From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2001 #427 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Friday, September 21 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 427 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- NJC - Brenda/Kakki/Kate debate ["Mike Pritchard" ] Birthdays (NJC) [FMYFL@aol.com] NJC - re: Brenda / Kakki / Kate debate ["Mike Pritchard" ] Thank you (NJC) ["Marian" ] Re: israel (njc) ["Lori R. Fye" ] for the musicians here (njc) [jan ] "A Tribute to Heros"/Equinox (njc) [JRMCo1@aol.com] Re: "A Tribute to Heros"/Equinox (njc) [JRMCo1@aol.com] [none] ["shane mattison" ] (NJC) Happy, Happy ["Lori R. Fye" ] Speaking of Chomsky - Very Long and Very NJC [Jerry Notaro ] RE: Subject: Re: NJC Re: seasons go round VLJC ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: NJC - Kakki/Kate/Brenda Debate ["Brenda J. Walker" ] Re: Why meeeeeeeee? WHY NOT ME!!! NJC ["Garret" ] "Loney planet" - special site on afghanistan (njc) ["shane mattison" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 13:20:54 +0200 From: "Mike Pritchard" Subject: NJC - Brenda/Kakki/Kate debate Kakki wrote: >Well, when we try to "export" our notions of freedom, it gets us in hot water. Maybe people just don't agree with your notions of freedom. For example, ask the Chileans who voted democratically and freely for a government led by Allende and who were soon defeated in a military coup led by Pinochet with the aid of Kissinger, William Colby et al under the guise of 'restoring freedom'. As Kissenger said, "I don't see why we should have to stand by and let a country go communist due to the irresponsibility of its own people". One person's sees 'irresponsibility' while the country itself believes it has made a free, democratic choice. Of course there are many excellent qualities in the US's notion of freedom, and I applaud them, but please understand that other people have other views which are equally acceptable and legitimate. I am NOT talking here about terrorist responses. >I don't agree in exploiting people, but those people coming here from Latin America have a much >better chance and opportunity than they do in their native countries. Yes they do, absolutely, and my response to your statement is 'Why is that?' >So I am not some fat, spoiled capitalist American who has never known hardship and >does not know >what it is like to struggle. I never suggested that you (Kakki) conformed to some stereotypical image of a 'capitalist American' nor do I think you are. I wasn't speaking personally. I didn't even mention any image, nor did I have one in mind while posting. I was merely saying that success comes at a price and that there is a causal relationship between wealth and poverty, not just in terms of the present North American and Latin American economies but historically and globally. >I am relieved that you are not singling us out here. Other countries should take a look in the mirror, >especially the very corrupt and oppressive ones. I do think we deserve some credit for all the aid we >have sent around the world for decades (whether we applied it appropriately or not - we meant well >and at least did something). My whole point is that I don't think the USA should be singled out, but neither should they, or anyone, be exempt from criticism when it is fairly argued and well intentioned. I agree that other countries should look at themselves in the mirror, especially corrupt and oppressive ones. I agree that the USA deserves a lot of credit for the aid it has sent over the years, including financial, military and cultural aid. Respectfully, Mike in Barcelona. NP: Costello, 'Shipbuilding' ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 12:14:16 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Birthdays (NJC) Chiming in with a BIG Happy Birthday to Marian and to my Scottish sister Heather!!! Hope you both have(or had) a super b-day!!! deputy BDF, Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 18:30:18 +0200 From: "Mike Pritchard" Subject: NJC - re: Brenda / Kakki / Kate debate *I tried to send this earlier today but I think I was unable to reach the server. If it DID arrive, please delete this repeated version. Thanks, Mike. Kakki wrote: >Well, when we try to "export" our notions of freedom, it gets us in hot water. Maybe people just don't agree with your notions of freedom. For example, ask the Chileans who voted democratically and freely for a government led by Allende and who were soon defeated in a military coup led by Pinochet with the aid of Kissinger, William Colby et al under the guise of 'restoring freedom'. As Kissenger said, "I don't see why we should have to stand by and let a country go communist due to the irresponsibility of its own people". One person's sees 'irresponsibility' while the country itself believes it has made a free, democratic choice. Of course there are many excellent qualities in the US's notion of freedom, and I applaud them, but please understand that other people have other views which are equally acceptable and legitimate. I am NOT talking here about terrorist responses. >I don't agree in exploiting people, but those people coming here from Latin America have a much >better chance and opportunity than they do in their native countries. Yes they do, absolutely, and my response to your statement is 'Why is that?' >So I am not some fat, spoiled capitalist American who has never known hardship and >does not know >what it is like to struggle. I never suggested that you (Kakki) conformed to some stereotypical image of a 'capitalist American' nor do I think you are. I wasn't speaking personally. I didn't even mention any image, nor did I have one in mind while posting. I was merely saying that success comes at a price and that there is a causal relationship between wealth and poverty, not just in terms of the present North American and Latin American economies but historically and globally. >I am relieved that you are not singling us out here. Other countries should take a look in the mirror, >especially the very corrupt and oppressive ones. I do think we deserve some credit for all the aid we >have sent around the world for decades (whether we applied it appropriately or not - we meant well >and at least did something). My whole point is that I don't think the USA should be singled out, but neither should they, or anyone, be exempt from criticism when it is fairly argued and well intentioned. I agree that other countries should look at themselves in the mirror, especially corrupt and oppressive ones. I agree that the USA deserves a lot of credit for the aid it has sent over the years, including financial, military and cultural aid. Respectfully, Mike in Barcelona. NP: Costello, 'Shipbuilding' ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 09:13:32 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: NJC - Brenda/Kakki/Kate debate Hi Mike: > Maybe people just don't agree with your notions of >freedom. For example, ask the Chileans who voted >democratically and freely for a government led by > Allende and who were soon defeated in a military coup >led by Pinochet with the aid of Kissinger, William Colby >et al under the guise of 'restoring freedom'. As Kissenger >said, "I don't see why we should have to stand by and >let a country go communist due to the irresponsibility of >its own people". It's easy to sit back now from an armchair view and discuss something that happened 30 years ago in the present context. I doubt any of us our experts as to why the U.S. took the stance it did at the time or whether it was wise or not. I just mean this generally and am not looking to discuss the past situation in Chile. The thing that I don't think some non-Americans realize is that we are usually criticizing ourselves very much as we go along. The way we handled the situation in Chile was dissented in the U.S. at the time as was our involvement in Vietnam. There is a certain smugness in non-Americans that irritates us because it always acts like we are completely clueless and unknowing about our effect on the world. As for people living under communism, we have had millions of them flee to our country and many of us work alongside them. I used to work with Vietnamese refugees who came here after the fall in 1975. They used to ask me despairingly "why did you ever leave us??" All the refugees who have come here from Communist countries have been given special aid, interest-free grants to start businesses or attend college, housing, and public assistance. How many Communist countries are left at this point? Most have fallen. They have all proven to be brutal - remember the Cambodia holocaust? China maintains its top position on Amnesty International's list of human rights violators. > Yes they do, absolutely, and my response to your statement is 'Why is that?' They have a better chance because they have an oppotunity to improve their lives and the lives of their families and break out of the cycle of poverty. The Latinos who come to California are given free school education for their children and free medical care. The Bush administration has legislation on the board to give all undocumented workers in American amnesty, like Reagan did back in the 80s. This will give them the chance for citizenship and all the protections as far as wages, public assistance if they need it, etc.. >I was merely saying that success comes at a price and >that there is a causal relationship between wealth and >poverty, not just in terms of the present North American >and Latin American economies but historically and >globally. I only told you my background because it really is not that different than anyone else who starts at the bottom here and works their way up. Just because I was a citizen didn't mean I was any less burdened in supporting myself and making a living. I might also add, that I know many Americans who had to struggle as I did - it's not that unusual. It's not fun but at least we have a way out eventually - something that people in many other countries never have. They are usually stuck in their "caste" or circumstance for life. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 18:49:09 +0200 From: "Marian" Subject: Thank you (NJC) Dear Rose, Steve, Victor, and anyone who has written since the last digest to wish me happy birthday - Thank you so much for the birthday wishes! It's very heartwarming to get some many good wishes from everyone. Rose, I hope you will try to do some JOni songs, even tho' you're not taking standard tuning guitar lessons any more. It's fun to try learning Joni's songs by playing along with her recordings. With repetition it all gets easier and you will get better and better. I left work early today - and am not on live Joni at home, but will try to keep in touch with all as best I can. Have had nice celebration at home with family - thoughtful cards and presents - one of the nicer birthdays I can remember. Marian marian@jmdl.com http://www.jmdl.com/guitar/marian/guitar.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 10:32:45 -0700 (PDT) From: "Lori R. Fye" Subject: Re: israel (njc) shane wrote: > this kooky idea didn't merit a reply, but > for the record: > > the argument that israel knew in advance of the > attack on the WTC is absurd, false, and , duh, dumb... Thank you, Shane. I think you're right, especially in view of the fact that the only place I can seem to find any mention of this is on this site: http://www.manartv.com And also in view of this, from Ron, which seems like a bit of "baiting" ... but you wouldn't do that, would you, Ron? > & something for the bill gates conspiracy theorists - try the following > > type Q33NY (must be uppercase) > > make it large > > change the font to "wingdings" Lori in MD ~ __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 10:29:39 -0700 From: jan Subject: for the musicians here (njc) Check out these pedals: http://commonsound.com/3ms/main.html - -jan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 13:51:22 EDT From: JRMCo1@aol.com Subject: "A Tribute to Heros"/Equinox (njc) You all are area of the 2-hour, commercial-free telethon called "America: A Tribute to the Heros" airing tonight on virtually every network in the U.S. from 9-11 p.m. tonight (Friday), right? There's going to be a galaxy of stars on the program, including Stevie Wonder, Neil Young, Bruce Springsteen, Sheryl Crow, Paul Simon, Tom Petty and Alicia Keyes. It should rock. Some movie/televison stars are going to be manning/womaning the phones, so if you call in a pledge, you might get to speak to, like, Clint Eastwood or Julia Roberts! Speaking of stars, tonight marks the Autumnal Equinox, which is a pretty cool phenomenon, I think! You see, if you photograph the position of the sun in the sky at the same time every day, over the course of a year it would trace out a figure-eight in the sky. Why does this happen, you ask? The Earth is tilted on its axis 23.5 degrees in relation to the plane of its orbit around the sun. OK, great. But if that's all that was happening, the path traced out in the sky would just move back and forth along a straight line. So something else is going on: the Earth doesn't orbit the sun in a circle... but in an ellipse. When you sum these two motions together over a year, you get what's known as an an "analemma." The effect has been understood for a couple of thousand years (analemmas are inscribed on almost every schoolhouse globe), but because of the time involved and the delicacy of the long-term exposure, only a handful of photographs have ever been successfully captured. You might have guessed by now that the vernal and autumnal equinoxes occur at the crossing-point of the figure eight. Just thought I'd go celestial on you... Have a great weekend, my dear JMDL. - -Julius ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 13:59:54 EDT From: JRMCo1@aol.com Subject: Re: "A Tribute to Heros"/Equinox (njc) Oops. I meant "aware," not "area." Sorry 'bout that. - -Julius ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 12:15:50 -0600 From: "shane mattison" Subject: [none] happy birthday marion and heather... ...a poem by donald hall, born sept.20 entitled "Ox Cart Man": http://www.izaak.unh.edu/specoll/exhibits/ocmny.htm shane ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 11:06:28 -0700 (PDT) From: "Lori R. Fye" Subject: (NJC) Happy, Happy Happy, Happy Birthday to Marian and Heather!!! Lori in MD ~ __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 14:11:19 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Speaking of Chomsky - Very Long and Very NJC Interviewing Chomsky Radio B92, Belgrade Why do you think these attacks happened? To answer the question we must first identify the perpetrators of the crimes. It is generally assumed, plausibly, that their origin is the Middle East region, and that the attacks probably trace back to the Osama Bin Laden network, a widespread and complex organization, doubtless inspired by Bin Laden but not necessarily acting under his control. Let us assume that this is true. Then to answer your question a sensible person would try to ascertain Bin Laden's views, and the sentiments of the large reservoir of supporters he has throughout the region. About all of this, we have a great deal of information. Bin Laden has been interviewed extensively over the years by highly reliable Middle East specialists, notably the most eminent correspondent in the region, Robert Fisk (London _Independent_), who has intimate knowledge of the entire region and direct experience over decades. A Saudi Arabian millionaire, Bin Laden became a militant Islamic leader in the war to drive the Russians out of Afghanistan. He was one of the many religious fundamentalist extremists recruited, armed, and financed by the CIA and their allies in Pakistani intelligence to cause maximal harm to the Russians -- quite possibly delaying their withdrawal, many analysts suspect -- though whether he personally happened to have direct contact with the CIA is unclear, and not particularly important. Not surprisingly, the CIA preferred the most fanatic and cruel fighters they could mobilize. The end result was to "destroy a moderate regime and create a fanatical one, from groups recklessly financed by the Americans" (_London Times_ correspondent Simon Jenkins, also a specialist on the region). These "Afghanis" as they are called (many, like Bin Laden, not from Afghanistan) carried out terror operations across the border in Russia, but they terminated these after Russia withdrew. Their war was not against Russia, which they despise, but against the Russian occupation and Russia's crimes against Muslims. The "Afghanis" did not terminate their activities, however. They joined Bosnian Muslim forces in the Balkan Wars; the US did not object, just as it tolerated Iranian support for them, for complex reasons that we need not pursue here, apart from noting that concern for the grim fate of the Bosnians was not prominent among them. The "Afghanis" are also fighting the Russians in Chechnya, and, quite possibly, are involved in carrying out terrorist attacks in Moscow and elsewhere in Russian territory. Bin Laden and his "Afghanis" turned against the US in 1990 when they established permanent bases in Saudi Arabia -- from his point of view, a counterpart to the Russian occupation of Afghanistan, but far more significant because of Saudi Arabia's special status as the guardian of the holiest shrines. Bin Laden is also bitterly opposed to the corrupt and repressive regimes of the region, which he regards as "un-Islamic," including the Saudi Arabian regime, the most extreme Islamic fundamentalist regime in the world, apart from the Taliban, and a close US ally since its origins. Bin Laden despises the US for its support of these regimes. Like others in the region, he is also outraged by long-standing US support for Israel's brutal military occupation, now in its 35th year: Washington's decisive diplomatic, military, and economic intervention in support of the killings, the harsh and destructive siege over many years, the daily humiliation to which Palestinians are subjected, the expanding settlements designed to break the occupied territories into Bantustan-like cantons and take control of the resources, the gross violation of the Geneva Conventions, and other actions that are recognized as crimes throughout most of the world, apart from the US, which has prime responsibility for them. And like others, he contrasts Washington's dedicated support for these crimes with the decade-long US-British assault against the civilian population of Iraq, which has devastated the society and caused hundreds of thousands of deaths while strengthening Saddam Hussein -- who was a favored friend and ally of the US and Britain right through his worst atrocities, including the gassing of the Kurds, as people of the region also remember well, even if Westerners prefer to forget the facts. These sentiments are very widely shared. The _Wall Street Journal_ (Sept. 14) published a survey of opinions of wealthy and privileged Muslims in the Gulf region (bankers, professionals, businessmen with close links to the U.S.). They expressed much the same views: resentment of the U.S. policies of supporting Israeli crimes and blocking the international consensus on a diplomatic settlement for many years while devastating Iraqi civilian society, supporting harsh and repressive anti-democratic regimes throughout the region, and imposing barriers against economic development by "propping up oppressive regimes." Among the great majority of people suffering deep poverty and oppression, similar sentiments are far more bitter, and are the source of the fury and despair that has led to suicide bombings, as commonly understood by those who are interested in the facts. The U.S., and much of the West, prefers a more comforting story. To quote the lead analysis in the _New York Times_ (Sept. 16), the perpetrators acted out of "hatred for the values cherished in the West as freedom, tolerance, prosperity, religious pluralism and universal suffrage." U.S. actions are irrelevant, and therefore need not even be mentioned (Serge Schmemann). This is a convenient picture, and the general stance is not unfamiliar in intellectual history; in fact, it is close to the norm. It happens to be completely at variance with everything we know, but has all the merits of self-adulation and uncritical support for power. It is also widely recognized that Bin Laden and others like him are praying for "a great assault on Muslim states," which will cause "fanatics to flock to his cause" (Jenkins, and many others.). That too is familiar. The escalating cycle of violence is typically welcomed by the harshest and most brutal elements on both sides, a fact evident enough from the recent history of the Balkans, to cite only one of many cases. What consequences will they have on US inner policy and to the American self reception? US policy has already been officially announced. The world is being offered a "stark choice": join us, or "face the certain prospect of death and destruction." Congress has authorized the use of force against any individuals or countries the President determines to be involved in the attacks, a doctrine that every supporter regards as ultra-criminal. That is easily demonstrated. Simply ask how the same people would have reacted if Nicaragua had adopted this doctrine after the U.S. had rejected the orders of the World Court to terminate its "unlawful use of force" against Nicaragua and had vetoed a Security Council resolution calling on all states to observe international law. And that terrorist attack was far more severe and destructive even than this atrocity. As for how these matters are perceived here, that is far more complex. One should bear in mind that the media and the intellectual elites generally have their particular agendas. Furthermore, the answer to this question is, in significant measure, a matter of decision: as in many other cases, with sufficient dedication and energy, efforts to stimulate fanaticism, blind hatred, and submission to authority can be reversed. We all know that very well. Do you expect U.S. to profoundly change their policy to the rest of the world? The initial response was to call for intensifying the policies that led to the fury and resentment that provides the background of support for the terrorist attack, and to pursue more intensively the agenda of the most hard line elements of the leadership: increased militarization, domestic regimentation, attack on social programs. That is all to be expected. Again, terror attacks, and the escalating cycle of violence they often engender, tend to reinforce the authority and prestige of the most harsh and repressive elements of a society. But there is nothing inevitable about submission to this course. After the first shock, came fear of what the U.S. answer is going to be. Are you afraid, too? Every sane person should be afraid of the likely reaction -- the one that has already been announced, the one that probably answers Bin Laden's prayers. It is highly likely to escalate the cycle of violence, in the familiar way, but in this case on a far greater scale. The U.S. has already demanded that Pakistan terminate the food and other supplies that are keeping at least some of the starving and suffering people of Afghanistan alive. If that demand is implemented, unknown numbers of people who have not the remotest connection to terrorism will die, possibly millions. Let me repeat: the U.S. has demanded that Pakistan kill possibly millions of people who are themselves victims of the Taliban. This has nothing to do even with revenge. It is at a far lower moral level even than that. The significance is heightened by the fact that this is mentioned in passing, with no comment, and probably will hardly be noticed. We can learn a great deal about the moral level of the reigning intellectual culture of the West by observing the reaction to this demand. I think we can be reasonably confident that if the American population had the slightest idea of what is being done in their name, they would be utterly appalled. It would be instructive to seek historical precedents. If Pakistan does not agree to this and other U.S. demands, it may come under direct attack as well -- with unknown consequences. If Pakistan does submit to U.S. demands, it is not impossible that the government will be overthrown by forces much like the Taliban -- who in this case will have nuclear weapons. That could have an effect throughout the region, including the oil producing states. At this point we are considering the possibility of a war that may destroy much of human society. Even without pursuing such possibilities, the likelihood is that an attack on Afghans will have pretty much the effect that most analysts expect: it will enlist great numbers of others to support of Bin Laden, as he hopes. Even if he is killed, it will make little difference. His voice will be heard on cassettes that are distributed throughout the Islamic world, and he is likely to be revered as a martyr, inspiring others. It is worth bearing in mind that one suicide bombing -- a truck driven into a U.S. military base -- drove the world's major military force out of Lebanon 20 years ago. The opportunities for such attacks are endless. And suicide attacks are very hard to prevent. "The world will never be the same after 11.09.01". Do you think so? The horrendous terrorist attacks on Tuesday are something quite new in world affairs, not in their scale and character, but in the target. For the US, this is the first time since the War of 1812 that its national territory has been under attack, even threat. It's colonies have been attacked, but not the national territory itself. During these years the US virtually exterminated the indigenous population, conquered half of Mexico, intervened violently in the surrounding region, conquered Hawaii and the Philippines (killing hundreds of thousands of Filipinos), and in the past half century particularly, extended its resort to force throughout much of the world. The number of victims is colossal. For the first time, the guns have been directed the other way. The same is true, even more dramatically, of Europe. Europe has suffered murderous destruction, but from internal wars, meanwhile conquering much of the world with extreme brutality. It has not been under attack by its victims outside, with rare exceptions (the IRA in England, for example). It is therefore natural that NATO should rally to the support of the US; hundreds of years of imperial violence have an enormous impact on the intellectual and moral culture. It is correct to say that this is a novel event in world history, not because of the scale of the atrocity - -- regrettably -- but because of the target. How the West chooses to react is a matter of supreme importance. If the rich and powerful choose to keep to their traditions of hundreds of years and resort to extreme violence, they will contribute to the escalation of a cycle of violence, in a familiar dynamic, with long-term consequences that could be awesome. Of course, that is by no means inevitable. An aroused public within the more free and democratic societies can direct policies towards a much more humane and honorable course. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 11:46:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: Attention Dallas area members ... Anyone up for a MiniFest in Dallas? A small "refuge of the road"? I ask since I'll be in town next weekend, from Sept. 27-30 for my 20th High School reunion. But that doesn't mean there won't be some time for a get together if anyone's available and/or interested. Drop me a line ... look forward to hearing from, and hopefully, meeting you in person! Don Rowe ===== Visit me anytime at http://www.mp3.com/donrowe ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 11:28:51 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: Subject: Re: NJC Re: seasons go round VLJC Thank you. This is what I need to hear right now to remind me that I am doing the right thing! Diane wrote "I think you're so right to do it, though. We have a friend who, at age 49, has never left his parents' home for more than a few months at a time. He has become more dependant upon them as the years pass than he was before." ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 21:01:36 +0200 From: "Mike Pritchard" Subject: NJC - Kakki Mike debate? was Kakki/Brenda/Kate debate Hi Kakki >>It's easy to sit back now from an armchair view and discuss something that happened 30 years ago in the present context. I doubt any of us are experts as to why the U.S. took the stance it did at the time or whether it was wise or not. I just mean this generally and am not looking to discuss the past situation in Chile.<< I'm not looking to discuss the past in Chile either. It was just an example of another viewpoint. End of story. One need not, however, be an expert to see why the US took that stance. It was a continuation of its 'Manifest Destiny' policy that dates back to the 1840s and was the ideological basis for the 'annexation' of between 33% and 50% of Mexican land which was later to become 10 of the states (or parts of them) of the USA. >>The way we handled the situation in Chile was dissented in the U.S. at the time as was our involvement in Vietnam.<< I was especially proud of the role of the (mostly) young people at the time of the Vietnam war. It just seems (maybe only 'seems') such a contrast to a lot of present day US attitudes to operations 'Desert Storm' and 'Infinite Justice' (sic) for instance. >> There is a certain smugness in non-Americans that irritates us because it always acts like we are completely clueless and unknowing about our effect on the world.<< I know what you mean and to a large extent I agree with you, and accept that smugness is easy to succumb to (myself included). That doesn't justify it. I would say, however that I believe the smugness is not (only) about US citizens being clueless, it is also (or even more so) about the fact that we (the smugees) suspect that the USA is NOT clueless and unknowing but rather is too knowing and too little caring. This opinion may be unfair too but it is, I think, closer to the reason for the smugness. >> All the refugees who have come here from Communist countries have been given special aid, interest-free grants to start businesses or attend college, housing, and public assistance.<< I think this is wonderful and should be imitated more by many other countries, including my own and my adopted country (Wales and Spain, respectively). >> They [Latinos] have a better chance because they have an opportunity to improve their lives and the lives of their families and break out of the cycle of poverty.<< Agreed. How did they get into the cycle of poverty? >> The Latinos who come to California are given free school education for their children and free medical care. << Fantastic, admirable. So what happened to California Proposition 227 and other 'anti-immigrant' legislation and/or proposals? (A genuine question, not an ironic or rhetorical one). >> The Bush administration has legislation on the board to give all undocumented workers in American amnesty, like Reagan did back in the 80s. This will give them the chance for citizenship and all the protections as far as wages, public assistance if they need it, etc.<< Do you think this will happen? (A genuine question, not an ironic or rhetorical one). Kakki, we obviously disagree on many points but debate should always be respectful. I will always respect your opinions. Thanks for replying to my points politely and not getting into abuse. Later. Regards, Mike. NP: 'Across the Borderline' Ry Cooder (and Harry Dean Stanton). ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 15:01:46 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: NJC Re: and the painted ponies bite your hands VLJC << WHy not me? I guess it will come when it comes.. Maybe I am too picky. >> Could be, Blair...like the old song says, don't overlook an orchid while looking for a rose...not that there's anything wrong with Roses, mind you, I know a real SWEET one! ;~) I don't mean to play Dear Abby, but if you're seeking a significant other, put yourself in circulation more. Join clubs, look in the paper for meetings of people with similar interests. Let your friends, co-workers know that you're in the market, and let them set you up. Or, do volunteer activities, community theatre, etc. You may not find the right combination right away, but eventually something will click. Bob NP: They Might Be Giants, "Mr. Xcitement" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 12:02:50 -0700 From: "Brenda J. Walker" Subject: Re: NJC - Brenda/Kakki/Kate debate You know, Kakki I wish I could agree with this. I'm too young to comment on the attitudes of the people re: Vietnam and Chile. (I remember Nicaragua and it seemed like most average Americans didn't even know what the hell was going on.) But I think I am justified in my concern for what is happening right now. I'm astutely aware that there has been no official mention of what our role will be in Pakistan. The potential for conflict there is great whatever the Pakistan government chooses. Again, if anyone has read any statements by Secretaries Powell or Rumsfeld that speak on this, please let me know. A few days ago (it could have even been last week), there was a Gallop editor on CNN. The comment was made that although Congress hasn't done so, the American people have given the President a "blank check" for the battle against terrorism. Of course, we can infer many things about polls, but it seems that the general atmosphere of comments made from people around the nation (I listened to many of CSPAN callers after the speech last night) falls in line with the polling. Now maybe things will be different. But there was one comment in the President's speech that should put us on alert: "Our response involves far more than instant retaliation and isolated strikes. Americans should not expect one battle, but a lengthy campaign unlike any other we have ever seen. It may include dramatic strikes visible on TV and covert operations secret even in success." I am not naive; I know that there are covert operations in most of our foreign initiatives (and domestic ones for that matter). However, you can't dissent from what you don't know about. Brenda n.p.: Majek Fashek - "Send Down the Rain" On 21 Sep 2001, at 9:13, Kakki wrote: The thing that I don't think some non-Americans realize is that we are usually criticizing ourselves very much as we go along. The way we handled the situation in Chile was dissented in the U.S. at the time as was our involvement in Vietnam. There is a certain smugness in non-Americans that irritates us because it always acts like we are completely clueless and unknowing about our effect on the world. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 15:27:58 -0400 From: Bruyere Subject: Re: NJC Re: seasons go round VLJC Nicely said Sherelle. I have this plaque at the bottom of my stairs that says: "There are two things you should give your children .... One of them is roots and the other is wings." Sounds like you did just that. :-) When my granddaughter comes over she sleeps in my daughters room. Glad I didn't turn that room into something else! As ever, Heather At 10:30 PM 9/20/01 -0400, RobSher50@aol.com wrote: >Hi Suze (your old friend here), >My daughter is twenty-three and I had to shut the door to her room for two >weeks before I could get used to her not being around. My advice to you is to >not be afraid to cry for that which is being left behind. After you have >gotten it out of your system, start feeling hopeful for what is to come. It >will be a completely different, but just as wonderful experience. > >The goal that we have as parents is to get our children to a place in life >where they become self-sufficient and able to take care of themselves. >Graduating from high school is just one of those steps we need to help our >children take. My happiest moment was the day my daughter, April graduated >from college, the first in our family to attain a four year degree. It was my >happiest moment because I knew she had the tools of survival. I knew there >were no guarantees, but at least she had a fighting chance. My second >proudest moment was when she started her first day as a junior engineer for a >technology company. > >So go ahead and cry on their graduation day, but also be proud of what you >and your husband have helped them to accomplish. Hope this helps. > >Sherelle >NP-In my head, The Circle Game (And the seasons, they go round and round and >the painted pony goes up and down....) > >In a message dated 09/20/2001 5:36:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time, les@jmdl.com >writes: > > > > Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 11:57:33 -0400 > > From: "Suze Cameron" > > Subject: Re: NJC Re: seasons go round VLJC > > > > Hi Diane, > > > > I was thinking of how you were doing with this having spoken about it in > > June. I get all teary-eyed thinking of when my girls go off on their own > > two years from now. What will be hard is their graduation as my > husband is > > on the school board and hands out the diplomas and I am their advisor and > > have to give a speech. Don't know how I will get through it without a big > > boo-hoo (attemping Joni content). > > > > Advice from other listers? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 12:35:19 -0700 From: "Brenda J. Walker" Subject: Re: NJC - Kakki/Kate/Brenda Debate I've been giving this consideration all morning. And here is the short of it. I expect them to be interested in education and balance if it is demanded of them. I am not a student of journalism history so I can't speak on the origins of the "free press" in our country. There certainly seemed to be a turning point with Hearst. However, many of the media conglomerates are publicly owned. Take AOL-Time Warner for example. If I own one share of AOL-Time Warner stock or if I own a single share in a mutual fund which owns AOL-TW (leaving out for a moment if I have a right because my taxes inevitably subsidize their business) I have the right to say something about their policies at CNN, Time magazine, or NY1 News. And perhaps a movement to change the media would have to be a grass roots approach, levied by shareholders. I don't know that it is likely to happen or yield a result but it is at least possible. I'm just looking for ideas... Thanks for taking up the debate. (Check this out for more of who owns what: http://www.cjr.org/owners/index.asp ) Brenda n.p.: KCRW - The World On 21 Sep 2001, at 10:17, Mike Pritchard wrote: >>What can we do to demand that the media report more responsibly and work harder to actually educate the nation about a balanced slate of things that matter? (This is not a rhetorical question.)<< Given that almost since its inception the media has too-frequently been used by powerful individuals and powerful corporations to further their own ends, why should you expect it/them to be interested in 'education' and 'balance' now? (This is not a flippant answer). ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 13:57:15 -0600 From: "shane mattison" Subject: chretien government cowardice (njc) what's going on in canada: http://www.canoe.ca/TorontoNews/ts.ts-09-21-0007.html that's just the tip of the iceberg... shane ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 12:33:15 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: NJC - Kakki Mike debate? was Kakki/Brenda/Kate debate Mike wrote: > I was especially proud of the role of the (mostly) young >people at the time of the Vietnam war. It just seems >(maybe only 'seems') such a contrast to a lot of present day US attitudes to operations 'Desert Storm' and 'Infinite > Justice' (sic) for instance. I can't see where you think that. Vietnam was protested largely in part because it was our war. The current war IS ours - we have been attacked with thousands murdered on our own ground. > Agreed. How did they [Latinos] get into the cycle of >poverty? It's roots got directly back to the Spanish Conquistadores who did much to the native countries what some of our American ancestors did. The huge difference is that we evolved and changed and made reparations to a large extent. The Spanish elite never did, at least not on a scale to where the people have any chance to share in the prosperity and natural resources of their country. I'm not thinking so much of South America here, but rather Central America and Mexico. Mexico's corrupt elite are as entrenched as they ever were. They give lip service to their people by presurring the U.S. to take in more and more of their people. I recall a terrible storm which completely flooded out the border town of Tijuana a few years back and killed many people. Tijuana is one of the largest and economically richest cities in Mexico (from our U.S. dollars) and they did not even have a sewage system. Raw sewage flowed everywhere from the storm and flowed into the ocean (as it has there for years). It was Americans who came to their help through government and private dollars. > Fantastic, admirable. So what happened to California >Proposition 227 and other 'anti-immigrant' legislation >and/or proposals? (A genuine question, not an > ironic or rhetorical one). I have no idea, truthfully. > Do you think this will happen? (A genuine question, not >an ironic or rhetorical one). Before our current crisis, Bush was stubbornly and resolutely standing on this one. Check out this article from a few days before the terrorist hit us http://www.ocregister.com/news/bush00905cci3.shtml I assume this will be backburnered now since we are in a state of emergency, and sentiment is not exactly riding high on anyone who is in our country under undocumented status. Security concerns, you know. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 12:34:27 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: NJC - Kakki Mike debate? was Kakki/Brenda/Kate debate Sorry - I meant to say Vietnam was NOT our war. > I can't see where you think that. Vietnam was >protested largely in part because it was our war. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 15:59:30 EDT From: RobSher50@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC Re: seasons go round VLJC Dear Heather, I love the saying on your plaque! I have several sticky notes lying around with wonderful sayings and I will certainly add this one to them. It's perfect! Sherelle In a message dated 09/21/2001 12:30:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time, chiaroscuro@snet.net writes: > Nicely said Sherelle. I have this plaque at the bottom of my stairs that > says: > > "There are two things you should give your children .... One of them is > roots and the other is wings." > Sounds like you did just that. :-) > When my granddaughter comes over she sleeps in my daughters room. Glad I > didn't turn that room into something else! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 12:43:44 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Speaking of Chomsky - Very Long and Very NJC I wonder if Chomsky or Fisk would be willing to do a house exchange with me now. I'll go to London or Belgrade for awhile and they can have a nice apartment and a room with a view right in the center of downtown Los Angeles. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 16:13:22 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Sheryl Crow, Gillian Welch, Emmylou alert (NJC) According to The Late Show (Letterman) Web site, they are all scheduled to be on tonight. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 13:08:53 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: NJC - Kakki/Kate/Brenda/Mike Debate First of all LOL at the growing list of names on this debate ;~) I think when exploitation of workers is discussed, we must be very careful to take into consideration that what in the USA seems like a very meager wage, is in another country an acceptable one. Mike, I am not sure that you are saying this, but I have heard many people throw these ideas around without considering the relative nature of wages & without any real knowledge of what the lives of these "exploited workers" were like before they were employed. I am not saying that there are not legitimate claims for exploitation but what I am saying is that the issue is often more complex than what many people (who mean well) understand it to be. "One of the major sports equipment companies in the world pays (or used to pay when I did the research) a blind, 11 year-old Punjabi girl named Sonia less money than it takes to buy a litre of milk. Per day, not per hour. She gets this for sewing the soccer balls" ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 16:29:49 EDT From: RobSher50@aol.com Subject: Re: supporting arab-americans (njc) Dear Walt, I think those signs are an excellent idea! What a wonderful way for non-Arab Americans to show solidarity that we will not allow the hatred to continue. Sherelle In a message dated 09/21/2001 9:04:37 AM Pacific Daylight Time, les@jmdl.com writes: > Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 12:00:35 EDT > From: BigWaltinSF@aol.com > Subject: Re: supporting arab-americans (njc) > > In my neighborhood (Hayes Valley in S.F.) there are two Arab-American owned > businesses, a health food store and a corner market. Every store in the > neighborhood, and many in the city, have bright orange NO HATE ZONE signs > in ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 20:25:02 +0100 From: "Garret" Subject: HAPPY BIRTHDAYS TO THE LADIES i want to add my voice to this chorus too:-) Love and Luck Marian and Heather. GARRET NP- Bjork, Big Time Sensuality (MTV Unplugged) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 20:20:18 +0100 From: "Garret" Subject: Re: Why meeeeeeeee? WHY NOT ME!!! NJC Mary said: >as a new JMDL-er, I agree with Azeem in terms of not knowing what is being >referred to. If I searched the archives, I wouldn't have a clue as to what I'm >looking for. Could someone help me out, maybe by emailing me off-list? I'd >appreciate it. Well, i'm not a a new JMDL-er anymore Mary, and i have no idea what's being referred to. Although i'm ever so curious, i think that i'd rather not know since it sounds as if some people were offended by whatever transpired and it mightn't do any good to ressurrect this issue. GARRET ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 15:12:41 -0600 From: "shane mattison" Subject: "Loney planet" - special site on afghanistan (njc) a 'humungous' site about afghanistan by the non-political hippie, gen-ex, and world geographer travellors form "the lonely planet", specialty channels' entertaining travel specialists, which if you use their extensive menu on the left, really gives you anything you need to know on this unfortunate country... http://www.lonelyplanet.com/destinations/middle_east/afghanistan/index.htm shane ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 16:22:51 -0500 From: "William Waddell" Subject: Dream Festival Copied from the BBC's website today - an interview with Kiki Dee _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2001 #427 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?