From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2001 #439 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Tuesday, September 25 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 439 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Catholic Church on Peace (njc) ["shane mattison" ] Article: Just war theory (NJC) ["Pitassi, Mary" ] Top Ten Stranded on an Island CD's...NJC [Steve Polifka ] Re: Uncle John !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NJC ["Garret" ] Re: first concert and *best* concerts NJC ["Garret" ] Re: 10 desert island discs ["Garret" ] Re: 10 desert island discs (NJC) ["Lori R. Fye" ] Re: Uncle John !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NJC [john van tiel ] women in rock magazine ["Garret" ] Joni fans should check out new singer Anny [joni fan ] re: 10 desert island songs [Don Rowe ] Re: goodbye (njc) [Bruyere ] Re: 10 desert island discs (NJC) ["Dolphie Bush" ] Re: First 33 1/3 and 45 rpm records (NJC) [cvickery@danielrealty.com] Re: my father's passing (njc) ["Dolphie Bush" ] Re: First concert(s)? (NJC) ["Martin Giles" ] Re: Test your memories NJC [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: Test your memories NJC ["Gerald A. Notaro" ] re: 10 desert island songs [Mark Domyancich ] Re: grief and hurt(njc) ["Victor Johnson" ] Re: grief and hurt(njc) ["Dolphie Bush" ] Re: Musical tidbits (njc) ["Sybil Skelton" ] RE: Catholic content: NJC, and silly ["Pitassi, Mary" ] Firsts [Fauchja@aol.com] Re : Questions NJC ["Martin Giles" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 11:49:51 -0600 From: "shane mattison" Subject: Catholic Church on Peace (njc) vince describes catholic reality before the second vatican council. kakki describes catholic reality since the second vatican council. angelo roncalli (pope john xxiii) was the real modern pope of peace, not onl;y penning the seminal encyclycle "Pacem in Terris" (Peace on Earth), but thankfully calling the second vatican ecumenical council. This council revolutionalized and modernized the church, making it biblical, ecumenical more (in theory first), services in the vernacular, raised the status of the episcopacy, raised the status of the laity.... the list is endless and the effect monumental... the principles of colleagiality and peace-making thoroughly permeated the modern r.c. church in north america and western europe. Hundreds of thousands of priests and religious' lives were changed almost overnight...many were radicalized. Thomas Merton, Fr. Daniel Berrigan, Phillip Berrigan, missions abroad.. .the social gospel, even liberation theology gained a threshold... actually the present pope has vigorously tried to turn the church back to pre-vatican ii ways... he has failed to carry on the stream of vatican ii in directions it was heading - marriage of priests, role of women, synod of bishops, annulment and divorce reform... this is not to deny that there is a danger in every swing of pendulums... that is, the supernatural "good news" of christian revelation at times has suffered at the hands of 'social gospellers' and radicals when they get too high on their "causes'" at the expense of listening to the apostles... the apostles are interested in regeneration first, and from that, society can be changed .... however, knowing that the world will not be transformed until Christ returns... thats why angelo roncalli viewed himself as a centrist (like FDR!) For a look at Pacem in Terris: http://www.osjspm.org/cst/pt.htm For a look at the inspiring documents of the second vatican council: http://www.catholic-pages.com/dir/vatican2.asp shane ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 12:54:27 -0500 From: "Pitassi, Mary" Subject: Article: Just war theory (NJC) From *The Catholic Herald,* Diocese of Madison, September 20, 2001. "Using Force against terrorism: Justifiable under strict conditions," by Stephen Steele (Assistant national editor and reporter for Catholic News Service, Washington, DC). Excerpt: A military response to the Sept. 11 attacks that destroyed the World Trade Center is justifiable once responsibility for the act is determined with moral certitude, said leading U.S. moral theologians. Fr. J. Bryan Hehir, the new head of Catholic Charities USA and chairman of the executive committee at Harvard Divinity School, said the use of force could be applied under certain restrictive conditions. "First, you have to be certain who caused this, where they are, what kind of effective action can be taken, and whether that action can be taken without causing harm to civilian society," he said. "But to say that it's permissible to use force is not to say that it's inevitable that this is the way to address the problem," he said. Hehir said the application of the just-war theory to fighting terrorism is unprecedented because the theory normally applies to sovereign nations. "In order to make that jump you have to say that these terrorist groups are acting in a way that makes them analogous to states. Lots of the organizations do operate in a way that makes them analogous to states," he said. ACT OF WAR Msgr. William Smith, professor of moral theology at St. Joseph Seminary in Yonkers, NY, told Catholic News Service that the attacks on the World Trade Center constituted an act of war. "This was certainly not a domestic act. It would be exceptionally difficult that someone could coordinate the different airlines [sic] at the same time. It takes money, intelligence, faked passports, cells in our own country," he said. He said that responding to terrorism with military force is allowable under the just-war theory once all peaceful measures to end a potential conflict have failed. Smith said the deadly attacks on the World Trade Center were particularly heinous because it was an attack on a civilian population. The attack on the Pentagon fell into a different category because it is a military installation. PROTECTING ONESELF The Second Vatican Council stated that every country has the right to protect itself against unchecked aggression, "which this certainly is," he said. "People have made the comparison to Pearl Harbor, but at least they had the decency in an indecent act to attack a military base. This here was an attack of civilians with complete disregard for innocent life," he said. "If a response requires the use of military force, in my judgment it's justifiable. Otherwise you cannot have a civilized society," Smith said in a telephone interview. He said that if an investigation determines that Osama Bin Laden was responsible for the attacks, then any force used to bring the Saudi-born terrorist to justice would be justified, even if it meant invading another sovereign nation. "One government cannot deal evenly with another, if they don't honor the basic rules of human co-existence," he said. "That murderer Bin Laden says he's doing all of this in the name of religion, but no religion on this planet justifies the killing of innocent people," Smith said. - --And there's more, but it mainly has to do with a symposium on terrorism held after the attacks at Georgetown University Law School. Note: Some may see a tension between the concern for "innocent human life" in this application of the just war theory (i.e., attack on the attackers of innocent human life is justified), and the ever-increasingly-accepted opposition on the part of the Church to the death penalty in, say, individual murder cases. And I'm not at all sure I would disagree with that assessment. However, asking the questions, and stumbling toward answers, has to start somewhere. Mary P. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 13:13:34 -0500 From: Steve Polifka Subject: Top Ten Stranded on an Island CD's...NJC Okay... Today it would be: 1. Hejira- the goddess Siquomb 2. Blue Man Group 3. Caravan Tonight- Steven Grossman 4. Apurimac III- Cusco 5. Kate Bennett 6. Supremes Greatest Hits 7. Marc Cohn (Haven't decided which one of the 3...) 8. Bonnie Raitt- Luck of the Draw 9. Abba's Greatest Hits 10. Fleetwood Mac- the Dance Steve ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 14:23:56 -0400 From: Mags Subject: re: 10 desert island discs Preamble: Not cast in stone, definitely not. This is an impulsive 'today' list...and of course if I was on that aforementioned desert island, Brei would be with me (talk about paradise!) and he would have his ten with him so I can't lose ;-) 1. Alternate Blue Joni Mitchell (brilliant, beautiful, incredible.. lots of wonderful surprises!! Thanks Brei for this wonderful gift. 2.Songbird.. Eva Cassidy... I heard Eva Cassidy long before she became popular too...I was completely blown away by this angel's voice. In my last job at the book store, I sold more Eva CD's than any other artist just by putting this CD on and letting her speak her stories. She is magnificent. And I meant the present tense. To me, she lives on, still, and forever. 3.Sarah McLachlan Vara Radio Sessions...Sarah like you've never heard her before. Uncle John, thank you for this. John can explain the history behind this CD much better than I ever could...it is breathtaking. Riveting. 4.Jonatha Brooke LIVE mostly because this CD always, always, always makes me so happy and it reminds me of the first trek across the US that Brei and I made to last year's fest. Plenty of fine memories woven within those lyrics. 5. Loreena McKennitt either Mask and the Mirror or Book of Secrets (I cant decide!) brilliant work, both of them. I will bring one, so Brei can bring the other ;) 6.Pink Floyd Dark Side of the Moon an old favourite 7.Garnet Rogers Speaking Softly in the Dark (especially because of The Enchanting) 8.Dave Matthews and Tim Reynolds Live at Luther College precious collection of acoutical Dave with Tim. Dave's passion is incredible, especially here. 9.Vaughan Williams The Lark Ascending (okay so it's a song, it deserves to be in a list of CDs) brilliant, soulful, perfect. Iona Brown is the song bird of the violin. Enough to stop me in my tracks and keep me there. Spellbound. 10.Eleanor McEvoy Yola (see description of Jonatha Brooke above). Another Brei connection. okay that's it. For the moment. Mags np: The Lark Ascending thank you Uncle John, again! - -- And this loving is a drawing close, a tuning in, an opening. Until one perfect moment; but how can it be expressed? A receiving, an enfolding as I cradle you in my arms. Within my heart, within my soul, You are my true love. --Lui Collins - --- _~O / /\_, ___/\ /_ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 19:28:39 +0100 From: "Garret" Subject: Re: Uncle John !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NJC John i hope that it's been the greatest for you:-) Happy Birthday. GARRET ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 19:35:33 +0100 From: "Garret" Subject: Re: first concert and *best* concerts NJC unfortunatley NJC:-( My first concert was in 1997(yes, i said '97:-), i was sixteen and thought Jewel was really really good. She blew me away with the opening song- Near You Always. For anyone tht has never heard Jewel do this song live, i highly recommend it, she *really* makes it work! Far better than second time i saw her. The opening act, Simon Warner or something, must get an award for being the *worst* opener i have ever seen! So, that's the first concert i went to. There are three gigs that i class as being the "best" of all the gigs i've been to; Patti Smith playing in Ocean, London in July past. What a wonderful venue. What a wonderful show. She was so charismatic. She was chatty and funny; it was the last night of her tour and she was looking forward to going home for a while. Obviously, she didn't sing *every* song i would have wished for, but it was an utterly magical experience. The start of the show was odd, there was no opening act. The house music was still playing and Patti and the Band strolled on stage, and she said "Hey" to the audience and then launched into a song that i can't remember. I'm no good at remembering set lists. Patti Smith doing "Be My Baby" has always amused me, but seeing her do it live was surreal.....amazing. REM in Lansdowne Road stadium here in Dublin in 1999 was equally as impressive. Patti had no opening act, but REM had Paddy Casey and then Divine Comedy. That was such an amazing gig. They had been slated for a gig they played in London just days before the Irish gig, so Michael Stipe swore that the Irish gig would be special. It was an amazing show. They sang all the hits (except, i might add, Nightswimming) , to satisfy both contingents of concertgoers- the hardcore fans and those that only know Automatic AND they sang new songs, obscure songs, and many of what i would call their best songs:-) The third in this list is Placebo (yes, in hindsight they were actually better than Radiohead). I think that Brian and the boys were on top form the night i saw them. It was a small rickety venue in Dublin called the SFX. It feels and looks like a school hall. The band were great. I read a critique of the show afterwards and the critc said that rarely are they this good. I guess i'm lucky then to have made it to that show. GARRET ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 19:25:52 +0100 From: "Garret" Subject: Re: 10 desert island discs Right about now this list looks like this: Joni Mitchell: Shadows and Light Patti Smith: Radio Ethiopa Paul Simon: The Anthology Radiohead: Kid A Bjork: Debut Rufus Wainwright: Rufus Wainwright Jeff Buckley: Mystery White Boy Janet Jackson: Velvet Rope REM: usually Monster, but Today: New Adventures in HiFi Chemical Brothers: Surrender ask me again tomorrow and the list will change drastically. it would be very different also if the "one cd per artisit wasn't there":-) GARRET ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 11:28:19 -0700 (PDT) From: "Lori R. Fye" Subject: Re: 10 desert island discs (NJC) Oops, I missed this rule: > Please: no more than 1 album per artist. Revised list: Hejira Jonatha Brooke - Live Elton John - Madman Across the Water Bonnie Raitt - Nick of Time Rod Stewart - Every Picture Tells a Story Cat Stevens - Catch Bull At Four Melissa Manchester - The Essence of Melissa Manchester Joan Armatrading - Whatever's for Us Shawn Colvin - Steady On Cris Williamson - The Changer and the Changed Les Ross, I can't believe you just upped the ante! 10 SONGS? Lemme think about it ... Lori in MD ~ I might have to switch Nick of Time, or DED, for something by Joan Armatrading. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 14:39:39 -0400 From: john van tiel Subject: Re: Uncle John !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NJC Thanks. Didn't know you were that young. :-)) John > From: "Garret" > Reply-To: "Garret" > Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 19:28:39 +0100 > To: > Subject: Re: Uncle John !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NJC > > John i hope that it's been the greatest for you:-) Happy Birthday. > GARRET ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 14:45:16 EDT From: BigWaltinSF@aol.com Subject: Musical tidbits (njc) Hi gang, I'm several digests behind, so forgive me if some of these top[ics have already been discussed. (1) I was all set to enjoy the new Ellen show, and hear Jonatha Brooke's song on it, but I was interrupted three times, so while I was able to follow the relatively simple plot (I love Ellen's schtick, so I liked the show anyway -- and what a cast), I think I missed the Jonatha song. I heard part of the theme song, and snatches of other things -- which song was Jonatha's? Will she be a regular contributer? (2) I assume most of you have seen the Gap ad with Carole King and her daughter Louise Goffin, CK at the pinao while LG sings So Far Away, and then CK slips into a song I don't know -- something about "I can't help believing..." -- I understand CK has a new album out, or coming out, but I was wondering if anyone was familiar with Louise's oeuvre? Her voice reminds me of her mothers, and I can't imagine, given her parentage, but that she must be a killer singer/songwriter... (3) Diana Krall on Leno last night: Her bossa nova version of S'Wonderful waS'Wonderful, but as usual, the musical guest was stuck at the end with no time to spare. They've done this to Joni more than once, too. Grrr. (4) Anyone else watch Crossing Jordan last night? (I'm a Jill Hennesy fan, good to see her getting her own show and stretch her acting chops, after three years on L&O being the milquetoast.) The incidental music was wonderful, largely celtic sounding, and the last song, male singer, was wonderful. Anybody hear it? Know who that singer was? (5) Who is the group that sings that rapid-fire song in the Mitsubishi add that shows two genX girls in one car, and three genX boys in another, some of it shot in a parking garage? The song is catchy -- it was a hit not long ago - -- but I don't know the name of the song or the group. The lyrics are along the lines of "It's been two weeks since you talked to me...." Thanks for your patience, and can you tell I watch WAY too much TV? :-) peace, walt ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 20:14:29 +0100 From: "Garret" Subject: Re: Uncle John !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NJC It's a well kept secret John ;-) GARRET - ----- Original Message ----- From: john van tiel > Thanks. > > Didn't know you were that young. :-)) > > > John ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 20:20:30 +0100 From: "Garret" Subject: women in rock magazine I'm not sure if tihs is old news. I was in tower records teh other day and came upon a magazine (one of the guitar magazines doing a special i think), something to the effect of "100 best/greatest/most talented women in rock". Always on the look out for Joni i flicked through it. Of course, our Joan is indeed there. There is a picture of Joni in concert with her guitar, i'm guessing from mid 70s. The blurb said something like: noone else has inspired more women to pick up a guitar and start writing. They mentioned her alternate tunings, and even said that her forays into jazz territory were at least accomplished, and at most awe inspiring (i think that's what it said). SO, i flicked through it and found everyone from Christine McVie and Stevei Nicks to Cher (i was delighted at this inclusion), to Madonna, to Janis, to Jonatha Brooke, to Mellisa Etheridge. Everyone i could think of was in there. GARRET ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 12:07:49 -0700 (PDT) From: joni fan Subject: Joni fans should check out new singer Anny Anny Listen & Behold Strange & Beautiful White Lipstick Girl Purple God Slowly Soulmate Gonna Get Mine Saint Louis, The Angels Fly Is This What You Died For? Medusa Love Is Water Monsters And Magical Sticks At the End Of The Road Visit Annyworld Anny Some say Anny casts a spell on all who listen to her songs. Others say her imagination inspires them to higher levels of inner understanding. All say the music of Anny is worth hearing over and over again. You are invited to know more about Anny so that you can deepen and enrich the time you spend listening to her songs. Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 15:12:05 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Uncle John !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NJC <> I dunno, I always thought the "sprout" thing was a dead giveaway! :~) Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 12:26:40 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Catholic content (NJC--very long) Mary, Again, perhaps I am simple, but I don't understand why you and some others seem to be taking issue with me on this. My original post said that while the church tends (in an activist way in my experience) towards holding to a higher ideal such as pacifism or being against war, it did teach me that self-defense is allowable and that we must stand against evil (i.e., the "just war" doctrine). I don't disagree with the history and more detailed doctrinal explanations that you and others have put forth here. In my simple mind, we are saying the same thing. The odd thing though is when *I* say it, somehow some people feel compelled to take issue with it. Go figure. From what I've seen in my life, peoples' experience of Catholism differs all over the world and in the U.S. itself. The form of Catholism I was exposed to from an early age, I would say was very much influenced by the progressive liberal branch of the church which came into prominence in the early 60s (when I began my Catholic education). It was not especially radical - it did not take the Berrigan brothers completely to heart as gospel, for example, but it was revolutionary, I imagine, in comparison to the church of old. I wasn't going to relate my experiences but maybe I should if it will give any more insight to my statements. At a time when corporal punishment was still fairly common in schools, my Catholic school was firmly against it and considered it violent. The school did not even mete out any form of punishment that could in any way be seen as harsh. That school is where I first heard of the build-up of forces in Vietnam in around 1966. We were exhorted to not only pray to end that war but to go around and write messages wherever we could that would say "Pray to stop the war in Vietnam." I did as I was told, of course, actually writing these words all over the inside of my friend's playhouse down the street! We were constantly told about Sister Mary Corita, whose art work and banners became staples in the anti-war movement a few years later. I could go on and on with my experiences of the church, including the church I attended in college in Arizona. I also am well-read on the history of the church and the writings of Aquinas and Augustine. I also had two Catholic activist aunts who were nuns who sought to influence me. The bottom line is that we are all saying the same thing, but I have not been inaccurate in my statements regarding the church's anti-war activism in the past several decades. If it only happened in my experiences in California and Arizona, that still does not negate that it happened. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 12:18:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: re: 10 desert island songs Wow ... 10 songs. Requires a whole new way of thinking. Let's see how this works, in no particular order: Joni -- My Secret Place (just can't resist the irony of being stranded on a desert island playin' this one over ... and over ... and over!) Julia Fordham -- The Comfort of Strangers The Fixx -- How Much Is Enough Seal -- Crazy Richard Thompson -- Bee's Wing Brian Eno -- I'll Come Running Ry Cooder -- That's The Way The Girls Are In Texas Bruce Springsteen -- Brilliant Disguise Pink Floyd -- Comfortably Numb Fleetwood Mac -- Bleed To Love Her (from The Dance) Hey, that's a not bad mix ... think I'll make it when I get home! Don Rowe ===== Visit me anytime at http://www.mp3.com/donrowe ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 00:31:29 -0400 From: Bruyere Subject: Re: goodbye (njc) Oh now look what has happened!! Heather At 09:18 PM 9/24/01 -0700, Robert Holliston wrote: >Friends, >It's been an extraordinary three and a half years, and I'll remember it, >and you, forever. >But the time has come for me to say addio. > >Very best to all, >Roberto > >_________________________________________________________________ >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 14:23:56 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: Re: 10 desert island discs (NJC) coyote, carole king thoroughbred. I really love that album, especially the cut Daughter of Light. Used to have the 8 track. Have looked for years for another copy but can't find it. Great choice. Mack - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Monday, September 24, 2001 9:30 PM Subject: Re: 10 desert island discs (NJC) > Hair pulling time again. Here are mine in no particular order, except the > first: > > Joni: Miles of Aisles > Studio 54 Soundtrack > Dionne Warwick: Brazil CD > Rolling Stones: Sticky Finger > Keeley Smith: Sinatra Tribute > Oleta Adams: Circle of One > Carole King: Thoroughbred > Todd Rundgren: A Wizard, A True Star > Fogelberg/Weisburg: Twin Sons of Different Mothers > Linda Ronstadt: Mad Love > > And since Jimmy didn't take along any Joni, I'll bring DED as well. He's > such a bad packer. :-) > > No regrets, > > Coyote Rick > Casa Alegre > Hollywood, California ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 15:28:44 -0400 From: Mags Subject: Kakki NJC In a sentence. Leave Kakki the feck alone please. She is obviously having a hard time with this whole thing. Forgive me for completely stepping out on a limb here... however, I had to say something. Had to. As a Canadian, I have felt included in her posts and her sentiments, never excluded . Kakki recognizes and acknowledges grief world wide. She is an incredibly intelligent and articulate woman and I have a hard time watching her being cornered at such a vulnerable time. Let us please stop biting at each other and understand that this thing has come into us deeper than we can ever articulate or explain or anything. with respect for all voices, Mags. - -- And this loving is a drawing close, a tuning in, an opening. Until one perfect moment; but how can it be expressed? A receiving, an enfolding as I cradle you in my arms. Within my heart, within my soul, You are my true love. --Lui Collins - --- _~O / /\_, ___/\ /_ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 14:26:41 -0500 From: cvickery@danielrealty.com Subject: Re: First 33 1/3 and 45 rpm records (NJC) finally chiming in here..... my first LP - a desperately desired birthday present for my 7th birthday - that Association album that contained "Windy," which i thought was sooo cool. was the album called "Windy," too? i could look it up, but then i'd *never* catch up with all these emails! the first single i remember having - "i'm a widdle white duck sittin in the wadda, a widdle white duck, doin whad he oughta.... and he swam and he swam right ovah the dam boop boop diddum daddum waddum CHOO!" i never voluntarily listened to much of my parent's music. boy, they had some scary stuff!! every firestone collection of crap ever recorded. the only saving grace - daddy was a huge jim reeves and jimmie rodgers fan. i still love jimmie rodgers; his music brings back some great memories, too. thanks for asking! all the best, cindy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 14:31:17 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: Re: my father's passing (njc) My heartfelt condolences to you Shane. Mack - ----- Original Message ----- From: "shane mattison" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 1:25 AM Subject: my father's passing (njc) > i just wanted to tell all my joni friends that my father just passed away > today due to heart failure. I gave him about 5 minutes of his last breaths > doing CPR. > > shane ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 14:33:55 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: Re: VLJC - First post and 10 desert island discs welcome Ayoze mack - ----- Original Message ----- From: <657174974@amena.com> To: Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 3:24 AM Subject: VLJC - First post and 10 desert island discs > Hello all. > > My name is Ayoze, I'm a new Joni fan from Spain. And this, as you can > see, is my first post. I've been on the list for a week and just wanted > to add my own "top ten essential recordings" (whoa, that sounded > pretentious). > > Laurent Olszer wrote: > "I'd like to know what music JMDLers would take to a desert island, > where you'd be stuck for the rest of your life? > Please: no more than 1 album per artist. > Limit: 10" > > So here we go: > > Pet Sounds (The Beach Boys) > Armed Forces (Elvis Costello and The Attractions) > Highway 61 (Bob Dylan) > Lark's Tongues In Aspic (King Crimson) > Setting Sons (The Jam) > Court And Spark (Joni Mitchell) > Arthur or the Decline and Fall of the English Empire (The Kinks) > Remain in Light (Talking Heads) > Skylarking (XTC) > We're Only In It For The Money (Frank Zappa and the MOI) > > I enjoy a lot reading the list and hope to participate more in the > future, even if my English isn't very good. After all, SIQUOMB. > > Ayoze ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 15:37:47 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: re: 10 desert island songs Ain't no way I could pick 10 songs as my favorite songs, but I couldn't go wrong with these 10: 1. Paprika Plains (So much depth, I could probably hear something new with each listen) 2. Blue Moon by the Marcels (Just about the most fun song to sing along with ever) 3. Golden Lady by Stevie Wonder (same as above, and I love the modulations he ends with) 4. A Change Is Gonna Come by Sam Cooke (a beautiful and very moving song, soulful and powerful) 5. Ring of Fire by Wall of Voodoo (an insanely demented cover, just for the fun quotient) 6. Hat Trick by America (because it's three, three, three songs in one! Also a lot of fun to sing to) 7. Rambling Man by The Allman Bros. (fun to sing and play air guitar to...) 8. Smells Like Teen Spirit by Nirvana (more air guitar, and I gotta have at least one good head banger in the bunch!) 9. Strange Messengers by Patti Smith (like Paprika Plains, this song has a lot of depth...I get something out of it with every listen, and it always moves me) 10. Pulse by Ani Difranco (same as above) Tomorrow's list would be different I'm sure, and of course I'm leaving about ten quadzillion great ones behind... Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 14:40:02 -0500 From: "Pitassi, Mary" Subject: RE: Catholic content (NJC--very long) Kakki, I'm not denying that Catholic anti-war activism occurred. What I'm questioning is your apparent view that it was the norm, accepted by most Catholics, or the position of the hierarchy. I, too, was deeply influenced by "liberal" religious orders and particular individuals within the church, especially during high school and college. However, I had to do nothing more but return to my various home parishes (we moved a lot during that time) during, say, holiday break from college to realize how removed from mainstream reality most of those experiences were. I would say that the church now holds up the ideal of nonviolence in some **but by no means all** situations. And your original post, I believe, said that the Catholic church prefers to encourage its members to respond to such tragedies as the violence of Sept. 11 by engaging in "prayer and charity" (I'm paraphrasing). Again, that's some, but certainly not all, of the story. I do think we agree, as I mentioned in my post, that the hierarchy--"church officialdom," if you like--has moved much more toward the position previously held by individuals and groups on the fringes. But that shift has been very, very recent within the overall history of the church, and it has certainly not been embraced by all. In all, I genuinely regret your feeling that your posts were being taken issue with because you happened to write them. However, I can only speak for myself, but I responded because what you wrote seemed, in my experience, to be incomplete and perhaps, inaccurate. Mary P. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 20:45:20 +0100 From: "Martin Giles" Subject: Re: about "proof" (njc) Well Bree, I'm with you when you say, "they hate the West and all we stand for....." That much is obvious. But then you said, ".....they can't stand that we are prosperous and we live free in all are diversity." I don't think that they see anything of value in our way of life. This is added to the feeling that OUR way of life is a threat to theirs. They see us as immoral, and they also see the temptation of the freedom that we have. They feel threatened. Your descriptions of these people's motivations seem to me to amount to 'envy' or 'jealousy'. Neither of which get close to the truth of their feelings, I think. Please don't take anything that I've said as an endorsement of what they did. I am dumbfounded by the complete evil of the people who caused the death and mayhem in the US recently. It seems to me that they had total contempt for human life. It's a sort of 'I'm OK, you are not OK' psychopathy. Once you've decided that other people are less worthy than yourself and your loved ones, you can do anything, it seems. Martin. In London. - ----- Original Message ----- From: Bree Mcdonough To: ; Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 3:35 AM Subject: Re: about "proof" (njc) > Dear Martin: > > I'm really not joking, and am interested for the reasons you think for the > September 11, attacks. Tell me, help me! (I don't if I would use > jealous.....they just don't like the way we do things and what we stand for) > > Bree > > > > >From: "Martin Giles" > >Reply-To: "Martin Giles" > >To: "joni digest" > >Subject: Re: about "proof" (njc) > >Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 23:51:08 +0100 > > > >Oh, please tell me you don't believe this Bree? That the terrorists killed > >all those people and themselves out of JEALOUSY? Tell me you're joking. > > > >Martin. In London. > > > > > > >No, they hate the West and all we stand for.....they can't stand that we > >are > > >prosperous and we live free in all are diversity. THIS is the reason for > > >the events Of September 11, 2001. > > > >Bree > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 20:21:38 +0100 From: "Martin Giles" Subject: Re: First concert(s)? (NJC) Yes Hell, you got me, it IS a paraphrase of Douglas Adams. Can't think right now of the actual quote. He was very fond of that sort of image though. Another similar was this joke, told by the most permenantly depressed species in the Galaxy... Q Why is life like hanging upside-down in a bucket of Hyena offal? A I don't know. Why IS life like hanging upside-down in a bucket of Hyena offal? Q I don't know either...... Wretched, isn't it? 8-) Martin. In London. - ----- Original Message ----- From: hell To: Suze Cameron ; Martin Giles Cc: Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 6:54 AM Subject: Re: First concert(s)? (NJC) > Sue wrote: > > > Martin Giles wrote: > > > > > > >As a matter of fact the first band I ever saw live was Nazereth, as they > > >were supporting Purple. They were complete dingo's kidneys! > > > > Oh my gawd Martin this is just too funny! > > Hell, where was this come-back during all of the kidding over Labor Day? > > > > Dingo's fecking kidneys, I am dying!!!!!! > > ROTFLMAO!!!!! > > I think (although I could be wrong) Martin is paraphrasing Douglas Adams in > the Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy. There's a line that goes something > like "he wouldn't give two fetid dingo kidneys....." > > A great line - pity I never thought to use it! > > Hell > ____________________________ > "To have great poets, there must be > great audiences too." - Walt Whitman > > hell@ihug.co.nz > Hell's Personal Photo Page: > http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/main/personal.htm > > Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: > http://www.nbls.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 15:55:15 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: Test your memories NJC In a message dated 9/25/01 1:27:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, notaro@bayflash.stpt.usf.edu writes: << Have you all beat. I had a 4 track. On the continual loop: The Letter, by the Boxtops. >> Jerry, you can probably remember your first reel to reel :~) just kiddin! My first 8 track tape : Santana "Abraxas" My first cassette tape : Dr. Buzzard's Original Savannah Band "Cherchez La Femme" Jimmy, hoping we don't do the 8 desired dinner guests thread again :~) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 16:05:19 -0400 From: "Gerald A. Notaro" Subject: Re: Test your memories NJC FMYFL@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 9/25/01 1:27:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > notaro@bayflash.stpt.usf.edu writes: > > << Have you all beat. I had a 4 track. On the continual loop: The Letter, by > the > Boxtops. >> > > Jerry, you can probably remember your first reel to reel :~) just kiddin! I do. It was a Webcor. I used to split the tracks of mono Judy Garland recordings and put an echo on them. And they STILL had no clue ( a la Ellen's joke last night)! Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 16:02:48 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Poor Old Jerry NJC <> What do you mean? Jerry can not only tell you his first Edison Cylinder but also his first cave painting! :~D Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 16:10:32 -0400 From: "Gerald A. Notaro" Subject: Re: Poor Old Jerry NJC SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > <> > > What do you mean? Jerry can not only tell you his first Edison Cylinder but also his first cave painting! :~D It somehow looked just like Charlton Heston from Planet of the Apes! Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 15:16:45 -0500 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: re: 10 desert island songs Well, I have to begin by saying that I listen to live stuff much, much more than any studio release, so that's why my list is a little slanted. In no particular order: 1) Phish, Lizards, 7/21/91 - Page's piano solo is the BEST! It makes the whole show worthwhile 2) The Slip, Invisible Man, 6/7/96 - mix is awful on my recording, but I love the F beat throughout the song (the NOTE! Not the swear!) 3) Dave Matthews/ Tim Reynolds, sometime in 2/97, Captain (aka #40) - hard as shit to play on the guitar but an awesome intro 4) Joni, Paprika Plains - nuff said 5) Jerry Garcia/David Grisman - Arabia 6) Tim Reynolds, Valley of Flowers 7) James Taylor, Fire & Rain 8) Phil Lesh & Friends, 4/15/99, Shakedown Street 9) Medeski, Martin & Wood - Note Bleu 10) Edie Brickell, Lost in the Moment That would be a sweet compilation! Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 16:16:38 -0400 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Re: grief and hurt(njc) . Leive wrote: I find it extremely upsetting that you claim all-American exclusivity to feelings of grief and hurt over the recent atrocities. I have not gotten this from anything that Kakki has written. Also, I KNOW Kakki and know that this is not true. Please everybody, refrain from making quick judgements about people whom you have never met before. It just leads to misunderstanding and unpleasantness. Victor in Athens NP: RUSH- Caress of Steel Victor Johnson http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson "Velveteen rabbits and moonbeams, Come when you lay down your head. While you are sleeping, they kiss you and tell you, That you are the reason the sun lights the sky." Scarlet-V. Johnson ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 15:23:04 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: Re: grief and hurt(njc) There is a heck of a lot of anti-american sentiment on this site. mack - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Victor Johnson" To: Cc: "joni" Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 3:16 PM Subject: Re: grief and hurt(njc) > . Leive wrote: I find it extremely upsetting that you > claim all-American exclusivity to feelings of grief and hurt over the recent > atrocities. > > > I have not gotten this from anything that Kakki has written. Also, I KNOW > Kakki and know that this is not true. Please everybody, refrain from > making quick judgements about people whom you have never met before. It > just leads to misunderstanding and unpleasantness. > > Victor in Athens > > NP: RUSH- Caress of Steel > > > > > > > Victor Johnson > http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson > > "Velveteen rabbits and moonbeams, > Come when you lay down your head. > While you are sleeping, they kiss you and tell you, > That you are the reason the sun lights the sky." > Scarlet-V. Johnson ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 15:33:37 -0500 From: "Sybil Skelton" Subject: Re: Musical tidbits (njc) That is "One Week" by the Canadian group Barenaked Ladies - a big hit about a year ago, and I agree rather catchy. They have an appealing sense of humor, eh? 5) Who is the group that sings that rapid-fire song in the Mitsubishi addthat shows two genX girls in one car, and three genX boys in another, some of it shot in a parking garage? The song is catchy -- it was a hit not long ago-- but I don't know the name of the song or the group. The lyrics are along the lines of "It's been two weeks since you talked to me...." _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 15:46:10 -0500 From: "Pitassi, Mary" Subject: RE: Catholic content: NJC, and silly P.S. Although, come to think of it, if we're fighting about when we shouldn't fight, maybe we ALL missed the boat on this one! Probably "guilty as charged." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 23:50:17 +0200 From: "patricia van nunen" Subject: 10 desert island cd's very difficult. only 10!! 1* joni mitchell : hejira 2* nick drake: five leaves left 3* henryk gorecki: symphony no.3 4* paul simon: graceland 5* eva cassidy: songbird 6* meshell ndegeocello: bitter 7* tori amos: little earthquakes 8* tricky: maxinquaye 9* geoff smith: 15 wild decembers 10*bjork:debut so difficult!!! patricia ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 00:14:23 +0200 From: "Mike Pritchard" Subject: The Roots of Hatred - NJC Just a quick note to advise anyone interested of the URL of an article in 'The Economist' about, well, why the US is hated by some countries, groups and/or individuals. I offer no comment, just check it out. Mike in Barcelona NP Silencers - Shatterproof Heart http://www.economist.co.uk/opinion/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=788407 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 18:15:18 EDT From: Fauchja@aol.com Subject: Firsts Out of lurk-dom. This is an ok subject First 45 - Surfin' Bird by the Trashmen First 33 - Meet the Beatles First cassette - Realization by Johnny Rivers First 8 Track - Luxury Liner by Emmylou Harris First concert - Donovan Desert Island Discs Court and Spark - Ms. Mitchell Rust Never Sleeps - Mr. Young Will the Circle Be Unbroken - NGDB and Friends David Bromberg by David Bromberg (the Japanese pressing of his 1st lp) Strngs of Steel by Michael Hedges Sgt Pepper - Beatles Graceland - Paul Simon Aereo Plane - John Hartford Other Voices, Other Rooms - Nanci Griffith Who's Next - Who ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 23:24:55 +0100 From: "Martin Giles" Subject: Re : Questions NJC Vince has asked some extremely difficult questions. I come form the UK, so a lot of his direct references to the US constitution I read more generally. Really these hard questions apply to all of us in the free world, of which America is the symbolic head, and for which it paid such a terrible price a few days ago.. > Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 23:06:18 -0400 > From: Vince Lavieri > Subject: Questions NJC > This is a first draft of questions that I am formulating. I would > appreciate response, off list if people so choose. But I ask these > questions in all sincerity. > 1. We hear that our nation must exercise military action against the > Taliban because of the evil nature of the Taliban. If this is so, why > was there no talk of war against the Taliban on September 10th or any > day prior? Perhaps because, up to that point, it was regarded as somebody else's problem. It was all happening elsewhere. > 2. If we take military action against the Taliban because we think it > is an evil, oppressive, regime, is this nation then not taking an action > that says that we are the judge of all other nations? Why then couldn't > another nation go to war against us because they think that our > government is evil and oppressive? Who is to be the judge of the > governments of other nations? Where does the going to war because of > dislike of other nations or their governments stop? Good question. It would seem that all you need is the conviction that you are right. Which presumeably is something that the Taliban has in common with the US/UK etc. This immediately gets us into a corner from which the only exit lies through the door called 'war'. Perhaps this is where tolerance should come in. And also, perhaps this is where an international court to try people accused of crimes against humanity and terrorism might be an alternatyive. It would require an international police force of course. The effectivemness and abilities of sucha police force and such a court would have to be agreed by all participating nations, and maintianed by the same. > 3. Should we take military action against the Taliban because of our > opinion of its government and its values, then innocent people will be > killed. That is the reality of war. How then does that differ from > someone killing innocent people in our country because of their opinion > of our government and its values? Because of the loss of innocent life, > what would distinguish us - other than our opinion of ourselves - from > those who did the evil acts of September 11th? Or does anyone think we > can to war without having any civilians killed? This is precisely the question I put to a friend of mine. He felt that it was a little 'below the belt' - in other words, I made a connection! In the end the only response of any substance he could come up with, was that we would rather that innocents were not killed in the conflict, whereas they don't seem to give a damn. I wonder though. If we start killing innocent people in Afghanistan, how would it look to the relations of their dead? > 4. A reason cited often about the evil of the Taliban is their > treatment of women. I agree that their treatment is horrible - > according to our understandings. Do we possess universal truth and > stand ready to wage war against those whose values differ from ours? Hmmm. Maybe we do. But there are obviously a lot of people who would disagree. > From the viewpoint of the fundamentalists who condemn our nation, the > events of September 11th were justified because of what they perceive > as the corruption of our society/culture and point to our alcoholism, > drugs, materialism, and values, and because of our corruptness that is > so world-wide pervasive. Thus, they were justified in these heinous acts > of terrorism. If we feel that their acts of terrorism against our > people - because of their view of how we live - was wrong, then how can > we justify military action against them because of how they live? Bible and the Koran both say that it is wrong to kill people. We don't think that alcoholism is good either. Our defence of our way of life can only be for the GOOD things about it. We must not, however, attack a whole people for the actions of a few evil individuals. > 5. If we deplore the treatment of women under the Taliban, how will war > with Afghanistan be good for the women of Afghanistan? Women and > children will be killed in our taking military action against the > Taliban. Will their deaths improve their lives? No. > 5a. Do we have weapons of war that will kill only adult males and spare > the women and children? And would that be any better? No, we don't. No, it wouldn't. > 5b. Are there ways that do not include war that we act on behalf of the > women of Afghanistan? Maybe if given their choice, they would prefer to > forgo education rather than suffer war and have us find alternate ways > to assist them. For sure, if they were given a choice, they may decide on another way of life. They don't have the choice. And we are back to the question of how much right does one nation have to interfere with another? > 6. The United States is precious to us all because of what it stands > for, what is basic to our self understanding. A basic American > principle is "innocent until proven guilty." Read the Constitution - > the 7th Amendment preserves the right to trial by jury for a civil suit > of $20 or more. Are we less concerned about having a presentation of > the evidence against bin Laden than we are for $20? I suppose you could argue that Bin Laden isn't a citizen of the US and so should not have the advantage of it's constitution. This is also probably a good time at which to repeat the subject of an international court/police force. This is something that has been strongly argued for, but which the US has rejected. It prefers to be the de facto 'policeman of the world', without being answerable to the world for it's actions in the way that a police force in a democracy is. > We have had yet no proof offered of Osama bin Laden's complicity in the > terrorism of September 11th. Do we adhere to the basic principles of > America only when the times are easy and abandon what makes America > great by casting out our basic principles when times are very difficult? There is proof, even admission of association at least, I think, with respect to the bombing of US embassies in Africa, and in the bombing of the WTC in the early 90s. That's probably enough to be in keeping with these principles. > Why not lay out our evidence against bin Laden in the war crimes > tribunal in the Hague, or in the United Nations, offering bin Laden the > choice to be present and rebut the evidence? We are defending the > United States after all, and the American way of life, so let us do it > the American way, as Americans, proud of our Constitution. Let me quote > the 6th Amendment: > > "In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a > speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district > wherein the > crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been > previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and > cause of the > accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have > compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the > > assistance of counsel for his defense. " Difficult in this case to see how Bin Laden would get an impartial jury in New York. Again, an international court would be better suited. He would never voluntarily attend of course, and so, if he is found guilty you are still stuck with the question of what action you take next. > If we cannot lay out the evidence before the world before we take > actions, we are violating the 6th Amendment, we violate the > Constitution, and we do harm to our own selves and what makes the United > States what it is. Are we ready to abandon the rule of law for the rule > of revenge? Are we ready to abandon our self-control in the heat of the > legitimate emotions we are feeling? This is the biggest long term danger that the US faces. It risks alienating the people who are coming on board at the moment by acting precipitously. Even in the unlikely event that bombing Afghanistan succeeds in killing Bin Laden and his cronies, in the long run, a lot of ammunition will be given to America's enemies who argue it's arrogance and irresponsibility. Other nations currently in the alliance will be seen to be equally 'guilty'. Bush's statement that all other nations are either with the US or with the terrorists, would seem to mean that nobody has the right to criticise the US in any degree whatsoever. It gives the US carte blanche to take any action it sees fit. Where then the 'alliance'? Indeed, where then is democracy, if no-one except the US has a legitimate voice? We have to remember in all of this, that this attack was an attack against the 'free world' - not just America. The UK suffered hundreds of casualties on that day, and dozens of other nations too. If this was an attack on all of us, then all of us have a right to respond. Not just the US. > 6a. For those who say that we cannot lay out evidence because it would > compromise security, not only does that violate the Constitution but it > is the tired old excuse of every dictatorship, every oppressive regime, > ever. In a free society, in our country, we do not have "secret > evidence." "Secret evidence" was the mainstay of the Soviet Union, Nazi > Germany, Idi Amin's Uganda, South Africa under apartheid, perhaps the > Taliban for all I know. I love my country and do not want it to go that > route. Do you? No. It's a tough call though isn't it? Evidence given out at this point will almost certainly help the terrorists to evade capture and justice. But it is indeed also the excuse given by oppressive regimes. > 6b. If we wage military action against Afghanistan to get at bin Laden, > we are waging war against a people - and thus innocent people will die. > How is that different from the deaths of innocent people on September > 11? I don't think that war should be waged against the Afghan people. I'm sure the vast majority of them disagree with his ideas and actions as much as we do. So, it is no different. Innocent people are innocent people. Thou shall not kill. > 6c. If Chile were to demand Henry Kissinger be handed over to a certain > death because of his well-documented role in the CIA's involvement in > the overthrow of Allende, and the terrorism that followed done by our > chosen leader, Pinochet, 3,000 Chileans "disappeared," would we turn > Kissinger over? Would Chile have the right to go to war against us? If > Chile says, if you support him, we will wage war on you, will we say, > well, ok, here you go, take Henry? Vince, you ask a very difficult question here. And it goes to the heart of one of the main reasons why there is so much resentment of the US around the world. It is very difficult to argue that what happened in Chile (and several other countries south of the US) weren't examples of the US sponsoring terrorism. Indeed, the Soviet Union would probably have described the help that the US gave Bin Laden in the Afghan war only a few years ago as 'state sponsored terrorism'. I'm not saying it was myself. But you can imagine that to a lot of people on the receiving end, this is exactly what it looks like. > 6d. There have been ample studies of the effects of war on people. The > results are counter-productive to the intended goal. People are not > cowered, they get united in their opposition to those who wage war > against them. We are not cowered by the events of September 11th; it > brought us together. London was not cowered by the Blitz; it brought > London together. Dresden was not cowered by the fire raids and carpet > bombing; they fought all the harder. Why do we think that if we take > military action against Afghanistan, the Taliban will crumble rather > than have its people rally around it? Again, good point. It will undoubtedly happen that the Taliban will find thousands of recruites amongst an otherwise ambivalent or even heretofor hostile population. > 7. What happens if bin Laden was not involved? What happens if it > turns out others were responsible? Do we go after bin Laden because of > his associations? That would violate basic principles in American > law. Again, the proofs must be laid out. Agin though, he is known to have been involved in earlier acts of terrorism. But the point here should be that the 'war against terrorism' should be that. Not a vendetta against a few individuals, but a multi-fronted attack on all the things that give breath to these people wherever they are. > 8. We strike at Afghanistan because we are victims of terrorism. In large > parts of the world, we will be seen as the evil actor and aggressor for > the overkill of our response, and for terror or war that we will inflict > as a natural consequence of war. Thus there will be those who will seek > vengeance on us through acts of terrorism against us. Thus our military > actions will not make us safer, but more vulnerable. Violence begets > violence; the blood of dead Afghans will be the nourishment for others > to take up the cause of terrorism against the United States. When does > the cycle of violence end, and when will we break it? The truth is Vince, that the cycle of violence will go on and on, because there are enough hurting people around to will it to. It will end when peoples with differing lifestyles are willing to be tolerant of each other, but frankly, the lesson of history is that it seldom happens at all, and even then, doesn't last. We should remember though, that having laws and a police force doesn't mean that no crimes are commited. Only that we have a mechanisn for catching the culprits. Whatever action we take now, will only mean at best that we can develope a system of control of terrorism. One of Tony Blair's slogans of a few years ago was, 'Tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime.' He has been seen to be neither, of course. But the sentiment would seem to be a good one. Can the free world be 'Tough on terrorism, tough on the causes of terrorism.'? > 9. Timothy McVeigh referred to the death of the children in the bombing > of the Murrah Building as "collateral damage." We were all correctly > appalled at his language and his thinking. In war, in the military > action that we propose, our government has already said that of course > the nature of war means collateral damage - the deaths of children and > other innocents. Why is collateral damage wrong when done by McVeigh > and right when done by our military acting on behalf of our nation? Collateral damage is the killing of innocents. It was wrong on the 11th of September. It will be wrong tomorrow. The easy mental cop-out is to say, "Well they're all guilty, they should have done something about it themselves if they thought otherwise. Kill 'em all." I've come across a few people like that recently (I'm talking off-list), and in every case, they prefaced such remarks with, "I'm not a racist, but..." > 10. Back to the Constitution which is the essence of what it means to > be an American - a nation of laws, not people. Do we violate our own > legal procedures by having no evidence, no proofs, no place where we lay > these things out for the international community to judge, no place for > bin Laden to hear the evidence against him (6th Amendment), no place to > gain a verdict in our favor that would give such moral force to our > cause of seeking punishment on those who did these terrorist acts on > September 11? Frankly, I wouldn't be upset if Bin Laden was to come to a painfull and drawn out death. It would please me most if, at the end of his excruciating torment, he realised the evil that he has sponsored, and that he will not go to heaven. But you are right again, I think. If we have laws that reflect what we think is right, then we are on shakey ground if we then start being selective about how we apply them. > Law, and our following that law, following the covenant of the > Constitution that makes us a nation of law, this defines the United > States and makes us the beacon of justice that we are. It is essential > to our nation especially at this time to adhere to our Constitution. > There must be a trial - before the War Crimes Tribunal, in absentia for > bin Laden if he so chooses, or in the United Nations, but someplace. > England and Libya came to agreement on how to try those accused in the > Lockerbee bombing. We can certainly do the same if we seek that route. > We must confirm our self-control and not act impulsively out of the > emotions of the events. > > The rule of law is essential to America. The last question: do you know > the words to "America," the words to "O beautiful for spacious skies." > I provide them for those who do not know all three verses: > > O beautiful for spacious skies, > For amber waves of grain; > For purple mountain majesties > Above the fruited plain! > America! America! > God shed His grace on thee, > And crown thy good with brotherhood, > From sea to shining sea. > > O beautiful for heroes proved > In liberating strife, > Who more than self their country loved, > And mercy more than life! > America! America! > May God thy gold refine, > Till all success be nobleness, > And every gain divine. > > O beautiful for patriot dream > That sees beyond the years > Thine alabaster cities gleam, > Undimmed by human tears! > America! America! > God mend thine every flaw, > Confirm thy soul in self control, > Thy liberty in law. ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2001 #439 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?