From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2001 #403 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Thursday, September 13 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 403 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: To Michael Paz and everyone else too (NJC) ["J. R. Mills" ] Re: pretty lies...(NJC) [colin ] Today in Joni History: September 13 [les@jmdl.com] NJC - The Third Option ["shane mattison" ] RE: pretty lies...(NJC) ["Deb Messling" ] Re: Paz (NJC) [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: Paz (NJC) [colin ] (NJC) Nostradamus 1654 ["Lori R. Fye" ] Re: colin, debra, marcel, oh my! (NJC) ["Lori R. Fye" ] Thanks MG [Anne Sandstrom ] Re: (NJC) Nostradamus 1654 -- OOPS ["Lori R. Fye" ] Re: To Michael Paz and everyone else too (NJC) [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: laugh and sing and play music (njc) [Jerry Notaro ] DED ["Laurent Olszer" ] US Crisis: What to tell your kids (NJC) [TerryM2222@aol.com] Helping Your Child Cope With The Terrorism (NJC) [TerryM2222@aol.com] an apology (njc) [Anne Sandstrom ] Re: Eerie [IVPAUL42@aol.com] NPR sets the tragedy to "Hejira" [Don Rowe ] Re: Helping Your Child Cope With The Terrorism (NJC) [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: DED [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Personal attacks vs ideological debate - FOR EVERYONE [Bruyere ] Collective prayer? (NJC) ["Bree Mcdonough" ] NJC - eerie etc. ["Norma Meatheringham" ] Re: Helping Your Child Cope With The Terrorism (NJC) ["Sybil Skelton" ] RE: (NJC) Nostradamus 1654 ["Chris Marshall" ] RE: Personal attacks vs ideological debate - FOR EVERYONE ["Chris Marshal] Re: To Michael Paz and everyone else too (NJC) [Dflahm@aol.com] Tonight, a vigil (NJC) ["Lori R. Fye" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 23:02:39 -0700 From: "J. R. Mills" Subject: Re: To Michael Paz and everyone else too (NJC) Debra, Thank you for the sensitivity and sincerity of this apology. I've always admired the openess and honesty of your posts, even as I marvel at how well, how intelligently, they're written. That you could send such a heartfelt retraction is becoming of all the other attributes I've come to appreciate and respect in you. I know the stress you're under in NYC is immeasurable, Debra. We all are affected, but nothing compares with the post-traumatic stress of being there, literally breathing it. The accounts I'm hearing from all my friends in Manhattan are nothing short of horrific. I spoke to Alison on her cell tonight as she makes her way by truck from NYC to Utah with a friend. She was in Ohio...Toledo. She couldn't hold back tears describing how she was affected on the morning of the 11th before she left the City. She's still very, very shaken and her emotions run the gamut. Anyway. You are so worthy of forgiveness...I won't hesitate. Actually, I can't wait to party in person with you and Paz and all my jmdl friends in happier days, which surely will come, although tonight it seems they're still a ways away. - -Julius np: "Amazing Grace" acappella on CNN > Michael, > > I have been rougher on you than you deserve and I'm very sorry for that. > > > So please be patient while I sort some things out and the stress of the > events in NYC lessen a bit, and know for now that even though I've > disagreed with you on a couple of points recently, and will perhaps > still disagree once I've thought things over, I've never thought badly > of you and am truly sorry that I've treated you so harshly. > > And to other listmembers too... my message today was certainly not one > of my finest. Please forgive me for assaulting you all in that way. > > Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 09:39:08 +0200 From: "Mike Pritchard" Subject: Re: terrorist attacks NJC Don Rowe wrote: >The next day, it was learned that President Truman had >authorized the use of, and delivered 2 Atomic weapons >over Hiroshima & Nagasaki... >The Japanese surrendered ... my father's troop >transport turned around and headed back to San >Fransisco harbor. Don, I'm glad your father survived WWII. I'm happy to hear that he refused to carry a weapon, and I'm delighted that you're here with us today. However, I have two comments. If 'delivered' is a euphemism for 'dropped' or 'exploded', then your statement is just plain wrong. Hiroshima was destroyed on August 6th and Nagasaki was bombed 3 days later, NOT both bombs 'the next day'. This does make a difference. > So I must salute the pilot of Enola Gay. Otherwise, I > would not be here to post this. So you're here but half a million died. Don't you see this remark as a tiny bit selfish? Do the math. Respectfully, Mike. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 09:11:19 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: pretty lies...(NJC) What courage you have Ric. I was molved reading this. The world and what happens to us stinks, but the love and courage you show in the face of it shows us all how human beings can be despite it all. with love colin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 04:05:03 -0400 From: les@jmdl.com Subject: Today in Joni History: September 13 On September 13 in Joni Mitchell History: 1994: From Wally's Bio Page: Larry Klein drags Joni out to a small club in the L.A. area that's generally utilized by acts trying to get a record contract. There she performed a short set for the surprised audience. - ------------------------ Search the "Today" database: http://www.jmdl.com/today ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 04:05:25 -0600 From: "shane mattison" Subject: NJC - The Third Option War against land-locked Afghanistan has been cited by intelligence sources as extremely unlikely. The line of supply would have to cut across a host country to get there, for starters. Unless Sadam Hussein is behind the attack on the U.S., we are likely to see the U.S. move toward a conflict policy which is more similar to Israel's, involving commando raids upon the perpetrators no matter what borders they hide behind: << Washington may well be headed for a third option. Declaring a "war" on fundamentalist militants both avoids the problems of naming a specific national sponsor and allows Washington a broader mandate to tackle current and potential threats to the United States. And, similar to the "war on drugs," the war on terrorism would enlist the help of nations around the globe -- when convenient for U.S. policy interests.>> Such a global war on potential threats would require the substantial involvement of U.S. intelligence agencies and Special Forces in defining foreign policy initiatives. During the Cold War, clandestine operations and support of democratically questionable regimes were tolerated in the interest of blocking the spread of Communism. Now, similar actions may well become more common against the widespread threat from extremists.>><> To maybe help somewhat with those of you who are fearing a major war like as known in the 20th century. Still, not a rosy prognosis. May we all find interior peace and strength. Shane ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 06:20:57 -0400 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: RE: pretty lies...(NJC) I've been worried about the little kids, because there's no way to credibly tell them that it couldn't happen to them. Kids aren't stupid. And no matter what you tell them to your face, they'll be listening to your grownup conversations when you least expect it, and they'll hear YOUR anxiety. In my New York bedroom community, they didn't tell the students what was happening. Instead, they held impromptu "social studies" classes in which each kid had to say where they were from and where their parents worked. Then they told the kids they had been working so hard this year (all two weeks, right?) that they could just watch movies all afternoon -- while the teachers tried to sort out each kid's fate. Fortunately, I've only seen one tragedy once-removed, so far, but like Patrick said, I don't expect that figure to hold. - ----------------------------------- Deb Messling =^..^= - ----------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 06:38:14 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: Paz (NJC) In a message dated 13/09/01 04:55:32 GMT Daylight Time, KakkiB@worldnet.att.net writes: << You have always been one of my favorite people on the list and I have admired in principle that you have courage to vigorously support and defend a friend. However, you are egregiously wrong in your assessment of Michael Paz. You are right - you do not know him well. Not your fault - but to those of us who do know him, we cannot let this one lay here. I'm not going to belabor here all the reasons why Paz is not the person you think he is - he needs no detailed defense. Please, please do not make snap assumptions of people when you do not know them or what they may or may not have done or not done. Thank you, Kakki >> Dear Kakki, I understand your anger at my post; I had second thoughts about it myself, and will do my best to explain what I wrote and apologise where appropriate. I've had the beginnings of private correspondence with Paz, which I hope will conclude amicably. If my post has made you or anyone else think I regard him as the villain of the piece, I am truly sorry, and I don't blame anyone but me for that. [Paz, I guess you'll read this, and it may partly answer some of your questions, though I will still reply to your post to me yesterday] One of the difficulties with this is that a lot of it is about Marcel, and I don't want to drag him back into it any more than I have to, and about some of the reactions to the events in America, which I similarly don't want to go into. However, I can't think of a way of not talking about those things, as it establishes the context; so please bear with me through that bit. In a nutshell: I was truly appalled by his conduct towards Debra, and raised a voice of protest against it, as did quite a number of listers. I know beyond any reasonable doubt that it was a sustained campaign of harrassment. I felt Marcel's refusal to accept any of the objections raised against him about this behaviour was beyond the pale, and I felt the more people spoke up the better, not because I wanted everyone to give him a good kicking, but because I thought the more people objected, the more chance there was that he might accept that he was out of line and, more to the point, stop doing it. I never said that Paz was endorsing abusive behaviour, or that he was a bad person; I still don't, and at the risk of sounding pious I have always thought he was one of the great stars of the list, as of course you are (you already know that). I did feel he stopped short of condemning it, for whatever reasons - and I didn't try to impugn his reasons - when it might have made a difference. I know how much Marcel respects Paz. You may say it's not my place to expect anyone to condemn someone else's behaviour, and I guess it isn't - but I did it respectfully in my initial post to him, as I'm sure he would accept. Then came that post from Marcel in which he used the atrocities in America as further sticks with which to bash Debra (and Colin and me). Debra lost her temper completely and lashed out, which I thought was understandable, given how close she was to the disaster area, and what she was already having to hold regarding the situation with Marcel - however, she lashed out at Paz, which was bang out of order, and I was wrong to defend it. [I see that Debra has now apologised for that] I know folks must be weary of this debate, but your post deserved a response, and I hope this response will not be seen as fanning the flames, but as an attempt to patch things up. Kind regards, Azeem NP: PJ Harvey - This Wicked Tongue ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 12:16:56 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: Paz (NJC) Thank you Azeem. I agree with your well written points. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 04:47:13 -0700 (PDT) From: "Lori R. Fye" Subject: (NJC) Nostradamus 1654 A longtime friend sent the following to me. Can we organize an immediate Emergency JoniFest? -Lori - ----- ----- ----- In the City of God there will be a great thunder, Two brothers torn apart by Chaos, while the fortress endures, the great leader will succumb, "The third big war will begin when the big city is burning on the 11th day of the 9th month that two metal birds would crash into two tall statues in the new city...and the world will ed soon after" - - Nostradamus 1654 two brothers = WTC Towers fortress = Pentagon great leader = Bush or USA big city / new city = New York The flights that were Highjacked were numbered as follows: 11 = 11 September 9+3 = 12 September 1+7+5 = 13 September 7+7 = 14 September Hopefully this is a coincidence and the terrorists can't add, but if this is corect there will either be acts of terrorism every day for the next few days of a grand event on the last day. 9.11.01 - Tragic day; not only is 911 scary enought but 01 is the country code for the Middle East. Take a look at two Flights: 81 Passengers 9 Flight Attendants 2 Pilots 8+1 = 9 9+2 = 11 911 56 Passengers 7 Flight Attendants 2 Pilots 5+6 = 11 7+2 = 9 911 inverted ~ __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 05:18:58 -0700 (PDT) From: "Lori R. Fye" Subject: Re: colin, debra, marcel, oh my! (NJC) > i just wanted to say that you're all full of shit > and still you're all right. go figure. Wally! LOL!! We sure are, aren't we?? : D Lori in MD ~ __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 08:20:54 -0400 From: Anne Sandstrom Subject: Thanks MG Your post was so honest and eloquent, I just have to thank you for sharing your experiences and thoughts. I'm so relieved your family is ok. Oh, and you may get a small chuckle out of the fact that I took a nap at this year's JoniFest and someone apparently snapped a photo as proof... Well, someone had to be caught napping :-) lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 05:21:21 -0700 (PDT) From: "Lori R. Fye" Subject: Re: (NJC) Nostradamus 1654 -- OOPS > This has been debunked. That's what happens when I don't read all of my digests before passing things on ... sorry 'bout that. (And relieved, too!) Lori in MD ~ __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 08:38:40 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: To Michael Paz and everyone else too (NJC) <> I can only echo what Julius said in his typically eloquent fashion. Debra, when I read your original post, I knew immediately that it came from the depths of emotional and physical exhaustion that I will hopefully never know. I knew that you would sense the cruelty of your words, and I knew that you would apologize in a non-condescending and unpatronizing way. What more can I say about my admiration and (macho butch) love for Michael Paz? I actually called him last night, which doesn't sound like a big deal but how many JMDLer's have ever gotten phone calls from me? Not many as I'm such a cheap bastard! But I felt Michael hurting, and I had to deal with that. I hope now I can feel the grace and healing doing its job. Bob NP: Patricia Barber, "I Fall in Love Too Easily" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 08:43:33 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: laugh and sing and play music (njc) Richard Goldman wrote: > Tonight, Wednesday, I went to the San Francisco Symphony, Michael > Tilson Thomas, conducting (what would have been last nights > programme, but . . was cancelled), Mahler's "Tragic" Symphony #6. > How appropos. > Before the performance, he spoke, and said with all due respect and > honor for the victims of the devastating tragedies in our country, > musicians across the country must and will continue to make music, > for its power to remind us all of our human connection: the great > power of music. > THen he led the orchestra in the National Anthem, as we all stood, > and remained standing for a long few minutes of silence, before he > began the magnificent Mahler's 6th. > In the spirit of this thread, I thought I would add this experience I > had tonight. Richard, I knew Michael when I sang with Schola Cantorum and he was the director of the Buffalo Philharmonic. He is a wonderful man. Thank you for sharing. np: Cher - Love Can Build a Bridge ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 08:59:31 -0400 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Re: laugh and sing and play music (njc) > > THen he led the orchestra in the National Anthem, as we all stood, > > and remained standing for a long few minutes of silence, before he > > began the magnificent Mahler's 6th. > > In the spirit of this thread, I thought I would add this experience I > > had tonight. Mahler's 6th is my favorite symphony...in light of everything it must have been very moving. Thanks for sharing. Victor Victor Johnson http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson "Velveteen rabbits and moonbeams, Come when you lay down your head. While you are sleeping, they kiss you and tell you, That you are the reason the sun lights the sky." Scarlet-V. Johnson ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 15:06:19 +0100 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: miscellaneous NJC > Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 18:29:39 -0500 > From: "Dolphie Bush" > Subject: laurent njc > > To Laurent. I didn't like that particular post that you made but I > appreciated the tone of the last one and I want to say that I hold no ill will > towards you. Like I said, I am a strong supporter of Israel and I will keep > my feelings about the Palestinians to myself. I am sorry for anything that I > might have said, even if I did feel it. I didn't have to say it, or post it. > I came here because I thought that I would find people above the average > crowd, above those things that other people do that make me feel so > disheartened. I will give you another chance if you give me one. As a matter > of fact, I will give you more than one. I believe in forgiveness and saying I > am sorry. A new start. Mack > > ------------------------------ Thanks mate. I wasn't offended because I could feel your original post was sincere and from your heart. Between you and I, you did say something right: "that I have psychological problems that transcend the issues". No one's perfect, but I'm aware of it! As John Van Tiel said, "truth" is relative. I share your feeling about coming to this list to find people above average. That's why I've taken the time to answer most posts. For a while I got a little disappointed but not anymore. COLIN, yes of course all children are innocent by nature. I respect you loathing violence. I'm only saying that it's a necessary evil when your survival is at stake. "Never again" is our motto since the Holocaust. Also, I believe Israelis have a higher moral standard than many other nations, and they don't ENJOY killing children and civilians. Of course there are pimps and crooks and murderers in Israel, just like in any other state. I'm not completely dreaming. If Israelis wanted to, it's pretty obvious they could inflict much more damage. Yes I know, "One is too many" as you said before. But what else can they do? Like Rabbi Harold Kushner said on CNN's Larry King last night: "we (meaning Americans) are all Israelis now. We know what it feels to deal with terrorist attacks, which have been going on for 53 years over there." Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 15:18:28 +0100 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: DED " LORI wrote; > I find it interesting/ironic that the Joni lyrics that seem to be quoted > most in the aftermath of this terror come from the album that so many on > the list say they dislike the most: Dog Eat Dog. > > "Oh these times, these times > Oh these changing times > Change in the heart of all mankind > Oh these troubled times" > > Love to all, > Lori > (a long-time DED fan) > ~ Absolutely. When DED came out I had just graduated from the school of hard knocks and I couldn't believe the similarities with my own experience at the time. Unfortunately, DED themes are here to last. Being relatively new to the list, I'd like to know why so many people dislike it? Laurent (another long-time DED fan) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 09:17:02 EDT From: TerryM2222@aol.com Subject: US Crisis: What to tell your kids (NJC) Hi, In light of the terrifying events happening in the US, I thought I'd send some resources for those of you who have kids or work with kids. This link has an excellent article under "Helpful Resources", titled Helping Children Cope With Tuesdaybs Acts of Terrorism: http://www.nasponline.org/NEAT/crisis_0911.html In my next email will be an article written by a colleague of mine that may be helpful as well. Hope this helps, Terry www.addconsults.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 09:18:19 EDT From: TerryM2222@aol.com Subject: Helping Your Child Cope With The Terrorism (NJC) From a child psychologist: Hi Everyone: I wanted to pass along a parenting article I wrote yesterday in response to the horrors in New York and Washington. It's my small contribution to helping parents help their children cope with the news. Helping Your Child Cope With The Terrorism Of September 11th Dr. Steven Richfield The recent terrorist attack has rattled our collective psyches and shattered our childrenbsb belief in the safety of our country. Depending upon their age and personality, children have differing needs to talk and learn about the events of September 11th. As a general rule, elementary-aged kids perceive life in narrower terms, preferring to focus on the immediate moments rather than the past or future. Thus the youngsters will have less need to talk and ask questions. In contrast, middle schoolers and older teens are likely to pursue a deeper understanding of the meanings and implications since their cognitive abilities thirst for answers to such horrific acts of violence. But even these developmental distinctions can fade in the wake of personality and predisposing factors. For example, a normally anxious and reflective 8 year old may need to process these events with parents more thoroughly than a detached and emotionally flat adolescent. So whatbs a parent to do? The following points are offered for your consideration with the caveat that your own knowledge of your child can be your best guide: _ Supervise and manage the flow of information. Most parents are all too familiar with the emotional impact of the violent pictures that flash across the television after tragedies that take a human toll. Multiply that impact by ten and you have an idea of how the pictures of September 11th may effect some children. Therefore, if you decide to allow your child to watch any news broadcasts, sit by their side and periodically ask about their thoughts and feelings. For many children, the pictures have greater impact because they can be replayed in their minds whereas the words remain on an auditory level. Misinformation is another peril to consider. As children discuss these events among their friends and peers, they may hear deliberate falsifications or distortions of the truth. Prepare them for these possibilities and encourage them to reveal what theybve heard so that you can help them separate fact from fiction. _ Prepare for emotional fallout. Anger, fear, frustration, confusion, worry, shock, anxiety, and so many other emotions too numerous to mention, are going to surface across the landscape of America. Help children understand the links between what they are feeling and what happened, as one middle schooler told his mother, bThis never happened in my life before, I feel like I have no control over what is going on.b When beliefs about the safety of air travel, tourist attractions, and life in America are so quickly altered, children are likely to ask some of the same questions that we ask ourselves, bWhat if it happened when we were there? What if we were on that plane?b Parents can explain how normal it is to have these questions but the answers are too painful to think about. Suggest that children turn their questions into some form of helping behavior for those who have been personally effected by the tragedies. _ Be ready for the really tough questions. Suicidal terrorists hijacking domestic airplanes in order to kill large numbers of American civilians may have once been considered an bunspeakable actb but now must be discussed with our children, when appropriate. If your child is mature enough to have this conversation, be ready to attempt to make sense out of it for him/her, no matter how much it reeks of senselessness. One way is to start the discussion by speaking of how peoplebs beliefs can be so strong and one-sided that they act like blindfolds and make them feel justified in taking whatever action might fulfill their objectives. Point out the much greater margin of safety that still remains in their lives no matter how much their bemotional selvesb may feel otherwise.Suggest that it might help them to share some of their feelings with trusted friends, or alternately, invite a few friends and parents over to discuss how the incidents are effecting everyone. This can help your child recognize the benefit of expressing their feelings so that they donbt become internalized in the form of anxiety or acted out in anger. _ Translate the previously inconceivable. What your children learn in the coming days and weeks will be puzzling and burdensome to carry in their hearts and minds. Perhaps they will hear officials such as the President speak of freedom, punishment, and other loaded issues. One of our jobs is to place these statements in terms they can understand. Depending upon their age and readiness, point out cause and effect, lessons to be learned, and how different philosophies sometimes lead to conflict. Some parents may use these events as an opportunity to supply correct information about the larger issue of terrorism before kids come to conclusions based upon fear and misinformation. Dr. Steven Richfield is a child psychologist in Plymouth Meeting, PA. He can be contacted at 610-275-0178 or director@parentcoachcards.com www.addconsults.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 09:27:37 -0400 From: Anne Sandstrom Subject: an apology (njc) I'd like to apologize to the list for not keeping my angry post to Laurent private, not to mention forgetting to label it NJC. There was no need to add to the negative vibe on this list. I'm sorry for that. The rest of this is kind of long and boring. Feel free to skip it. I just need to write it down... I believe I am still in physical shock. It's similiar to what I experienced as a teenager whenever there was a fire in my neighborhood. (The issue was racism and the weapon was arson.) On more than one occasion I was paralyzed with fear as smoke from a fire in a neighboring building burned. I've watched some firemen being blown out of windows and others on ladders, engulfed in flames. I even opened my own front door one night to find a fireman standing there, weilding an ax, ready to break the door down - even though it was 'just a false alarm.' We used to find entire books of matches partially burned outside the bedroom window - left by arsonists. For two years, I slept in my clothes every night, so I could get out quickly without having to get dressed. I watched well over 50 fires burn in that time. Did you know you can taste smoke before you can smell it? At least, if you're sensitive to it, you can. Did you know a car horn beeps intermittently when the insulation burns off the wires and that it's impossible to duplicate that sound any other way? Do you know that for a normal fire, it takes about 2 days for the water pressure to return to normal? Did you know that there are people known as "sparkies" who listen to fire bands and go watch fires and firemen at work as a kind of hobby? Anyway, I used to shake and had to watch each fire until it was completely doused. That's exactly what this feels like. When will this fire be doused? Blood Black Night Smothering in damp night air He takes the long way home He climbs the stairs of deep despair Heavy heels hit crumbling stone He shakes the rusted raiing loose On his way out to the ledge Stands ready like an unlit fuse Out here on the edge In the blood black night Where dreams die so young To the needle or the knife And the pain of life Gone wrong He sits out on the fire escape And watches shadows pass He hurls his empty bottles down Just to hear the breaking glass Says he's already doing time He's up to twenty years He's itching to commit the crime To get him out of here In the blood black night Where dreams die so young To the needle or the knife And the pain of life Gone wrong And in some old forgotten rooms Abandoned to the rats An angry hand spills gasoline And drops a lighted match And all traces of life inside Are stripped bare by the fire Except for metal, stone and bone And a few thin threads of wire In the blood black night Where dreams die so young To the needle or the knife And the pain of life Gone wrong lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 09:47:34 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Eerie In a message dated 9/13/01 12:31:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, the irresponsible harris@ixpres.com rumormongered: > "In the city of york there will be a great collapse, > 2 brothers torn apart by chaos > while the fortress falls the great leader will succumb > third big war will begin when the big city is burning" > - NOSTRADAMUS (1654) (One wonders how a guy who died in 1566 could have written an item identified as being penned in 1654 anyway.) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 07:00:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: NPR sets the tragedy to "Hejira" This morning, during a news item about the impromptu candlelight vigils being held in NYC & DC ... NPR's "Morning Edition" used what I imagine is a cover of "Hejira". Solo electric guitar and bass opening figures ... anybody recognize the performance? Is it one we have archived? Don Rowe ===== Visit me anytime at http://www.mp3.com/donrowe __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 10:03:07 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Helping Your Child Cope With The Terrorism (NJC) <> Thanks for sharing that info, Terry... I have a teenager, so I think it's easier to be frank & I think they have a better sense of understanding of these kinds of issues. However, I think that more importantly than what we tell our kids, ultimately what matters is how we LIVE OUR LIVES. If we live in fear, then what we SAY is irrelevant. If we talk love but live hate, it will fall on deaf ears. Kids are always much smarter than we give them credit for. Bob NP: The Who, "Happy Jack" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 10:10:11 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: DED <> Without going into too much detail Laurent, I'll say that I think she allowed herself to get sucked in to some production that didn't bring out the best in her songs. Some great songs got buried and lost in studio gimmickry. Also, the songs she co-wrote with Klein forced her to pair music to a lyrical structure she was not used to. She comments in interviews that Klein writes in much choppier word structure than she does, and some of the songs feel that "force". But I don't throw out the dog with the bathwater. DED has some marvelous moments, and some great songs that Joni recasts in an unplugged fashion on other recordings which showcases their greatness. Bob NP: The Who, "A Quick One, While He's Away" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 10:14:06 -0400 From: Bruyere Subject: Re: Personal attacks vs ideological debate - FOR EVERYONE I read these posts .... I don't respond for my own reasons. If people would just stop bickering here. Get off your computer and go watch the replays of those poor people who jumped from those buildings. I shudder with horror every time I even think about it. Kakki is right. We need to keep talking about what happened on Tuesday. I will write more when my emotions calm down. I am so happy to hear that many people I know who live and work in NYC are safe. Many people are suffering right now. I gave blood ..... I still feel helpless. Love to all ... Heather ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 10:18:47 -0400 From: Bruyere Subject: Re: NJC Re: Personal attacks vs ideological debate - FOR EVERYONE I am glad I picked up this CD from the give- away table! It is an awsome CD! We have been listening to it over and over again. Good work Hell! Heather At 05:06 PM 9/12/01 -0400, SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: ><> > >I nominate Hell...she did a SUPER job with her Kiwi Compilation artwork! > >Bob > >NP: Who, "In A Hand Or A Face" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 08:26:23 -0600 From: "Norma Meatheringham" Subject: Eerie and Nostradamus - linkage to this was sent to me yesterday... Norma, check out for a slightly different version of this quote, as well as an apparently authoritative denial that it is a quote from Nostradamus..... Sure looks like the quote you rc'd on the net had a bunch of extra stuff gratuitously inserted, which is pretty much par for the course in this area. - - ever the skeptic, Scott. But geez, what a mess! I can see our civil liberties, even civilisation, going by the wayside..... Not immediately, but the next such attack, definitely..... On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Norma Meatheringham wrote: > this was forwarded to me this afternoon. > does anyone else have this? I haven't read Nostradamus since grade > school... > we can hope this is not to be... > such sadness when HATE begets such actions. > ttfn - moi > > Nostradamus' prediction on WW3: > > "In the year of the new century and nine months, > >From the sky will come a great King of Terror... > The sky will burn at forty-five degrees. > Fire approaches the great new city..." > "In the city of york there will be a great collapse, > 2 twin brothers torn apart by chaos while the > fortress falls the great leader will succumb > third big war will begin when the big city is burning" > > - NOSTRADAMUS ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 07:50:28 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Goodbye Dear friends, Those of you who have been around for a while know that I'm someone who has NEVER approved of political diatribes or personal attacks on the list. I don't believe that is what our community is for. However, I kept silent during the latest spate, until now. It is difficult to conceive that, while we try to deal with the horror that has been unleashed upon us, some of you have the time and energy to continue these rantings. Scroll? Delete? I don't think so. I don't want this crap coming into my mailbox anymore. As of now, I'm unsubscribing. Perhaps I'll be back in a while. To all my dear friends on the list, I love you all, and keep you in my thoughts and prayers. - -- ######################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://www.tinkersown.com "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://www.scdh.org "The Living Tradition Concert Series" http://www.thelivingtradition.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 07:50:48 -0700 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Collective prayer? (NJC) I wrote to another lister about having a JMDL collective prayer. I hope people on the list will join me. How about 5pm today? Just stop for a few seconds even and pray. It would be a beautiful thing if all 820 I believe, would participate! The Best to All of YOU. Bree >From: cvickery@danielrealty.com >To: "Bree Mcdonough" >Subject: Re: two-way street NJC >Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 11:20:31 -0500 > > > ><at a specific time? What do you think?>> >I think you're BRILLIANT! Propose it to the list, and count me >in! >Thank you. > > >> > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 08:51:13 -0600 From: "Norma Meatheringham" Subject: NJC - eerie etc. oops! keep forgetting to add the tag - sorry!! I also did not read all my mail before replying to the Eerie and Nostradamus messages. heartfelt aches are felt for all who are affected, directly and indirectly, by the events recently. I'm primarily a lurker and now will go back to reading and deleting... finally, a last thot: "A true pacifist is one who is capable of dealing immeasurable damage but chooses not to when confronted with provocation." - - Morihei Ueshiba ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Most of us go to our grave with our music still inside of us. Happiness comes through doors you didn't even know you left open. ~ Author Unknown Always put yourself in others' shoes. If you feel that it hurts you, it probably hurts the other person, too. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 09:52:13 -0500 From: "Sybil Skelton" Subject: Re: Helping Your Child Cope With The Terrorism (NJC) Terry, I'd like to add my thanks to you for passing along this kind of information. Yesterday morning, the "day after", I was confronted by my 11 year old daughter asking me if the Attack on America was over. I'd like to strangle the media sometimes - kids can take words so literally. I tried to reassure my daughter that the attacks were only in a few places thousands of miles from our small Texas town, and that we were in no imminent danger. As a parent, I can always use some help - these danged kids didn't come with owner's manuals. Sybil _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 07:56:11 -0700 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: blackness, blackness draggin' me down >From: cvickery@danielrealty.com >Reply-To: cvickery@danielrealty.com >To: joni@smoe.org >Subject: blackness, blackness draggin' me down >Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 17:33:35 -0500 > >. >this forum is best used to shore each other up, not tear each >other apart. >and no matter what our intentions are, i think we've done more >than our share of tearing each other apart on this day. Thanks Cindy, for reminding us. I'll join you for that beer sometime. Thanks, Bree _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 16:56:12 +0200 From: "Mike Pritchard" Subject: terrorism2 NJC (longish) I had three responses to my post about Hiroshima and NYC/DC. One (off-list) thanking me for putting the writer's thoughts into words; one telling me that I should be ashamed of myself, and the third was somewhere in the middle. I am not ashamed of what I said although I will repeat here that it wasn't my intention to hurt or insult anyone. If anyone feels insulted or angry about my post, then I failed to make absolutely clear the point that I was trying to make. Let me try again. Mack said (although the parenthetical additions are mine, for clarification) >I am not happy about the people in those cities (Hiroshima and Nagasaki) but they (the >pilots) had no choice as far as I can see and I am aghast that you can now try to look >back and somehow make fun or criticize the choices they made then. Mack, I did not 'make fun' of anything; 'fun' was the last thing on my mind. Please re-read the post and tell me where I made fun of anything. Raising pertinent questions is not 'making fun'. My point is basically about objectivity and subjectivity, thrown in with a lot of ideology. What the Japanese did during WWII was terrible, inhuman, barbaric, and all the other things that Mack mentioned. Objectively. No argument there. I know that many people, myself included, think that apologies from the Japanese government are too little and too late but I believe it shows that they now fully accept the brutality of their wartime actions. The bombing of Hiroshima ended the war against Japan (which was nearly over anyway) and I guess that the majority of the Allied forces and people of the free world subjectively feel that the Hiroshima bomb was justified by the result it achieved. (Nagasaki, I believe, was unnecessary and gratuitous). I doubt very much that the civilian population of those cities and that country feels the same. Subjectively, I guess, the Japanese people would consider the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki atrocities too. One event, two contradictory viewpoints. Maybe it is 'objectively' true that the war ended because of the bombs, but this does not affect the subjective viewpoints that many people have because their political ideology has been drummed into them from an early age. If you were brought up to hate the USA and all it stands for then of course you're going to dance and cheer if they suffer from your aggression. If you were brought up to love the USA and all it stands for then of course you're going to be furious and outraged when your country suffers from other people's aggression. Similarly, if you've been brought up to love/hate the Palestinians, or Israelis, or the Iraqis, or Catholics or whoever, then of course you're going to celebrate your victories or mourn your defeats. It doesn't make it right, but is it not easy to understand how people can be seen as barbaric and yet still see themselves as heroic? Fanatics are not rational people. Don't expect them to act as you yourself would act, or think like you yourself think. Mack said: >There is absolutely no reason or justification for comparing the men of our military in >world war II to the monsters who performed yesterday. Shame on you. I say, "I accept that my comments are unjustifiable 'from your point of view'". I am not, and was not, comparing them; I'm saying that a case (however 'twisted') could be made for comparing them, or even that the WWII bombers are worse than Tuesday's attackers, but I don't want to play the numbers game. I agree with you 100 per cent that the people who planned and carried out yesterday's acts are monsters, from your point of view and mine. But from other people's points of view (not my own, I repeat) these terrorists were not monsters but heroes and martyrs. All I am saying is that we have our point of view and they have theirs. It's futile to argue who's right and who's wrong, or who's good and who's evil. That gets us nowhere. It all depends on where you stand. A final, related point which perhaps needs to be made again is that the way the USA sees itself and its world role is not universally shared. Obviously. Not everyone sees the USA as the 'good guy' any more: ask US citizens who have lived or served abroad, they are usually amazed by the criticism they hear. There are other viewpoints which may objectively be unjustifiable and abhorrent to the USA but all people base their actions on their ideological beliefs, as THEY see the situation, subjectively, terrorists included. Sorry this is not as concise as it could be. I hope I will not have to return to this matter. Like many people, I'd also like to get back to talking about music again, it seems like years ago when we were all vicariously enjoying the jonifest through the words and pictures of the listers who were lucky enough to be there. Mike. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 16:18:36 +0100 From: "Chris Marshall" Subject: RE: (NJC) Nostradamus 1654 Lori:- > 9.11.01 - Tragic day; not only is 911 scary enought but 01 is the country > code for the Middle East. Nah, sorry, 01 is your own country code. Not that it makes the coincidences any better, mind... - --Chris (pedant mode on...) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 16:29:39 +0100 From: "Chris Marshall" Subject: RE: Personal attacks vs ideological debate - FOR EVERYONE > I read these posts .... I don't respond for my own reasons. If people > would just stop bickering here. Get off your computer and go watch the > replays of those poor people who jumped from those buildings. I shudder > with horror every time I even think about it. I, for one, was attached to my TV with bungee cord. I watched it happen on a TV at my car dealer, I came home and watched the TV until my eyes wouldn't stay open at about 1.30am our time. I spent a long time trying to get calls through to New York, to friends and list members there. I spent most of the next day watching the TV. Today I had a business meeting in a UK establishment that was at awareness level amber (second highest). I listened to the radio the whole time until my car broke en-route. I got home, and have had the radio on most of the time since. I'm about to switch the TV back on. I've lost count of the amount of times I've been close to or in tears. In the UK, I think that while we're feeling a touch less threatened (although the threat is still real: we're the USA's closest and most public ally) but probably _more_ helpless. It's hard to think of what can be done at this distance except donate to relief funds and send thoughts. If I thought giving blood would do any good, I would, but they won't have my blood anyway. (Being gay, I'm not regarded as safe. Like, cheers.) So... - --Chris ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 12:37:32 EDT From: Dflahm@aol.com Subject: Re: To Michael Paz and everyone else too (NJC) The respect and compassion you express to Debra is, I feel, completely appropriate and I hope you won't mind letting me "co-sign" it. You just said it far better than I could imagine doing myself. DAVID LAHM ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 10:12:38 -0700 (PDT) From: "Lori R. Fye" Subject: Tonight, a vigil (NJC) My first instinct was to think this is a bit hokey but what an amazing site if it works. Just a thought... _____ The strength of each and everyone of us as a cohesive, kind and loving community is what will heal the world. Even if there is violence returned to reprimand this grave injustice; LOVE and the Light of the Divine is the One and Only thing that will set us free from our own human bondage. Please, tonight, Thursday, September 13th, 2001, at 10:30 pm, east coast time, go outside your home, with your families, babies and grandparents and hold one lit candle. Imagine the strength and Love you would feel as you stood outside your home and looked down your street to see neighbors you have yet to meet, familes gathered in grief, others gathered in knowing the Light of Divinty, showing our UNITY to the world in each holding up our One simple and yet magnificent Light. PLEASE do not judge if you like this idea or not...simply pass it along to everyone on your list and let them decide...and if you get it back 100 times today GOOD! Watch the glow at 10:30! God Bless You, a fellow human being. ~ __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2001 #403 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?