From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2001 #442 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Wednesday, September 26 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 442 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: victor johnson!!!!!! (njc) ["hell" ] victor johnson (NJC) [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: Re; Questions NJC very long, njc, totally political [Vince Lavieri <] partial concise chronology of 20th century events in Palestine - NJC [M.] NJC Re: VLJC - 10 desert island songs [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] NJC Re: Shelby Lynne and (?) Marti Jones (njc) [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] RE: grief and hurt(njc) [ReckersL@ebrd.com] Happy Trails to you (Quicksilver Messenger Service version) NJC [Vince La] Re: Happy Trails to you (Quicksilver Messenger Service version) NJC [Jerr] RE: Happy Trails to you (Quicksilver Messenger Service version) N JC [M.R] New member - welcome! [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] RE: Happy Trails to you (Quicksilver Messenger Service version) N JC [M.R] JMDL Digest V2001 #299 ["Bill O'Neill" ] Re: (njc) Dionne, and sililarity of taste... [Coyote4Joni@aol.com] Re: Happy Trails to you (Quicksilver Messenger Service version) NJC [Tima] NJC Re: (njc) Dionne, and sililarity of taste... [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Catholic Church, The Rev, etc. (njc) ["Jenaya Dawe" ] Re: My Top 10 Desert Island Discs- Tougher Version [Coyote4Joni@aol.com] Re: (njc) Dionne, and sililarity of taste... [Reuben3rd@aol.com] Re: Happy Trails to you (Quicksilver Messenger Service version) NJC [Coyo] Re: goodbye (njc) ["Lori R. Fye" ] Jerry NJC [Steve Polifka ] Re: goodbye (njc) [Jerry Notaro ] Klingerman virus hoax ["Lori R. Fye" ] Re: Jimi (NJC) ["Timothy Spong" ] Re: Jerry NJC [Jerry Notaro ] Top Ten Island CD's NJC [Steve Polifka ] Re: Happy Trails to you (Quicksilver Messenger Service version) N JC [Ash] RE: grief and hurt(njc) ["Bree Mcdonough" ] kakki ;joni;thomas merton ["shane mattison" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 23:43:51 +1200 From: "hell" Subject: Re: victor johnson!!!!!! (njc) > happy birthday, victor!!!!!!!! Happy fecking birthday, Victor! Hell ____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Hell's Personal Photo Page: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/main/personal.htm Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://www.nbls.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 08:28:00 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: victor johnson (NJC) To the person who taught us all the "Happy F**king Birthday" Song: Happy Birthday Victor!!!! If I had the carrot flute, I'd play you a tune. Have a great day! Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 08:35:28 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: Re; Questions NJC very long, njc, totally political > " > > The USA is not bombing civilians in Afganistan, n Not yet, Jim, not yet, but according to our government, war is coming. I have asked: are you ready to do this? > or crashing planes full of > civilians into high rises. For goodness sake, here, Vince. Have you lost > it? Are you seriously equating bin Lauden's guilt for terrorism, with our > supposed guilt for *conducting military espionage on terrorists*? That is not a phrase that I ever use - "military espionage" is not a phrase or concept in the questions that I posed. > You can > hold 'em up together but they have nothing in common. Nothing. C'mon. > Killing school kids is "like" spying on terrorists? Mend your speech a > little, lest you mar your fortunes. Again, I never spoke of spying on terrorists. Totally unsure of how this is a response to what I have written. It is easily possible that with the deluge of posts that some things have gotten mixed up, Jim, again, listen to all of the news. The build up to support war by demonizing the Taliban, and Bush's own speech before Congress, make clear that the Taliban will be the object of our attack. Read the posts in the JMDL which speak of war against the Taliban. You have pulled of my statements out of context and not answered them in the fullness of the questions. However, I give you much thanks for your answering in that so many people have not even tried to think these things through, and I thank you.. > > > Vince, no one is talking about taking military action against the Taliban > because we trying to do a hostile takeover, promoting democracy. Read what > you wrote. This is not about declaring war on a government. It's about > declaring war on terrorists. Wrong Jim, The state department just today has been pondering who they will find to replace the Taliban. Might I suggest NPR as a good place to get news. > Are you implying that if we DON"T dismantle > the terrorists, that they will go away? You imply that if we inflame the > terrorists, that we become the terrorists. That if we try to stop > terrorism, we are responsible for the death of innocents. > > This is clearly absurd. You surely assume that the us military knows at > least a little about the Taliban already. If we have gathered intellegence > on the Taliban, then by your accusation, the US military brought on the > attacks. That's absurd. That is absurd and I have never said that the military brought on the attacks,. > Maybe you're thinking "turn the other cheek" but > IMO, this is more like me giving up whole classrooms of school children > because of someone else's hangnail. There's a difference in degree that you > aren't getting at all. I will ignore the slam, Jim, as I very clearly get the difference. The question: do many others? This is not a school yard spat. The death toll proposed will make the death count of September 11 seem small. I think I very clearly suggested alternatives: world tribunal. Thanks for the reply Jim, and may God bless everyone in these days. (the Rev) Vince ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 14:40:34 +0200 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: partial concise chronology of 20th century events in Palestine - NJC Sorry, but I am sending another long one - please forgive me. As a balance to what Laurent just sent, this text may help to put Middle Eastern terrorism in its proper political/historical context. + + + + + + + 1914 With the outbreak of World War I, Britain promised the independence of Arab lands under Ottoman rule, including Palestine, in return for Arab support against Turkey which had entered the war on the side of Germany. 1917 Lord Balfour, the British Foreign Secretary sent a letter to the Zionist leader Lord Rothschild which later became known as "The Balfour declaration". He stated that Britain would use its best endeavors to facilitate the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people. At that time the population of Palestine was 700,000 of which 574,000 were Muslims, 74,000 were Christian, and 56,000 were Jews. 1919 The Palestinians convened their first National Conference and expressed their opposition to the Balfour Declaration. 1920 The San Remo Conference granted Britain a mandate over Palestine and two years later Palestine was effectively under British administration, and Sir Herbert Samuel, a declared Zionist, was sent as Britain's first High Commissioner to Palestine. 1922 The Council of the League of Nations issued a Mandate for Palestine. The Mandate was in favor of the establishment for the Jewish people a homeland in Palestine. 1936 The Palestinians held a six-month General Strike to protest against the confiscation of land and Jewish immigration. 1939 The British government published a new White Paper restricting Jewish immigration and offering independence for Palestine within ten years. This was rejected by the Zionists, who then organized terrorist groups and launched a bloody campaign against the British and the Palestinians. The aim was to drive them both out of Palestine and to pave the way for the establishment of the Zionist state. 1947 The United Nations approved the partition under which the Palestinian Arabs, who accounted for 70% of the population and owned 92% of the land, were allocated 47% of the country. (UN resolution 181) Approximate population of Palestine: 1,650,000 Palestinians and 750,000 Jews. April-May 1948 Massacres of Palestinians by Zionist groups such as the Stern Gang and and Irgun throughout Palestine. (This was Menechem Begin, who pioneered truck bombs in hotel basements and crowded streets) Prior to the establishment of Israel, two major terrorist groups moved to the forefront of performing violent acts against civilians. Headed by future Prime Minister Menachem Begin, the National Military Organization, also known as Etzel or Irgun, preached a philosophy promoting the killing and maiming of Arabs in order to drive them out of the land divinely promised for a Jewish state. The other was the so-called Stern Gang, the "Fighters for the Freedom of Israel," also known as Lehi (Neff, 1998). The two groups together were the most active in performing violent acts targeted at Arabs and their supporters. 1948 British forces withdrew from Palestine in May and the Zionists proclaimed the state of Israel without defining its borders. Arab armies moved to defend the Palestinians. 1949 A cease fire was finally agreed. The Zionists controlled 77% of Palestinian land and over 1 million Palestinians were forced to leave their country. The West Bank was put under Jordanian control and the Gaza Strip under Egyptian control. Article 49 (6) of the Geneva Convention IV states: the occupying power (Israel) shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies, it also rejects and forbids the settlement of Jews in the West Bank area. The Israeli government allows only a very few Palestinians to return after the war is over. By 1950, over one million Palestinians live in UN-supported refugee camps in Gaza, West Bank, Lebanon, and Jordan. 1967 Approximate population of Israel and Occupied Territories: 1,660,000 Palestinians and 2,384,000 Jews. The 1967 War begins June 5th with Israel occupying the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and Jerusalem. UN issues Resolution 242 demanding Israel to withdraw from the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Approximately 250,000 more Palestinian refugees flee, or are forced into Jordan. After the 1967 Six Day War, Yassar Arafat is announced the leader of the PLO. So since the UN butchery of Palestine in 1949, the Zionists have taken over the rest, including Jerusalem, the historical Palestinian capital. The violent events of September and October, 2000 mark the end of the Oslo accords. The 1993 Oslo Accord, whereby Israel recognized the PLO and gave them limited autonomy in return for peace and an end to Palestinian claims on Israeli territory, had already been largely criticized as a one-sided accord, that benefits only Israel, not the Palestinian people. Ariel Sharon was a military general who oversaw the massacre of thousands of Palestinians in refugee camps in Lebabnon in the early 1980s. Accompanied by 1000 soldiers, he visited the Temple Mount (AKA Haram al Sharif (Noble Sanctuary) by the Muslims) and proclaimed it as eternal Israeli territory. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 08:57:30 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: NJC Re: VLJC - 10 desert island songs <<4. Paperback Writer (The Beatles). >> I would be hard pressed to pick even my top ten BEATLES songs, but this one would surely make the cut. It had the distinction of being the first song I ever "recorded", that is to say the first one I ever transferred to another media. My sister had the "Hey Jude" LP, and I had been given a little portable reel-to-reel recorder. I put Paperback Writer on tape, and used to listen to it every night with one of those little white earplugs...remember those? After awhile it got so gunked up with earwax that it was too gross for EVEN me. Bob NP: XTC, "Jump" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 09:06:24 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: NJC Re: Shelby Lynne and (?) Marti Jones (njc) <<(when did that come out, by the way, and it is generally availble?). >> It was a 1992 release, Walt, and it's now out of print. It was tape treed here in '99, and I've since converted it BACK to CD and can make you a copy if you're interested. It's adventurously different...like trying to get used to your best friend with a new haircut. <> Looks like her earliest (pre-1996) material is not readily available, but GEMM (www.GEMM.com) has a pretty good selection, even offering Match Game for about $6! Good luck! Bob NP: XTC, "Gold" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 14:10:06 +0100 From: ReckersL@ebrd.com Subject: RE: grief and hurt(njc) Victor, just a very quick reply. I genuinely don't have the time to keep debating this, so any further criticisms of my piece will just have to stay up there without me trying to defend myself. I have seen Mags and Mack's replies and so this is also a partial reply to them, but some of what they say, although I disagree strongly, I will have to let go. I'm not trying to have the last word or convert the world. Let me simply say this. I am not "making quick judgments about people that I haven't met" as you claim. I have stated my genuine feeling that I think Kakki is a good person for whom I have respect. But she did say, most clearly quite a while ago (sorry if you can't find it, I have not kept it either but I know what I read) something like "Oh I wish people who are not American would just shut up for a while and let us get on with our grief". The same sentiment still echoed by Mack now. My only point was that the grief is not exclusively American, that we are just as depressed and hurt here. I could not have felt differently if the planes had gone down in Liverpool or Brussels. In addition, we in London feel probably more vulnerable as potential targets than some people in the States should feel, which adds to our feeling of gloom and direct involvement. But it seems my hurt and sleepless nights don't count compared to what someone in the States is feeling, so even if I disagree with her on some political points or theological points, I should not give my opinion because it might upset her! Well great, that's put me in my right place hasn't it! (I realise this is not a point you made, Victor, but some of the other messages did, and it took me right back to that office and the military parade 20 years ago.) One last thing: this is an e-mail list. Sorry that I have not (yet) met the other listers in the flesh as you have done. But that is no reason why I can't read and understand what people are saying on e-mail, and reply to it, in what I thought was a reasonably courteous manner (until I was asked so courteously the shut the feck up...). I repeat, I did not jump to quick conclusions, I did not judge anyone. Maybe you did so with me, though? Anyway, thanks to the many more listers who have sent me personal messages of support, at least some people found my contribution useful, widening the debate, which is all I wanted to do. Victor, as I don't write often I'll make the most of it now by smuggling in something very different. I just wanted to say that I really liked your "desert island disk" list, I made a note at the time thinking "must be a nice guy" and you probably are, so I might as well share that with you! All the best, Lieve. -----Original Message----- From: Victor Johnson [SMTP:waytoblu@mindspring.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 9:17 PM To: ReckersL@ebrd.com Cc: joni Subject: Re: grief and hurt(njc) . Leive wrote: I find it extremely upsetting that you claim all-American exclusivity to feelings of grief and hurt over the recent atrocities. I have not gotten this from anything that Kakki has written. Also, I KNOW Kakki and know that this is not true. Please everybody, refrain from making quick judgements about people whom you have never met before. It just leads to misunderstanding and unpleasantness. Victor in Athens NP: RUSH- Caress of Steel Victor Johnson http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson "Velveteen rabbits and moonbeams, Come when you lay down your head. While you are sleeping, they kiss you and tell you, That you are the reason the sun lights the sky." Scarlet-V. Johnson EBRD SECURITY NOTICE This Email has been Virus Scanned ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 09:17:25 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Happy Trails to you (Quicksilver Messenger Service version) NJC Debra, long time good friend, the passions of the moments are over taking us. One may argue when I wrote "vehemently" but to say that I do not like the Catholic Church is wrong. I think emotions are running way too strong within us - - more on that in a minute, dsk wrote: > Vince, it's obvious from the way you've written so vehemently that you > don't like the Catholic Church. So, join the crowd. I'm not about to > start defending the Catholic Church because Lord knows I have plenty of > complaints myself about it. Be that as it may, the impression you've > given regarding its stance on war is not completely accurate. > > The Catholic Church has a bloody history. No question. However, the just > war theory is NOT the excuse for indiscriminate killing you paint it to > be. I never said that the ust war theory was an excuse for indiscriminate killing. I never said that. > It is NOT doctrine. Yes it is. > It's not even solely Catholic; And I never said that it was. Debra also wrote: So dogma, doctrine? C'mon Vince, you know better than that. Indeed, I do, Debra. It is. And I don not accept the just war theory as far as that goes. But I avoided that argument so as not to cause more fighting in the JMDL and I won't do it now. I would refer you back to Mary Pitassi's posts on the subject, very well written and thorough. The idea of the Roman Catholic Church as an anti-war or pacifist church is historically totally wrong and it continues to be a wrong characterization of the church. That I said objectively, as objectively as I could and leaving out a whole lot of present day material because I did not want to cause offense, what I said about the Roman catholic church is on point, despite the examples of blessed individuals with the RCC. Again, I rely on Mary's posts. I say the same conclusion about the Lutheran Church (for different reasons) which ordained me, despite the examples of individuals within who are the church. The same would be true of other church bodies as well. And I tried to write that as gently as possible to Kakki when the issue came up. I tried to say it very gently. Debra, we have been long time friends. I am hurt and stunned by your wording of your post. This hurts me in a way that few things could. If the passions of these days lead to you attacking me for being "vehement" about "not liking" the Roman catholic Church when discussing a historical factual matter, then I must look at myself and ask if I am contributing anything good here at this time and whether I am receiving anything good here now. These times seem unconducive to good things happening. I know that it really hurts when you of all people use these characterizations to label me as has been done in your post. I note no one else has jumped in to say a word for me. I now get to go to work with a new and painful burden in my soul. In fact I am now late for work because the pain of this has caught me in a way that I did not expect. In that we have reached a point where a discussion of historical fact leads to charges of my being vehemently antiCatholic then whatever I am doing here is not doing any good, and the attacks by this friend and silence of others tells me that it is time for me to go. I am making no contribution in here if *this* is how what I wrote is interpreted. The fault must surely be mine and this new level of pain in my heart caused by one friend's words and other friends' silences lets me know that it is time to go. I never mind when people disagree with me but this type of attack is just a burden that I don not need to have in these days in my nation's history, as I struggle with doing the work of the Gospel in my ministry, in my other day job, and as I worry about my Marine son. I have enough pain and have enough burdens without this. My leaving will surely be an answer to some people's prayers... Good-bye all. (the Rev) Vince Les, I will email you separately and let you know how I wish to accomplish this. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 09:22:09 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Happy Trails to you (Quicksilver Messenger Service version) NJC Vince Lavieri wrote: My leaving will surely be an answer to some people's prayers... > > Good-bye all. > > (the Rev) Vince Vince, I hope you will reconsider. And if not, that you will return when the smoke clears. I will miss your posts. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 15:24:33 +0200 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: RE: Happy Trails to you (Quicksilver Messenger Service version) N JC On 26 September 2001 15:17, Vince Lavieri [SMTP:revrvl@chartermi.net] wrote: > My leaving will surely be an answer to some people's prayers... > > Good-bye all. > > (the Rev) Vince I think it is a mistake for you to leave, Vince. Marian ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 09:25:58 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: New member - welcome! <> Wow - Bahrain! Another new "pin on the map"! :~) Welcome, Khalil...please tell more about how you came to know about Joni during the time of "Desert Storm". Bob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 15:43:59 +0200 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: RE: Happy Trails to you (Quicksilver Messenger Service version) N JC On 26 September 2001 15:17, Vince Lavieri [SMTP:revrvl@chartermi.net] wrote: > I note no one else has jumped in to > say a word for me. Again, here is another battle, and I didn't get the specifics because I didn't read the arguments and personal attacks. Probably a lot of other people didn't either. I didn't jump in to say a word for you because I didn't realize that anything was going on, Vince, not because I thought you were wrong or not worth defending or I don't know what. Debra and Vince, you both contribute so much to JMDL. Please let's try to stay engaged and have peaceful discussions. If we of all people on earth can't interact peacefully, how on earth can we expect that the Palestinians and the Israelis or those in Northern Ireland will ever find peace????? Love from Vienna, Marian ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 06:53:40 -0700 From: "Bill O'Neill" Subject: JMDL Digest V2001 #299 Hi, I'm Bill, a new member of the list. I've been a fan of Joni since I first heard her in the 70s ("Clouds"). What recordings, legitimate, bootleg or otherwise feature Joni Mitchell and James Taylor. If these recordings exist when and where were they recorded and what songs are on them. I've heard "Circle Game" with Joni and James and I expect that there were others. It's my understanding that J & J were having a passionate affair both romantically and musically and that "Blue" was the product of their breakup. Thanks. Bill ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 09:52:51 EDT From: Coyote4Joni@aol.com Subject: Re: (njc) Dionne, and sililarity of taste... In a message dated 9/25/01 7:21:57 PM Pacific Daylight Time, BigWaltinSF writes: << Dionne did a Brazil CD!!?? >> Walt: Yes, she did and it's my favorite (albeit overproduced) work of hers in years, right next to the Cole Porter album. She's in great voice. It is called Aquarela Do Brasil, released in about 1995, as I recall. You may recall the song Captive of the Heart which was the only one I heard get any radio play. The last time I saw her at the Hollywood Bowl, the first half of the concert was all her big hits. Kinda ho-hum for me, but great singalongs. Then she totally blew me away with the second half which was several numbers from the Brazil album. High energy, lots of dancers and this amazing Brazilian (?) male vocalist (brain fade on the name) with whom she performed a couple of duets live and on the album. She had a blast and so did the crowd. My favorite comment of the night came from a young girl in front of me who remarked to her friend of the same age, "My mother made me come tonight. She's okay, but she doesn't sound like Whitney Houston." If you wanna hear something scary, someday check out her work with the HipHopNationUnited. In this unfortunate compilation she sends a valentine to the hip hop artists she once slapped around for the lyrics they sang. Coolio, Flesh-n-Bone, and Kurupt are all there. Dionne rapping? What the world needs now is love. No regrets, Coyote Rick Casa Alegre Hollywood, California ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 09:54:49 EDT From: TimandMaryPowers@aol.com Subject: Re: Happy Trails to you (Quicksilver Messenger Service version) NJC In a message dated Wed, 26 Sep 2001 9:18:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Vince Lavieri writes: > Debra, long time good friend, the passions of the moments are over taking us. > One may argue when I wrote "vehemently" but to say that I do not like the > Catholic Church is wrong. I think emotions are running way too strong within us Hello, I feel bad now because I've been rather emotional myself lately. I was unfair to you in a previous post. Anyway, I feel like I'm just getting to know you and I hope you don't leave. (and now, a word in praise of my employer, the US government): I think we all can see why the government can't come up with an easy solution to this mess. If we can't agree, and we are a microcosm of the population - with exceptionally good taste since we all love Joni, I might add, think how hard it is to get agreement from people all over the world. Not to say the government has done everything right, but there are really no easy answers here when there is such strong emotion and so many different points of view. I'm glad I work for the Environmental Protection Agency, not the CIA or FBI. Mary ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 09:59:27 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: NJC Re: (njc) Dionne, and sililarity of taste... <> If she had REAL *psychic friends*, they would have told her this was a shitty idea! :~D Bob NP: XTC, "Knights in Shining Karma" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 06:42:45 -0700 From: "Jenaya Dawe" Subject: Catholic Church, The Rev, etc. (njc) I've stayed out of this because I don't have the time or energy to speak coherently on the subject. I have 2 minutes before class this morning and there's two things I have to get out of my system: The Catholic Church is not, and never was, in any way whatsoever, "staunchly pacifist". Vince Lavieri is an excellent human being and an important member of this list. That he's been treated in such a way is inexcusable. He simply stated facts - it's not about liking or not liking anyone. Lots of other conversations on the list include the exchange of facts and opinions without attack, why not this one? Jenaya... who was raised to think Catholics are very nice lunatics. Vince, I'm sorry I didn't say anything earlier - I didn't think it was going to be necessary. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 07:05:36 -0700 From: Phyliss Ward Subject: Email from a Hero (long & NJC) My sister sent me this email written by one of the rescue workers who is the son of a friend... I just came back from the WTC site again after another 36 hours there this time at "Ground Zero." I am safe and unhurt, at least physically. To my friends, please bear with me for the next few weeks. I know I am going to be more than a bit rocky emotionally for sometime. I don't think I will ever be able to tell all that I have seen. I don't think I want to or even will be able to. However, there are several things that I think people should know and think about. First, I need to talk about all the people I just spent the past 36 hours with. They are incredible beyond belief! 4:30 am Friday morning, when I returned to the WTC site, I headed straight to the American Express building (Financial 1). There, within minutes, I joined a small team of dedicated EMS workers. There were two firefighters from Rhode Island, one who had driven 20 hours nonstop from Dallas, Texas. Also, a wilderness EMT/avalanche recovery technician from Colorado who had been on vacation in New Jersey and came straight to help the moment the news came over the TV. We became inseparable. Throughout our time onsite, we worked shoulder-to-shoulder and hand-to-hand with EMS volunteers who had driven from Cincinnati Ohio, Palm Beach County Florida and Ottawa, Canada. At one point, a 12-man search and rescue team from France joined us arriving with their translator, two truckloads of specialty rescue equipment straight from Newark airport. It was the & "World " Trade Center. It has become a "World" rescue and recovery team -- brothers/sisters in solidarity, with a common cause to help rescue and recover. Then there were the volunteers. I have never seen anything like it. Civilians were helping and willing to do anything and everything. Cleaning floors so no one slips, carrying armloads of bottled drinking water to the rescue teams, handing out food, blankets or even, in one case, just guarding the rest of utterly exhausted sleeping EMS workers collapsed on blankets in open hallways. There were no arguments heard, nothing but help and assistance at every turn. I can't count the numbers of times I had to turn volunteers down because I couldn't drink anymore water, eat another bite of food or need another pair of socks. I lost track of the number of lives and injuries saved or prevented on the site both to myself and countless others. Every time I or someone else slipped on rain slick metal with twenty to fifty foot plus drops ending in jagged metal awaiting us, instantly at least three hands would grab you from every direction to prevent you from becoming part of the debris. I can't count the number of times I saw peoples lives saved or my own by our nameless brothers to whom we stood adjacent. More importantly, I can't thank them enough. Everyone there was amazing beyond belief. Many of the acts of heroism I saw that day will never be accounted and most will forever defy proper description. Finally, upon my return home I have to thank my next-door neighbors for opening their home to me. They talked and comforted me for almost two hours after I came home. Their compassion was boundless. Working at ground zero we uncovered a stairwell in the remains of Tower 1 where firefighters had been trying to evacuate people. Each time we brought out a firefighter, every man (four to five hundred of us in that line) would drop hard hats to the rubble pile in respect to the fallen heroes. Ironworkers, EMT's, volunteers, and firefighters all stood unprotected amongst the debris field until the stretcher had cleared the chain. Most of us touching in honor the shattered fire fighter helmets placed at the top of the bag before they were passed on. The entire line silent while their remains were passed from hand to hand out of the debris. The feeling of camaraderie, loss, sorrow and anger defy any description with which to do it justice. This describes the hardest moment I have ever been through in my whole life. At one point, I was standing on a hundred square foot side of building one, sixty feet above the remains of West Street. Every foot and a half was a three foot hole 8 feet long with at least a 15 foot drop onto jagged metal, shattered glass and iron rebar spikes. At least twelve of us were perched up there holding onto a litter containing a fallen firefighter. I was about to pass it on when a man placed his hand on my back and stopped me. I stood there stunned as a fire fighter Chaplain standing at my shoulder moved next to me to the head of the litter and administered last rights to his fallen comrade high above most of the visible wreckage. I remember passing the litter on after he had finished, I then stepped out of line and sat down. I have no recollection of the next ten minutes. I know the tears ran down my face carving channels as they weaved through the thick soot and ash, coating my face. Finally, there was an amazing response to my last email. Emails and even phone calls from all over the world -- something I never imagined or expected at the time I wrote it. Many have asked what and if and how they can help. There is something. This was not just an attack on people; it was also an attack on the financial stability of the United States and the world. In the past week, most businesses have reported over a 70% loss in revenue since last Tuesday. No one is going out and buying any goods or services. If not checked early, the economy of the United States and the world could also crumble and fall into ashes, like the twin towers (even as we hope for it's transformation -- a phoenix of rebirth and glory). So please everyone go back to doing things. Buy movie tickets and go see them, buy new cars if you need or want one. Help to keep the economy going. No economy, no money to go after the terrorists who perpetrated this catastrophe. One last thought before I go. When the stock market opens on Monday, if you have the money please buy some stock. We can't afford to let the market crash because of this cowardly attack on our people and on the financial capital of the world. Will I go back again some asked? ... Every chance I get that they will let me in. It's the least I can do for all the others who long to be here, but can't. God bless and take care all. Many hugs and tears Craig I have another roll of film from "Ground Zero." I am not releasing these photos, unless someone specifically requests them from me. The devastation is exponentially worse that the original pictures I sent out--I kid you not. At the site where these pictures were taken grown men, experienced fire fighters and paramedics, broke down and cried upon just viewing the wreckage. As you walked through it at times you would look down and realize you were walking on top of a shattered fired truck or ambulance. A member of my team in the morning lasted 15 minutes before she lost it and just went home. She never even set foot outside the lobby of Financial building 2 and into the wreckage of "Ground Zero." At the camera store, the manager who has developed hundreds of rolls from the site in the last few days told me that this roll was the most moving and showed the worst devastation of any he had yet seen. So, please think twice before asking for the photos. - -- Phyliss mailto:phyliss@goldenfigclay.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 10:11:29 EDT From: Coyote4Joni@aol.com Subject: Re: My Top 10 Desert Island Discs- Tougher Version Okay, Hell, now I am inspired: No order and subject to change mid-list: 1. Lucky Girl - You Know Who 2. Carole King: Caanan 3. Stones: Can You Hear Me Knockin'? 4. Dionne (her again): Virou Areia 5. Rundgren: Can We Still Be Friends? or Want of a Nail (damn, can't decide) 6. Dan Hartman: Vertigo/Relight My Fire 7. Donna Summer: MacArthur Park Suite (note: 6 and 7 are very long, so, cheating here) 8. Led Zepplin: Over the hill... 9. Billy Idol: Eyes Without a Face 10: Diana King: Say a Little Prayer No regrets, Coyote Rick Casa Alegre Hollywood, California ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 10:20:24 EDT From: Reuben3rd@aol.com Subject: Re: (njc) Dionne, and sililarity of taste... Coyote Rick wrote: >>In this unfortunate compilation she sends a valentine to the hip hop artists she once slapped around for the lyrics they sang. Coolio, Flesh-n-Bone, and Kurupt are all there. Dionne rapping? What the world needs now is love.<< Or at least earplugs! How horrible...I'll have to find a copy :) I love recordings where artists perform totally out of their area of expertise. Sort of a sickening bravery. I just got a 45 of a single called "Whatever Happened to Baby Jane?" featuring Bette Davis and Debbie Burton...horrible horrible, horrible...thank you ebay. Reuben Reuben ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 10:29:10 EDT From: Coyote4Joni@aol.com Subject: Re: Happy Trails to you (Quicksilver Messenger Service version) NJC Vince, I, like Jerry and many, many others will also miss your contributions to the JMDL. Please don't depart feeling your friends' silence meant anything personal toward you. I, for one (and I know a few others), haven't been reading ANY of the recent debates about our foreign policy, the Church, or pending international conflicts. I did read your farewell post after reading Jerry's comment about your departure. It's clearly not that I don't care, or don't have strong opinions myself, it's just not what I come to this place to find. Just like I don't watch CNN or Meet The Press for music appreciation. There may be many more of your friends here on the JMDL who haven't been following these threads. But they are there for those who do have a passion for the subjects. Thank God for that and our other freedoms. Vince, again, of all those who are taking a JMDL break of late, I will miss your contributions the most. Come back real soon, it's a good place. No regrets, Coyote Rick Casa Alegre Hollywood, California ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 07:34:18 -0700 (PDT) From: "Lori R. Fye" Subject: Re: goodbye (njc) Heather wrote: Oh now look what has happened!! At 09:18 PM 9/24/01 -0700, Robert Holliston wrote: >Friends, >It's been an extraordinary three and a half years, and I'll remember it, >and you, forever. >But the time has come for me to say addio. > >Very best to all, >Roberto And judging from the lack of commentary on subsequent digests, no one has noticed this, or asked why. Does anyone know? Are we driving long-time (and short-time) listers away with our vitriol? I hope not. Lori in DC ~ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 10:00:48 -0500 From: Steve Polifka Subject: Jerry NJC hey, Why do we always have to dig up Jerry's past? Just go to the library. I think there is a reference book on him... (tee hee) Steve >Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 16:02:48 EDT >From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com >Subject: Poor Old Jerry NJC <> >What do you mean? Jerry can not only tell you his first Edison >Cylinder but also his first cave painting! :~D >Bob Steve ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 11:02:46 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: goodbye (njc) "Lori R. Fye" wrote: > > > And judging from the lack of commentary on subsequent digests, no one has > noticed this, or asked why. Does anyone know? Are we driving long-time > (and short-time) listers away with our vitriol? I hope not. We are. It makes me very sad. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 08:14:35 -0700 (PDT) From: "Lori R. Fye" Subject: Klingerman virus hoax Everyone, If you receive an email regarding the "Klingerman virus," which arrives via snail mail in a suspicious "blue envelope," it's a HOAX. Please see this CDC link: http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/klingerman_hoax.htm Lori, disgusted with this kind of crap in MD ~ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 15:20:24 From: "Timothy Spong" Subject: Re: Jimi (NJC) On Mon, 24 Sep 2001, at 23:04:13 EDT, FredNow@aol.com wrote in Re: 10 desert-island discs: > >"Laurent Olszer" wrote: > > >Has any JMDLer ever seen JIMI live? If so, could you please describe your >impressions. > >Can't remember, so I guess I must have. > >- -Fred Simon Well, I saw, and heard, Jimi Hendrix (I presume he is the subject) live sometime between January and June 1970, i.e., spring semester of my senior year at Duke U. -- at least, I think this was the time frame, tho' it could have been a bit earlier -- in the large enclosed facility at the North Carolina State Fairgrounds on the edge of Raleigh. I am unable to recall the name of the building right now, but it is a cylindrical building with an angled, saddle-shaped roof. Another building of the same plan is the Capital (or Capitol?) Center at Landover, Md. Because of the design and the lack of significant soft surfaces, there are multiple echoes, but they don't usually overwhelm the sound. It is not an ideal concert venue, but an adequate one. Jimi and his band gave a typical performance. As best I remember, Jimi played his Stratocaster behind his back and with his teeth. I don't recall if he set fire to it. I can't list what was played, but most of the well-known pieces were represented. I'm certainly glad I went. It turned out that there wasn't a second chance. Tim Spong Dover, Del., U.S.A. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 11:45:19 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Jerry NJC No wonder Kakki said I looked much younger than she thought when I first met her. Y'all make me sound like Methuselah! Jerry Steve Polifka wrote: > hey, > Why do we always have to dig up Jerry's past? Just go to the library. > I think there is a reference book on him... > (tee hee) > Steve > > >Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 16:02:48 EDT > >From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com > >Subject: Poor Old Jerry NJC > > <> > > >What do you mean? Jerry can not only tell you his first Edison >Cylinder > but also his first cave painting! :~D > > >Bob > > Steve ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 10:51:43 -0500 From: Steve Polifka Subject: Top Ten Island CD's NJC >Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 18:35:09 -0700 >From: "Kate Bennett" S>ubject: Subject: Top Ten Stranded on an Island CD's...NJC >OMG, Steve Polika!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (your check is in the >mail...hahaha....)re: >Marc Cohn- you know which one it has to be!!!!!!!!! Hey Kate... Yea, yea, his first CD... lol And I'm ashamed to say I couldn't remember the title of your CD, but I love it. You are on the top of my list right now... Hugs, Steve p.s. And the check is in the mail... LOL~! cute... Steve ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 11:53:44 EDT From: AsharaJM@aol.com Subject: Re: Happy Trails to you (Quicksilver Messenger Service version) N JC Marian wrote: > Please let's try to stay engaged and have peaceful discussions. If we of > all people on earth can't interact peacefully, how on earth can we expect > that the Palestinians and the Israelis or those in Northern Ireland will > ever find peace????? I couldn't agree more. My silence stem from a way I choose to live my life. When there is bickering going on, for the most part, I choose to not take part in it. It has nothing to do with not supporting or not standing up for people I care for.When you have a "tug of war" and one end "drops the rope" there is no battle anymore. There can't be. This is what I think: The JMDL has been a beacon of light, over and beyond other lists, over and beyond many other communities. It has been largely a tolerant place filled with intelligent people where people have, for the most part, respected and honored each other. We have celebrated each other's differences, respected differing opinions, and largely been a kind and caring family. There have been many times I have almost unsubscribed myself, but haven't because of the community that has developed here. It is breaking my heart that people are leaving right and left because of the bickering. Many people have asked that cooler heads prevail. This is a very difficult time in ALL out lives. ALL of us- Christian, Jew, Muslim, Pagan, Black, White, rich, poor, thin, fat, American, those from different countries, ALL of us from every walk of life. We have ALL been touched by this tragedy, and our lives will never be the same. NONE of our lives will ever be the same. We have seen the unthinkable. We have moved into a world that we never thought could be. Our nerves are frayed, our emotions high, and understandably so. I believe we are not thinking with the clearest of heads, or showing our best sides at this time. I flew this past weekend on 4 different flights. I wasn't afraid to fly, but was extremely emotional walking down the corridors of Logan airport, thinking of the many acquaintances and those I didn't know from Flight 11 and 175 that had walked those same pathways only days before, expecting a safe and uneventful flight. Mine *was* uneventful, and I thank my lucky stars that it was, especially since in today's Boston paper there was an article stating how law enforcement agencies, testing the security system, were able to get through security with a pocketful of bullets, and a large buck knife. We live in a different world now. Each day that we are able to come home to our families and friends, into their loving arms safe and secure, is another day to feel blessed. Over 6,400 people cannot do that. We are so blessed to have this caring community to come "home" to, to share with, to communicate with. It is IMPERATIVE that we come together and find peace within ourselves NOW. It is important to have *respectful* differing opinions. It is how we learn and grow. But I believe each one of us has a responsibility to each other to try to find peace here, within ourselves. We are a microcosm of the world. It saddens me to lose even ONE of our valued members, let alone the many numbers that have left recently. Michael, Vince, Roberto, and all others that have left, or are considering leaving, please rethink your choice. We need each other. For what it's worth, with hugs, Ashara ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 09:07:37 -0700 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: RE: grief and hurt(njc) >>in what I thought was a reasonably courteous manner (until I was asked so >courteously the shut the feck up...). I repeat, I did not jump to quick >conclusions, I did not judge anyone. Lieve. When I joined this list I thought it would be full of grown-ups. Anyone into Joni's music must be mature and open-minded? I don't know now? I always cringe when I hear the words shut-up.......I guess because growing up my mother would not allow us to say SHUT-up to siblings or anyone for that matter. Sorry, Lieve, I thought this list was supposed to be free-flowing, you know, give your opinion and if I so choose, I'll give mine. I'll SHUT-UP now with this in mind, Joni would NOT like us trying to gag each other when we don't like something they said.... that is not what she is about. (Lieve, hope to see you at Jonifest next year..hang on,...it will be a bumpy ride! (levity) Bree _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 10:20:37 -0600 From: "shane mattison" Subject: kakki ;joni;thomas merton thanks so much kakki...i think yes you'd have liked what he stood for. yes i read that joni said a couple of times in interviews that she reads or has read merton...she and tom merton are my two favourite people... (i too almost became a monk!) i imagine that joni might like a number of things about thomas merton: 1) tom is primarily an artist, one of the finest poets to be found. he also produced beautiful chinese calligraphy and photographs of nature. many of his writings are full of the profoundest humour as well. 2) like joni, tom wanted to be a universal person. He was born in prades france, schooled in England, of american parents with a new zealand background. He loved jazz and writing- he did his master's thesis at columbia on william blake, while joining his often radical writer friends at jazz joints down on 52st - - where he undoubtedly saw america's living jazz legends. He was a partier too! He and his friends hung out with a guru named bramachari, who recommended to him that he study augustine's confessions. Then he experienced regeneration and became a catholic, then a trappist monk. After a while, he was illumined by visiting downtown louisville one day ("i loved those people") and dedicated himself to zen, the peace movement, civil rights for american blacks, and studied wisdom from zen men, sufis, native americans, and protestants like Barth. He then had his reknowned eastern pilgrimage, met with the dali lama and other lamas, and died by accidental electrocution at a lecture of assembled christian and buddhist monks and nuns in bangkok... certain zen men called merton the 'buddha from the west,' though he would have just laughed! Curiously, the more universal he got, the more he at the same time remained a very orthodox christian believer...he just invented a new language for communicating the beautiful news about jesus ... 3) in his own way, thomas merton was a lover. Before his conversion, he partied 'too heavily' at Cambridge, taking out all kinds of gals, even getting one of them pregnant, for which he was exiled back to america. It is believed his ex-girlfriend and child may have perished in the blitz. There is a definite romantic element in merton's spiritual classics, and one could argue that he wrote some things, like poems and short stories, as if they were songs. Then as a mature monk and enlightened man, he fell in love with a young nurse when he was hospitalized with back problems (also shared with joni). His friends saw this as healthy and would set up romantic picnics for him and his 'girlfriend.' He loved her and she loved him, but he felt he couldn't give up his vocation after all. 4) though merton was alot older than joni (born 1916), his reputation became large with the sixties countercultural movements, so he got visits from people like joan baez, and friends would bring him beatles records. He even was attacked by female fans who snuck into the monastery property to his hermitage and jumped him in the woods! 5) thomas merton and joni mitchell have been accurately described as enneagram 'fours.' There would likely be a large share of 'fours' on this list. The four is a person who may have had some 'hole' in their childhood, absences and moving (like Tom's parents' early death, or joni's bout with polio). The orphan archetype then is a part of them, and their over-compensation for feelings of exile is to make them- selves "special" (i think pierre trudeau was one of the few 4's who were politicians, and yes, he and tom merton wore berets!!) ...this is a gift for art and beauty, ("please take notice - i shine!") but is also their dysfunctional motivation in the sense that they can stumble towards a certain elitism in being 'unique'. Inside of them is an an abandoned child crying to be noticed and 'accepted.' Their lifelong calling is to finally recognize 'right and wrong' and take up justice as a concern, forget themselves, and produce (work hard), and finally , see the sacred in the ordinary ...for this they need God's grace! The Dali Lama still refers to Thomas Merton as probably the one person on earth he was the most inspired with. He can still get his voice cracking and his eyes teary when he speaks of what he and merton could have done together for world peace. Merton was a centrist though, even though he wrote against the Vietnam War and warned of the military-industrial complex. He had no illusions of the soviets and communist chinese though. He wanted us to change certain blindspots that we ourselves have. I think he indicated he could understand a 'just war', but Vietnam wasn't one to him, but he didn't like ostentatious demonstrations and also pulled back and dissociated himself from 'draft card burnings' and building occupations and the like, though he remained friends with the berrigans and others. Thomas was always first and foremost interested in the mystical and poetic side of life, and became a devout practitioner of meditation. Joni has spoken of her buddhist practice side and its safe to say that she has an interest in Christianity too. They both shared a great interest in native spirituality. Recommended reading: Merton's "New Seeds of Contemplation" and google search for thomas merton sites. shane ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2001 #442 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?