From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2001 #425 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Friday, September 21 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 425 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Why meeeeeeeee? WHY NOT ME!!! [Brian Gross ] Re: An American Voice - NJC [PMcfad@aol.com] Re: Why meeeeeeeee? WHY NOT ME!!! [] Re: Why meeeeeeeee? WHY NOT ME!!! [AzeemAK@aol.com] Subject: Re: NJC Re: seasons go round VLJC ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Why meeeeeeeee? WHY NOT ME!!! [AzeemAK@aol.com] RE: Scheer lied about $43 million (njc) ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Happy Birthday Heather! NJC ["Mark or Travis" ] RE: heather!!!! (NJC) ["patrick leader" ] Re: heather!!!! (NJC) ["J. R. Mills" ] "Refuge of the Roads" question, 100% JC ["jlamadoo, home account" ] Re: marian russell!!!! njc ["Kakki" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 20:34:07 -0400 From: Brian Gross Subject: Re: Why meeeeeeeee? WHY NOT ME!!! May I humbly suggest you take a trip to the smoe.org archives and read some of the shite that a certain lister (ahem) posted from his mother's email account some months ago? I think you owe Bree an apology, IMHO Brei Nuriel Tobias wrote: > > Why do i have to read this sick email on the joni mitchell list?! np: NPR - -- After twenty-three years you'd think I could find A way to let you know somehow That I want to see your smiling face Forty-five years from now. --Stan Rogers ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 17:29:04 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Why meeeeeeeee? WHY NOT ME!!! Thank you Brian. > May I humbly suggest you take a trip to the smoe.org archives and read > some of the shite that a certain lister (ahem) posted from his mother's > email account some months ago? > > I think you owe Bree an apology, IMHO > > Brei > > Nuriel Tobias wrote: > > > > Why do i have to read this sick email on the joni mitchell list?! > > np: NPR > > -- > After twenty-three years you'd think I could find > A way to let you know somehow > That I want to see your smiling face > Forty-five years from now. > > --Stan Rogers ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 20:51:49 EDT From: PMcfad@aol.com Subject: Re: An American Voice - NJC this post was hard for me to read and accept. i see many of your points. i've labored for hours to try and understand why the terrorists did what they did. i've wondered what their interests were and their desired results. nonetheless, i can't agree with your conclusions that they were baiting the usa into action. and i don't see the usa going into action haphazardly. i don't think the goal of the us government is to send bombs indiscriminately to afghanistan to kill civilians. and i give the majority of american people more credit than that. lastly, i guess it is impossible for me to hold a paradigm that gives so much credit to terrorists. i beleive the usa will be successful in protecting it's cities and preventing future attacks from happening. i just believe that will be the case. maybe not tomorrow. but in the long run, our cities will be safe. and anyone who goes off to prove otherwise will live a short life. as the suicide bombers did. to me, they proved nothing except that if you are willing to die, it's easy to take people with you. that has been their only success in my vision. i don't think their plans were any greater than showing the world that they can penetrate the sanctity of the usa. i don't know. i'll continue to think about your post. i'm hoping you thoughts give more credit to the terrorists than they deserve. and i also hope you underestimate the people of the usa and you are trying to be more clever than you really are. i guess i don't like the phrase you use...anyone with half a brain... i really think the response of the usa right now is much more clear than you give it credit. people entered our country, stole our planes, smashed our buildings, and killed our citizens. and the usa will not live with that. period. that's the only take i can get on things here. pat In a message dated 9/19/2001 9:09:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, shells@seashells.net.au writes: > isn't it obvious that something of this size > wasn't only pulled off to show it could be done - as much as it looks like > it at first. Anyone with half a brain can see that America getting into gear > like it's doing now was the planned, foreseen and INTENDED result. And why > all this? Terrorists like bin Laden & Co have been working hard for years > and years trying to get any subversive grouping of any description anywhere > under one hat - not very successfully. Nonetheless they've been hard at > work, trying to convince with (dirty tricks and lots of blood), both Eastern > and Western governments that it's a case of "Us" against "Them" - preferably > with all the Western countries on the other side. Drawing lines on the map > is what they want. With America going to war against anyone aiding bin Laden > & Co, Thousands will flock to the terrorists' cause, that's inevitable... > "Muslim" countries will react predictably ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 01:51:04 +0100 From: Subject: Re: Why meeeeeeeee? WHY NOT ME!!! Something to do with bombers turning into butterflies I suspect. Philip > May I humbly suggest you take a trip to the smoe.org archives and read > some of the shite that a certain lister (ahem) posted from his mother's > email account some months ago? > > I think you owe Bree an apology, IMHO > > Brei > > Nuriel Tobias wrote: > > > > Why do i have to read this sick email on the joni mitchell list?! > > np: NPR > > -- > After twenty-three years you'd think I could find > A way to let you know somehow > That I want to see your smiling face > Forty-five years from now. > > --Stan Rogers ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 20:56:40 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: Why meeeeeeeee? WHY NOT ME!!! In a message dated 21/09/01 01:37:58 GMT Daylight Time, briangross@rocketmail.com writes: << May I humbly suggest you take a trip to the smoe.org archives and read some of the shite that a certain lister (ahem) posted from his mother's email account some months ago? I think you owe Bree an apology, IMHO >> I have no idea what you mean by this, Brian; but for the record, and for what it's worth, I have to agree with Nuriel, I found Bree's post pretty repellent. Azeem ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 17:41:36 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Subject: Re: NJC Re: seasons go round VLJC Well I don't have advice but I do have another side. My son who is 22 never left! Well, he left briefly, but has returned. I am learning that this is not so good, that he does need to get out there & do it on his own. So we are in the midst of making this happen with as little heart ache as possible... ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 17:48:12 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Why meeeeeeeee? WHY NOT ME!!! Azeem, I don't think this is a debate over Bree's post. Go read the archives suggested by Brian. The content cannot be repeated here. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 21:09:56 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: Why meeeeeeeee? WHY NOT ME!!! It isn't a debate about anything as far as I'm concerned, Kakki. I expressed ignorance at what Brian's post was getting at, and stated that I agreed with Nuriel's distaste at Bree's post. Azeem ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 17:51:41 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: Scheer lied about $43 million (njc) LOL, speaking of righting irresponsibly i meant WRITE.. "geesh, thanks kakki, if this is true than it really sucks that scheer would right so irresponsibly.." ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 18:11:48 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Subject: Re: Kakki/Kate Debate: Partisanship and Foreign Policy NJC and very long Hi, I suppose I am the one that started this debate with the article I posted. BTW, I never felt this debate to be partisan at all. I feel really good about how the whole thing played out. I am very grateful to Kakki for posting the article that stated an opposing opinion to mine. I have since sent an email to Robert Scheer with the link Kakki sent me & asking him to explain himself. We will see if he does. ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 18:21:53 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Subject: Re: Partisanship and Foreign Policy NJC and very long Oh Kakki, I think you are being physically affected by this because you are such a sweet & loving person. Please take care of yourself & maybe get away from all this world stuff for awhile. ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 21:59:51 EDT From: Relayer211@aol.com Subject: Re: Support Muslim/Arab Americans NJC In a message dated 9/20/01 8:28:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TimandMaryPowers@aol.com writes: << llo, Like everyone else, I am disgusted by the violence against Muslim and Arab Americans. I have decided to do what I can about it. Which isn't much, but I have a few ideas: 1I'll buy from Muslims and Arabs whenever possible. I hear that stores and restaurants are being abandoned by people who normally wouldn't think twice about eating or shopping there. This is not right. 2) From Paula in San Fransisco (who is married to a Muslim) comes the following: If you have any friends or aquaintences or neighbors who are Arab or Muslim (or even South Asian, as they are getting it too), you may want to offer to take them to the grocery store with you or ask if they need any errands done (in case they are feeling too vulnerable to go outside right now). There is a window poster that is being circulated by Global Exchange right now that gives out the right message against hate attacks: http://www.globalexchange.org/september11/hateFreeZone.html >> I couldn't agree more.I think the hate directed towards those of certain ethnic backgrounds here in the U.S. is DESPICABLE. I want to do what I can to show support. I will certainly eat at foreign restaurants more. prejudice is totally unacceptable, as far as I'm concerned. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 19:27:35 -0700 From: "Brenda J. Walker" Subject: Re: Partisanship and Foreign Policy NJC and very long Kakki, My comments were not aimed specifically at you, but I'm glad to discuss your responses. On 20 Sep 2001, at 17:13, Kakki wrote: > > Maybe because I'm older than a lot of the crowd here I have a different > perspective. I cannot recall a time ever in my life or historically since > WWII when America was isolationist. I'm not trying to argue with you but I > just can't see it. We've been involved in numerous wars or actions in other > countries almost constantly since that time. Being involved in wars and actions does not mean that our motivations do not stem from an isolationist viewpoint. In fact, there was isolationist leaning rhetoric in the presidential debates. Check out the Atlantic article that I referenced in my other email for a view on how most Americans have largely ignored foreign policy. We are no doubt also the most > diplomatic country on earth. By whose standard? I think that we have been weak on foreign policy for years. The last administration with a true understanding was probably Nixon. (And before I get flamed, no I am not condoning all of Nixon's foreign policy moves.) We've been the biggest supporter of the UN > since its inception. > We walked out on the Conference against Racism. The state of our payment of UN dues is questionable - some argue we owe more than $1 billion in unpaid dues. We lost our seat on the Human Rights Commission in May and then Congress voted to continue withholding dues until the seat was restored. There's a great essay in August issue of Harper's titled "The American Rome" which discusses this very issue. I implore you to read the following critique of our Human Rights policy which discusses our history generally (beginning with the signing of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights in 1948) and the Clinton administration in particular: http://fpif.org/briefs/vol4/v4n08hrts.html Here's another piece from 1996 on US-UN Relations which merits some attention, particularly our continued threat of withholding dues as a tactic to achieve reform: http://fpif.org/briefs/vol1/usun.html > In my view of reality, all we have done is tried to understand other people > in the world. I certainly won't claim we have done a good job of it, > however. > Can you elaborate on HOW we have tried to understand other people in the world? Our media hardly covers international news; most Americans would fail a basic world geography test, let alone a quiz of who various leaders are and the types of governments they run; and despite all of the pleas to the contrary, we've had more than 70 incidents of hate crime related to the terrorist attacks in Southern California alone. I think we haven't done a good job of it because we haven't really tried. I would bet that people in other nations know more about us than we do about them simply because of our dominance. > > And therein lies the supreme irony. Most hold disdain for us precisely > because of our involvement in their country or other countries. It's a > total Catch 22 - we are damned if we do and damned if we don't. I don't think it is simply an issue of BEING involved as it is HOW and WHY we are involved. We have gone into alot of situations and left a fairly large footprint, sometimes by choice and sometimes not. But can > anyone really chastise anyone for feeling a little weary sometimes about the > abuse that other countries so freely throw on us, especially at a time when > we are down? Am I suppose to apologize for being upset about that? I am a > human being, not some programmed robot with no feelings. Neither I, nor > most of my fellow Americans, nor the people who died in WTC are personally > responsible for the things other countries blame us for. Have we been abused? Criticized yes, but abused? I for one think we should openly criticize ourselves to seek how we can do better. I certainly don't discount anyone's right to feel upset by the criticism. BTW - I think blame is too simplistic a concept for the situation. > > >The response seemed to uniformly be that > > the terrorists hate us. I hope that there are more >sophisticated > discussions happening in schools. I think >alot of kids could understand > it, if it is explained to >them. > > What would you suggest we tell them as to the reasons why the terrorists > hate us? I agree that children should not be left with uninformed and > simplistic reasons, but practically how do you download to them in a way > they can understand, complicated socio-political events of the past 50 or so > years? It's hard for me to specifically comment on this because I don't know what textbooks today contain - which is why I would love to hear from any teachers on the list. However, I do not think it is complicated to explain the history of our relationships in the Middle East and the position of Afghanistan relative to Cold War politics. We should explain why we once funded Bin Laden and our role in the Taleban's ascension to control. It will certainly be complicated to explain why we've done some of the things we've done, but don't you think we must endeavour to do so in the context of world geography and history education? Particularly for the coming generation that will see it's members be sent off to fight? Personally, I think we need to make a cultural choice to be better educated as a nation. I've heard more than one adult say that we should bomb "them" -- illustrating their own ignorance with respect to even some of the most basic aspects of the matter. It's not as simple as bombing "them." Don't get me wrong; I am not a fed-hating curmudgeon. I am indeed grateful for our freedoms, particularly the one which allows me to criticize our government, in the interest of hoping that we can continue to do better. Brenda n.p.: Larry King Live ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 22:30:09 EDT From: RobSher50@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC Re: seasons go round VLJC Hi Suze (your old friend here), My daughter is twenty-three and I had to shut the door to her room for two weeks before I could get used to her not being around. My advice to you is to not be afraid to cry for that which is being left behind. After you have gotten it out of your system, start feeling hopeful for what is to come. It will be a completely different, but just as wonderful experience. The goal that we have as parents is to get our children to a place in life where they become self-sufficient and able to take care of themselves. Graduating from high school is just one of those steps we need to help our children take. My happiest moment was the day my daughter, April graduated from college, the first in our family to attain a four year degree. It was my happiest moment because I knew she had the tools of survival. I knew there were no guarantees, but at least she had a fighting chance. My second proudest moment was when she started her first day as a junior engineer for a technology company. So go ahead and cry on their graduation day, but also be proud of what you and your husband have helped them to accomplish. Hope this helps. Sherelle NP-In my head, The Circle Game (And the seasons, they go round and round and the painted pony goes up and down....) In a message dated 09/20/2001 5:36:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time, les@jmdl.com writes: > Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 11:57:33 -0400 > From: "Suze Cameron" > Subject: Re: NJC Re: seasons go round VLJC > > Hi Diane, > > I was thinking of how you were doing with this having spoken about it in > June. I get all teary-eyed thinking of when my girls go off on their own > two years from now. What will be hard is their graduation as my husband is > on the school board and hands out the diplomas and I am their advisor and > have to give a speech. Don't know how I will get through it without a big > boo-hoo (attemping Joni content). > > Advice from other listers? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 22:32:03 EDT From: RobSher50@aol.com Subject: Happy Birthday Heather! NJC Heather, Have a wonderful birthday. Celebrate life and hope. I will celebrate with you. Your old friend, Sherelle ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 19:23:55 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Partisanship and Foreign Policy NJC and very long Brenda, I think you are brilliant, truly. I cannot find anything at all to disagree with what you said. They reflect my own thoughts and opinions. I'm just not nearly so good as you as articulating them! Thank you - I think you are yet another beacon of light on this list. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 21:28:11 -0600 From: "shane mattison" Subject: send me an old glory, kakki (njc) canada - we've got 50 different terrorist operations in this country replacing moderate mosque leadership, gaining welfare (the terrorist found with flight maps just arrested in chicago came from 6 years in toronto on welfare!), the finance minister is guest speaker to the tamil tigers (who unleashed on them tax-free charitable status), they have gained many government grants (after all, this is the nice thing to do), and they obtain refugee status for their terrorist cousins with fake i.d.... meanwhile, i read the british defence minister's report to the House of Commons detailing all the extensive home defence preparations and contingency plans in britain... while cretien and the liberals deny there's a problem! and then you get journalists in canada and the u.k. who drivel and peddle an obsolete class war, still set in their snarky "the world owes me a living" and are hence jealous of their betters, so they muster up the courage to blame the wtc disaster on america, which as churchill pointed out - if it hadn't have been for american might these last several decades, these wormholists would have to have brought their whining to the politburo - and then see how much sympathy they'd get! kakki, you're so right...its so trying to hear this crapola...people who don't even have the decency to acknowledge, feel the sorrow, or respect the over six thousand innocent people who lost their lives and the six thousand more who are maimed... i don't want their whiny left-wing emails either! with canada deservedly left out of President Bush's thanks...it is a shameful time for canada.... others don't know how damn far down the tubes we've gone...talk about naieve! That's what those are who don't realize that all these people were brought into the country to destroy the anglo element of what after all used to be british north america and vote these self-servers continually into office! well, kakki, i'm going to ask you a favour - i want you to find me an interesting 'old glory' that flew somewhere interesting in the good ole u.s. of a., and i want you to send me this flag, (and i'll meet your expenses no questions asked) ...and then i'm going to fly it in my front yard... ...and if my dual citizenship inquiries don't pan out, i will be giving serious consideration to swearing allegiance to the constitution of the united states of america... shane ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 20:51:33 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Happy Birthday Heather! NJC > Heather, > Have a wonderful birthday. Celebrate life and hope. I will celebrate with you. > > Your old friend, > Sherelle Have a great birthday, Heather! Another old friend, Mark ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 00:38:04 -0400 From: "patrick leader" Subject: RE: heather!!!! (NJC) add my voice to the chorus!! i owe you a big fat phone call and would love to visit soon. patrick np - monica groop - bach cantatas >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of Wally >Kairuz >Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 12:30 PM >To: Bruyere; joni@smoe.org >Subject: heather!!!! (NJC) > > >happy birthday, heather! >wally ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 21:29:20 -0700 From: "J. R. Mills" Subject: Re: heather!!!! (NJC) Happy birthday, Heather!!! I wish you joy and happiness...and above all this, I wish you love... - -Julius p.s.--Thank you for always being on the ball, Birthday Fairy... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 00:55:43 -0400 From: "jlamadoo, home account" Subject: "Refuge of the Roads" question, 100% JC Hello Richard, Ah, yes, the 60 minute, out-of-print "Refuge Of The Roads" video. I don't know if it was ever available on Laser Disk but the VHS Hi-Fi is out-of-print. 14 songs performed by the rocking-est band she ever put together (with all the good and bad things that suggests). Edited by Norm Levy & Joni Mitchell. Mixed by Larry Hirsch, Joni Mitchell & Larry Klein. Directed by Joni Mitchell. My favorite version so far of "Chinese Cafe" (if you don't count JMDL powered versions). Humor. "Found" video from the mind of a wonderfully literate visual artist. Available for blanks and postage, as a stereo dub on USA style VHS from a factory-made VHS Hi-Fi issue. Write me off-list. Lama ps, Naturally, this offer will be withdrawn if we ever have an opportunity to purchase a DVD. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 03:23:57 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: marian russell!!!! njc happy birthday, marian!!!!! w and the bf ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 23:38:09 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: marian russell!!!! njc OMG - Marian and Heather so close together!! A very special day, indeed! Happy Birthday to both very sweet and talented women. Kakki > happy birthday, marian!!!!! > w and the bf ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2001 #425 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?