From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2001 #404 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Thursday, September 13 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 404 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- NJC The Old Grey Whistle Test [pyramus@lineone.net] Re: The Old Grey Whistle Test [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] bullshit (NJC) [Tyler Hewitt ] simply pathetic(njc) ["Victor Johnson" ] NJC - just checking in [Janene Otten ] Re: simply pathetic(njc) ["Gerald A. Notaro" ] Paz & Les ["Kate Bennett" ] Debra ["Kate Bennett" ] NJC-Canada has a serious problem ["shane mattison" ] Re: Personal attacks vs ideological debate (NJC) Not For Shea, Azeem, and Colin [RobSher50] Re: Paz NJC [cvickery@danielrealty.com] Re: Paz (NJC) ["Kakki" ] Fwd: Goodbye [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: Paz NJC [dsk ] RE: Paz NJC ["Kate Bennett" ] Ode to Topsfield - NJC ["hell" ] Aching........ (NJC) [AsharaJM@aol.com] Re: Ode to Topsfield - NJC [colin ] Re: Ode to Topsfield - NJC [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: simply pathetic(njc) [jan gyn ] Re: The Old Grey Whistle Test [pyramus@lineone.net] an apology (njc) [pyramus@lineone.net] Re: To Michael Paz and everyone else too (NJC) [pyramus@lineone.net] RE: (NJC) Nostradamus 1654 [pyramus@lineone.net] Re: Look ... up in the sky! (NJC) ["Suze Cameron" ] Re: Paz (njc) ["Suze Cameron" ] Re: Paz NJC [cvickery@danielrealty.com] the country as one (NJC) [jan ] NJC - grace and peace ["shane mattison" ] Jeff's ok & Alison's on her way to Utah [dsk ] Re: forgive my ignorance NJC [Catherine McKay ] NJC - Battle Hymn of the Republic ["shane mattison" ] NJC - The WTC, next to Calgary photo ["shane mattison" ] Julian of Norwich (NJC) [AsharaJM@aol.com] (sjc) Uncanny coincidence, and stickin' around [BigWaltinSF@aol.com] marcel - njc [PMcfad@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 18:36:08 +0100 From: pyramus@lineone.net Subject: NJC The Old Grey Whistle Test Starting this Monday in the U.K. on BBC2 there is a series of retospective programmes looking at 30 years of the captioned rock music show introduced by the lugubrious 'Whispering' Bob Harris. I don't think Joni ever appeared on this show but there may be some good moments nonetheless. Kevin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 13:47:53 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: The Old Grey Whistle Test <> Kevin, what is the connection between OGWT and "Whistle Test Extra"? Joni WAS on that BBC-2 program in 1986, doing promo work for DED. It's nice video, I've shared it with quite a few folks. Bob, always happy to remove the NJC from a subject line... NP: Wilco, "Sunken Treasure" (live) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 10:52:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Tyler Hewitt Subject: bullshit (NJC) Sorry folks, but this is stuff is bullshit. What's next, references to the WTC disaster in the Bible code? Gimme a break! A more likely coincidence with dates and numbers is that the Camp David peace accord was signed on 9/11/78. This was reported on the news on Tuesday, but I haven't heard reference to it since. RE: - - ----- ----- ----- In the City of God there will be a great thunder, Two brothers torn apart by Chaos, while the fortress endures, the great leader will succumb, "The third big war will begin when the big city is burning on the 11th day of the 9th month that two metal birds would crash into two tall statues in the new city...and the world will ed soon after" - - - Nostradamus 1654 two brothers = WTC Towers fortress = Pentagon great leader = Bush or USA big city / new city = New York The flights that were Highjacked were numbered as follows: 11 = 11 September 9+3 = 12 September 1+7+5 = 13 September 7+7 = 14 September Hopefully this is a coincidence and the terrorists can't add, but if this is corect there will either be acts of terrorism every day for the next few days of a grand event on the last day. 9.11.01 - Tragic day; not only is 911 scary enought but 01 is the country code for the Middle East. Take a look at two Flights: 81 Passengers 9 Flight Attendants 2 Pilots 8+1 = 9 9+2 = 11 911 56 Passengers 7 Flight Attendants 2 Pilots 5+6 = 11 7+2 = 9 911 inverted __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 13:53:37 -0400 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: simply pathetic(njc) I heard a report today that someone had the gall to set up a table yesterday in New York selling t-shirts that said "I flew a plane into the World Trade Center and all I got was this lousy t-shirt". Fortunately, some people beat the @#$% out of him and he quickly packed up. It seems like the best and the worst come out of people...you really see what they're made of. Victor Victor Johnson http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson "Velveteen rabbits and moonbeams, Come when you lay down your head. While you are sleeping, they kiss you and tell you, That you are the reason the sun lights the sky." Scarlet-V. Johnson ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 13:55:46 -0400 From: Janene Otten Subject: NJC - just checking in Hello and first off, God bless all of you for your spirit and good will. I just wanted to let everyone know I'm okay. Keep the faith everyone and I'll do the same. I am at work in NYC today but there have been some bomb threats so we'll see how it goes. I'm sure these are stupid pranks. Please keep my family in your thoughts and prayers. My cousin, Michael Otten, is a firefighter and missing. I hope he is one of those firefighters who was rescued in the last two hours. Peace to all - Peace - Janene Janene Otten janeneo@mji.com www.RockDaily.com www.RockNews.com "I stood unwound beneath the skies And clouds unbound by laws. The cryin' rain like a trumpet sang And asked for no applause" - B. Dylan - -- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:09:15 -0400 From: "Gerald A. Notaro" Subject: Re: simply pathetic(njc) Victor Johnson wrote: > I heard a report today that someone had the gall to set up a table yesterday > in New York selling t-shirts that said "I flew a plane into the World Trade > Center and all I got was this lousy t-shirt". Fortunately, some people beat > the @#$% out of him and he quickly packed up. It seems like the best and > the worst come out of people...you really see what they're made of. What's worse is some people were trying to sell debris and subway signs on ebay. Luckily ebay has banned all such sales as of this morning. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 11:08:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: Look ... up in the sky! (NJC) It's a bird ... no, it's a plane! Imagine a group of grown men and women, standing together in a parking lot, looking up into the sky ... pointing and waving and cheering at what was plainly a passenger jet flying overhead. Well, if we were foolish, so be it. But I am imagining that this is just one of the many small things we'll all realize we've taken for granted. What a different world it's become, indeed. Don Rowe ===== Visit me anytime at http://www.mp3.com/donrowe __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 10:59:54 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Paz & Les Paz is one of the most generous & peace-loving individuals I have ever had the privledge of meeting. I just needed to say this in public as he someone who does so much to keep the peace, to inspire, to bring people together & he is not deserving of any recent criticism. In spite of the fact that I have in the past received similar private emails (from Marcel) to the one that Debra posted here, I was willing to give Marcel a second chance & meet him in person. This was due to Michael's posts regarding the other side of Marcel. It is true, Marcel does have another side & I am glad I was at this year's Jonifest to experience this in person. I do not understand how someone could be so different in person, in writing about music & then so mean-spirited to certain people in private posts. I experienced both extremes. But since this is a forum of words, the words must be taken into account when making the decision as to whether someone is hurting the culture of this list. Les, I completely support your decision & understand the mixed feelings that you feel about it & know how extremely painful it must have been to decide. I send my love & peace to you all. ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 11:49:03 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Debra Debra, we love you, forgive you, & are happy you are safe! Peace. ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 13:30:18 -0600 From: "shane mattison" Subject: NJC-Canada has a serious problem the facts are too numerous to ignore...that Canada, through mind-numbing laxity, has become a conduit for numerous terrorist organizations... the background on this: http://www.nationalpost.com/features/siege/story.html?f=/stories/20010913/685 401.html let's clean up our act, shane ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 15:19:56 EDT From: RobSher50@aol.com Subject: Re: Personal attacks vs ideological debate (NJC) Not For Shea, Azeem, and Colin Dear Marcel, Colin is very right about your comments. They make absolutely no sense whatsoever. I've not been in the midst of this battle and I have no idea how the whole thing started. All I know is that none of what you have ever said has made any sense. I have tried to understand, but for the life of me cannot make sense of your rhetoric. I am sure I am not alone. Just thought you might want to know. Sherelle Colin wrote: Also, as far as your politics go, i don't give a toss what you believe in. I don't even know what you believe in. Why? Because you are so damn rude about it, your message is lost. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 14:33:23 -0500 From: cvickery@danielrealty.com Subject: Re: Paz NJC The Michael Paz that I've heard about on the list recently certainly isn't the same Michael Paz that I met on a recent trip to Louisiana. There must be *two* Pazezes (what *is* the correct plural, anyhow?)! The Michael Paz that *I* met invited me, a lurker to a list that he is a vital member of, yep, really a complete stranger, and Gisele (boy, talk about stranger!!) into his home. And once we were there, he generously taught Gisele about his VG-8, spending hours with her, letting her play his guitar and giving her advice. Then, as though we hadn't already destroyed his Sunday afternoon, the Michael Paz *I* met packed up his son and accompanied Gisele and I to several guitar shops as we experimented with the VG-88. And still, he was right there, generously offering advice and free guitar strings and amazing Paz-only discounts and martinis with limes (??) and everything else we needed and wanted. The Paz *I* met was generous with his time and was open-minded and completely open-handed and dear. I can't imagine him to be the close-minded monster-with-an-agenda that I've been hearing about. Cindy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 12:28:13 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Paz (NJC) Dear Azeem, > I understand your anger at my post I really wasn't angry, just sad for Paz. I have always read every single word that is written here (which is probably not always a good thing!) and think I have much understanding as to where you and everyone else involved have been coming from. I thought to let the aspect regarding Paz go, although I really felt for him, and certainly can empathize with what Debra is going through right now. But what kind of friend would I be to Paz to sit here quietly as he was being brought into something he did not deserve? That, however, is not my ultimate point. I just want to emphasize that one cannot totally judge a person by what they write or do not write on the Joni list alone. It seems so severe and draconian to me to assess people on that basis alone. I think I know Paz well enough to know that he always means well from his heart. Heather mentioned earlier that she has her own reasons for not getting involved in these particular conflicts/debates. So do I - and they have absolutely nothing to do with Debra, Marcel, colin or you. I hope you will understand that if something like this ever comes up again, and not judge my silence. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 15:53:04 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Fwd: Goodbye Rose is having trouble getting e-mail through and has asked me to forward this to the list. --Bob Return-path: From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Full-name: RoseMJoy Message-ID: <4d.11385b38.28d2683d@aol.com> Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 15:51:25 EDT Subject: Fwd: Goodbye To: Murphycopy@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10535 X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: from multipart/mixed by demime 0.97c X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: Alternative section used was multipart/alternative rosemjoy@aol.com Return-path: From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Full-name: RoseMJoy Message-ID: <51.111a08b8.28d22f49@aol.com> Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 11:48:25 EDT Subject: Re: Goodbye To: steve@psitech.com, joni@smoe.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10535 X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: from multipart/alternative by demime 0.97c X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: Alternative section used was text/plain I'm sorry Steve that you feel that you must unsubscribe from the JMDL, but I understand and respect your decision just as I respect all of you. I wish you happiness and we will miss your presence in this community. I know that the decision that Les had to make to unsubscribe Marcel from the list had to be a painful and difficult decision and I have told him these things just like I'm telling you. I support him and I hope someday we can all be together again and work out our differences. The rules of this list have been set forth really clear. For those who are not familiar with them or need to review them again, they're put forth on the JMDL page before you subscribed. I feel really sad for all concerned that things had to come to this. I don't know what the answer is, but I hope we find one. One thing that I've learned is that conflict will just lead to more conflict. No one really wins. I'm sure Debra is right from her point of view as well as Marcel feels he's right from his, Colin from his... I pray that there is a return of camaraderie and a strong sense of community feeling and that we don't abuse and insult one another. A reminder of what brought us all together here in the first place, Joni Mitchell's art and music. I would really feel ashamed if she were to subscribe to this list and witness the insults and negative behavior that has been going on here lately. What do you think she'd say or do? And this could very well happen. She mentioned someday of the possibility of getting a computer. None of us really know one another. I met Marcel in New England this past Labor Day and I have to admit, I had some reservations, so I walked up to him and shook his hand. He really is a talented musician and it saddens me that he's gone. I mentioned to Alison, that he reminded me a lot of my brother Nick who is a very complex person, I might add. At some point Marcel came up from behind me and stroked my hair. I felt relaxed in his presence and not at all threatened by him and no, there was no hatred. Know that I'm going trough some really difficult times right now. I'm not a perfect person. I'm only human like the rest of you all. I've had my fair share of failed relationships with people. I only ask that you appreciate the time I took out of my life to reach out to this list. Sorry in advance for the NJC. Peace to all, Rose in NJ rosemjoy@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 16:18:39 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: Paz NJC cvickery@danielrealty.com wrote: > > > The Paz *I* met was generous with his time and was open-minded > and completely open-handed and dear. > I can't imagine him to be the close-minded monster-with-an-agenda > that I've been hearing about. Cindy, What a second here. The confusion seems to be growing instead of diminishing. No one has ever said that Michael Paz is a "close-minded monster-with-an-agenda". No, no, no, nothing anything like that, no way! Your story about his generosity toward you doesn't surprise me at all. It's another example in a long long list. The controversy is only in his perceived complete support of his pal Marcel's actions. That, too, can be seen as a sign of Michael's generosity rather than anything hurtful toward anyone. At another time, I would have appreciated that more than I was able to in the last few days. I think it is possible to disagree vehemently with and be furious about someone's actions and still love that person. It's not always easy to make it clear that the anger is toward the action and not a complete condemnation of the entire person. Apparently, that is the confusion here, and is something I need to sort out with Michael. I sincerely hope I will be able to do that soon. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 12:58:48 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: Paz NJC cindy, the paz you met is the only one there is...generous beyond belief.... ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 08:33:37 +1200 From: "hell" Subject: Ode to Topsfield - NJC I've been debating posting this to the list. It seemed OK when I first wrote it, but on reflection it's a little more sugary that I'd normally like. But in view of recent events and the disharmony on the list, I thought it couldn't hurt. This was penned a couple of days after Jonifest 2001. Ode to Topsfield Here I am remembering Great times shared with wonderful friends And wishing I was back there still But all good things must end The laughter and the music Kindred spirits and the joining of souls The feeling of camaraderie Many pieces becoming the whole We are bonded across the oceans Not diminished by being apart Though many days may pass 'til we meet again I'm forever holding you in my heart. Hell ____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Hell's Personal Photo Page: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/main/personal.htm Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://www.nbls.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 16:33:34 EDT From: AsharaJM@aol.com Subject: Aching........ (NJC) My heart is aching even more today, if that is even possible. I found out this afternoon that a friend's son-in-law was killed on Flight #11 from Boston. He left behind 2 young sons. His story is on page 20 of today's New York Times: "There was Robert Hayes, 37, a salesman for machinery to record compact discs and a surfer who worked mostly from home so he could spend time with his wife and sons, 4 years old and 6 months old. He had met his wife, Debora, when she was a customer service agent for Trans World Airlines dealing with a flight he had missed. Since then they had traveled frequently together. Somehow, she said yesterday, he had a premonition about this flight, taking a walk alone the night before, and hugging her tight before he left for the airport." I also heard that at a family cookout this past Sunday, he told his extended family he had a strange feeling about going on this business trip, and that he didn't want to go. So, so sad. Hugs, Ashara ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 21:48:47 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: Ode to Topsfield - NJC Don't ever feel relcutant to share such sentiment. Nothing sugary about it at all. It is lovely and from the heart. Thanks for sharing it. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 16:41:12 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: Ode to Topsfield - NJC In a message dated 9/13/01 4:32:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hell@ihug.co.nz writes: > Here I am remembering > Great times shared with wonderful friends > That was wonderful Hell! Thanks for sending it to the list. We miss you, and hope you had safe trip. Jimmy, awaiting the arrival of Coyote Rick! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 14:04:54 -0700 From: jan gyn Subject: Re: simply pathetic(njc) At 01:53 PM 9/13/01 -0400, Victor Johnson wrote: >I heard a report today that someone had the gall to set up a table yesterday >in New York selling t-shirts that said "I flew a plane into the World Trade >Center and all I got was this lousy t-shirt". Fortunately, some people beat >the @#$% out of him and he quickly packed up. It seems like the best and >the worst come out of people...you really see what they're made of. Oh man. This actually made me laugh, albeit in a choking, hollow way. Capitalist gall and the beating thereof- it seems just as American as the current patriotic fervor. - -jan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 22:18:12 +0100 From: pyramus@lineone.net Subject: Re: The Old Grey Whistle Test Bob wrote; >Kevin, what is the connection between OGWT and "Whistle Test Extra"? Joni WAS on that BBC-2 program in 1986, doing promo work for DED. It's nice video, I've shared it with quite a few folks. > As far as I can recall Bob, the Whistle Test Extra was just an adjunct to the OGWT, showcasing an individual rather than several acts. It may have been used rather like a film trailer to advertise an upcoming or newly released album. There are five half hour programmes next week. I have the Monday to Wednesday lists which include live performances from John Lennon, Patti Smith, Bob Marley, New York Dolls, Lynyrd Skynyrd, Talking Heads, Gil Scott Heron and others. Don't have the Thursday or Friday listings yet. If Joni was on the Whistle Test Extra they might sneak her in. I'll be on the watchout. Thanks for letting me know. Kevin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 22:41:45 +0100 From: pyramus@lineone.net Subject: an apology (njc) Anne that's a terrifying story. I too have a morbid fear of fire. I remember with horror the scene in Towering Inferno where those people are burnt alive in the elevator. The fact that it is only a film doesn't lessen the horror. I had terrible dreams after that. Coincidentally I saw the beginning of a film the other night where Quentin Tarantino and George Clooney poured petrol over a man, set light to him and shot him, then walked away laughing and joking. That revulsed me too. How anyone can call that entertainment is beyond me. Incidentally 'Blood Black Night' is wonderful. I imagine they are lyrics to a song, but they stand alone as good poetry too. Kevin. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 22:52:22 +0100 From: pyramus@lineone.net Subject: Re: To Michael Paz and everyone else too (NJC) Bob wrote; <> Careful Bob. When Marcel confided that you were his hero he got chucked off the list. ;) Kevin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 22:59:11 +0100 From: pyramus@lineone.net Subject: RE: (NJC) Nostradamus 1654 Nostradamus...I wouldn't worry too much over his predictions. Very few have proved to have any historical accuracy over the years. Too general by far. Mind you...he didn't mention anything about a new Joni album of completely new material in 2002 did he? :) Kevin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 18:10:45 -0400 From: "Suze Cameron" Subject: Re: Look ... up in the sky! (NJC) Don, Same thing happened to me walking out of school today. Only thing was that I was standing in shadow of our flag at half mast. Keep thinking about that commerical for Southwest Airlines..."You are now free to move about the country". I believe we have forever lost that freedom. Those of you who have traveled to England know the security measures taken there. Our days of hopping on a domestic and taking off are gone. We have lost our innocence. How lucky to have had it all these years. Thanks to all the NYC listers who posted their experiences. Kay, Deb and Patrick especially. Jeff you still out there? I know you are mostly a lurker but would like to hear how you are doing. Kay and Deb, you should look into having your e-mails published somewhere, they were that powerful. May this bring us together and let us pray that our country will seek justice in a humane and democratic fashion. To blindly strike back would only clothe us in the same terrorist garb. Sue Get 250 color business cards for FREE! http://businesscards.lycos.com/vp/fastpath/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 18:18:15 -0400 From: "Suze Cameron" Subject: Re: Paz (njc) O.k., I'm not afraid to say it! Michael Paz is a fecking fecker! He made me peel dozens upon dozens of shellfish, then I was subjected to hours of his so called "Joni" music. What kinda guy is he anyway??????????????????????? **********JOKE*********************:-) side note: Plane was four hours late so didn't participate in shrimpy peeling even though I wanted to learn! Peace. Sue Get 250 color business cards for FREE! http://businesscards.lycos.com/vp/fastpath/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 17:18:07 -0500 From: cvickery@danielrealty.com Subject: Re: Paz NJC <> debra - thanks for the clarification.... i sure didn't mean to add fuel to any fire, but i did want to support my friend michael who, seemingly, was getting more "branded with the cattle he ran with" than i was comfortable with. LOL guess i should fade back into lurkdom!! atb, cindy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 15:05:09 -0700 From: jan Subject: the country as one (NJC) Supposedly the NY Times yesterday had a caption of the hideous effect the 09/11 tragedy had in other parts of the country, saying "Texas postponed an execution." - -jan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 17:11:15 -0600 From: "shane mattison" Subject: NJC - grace and peace the apostle st paul has a little word about the community spirit, which i hope that, though we be in a difficult and trying time, we may endeavour to emulate, since these below are universal counsels and non-sectarian in nature: i hope we all can have this compassion and tenderness at such a time as this... Peace and grace to you all... shane ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 19:20:38 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Jeff's ok & Alison's on her way to Utah Suze Cameron wrote: > > Jeff you still out there? I know you are mostly a lurker but would like > to hear how you are doing. I spoke on the phone with Jeff yesterday. He doesn't have a computer at home and quit his job a while ago, so doesn't have access to a computer. I don't think he'd mind if I let you all know he's ok. He was at home on 23rd Street on the west side when it happened and like everyone here was in shock about it all and trying to make some sense of it, if that's even possible ever. He talked about Alison's great difficulty on Tuesday morning. She had planned to leave for Utah on Monday, driving a truck and accompanied by a friend, and waited to leave on Tuesday instead. So on Tuesday morning, all of her belongings were packed in the truck, the planes hit the towers and all the bridges and tunnels to the city were closed almost immediately so she couldn't leave, didn't want to unpack, really wanted to get out of here, didn't want to leave the truck with all her stuff in it on the street overnight if she had to stay until Wednesday, all of that on top of knowing of and feeling the horror that was happening downtown. Jeff said she called the police station in upper Manhattan and they told her she could perhaps get out by going all the way up the west side, thru Harlem and Washington Heights, and go over one of the bridges up there. When I talked to Jeff he didn't know if she'd been successful and figured she'd be back if she hadn't found a bridge to cross over. In one of the messages to the list, Julius mentioned that Alison had called from Ohio, so apparently she is safely on her way home. Thanks Julius for passing that info on. Alison herself will probably let you all know what happened as soon as she's able to. One of the happy thoughts that crossed my mind as I was walking home on Tuesday was thinking that she had left the day before and would then be safely on the road near upstate New York, where it would be green and fresh and not at all covered with ash. It made me sad on Tuesday to hear that that had not been her experience. I'm glad to know that she's on her way home now. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 19:47:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: forgive my ignorance NJC - --- Garret wrote: > I would like to know something about the Federal > Government- what is it? How > does it work? How does, for example, a mayor and a > governor fit in there. > And what is the role of the FBI etc? I think that > this knowledge would > further my understanding of the relief effort > currently being discussed by > the Mayor of NY on television. Here's a Canadian butting in. I'm not that familiar with how American politics work either, and, like you, I'm pretty apolitical (even though I ALWAYS vote) but I think I get some of it - I can only do this by comparing it to our system, which is kind of like the British one, but I'm not sure how this works in Ireland (I believe you have MPs too - members of parliament?) Where the = sign doesn't really mean "equals" but more like "comes close to being equal"... They're not really equal because, although much of our political system is similar to the U.S. one, there's also a lot that is different. I think there are some political scientists on the list who could probably do a good job of explaining this. Let's hope there's a quick-and-dirty (American politics for idiots) explanation for those of us who only want the "executive summary." US President = Canadian Prime Minister (elected head of federal gov't) US Governor = Canadian Premier (sometimes also called Prime Minister, but is the elected head of a provincial government) U.S. state = Canadian province (I'm not sure how this works in England or Ireland, where I believe you have counties, but they may be more like states or provinces than what we call counties. We have counties too, which are kind of a larger political thing than cities, but smaller than a province (or state). To confuse matters, some of the larger urban areas (in Ontario, the province where I live anyway) are now called "Regional Municipalities", rather than counties. U.S. Mayor = Canadian Mayor (elected head of a city - in a case like a city as large and powerful as New York, the mayor is a major political player). There's more, but after this, I get confused too. In Canada we have senators, as they do in the U.S., but in the U.S. their senators are elected, whereas ours are appointed by the government in power at the time (hence, they tend to support the gov't in power and this is a source of great controversy here, where people are always talking about either abolishing the Senate or making it work the way the U.S. system does, as elected by the people. If a bill is voted into a law, it must be approved by the Senate. In Canada, it is highly unlikely that the Senate would veto any law that had passed through parliament, mostly because they are appointed by the gov't in power - however, it could happen if the previous gov't had appointed a whole bunch of *their* people just before an election that resulted in a different party coming into power - our senators are appointed *for life* which is another thing many Canadians aren't too crazy about. In the U.S. senators are elected, so they have to change every few years and you could, and often do, have Democrats in one house but Republicans in the other (senate). Also, in the U.S. the president is elected separately from the local representatives, so yuo could have a Democractic president, but the majority of the representatives are Republicans. In Canada, it's the head of the political party that wins the most seats in parliament that becomes Prime Minister, so if there's a Liberal majority (which there is now), then the head of the gov't is likewise a Liberal.) And then again, the U.S. is a republic, as is Ireland, but Canada is not. We are a democracy but we are still part of the British Commonwealth, whatever that means, and so we have a Governor General, who is appointed, but who is supposed to be the Queen's representative. He or she signs any act passed into Parliament as a representative of the Queen (Royal Assent). A bill becomes law here only when it has had Royal Assent. I'm not aware of any case of a governor general refusing to sign a bill that had passed through parliament and I suppose it's highly unlikely - - a Gov General is more or less a figurehead who attends special events with much pomp and circumstance, but has no political clout that I'm aware of at all. This is another Canadian/British thing that seems kind of quaint and cute - the GG arrives at special occasions or tea with the royals when they visit us colonials, in a horse-drawn carriage and so on, but doesn't IMO have much practical value whatsoever and is most likely not a very good use of the taxpayers dollar, although I believe they are supposed to be sort of a "neutral" presence, without any noticeable political leanings. Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 18:01:07 -0600 From: "shane mattison" Subject: NJC - Battle Hymn of the Republic At the funeral of Winston Churchill, one of his favourite hymns was played. His mother Jenny was American, and he was a fond student, and a skilled one, of american history, researching even about the author of this hymn. The hymn should not be taken as an excuse for unjust jingoism, but rather a rallying cry for those who feel battered by the recent events, a confidence that ultimately good will triumph someday, and this goodness is not any one nation or groups private domain. That being said, a certain amount of patriotism is a necessary requirement to have a healthy society. I feel I can promote this because I'm a Canadian who has an American mother and have lived many years in the United States. Sometimes mistakes were made against people such as the poor in latin america. To sing a hymn like this isn't to ignore that, but that it is right to love and serve your country, if you hope that your country is maintaining its commitment to democratic values. This site below also movingly puts us in touch with those who have gone before us...in this case with the union army. My great grandfather lost his leg at gettysburg. There have been horrors in the past, but like the ancient chinese calligraphy...the same word for danger also means opportunity. I think there's opportunity to turn back to our loving God, for example... remembering the past helps us to meet the present and future with renewed hope...and confidence... Lady Julian of Norwich said that ultimately, "All shall be well, and all manners of things shall be well..." Any ways, here is the Battle Hymn of the Republic site: http://www.fortunecity.com/tinpan/parton/2/battle.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 18:10:30 -0600 From: "shane mattison" Subject: NJC - The WTC, next to Calgary photo the following link, in a photograph of downtown calgary (a couple years old) taken from right near where i live has inserted the WTC in it...this is not meant to sensationalize, says the original sender, but to point out, movingly i think, a certain perspective on this tragic event which would encourage us all the more in extending our love and solicitude to the sufferers in New York. http://www.alpinenine.com/wtc with prayer and love to americans today, shane ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 19:07:55 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: garret njc Garret, I will try to tell you about the American government and try to not be too detailed. Mayors preside over cities or towns and usually work in conjunction with city councils. Governors preside over their particular state and have legislative branches in each state that they work with. Of course, the mayors and each city are under the auspices of the governors and the state governments. Even so, each city has a certain amount of autonomy as does each state. All states are under the auspices of the federal government. The federal government is divided into three parts, the judicial, the executive, and the legislative. The judicial is the court system and there are many courts; city courts, regional courts, state courts, federal courts and the highest is the Supreme Court. The executive is the area of the president. The legislative is the House of Representative and the Senate. All three branches work together and have different powers and do different things. Gets pretty complicated but that is it in a nutshell. All of these representatives of both houses are elected officials and may serve for their entire lifetimes if they keep getting elected. The President is of course also elected but can only serve two terms, maximum. Federal judges are appointed as are the judges on the supreme court and are in their positions for their lifetimes, if they choose. The FBI and the CIA are governmental agencies that have the jobs of surveillance and that kind of thing. Subversive kinds of activities. Hope that helped. Mack and i may have got some of that messed up but somebody will help, I am sure. - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Catherine McKay" To: "Garret" ; Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 6:47 PM Subject: Re: forgive my ignorance NJC > --- Garret wrote: > > I would like to know something about the Federal > > Government- what is it? How > > does it work? How does, for example, a mayor and a > > governor fit in there. > > And what is the role of the FBI etc? I think that > > this knowledge would > > further my understanding of the relief effort > > currently being discussed by > > the Mayor of NY on television. > > Here's a Canadian butting in. I'm not that familiar > with how American politics work either, and, like you, > I'm pretty apolitical (even though I ALWAYS vote) but > I think I get some of it - I can only do this by > comparing it to our system, which is kind of like the > British one, but I'm not sure how this works in > Ireland (I believe you have MPs too - members of > parliament?) > > Where the = sign doesn't really mean "equals" but more > like "comes close to being equal"... They're not > really equal because, although much of our political > system is similar to the U.S. one, there's also a lot > that is different. I think there are some political > scientists on the list who could probably do a good > job of explaining this. Let's hope there's a > quick-and-dirty (American politics for idiots) > explanation for those of us who only want the > "executive summary." > > US President = Canadian Prime Minister (elected head > of federal gov't) > > US Governor = Canadian Premier (sometimes also called > Prime Minister, but is the elected head of a > provincial government) > > U.S. state = Canadian province (I'm not sure how this > works in England or Ireland, where I believe you have > counties, but they may be more like states or > provinces than what we call counties. We have > counties too, which are kind of a larger political > thing than cities, but smaller than a province (or > state). To confuse matters, some of the larger urban > areas (in Ontario, the province where I live anyway) > are now called "Regional Municipalities", rather than > counties. > > U.S. Mayor = Canadian Mayor (elected head of a city - > in a case like a city as large and powerful as New > York, the mayor is a major political player). > > There's more, but after this, I get confused too. In > Canada we have senators, as they do in the U.S., but > in the U.S. their senators are elected, whereas ours > are appointed by the government in power at the time > (hence, they tend to support the gov't in power and > this is a source of great controversy here, where > people are always talking about either abolishing the > Senate or making it work the way the U.S. system does, > as elected by the people. If a bill is voted into a > law, it must be approved by the Senate. In Canada, it > is highly unlikely that the Senate would veto any law > that had passed through parliament, mostly because > they are appointed by the gov't in power - however, it > could happen if the previous gov't had appointed a > whole bunch of *their* people just before an election > that resulted in a different party coming into power - > our senators are appointed *for life* which is another > thing many Canadians aren't too crazy about. In the > U.S. senators are elected, so they have to change > every few years and you could, and often do, have > Democrats in one house but Republicans in the other > (senate). Also, in the U.S. the president is elected > separately from the local representatives, so yuo > could have a Democractic president, but the majority > of the representatives are Republicans. In Canada, > it's the head of the political party that wins the > most seats in parliament that becomes Prime Minister, > so if there's a Liberal majority (which there is now), > then the head of the gov't is likewise a Liberal.) > > And then again, the U.S. is a republic, as is Ireland, > but Canada is not. We are a democracy but we are > still part of the British Commonwealth, whatever that > means, and so we have a Governor General, who is > appointed, but who is supposed to be the Queen's > representative. He or she signs any act passed into > Parliament as a representative of the Queen (Royal > Assent). A bill becomes law here only when it has had > Royal Assent. I'm not aware of any case of a governor > general refusing to sign a bill that had passed > through parliament and I suppose it's highly unlikely > - a Gov General is more or less a figurehead who > attends special events with much pomp and > circumstance, but has no political clout that I'm > aware of at all. This is another Canadian/British > thing that seems kind of quaint and cute - the GG > arrives at special occasions or tea with the royals > when they visit us colonials, in a horse-drawn > carriage and so on, but doesn't IMO have much > practical value whatsoever and is most likely not a > very good use of the taxpayers dollar, although I > believe they are supposed to be sort of a "neutral" > presence, without any noticeable political leanings. > Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 20:13:20 EDT From: AsharaJM@aol.com Subject: Julian of Norwich (NJC) Shane wrote: > Lady Julian of Norwich said that ultimately, "All shall be well, and all > manners of things shall be well..." > which made me think of a dance we do in Sacred Circle Dance. The song is based on this saying, and what better time to think of it. The yellow daffodil coming through the snow makes me think of the hope we all must have for this country to get back on it's feet, coming up through the dust. Thank you, Shane for reminding me of this. BELLS OF NORWICH Loud are the bells of Norwich , and the people come and go. Here by the town of Julian, I tell you what I know. Chorus: Ring out, Bells of Norwich, and let the winter come and go. All shall be well again, I know. Love like the yellow daffodil is coming through the snow. Love like the yellow daffodil, it touches all I know. Chorus. Ring for the yellow daffodil, a flower in the snow. Ring for the yellow daffodil, and tell them what I know. Chorus. Final Chorus: All shall be well, Ibm telling you, Let the winter come and go. All shall be well again, I know. Hugs, Ashara ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 20:32:47 EDT From: BigWaltinSF@aol.com Subject: (sjc) Uncanny coincidence, and stickin' around I've got one of those 5-cd players with a random setting. You never know which of the ~60 songs will play next. I've loading up jonis five at a time. The lastest group contains CMRS. The last three times I hit random, *all three times* the first song was Tea Leaves Prophecy (Lay Down Your Arms), and the lines "...this world is shattered/The wise are mourning --/The fools are joking..." resonate for me. A day or two I posted a suggestion ("I second that emotion") that basically repeated the theme of other postings that we "lay down our arms" and cool the political postings and personal attacks for a while. Someone politely and respectfully suggested to me that if I feel overwhelmed, that I scroll past the offending postings, or subscribe to the Joni Only list instead. I hope s/he didn't think I was suggesting censorship -- I was overwhelmed with what was going on in the world, not with the jmdl!! Anyway, the point was well taken. I have spent the last two days seriously considering whether I should go to Joni Only. But I feel like I've gotten to know many of you from your postings, the wonderful descriptions of the Jonifest , and quite a few sweet, supportive notes to me from various jmdlers. So I'll stick around for a while. My best to all of you in these bizarre, heartbreaking times. As I mentioned in a posting a week or so ago, I use music, prominently Joni, to heal myself both psychically and physically. Maybe I'll just do that for a while, and lurk; but don't bet on it: "I'm always talking--chicken squawking..." peace, walt ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 20:31:17 EDT From: PMcfad@aol.com Subject: marcel - njc i've just gotten current with all the digests. i have a few thoughts. 1. marcel is a cyber rapist. he has scared me several times. i stopped all correspondance with him over a year and a half ago. he's over powering, dominating, and controlling with his email. i read how he is so nice and talented in person. but consistantly, he broke the rules. sent private emails after people said NO. and that is arrogant and that sucks. he's a cyber rapist. he doesn't respect people's requests. to not say that would be dishonest. les did the right thing. 2. patrick leader has again coined my number one phrase for 2002, as he did in 2001. and he has excellent instincts. consistantly. 3. jangyn gets the number two phrase with....."it's like getting felt up on public transportation." so much with so few words. you must show us more of yourself jan. but then you'd not be so mysterious. 4. paz. paz has a pure heart. i've read his texts for years. at the same time, it's unreasonable to expect people in a war zone to be able to only talk about niceties. that does not compute. you can't take the bad away from the good, to make things "nice". it's a nobel idea. but not realistic. we are whole beings, and we don't separate easily. maybe naieve is most accurate. nonetheless, to be naieve today is to be beautiful. so paz, please don't change. but please look away from the ugly. people need to be whole. end of that. 5. had to drive from chicago to norfolk yesterday because of the airlines being closed. high point of the drive was hearing a song on public radio and saying out loud...i love that chick...she's edgy. only to find out it was one...rory block? anyway, i've seen her name on the list before. very hot and edgy. loved her. 6. this was a bad fucking week. pat ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2001 #404 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?