From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2001 #401 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Wednesday, September 12 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 401 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- laurent njc ["Dolphie Bush" ] Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2001 #281 [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: Be kind (NJC) [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: Personal attacks on Debra Shea (lest we forget) (NJC) [AzeemAK@aol.c] Re: why not blame the Jews, NJC [colin ] Aftermath NJC [MGVal@aol.com] Re: Personal attacks vs ideological debate (NJC) Not For Shea, Azeem, and Colin [dsk ] Re: Be kind (NJC) [Les Irvin ] can't we end the pettiness?(NJC) [Relayer211@aol.com] twin towers -horrific ["Paul Headon" ] Save the Country :) [Lazyasz@aol.com] USA [Fonimitchell@aol.com] RE: Use The delete Key NJC ["jlamadoo, home account" ] Re: Aftermath NJC [AsharaJM@aol.com] RE: Use The delete Key NJC ["Daniel Ivany" ] Re: NJC Jonifest CD artwork ["hell" ] Re: Use The delete Key NJC [colin ] Re: Be kind (NJC) [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] daniel ["Dolphie Bush" ] DanielIvany RE: Use The delete Key NJC ["colin" ] NJC [Vince Lavieri ] Cricket (NJC) [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: NJC Jonifest CD artwork [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Use The delete Key NJC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Use The delete Key NJC ["Stephen Epstein" ] Re: NJC [colin ] something special going on ["Dolphie Bush" ] stephen and bob ["Dolphie Bush" ] moni joni NJC ["colin" ] Re: Personal attacks vs ideological debate - FOR EVERYONE ["Mark or Travi] Musings (NJC) ["Lori R. Fye" ] One more -- Joni content this time ["Lori R. Fye" ] today's events (9-11-01) njc ["patrick leader" ] Re: New York, New York njc ["Kakki" ] pretty lies...(NJC) [Ricw1217@aol.com] laugh and sing and play music (njc) ["Brett Code" ] Re: Use The delete Key NJC [Catherine McKay ] RE: Good and Sad Stories (NJC) ["Brett Code" ] Re: Paz (NJC) ["Kakki" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 18:29:39 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: laurent njc To Laurent. I didn't like that particular post that you made but I appreciated the tone of the last one and I want to say that I hold no ill will towards you. Like I said, I am a strong supporter of Israel and I will keep my feelings about the Palestinians to myself. I am sorry for anything that I might have said, even if I did feel it. I didn't have to say it, or post it. I came here because I thought that I would find people above the average crowd, above those things that other people do that make me feel so disheartened. I will give you another chance if you give me one. As a matter of fact, I will give you more than one. I believe in forgiveness and saying I am sorry. A new start. Mack ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 19:32:19 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2001 #281 In a message dated 12/09/01 01:16:30 GMT Daylight Time, StDoherty@aol.com writes: << All of this kinda illuminates the fact that name calling - the long hurt e-mials and all the other bullshit just isn't important. (Nor do some of us who aren't in the loop care). I hope it's the end of it. >> I agree that the trials and tribulations of this list are small beer compared to yesterday's horror. Where I don't agree is where you say that it's bullshit. The Marcel/Debra situation isn't a petty squabble about differences of opinion or ideology - it's about Marcel's repeated abuse of Debra, in ways that are in flagrant beach of both the letter and the spirit of the list's rules. I'm sorry, but in its small way I believe this DOES matter. Azeem ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 19:32:20 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: Be kind (NJC) In a message dated 11/09/01 11:41:30 GMT Daylight Time, messling@enter.net writes: << If, as another poster, implied, there is a prohibition against sending private emails against another person's will, does there come a time when this prohibition is enforced? >> I've been wondering the same thing, Deb. If it were up to me I would have no hesitation in throwing Marcel off the list for repeated, malicious, private and totally unsolicited postings, for which he has shown no remorse or even acknowledgement. If Marcel stays, he will just carry on doing it. Sad, but he will. Where's the incentive to stop if you can carry on abusing people privately (let us remember this is merely the latest, and possibly the nastiest, of a succession of similar acts) with impunity? And I would also add that I've seen Debra's response to Michael Paz. Should I be condemning that too, calling for her to be kicked off the list? Well, no, and here's why: It seems to me to be a howl of frustration at the fact that Marcel's abuse of her is being allowed to escape, and that Michael seems to be bending over backwards to avoid reprimanding Marcel for his private posts. (Michael, you and I don't know each other very well, and have never exchanged a cross word; I still find it sad that you seem to be glossing over Marcel's conduct). In short, I believe Debra was provoked. I know you will disagree Marcel, so I'll take that as read. There's also the question of the co-opting of the tragedy to further political arguments, which as I said I'm not going to comment on. At least Debra has the guts to post to the list and take the consequences. Azeem ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 19:32:17 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: Personal attacks on Debra Shea (lest we forget) (NJC) In a message dated 12/09/01 18:17:54 GMT Daylight Time, MDESTE1@aol.com writes: << I ask that Debra Shea Azeem and Colin and Patrick Leader not read this post. If they choose to do so I ask that they not comment. Lets see how well they obey anothers request since so many have stated emphatically that thats verboten to disregard someone elses requests.>> This would be laughable if it weren't so logic-defyingly obtuse. "I'm going to write a post about you (amongst other things) to the public list and if you read and/or reply to it then you are just as in the wrong as I am in mounting a remorseless, invasive campaign against someone who has repeatedly asked me not to email her off list." No, that won't wash. I AM NOT GOING TO TOUCH YOUR COMMENTS ABOUT THE DISASTER. Yes, I read the post, Marcel, as you wanted me to. And I'm replying to it, which you apparently didn't want me to. And the reason is I need to remind you, again, of how spectacularly wide of the mark you are if you think that replying to your post on list in any way equates to your abuse of Debra. Your post that was titled "Your skirt is up over your head", that one in particular. << Debra Shea contacted me first. proof delivered. She wasnt writing to the list as evidenced by her addressing me directly. She was writing to me. I responded to the above. >> She posted to the list, so that everyone could see her reply, and so as not to be engaging in private discussions with you. That you don't recognise this distinction suggests that either you have a serious blind spot on this very simple point, or you are simply pretending not to understand the distinction. << Ok you have all had your fun attacking Marcel Deste as a human being. Even my wife. Are you all proud or do you now all go and wash your hands with Patrick Leader. >> I haven't had any fun in all this. I was attacking your behaviour, not you, which you may think is the same thing, but I don't. Patrick's post was pretty strong, and it was a low blow to drag your wife into it - although he didn't actually insult her at all - he expressed pity for her and insulted you, calling you an asshole. I don't think it's big or clever to hurl abuse like that around, and I include you in that - you referred to Debra as an asshole in a private post to me a few months ago, remember? << My only "crime" has been to want to keep personal and potentially incendiary ideological debates from intruding into everyone elses life since the actual purpose of the JMDL is music not Ideological Jihads. Consideration for other people is bad. Mea cupla. >> NO, NO, NO!!! Your "crime" is to repeatedly send insulting, invasive, invective-ridden private emails to someone who has repeatedly asked you not to. I distinctly remember Debra requesting that if you have anything to say to her, you say it on the list, NOT in a private email that goes only to her and not to the list. Exactly how does that infringe your right to self-expression? << I have never called Debra Shea a bad person. Shes a Marxist ideologically but I have never called her names. Just differed with her World Views. Another of her supporters said "Im just as big a pinko Communist as you" to Ms. Shea. Is that person a cyber-terrorist. If not why not. >> Except when you called her an asshole. Yeah, that was private to me, and maybe I'm breaching a confidence here, but it was unbelievably insensitive of you to make comments like that to me, when I had already signalled to you that I didn't like the way you were talking about her. And anyway, the point isn't ONLY about name calling. You were harrassing her and filling her mailbox with hate. You may look at it as, in your words, "keeping personal and potentially incendiary ideological debates from intruding into everyone elses life" - I call it rank and cowardly abuse, conducted away from the glare of the list, where you knew it would not be tolerated - as we subsequently saw in the large number of people who objected to that post. << If Shea, Azeem, and Colin comment on this post you will know they violate all the rules they and others have attacked me for not respecting. I have categorically demanded that they delete my posts. Time for certain people to live with the rules they make or be exposed as hypocrites. >> No. You have got completely the wrong end of the stick. You just can't see it. Azeem ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 00:51:17 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: why not blame the Jews, NJC > What's the point of trying to shame Laurent? i thought his use of this tragedy to further his points was shameful. as did others, not just me. > You expressed your opinion but > you didn't pursuade anyone. I would suggest otherwise. several people were in agreement. In fact, why single me out Jim? Still think I am fascist? Still sore? > > > You are just blaming the messenger. I would say that the terrorism is > "disgusting, outrageous, cruel and mean spirited" as you put it. Laurent > didn't even do any name-calling. (Although YOU did.) Ignorance of language. Where is the name calling? I told him what i thought of his tactic. I didn't call him any names. before you write posts like this, think. There were certain posts of yours, where you certainly and boldly name called, not just in the sevral mails but in the titles too. Or is your memory that short? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 19:55:58 EDT From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Aftermath NJC Well, as some list members know, several of my family members were in or around the WTC yesterday. The closest being my nephew who took the PATH train right to the bottom of the WTC just as the first plane rammed into the tower. Fortunately, he escaped with minor injuries. My brother in law is now on the site, working with fire and rescue crews. Sadly, there is little to rescue. Although I have lived away from the metro NY area for nearly 20 years, I still consider it home. It shocks me to the core to sit and watch the news and yet I cannot tear myself away from it. I am scheduled to take a business trip to the area next week and looking at my flight arrangements notice my Newark to CA return in a different light. As I typed out that sentence, I am realizing that I am looking at EVERYTHING in a different light. I'm counting my blessings, (and I've always been a perpetual blessings counter), more than ever; I'm in love with a wonderful man, my children, albeit at times candidates for juvenile hall, are healthy and happy, my 20 year old lives away from home and does not come back with dirty laundry. My workplace does not require me to wear pantyhose. Life is good for me. And another blessing to not overlook is this list. I share a wonderful and at times mysterious kinship with many wonderful and varied list members. I know that there have been many a personal burden lightened considerably by people like Colin and Mark Scott and Rev Vince and others, including the poster trouble guy of the year, Marcel. (to be frank and honest, I have to say that I have never, even within disagreements, received anything close to insults or abuse from him). I got a lot of balm from reading John Van Thiel's terrific post. I sat anxious as I scrolled through the many personal stories, hoping to always see the "found and ok!" ending. While it's not coming out as articulate as I would like to see, (and I'm sure that constant interruptions for snacks, homework help, requests for hamsters and puppies and phone calls are wrecking their share of havoc on my thought process), I want to say thank you. Thanks to Les for creating such a great list. Thanks to Colin for always vigorously defending differences, thanks to Khakki and Bob for encouraging what they are "gently" suggesting by contributing alternative posts. Aren't we a lucky bunch? MG ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:08:11 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: Personal attacks vs ideological debate (NJC) Not For Shea, Azeem, and Colin Chris, I did not cc Marcel on this message. Looking at the email I sent to the list shows that. Trying to make it look as though I sent it to him directly, and in other messages implying that I do the same as he does, i.e., send him private emails full of insults, is ... I can't even find the word for it. The last message I sent directly to Marcel was on November 12, 2000, and I do not cc him even when responding to the list about something he has written. I've never said people are not allowed to say whatever they want to say on the list. Everyone can say onlist whatever they want to or need to and, of course, reactions onlist are valid too. Debra Shea Chris Marshall wrote: > > Marcel, > > Debra's reply went to you AND THE LIST. This not the same > as personal e-mail! Your "proof delivered" is nothing of > the sort. > > What people have repeatedly objected to are *personal* e-mails. > By that, I mean e-mail messages addressed *solely* to them. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 18:59:16 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: Re: Aftermath NJC Articulation be damned, MGVal. You made me smile. Thanks so much. Mack My workplace does not require me to wear pantyhose. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 18:16:53 -0600 From: Les Irvin Subject: Re: Be kind (NJC) At 9/12/2001 05:32 PM, AzeemAK@aol.com wrote: >If it were up to me I would have no hesitation in throwing >Marcel off the list for repeated, malicious, private and >totally unsolicited postings At times this position of list owner is a difficult, thankless, and unwanted task. My vision and goal of a free, open discussion forum is constantly tested and prodded, forcing me to reexamine my views on tolerance and moderation at nearly every turn. It is with mixed feelings that I inform everyone that this morning, Marcel was removed from the list. Now, may we please stop the arguing and start the healing? Be well, Les NP - Yael at Jonifest 2001 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:20:43 EDT From: Relayer211@aol.com Subject: can't we end the pettiness?(NJC) I don't know the details of the conflicts that the members of this list are engaging in, but in this moment of enormous destruction and tragedy, on a huge scale, can't we just put aside this petty quibbling? Is it really so important to keep it going when the world is in profound crisis? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 01:22:45 +0100 From: "Paul Headon" Subject: twin towers -horrific I have watched the horror unfold. what can I sat God bless you all in America from Paul Headon in Wales. - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.277 / Virus Database: 146 - Release Date: 05/09/2001 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:31:17 EDT From: Lazyasz@aol.com Subject: Save the Country :) Come on people come on children come on down to the glory river gonna wash you up and wash you down gonna lay the devil down Come on people come on children there's a king at the glory river and the precious king he loved the people to sing babes in the blinkin' sun sang we shall overcome! Come on people, sons and mothers Keep the dream of the two young brothers gonna take the dream and ride the dove we could build the dream with love I got fury in my soul fury's gonna take me to the glory goal in my mind I can't study war no more Save the people Save the children SAVE THE COUNTRY!! - --Laura Nyro ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:35:51 EDT From: Fonimitchell@aol.com Subject: USA Our thoughts are with you all. That's all it's possible to say. Foni Mitchell. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:45:25 -0400 From: "jlamadoo, home account" Subject: RE: Use The delete Key NJC Colin, As our former President Reagan is famous for saying, "Well, there you go again." Now you are insisting that calling someone "childish and sacrcastic is not name calling." Apparently you don't think that calling someone "hypocrical" (as written) is name calling either. Bunk. You are suggesting that Michael has engaged you in a personal attack? I can't even BEGIN to imagine where that comes from. You've been reading Michael's stuff for years, just like the rest of us. Arrogant? LOL. Are you seriously accusing Michael Paz of arrogance? LOL! You've come up with some doozies in the past so I guess this is not entirely unexpected. This ranks right up there with "the National Enquirer is a perfectly respectable news source" and the infamous "death wish post" of last year. Take a moment, will ya? Will ya post out of respect and thoughtfulness rather than out of reflex? Can we please stick to debate? Catching up, Lamadoo > Dear Micahel- re read your post and see who is thinking they are immune. > I know you have been itching to have a go, because myself and others have > dared to call your friend on his beahviour. If you are so concerned about > bad beahviour, why didn't you speak up before? > > Name calling is not my game. Saying what you wrote is childish and > sacrcastic is not name calling. > > You are being hypocrical. > > Of course I feel freee to write as I wish, I belong to this list > as much as > you do. the difftreence is, unlike you, I don't have the > arrogance you have > just displayed. > If you don't like what i write, fine, I don't expect people to. i don't > write for you. > > However, I aslo don't expect this sort of personal attack > especially from sombody who pretends to be above it! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:49:47 EDT From: AsharaJM@aol.com Subject: Re: Aftermath NJC My sweet buddy MG wrote: > my children, albeit at times candidates for juvenile hall, are healthy > and happy, my 20 year old lives away from home and does not come back with > dirty laundry. My workplace does not require me to wear pantyhose. Life is > good for me. MG, thank you so much for making me laugh at a point where I was wondering if I would ever remember how to laugh again. <> Yes, we certainly are. In the past 2 days, I "knew" when I logged to the computer there would be something there from the JMDL that would lift my spirits and soothe the pain a little. Thank you all for being here, and thank you Les for making this "home." Hugs, Ashara ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 17:57:19 -0700 From: "Daniel Ivany" Subject: RE: Use The delete Key NJC I thought, I joined Joni Mitchell discussion group. These messages are not Joni anything. Can we come up with a system to filter the Joni people from the non Joni people. >From: "jlamadoo, home account" >Reply-To: "jlamadoo, home account" >To: "_JMDL" >Subject: RE: Use The delete Key NJC >Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:45:25 -0400 > >Colin, >As our former President Reagan is famous for saying, > >"Well, there you go again." > >Now you are insisting that calling someone "childish and sacrcastic is not >name calling." Apparently you don't think that calling someone >"hypocrical" >(as written) is name calling either. Bunk. > >You are suggesting that Michael has engaged you in a personal attack? I >can't even BEGIN to imagine where that comes from. You've been reading >Michael's stuff for years, just like the rest of us. Arrogant? LOL. Are >you seriously accusing Michael Paz of arrogance? LOL! You've come up with >some doozies in the past so I guess this is not entirely unexpected. This >ranks right up there with "the National Enquirer is a perfectly respectable >news source" and the infamous "death wish post" of last year. > >Take a moment, will ya? Will ya post out of respect and thoughtfulness >rather than out of reflex? > >Can we please stick to debate? > >Catching up, >Lamadoo > > > > > Dear Micahel- re read your post and see who is thinking they are immune. > > I know you have been itching to have a go, because myself and others >have > > dared to call your friend on his beahviour. If you are so concerned >about > > bad beahviour, why didn't you speak up before? > > > > Name calling is not my game. Saying what you wrote is childish and > > sacrcastic is not name calling. > > > > You are being hypocrical. > > > > Of course I feel freee to write as I wish, I belong to this list > > as much as > > you do. the difftreence is, unlike you, I don't have the > > arrogance you have > > just displayed. > > If you don't like what i write, fine, I don't expect people to. i don't > > write for you. > > > > However, I aslo don't expect this sort of personal attack > > especially from sombody who pretends to be above it! _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 13:06:24 +1200 From: "hell" Subject: Re: NJC Jonifest CD artwork Bob wrote: > <> > > I nominate Hell...she did a SUPER job with her Kiwi Compilation artwork! Why thank you! I'd be happy to oblige. Of course, someone will have to send me the photo CD first, and advise me on the logistics..... Hell - trying to get back to normality, which is what these terrorists DON'T want. My fest report will also follow in a day or so. ____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Hell's Personal Photo Page: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/main/personal.htm Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://www.nbls.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 02:16:10 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: Use The delete Key NJC > This > ranks right up there with "the National Enquirer is a perfectly respectable > news source" and the infamous "death wish post" of last year. > Oh my dear Jim. You still don't get that was a joke do you? and that the joke is on you? My post was 'Oprah Winfrey is a Lesbian and I know it is true because I just read it your esteemed publication, The National Enquirer.' Your response was much funnier I am astonished it still is the same! There was no death wish post but in your imagination. Lets not repeat that foolishness okay? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 21:12:18 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Be kind (NJC) << Now, may we please stop the arguing and start the healing? >> Les, I just got back from the library where I checked out my first Patricia Barber CD. Does that count? :~) Bob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:10:55 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: daniel there is one daniel. It is njc. no joni content. You used it and you had joni content. all of this other business is njc. that is so people can avoid it, if they wish. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 02:24:18 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) From: "colin" Subject: DanielIvany RE: Use The delete Key NJC I undertsand it is frustrating to read so much un joni related posts. others feel the wya you do too. There are two options for you when you join this discsuuion list. One of them is that you can join the Joni Only list which means you will not get un joni posts, as long as people remember to use the NJC(no joni content )tag. we are usally p[retty good at this but this last couple of days have been a bit hairy and I guess we are forgetting. if you write to les@jmdl.com he will tell you how. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 21:15:28 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: NJC Colin, lamadoo, everyone, please shut up for a few days, at least on the back and forth shit that keeps getting posted. You and others keep trying to top each other with your stinging repartee. I like both of you but let me be very clear: I've had more than enough. As Debra has pointed, there are people dead. There is so much horror. Just quit it. Take a break for a few days. The snappy back and forth comments are more than I can bear at this time and I think that I speak for others. (the Rev) Vince ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 21:20:58 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Cricket (NJC) Dear Ashara, Here's something else I read yesterday that made me smile and gave me some hope: http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4254050,00.html Take care, Azeem ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 21:21:09 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC Jonifest CD artwork << Hell - trying to get back to normality, which is what these terrorists DON'T want. >> You're right, Hell, you're exactly SPOT ON! I just got another e-mail from a musician advertising a gig for this weekend, and apologizing for it. I quickly messaged back and declared "Don't apologize"! We have to begin to laugh and sing and play music and celebrate, otherwise HATE wins, and we can't let that happen. Not in the BIG world, not in our little world... I think also about "How The Grinch Stole Christmas" and how the Grinch couldn't steal things like hope & joy. I think about Lucinda Williams on the rampage thru cajun country, shouting out "You took my joy, I want it back!!" I think about the line in "Starman", "You people are at your best when things are at their worst". That's just the way my stupid random brain works. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 21:26:21 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Use The delete Key NJC << Can we come up with a system to filter the Joni people from the non Joni people. >> Daniel, the system exists...you should be on the "Joni Only" list or digest. The fact that you got this NJC (NO JONI CONTENT) post makes me think that you're not on the Joni only grouping. In the meantime, why curse the darkness, let's light a candle instead! When was the last time you saw Joni live? Do you remember the first time you heard a Joni song and knew that there was something *special* going on? For me it was the high school cafeteria and "Help Me". And of course, the most important thing...what's your favorite Joni cover? :~D Bob, (I guess I have to leave the NJC on...such a dilemma!!) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 21:34:02 -0400 From: "Stephen Epstein" Subject: Re: Use The delete Key NJC " And of course, the most important thing...what's your favorite Joni cover? :~D Bob, (I guess I have to leave the NJC on...such a dilemma!!)" Bob, you are cracking me up! :-) Thanks for being the one who always tries to bring it back to JM content- the reason, really, we are all here in the first place! Hope all is well, Stephen in Vancouver NP: not CNN ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 02:53:29 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: NJC You are right. Ignoring the digs and knowing when to let go are not my strong points. thanks for pointing it out. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:43:02 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: something special going on I was lying on the floor of my friend Jeff's house in Lubbock, Texas. We were stoned and listening to Rickie Lee Jones. His house was old and he and I were not interested in all that pretty house business. The ceiling had all these big white spots on it where it looked as if someone had been intending on doing something to it but never had finished. We had grand times there staring up at those spots and pondering the state of us and the state of the world . One night he put Joni on. I remember the song and the line that caught me. "the blonde in the bleachers, she flips her hair for you." I never forgot the line and even years later when I finally really discovered Joni I could remember it. Initially and still even court and spark took me completely away and blue almost took me as far. I kept remembering "the blonde in the bleachers, she flips her hair for you" Finally found that album and now it is up there with court and spark. wow, both those albums take me away. Mack - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 8:26 PM Subject: Re: Use The delete Key NJC > << Can we come up with a system to filter the Joni people from > the non Joni people. >> > > Daniel, the system exists...you should be on the "Joni Only" list or digest. > The fact that you got this NJC (NO JONI CONTENT) post makes me think that > you're not on the Joni only grouping. > > In the meantime, why curse the darkness, let's light a candle instead! When > was the last time you saw Joni live? Do you remember the first time you heard > a Joni song and knew that there was something *special* going on? For me it > was the high school cafeteria and "Help Me". > > And of course, the most important thing...what's your favorite Joni cover? :~D > > Bob, (I guess I have to leave the NJC on...such a dilemma!!) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:48:53 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: stephen and bob thanks guys. After reading your posts and writing mine, I did what I should have done earlier but forgot to do. I put Joni on. Feel better already. No animosity towards anyone. I love you all and mankind. Too bad the entire world cannot discover Joni. Mack ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 03:02:22 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) From: "colin" Subject: moni joni NJC At dog club there is a woman of mature years. She is always unkempt, always has a crisis going on and never stops moaning. Don't ask her how she is! Anyway, they call her moni joni cos her name is Joan, but called Joani. Anyway, when I heard her called this I said' One of my fave singers is called Joni. If you think this Joni moans, you should hear this one ;-)(note the smile and wink). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 19:03:33 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Personal attacks vs ideological debate - FOR EVERYONE > I'd like to ask that we have a moratorium on this type of discussion (personal attacks and > political debates) for the rest of the week. > > I have a cousin who is a Manhattan cop and a friend who worked for Morgan Stanley who are > still not accounted for. If either of them has perished, the political debate won't bring them back > and is frankly, infuriating. > > The list has been a light because of the empathetic wishes and encouraging reports. It would be > nice if it could continue to serve that primary purpose for just a little while longer. > I also am in agreement with Brenda. We're all far too upset as it is. We don't need to aggravate that by going on with these arguments. Can't we let it rest at least for awhile? I don't mean we need to entirely dismiss it because some things do need to be discussed. But right now my emotions are pretty ragged & raw. I had a hard time sleeping last night. I also appreciate the time & thought that people have put into their eye-witness reports, disturbing and heart-wrenching as some of them are. Out of respect for people's anguish & shock, can't we put off these other things at least for a few days? Mark E ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 19:07:32 -0700 (PDT) From: "Lori R. Fye" Subject: Musings (NJC) Dear John, Kay, and Debra, Thank you for your eloquent posts to this list. John, your juxtaposition of yesterday's events and the JoniFest made me even more thankful that some of us were able to be at Ashara's to indulge together in some of the best that Life has to offer. I wish we could all be together like that, always. Kay and Debra, I am so thankful that you (as well as our other NYC listers) are safe. Your posts are incredibly well-written and heartfelt. Through your words I understand a little more of what it was like to be there. How awful. I am so sorry to learn that you may have lost friends, and will continue to keep you all in my prayers. I still don't have words to describe my feelings about these tragedies. My first instinct upon coming home early yesterday was to put an American flag in the yard. I resisted that -- remembering so well my automobile conversations with Hell and Will (on our way from Ashara's to Lower Manhattan), asking them if other countries fly their flags all over the land as Americans do ... other countries don't. It's not that I'm not proud to be an American (I ached yesterday to be able to rejoin the military), but ... oh I don't know. I want the world to come together, rather than to see us separate and isolate ourselves. I want TOLERANCE. I've been overwhelmed by a strange sense of calm since yesterday morning. So has Mary. I thought perhaps it's our many years of Air Force service, but my mother reacted the same way. I haven't even cried yet, which makes me wonder if there's something wrong with me. Perhaps I'm simply still numb. We must, as a civilized and free society, do everything we can to find the perpetrators of these atrocities. But the idea that we might visit something similar upon innocent civilians -- regardless of their beliefs, regardless of whether they hate the U.S. or not -- makes me feel ill. Doing such things makes "us" no better than "them," and just continues the evil. Yes, this is me writing these things, the same Lori who owns a handgun and has believed in capital punishment all these years. This is me, standing on the edge of changing my mind about all of that. As far as the sniping on this list goes, that rears its ugly head from time to time. It would be wonderful if we could give it a rest right now, though, at least for awhile. This place can be an oasis if we want it to be. I love you all, those I've met and those I have not. Feel lucky, enjoy life, and care for everyone you can. Life is precious and time is something not to be wasted on pettiness and hatred. My coupla cents. Lori home safe in Wheaton, MD ~ __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 19:11:37 -0700 (PDT) From: "Lori R. Fye" Subject: One more -- Joni content this time I find it interesting/ironic that the Joni lyrics that seem to be quoted most in the aftermath of this terror come from the album that so many on the list say they dislike the most: Dog Eat Dog. "Oh these times, these times Oh these changing times Change in the heart of all mankind Oh these troubled times" Love to all, Lori (a long-time DED fan) ~ __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 22:21:11 -0400 From: "patrick leader" Subject: today's events (9-11-01) njc folks, i wrote this last night but my earthlink was compromised for northeasterners. i decided not to edit at all... - --------- my neighborhood, even my apartment, smells like smoke. here in my part of brooklyn, even ten miles away, we are downwind of what used to be world trade center. it is still burning and we can smell it. i don't really smell death, but i can't help but imagining... i was on a commute train from brooklyn across the manhattan bridge at 8:50 this morning and the conductor said 'if you're going to world trade center, please don't as we have reports of an airplane having hit one of the towers' so as we came out onto the bridge we all went to look, and the north tower was on fire. very scary, terrifying. the conductor even said, 'if you look out the window, you can see wtc on fire' but as we were watching, a plane flew into the south tower. i didn't actually see the plane, but i saw the explosion and i have never been more frightened in my life. people on my train went from perturbed to crying and screaming. our conductor said again 'again, if you look out the window, you can see wtc on fire' and someone said, 'just get us the fuck off this bridge!' i felt so under attack. i'm trying to just give experience, not my opinions. but i do think that we are at war, and we in new york might feel that a little more strongly than the rest of you, right now. one blessing. kay ashley, my good friend who made a beautiful impression at jonifest last week, worked in wtc until two weeks ago. she'd told me that she'd changed jobs, but i'd forgotten and was completely freaking out. in manhattan, we could barely get a phone signal, on cell or other phone line for most of the day today (i spent the day with my sister) but i'd been able to leave a couple of messages on kay's home phone. many hours later i finally got a call from kay, who now works very close to the wtc, heard the explosions, was trapped in her building for several hours, and had to escape from manhattan walking across a bridge (like many folks). she was fine but jittered when she called, we spoke briefly and she now has to make other calls, especially to all the people who didn't know that she wasn't at wtc any more. i'm so happy she's alive. i don't know anyone that has died. i do NOT expect that statistic to last. patrick, with no more to say np - channel 2. i don't have cable, and every other ny station broadcast from wtc. i have one tv station... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 21:29:10 -0500 From: johnirving Subject: Prayers for the lost. Thank you one and all for sharing your heartfelt joys of Jonifest. It makes the tragedy a little easier to bear. Just a little. -And thanks too for the eloquent words spoken here. They strengthen us all. The people who did this succeeded at nothing but death. Little do they realize, they have made us stronger because we value and cheerish life all the more. The nation will heal as we pray for those who lost precious life in the most horrible way imaginable. God bless you all. john. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:08:16 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: New York, New York njc Bob Murphy wrote: > On another note, I think the people of New York City -- especially the > police, fire fighters and rescue people -- have been doing a tremendous job > dealing with this catastrophe. I watched the coverage for probably 15 hours yesterday and I think their example of sheer heroics and courage gave everyone a big shot of strength. I was also amazed at the spirit and strength shown by Mayor Guiliani throughout the long day. He showed the very best of that tough New York spirit. He held up so well. Towards the end of the night, he started to show his more personal emotions a bit (for the friends in the Fire Dept. he had lost) and I was just so impressed by his grace and humanity in the thick of it all. >People in other parts of the US and throughout > the world are always putting New Yorkers down. I am originally from > Massachusetts, but I lived in New York City for four years in the early 90s. > During that time I was surprised to discover that New Yorkers are actually > much friendlier than New Englanders. Tougher; sure. Ruder; sometimes. But in > my experience, New Yorkers were always much more likely to help out a > stranger or try to lend a hand in an emergency than they're ever given credit > for. I think the demons who hatched this hideous plot were counting on NYC to > plunge into anarchy, and that just hasn't happened. So I salute the people of > NYC. Thanks for being so cool, so brave, and for being an inspiration to > people everywhere. I couldn't agree with your assessment more. They are tough and more brash at times than most of the rest of us in the states, but they also tend to wear all their emotion and heart right on their sleeve. You pretty much always know exactly where you stand with them and that is very refreshing. May we all stay cool and brave. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 23:28:17 EDT From: Ricw1217@aol.com Subject: pretty lies...(NJC) yesterday i picked up lindsay, (who is 10 years old now) as i do every afternoon on my way home from work, and i asked her if she had heard about the events of the day. "what happened?" she asked, which was oddly non-responsive, in its way. had she heard, and wanted MY version, or had she not heard, and was simply being inquisitive? anyway, i told her. my wife has several family members in manhattan, so lindsay has been there many times. she was first concerned that the buildings involved were not the one's her cousins lived in. "no, susan and annie live uptown and that's far away from where the buildings were," i told her. she asked me some additional questions. "you mean they were ON the plane when they crashed it into the buildings?" she asked, incredulous. i nodded. "why would anyone DO that?" i told her i didn't really know for sure, but that they were probably very angry with the america, and wanted to hurt us in the worst way they could. "well," she said, reactionary to the core, "we should take a plane and fly it into one of THEIR buildings!" "but that would make us as bad as they are, don't you think?" i asked. if she agreed, she wasn't willing to say out loud. "well what ARE we gonna do?" she wanted to know, and i told her i wasn't sure. "first we have to find out for sure who did it." "if we catch them, will they go to jail?" "oh, i hope so," i said. i told her it was a very sad day, and it was important for her to pay attention and try and understand. we talked a little more, then we were home and she asked if she could go outside to play. off she went... that night she was argumentative and bickery, (standard operating procedure for my little angel) with complaints about the dinner menu and all her favorite television shows being preempted. she went to bed at 9:30, with more than the usual objections. at about 10 or 11 i was at the computer, reading list mail as a matter of fact, when she suddenly screamed. to my memory, she has never had a nightmare, or wakened screaming in her life. i ran in to her room and the first thing out of her mouth was "daddy, will they come here?" all day long i had been terribly upset at the autrocity against new york, a city for which i have a passionate love. it was inconceivable to me that those towers were gone, let alone the 10's of thousands of lives they housed. i was shocked and sickened and felt isolated in my office, unable to see with my own eyes the things i had been hearing about all day. i needed to see the buildings collapse in order to really believe it had happened. so, like most americans, i sat with my hand over my mouth for most of the evening, watching those video clips over and over, from every possible angle. even so, it seemed impossible to take in. but it wasn't until i saw my precious lindsay, my bright star in this dark age, wrested from a 10 year old's sleep, screaming in terror, that i finally connected with the rage. will they come here? what does one say? earlier this summer lindsay finally asked me the 10 million dollar question about her mother, who, as many of you know, is very sick. after two years of illness, she finally asked me what she must have been dreading all this time and i could never bring myself to specifically volunteer. she asked me if her mother was dying. and although it broke my heart yet again, i told her the truth. and she cried and i held her and i, reflexively, told her that i would always take care of her. always. and last night, i held her again and again, reflexively, told her that no, they would not come here, not to swampscott, that it was ok, that she didn;t need to worry, that it would never happen here. i stroked her hair and sat with her until she fell back to sleep. just pretty lies. i thought of joan didion's famous line: "we tell ourselves stories, in order to live." peace and love, ric ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 21:34:31 -0600 From: "Brett Code" Subject: laugh and sing and play music (njc) The Canadian country music awards were held in Calgary this past weekend. Since none of the artists could fly home, they decided to organize a big concert, for free, for people to laugh and sing and celebrate - all that's good in our world and to thank the U.S. for the light it shines. Donations are going to the Red Cross. The music is going out into the universe, to join the light. Brett - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of SCJoniGuy@aol.com S"Don't apologize"! We have to begin to laugh and sing and play music and celebrate, otherwise HATE wins, and we can't let that happen. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 23:44:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Use The delete Key NJC - --- Stephen Epstein wrote: > " > > And of course, the most important thing...what's > your favorite Joni cover? > :~D > Bob, (I guess I have to leave the NJC on...such a > dilemma!!)" > > Bob, you are cracking me up! :-) Thanks for being > the one who always tries > to bring it back to JM content- the reason, really, > we are all here in the > first place! > > ... and Bob is the one who never says anything mean about or to anyone, who always finds the positive among so much negativity, and the list goes on. Bobby, I'm glad you're around. Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 21:51:24 -0600 From: "Brett Code" Subject: RE: Good and Sad Stories (NJC) 36 hours isn't much time to process the horror of the WTC's destruction. I've been crying on and off the whole time - crying not only for the sadness of the loss of life of those involved and for the heroism and bravery of those trying to assist them, but also for the loss of a world view that has gone unquestioned for a long time. This is one of those times when paradigms shift, and suddenly I am asking myself what individual liberties or fundamental freedoms I will be willing to give up in the interest of the war against terrorism. We are all going to have to give them up. Once we start, there may be no going back. The consequences may be far-reaching. The balance is shifting. We used to say - it is better that 100 guilty persons go free than to have one innocent imprisoned wrongly. Now, we have to at least ask - Is it better to lose something of that if it can avoid the loss of thousands of innocent lives like those lost yesterday? I hear the bedrock of our system of justice rumbling like the grounds around the WTC. Brett ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:41:21 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Paz (NJC) Azeem, You have always been one of my favorite people on the list and I have admired in principle that you have courage to vigorously support and defend a friend. However, you are egregiously wrong in your assessment of Michael Paz. You are right - you do not know him well. Not your fault - but to those of us who do know him, we cannot let this one lay here. I'm not going to belabor here all the reasons why Paz is not the person you think he is - he needs no detailed defense. Please, please do not make snap assumptions of people when you do not know them or what they may or may not have done or not done. Thank you, Kakki > It seems to me to be a howl of frustration at the fact that >Marcel's abuse of her is being allowed to escape, and >that Michael seems to be bending over backwards to >avoid reprimanding Marcel for his private posts. >>(Michael, you and I don't know each other very well, and >have never exchanged a cross word; I still find it sad that >you seem to be glossing over Marcel's conduct). In > short, I believe Debra was provoked. ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2001 #401 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?