From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2001 #418 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Tuesday, September 18 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 418 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Today in Joni History: September 18 [les@jmdl.com] Today's Articles: September 18 [les@jmdl.com] RE: Subject: Indeed, something to think about [M.Russell@iaea.org] RE: "God Bless Him For A Great Song"NJC(Long) [M.Russell@iaea.org] Re: backlash towards muslims [dsk ] Re: backlash towards muslims [dsk ] some thoughts ... njc [FredNow@aol.com] Polly Jean [PMcfad@aol.com] afghanistan fact sheet (njc) ["shane mattison" ] RE: backlash towards muslims [M.Russell@iaea.org] Re: afghanistan fact sheet (njc) [] Re: some thoughts ... njc [AzeemAK@aol.com] RE: blame the jews part 3 ["Deb Messling" ] Fw: info ["shane mattison" ] Re: blame the Jews pt 3, NJC [Catherine McKay ] Joni and Buckley [ReckersL@ebrd.com] NJC Re: Something to smile about NJC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Billy Tipton njc [Jerry Notaro ] Images of support in the wake of NYC/DC ["Chris Marshall" ] Re: A lesson from the birds (NJC) ["Victor Johnson" ] NJC Re: Blame the Jews, now CNN reports ["Mike Pritchard" ] Re: The Clear Channel Radio response ... VLJC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Another perspective njc ["Kate Bennett" ] backlash towards muslims njc ["Kate Bennett" ] a grim reality (njc) ["shane mattison" ] Re: The Clear Channel Radio response ... NJC [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: Indeed, something to think about NJC [TimandMaryPowers@aol.com] Re: The Clear Channel Radio response ... NJC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: A lesson from the birds (NJC) [RobSher50@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 03:03:15 -0400 From: les@jmdl.com Subject: Today in Joni History: September 18 On September 18 in Joni Mitchell History: 1996: From today's AllStar website: "The much talked about Grace Of My Heart soundtrack, featuring '60s-era songwriters teaming with the cream of the crop of '90s musicians, was recalled by MCA Records allegedly because permission to use the Joni Mitchell-sung track, "Man From Mars," was not obtained in time for the release." More info: http://www.jmdl.com/articles/docs/960918rt.cfm - ------------------------ Search the "Today" database: http://www.jmdl.com/today ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 03:03:15 -0400 From: les@jmdl.com Subject: Today's Articles: September 18 On September 18 this article was published: 1996: "Grace Of My Heart Soundtrack Recalled" - AllStar Website (News Item) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/docs/960918as.cfm - ------------------------ The JMDL Article Database has 633 titles. http://www.jmdl.com/articles ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 09:06:21 +0200 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: RE: Subject: Indeed, something to think about On 18 September 2001 04:08, Kate Bennett [SMTP:kate@katebennett.com] wrote: > i have already gotten on with my life, i have smiled & laughed & cracked > jokes as often as i have cried lately... > but i will always grieve this tragedy...always... I feel like it is my obligation as a human being to always grieve this tragedy. Marian ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 09:10:54 +0200 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: RE: "God Bless Him For A Great Song"NJC(Long) On 18 September 2001 04:21, Scott and Jody [SMTP:johnsonjs@earthlink.net] wrote: > A friend of ours wrote this for the Chicago Sun-Times this past > Saturday. I'd like to pass it on. > Much Love, > jody and scott > God bless him for a great song >September 15, 2001 >bylnie:BY ANDREW HERRMANN SUN-TIMES COLUMNIST Thank you for sharing the history of this song, Jody. Marian ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 03:41:50 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: backlash towards muslims Catherine McKay wrote: > > ... If it was deliberate, and done > by someone as a backlash against this terrorist act, > then it would be typical of this kind of goon not to > even know the difference between a Hindu and a Muslim, > which would kind of prove my point - any excuse to be > a racist goon. If it was deliberate, I hope they nail > whoever did it big time. Me too! In recent years, there has been a public effort by Jewish and Christian leaders to heal the divide between the two groups. One example is the book of conversations between Eli Wiesel and Cardinal O'Connor. Americans know so little about the Islamic faith and see only the fundamentalists or Israel's enemies and think they're representative of all Muslims. That can't be, anymore than Jerry Falwell represents all Christians. Even though there will always be simple-minded thugs looking for any excuse to harm someone, it's easy now for lots of people to see all Muslims as the enemy when there's so little information available about their beliefs. I hope efforts are made soon to educate us all. I keep these examples in mind: Richard Thompson is a devout Muslim; another devout Muslim is Rumi, a Sufi mystic from the 1200s. This is how he expresses his faith: Be certain in the religion of Love there are no believers or unbelievers. Love embraces all. Debra Shea P.S. While I chatted with my friend Azeem tonight, the tv was on and it was good to see and hear in the background the New York Mets once again doing their job, and tonight playing the Pittsburgh Pirates. Yeah, sounded good. The Mets won. Tonight that doesn't matter much. I was just glad to see them again. Here's something else Rumi wrote: It's good to leave each day behind, like flowing water, free of sadness. Yesterday is gone and its tale told. Today new seeds are growing. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 03:47:28 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: backlash towards muslims Oh, joni-onlys, darn, I didn't check the subject line. So sorry for the lack of NJC on this. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 03:55:16 EDT From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: some thoughts ... njc Last Friday some neighbors coaxed my wife and daughter out for the candlelighting thing (I was at a gig) and one asked my wife why we didn't have a U.S. flag on our house. When told that we didn't own a flag, she wanted to give us one but my wife said "no, thanks," for which I am glad. On hearing this (and at many other moments in the last week), I was reminded of that great "Seinfeld" episode in which Kramer wants to participate in the AIDS walk but doesn't want to wear a ribbon; he's soon surrounded by an angry mob ready to dismantle him, and they call out to the walk leader that Kramer won't wear a ribbon ... the leader spins on his heels and spits out: "Who?! Who won't wear the ribbon?!" I've never liked the song "God Bless America," although I love many of Irving Berlin's songs like "What'll I Do" and "Let's Face the Music and Dance." If there is a God, I want God to bless all of humanity, not America. I don't believe in nations and flags, I believe in humanity ... one world is enough for all of us. And just because I won't wear the ribbon doesn't mean I don't grieve just as much for this travesty against humanity as those who do; however, I grieve equally for the hundreds of thousands of innocent Afghanis (and probably Iraqis, too, because, let's face it: as long as we're killing indiscriminately, why not finish the job Daddy started?) who will likely die soon by our terrible swift sword. We've learned absolutely nothing from this tragedy. - -Fred Simon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 04:35:40 EDT From: PMcfad@aol.com Subject: Polly Jean i've been carrying this new yorker around in my brief case since august. there was a decent article on pj that contained this: harvey broke free of convention. her songs are short stories, not confessions and her own identity has little to do with the different voices she chooses to embody. whereas janis joplin's blues were janis joplin's blues. harvey isn't interested in self revelation. she doesn't prettify the blues as bonnie raitt sometimes does; nor does she judge it an outdated form that needs jazzing up as Joni Mitchell did on "Mingus". thought it was an interesting statement. i bought the mag for the lead article on radiohead which was pretty good but had nothing new in it. radiohead was on the cover of rolling stone a few months ago and in that article, thom yorke said something like this: people want us to record something like "the bends" again...well, they don't ask artists to paint the same picture again. that sounds familiar. pat np. planet telex - everything is broken - why can't you feel good. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 02:58:16 -0600 From: "shane mattison" Subject: afghanistan fact sheet (njc) Before this crisis, i had received church reports on the plight of the red cross workers who were slated to be executed by the taliban oligarchy. They were accused of 'christian proselitization' because they had some bibles and church literature in their possession (hardly a shocker for a few red cross workers, far from their homes). In all of the reports of the t.v. news since tuesdays' terrorist attack, the plight of these specific red cross workers (apart from those who left the country) was not even mentioned. The taliban are the chief crooks (and not even native afghanis) in a country that exports more heroin than any place on earth and is full of the most land mines on the planet. They have nothing to with the obviously magnificent heritage of islamic culture which built the taj mahal. Therefore i hope too that the poor afghanis who suffered the soviet invasion and now the taliban will not be hurt by the U.S. I am hoping for special forces to take out bin laden and if the taliban can be overthrown, well tough beans for them... For a bare bones fact sheet on afghanistan: http://www.graphicmaps.com/webimage/countrys/asia/afcia.htm shane ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 11:12:20 +0200 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: RE: backlash towards muslims On 18 September 2001 09:42, dsk [SMTP:dsk11@bellatlantic.net] wrote: > Here's something else Rumi wrote: > > It's good to leave each day behind, > like flowing water, free of sadness. > Yesterday is gone and its tale told. > Today new seeds are growing. Thank you for posting that Debra. It's something I probably need to think about. I am printing it out to hang on my wall at work. Marian ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 11:01:43 +0100 From: Subject: Re: afghanistan fact sheet (njc) Hi Shane, Interesting fact sheet. Robert Fisk has a good article in today's London Independent about the extreme difficulties facing the US military if they have to go into Afghanistan. http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia_china/story.jsp?story=94638 Philip ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 06:05:32 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: some thoughts ... njc In a message dated 18/09/01 08:56:23 GMT Daylight Time, FredNow@aol.com writes: << I've never liked the song "God Bless America," although I love many of Irving Berlin's songs like "What'll I Do" and "Let's Face the Music and Dance." If there is a God, I want God to bless all of humanity, not America. I don't believe in nations and flags, I believe in humanity ... one world is enough for all of us. >> Although it's rather brutally and reductively put, I still value Samuel Johnson's pithy comment: "patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel". << I was reminded of that great "Seinfeld" episode in which Kramer wants to participate in the AIDS walk but doesn't want to wear a ribbon; he's soon surrounded by an angry mob ready to dismantle him, and they call out to the walk leader that Kramer won't wear a ribbon ... the leader spins on his heels and spits out: "Who?! Who won't wear the ribbon?!" >> Haha! I can picture the scene now! Would you believe that the final series of Seinfeld has only just started being shown on terrestrial TV over here?? Last night's was an absolute corker (the one with George and the disabled toilet). If it really was "a show about nothing", gimme me more of that nothin' thang! Azeem in London NP: The radio, a cover of Bill Withers's Use Me. Anyone know what the great man's up to these days? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 06:14:19 -0400 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: RE: blame the jews part 3 > The point is that these people were NOT celebrating that thousands of > Americans were blown up. These images, I believe, were filmed in 1991, 10 > years before the WTC/Pentagon bombs. Did I not say this? Please, let's stop spreading this one! It's just one more Internet rumor that has been debunked. This one is so pernicious, since it fans the flames of hatred against the West. Here's detail on the debunking: http://www.snopes2.com/inboxer/outrage/cnn.htm - ----------------------------------- Deb Messling =^..^= - ----------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 04:46:08 -0600 From: "shane mattison" Subject: Fw: info thanx phillip...i'll be using this paper thanks to you...have you tried stratfor? http://www.stratfor.com/ shane - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "shane mattison" ; Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 4:01 AM Subject: Re: afghanistan fact sheet (njc) > > Hi Shane, > Interesting fact sheet. Robert Fisk has a good article in today's London > Independent about the extreme difficulties facing > the US military if they have to go into Afghanistan. > > http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia_china/story.jsp?story=94638 > > Philip ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 06:53:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: blame the Jews pt 3, NJC - --- Mike Pritchard wrote: > > [...] CNN, the > channel that has been trying to discredit the > Palestinians by using images of > Arab children celebrating the destruction of the > twin towers? The only problem > is that the images were filmed in 1991. Perhaps > Laurent should be complaining > about anti-Muslim propaganda. Is this manipulation > acceptable, and if not why > is nobody complaining? Mike, is this true? If so, I'm really not surprised. It reeked of jingoism to me and didn't ring true at all. Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 12:45:43 +0100 From: ReckersL@ebrd.com Subject: Joni and Buckley I seem to be moving fast from a lurker to a chatter. Oh, if only I had the time! But just reading through some recent digests, I felt I had to post this. People were asking about Jeff Buckley, and several ones mentioned being fans of Tim, his father. Now one of the reasons why I lurked for so long on JMDL without contributing, as I said was lack of time, especially as I am already on a Tim Buckley discussion list (called Starsailor) and I wanted to stay loyal to that commitment. Anyway, I feel I have to share this info with you. (If you are a JM purist, jump straight to point 5, which talks about Joni!) 1) Yes, Jeff Buckley's 1994 album Grace is wonderful, sublime. Since his tragic death in 1997 his popularity has continued to rise, also in Europe where there is quite a Jeff Buckley cult. (It does help that he was also a very very pretty boy...) There are several good Jeff Buckley internet sites to check out. 2) His father Tim released 9 or so albums in about the same number of years before he died at the age of 28 in 1974. His output is amazing, and developed from folk to jazzy experimental and funk. There are again some very good web sites, let me just mention http://www.geocities.com/jzero2149/TimBuckleyandFriendsindex.html. I have no time to look up the others but if you're interested, have a look, it's quite easy, e.g. the Tim Buckley Archives. 3) There is a recent biography of both Jeff and Tim Buckley, called Dream Brother by David Browne, it is still quite easily available. 4) There will be a Tim Buckley tribute concert in the Royal Festival Hall in London on Wednesday 26 September. Anybody who wants to make it should still be able to get tickets. Maybe see you there? 5) And finally, a connection with Joni! I realised myself that there were many similarities between Joni and Tim Buckley (their high output, their strong independence and personal style, their musical evolution from folk to jazz influences, their use of the voice as an instrument...) and when I mentioned this on the Starsailor list, I was told there was actually a section called Blue ... Blue Afternoon (http://www.geocities.com/jzero2149/BlueBlueAfternoon.html) making exactly the same comparison on the Room 109 site (another site dedicated to Tim Buckley, named after one of his songs). So do check it out! Hey ho, it's back to work for me now! Lieve. ********************************************************************** EBRD SECURITY NOTICE This message has been Virus scanned ********************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 08:17:05 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: NJC Re: Something to smile about NJC <> Uh-oh! Last week I thought that the terrorist attacks marked the Armageddon. But now I think the above statement does! :~D Looking forward to your good news, Ashara... And further to Paul's statement, it's been said that grief is an individual thing and that's very true. Kate, don't be too offended, for I know that Paul in his way was being positive & helpful. And I agree whole-heartedly with the essence of his statement, even if some of his word choices were blunt and "Paulesque"! ;~) My Dad and his wife had planned a trip to Canada months ago. They were to have flown out this morning and returned next week. I talked to my Dad yesterday, and in spite of the fact that 2 of his 4 flights have already changed, and God knows what delays with security they'll encounter, they're determined to go. "Otherwise the bastards win", he tells me. I realize that not everyone would do the same thing, and that's cool. We all will return to normalcy on our own schedule. Bob NP: Stevie Wonder, "Blame It On The Sun" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 08:27:18 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Billy Tipton njc AzeemAK@aol.com wrote: > Anyone know about this extraordinary person? A minor but talented and well > regarded jazz musician, arranger and bandleader, when he died in 1989, aged > 74, he was discovered to be... a woman! > The E True Hollywood Story did a special on "him" in which his children and > wives were interviewed. A fascinating story. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:36:36 +0100 From: "Chris Marshall" Subject: Images of support in the wake of NYC/DC I deliberately left off the NJC tag for this post, since I thought the only-Joni folk would probably like to see this also. This site has some five pages of images from across the world in the aftermath of the tragedy in the USA. I thought it was rather moving (and heartening - there are pictures here from the middle-east also). http://manson.exodus.net/thankyou/ - --Chris ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 09:11:31 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Joni & Aging <> That's a great question, Gay! I don't want to steal all the titles, but the Joni songs that deal with aging would include: The Arrangement (reflecting on another's accomplishments, or lack thereof); The Circle Game (pretty obvious pick); Hejira, which touches on the cycle of life (The foreceps to the stone); Facelift, which deals with middle-aged relationships between lovers and between parent-child; Sweet Bird, the "Sweet Bird of Youth" laughs at our attempts to stop the aging process: Sweet bird you are Briefer than a falling star All these vain promises on beauty jars Somewhere with your wings on time You must be laughing Behind our eyes Calendars of our lives Circled with compromise Sweet bird of time and change You must be laughing Up on your feathers laughing Cherokee Louise, learning to deal with some of life's hard lessons; Great question, Gay! I hope this helps, and I also hope that others can step up & help out. If you haven't done so already, you can go to the lyrics database on JMDL.com and put in some key words and see what you come up with. Who knows, maybe we'll "post the paper" for you! :~) Bob NP: Earth, Wind & Fire, "That's The Way of The World" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 09:21:35 EDT From: RobSher50@aol.com Subject: A lesson from the birds (NJC) Hi all, This morning, I got up at a decent hour (I am unemployed at moment) and went out on my front porch to drink my morning cup of tea. The birds were singing and flying all around me, going about their daily business. They had no idea of the terrible things which had happened during the previous week. This helped me to put things into perspective a little bit. Until there is no sky, the birds will continue to fly, and sing, and search for their morning meal. Life will go on for them as it must for me. Without even trying, they taught me that life must go on. Sherelle ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 16:50:37 +0200 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: RE: info On 18 September 2001 12:46, shane mattison [SMTP:cactussong@home.com] wrote: > thanx phillip...i'll be using this paper thanks to you...have you tried > stratfor? > http://www.stratfor.com/ > > shane What an excellent site. Thanks for passing this on, shane. Marian Vienna ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 11:26:33 -0400 From: Brian Gross Subject: L'shana tovah (Happy New Year) I just want to wish everyone a happy new year (5762) especially in light of this past week's tragedies. Yes, life *does* go on for the living. And now for the obligatory Joni content: I can hardly wait for the Harbourfest Tribute event next month in Toronto. I just hope that USAir cooperates with my already-ticketed itinerary. Take good care, everyone Magsnbrei :-) - -- After twenty-three years you'd think I could find A way to let you know somehow That I want to see your smiling face Forty-five years from now. --Stan Rogers ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 11:25:31 -0400 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Re: A lesson from the birds (NJC) > This helped me to put things into perspective a little bit. Until there is no > sky, the birds will continue to fly, and sing, and search for their morning > meal. Life will go on for them as it must for me. Without even trying, they > taught me that life must go on. > > Sherelle Three Little Birds Don't worry, about a thing, Cause every little thing's gonna be alright. Don't worry about a thing, Cause every little thing's gonna be alright. Walked out this morning, Smiled with the rising sun. Three little birds, upon my doorstep, Singing sweet songs, of melodies pure and true, Singing this is my message to you. (c) 1977 Bob Marley Victor Johnson http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson "Velveteen rabbits and moonbeams, Come when you lay down your head. While you are sleeping, they kiss you and tell you, That you are the reason the sun lights the sky." Scarlet-V. Johnson ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 08:38:15 -0700 From: Leslie Mixon Subject: Raise the Candles High (NJC) >We are keeping this candle burning for all the people & their families who were in the planes, buildings and anywhere near the Pentagon or WTC on September 11th. May God be with them and help them through this terrible time. >> >> >>Keep The Candle Going >> >> I asked God for water, he gave me an ocean. >> I asked God for a flower, he gave me a garden. >> I asked God for a tree, he gave me a forest. >> I asked God for a friend, he gave me YOU. >> >> "There is not enough darkness in the world to put out the light of one candle." >> >> The Candle of Love, Hope and Friendship > Sincerely, Leslie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 18:49:27 +0200 From: "Mike Pritchard" Subject: NJC Re: Blame the Jews, now CNN reports Forgive the change of subject title but I feel the original title no longer serves for this thread. OK here's my summary of the situation. The CNN images 'purporting' to show Palestinian children 'celebrating' the attack on NYC/DC were shown on Spanish tv on the day of the attack. Almost immediately there were reports (here in Spain) that the clips were not related to the NYC/DC attacks and were in fact filmed in 1991 and the 'celebrations' were in fact in response to the invasion of Kuwait. I did not send this to the list (nor totally believe it) as I feared it could be a hoax. Over the past week I have heard and read the same thing in different media (one of which claimed that Indymedia Israel had stated that the CNN clips were from 1991, another from Brazil saying the same) and felt that there was enough doubt about the veracity of the clips to question it here. Perhaps, in retrospect, it would have been better to say 'alleged' manipulation, rather just 'manipulation'. If the CNN clips were genuinely filmed after the NYC/DC attacks and in response to the news of the attacks (and the jury is still out on this) I am obviously prepared to accept this and happy to apologise to all concerned. However... Assuming for the moment that the clips were manipulated and 10 years old (as I and others claimed they were) is it not curious for my statement to get a response such as the following? >whatever CNN's motives, and we have no idea what they are, could it be just reporting the >facts, and those clips were factual, could be it. Those people WERE CELEBRATING that >thousands of Americans had just been blown to bits. (emphasis in original; Mike) MY WHOLE POINT WAS THAT WE JUST DO NOT KNOW THIS FOR SURE. The writer continues: >Also, even if the images are old, the Palestinians are no friend to this country or to >Americans. I would agree that 'the Palestinians are no friend to this country or to Americans', only if the writer was talking about particular Palestinians rather than all Palestinians all over the world. What concerns me more is the expression 'even if the images are old'. 'Even if'. Is she saying that it doesn't matter that ten year-old images are being manipulated in order to cause 'racial', religious and ethnic hatred? I imagine this is not what she means, but it sure sounds like it. As Mags said (17 Sep) >we need to be very careful about believing/ buying into / reacting to the aforementioned >images which depict celebrations in the street which were supposedly in response to the >tragedies of last Tuesday. ... by this I mean that such images can easily be planted to suit the >needs of the media in further fanning the flames. Who knows when those celebrations really >took place and in what honour. I certainly do not know for sure when that footage was filmed but I feel it's important to mention the fact that many sources claim that the images are from 1991. If so, and it's a big 'if', then this is manipulation and should be exposed as such. The possible consequences are too important to ignore. Television influences the views of citizens; citizens influence the views of elected representatives. Elected representatives influence votes in the government. The Government gives the CIA a free hand in contracting mercenaries, criminals and even assassinating foreign leaders. If the images were manipulated (even in part), then the above sequence of events is based on criminally irresponsible, and potentially catastrophic, reporting. If the images were in fact taken from the aftermath of Tuesday's attacks then I am happy to acknowledge the fact, and sorry (although not amazed) that humanity can stoop so low as to revel in the death of so many individuals and the destruction of so many families. Mike in Barcelona. NPIMH - Lagan Love / Nada Brahma by Sheila Chandra. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 14:09:53 -0300 From: mintagli@ypf.com.ar Subject: Bush is walking into a trap - NJC http://argument.independent.co.uk/commentators/story.jsp?story=94254 Robert Fisk: Bush is walking into a trap 16 September 2001 Retaliation is a trap. In a world that was supposed to have learnt that the rule of law comes above revenge, President Bush appears to be heading for the very disaster that Osama bin Laden has laid down for him. Let us have no doubts about what happened in New York and Washington last week. It was a crime against humanity. We cannot understand America's need to retaliate unless we accept this bleak, awesome fact. But this crime was perpetrated ? it becomes ever clearer ? to provoke the United States into just the blind, arrogant punch that the US military is preparing. Mr bin Laden ? every day his culpability becomes more apparent ? has described to me how he wishes to overthrow the pro-American regime of the Middle East, starting with Saudi Arabia and moving on to Egypt, Jordan and the other Gulf states. In an Arab world sunk in corruption and dictatorships ? most of them supported by the West ? the only act that might bring Muslims to strike at their own leaders would be a brutal, indiscriminate assault by the United States. Mr bin Laden is unsophisticated in foreign affairs, but a close student of the art and horror of war. He knew how to fight the Russians who stayed on in Afghanistan, a Russian monster that revenged itself upon its ill-educated, courageous antagonists until, faced with war without end, the entire Soviet Union began to fall apart. The Chechens learnt this lesson. And the man responsible for so much of the bloodbath in Chechnya ? the career KGB man whose army is raping and murdering the insurgent Sunni Muslim population of Chechnya ? is now being signed up by Mr Bush for his "war against people''. Vladimir Putin must surely have a sense of humour to appreciate the cruel ironies that have now come to pass, though I doubt if he will let Mr Bush know what happens when you start a war of retaliation; your army ? like the Russian forces in Chechnya ? becomes locked into battle with an enemy that appears ever more ruthless, ever more evil. But the Americans need look no further than Ariel Sharon's futile war with the Palestinians to understand the folly of retaliation. In Lebanon, it was always the same. A Hizbollah guerrilla would kill an Israeli occupation soldier, and the Israelis would fire back in retaliation at a village in which a civilian would die. The Hizbollah would retaliate with a Katyusha missile attack over the Israeli border, and the Israelis would retaliate again with a bombardment of southern Lebanon. In the end, the Hizbollah ? the "centre of world terror'' according to Mr Sharon ? drove the Israelis out of Lebanon. In Israel/Palestine, it is the same story. An Israeli soldier shoots a Palestinian stone-thrower. The Palestinians retaliate by killing a settler. The Israelis then retaliate by sending a murder squad to kill a Palestinian gunman. The Palestinians retaliate by sending a suicide bomber into a pizzeria. The Israelis then retaliate by sending F-16s to bomb a Palestinian police station. Retaliation leads to retaliation and more retaliation. War without end. And while Mr Bush ? and perhaps Mr Blair ? prepare their forces, they explain so meretriciously that this is a war for "democracy and liberty'', that it is about men who are "attacking civilisation''. "America was targeted for attack,'' Mr Bush informed us on Friday, "because we are the brightest beacon for freedom and opportunity in the world.'' But this is not why America was attacked. If this was an Arab-Muslim apocalypse, then it is intimately associated with events in the Middle East and with America's stewardship of the area. Arabs, it might be added, would rather like some of that democracy and liberty and freedom that Mr Bush has been telling them about. Instead, they get a president who wins 98 per cent in the elections (Washington's friend, Mr Mubarak) or a Palestinian police force, trained by the CIA, that tortures and sometimes kills its people in prison. The Syrians would also like a little of that democracy. So would the Saudis. But their effete princes are all friends of America ? in many cases, educated at US universities. I will always remember how President Clinton announced that Saddam Hussein ? another of our grotesque inventions ? must be overthrown so that the people of Iraq could choose their own leaders. But if that happened, it would be the first time in Middle Eastern history that Arabs have been permitted to do so. No, it is "our'' democracy and "our'' liberty and freedom that Mr Bush and Mr Blair are talking about, our Western sanctuary that is under attack, not the vast place of terror and injustice that the Middle East has become. Let me illustrate what I mean. Nineteen years ago today, the greatest act of terrorism ? using Israel's own definition of that much misused word ? in modern Middle Eastern history began. Does anyone remember the anniversary in the West? How many readers of this article will remember it? I will take a tiny risk and say that no other British newspaper ? certainly no American newspaper ? will today recall the fact that on 16 September 1982, Israel's Phalangist militia allies started their three-day orgy of rape and knifing and murder in the Palestinian refugee camps of Sabra and Shatila that cost 1,800 lives. It followed an Israeli invasion of Lebanon ? designed to drive the PLO out of the country and given the green light by the then US Secretary of State, Alexander Haig ? which cost the lives of 17,500 Lebanese and Palestinians, almost all of them civilians. That's probably three times the death toll in the World Trade Centre. Yet I do not remember any vigils or memorial services or candle-lighting in America or the West for the innocent dead of Lebanon; I don't recall any stirring speeches about democracy or liberty. In fact, my memory is that the United States spent most of the bloody months of July and August 1982 calling for "restraint". No, Israel is not to blame for what happened last week. The culprits were Arabs, not Israelis. But America's failure to act with honour in the Middle East, its promiscuous sale of missiles to those who use them against civilians, its blithe disregard for the deaths of tens of thousands of Iraqi children under sanctions of which Washington is the principal supporter ? all these are intimately related to the society that produced the Arabs who plunged America into an apocalypse of fire last week. America's name is literally stamped on to the missiles fired by Israel into Palestinian buildings in Gaza and the West Bank. Only four weeks ago, I identified one of them as an AGM 114-D air-to-ground rocket made by Boeing and Lockheed-Martin at their factory in ? of all places ? Florida, the state where some of the suiciders trained to fly. It was fired from an Apache helicopter (made in America, of course) during the 1982 Israeli invasion of Lebanon, when hundreds of cluster bombs were dropped in civilian areas of Beruit by the Israelis in contravention of undertakings given to the United States. Most of the bombs had US Naval markings and America then suspended a shipment of fighter bombers to Israel ? for less than two months. The same type of missile ? this time an AGM 114-C made inGeorgia ? was fired by the Israelis into the back of an ambulance near the Lebanese village of Mansori, killing two women and four children. I collected the pieces of the missile, including its computer coding plate, flew to Georgia and presented them to the manufacturers at the Boeing factory. And what did the developer of the missile say to me when I showed him photographs of the children his missile had killed? "Whatever you do," he told me, "don't quote me as saying anything critical of the policies of Israel." I'm sure the father of those children, who was driving the ambulance, will have been appalled by last week's events, but I don't suppose, given the fate of his own wife ? one of the women killed ? that he was in a mood to send condolences to anyone. All these facts, of course, must be forgotten now. Every effort will be made in the coming days to switch off the "why'' question and concentrate on the who, what and how. CNN and most of the world's media have already obeyed this essential new war rule. I've already seen what happens when this rule is broken. When The Independent published my article on the connection between Middle Eastern injustice and the New York holocaust, the BBC's 24-hour news channel produced an American commentator who remarked that "Robert Fisk has won the prize for bad taste''. When I raised the same point on an Irish radio talk show, the other guest, a Harvard lawyer, denounced me as a bigot, a liar, a "dangerous man'' and ? of course ? potentially anti-Semitic. The Irish pulled the plug on him. No wonder we have to refer to the terrorists as "mindless''. For if we did not, we would have to explain what went on in those minds. But this attempt to censor the realities of the war that has already begun must not be permitted to continue. Look at the logic. Secretary of State Colin Powell was insisting on Friday that his message to the Taliban is simple: they have to take responsibility for sheltering Mr bin Laden. "You cannot separate your activities from the activities of the perpetrators,'' he warned. But the Americans absolutely refuse to associate their own response to their predicament with their activities in the Middle East. We are supposed to hold our tongues, even when Ariel Sharon ? a man whose name will always be associated with the massacre at Sabra and Shatila ? announces that Israel also wishes to join the battle against "world terror''. No wonder the Palestinians are fearful. In the past four days, 23 Palestinians have been killed in the West Bank and Gaza, an astonishing figure that would have been front-page news had America not been blitzed. If Israel signs up for the new conflict, then the Palestinians ? by fighting the Israelis ? will, by extension, become part of the "world terror'' against which Mr Bush is supposedly going to war. Not for nothing did Mr Sharon claim that Yasser Arafat had connections with Osama bin Laden. I repeat: what happened in New York was a crime against humanity. And that means policemen, arrests, justice, a whole new international court at The Hague if necessary. Not cruise missiles and "precision'' bombs and Muslim lives lost in revenge for Western lives. But the trap has been sprung. Mr Bush ? perhaps we, too ? are now walking into it. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 10:58:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: The Clear Channel Radio response ... VLJC Monday's "chatterbox" column on Slate cites a memo from Clear Channel Radio listing songs their stations should not play because they might seem offensive or insensitive to those most directly affected by the tragedy. Here's a link to the article: http://slate.msn.com/code/chatterbox/chatterbox.asp?Show=9/17/2001&idMessage=8314 Of couse, since Joni's not on their playlists to begin with ... none of her titles show up. But there are some, shall we say, mystifying inclusions. If you haven't seen it take a click on over. Don Rowe ===== Visit me anytime at http://www.mp3.com/donrowe __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 14:11:50 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: The Clear Channel Radio response ... VLJC <> Thanks for sharing that, Don...I could comment on just about every entry to the list, but I'll refrain! Can't believe Lennon's "Imagine" made it on the 'banned' list! And I had to laugh when I saw "All Rage Against The Machine songs", which should be a standard anyway! ;~) This list confirms just how totally fucking stupid the radio is today. If *I* was a DJ, I'd play ONLY songs from this list! Alison, glad to hear from you...time for you to get back behind the mic! Surprised that BYT didn't make it...'paved paradise, put up a parking lot'... And they CAN'T play "Stairway to Heaven"? OMG, that cuts their playlist by 10% right there! ;~) Bob NP: Jim White, "King of the Road" NPIMH: Talking Heads, "Life During Wartime", which didn't make the list...go figga! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 10:53:28 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Another perspective njc Heather, there is much historical info on file....as Alison of SLC says the internet knows all...do a search on google & decide for yourself which sources you feel are reliable...hooray for you needing to know...i too am learning...many of us are learning... "Does anyone know where one can get reliable information on these people (bin laden, the Taliban) which describes what they are all about. I am such a stickler about education. Yes .... I do not know much about these people .... call me ignorant, I don't care .... but I want to and need to know. Understanding is a beginning." ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 10:53:29 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: backlash towards muslims njc Azeem, I don't watch talk shows but I have run into a few people like this on another music list & they initially reacted with very violent words agains all Muslim people...It was awful & shocking to hear such thinking from people that I didn't expect to behave like this...I kept sending information I was learning about Islam, about the Taliban, about Afghanistan (as I was learning it myself) & got several supportive emails from people thanking me for speaking against the anger & ignorance...now the ones who were calling for revenge have fallen silent...my hope is that they initially reacted in anger but have now broadened their understanding..education takes a lot of work...& its so important right now to speak out against racism & revenge... "And I fear that this hope is forlorn. I have relations on my father's side (ie Muslims) living in the USA, and one of them has told me of local Muslim centres receiving death threats. Obviously I haven't heard any US talk shows, but I have been told that some of the views expressed have been of the "all Muslims are evil" and "guilt by association" variety. I know that this is not how most people think, but numerically the people who hold such narrow views add up to a big crowd." ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 12:28:26 -0600 From: "shane mattison" Subject: a grim reality (njc) part of a prepared 1998 statement of steven emerson before the Senate Judiciary Subcommittee on Terrorism, Technology, and Government Information: CSIS (Canada's 'CIA') indicates that as many as 50 such violence advocating organizations are operating in canada and have even secured refugee status, welfare payments, government grants and 'tax-free charity' benefits. Their support for Canada's ruling Liberal Party is extensive and effective. While Chretien remains in denial mode, American pressure will no doubt change the equation. I sincerely hope that innocent muslims having nothing to do with these 'jihadists' do not suffer greatly in an unjust manner as a result of present and future responses to this problem. while 'jihadists' "stick up washington", informed sources indicate emergency presidential powers may be the forthcoming result for dealing with this deadly grim reality. shane ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 14:27:42 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: The Clear Channel Radio response ... NJC In a message dated 9/18/01 1:59:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dgrowe227@yahoo.com writes: > Monday's "chatterbox" column on Slate cites a memo > from Clear Channel Radio listing songs their stations > should not play because they might seem offensive or > insensitive to those most directly affected by the > tragedy. > > Here's a link to the article: > > http://slate.msn.com/code/chatterbox/chatterbox.asp?Show=9/17/2001& > idMessage=8314 > > Clear Channel owns about half the radio stations in this here town, but I rarely listen to radio music anyway. My 8-year-old does listen to one FM station in particular, so ANY reason to keep AC/DC off that station is good news to me. But who's that Bob Dillon guy? Never heard of him. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 14:27:02 EDT From: TimandMaryPowers@aol.com Subject: Re: Indeed, something to think about NJC In a message dated Mon, 17 Sep 2001 9:57:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, IVPAUL42@aol.com writes: > Kate and everyone, > Grieving is appropriate for about as long as they are still digging out the > bodies, but soon you and I, we all, must snap out of it, raise the flags to > full-staff and get on with our lives. > If we let the terrorists affect us permanently; if we let them change the > way we live; if we let them thrust us into a deep wallow of misery and grief, > then we let them win. > I, for one, do not intend to let them win. I hope that the rest of you will > not continue to wallow for much longer. The sooner we return to our way of > life; the sooner we show that we cannot be driven down so easily, the better. > Soon it will be time to find something to smile about. Start getting ready. > > Paul I My first reaction to this is that it must be a joke. Surely nobody could be *already* saying that it's time to get over it! My second reaction is that my question has been answered. I wondered how long it would take before the first person said "snap out of it". I figured it would take a year, or more. Maybe some ill-advised person would say it after a month. It took one week plus a few hours. So this is how we honor the dead - by forgetting them as quickly as possible? In terms of letting terrorists win, I would think that the best way to let them win is to essentially agree with them that the lives they took had no meaning. That's what I think we're doing if we go on with our lives as if nothing happened. Mary ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 14:36:25 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: The Clear Channel Radio response ... NJC <> And how about that Jimmy Hendrix guy? ;~) On a serious note...why would they try and ban these tangential songs on the radio, when TV, newspapers, magazines etc. are going FULL BORE with the reality of it? I must be a humongo-idiot, cuz I don't get it. Bob NP: Stevie Wonder, "Higher Ground" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 14:39:18 EDT From: RobSher50@aol.com Subject: Re: A lesson from the birds (NJC) Wow Victor! This is awesome! I did not know these lyrics existed! Isn't it amazing how something as simple as a bird's song can give someone joy and hope? Sherelle In a message dated 09/18/2001 8:27:11 AM Pacific Daylight Time, waytoblu@mindspring.com writes: > Three Little Birds > > Don't worry, about a thing, > Cause every little thing's gonna be alright. > Don't worry about a thing, > Cause every little thing's gonna be alright. > > Walked out this morning, > Smiled with the rising sun. > Three little birds, upon my doorstep, > Singing sweet songs, of melodies pure and true, > Singing this is my message to you. > > (c) 1977 Bob Marley ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2001 #418 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?