From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2001 #440 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Wednesday, September 26 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 440 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- silliness, etc. ["Norma Meatheringham" ] Virus warning and questions NJC ["Garret" ] joni used in my classroom [christopher blake ] more than a couple of prophets? (sjc) [Anne Sandstrom ] more articles re: afghanistan NJC ["Kate Bennett" ] healing power of music NJC ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: 10 Desert Island CDs [Gary Zack ] Re: my father's passing (njc) [Bruyere ] Re: VLJC - First post and 10 desert island discs [Bruyere ] Re: First concert(s)? (NJC) ["jlamadoo, home account" ] inspiration and humor NJC [TimandMaryPowers@aol.com] Re: Kakki NJC [Bruyere ] grandchildren NJC [Vince Lavieri ] Re: VLJC - 10 desert island songs [<657174974@amena.com>] Re: first 45s, lps...(njc) ["Mark or Travis" ] Blind Faith (njc) [Vince Lavieri ] RE: JMDL Digest V2001 #439 njc ["Kate Bennett" ] RE: Questions NJC ["Kate Bennett" ] Subject: Top Ten Stranded on an Island CD's...NJC ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Shelby Lynne and (?) Marti Jones (njc) [BigWaltinSF@aol.com] Re: new york these days (NJC) [Catherine McKay ] (njc) Dionne, and sililarity of taste... [BigWaltinSF@aol.com] Re: grief and hurt(njc) ["Dolphie Bush" ] Re: VLJC - First post and 10 desert island discs [Catherine McKay ] Re: First concert(s)? (NJC) [Catherine McKay ] Re; Questions NJC very long, njc, totally political ["jlamadoo, home acc] Re: War/AntiWar/Church [long and NJC] [dsk ] do attachments work? (njc) ["shane mattison" ] [none] [=?iso-8859-1?q?khalil=20alkari?= ] RE: 10 desert island discs [M.Russell@iaea.org] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 16:43:56 -0600 From: "Norma Meatheringham" Subject: silliness, etc. we can all listen and sing a long with Eva as she sings Pete Seeger's 'Oh Had I A Golden Thread'... from her 'Songbird' or "Live At Blues Alley'. OH, HAD I A GOLDEN THREAD Oh, had I a golden Thread And needle so fine I've weave a magic strand Of rainbow design Of rainbow design. In it I'd weave the bravery Of women giving birth, In it I would weave the innocence Of children over all the earth, Children of all earth. Far over the waters I'd reach my magic band Through foreign cities, To every single land, To every land. Show my brothers and sisters My rainbow design, Bind up this sorry world With hand and heart and mind, Hand and heart and mind. Far over the waters I'd reach my magic band To every human being So they would understand, So they'd understand. Words and music by Pete Seeger (1958) (c) 1959 by Stormking Music Inc. ~~~~~~~~~~ Most of us go to our grave with our music still inside of us. Happiness comes through doors you didn't even know you left open. ~ Author Unknown I've learned that it takes years to build up trust, and it only takes suspicion, not proof, to destroy it. and finally, most important of all... (Gas Warfare Act) You may flatulate in front of a woman only after you've brought her to climax. But if you trap her head under the covers for the purpose of flatulent entertainment, she's officially your girlfriend. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 00:27:41 +0100 From: "Garret" Subject: Virus warning and questions NJC Thanks for the link Lori. I don't usually pay heed to viurs warnings becuse so many turn out to be dupes. In the last three days, however, i have heard on the radio, on the tv, and now on the list of current viruse. Also, two friends of mine got caught with some virus recently. I have a question for any techies on the list: should i really pay attention to these virus warnings? do they only activate (if that's the right word) when i open an attachment? or can they do harm merely through receiving them? how much sleep should i love?? bare in mind that a KAK (??) virus (apparently) destroyed my hard drive two months ago, and it had to be replaced. i don't know how we got it. GARRET ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 16:10:23 -0700 (PDT) From: christopher blake Subject: joni used in my classroom hi all! from time to time i actually write to you all, mostly i lurk and enjoy. i wanted to let all the jmdlers know that i have found a way to get joni's music into my 8th grade english classroom! I set up my class like a record label executives convention and had the students grouped by label. i then played three songs (real song titles/ficticious artist names) and the students have to compose, in groups, a persuasive essay to be presented in class tomorrow about one artist that they would or would not sign to their label. the three songs were: janis' acoustic 'me & bobby mcgee', frank zappa's 'peaches en regalia' and joni's 'big yellow taxi'[the 'friends' remix - i'm trying to be hip ya know]. i am waiting to see how many students choose joni and whether or not any of them will sign her. some students knew the song but said that they have heard it in a different form. i will post the results soon. p.s. to all the folks who attended new england's jonifest: i'm sorry i never got the chance to get there, this is my first year teaching and the dates were conflicting. please "stay in touch". have an awesome day - chris(topher) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 19:25:14 -0400 From: Anne Sandstrom Subject: more than a couple of prophets? (sjc) I've been listening to Night Ride Home. "Slouching Towards Bethlehem" is one of my favorite songs of hers. Maybe even my favorite. It's so eerily prophetic right now. (Yes, yes I know it's based on Yeats.) I even heard someone on NPR yesterday saying they couldn't find any appropriate poetry for these times. Her former English professor said with rather formal academic indignation "Have you forgotten your Yeats?" Anyway, if you look in the book we all signed at JoniFest, Ashara, you'll see that there's a picture of me (I think it's the first page) with a falcon on my gloved fist. I quoted STB below it. Seems rather weird now. I read the lyrics to my sister. She was totally spooked. And how's this for weird? My brother is a meteorologist for the National Weather Service down in the D.C. area. He tracked the tornadoes. They swept through an area I used to stay often (I dated someone down there a number of years ago.) Anyway, my brother got his tax rebate check yesterday. He went to sign it over to the fund for the firemen's families. When he saw the local address he was supposed to send it to, he realized the building had been destroyed by the tornado. "Surely some revelation is at hand..." lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 19:35:26 EDT From: TimandMaryPowers@aol.com Subject: Re: 10 desert island cd's I must say, I'm really surprised at the absence of Simon and Garfunkel from everybody's lists! my 10 1. Simon and Garfunkel, Tales from New York 2. Faure Requiem 3. Connemara Siren Song (a great Celtic CD with sea themes. On amazon) 4. Joni Court and Spark 5. Paul Simon Rhythm of the Saints 6. Mozart Requiem 7. Chopin favorites 8. Anonymous 4 Star in the East 9. Joan Baez Noel 10. Bach Mass in B minor If you have a chance, check out Connemara - they are great. Mary ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 19:38:09 -0400 From: Anne Sandstrom Subject: and one more prophet (njc) My favorite writer is Joni. My second favorite writer is Sebastian Junger. I've been collecting his articles since way before he became well known for his book "The Perfect Storm." Anyway, he did an article on Afghanistan last fall. He spent a month with the anti-Taliban resistance in the northeast and got to know Massoud, the leader who was assassinated on Sept. 9. Well, I finally went back to re-read it. And I happened to hear an hour long interview he did with NPR today. SJ still has contacts in the anti-Taliban forces and has talked with them since 9/11. Interestingly, he asked them if they wanted U.S. troops on the ground with them. They said, no, that the U.S. has already lost too many lives. They just want our help. (financial, advice, and weapons.) They really do know how to fight in that terrain. (No, I'm not advocating war, just stating what's likely, unfortunately.) He's got an article in this month's Vanity Fair about Macedonia. My first thought is "oh shit, you mean we have to worry about Macedonia now too???" And he was in Moldavia on Sept. 11, so I guess we can expect more cheery news from there at some point. Oh, and btw, he reported from Kosovo a year before the war there, kind of indicating what could (and eventually did) happen. I'd say, just stay home Sebastian, except for one small detail. He lives in Manhattan. I'm bummed I'll miss tonight's National Geographic channel program at 8:00. It will probably be really insightful. (yup, that's one final plea for someone to tape it) lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 16:42:38 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: more articles re: afghanistan NJC if anyone is interested learning more about the revolutionary association of the women of afghanistan, here is their website http://www.rawa.org/ and a year old article on the taliban & their training http://www.nytimes.com/library/magazine/home/20000625mag-taliban.html ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 16:45:46 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: healing power of music NJC http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2001/09/25/violinist/index.html ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 20:13:48 -0400 From: Gary Zack Subject: Re: 10 Desert Island CDs Here's my list and I'm sticking to it ;~D (for today) (in no particular order) 1) Laura Nyro - New York Tendaberry 2) Joni Mitchell - Ladies Of The Canyon 3) Jim Croce - I Got A Name 4) Michael Johnson - Then & Now 5) Brenda Lee - Little Miss Dynamite 6) Alanis Morissette - Spacecakes 7) Ella Mae Morse - Barrelhouse, Boogie And The Blues 8) Peter, Paul & Mary - Album 1700 9) James Taylor - Gorilla 10) Jennifer Warnes - The Hunter My first concert: Peter, Paul & Mary - this had to be in the mid 60s - they just blew me away.... My first Joni concert - Stratford 1969 at the Avon Theatre. Ian & Sylvia had played the night before. A few of us waited outside the stage door after the show, and they let us in to meet her. She was beautiful, just sitting on a plank perched between two sawhorses as I recall...I asked her if she'd be coming back to Detroit, and she signed the large program and the smaller insert leaflet for me. It was total love from then on....it's unbelievable that I still remember some of the songs she did from that show.... Gary ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 20:23:10 -0400 From: Bruyere Subject: Re: my father's passing (njc) My deepest sympathy Shane! Our loved ones my leave us but the most precious thing they leave behind are memories. My father passed on in 1995. He is with me always :-) Love to you with a huge hug- Heather At 12:25 AM 9/25/01 -0600, shane mattison wrote: >i just wanted to tell all my joni friends that my father just passed away >today due to heart failure. I gave him about 5 minutes of his last breaths >doing CPR. > >shane ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 20:25:53 -0400 From: Bruyere Subject: Re: VLJC - First post and 10 desert island discs Welcome Ayoze !! Don't worry ...English is my only language and I still have trouble with it ! :-) Heather At 09:24 AM 9/25/01 +0100, 657174974@amena.com wrote: >Hello all. > >My name is Ayoze, I'm a new Joni fan from Spain. And this, as you can >see, is my first post. I've been on the list for a week and just wanted >to add my own "top ten essential recordings" (whoa, that sounded >pretentious). > >Laurent Olszer wrote: >"I'd like to know what music JMDLers would take to a desert island, >where you'd be stuck for the rest of your life? >Please: no more than 1 album per artist. >Limit: 10" > >So here we go: > >Pet Sounds (The Beach Boys) >Armed Forces (Elvis Costello and The Attractions) >Highway 61 (Bob Dylan) >Lark's Tongues In Aspic (King Crimson) >Setting Sons (The Jam) >Court And Spark (Joni Mitchell) >Arthur or the Decline and Fall of the English Empire (The Kinks) >Remain in Light (Talking Heads) >Skylarking (XTC) >We're Only In It For The Money (Frank Zappa and the MOI) > >I enjoy a lot reading the list and hope to participate more in the >future, even if my English isn't very good. After all, SIQUOMB. > >Ayoze ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 20:34:53 -0400 From: Bruyere Subject: Re: Tornado in College Park, MD So glad that you guys are safe! Heather At 11:41 AM 9/25/01 -0400, TimandMaryPowers@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated Tue, 25 Sep 2001 12:44:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >Janet Hess writes: > > > Tonight several tornadoes cut through the Washington, DC area. The > campus of the University of Maryland, College Park, where Joni played in > the Joni-Dylan tour, was especially hard hit. Tragically, two people died > in a car on the campus. > >Hello, > >We were directly in the path of that tornado, which hit Laurel, MD >also. It took off the roof of the high school a couple miles from our >house. My husband was hiding in the laundry room with the cats (I wasn't >home). of course, one of the cats wanted to be right by the window and >watch everything. Our screen door was torn and we lost power but we're >OK. Trees down everwhere. > >Mary ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 20:59:17 -0400 From: "jlamadoo, home account" Subject: Re: First concert(s)? (NJC) Sheepishly, I going to shock no one by stating my opinion that the Beatles were a fine performing band back then. There are several CDs of live Beatles including "Live At The BBC" (no screaming at all) and "At The Hollywood Bowl" (plenty of screaming). These titles reveal that they were a tight, beat oriented, harmony-singing organization, like Rockin' Jake. They were a garage band in many respects and there's nothing wrong with that. Lama Sybill said, >>>> I remember almost nothing except the amazing sight of those guys on the stage and the deafening roar caused by 10,000 girls screaming hysterically. Oddly enough, I remember being able to hear the music as well, I just don't remember if it was any good. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 21:01:54 EDT From: TimandMaryPowers@aol.com Subject: inspiration and humor NJC for some inspiration (non-religious): www.heroicstories.com humor: www.thisistrue.com motto: truth is stranger than fiction because fiction has to make sense. Mary ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 21:04:30 -0400 From: Bruyere Subject: Re: Kakki NJC A resounding YES from me! Many people are Catholics but are not the same, many people are Democrats but are not the same, many people are liberal but are not the same. We have differences and we have to learn to live with them. I know that you all are trying to be informative but try to do so without making others feel bad. I know .... easier said than done. I have met Kakki and Mary P. who are intelligent and articulate women who I have a lot of respect for. I respect their veiws and opinions. I have never met Vince but I enjoyed reading what he had to say also. He has my respect also. I guess I am donning the peacemaker cap here. Let's keep communicating without thinking that any one particular person has the last word. "life has taught me that it is not for our faults that we are disliked and even hated but for our qualities" - Bernard Berenson Best to you all- Heather (who is about to be a grandmother for the second time within 48 hours) At 03:28 PM 9/25/01 -0400, Mags wrote: >In a sentence. Leave Kakki the feck alone please. She >is obviously having a hard time with this whole thing. >Forgive me for completely stepping out on a limb >here... however, I had to say something. Had to. As a >Canadian, I have felt included in her posts and her >sentiments, never excluded . Kakki recognizes and >acknowledges grief world wide. She is an incredibly >intelligent and articulate woman and I have a hard >time watching her being cornered at such a vulnerable >time. Let us please stop biting at each other and >understand that this thing has come into us deeper >than we can ever articulate or explain or anything. > >with respect for all voices, >Mags. > >-- >And this loving is a drawing close, >a tuning in, an opening. >Until one perfect moment; >but how can it be expressed? >A receiving, an enfolding >as I cradle you in my arms. >Within my heart, within my soul, >You are my true love. > > --Lui Collins > >--- > > _~O > / /\_, > ___/\ > /_ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 21:24:11 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: grandchildren NJC Bruyere wrote: > Best to you all- > Heather (who is about to be a grandmother for the second time within 48 hours) > Since I have you beat on this thing, my being after all the world's youngest (and youngest looking) grandfather with a 6 year old and a 2 year old grandson, let me tell you that two are better than one! They both love to crawl through those tube structures at the McDonalds and the Chuckie Cheeses and since I am really cool dude we all go crawling through together. So glad that the little one can now crawl though on his own, since we can now all do expeditions together. When we feel like disrupting society, we arrange to a do a interlocking leg thing and go down the tube slides together which always stuns the hell out of the people sitting eating their value meals when we come flying out of the tube!!!! Makes life livable!!!! Heather, congrats on the new one to be and wait a few years and crawl through those tubes together - pride, hell, I like knowing that when I'm dead they will say, hey, remember how papa crawled through those tubes with us and how we laughed when everyone gave us strange looks? You can't buy those memories of yourself for them to have! (the Rev) Vince NP: the Tubes ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 02:30:49 +0100 From: <657174974@amena.com> Subject: Re: VLJC - 10 desert island songs First, I must thank everyone in the list for their warm welcome. It makes me feel proud of being a Joni fan. My 10 favourite songs could be these: 1. All I Want (you know that one). The first Joni song I ever heard and still my favourite. 2. Give Me Shelter (The Rolling Stones - Let It Bleed). Wonderful and apocalyptic. 3. Marquee Moon (Television - Marquee Moon). One of the very few punk songs that lasts more than ten minutes, but there's not a single second wasted. And I don't even like punk. 4. Paperback Writer (The Beatles). 5. Starless (King Crimson - Red). Makes me wanna cry. 6. Goon Squad (Elvis Costello - Armed Forces). Very difficult choice. This simply rocks very hard. 7. Peaches En Regalia (Frank Zappa - Hot Rats). What can I say? Beautiful beyond words. 8. This Will Be Our Year (The Zombies - Oddesey and Oracle). Gorgeous in its simplicity. 9. Alone Again Or (Love - Forever Changes). 10. Help Me, Rhonda (The Beach Boys - Summer Days). Ayoze ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 18:41:33 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: first 45s, lps...(njc) > > First CD: WTRF, although I already had it on LP, of course. > > Mine was Blind Faith. > > Jerry I'm pretty sure mine was Court & Spark. I sort of vowed to myself that it would be. Mark E ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 21:53:03 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Blind Faith (njc) I saw Blind Faith in concert (the one and only) and have them on vinyl, cassette, 8-track, and cd - overtime I play that music I float in a sea of joy... Mark or Travis wrote: > > > First CD: WTRF, although I already had it on LP, of course. > > > > Mine was Blind Faith. > > > > Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 18:35:13 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: JMDL Digest V2001 #439 njc >>>First 45 - Surfin' Bird by the Trashmen<<< omg, i had that one! ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 18:35:05 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: Questions NJC In response to Vince's questions, Deb wrote, "I am comfortable proclaiming a "universal truth" that Naziism is evil. Same with the Taliban. Evil, or mad, as some other poster said." I agree & it was either the woman who filmed the documentary Behind the Veil or an interview with a woman previously from Afghanistan with first hand experience who was recently interviewed on TV that said that the Taliban believe women are evil. ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 18:35:09 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Subject: Top Ten Stranded on an Island CD's...NJC OMG, Steve Polika!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (your check is in the mail...hahaha....)re: Marc Cohn- you know which one it has to be!!!!!!!!! Okay... Today it would be: 1. Hejira- the goddess Siquomb 2. Blue Man Group 3. Caravan Tonight- Steven Grossman 4. Apurimac III- Cusco 5. Kate Bennett 6. Supremes Greatest Hits 7. Marc Cohn (Haven't decided which one of the 3...) 8. Bonnie Raitt- Luck of the Draw 9. Abba's Greatest Hits 10. Fleetwood Mac- the Dance Steve ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 18:35:11 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: grief and hurt(njc) perhaps opening a can of worms i ask, what do you mean by this? >>There is a heck of a lot of anti-american sentiment on this site.mack<<< ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 21:57:13 EDT From: BigWaltinSF@aol.com Subject: Re: Shelby Lynne and (?) Marti Jones (njc) Bob, Match Game!! Yes! Your encyclopedic and infallible memory have done it again! Good to know she appears on the Canadian tribute album (when did that come out, by the way, and it is generally availble?). I wonder if any of Marti's earlier stuff is still available -- I'll look around for it -- I'd love to have a copy of Match Game again. I remember Don Dixon's name now, too, thanks to your dredging it back up from the murk of my very fallible memory. :-) Thanks, as always, Bob, Walt ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 22:15:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: new york these days (NJC) - --- Mark or Travis wrote: > > Has anyone else saved them? > > > > I could say I would do it, but I won't get to it, > so I ask someone > to > > put together in one place the stories of our > JMDLers who were in NYC > on > > September 11th. As we are a community, perhaps > these should be > > preserved on the website. > > > > (the Rev) Vince > > I've been saving them and was going to put them in a > folder in > Outlook. I feel they are historical documents. > Les, if you want > them, I'm pretty sure I have most, if not all of > them. I've saved some too - it didn't seem right to delete them. These are things we need to remember. Vince, I can send you any I've saved - you may end up with duplicates, but that's better than missing any. Don't these posts go to archive as well? I've never really checked. Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 22:21:57 EDT From: BigWaltinSF@aol.com Subject: (njc) Dionne, and sililarity of taste... In his list of 10 desert island cds, Coyote Rick mentioned: Dionne did a Brazil CD!!?? I didn't know. I used to have dozens of her LPs and still have a lot of her old stuff on imported (UK) cds. I especially like Rhino's "Dionne: Love Songs" collection, which has the incredibly rare "I Didn't Mean to l Love You" --a single that was briefly released in the late '70's, pulled, and almost lost to posterity -- and it was excellent, heart wrenching! I'd also like to jump in here and mention how amazed I am (and then, upon consideration, not amazed) how much our (jmdlers) musical taste overlaps. How many of us like Joni, Cocteau Twins, Carole King, Basia, Dionne, and on and on and on. - --walt ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 21:26:38 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: Re: grief and hurt(njc) Yes, it will, and I am reticent to even respond. I have read all the posts that Kakki has made and I did not find anything that would lead me to believe that she thought, or even intimated to, we as Americans have any kind of corner on the grief caused by this tragedy. That statement offended me as have others, thinly veiled, posted here that, I feel, are derogatory to the United States. I am sure that this will be met by the people responsible saying that they were not doing so and they will have some noble reasoning for the postings that they have made. I am not the best American. I did not vote for George Bush and am against practically everything that he stands for. I have been very active in the ACLU and have often, more than not, been against what our government is doing, in many different areas. But, even so, it pisses me off when people from other countries say things about the United States. I don't care why other countries don't like the U.S. As far as I am concerned, it is the best country in the world. I could spend my time hurling insults at other countries but I will not do so. I also don't feel the need to defend the U.S. I am an ordinary citizen doing the best than I can to make this country better and thank goodness I can do so without repudiation from the government. I like to try to find good things to say about other countries. I love Canada and have often wondered why our country more or less ignores it. I do not have much of a clue as to even what the provinces are. I love Great Britain. Though others have cursed it and I have had my doubts about the Irish situation, I have always thought that England was a great country. Back to the Kakki business, it is ludicrous, to me, to say that we, as Americans do not feel the tragedy more than anyone else. Regardless or whether or not we were there or personally affected by it, it is our country and you bet we do feel it moreso than any one else, just as the victims in any country do when something occurs in their country. That doesn't mean we think we have cornered that grief. I was young when Vietnam occurred and never agreed with why we were there but damnit, this is my country and I don't give a damn what anyone else thinks about it. We made mistakes but they were our mistakes. I don't remember who it was that said this country has done more for the other countries of this world than anyone and it is true. Instead of being thanked for it, we are constantly derided. I am sick of hearing it. Mack - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kate Bennett" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 8:35 PM Subject: grief and hurt(njc) > perhaps opening a can of worms i ask, what do you mean by this? > > >>There is a heck of a lot of anti-american sentiment on this site.mack<<< > > ******************************************** > Kate Bennett > www.katebennett.com > sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com > Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: > http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html > ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 22:33:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: VLJC - First post and 10 desert island discs - --- 657174974@amena.com wrote: > Hello all. > > My name is Ayoze, I'm a new Joni fan from Spain. Welcome to the party, Ayoze. As for me, I always refuse to play the desert island game because I'm spoiled rotten and I want it all. Also, the practical side of me suggests there would be no way to play these discs anyway, but if I said that, I guess I'd be ruining it for everyone else, so let's just pretend I didn't say that. Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 23:01:01 -0400 From: "James L. Leonard" Subject: Re: 10 desert island discs (SJC) In alphabetical order (and cheating with box sets, in most cases) ... 1. Allman Brothers Band - The Fillmore Concerts 2. John Coltrane - The Classic Quartet: Complete Impulse! Studio Recordings 3. Miles Davis - Miles Davis Quartet 1965 - '68 4. Duke Ellington - The Centennial Edition: Complete RCA Victor Recordings 5. Dexter Gordon - The Complete Blue Note Sixties Sessions 6. Pat Metheny Group - Travels 7. Joni Mitchell - Shadows And Light 8. Thelonious Monk - The Complete Riverside Recordings 9. Van Morrison - It's Too Late To Stop Now 10. Neil Young - Weld Jim ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 23:59:45 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: NJC - mary hopkin in welsh dear mike, there is a mary hopkin cd in welsh. it's called ''y caneuon cynnar'. it contains one of the most beautiful tunes i have ever heard: y blodyn gwyn. the other tracks are pretty commonplace renditions of old hits such as guantanamera... in welsh! when i joined this list ages ago, i asked if anybody knew any recordings of welsh songs. i love ''the ash grove'' in all its incarnations and i wanted to hear it in welsh. i also love the word ''hiraeth'' and there's a song with that name. i wonder how it's pronounced. [incidentally, nobody ever responded my post!!! shame on all of you.] i never imagined that one day i would be telling the welsh about mary hopkin! wallyK ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 23:06:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: First concert(s)? (NJC) - --- Martin Giles wrote: > Yes Hell, you got me, it IS a paraphrase of Douglas > Adams. Can't think right > now of the actual quote. He was very fond of that > sort of image though. > Another similar was this joke, told by the most > permenantly depressed > species in the Galaxy... > > Q Why is life like hanging upside-down in a > bucket of Hyena offal? > A I don't know. Why IS life like hanging > upside-down in a bucket of Hyena > offal? > Q I don't know either...... Wretched, isn't it? > Omigod - this is SO funny! Douglas Adams is priceless. Well, was, I guess. Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 23:28:44 -0400 From: "jlamadoo, home account" Subject: Re; Questions NJC very long, njc, totally political Vince, I'll play. I'd answer some of your questions. We knew that the Taliban were responsible for the Emabassy bombings. Now, they have escalated to civilians on American soil. How can you ask "... why was there no talk of war against the Taliban on September 10th or any day prior?" Vince, where are you coming from with that question? Surely you know what changed. By framing the question, you have answered the question. Then you wrote: "2. If we take military action against the Taliban because we think it is an evil, oppressive, regime, is this nation then not taking an action that says that we are the judge of all other nations? Why then couldn't another nation go to war against us because they think that our government is evil and oppressive? Who is to be the judge of the governments of other nations? Where does the going to war because of dislike of other nations or their governments stop?" The USA is not bombing civilians in Afganistan, nor crashing planes full of civilians into high rises. For goodness sake, here, Vince. Have you lost it? Are you seriously equating bin Lauden's guilt for terrorism, with our supposed guilt for *conducting military espionage on terrorists*? You can hold 'em up together but they have nothing in common. Nothing. C'mon. Killing school kids is "like" spying on terrorists? Mend your speech a little, lest you mar your fortunes. Number 3:You asked, >>> Should we take military action against the Taliban because of our opinion of its government and its values, then innocent people will be killed. >>>>>>>>>>> Vince, no one is talking about taking military action against the Taliban because we trying to do a hostile takeover, promoting democracy. Read what you wrote. This is not about declaring war on a government. It's about declaring war on terrorists. Are you implying that if we DON"T dismantle the terrorists, that they will go away? You imply that if we inflame the terrorists, that we become the terrorists. That if we try to stop terrorism, we are responsible for the death of innocents. This is clearly absurd. You surely assume that the us military knows at least a little about the Taliban already. If we have gathered intellegence on the Taliban, then by your accusation, the US military brought on the attacks. That's absurd. Maybe you're thinking "turn the other cheek" but IMO, this is more like me giving up whole classrooms of school children because of someone else's hangnail. There's a difference in degree that you aren't getting at all. Enough for now. Jim ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 01:29:49 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: War/AntiWar/Church [long and NJC] Vince, it's obvious from the way you've written so vehemently that you don't like the Catholic Church. So, join the crowd. I'm not about to start defending the Catholic Church because Lord knows I have plenty of complaints myself about it. Be that as it may, the impression you've given regarding its stance on war is not completely accurate. The Catholic Church has a bloody history. No question. However, the just war theory is NOT the excuse for indiscriminate killing you paint it to be. It is NOT doctrine. It's not even solely Catholic; St. Augustine refined the theory but did not originate the ideas. It's certainly NOT a set of rules Catholics are expected to follow. It is an ethical guide, part of the tradition of the church and, like all ethical guides, is meant to help a person or a group decide what the appropriate action is so that their decisions have some grounding in thought and are not based only on the feelings of the moment. And it, like everything else in the Catholic Church, is argued about passionately among Catholics themselves. So dogma, doctrine? C'mon Vince, you know better than that. Two notable anti-war protestors, Father Daniel Berrigan and Dorothy Day, both practicing Catholics, probably knew of these guidelines and considered them in the context of the Vietnam War and decided that that war did not meet the criteria of a "just" war; perhaps even if it did they would have demonstrated against the Vietnam War anyway. I have no idea what either of them would be thinking now, but since both are New Yorkers (or were, in the case of Day who died years ago), I doubt if this current situation would be nearly as clearcut for them. I've seen a few mentions on this list of the Vietnam War. In my opinion, comparing this situation with the Vietnam War is completely off-base. Other than the guerilla warfare tactics of the enemy, there are no similarities. Peace demonstrations? That idea obviously comes from people who have not sucked in some of the "dust" everyone here has been breathing, and who have no true conception of the amount of the destruction here. More Brits were killed in the attack on the WTC than have been killed in the entire history of terrorism in England; hearing that shocked me considering the number of incidents that have occurred there. The targets of these attacks were not only the 7,000 or so people killed in the three locations; those flying bombs were sent into buildings that normally have 40,000 people in them with hundreds of thousands more nearby. It was not a coincidence that the planes had thousands of gallons of fuel in them, all of it on fire and flowing down through the buildings, or that it was a Tuesday morning after the final holiday week of the summer when most people would be back at work. The effects on the people here, especially the thousands of rescue workers and families who have lost loved ones, will last forever. Like everyone else, I don't want indiscriminate killing to be the response of the U.S. Indiscriminate killing is what happened here on September 11th. I do not want such killing to ever happen again, not anywhere. The small efforts that have been made in years past, whether it's bombing military targets in retaliation for terrorist acts or money "under the table" to influence people, have not worked, have not immobilized the people intent on such destruction. If freezing the terrorists' financial assets will do that and not a single shot is fired, that would be fine with me; my response would be a huge and heartfelt hurray. If financial pressure is not enough, and I doubt that it is, then I say, do what must be done, as precisely as possible. Saying this does not mean I'm bloodthirsty or that I think the U.S. has never done anything wrong. It has. It does. Queen Elizabeth is the wealthiest woman in the world, isn't she? I mention that not to pick on the Brits, especially since most of them could probably use some of that wealth to get by themselves, but only to show that hindsight is indeed 20/20. In the same way that England once ruled the world, which enabled the royal family to amass such wealth, the U.S. government and U.S. corporations have a way of going in and taking whatever they want. It's hard to see it as it's happening, especially when most of us are benefitting from such behavior. All of that has to be looked at. Whether changing our ways, if it's even possible, would keep hate-filled fanatics from doing what they're compelled to do, especially when it's couched in religious rhetoric... I have no answers for that. Looking at how the U.S. treats other countries and improving relationships will involve long-term thinking and thousands of conversations. For now, what is to be done about people who have not only killed thousands of innocent people, but who vow to continue doing as much destruction as they possibly can? So, going back to my long-ago class in ethics, I look at the guidelines of the just war theory and I say, yes, in this case, war is an ethical response. In my opinion, to proclaim "peacefulness" is trying to wish away the evil that's already shown itself, and that we've been promised will continue to show itself, and to not do what must be done to stop it is immoral. These are the points of the Just War theory: 1. A just war can only be waged as a last resort. All non-violent options must be exhausted before the use of force can be justified. 2. A war is just only if it is waged by a legitimate authority. Even just causes cannot be served by actions taken by individuals or groups who do not constitute an authority sanctioned by whatever the society and outsiders to the society deem legitimate. 3. A just war can only be fought to redress a wrong suffered. For example, self-defense against an armed attack is always considered to be a just cause (although the justice of the cause is not sufficient--see point #4). Further, a just war can only be fought with "right" intentions: the only permissable objective of a just war is to redress the injury. 4. A war can only be just if it is fought with a reasonable chance of success. Deaths and injury incurred in a hopeless cause are not morally justifiable. 5. The ulimate goal of a just war is to re-establish peace. More specifically, the peace established after the war must be preferable to the peace that would have prevailed if the war had not been fought. 6. The violence used in the war must be proportional to the injury suffered. States are prohibited from using force not necessary to attain the limited objective of addressing the injury suffered. 7. The weapons used in war must discriminate between combatants and non-combatants. Civilians are never permissable targets of war, and every effort must be taken to avoid killing civilians. The deaths of civilians are justified only if they are unavoidable victims of a deliberate attack on a military target. That's it. I realize, of course, that this set of guidelines is not the only one available, and that for other people, other guidelines are more meaningful. Certainly, bin Laden and his followers would see no value in this just war theory. Other groups of people have a long-standing tradition of opposing all wars, with no consideration given to the particular situation. From the Vietnam War until now there's not been a time where I felt that military force was appropriate or moral. This time I do. Debra Shea P.S. For anyone curious about the just war theory, its history and how it is applied, here's an interesting (and very long) article: http://law.gonzaga.edu/borders/documents/deforres.htm Vince Lavieri wrote: > > Kakki, sorry, wrong. The Catholic Church has never ben staunchly anti-war, > never. From the year 325 in which the motto of Emperor Constantine said, > "With this cross we will conquer" the Roman Church has been anything but > anti-war. >> > ... I am not saying the Catholic Church is pro-war, > but the the Just War theory is a doctrine of the Church, it is a dogmatic > teaching, and the history of the Catholic Church makes that very clear. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 00:31:17 -0600 From: "shane mattison" Subject: do attachments work? (njc) if attachments work, please accept this obituary, but if not, well, go = suck face... (and thank you so much for your emails) shane Eldon M., Q.C., beloved husband of Erva L. , after suffering congestive heart failure. He is missed by his daughter Elda, her husband Ray Rodger, his son Shane, and his sister Sybil (Conley). He was predeceased by his parents Frank and Gertrude from near Rosetown, Sask., where Eldon was born on April 12, 1916. Eldon was raised on a prairie farm, attending a one room schoolhouse and he completed his matriculation by correspondence. He had worked to afford his education in agricultural and construction jobs, such as the air training base in Moose Jaw. After a Saskatoon Normal School diploma, he taught school, especially Dublin School, near Zealandia. Eldon won a Leonard Foundation Scholarship to the University of Saskatchewan, graduating in arts and law in 1942. Then he married Erva L. , from Eatonia. They went to Regina, where he articled for the Hon. Frank Bastedo. After being called to the bar, he practised law in Melfort and Tisdale until moving to Calgary in 1952. In Calgary Eldon founded his own law firm, eventually known as _________. It later included Brian Phillips, son of the senator from Ottawa. Eldon had many cases establishing precedent, and reported in law reports and journals . He had argued cases in the Supreme Court of Canada. Some cases were fought alongside the Rt. Hon. John G. Diefenbaker. Eldon was first elected to parliament in 1958, representing the people of Bow River. In 1962, he was appointed Queen's Counsel. By 1968, he represented Calgary North. He won eight consecutive elections and served in parliament for 22 years, serving prominently on the front bench of the House of Commons as Conservative justice spokesman, and then as Chairman of the Standing Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs. He was well recognized across the country as a guest speaker, often speaking out for victims of crime. He often realized the tremendous help of his wife Erva in attaining his electoral and professional achievements. He attended many international conferences and was a lecturer at the International Conference on Peace Through Law, in Belgrade. He produced many private members bills to assist the disadvantaged, voted to increase minimum wages, and soften penalties against personal marijuana users. All during his career in politics, he brought pressure to bear on successive justice ministers in his desire to see a safer country against hardened criminals and terrorists. He worked diligently on behalf of individual constituents, farmers, and those who suffered injustices. Eldon was President of the national Junior Chamber of Commerce, President of the Board of Trade, Vice-President of the Jaycees and a Shriner. He was a member of the Calgary Country Club, the Calgary Petroleum Club, and the Albany Club in Toronto. He liked to golf and fish, and frequently returned to his prairie farm roots to ride horses or help with the farming. He was always known by his friends and advisors as a man of integrity, honesty, and character, who would not serve special interests, but fight for the individual citizen. He will be sadly missed. In lieu of flowers, donations may be made to the Foothills Hospital Heart Clinic. Funeral services to be held on Monday Oct 1, 11am at the Cathedral Church of the Redeemer. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 07:34:59 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?khalil=20alkari?= Subject: [none] salam my frend my name is khalil from bahrain. i am joni mitchel fan from georg bush time in kuwait. i like joni mitchal and thing muslim stick up washington is very interesting. I like song carey i like yellow taxi song and my fren like islam song hijra. i want meet many joni mitchal fren,,,,, inshala ,khalil in bahrain Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 08:53:17 +0200 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: RE: 10 desert island discs Oh, yes! Lark Ascending!!! On 25 September 2001 20:24, Mags [SMTP:pholden@iprimus.ca] wrote: > 9.Vaughan Williams The Lark Ascending (okay so it's a > song, it deserves to be in a list of CDs) brilliant, > soulful, perfect. Iona Brown is the song bird of the > violin. Enough to stop me in my tracks and keep me > there. Spellbound. > > Mags ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2001 #440 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?