we are feeling the need for it on this list as well as in the world at large. Now play nice, kids. And if any more of the people I love leave the list I will have to beat them up. :-) kisses, Yael >This is a hard time for everyone and >everyone has a different opinion and a different way of looking at >things, but just because some one may hurt your feelings or disagree with >your beliefs or in the heat of the moment write things that cause you >pain you can't go run away and say you will never post again, what does >that prove? Nothing, except you will miss out on great posts about Joni >Mitchell and her albums. Sometimes events transcend the actual point of >this discussion list, and this one rightfully should, it effects >everyone, but we are a diverse community with different ideas and >beliefs, and sometimes passionate debates are bound to happen. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 19:07:40 -0400 From: Anne Sandstrom Subject: was that a hoax??? (njc) Oh, darn. I deleted the digest in question. Anyway, Bush didn't REALLY ask performers not to record sappy records did he? (Go ahead, laugh at me, but I could believe almost anything these days.) Anyway, I got a chuckle out of it. There was a memorial today for the flight crew of AA Flight 11 on Boston's City Hall Plaza. They released 22 white doves for the 22 crew members - and the doves flew away, of course. Bette Midler sang "Wind Beneath My Wings." While she was singing, the doves came back and flew over the thousands of people gathered there. When Bette finished, she sat down and sobbed for pretty much the rest of the memorial. I guess I'll add my $.02 about the current high emotions on this list. We're all in mourning. But unlike when we typically mourn, there is no 'safe haven' where we can go to escape this. It's everywhere. It's all of us, the whole world over, actually. And venting is a coping strategy. It's normal to say and do things we might not say or do under 'ordinary' circumstances. It's also normal to be angry. We (the civilized world) have been wronged. Maybe, to let people selectively wade through the volume of posts, it might be helpful to label the subject with (political content) or (religious content) or even (venting) just for a while. Just for a while. OK, go ahead, I expect (oh, who does this so well??? well, you know who you are) to come up with yet another list of acronyms to make us all smile and laugh at ourselves a bit. Like (TSGA - There She Goes Again) lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 16:25:56 -0700 From: "Russell Bowden" Subject: Desert island CDs JC Gang, Easy. Joni..Hejira, DJRD, NRH (if I had to go with top 3 Kathleen Battle Schubert Lieder Bob Dylan....Blood on the Tracks Rachmaninov...Vespers All Night Vigil Robert Shaw Joni...For The Roses (Hey!! How did you get in here??!!) Mozart Cosi fan Tutte...Bohm conducting..Schwarzkoph, Krause, Taddei Beethoven...Fidelio...Bernstein...Janowitz, Kollo How many am I allowed?? Of course the ideal thing (for me, anyway) would be if Joni and I were in the same shipwreck and I swam her to safety and became her Platonic slave....well...I can DREAM can't I?? Oh, and lots of batteries for my Discman or whatever sound system. Gorgeous in San Francisco....the weather, that is. Love, Russ _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 19:29:48 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Happy Trails to you In a message dated 9/26/01 4:55:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, groovchacha@yahoo.com writes: > Rev. Vince wrote: > ...In that we have reached a point where a discussion of > historical fact leads to charges of my being > vehemently anti-Catholic then whatever I am doing > here is not doing any good, I did not receive Rev. Vince's post from which this is quoted, but the feeling I get from this statement is that he is (or was) a member of this list to serve some sort of pastoral function, either to preach to us or to educate us about religion, specifically his view of religion, then he was on the wrong list. I believe in free expression, and I take advantage of that belief by expressing my views fairly freely, and if someone thinks I'm not a nice person, then so be it. Most of those who have met me or taken the time to get to know me, know better. But I did not come here, and I do not think most of the rest of us come here, for either a sermon or a Sunday School lesson. I don't know if Vince is a real reverend, and frankly, I don't care. If he wants to be part of this group and share our discussion about Joni and her music and how it might affect our lives in general, fine. But if he is here to act like the Rev. Vince, then good riddance. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 16:33:35 -0700 From: "Russell Bowden" Subject: One more desert island.. SJC Gang, Crosby Stills & Nash Daylight Again, CSN and Greatest Hits....with the Joni painting. Love, Russ _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 16:43:54 -0700 From: "Russell Bowden" Subject: Thomas Merton plug NJC Gang, if you haven't read Merton, I really suggest The Seven Story Mountain. Beautifully written and filled with great ideas. One of the two books I've actually ever highlighted parts of. Love, Russ _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 19:57:00 EDT From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Leavings NJC Rev Vince posted this in a recent digest: << That no one jumped up and said, "hey, Vince is not anti-anyone" between the time that the post was made and the time that I read it, that says something to me about where I fit into this community. Either I am not worth speaking up for because you as a group perceive me as being anti-people, or because no one values me enough to say a word on my behalf, or because you think that I am so tough that I can laugh this stuff off. No, No, No! Please do not think that! For myself, I am on digest and for the past few months have only skimmed them. Heck I spend more time clipping out lima bean recipes than I do reading the digest. Let me say it right here, right now: Vince is not anti-anyone. I've gone through the past few digests now and have frankly enjoyed the exchange of ideas and thoughts. I'm in awe of the intellectual power on this list: Kakki, Mary P, Kate B, Vince and more. My Belleville High School roots don't stand a chance in this company. But then something happens. The exchanges go from being simply that to these yelps of "hey don't pick on Kakki!" or "you can't make judgements like that about people you haven't met." and I'm thinking: Jesus, Mary and Joseph, give it a break. I've been a member of the JMDL since close to the beginning and believe me, I've seen flame wars. Mean, rotten, nasty postings that do nothing more than rub those treadmarks in deeper. The back and forth Catholic stuff has not been anything more than fact, conjecture, opinion, fact and back and forth some more. Frankly, I enjoyed reading them. Why is it so easy to get bent out of shape? And now some of our best list ambassadors, Vince, Paz and a few others have left. And frankly, I don't think that they are leaving because people disagree with them, I think that the quick to see insult finally ends up cutting too deep. If there's any message in here at all that I want to say it's this: "Vince, get your butt back here on the list." Really. We sure won't forget you in a month or more and you make us all the more rich because of who you are. Lastly, I for one, enjoy the various threads of debates. I find them awfully educational and wish that there would be a way to weed out the perceived insults. WTC tragedy notwithstanding, we do operate at a higher velocity of feelings here over just about everything. Maybe we just need to pretend we are talking about GAAP. At the very least, we'll be asleep before the next post hits the inbasket. MG As for the last. I hurt, too, I bleed as easily as any other wounded person. And as for the others, that confirms this is not a community for me. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 18:09:48 -0600 From: evian Subject: 10 desert island picks njc Ok, this looks like fun to do again: In no particular order, really: 1.) If I can only bring one Joni, this month it would be Hejira or DJRD, but probably Hejira since it is always playing in the baby's room. However, next month it will be different (HOSL is a close runner-up) 2.) Hole -- Celebrity Skin 3.) Kate Bush -- The Red Shoes 4.) Wes -Welenga 5.) JT -- Hourglass 6.) Stevie Nicks -- Trouble in Shangri-la (even better than Bella Donna & Rock a Little!!!) 7.) U2 -- Joshua Tree 8.) Prince -- Purple Rain 9.) The Cure -- Disintegration 10.) 10,000 Maniacs -- Unplugged - -- oh dear, no Fleetwood Mac....... I ain't going on this hellish island...... Evian ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 19:15:21 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: happiness njc Here is something a little different. May seem trite but I found it amusing so here it is. A few years ago I took a plant out of my mother's yard and planted it in my own. It was a violet covered flower that I really liked and thought that since there were two, we could both have one. It grew and grew and this was 8 or so years ago. Now it stands 15 feet or so but has done nothing. Didn't have a clue as to what it was and since I initally thought it was a plant I put it right next to the house. Too close and crowded the house so I thought of chopping it down last spring. A few minutes ago I was out refereeing between my two dogs since one has decided she likes to beat the other one up. I walked past this growth and looked down for some reason and there, on the ground, beneath it was an apple. How do you like that? I am really happy. Apple trees don't grow real well here in central Texas and rarely see one. Now I have my own. Just wanted to share that with someone. thanks for listening. mack ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 18:22:51 -0600 From: evian Subject: first records and such njc Hmmm, lemme think: I am sure that my first album was either an April Wine album (can't remember the title) or this K-Tel album called "Right-On!". I remember buying them in grade one, but don't know which one was first. As for 45's, I can't seem to remember at the moment. I remember buying some Peter Frampton 45, although I can't think of what song it was. I also remember buying Blondie's "Heart of Glass" when I was in grade 3, but I am sure that I would have bought something before then.... hmmmmmm, this will annoy me until I remember. I remember having something called "Juanita Banana" but I am sure that I didn;t buy it myself. First cassette was Fleetwood Mac's Mirage, and the only 8 track of my own that I had was given to me, and it was Supertramp's Even in the Quietest Moments. My first cd was, if I remember correctly, Peter Gabriel's Shaking the Tree, and Cyndi Lauper's True Colors. First Joni was Blue. First time I got drunk was after drinking a bottle of apricot brandy in 1985.... My first kiss was from this girl named Delilah.... The first time I...... oops, got a little carried away with these firsts! ;) Have a lovely evening listas! Love y'all, Evian ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 18:32:21 -0600 From: evian Subject: fave songs njc 10 fave songs... hmmmmm: 1.) U2 -- The Unforgettable Fire 2.) FM -- Silver Springs (or Gypsy if I can only pick one) 3.) Carly Simon -- Touched by the Sun 4.) Joni -- Amelia 5.) Elton John -- Your Song 6.) Prince --When Doves Cry 7.) JT -- Only One (it's the baby's favorite song!!!!) 8.) Plimsouls -- A Million Miles Away 9.) Genesis -- Home by the Sea 10.) Hole -- Malibu That is too hard! Evian p.s. -- on my list of albums, I forgot Bruce Hornsby's The Way it is and Mellencamp's The Lonesome Jubilee.... NP -- Diana Ross -- "Swept Away" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 20:37:17 EDT From: StDoherty@aol.com Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2001 #298 Would it be possible for me to get another copy of: onlyJMDL Digest Wednesday, September 26, 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 299 I deleted it before I opened it and lost it! Thanks ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 17:33:37 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Subject: Re: Happy Trails to you (Quicksilver Messenger Service version) NJC Vince, I am one of your biggest fans. I am not sure what happened that made you feel no one was speaking up on your behalf. If it is not too late I would like to thank you for your heartfelt & deep questions. I am struggling just to keep up with the posts, to read some of the links posted to digest all this information & to post occasionally when it is easy for me to do so. I know so little about Catholicism or justifiable wars so there is no way I could be qualified to comment on these issues. I am still trying to formulate some ideas based on many things I have been reading. And I still have one more jonidigest to read before I am caught up. I hope you will stay with us or if you must go, that you will soon return. Peace & Love, Kate Vince Lavieri wrote: My leaving will surely be an answer to some people's prayers... > > Good-bye all. > > (the Rev) Vince ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 22:01:28 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Subject: Re: Happy Trails to you (Quicksilver Messenger Service version) NJC dear vince, i am practically choking to death from my spring allergies and i have dragged myself out of my death bed to tell you: reconsider. many of us don't write because we simply delete delete delete. so have mercy and don't give me any more discomfort: stay. wally ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 18:14:29 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Subject: FW: The Challenge of Terror: A Traveling Essay - NJC and very ve ry long Marian, Please do not stop sending things like this. This was the most grounded & brilliant peice I have read so far of all the links & articles I have been sent. He eloquently was able to put into words what I believe to be true. This is an essay I plan to send on to many folks... >>>>I promise I won't send any more long things like this, but this one is so well-thought-out, so thought-povoking, I think many of you will find it worth the time it takes to read it. Marian<<<<< ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 22:23:30 EDT From: BachelorNumero2@aol.com Subject: top 10 ok......my 10 discs I smuggle to the island: madonna - Like a Prayer liz phair - Exile In Guyville beatles - Abbey Road steely dan - Katy Lied todd rundgren - Hermit of Mink Hollow xtc - Skylarking joni mitchell - The Hissing of Summer Lawns aimee mann - Whatever sly and the family stone - Anthology prince - The Hits/B-Sides NP: "Rock the Casbah" - The Clash PHIL ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 22:35:51 -0400 From: "jlamadoo, home account" Subject: Re: My Top 10 Desert Island Discs- Tougher Version, njc This is easy. Top Ten desert island, right? Am I right? See, to me, music is just something I have on in the background, right? I don't really CARE that much, see? I just put it on to stop me from thinking. So, I suppose Time-Warner knows good music better than I do, so I'd have to go with: 1. Time-Life series: "Best Of 1980" 2. Time-Life series: "Best Of 1981" 3. Time-Life series: "Best Of 1982" 4. Time-Life series: "Best Of 1983" 5. Time-Life series: "Best Of 1984" 6. Time-Life series: "Best Of 1985" 7. Time-Life series: "Best Of 1986" 8. Time-Life series: "Best Of 1987" 9. Time-Life series: "Best Of 1988" 10. Time-Life series: "Best Of 1989" Unless I'm being facetious. Lama ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 19:30:13 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: My thoughts on pacificim njc Debra wrote, >>>>I've seen a few mentions on this list of the Vietnam War. In my opinion, comparing this situation with the Vietnam War is completely off-base. Other than the guerilla warfare tactics of the enemy, there are no similarities. Peace demonstrations? That idea obviously comes from people who have not sucked in some of the "dust" everyone here has been breathing, and who have no true conception of the amount of the destruction here.<<< Debra, Try as I might, I can't really imagine what you have been through & are still experiencing & I thank you & everyone for taking the time to write your experiences & share them with all of us. I believe the mentions of the VN War you refer to were related to questions regarding an effective anti-war movement rather than anyone suggesting there are similarities between Vietnam & our present situation. I agree with you that the only similarity is the extremely valuable lesson we learned there about guerilla warefare. Peace demonstrations- I have been to several peace vigils. To be with other people who are in mourning but also to be with those who are using all their prayers & voices & visionary abilities to support & influence a solution to this awful situation that will be wise & long reaching. >>>>In my opinion, to proclaim "peacefulness" is trying to wish away the evil that's already shown itself, and that we've been promised will continue to show itself, and to not do what must be done to stop it is immoral.<<<< That is not what I believe. When I speak of peace or pacifism it does not mean that I am wishing away what has happened or that I just accept what has happened or that I believe that we should do nothing. Being a pacifict is a lot of fecking hard work, especially now. Not the kind of hard work that it takes to sort through the rubble of the WTC ruins or to go back to work on a subway that takes you close to where this horrible thing happened. But on another level, on an emotional & soul searching deep level it is work. I think we all want the same thing in the end. Peace, prosperity (for all), joyful lives. Some of us just disagree on how to achieve this. The post Marian sent earlier said it far more eloquently than I can. So I will just requote a few of the most profound statements I read there: "our response to the immediate events have everything to do with whether we reinforce and provide the soil, seeds, and nutrients for future cycles of revenge and violence. Or whether it changes" "What we need to destroy is their myth not their people" "this is not a struggle to be conceived of in geographic terms, in terms of physical spaces and places, that if located can be destroyed, thereby ridding us of the problem" "political leaders wishing to end the violence believed they could achieve it by overpowering and getting rid of the perpetrator of the violence. That may have been the lesson of multiple centuries that preceded us. But it is not the lesson from that past 30 years." "If we would bring the same energy to building an international coalition for peace in this conflict that we have pursued in building international coalitions for war...I believe the moment is right and the stage is set to take a new and qualitative step forward." "I believe that monumental times like these create conditions for monumental change." "Let's do the unexpected. Let's create a new set of strategic alliances never before thought possible." "Our challenge, as I see it, is not that of convincing others that our way of life, our religion, or our structure of governance is better or closer to Truth and human dignity. It is to be honest about the sources of violence in our own house and invite others to do the same." "Such a web of ethics, political and religious, will have an impact on the roots of terror far greater in the generation of our children's children than any amount of military action can possibly muster." ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 22:58:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: victor johnson!!!!!! (njc) - --- Susan Guzzi wrote: > Happy Birthday to one of the sweetest souls I have > ever met - Victor Johnson! Happy birthday, Victor! I'm still about 200 posts behind and reading them backwards - what the feck is going on around here anyway> Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 23:07:53 -0400 From: Mags Subject: Re: Happy Trails to you IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > > <> Class act of the most callous kind paul. Congratulations. How mean can you get btw? Do tell. NO, dont bother. You already showed me. Mags, ashamed of herself for not sticking up for the Rev Vince sooner. > > > > Paul I - -- And this loving is a drawing close, a tuning in, an opening. Until one perfect moment; but how can it be expressed? A receiving, an enfolding as I cradle you in my arms. Within my heart, within my soul, You are my true love. --Lui Collins - --- _~O / /\_, ___/\ /_ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 23:12:59 EDT From: PMcfad@aol.com Subject: merton njc a thread on pacifism led to some posts on merton. my only addition to shane's post below....merton was a staunch sacramentalist who believed deeply in the exchange of simple elements of bread and wine. he had his eastern bent, but his daily life evolved around the psalms and eucharist and that remained constant up to his untimely end. he was essentially catholic. and a pacifist. and he was at the end, and in his purest stage, a simple monk with a loving heart. that said, shane's post on merton was pretty damn exact and accurate. some people have left the list. i've always felt that leaving the list is a good thing if one feels so inclined. i'll miss vince and roberto. they both held peaceful presences here on the list. but again, it remains the lister's choice to leave. i have to hope it was right for them. but i hope they both come back in due time. pat > Thomas was always first and foremost > interested in the mystical and poetic side of life, and became a > devout practitioner of meditation. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 20:22:25 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Happy Trails to you NJC > I think our discussions ARE peaceful. Not easy, not comfortable, but not > warlike either. > > No one here has said everyone must think or feel a certain way, or been > deliberately insulting or hurtful to people who don't completely agree. > That's when the wars start. That's not been the case here. > > Debra Shea I don't think that's been the case for the most part, either. I don't know if it's recent events or if it's really the norm here but it seems to be that a lot of people are being entirely too thin-skinned lately. I also think that if people really took the time to read each other's posts carefully and really think about what the other person is saying, a lot of this could be avoided. I've seen a lot of people going back to their original messages to point out what they actually *did* say as opposed to what somebody else read into it. If there are going to be heated political/religious debates I wish that people would at least do one another the courtesy of really paying attention to what someone is saying & carefully reading all of it before firing off an emotional response. Even after that, I would strongly urge people to try & think as calmly and rationally as possible before replying to someone. Words written or spoken in the heat of anger or other emotion are almost always regretted at some point. I don't subscribe to the JMDL at work. I get home around 5:30 and read my email. Since I joined this list (almost at its inception) I have read almost every single email that people have posted. Some of it hasn't even interested me that much. I read it anyway. Don't ask me why. By the time I get around to responding, the threads are cold or most people have signed off or gone home for the day. So I often feel left out of most discussions. As a rule I don't contribute to political discussions because I am dismally uninformed about such things and don't feel qualified to join in. But I read most of them and usually learn something along the line. Anyway, after sitting in front of a computer & reading email all day at work, I only have a certain amount of mental energy left for the JMDL and personal correspondence. I try to keep up with a few people who have become very special to me here. Others I would like to correspond with on a more regular basis but I'm afraid some have given up on me when my responses are few & long in coming. Lately the volume of mail on the list has become overwhelming. I am tired. I am tired of trying to defend people when there seems to be somebody new every day whose feelings are hurt or feels they are being attacked. I'm tired of logging on & finding that yet another person who has contributed to this community consistently and well over a long period of time has left it. I'm tired of wading through post after post of arguing back & forth. I'm tired of feeling even more tired after a tiring day at work when I come here to read mail that used to make me feel refreshed & good. I've enjoyed so much about this list over the years. I've always supported an open discussion list. But now I'm wondering if Joni only might be the way to go. I agree with Ashara. Leaving isn't the answer. I'm not quite ready to do that. But I am so very tired. Mark E ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2001 #444 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?