From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2001 #414 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Monday, September 17 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 414 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Today in Joni History: September 17 [les@jmdl.com] RE: peoples parties (sjc) [M.Russell@iaea.org] Sunday in NYC (NJC) [dsk ] Re: NJC 1 answer to bigotry [colin ] Re: NJC 1 answer to bigotry [colin ] Re: crying njc [colin ] Re: NJC 1 answer to bigotry [colin ] Re: NJC 1 answer to bigotry ["Kakki" ] Re: NJC ["Kakki" ] Forward-dreaming (NJC) [M.Russell@iaea.org] Jeff Buckley / Nick Drake NJC ["Rob Ettridge" ] Re: Another perspective [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: desperately looking for... [RoseMJoy@aol.com] RE: Another perspective [M.Russell@iaea.org] Re: Jeff Buckley's music on VH1(NJC) [Jerry Notaro ] 1/11/99 Time Asia exclusive interview summoned by bin Laden NJC [RoseMJoy] Re: Another perspective NJC [IVPAUL42@aol.com] RE: Another perspective (NJC) [M.Russell@iaea.org] RE: backlash towards muslims [M.Russell@iaea.org] RE: Another perspective NJC [M.Russell@iaea.org] Tr: DED ["Laurent Olszer" ] Re: blame the Jews pt 3, NJC ["Laurent Olszer" ] RE: desperately looking for... [ReckersL@ebrd.com] debunking Nostrodamus ... NJC [Reuben3rd@aol.com] Re: Another perspective (NJC) [Jerry Notaro ] Re: NJC 1 answer to bigotry [Susan Guzzi ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 03:01:49 -0400 From: les@jmdl.com Subject: Today in Joni History: September 17 On September 17 in Joni Mitchell History: 1996: Today the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame announces that Joni will be one of the inductees at the 1997 ceremony. - ------------------------ Search the "Today" database: http://www.jmdl.com/today ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 09:03:29 +0200 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: RE: peoples parties (sjc) Dear shane, Thank you for your thoughtful post and for your words of love, kindness, forgiveness and peace. Marian On 15 September 2001 05:02, shane mattison [SMTP:cactussong@home.com] wrote: > oh... > i've had subscriber shiftings, from 'heavy volume' to mistaken 'joni only' > (for me that is), to now i hope 'joni digest...' > i could lurk...(or maybe i couldn't!) > what a broad, broad panoply of humanity here...feelings... > the difficulty of written emails only, in sensing where someone is coming from... > can't you just hear joni saying, at the isle of wight, or any innumerable places > (circa 1968-71 or thereabouts.)...please my friends, let's love one another... > let's start right here, right now... > loves' real...peace is real, > just believe it in your heart > and you'll find it... > > froggie plops into the pond... > Plop! > > shane ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 03:12:00 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Sunday in NYC (NJC) Tomorrow morning I'm supposed to go back to work. Last Friday I was told the office would open on Tuesday. Today I got a call from one of the managers telling me the office will open tomorrow and they were calling everyone to see who could come in. My regular hours are 8-4 Monday and Tuesday. The manager said I didn't have to get there until around 9. Gee, thanks. I don't want to go. I don't want to be on the subway during rush hour. Buses aren't going that far south and cabs still can't get below Canal Street, so the subway is the only option. I don't like being afraid like this and don't like that we're all supposed to be willing to be on the front line, show "them" how tough we are. I hate this. I told him I wasn't sure. I was mentally prepared to go in Tuesday. Wasn't sure about Monday, and he didn't push it, just said ok. This morning I went to mass at the church on the corner, the big one that's 150 years old with lots of yellow marble inside. Huge place and yet very warm at the same time. I used to spend a lot of time there, designing their bulletins and music programs (and getting paid decently for it when I, like many others here in NY, didn't have a job in the early 90s), helping with the baptisms, serving as a lector, singing for a while in the huge parish community choir and thereby getting some very cheap singing lessons in addition to the thrill of being among 100 or so people who, together, were making swirly otherworldly sounds... so I used to spend a lot of time there. And always with an awareness of the Church's imperfections, always. And always with an attempt to see what's good about such a community. Many times it wasn't easy or comfortable and it was far from soothing. I haven't been much in the last few years. The last time was at Eastertime and then I was edgy about it, got there late, didn't recognize many people anymore, didn't stay afterward to welcome the new Catholics. Today I went to the 11:00 a.m. mass, the Solemn Mass, which was never my favorite "style" of service; even on celebration days, it felt pompously serious, and annoying because of that. Seemed appropriate for today though. Probably close to 2,000 people can fit into that church and it was packed this morning. It felt right to be there, among so many stunned and saddened people, going through a ritual together, trying to transcend the misery of this week. I was way in the back. In the pew directly in front of me was a man and a woman, and the woman was holding a red-haired boy, maybe 6-8 months old, so that he could look over her shoulder. He stared at me relentlessly, in that way only babies can, just staring without any embarrassment. Staring staring staring. I looked away thinking he would too. Nope, that didn't work. Still staring. I smiled a little bit. Then he got shy and looked away and then looked back and stared some more. So I stared at him too and we started smiling at each other, which felt so good because I haven't done much of that since Tuesday, and then he smiled enough to show his four little top teeth, and then a big grin and sticking out his tongue like babies do, and, well, I didn't go that far in our playing but I was tempted. Next thing would have been giggling uncontrollably. Agents of healing sometimes come in the smallest and most unexpected packages. There's a time during every mass when two or three people from the congregation take the wine and wafers from the back of the church to the priest standing in front of the altar. Today eight firefighters from our local house took the offering up the aisle, and when returning to their seats people stood as they passed and started applauding. It was the strangest sound, so loud, like a huge wave, and it lasted a very very long time. There were no other sounds, no shouts, no talking, no moving around sounds, just waves of applause. As heartfelt a thank you as I've ever heard a crowd give. It's estimated now that 350 firefighters are known or presumed dead. That's more men lost than in the entire history of the fire department in this city. There's a memorial service being planned by our last two mayors, Mayor Koch and Mayor Dinkins. It's to be held next Sunday in Central Park and a million people are expected to be there. I plan to be one of them. People here have been unusually gentle with each other, speaking quietly, moving rather slowly, lots of people still red-eyed. Taking our time in the crowded little grocery store. Not being annoyed about much because, really, some things aren't very important any more, not for now anyway. Little things are shared. At the record store yesterday I was looking for a cd someone had recommended and was in the way of the guy looking through the Jimi Hendrix cds. He finally softly said "take your time"; I told him what I was trying to find and we looked together. So, tomorrow is another work day here in this big, bold, beaten up and still beautiful city. Please, wish me luck. It's not a place to take anything for granted anymore. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 08:36:28 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: NJC 1 answer to bigotry > generally > > conservative beliefs as regards freedoms, womens rights, gay people > etc. These > > are views commonly held by conservatives, are the views we here > conservatives > As you stated, Mark, of course I was not painting Kakki as anything. I am also well aware that not all conservatives or Xtians are narrow minded and bigoted. My last sentence also stated that I am well aware that many on the far left hold the same views. It cannot be denied however that such views regarding women rights, gay rights, people of colour are common amongst conservatives. they certainly are in this country and from i see of your news programs and tv, they are in yours. I am aware enough to undertsand that this does not mean EVERYONE just as I am aware enough to know that not EVERYONE in the muslim world is a Terrorist or supporrter of such things. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 08:46:53 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: NJC 1 answer to bigotry Catherine McKay wrote: > Calling that type "conservative" is, um, a bit of an > understatement, don't you think"? A conservative is > someone who wishes to "conserve" - to keep things as > they are. the english language is indeed difficult to read sometimes. I called no one a conservative. Nor did I say that all conservatives held the same views. Nor did I say that Bin Laden and conservatives were one and the same. Nor am I mistaken in thinking that anti women, anti gay and anit non white views are usally spoken by people who identify themselves or are indetified by the media as conservatives. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 08:51:29 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: crying njc > It's people that did this - evil people, > but merely people, apparently of their own free will. Tha is how I see catherine. God's Will is often givien as a reason by unthiniking people who don't want to face the obvious. I don't believe it is God's will that any of us suffer. however, I feel we suffer thru our own deeds and thoughts. Mainly thru the latter. > > Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca - -- bw colin DAK,BRO GC, 950i 940,860,864, 260, 890,Silver 830 and 270, Passap 6000 Duo80 colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 08:57:39 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: NJC 1 answer to bigotry > Just when I am feeling pretty misunderstood around > here sometimes, I find that there are people (like you) who do seem to know > me for what I am. I really object to the implication that I was casting any aspersions(or whatever that damned word is) on Kakki or anyone else. I have no reason to dislike Kakki nor her 'politics' which i know little about anyway. If I was going to attack anyone I would do it obviously. No wonder there is so much trouble around when people place meaning on things that was not intened. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 00:41:17 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: NJC 1 answer to bigotry Colin, I was not thinking of you in my remarks. Kakki > I really object to the implication that I was casting any >aspersions(or whatever that damned word is) on Kakki >or anyone else. I have no reason to dislike Kakki > nor her 'politics' which i know little about anyway. > If I was going to attack anyone I would do it obviously. No wonder there is so much trouble around when people place meaning on things that was not intened. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 01:09:58 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: NJC Colin, My grandfather was at one point the Police Chief of a city in Pennsylvania. For years the KKK had a stronghold in the town (even that far north) and routinely terrorized people and set up their bonfires on the banks of the local river. Soon after my grandfather was appointed he took a few of his men and walked over to the river one night where a large mass of them had gathered and were threatening all kinds of violence. Without firing one shot or touching one person, my grandfather talked to them in such a way that they immediately disbanded and never came back to the town again. He later, through his own hard work, became the owner of several small markets. During the Depression he constantly gave food away to anyone who asked and never took any payment back. When he was older he was appointed a municipal Judge. He was known as the most compassionate and understanding justice they town had ever seen and rarely, if ever, would have people jailed for their crimes. My grandfather was a Conservative. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 11:19:38 +0200 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: Forward-dreaming (NJC) I'm so glad that our members are okay and I have really appreciated the posts from patrick, Debra, and Kay. Somehow it seems important to stay in touch with the feelings of those most affected and their communications have helped more in that regard than most of the stories in the news. I still feel very sad/depressed - can't get a good night's sleep - woke up this morning at 3:15 feeling worried about the future. I feel like I now understand how my mother could worry about nuclear war and the future of her children. I feel helpless and vulnerable and I don't even live in NY or DC or the USA for that matter, but if it can happen there, it can happen anywhere. Many Europeans are as deeply shaken and saddened. On Thursday last week, an Austrian colleague brought me a lovely long-stemmed red rose and expressed her sympathy. I was very touched by her gesture. When I see people of other nationalities mourning or expressing their sorrow and sympathy, I feel very moved. Last Tuesday, the Austrian Chancellor immediately raised the black flag of mourning in front of the Austrian Parliament building, and Austria observed one minute of silence at 11 a.m. last Wednesday, and the three minutes of silence at 11 a.m. on Friday. At the Vienna International Centre where I work, the staff observed one minute of silence in front of the Japanese Peace Bell in our outdoor plaza at 3 p.m. last Thursday. Three of my USA friends were with me and we all cried together after the ceremony. We all feel haunted by the images we have been seeing in the news. One of the friends, Mike, forwarded a message to me this morning from another friend of his named Terry. Her message seems very forward-thinking and hopeful, and contains totally different ideas about how to "win the war against terrorism" than I have ever seen. In the hopes that maybe somebody in JMDL is in a position to get something like this started, I am passing it on. My love and prayers are with everyone. Marian + + + + + + + Message from Mike: Like so many people, I am at a loss for words regarding events of the last few days. A friend of mine, Terry, sent me an email that expressed the reactions of many Americans I know. It is very human and and natural to wish for retribution. There will be military retribution by the US government and there really isn't any other choice. But maybe we can spend some time focusing on a "Retribution of Love" as well. I don't believe in national or regional politics. I believe in personal politics. I believe that God made us to love and help one other. I believe in the politics of love and forgiveness. Terry expresses this much more eloquently than I can hope to do and I forward her thoughts to you. Mike + + + + + + + Message from Terry: Friday was a national day of mourning, but by then I felt like I'd done nothing but since Tuesday mourning. So I dedicated my Friday to healing, and as Author Ivan Doig called it, 'dreaming forward.' I deeply hope the voices of reason and justice prevail over cries for vengeance. If our leaders guide themselves not by missiles but by the children we have a chance. In my forward-dream, we use for life the whole $40 billion Congress handed Bush. The war-designated $20 billion goes to 'infiltrate' societies that have suffered too deeply for too long. We overwhelm them with literacy programs, health care, microcredit, infrastructure building, de-mining. We inspire the international community and together create a barrage of investments in people and innovative, sustainable businesses the likes of which the world has never known. Political and diplomatic pressure becomes part of a ground swell that crashes through cultural and racial barriers. We set up covert anti-terror operations by creating life-infused cells rather than creating new hate cells for Bin Laden and the forces of disintegration. In short order, criminals no longer are able sit in places of power because their own people -- women and men -- ferret them out. Their hiding places for hate are exposed to the earthlight of food, homes, hope, medicines, and dignity. I know it has been hoped for and dreamed of in the past. But this is a time of turning. This is the moment we write the story for the next several generations to come. As Paul Hawken asks, What will our story be? At a time when words fail we often look to those written in saner moments. An old song by Kris Kristofferson, poet extraordinaire, keeps going through my head. We used to sing it to our kids. It pushed up from memory like a plant seeking sun. I don't know its name, so I'll just call it THE QUESTION Deep in the heart of the infinite darkness, A tiny blue marble goes whirling through space. Born in the splendor of God's* holy vision Sliding along like a tear down his* face. Look closer you'll see the whole wide holy wonder, Mountains and rivers, oceans and trees. And the strangest creation of many, a human A creature of laughter, wisdom and dreams. But the warriors are waving their old rusty sabers, Preachers are preaching their gospel of hate. By their behavior determined to teach us A lesson we're soon to be learning too late. Look closer my brother, we're killing each other, We've got to stop and get started today. Because Life is the question and Life is the answer God is the reason, Love is the way. Life is the question and Life is the answer God is the reason, Love is the way. (*Freely substitute with language that is comfortable for you) + + + + + + + + ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 04:22:18 -0500 From: "Rob Ettridge" Subject: Jeff Buckley / Nick Drake NJC I'm on the digest and I'm sure this has probably been answered by now, but the VW ad is Nick Drake's Pink Moon. As many here will tell you, his albums (and Jeff Buckley's) are essential listening. Rob Sherelle wrote: >> I did not know that Jeff Buckley was deceased. My apologies. There was >> another singer who died at an early age who sang a hauntingly beautiful song >> about the moon. I heard the song while watching a Volkswagen commercial >> and it was discussed that the song was one about suicide instead of a >> beautiful night (What Volkswagen was putting across to the consumer) >> Would this be the same person? I seem to hear that same haunting beauty. _____________________________________________ Free email with personality! Over 200 domains! http://www.MyOwnEmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 12:31:38 +0100 From: ReckersL@ebrd.com Subject: desperately looking for... Yes, desperately looking for a JMDL digest-er with a kind heart and a bit of time. I'll explain in a minute, but first of all I should probably introduce myself again. I am an big Joni Mitchell fan based in London. I bought my first Joni album as a schoolgirl when I still lived in Belgium in 1970, but I really re-discovered her music in much more depth in the last year and am now spreading the word (ok, her music) with a missionary zeal as much as I can by making tapes or lending CDs to friends. I posted to the list once before in June, but probably still qualify as a lurker. I've been reading the digests for months and have got so much positive information out of it, and also I felt quite close to some of you through your postings, especially the latest Jonifest postings. The only reason for my passive lurkdom is simple lack of time. I only have a PC at work, so my access is limited in time, and all I can do is read the digests, so however tempting it sometimes is to "jump in", usually I don't. Now my access has been even more limited by our IT department, and that is the reason for my plea for help. They've installed this program which checks all external e-mails for certain "profane or unprofessional" words, supposedly to stop us being bothered by unwelcome soliciting. But the result is that out of the latest 40 or so digests, I've only received 3, the rest have been banned! You can imagine how bereft I feel! So I was hoping to find somebody who is also on the digest list, who could forward to me those digests that I don't receive (I get a system message each time a message is blocked, so I know there was one!). This person would need to first delete (or abbreviate, so I still know what's being said) any words that may have offended my Big Brother system. So yes, I'm in fact asking if someone could censor those messages for me! A very sad situation, but I don't know what else to do! I would be extremely grateful and will of course try to return the favour (copying some music or getting hold of books that may only be available in the UK, for instance) as much as I can! I'd love to hear from you and in any case, my very best regards to all of you, you're such a great bunch and I hope I can stay in touch, maybe even be less of a lurker and, time permitting, be more of a contributor one day! Lieve. ********************************************************************** EBRD SECURITY NOTICE This message has been Virus scanned ********************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 07:46:46 -0400 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Re: Volkswagon/Pink Moon(NJC) . There was > another singer who died at an early age who sang a hauntingly beautiful song > about the moon. I heard the song while watching a Volkswagen commercial and > it was discussed that the song was one about suicide instead of a beautiful > night (What Volkswagen was putting across to the consumer) Would this be the > same person? I seem to hear that same haunting beauty. > That would be Nick Drake, who died at the age of 26 in 1974. I would recommend all of his material, Five Leaves Left, Bryter Lyter, Pink Moon, and Time of No Reply. Victor Victor Johnson http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson "Velveteen rabbits and moonbeams, Come when you lay down your head. While you are sleeping, they kiss you and tell you, That you are the reason the sun lights the sky." Scarlet-V. Johnson ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 07:52:59 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: Another perspective In a message dated 17/09/01 02:44:51 GMT Daylight Time, Ricw1217@aol.com writes: << god help me, sending incendiary political fodder to this tinder box of a list, but i found the perspective in this article quite compelling and important. i've never done it before and i seriously question the wisdom of doing it now, >> I too thought it was a compelling article. I think it's really important that as many people as possible take on board that the Taliban are not synonymous with Afghans in general, and that there are good reasons why they got to power and have stayed there. I believe very strongly that bombing Afghanistan would do no good at all, and this article adds to that belief. I only hope that those who really need to get the message do so. Azeem ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 07:55:12 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: desperately looking for... You can access all of the missing digests from the JMDL site, they are archived offsite at smoe.org. Just go to www.jmdl.com (the homepage) then click on archives/threads from the left hand side index under the Members Section. Hope this helps. Rose in NJ rosemjoy@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 14:08:27 +0200 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: RE: Another perspective On 17 September 2001 13:53, AzeemAK@aol.com [SMTP:AzeemAK@aol.com] wrote: > In a message dated 17/09/01 02:44:51 GMT Daylight Time, Ricw1217@aol.com > writes: > I believe very strongly that bombing Afghanistan would do no good at all, and > this article adds to that belief. I only hope that those who really need to > get the message do so. > Azeem It was indeed a very interesting article. On the news this morning, there was a story about the Northern Afghanistan resistance leader who was assassinated shortly before the WTC bombings. He was a very charismatic leader who wanted to overthrow the Taliban government. The story showed pictures of his supporters people mourning his death during the funeral service. It seems this Northern Afghanistan Alliance is prepared to offer 15,000 soliders towards any military action against the Taliban. I'm pretty sure the US government is aware of this. Marian Vienna ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 08:12:49 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Jeff Buckley's music on VH1(NJC) Sherelle, I have been a long time fan of Jeff Buckley, as I was of his father, Tim. Jeff would be happy that you compare him to Nick Drake. One of the main reasons I loved Napster is because it there was so much live Jeff Buckley music available through it. I love Mystery White Bow, and his live DVD. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 08:19:42 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Jeff Buckley's music on VH1(NJC) Hi Sherrelle, Couple 'o notes: I would also recommend "Grace" by Jeff Buckley. Easily one of the best records of the 90's. Doesn't all sound like "Hallelujah", but it's all remarkable. My wife liked that VW commercial and Nick Drake's "Pink Moon" so much she bought a VW Passat this year! (If you think I'm making this up, Victor can support my story). Back to Jeff Buckley...he was folksinger Tim Buckley's son. Tim also died a very young death. Amy Correia does a memorial/tribute song to Jeff on her dynamic "Carnival" CD. The title of the song is "Blind River Boy". And even though I'll leave the NJC tag on, Jeff does a ragged but brave cover of Joni's "People's Parties" And changing gears once more, best of luck and peace to you getting back to work and the rhythms of your life. Hope the joy can leak back in and fill you once more. Bob NP: Lucinda, "Come to me, Baby" (live '01) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 08:50:31 EDT From: Kammass@aol.com Subject: Fwd: backlash towards muslims In a message dated 9/17/2001 1:18:02 AM Central Daylight Time, KakkiB@worldnet.att.net writes: > Regarding the backlash towards Muslims and Arabs in the U.S. now. I really > did not think people could be so cruel but incidents have happened - even > here in L.A. where I thought we were more sensitive. I agree with your statement here and am scared. As many know, my husband is Palestinian, Muslim born in Tul Karem, Palestine-raised in Kuwait City, Kuwait. I am Italian-Scottish-Irish American, Catholic born in Vermont raised in Alabama. Ha-Ha! What a combo we are! After 10 yrs of marriage we decide to settle down and now we have John Calvin Samer who is almost 15 months. Regardless of where we come from we are the most unprejudice people you will meet. We have friends of all nationalities and religions and don't make friends based on those criteria. Assem has worked his way up from a fry cook in a local BBQ restaurant (ran by Greeks) to a Regional Manager of all 5 of their stores. I am a stay at home Mom with a Social Work degree. We have made a nice life for ourselves-we were young and did it all on our own. Now it feels as though it might all be taken away. We are raising our son in both religions and both cultures. He is learning both languages and, mostly, he is learning to be loved! We have friends who wear the Muslim dress (hajab), and are very religious. Some are American others Palestinians. There mosque has been threatened. They and their friends have been spat upon. Looks are different now. We are different now. It scares me to think that my son may grow up differently now. Calvin is a very beautiful baby and I'm not just saying that because I'm his mother. But the mix has been very good to him! Since he was born people have always commented on him and wanted to be near him. Strangers, family, friends, anyway you get the point. In instances with strangers, I have always commented -"...his Daddy is Arabic and my family is Italian..." This has now changed. We have to watch what we say, we have to watch where we go, we have to look to see who or what's around us. And its only been a week... I'm so sorry to unload this on all of you, but I felt like this was one of the most UN-bias places I knew. Thanks for listening and please be kind to your foreign American neighbors who feel the same as you towards Bin Ladin and this horrible attack on the United States and its people. Kammy in Alabammy Return-Path: Received: from rly-zd04.mx.aol.com (rly-zd04.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.228]) by air-zd02.mail.aol.com (v80.17) with ESMTP id MAILINZD22-0917021802; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 02:18:02 -0400 Received: from smoe.org (jane.smoe.org [66.89.201.78]) by rly-zd04.mx.aol.com (v80.21) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINZD46-0917021753; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 02:17:53 -0400 Received: from smoe.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smoe.org (8.12.0.Beta16/8.12.0.Beta16) with ESMTP id f8H69Uv1006688; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 02:09:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by smoe.org (8.12.0.Beta16/8.12.0.Beta16/submit) with SMTP id f8H69Oua006687; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 02:09:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by smoe.org (bulk_mailer v1.10); Mon, 17 Sep 2001 02:09:23 -0400 Received: from smoe.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smoe.org (8.12.0.Beta16/8.12.0.Beta16) with ESMTP id f8H69Mv1006679 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 02:09:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by smoe.org (8.12.0.Beta16/8.12.0.Beta16/submit) id f8H69LiQ006678 for joni-outgoing; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 02:09:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mtiwmhc26.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc26.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.51]) by smoe.org (8.12.0.Beta16/8.12.0.Beta16) with ESMTP id f8H69Bv1006665 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 02:09:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hppav ([12.80.5.156]) by mtiwmhc26.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.16 201-229-121-116-20010115) with SMTP id <20010917060905.OTBS26461.mtiwmhc26.worldnet.att.net@hppav> for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 06:09:05 +0000 Message-ID: <002301c13f3a$c2985220$9c05500c@hppav> From: "Kakki" To: Subject: Observations (njc) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 22:36:53 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-joni@jmdl.com Reply-To: "Kakki" Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Precedence: bulk I just went out to the local gas station to pick up a pack of cigarettes (unfortunately, I am smoking incessantly these days but not quite up to Joni volume). As I was there two men in official Army camo uniforms pulled up in a private vehicle to pick up some smokes themselves. I tried to convey my love and appreciation to them in that small moment. Regarding the backlash towards Muslims and Arabs in the U.S. now. I really did not think people could be so cruel but incidents have happened - even here in L.A. where I thought we were more sensitive. There is a secretary in my office who is a converted Muslim. She has always worn a certain kind of garment to work that looks pretty much like a nun's habit. On Wednesday morning when we returned to work, she was in Western clothing. Last Friday night I heard many loud sirens going with several fire trucks and police cars speeding down my street. A bit later, I had to go out and found a large section of a main street blockaded and surrounded by the police cars and fire trucks. I was relived to find out later that it was just heightened security for the Madonna concert! One of my co-workers tonight was at Madonna's concert here Thursday night. The way she described it made several of us choke up. Madonna had tears throughout and did everything she could to promote healing and unity among the crowd. She is giving the proceeds of these concerts to the orphans in New York. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 08:59:21 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: NJC - humor An old one: A conservative is a liberal who has been mugged. A liberal is a conservative who has been indicted. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 09:01:58 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: 1/11/99 Time Asia exclusive interview summoned by bin Laden NJC For those of you who don't have AOL, this is a link to an interview summoned by bin Laden on 1/11/99, a month following the attack on the U.S. embassies in Africa. http://www.time.com/time/asia/asia/magazine/1999/990111/osama1.html He spoke softly, in Arabic, praising God in nearly every sentence, but his voice rose whenever he criticized the United States. ..... rosemjoy@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 09:03:52 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Another perspective NJC In a message dated 9/17/01 7:54:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, AzeemAK@aol.com writes: > I believe very strongly that bombing Afghanistan would do no good at all, > and > this article adds to that belief. I only hope that those who really need > to > get the message do so. > > Azeem > You are probably correct that merely bombing Afghanistan would not accomplish the desired purpose. However, a multinational invasion aimed at removing and eliminating the Taliban and other elements of radical fundamentalist Muslim leadership would serve a purpose. The way the Taliban is defending, at least verbally so far, Bin Laden makes it appear as though Bin Laden is the de facto head of the Taliban rather than a "guest," as they say. In any case, I think most of us accept the fact that a mere bombing will not be enough this time, and that there will have to be a new government for Afghanistan. And on another plane, why is it that it always seems like the dictatorships we supported against the Soviets are just as bad or worse than what the Soviets would have installed? Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 15:04:56 +0200 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: RE: Another perspective (NJC) Here was my friend Mike's take on that article: "The writer doesn't mention what s/he expects moving ground troops into Afghanistan is going to accomplish. Judging from Viet Nam and Somalia, a lot of senseless deaths of young American soldiers would be the end result. "Freeze their assests. That's the fastest, most humane way to close these goons down. If we have to send in ground troops, send in NATO troops and have them disperse food and clothing." Further on the program I saw this morning, when I saw the Afghani people mourning the death of their resistance leader, I felt that it would be very tragic if any of them came to harm. Marian Vienna ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 15:11:24 +0200 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: RE: backlash towards muslims On 17 September 2001 14:51, Kammass@aol.com [SMTP:Kammass@aol.com] wrote: > In a message dated 9/17/2001 1:18:02 AM Central Daylight Time, > KakkiB@worldnet.att.net writes: > > > Regarding the backlash towards Muslims and Arabs in the U.S. now. I really > > did not think people could be so cruel but incidents have happened - even > > here in L.A. where I thought we were more sensitive. > > I agree with your statement here and am scared. As many know, my husband is > Palestinian, Muslim born in Tul Karem, Palestine-raised in Kuwait City, > Kuwait. I am Italian-Scottish-Irish American, Catholic born in Vermont > raised in Alabama. Ha-Ha! What a combo we are! After 10 yrs of marriage we > decide to settle down and now we have John Calvin Samer who is almost 15 > months. Dear Kammy, My sister is married to an Iranian man and I worry for her and their family and friends. I pray that your family and friends will be safe. Love, Marian ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 15:13:01 +0200 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: RE: Another perspective NJC On 17 September 2001 15:04, IVPAUL42@aol.com [SMTP:IVPAUL42@aol.com] wrote: > And on another plane, why is it that it always seems like the dictatorships > we supported against the Soviets are just as bad or worse than what the > Soviets would have installed? > Paul I Indeed. Marian Vienna ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 14:41:21 +0100 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: Tr: DED > <> BOB ANSWERED: > Without going into too much detail Laurent, I'll say that I think she allowed herself to get sucked in to some production that didn't bring out the best in her songs. Some great songs got buried and lost in studio gimmickry. > > Also, the songs she co-wrote with Klein forced her to pair music to a lyrical structure she was not used to. She comments in interviews that Klein writes in much choppier word structure than she does, and some of the songs feel that "force". > > But I don't throw out the dog with the bathwater. DED has some marvelous moments, and some great songs that Joni recasts in an unplugged fashion on other recordings which showcases their greatness. > > Bob > Hi Bob, I agree with your technical analysis of why DED is not a favorite. However I always felt that because the lyrics are particularly poignant, this forceful upbeat mood was a pretty clever way to compensate for that. In other words the music helped in swallowing the hard reality pill. Out of DED, I've only heard The 3 Great Stimulants done unplugged, and it does feel quite different. Although the music style in DED is not my personal favorite, I still think it serves its ultimate purpose well. Thats why I prefer the hard versions to mellower unplugged ones. Just a personal opinion. Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 15:39:05 +0100 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: Re: blame the Jews pt 3, NJC > > My 9 year old has a subscription to a daily news sheet for children. One > > could read the following in bold: "Why was the U.S. attacked? They have > > ennemies because they're friends with Israel". > Jerry asked: > And what is anti-Zionist about that statement? > Actually nothing much in appearance. Although the root of the attack very likely lies in the American support for Israel, I feel it's diverting the attention from the terrorists' overall motives, and oversimplifying by saying in essence it's the Jews' fault. There may be other motives behind this attack as well. Don't you think? What I'm trying to draw attention to is that instead of using any other explanations for the attack, this simplification could lead to a justification of re-using the old antisemitic scapegoat theory. We're paranoid because so many things have been blamed on Jews throughout the ages to justify killing them. A couple of well known examples are the plague in the middle ages, and unemployment in 1930's Germany. The general consensus now in the French media is that this is the reason the U.S. got attacked. What are they saying in the U.S.? Unrelated but interesting: Just heard that Mr. Arafat has been recently secretly looking out to purchase a 10 carat pink diamond (one of the most expensive diamonds) from jewelers in Paris via his law firm. Remember for many years IMF aid used to be deposited into his own bank account and he would do the redistributing. I wonder how many families in Gaza he could feed with that money? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 14:45:00 +0100 From: ReckersL@ebrd.com Subject: RE: desperately looking for... Dear all, thanks to Rose I have found a much simpler solution so that I can access those messages myself (namely via the archives, http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni/). I am very grateful, also for the other reply I've already received in such short time, offering to "play censor". I must say, I was a bit red cheeked asking for such a big favour, and I'm so glad to see the friendly responses I've received. So even if you don't hear from me again for a while, I will be there, reading and sharing your thoughts and information. Hoping somehow to keep in touch, with all my best wishes, Lieve. -----Original Message----- From: Reckers, Lieve Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 12:32 PM To: 'joni@smoe.org' Subject: desperately looking for... Yes, desperately looking for a JMDL digest-er with a kind heart and a bit of time. I'll explain in a minute, but first of all I should probably introduce myself again. I am an big Joni Mitchell fan based in London. I bought my first Joni album as a schoolgirl when I still lived in Belgium in 1970, but I really re-discovered her music in much more depth in the last year and am now spreading the word (ok, her music) with a missionary zeal as much as I can by making tapes or lending CDs to friends. I posted to the list once before in June, but probably still qualify as a lurker. I've been reading the digests for months and have got so much positive information out of it, and also I felt quite close to some of you through your postings, especially the latest Jonifest postings. The only reason for my passive lurkdom is simple lack of time. I only have a PC at work, so my access is limited in time, and all I can do is read the digests, so however tempting it sometimes is to "jump in", usually I don't. Now my access has been even more limited by our IT department, and that is the reason for my plea for help. They've installed this program which checks all external e-mails for certain "profane or unprofessional" words, supposedly to stop us being bothered by unwelcome soliciting. But the result is that out of the latest 40 or so digests, I've only received 3, the rest have been banned! You can imagine how bereft I feel! So I was hoping to find somebody who is also on the digest list, who could forward to me those digests that I don't receive (I get a system message each time a message is blocked, so I know there was one!). This person would need to first delete (or abbreviate, so I still know what's being said) any words that may have offended my Big Brother system. So yes, I'm in fact asking if someone could censor those messages for me! A very sad situation, but I don't know what else to do! I would be extremely grateful and will of course try to return the favour (copying some music or getting hold of books that may only be available in the UK, for instance) as much as I can! I'd love to hear from you and in any case, my very best regards to all of you, you're such a great bunch and I hope I can stay in touch, maybe even be less of a lurker and, time permitting, be more of a contributor one day! Lieve. ********************************************************************** EBRD SECURITY NOTICE This message has been Virus scanned ********************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 09:59:55 EDT From: Reuben3rd@aol.com Subject: debunking Nostrodamus ... NJC Could someone repost the link that debunked the WWWIII prediction...? A friend of mine is greatly upset by this, and it might make him feel better. Thanks, Reuben ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 10:10:57 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Another perspective (NJC) Something interesting I received which gives pause: Afghani Women's Movement statement. URL http://www.rawa.org ; The people of Afghanistan have nothing to do with Osama and his accomplices On September 11, 2001 the world was stunned with the horrific terrorist attacks on the United States. RAWA stands with the rest of the world in expressing our sorrow and condemnation for this barbaric act of violence and terror. RAWA had already warned that the United States should not support the most treacherous, most criminal, most anti-democracy and anti-women Islamic fundamentalist parties because after both the Jehadi and the Taliban have committed every possible type of heinous crimes against our people, they would feel no shame in committing such crimes against the American people whom they consider "infidel". In order to gain and maintain their power, these barbaric criminals are ready to turn easily to any criminal force. But unfortunately we must say that it was the government of the United States who supported Pakistani dictator Gen. Zia-ul Haq in creating thousands of religious schools from which the germs of Taliban emerged. In the similar way, as is clear to all, Osama Bin Laden has been the blue-eyed boy of CIA. But what is more painful is that American politicians have not drawn a lesson from their pro-fundamentalist policies in our country and are still supporting this or that fundamentalist band or leader. In our opinion any kind of support to the fundamentalist Taliban and Jehadies is actually trampling democratic, women's rights and human rights values. If it is established that the suspects of the terrorist attacks are outside the US, our constant claim that fundamentalist terrorists would devour their creators, is proved once more. The US government should consider the root cause of this terrible event, which has not been the first and will not be the last one too. The US should stop supporting Afghan terrorists and their supporters once and for all. Now that the Taliban and Osama are the prime suspects by the US officials after the criminal attacks, will the US subject Afghanistan to a military attack similar to the one in 1998 and kill thousands of innocent Afghans for the crimes committed by the Taliban and Osama? Does the US think that through such attacks, with thousands of deprived, poor and innocent people of Afghanistan as its victims, will be able to wipe out the root-cause of terrorism, or will it spread terrorism even to a larger scale? >From our point of view a vast and indiscriminate military attacks on a country that has been facing permanent disasters for more than two decades will not be a matter of pride. We don't think such an attack would be the expression of the will of the American people. The US government and people should know that there is a vast difference between the poor and devastated people of Afghanistan and the terrorist Jehadi and Taliban criminals. While we once again announce our solidarity and deep sorrow with the people of the US, we also believe that attacking Afghanistan and killing its most ruined and destitute people will not in any way decrease the grief of the American people. We sincerely hope that the great American people could DIFFERENTIATE between the people of Afghanistan and a handful of fundamentalist terrorists. Our hearts go out to the people of the US. Down with terrorism! ************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 07:41:47 -0700 (PDT) From: "Lori R. Fye" Subject: Re: NJC!!!! (another perspective...) > shit. i forgot the njc tag. my apologies. Personally, Ric, I'm glad you forgot the tag. I think your post is something everyone should read and consider. Lori, in the 8 percent, in MD ~ __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 08:43:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: NJC 1 answer to bigotry Let's just be real, a conservative in this country is not to be compared in any way to a conservative of the Islamic vein practiced by Bin Laden. Even looking to hate mongers, bigoted hypocrites like Falwell, Reed, Robertson ... and as I think of each one now to name they can never compare to Binny Baby! However, they have some very extreme misguided followers who misinterpret or create their own agenda, based on what these leaders say and imply. Although most days I wouldn't defend these leaders one iota, I am still looking to find more common ground and searching for peaceful solutions wherever they may be hiding these days. Also in further defense of Kakki, not that she needs it. I have my own interpretation of Kakki's ideology. I think everyone has theirs of mine and others who speak up politically here. But be very careful & clear about the word conservative, it has become as ugly as liberal was made to be in the 80's. One size does not fit all. Conservatives of the 70's, were not the religious laced, Christian Crusaders that we have trying to invoke religion into our constitution and threatening individual rights. I found Kakki to be a compassionate, sharing, excepting human, I doubt she harbors any prejudice. I think anyone would want her as a friend or on their team, I know anyone who has met her does not doubt her in the least. There really are several different types or levels of conservative. You know many conservatives, are really much more Libertarian in their beliefs ... something I personally can live much more comfortably with. They may not always appear as compassionate as I would like, but this form of conservatism is pretty unbiased. While on the other hand religious fanatics or racists or right wing militants, normally have hate or bigotry or greed driving them. I just ask that if you're going to throw labels around on this list you really know what you're talking about, so nobody gets hurt. And secondly lets be aware of our real enemies, let there be no witch hunt from either side of the aisle, not only at his time in our history, but ever. Okay done running my mouth off for a bit ... Peace Susan Guzzi __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2001 #414 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?