From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2001 #400 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Wednesday, September 12 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 400 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- $ 0.02 (in guilders: fl 0.05) [John van Tiel ] Re: $ 0.02 (in guilders: fl 0.05) [colin ] Re: terrrorist attacks -mike pritchard-njc [Don Rowe ] Re: Personal attacks vs ideological debate - FOR EVERYONE ["Michael Paz" ] Re: Personal attacks vs ideological debate - FOR EVERYONE ["Brenda J. Wal] NJC Re: Personal attacks vs ideological debate - FOR EVERYONE [SCJoniGuy@] cheap shot pt3, NJC ["Laurent Olszer" ] Good and Sad Stories (NJC) [AsharaJM@aol.com] RE: cheap shot pt3, NJC ["Chris Marshall" ] Use The delete Key NJC [colin ] Insanity (NJC) ["Lori R. Fye" ] Re: Personal attacks vs ideological debate plus go NYC! - NJC [Murphycopy] Re: NJC Re: Personal attacks vs ideological debate - FOR EVERYONE ["Micha] Re: NJC Re: Personal attacks vs ideological debate - FOR EVERYONE [SCJoni] Re: Use The delete Key NJC ["Michael Paz" ] Re: Use The delete Key NJC ["colin" ] worst offNJC ["colin" ] Re: Insanity (NJC) ["colin" ] Picture CD [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Re: Use The delete Key NJC ["colin" ] Re: Use The delete Key/REQUEST NJC ["Victor Johnson" ] Language NJC [colin ] Re: [Jonifest2001] Picture CD Correction [RoseMJoy@aol.com] RE: worst offNJC ["Deb Messling" ] blackness, blackness draggin' me down [cvickery@danielrealty.com] frayed nerves (NJC) ["Deb Messling" ] Re: worst offNJC [colin ] Closer than we think - NJC ["hell" ] Re: frayed nerves (NJC) [colin ] Terrorist Attack NJC [john low ] I second that emotion... [BigWaltinSF@aol.com] RE: why not blame the Jews, NJC ["jlamadoo, home account" ] the day after, NJC [TimandMaryPowers@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 14:34:57 -0400 From: John van Tiel Subject: $ 0.02 (in guilders: fl 0.05) Just a few thoughts after reading Marcel's & Laurent's & Chris' & Anne's & Debra's & Patrick's & E.T. CETERA's mails. A wise rabbi from Haifa to a boy who asked him what "truth" was: "There are three truths. Your truth, my truth and THE truth." An anecdote from Amsterdam, 1942, World War 2: "In 1942, the Amsterdam Jodenbuurt (Jew Quarter) was situated close to an area where the tough & rough harbour workers lived. Many of the harbour workers hated the Jews, picking fights with them, calling them names ("Smousen" - Spics), making their lives miserable at times. Then the Germans moved in for the first, mild, anti-Jew measures. Within an hour or so, thousands of wire-muscled harbour workers had surrounded the Jewish quarter, preventing the Germans from entering the area. Their explanation: They're fucking Jews, but they're OUR fucking Jews." Was this true? I don't know, I was not there. But I have always liked this variation on Decartes' saying: "I despise your views, but I am prepared to die for your right to express them." Let's not be angered by views. Not even when they are backed by conceived truths. Let's not see an exchange of views and truths as a competition in being right. And let's consider feelings to be 'facts', too. All parties, please - bullies, bullied and spectators. My 5 centen. John P.S. BTW, Chris, now I know why you are called "Marshall" ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 19:51:09 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: $ 0.02 (in guilders: fl 0.05) > "I despise your views, but I am prepared to > die for your right to express them." > > Let's not be angered by views. > > Not even when they are backed by conceived truths. > Let's not see an exchange of views and truths as a competition in being > right. > And let's consider feelings to be 'facts', too. > All parties, please - bullies, bullied and spectators. well put. views are views and can be expressed without abuse. > > > My 5 centen. > > John > > P.S. BTW, Chris, now I know why you are called "Marshall" ;-) - -- bw colin DAK,BRO GC, 950i 940,860,864, 260, 890,Silver 830 and 270, Passap 6000 Duo80 colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 11:42:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: terrrorist attacks -mike pritchard-njc My father, a Quaker & Army medic who refused to carry a weapon during his service in WWII, was on a troop transport headed for the planned landing invasion of Japan. The CO openly told the members of his company that casualties from the first wave were expected at 100% KIA. Prayers & goodbyes were said. The next day, it was learned that President Truman had authorized the use of, and delivered 2 Atomic weapons over Hiroshima & Nagasaki. The Japanese surrendered ... my father's troop transport turned around and headed back to San Fransisco harbor. So I must salute the pilot of Enola Gay. Otherwise, I would not be here to post this. Don Rowe ===== Visit me anytime at http://www.mp3.com/donrowe Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 21:24:49 +0100 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: cheap shot from the blind fundamentalist, NJC Dear Mack, Thank you for your very honest post which I feel came from your heart. First, I speak for myself only, not for all Jews. I'll tell you a little story which happened to me 20 years ago: when I arrived in the U.S. to study, I found out upon checking in at the campus dorm that my roommate was a Saudi. Without even meeting the guy, I asked to be reassigned with someone else. Turns out the new American roommate was an asshole. Turns out the Saudi guy was one of the greatest guys in the dorm, we became friends and he did things to help me out that nobody else would do. So I learned the lesson well about prejudice and to this day I've told this story many times to prove this point. By the same token, I've been screwed later on by several Jews, even religious ones. I know very few people in business who are fundamentally honest and could be trusted with a suitcase containing $1 million. One of these honest men with whom I worked for years is a Muslim Iranian, the other one is a Muslim Algerian Kabyle. Let me assure you, when I visited Israel, Jordan and Egypt, in my heart I felt NO HATE whatsoever against Arabs. My father was a survivor from Hitler's summer camps (that's his own expression, just to show you he never lost his sense of humor). For years he fought with the German embassy to track down a German wehrmacht soldier (a musician too!) who risked his life to save Jews. The Germans authorities thought he was out for revenge, when it was in fact to thank him publicly. After 30 years he managed to find his widow and children and he made headlines in the local German newspaper when he visited the soldier's grave. For 20 years there's been a framed photograph of this German soldier in uniform in the bedroom. Today I work with some Germans whom I respect. The list could go on and on. I JUDGE PEOPLE FOR WHAT THEY ARE AND DO, NOT BECAUSE OF PREJUDICE. There are good and bad people everywhere. In fact I think I'm one of the least prejudiced person there is. (don't laugh, I mean it) True, sometimes my words are misunderstood because I call a spade a spade, or perhaps because of some generalizations. On an individual level I trust everyone until proven otherwise. For these reasons, it saddens me to be called a blind fundamentalist. My posts don't make me less sensitive to the universal pain and suffering, whether it's a New Yorker today or a Palestinian mother tomorrow. I just remember history. I remember how the Western world and the U.S. wouldn't let German Jews come in 60 years ago. I don't want the Pope nor the Poles nor the French Church nor anybody to ask for forgiveness 50 years after we're all dead. For once the media spotlight is on one side so I can make a cheap shot. Was I offending or insensitive to the victims? The rest of the year the media focuses on the bad Israelis ("neo Nazis") murdering innocent Palestinian children. I guess that's asking too much and I'm "cruel and disgusting and shameless". Some people got their priorities wrong. But at least I'm open to discussion.... Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:49:27 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: cheap shot from the blind fundamentalist, NJC This email does indeed show you in a different light. I for one am always gving people the benefit of the doubt. > > > For once the media spotlight is on one side so I can make a cheap shot. > Was I offending or insensitive to the victims? of course you were becuase you used their plight to make a cheap shot. > > The rest of the year the media focuses on the bad Israelis ("neo Nazis") > murdering innocent Palestinian children. do you not think there are innocent Palestinian children? the trouble with statements like this and previous ones you have made, is that it appears you do not care about Palestinians being killed by Israeli's, children or adutls. You seem not to care and worse seem to justify it. This is why I and others formed the opinon of you as a bigoted fundy. The first part of this email goes some way to having me think i made a mistake. But then you added the last paragraph which shows you differently again. > > I guess that's asking too much and I'm "cruel and disgusting and shameless". > Some people got their priorities wrong. Yes I think you have. I, and I think the tohers who participated in this, do not support the killing of Israeli's or anyone, by paletstinians, Muslims or whoeevr. Nor do I support the killing of others by Israeli's. is that so difficult to undertsand? Is that so wrong, to be against the violence? look where violence has gotten us all. > But at least I'm open to > discussion.... > > Laurent - -- bw colin DAK,BRO GC, 950i 940,860,864, 260, 890,Silver 830 and 270, Passap 6000 Duo80 colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 12:33:01 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Personal attacks vs ideological debate - FOR EVERYONE Brenda, I'm so sorry that you are having concern about your cousin and friend right now. I don't want to call for any censorship of posts here, but I also wish we could have a moratorium on the debates for just a little bit. It is more important for us to be sharing our stories and grief right now. As for those debates, let me say that I have affection and care for pretty much everyone concerned. I could not take sides in their debates if I wanted to because I have privately agreed with many points made by ALL sides in it. Please let's all try more to respect each other (meaning all listmembers) as individuals here. Please let's try to check our egos at the door for just a few days, if possible. The firsthand accounts of those are close to this abomination have helped me and I think others, so much. Please keep talking - we need to talk about this from personal viewpoints as we go through the shock and mourning process. . Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:50:32 +0100 From: "Chris Marshall" Subject: RE: Personal attacks vs ideological debate (NJC) Not For Shea, Azeem, and Colin Marcel, Debra's reply went to you AND THE LIST. This not the same as personal e-mail! Your "proof delivered" is nothing of the sort. What people have repeatedly objected to are *personal* e-mails. By that, I mean e-mail messages addressed *solely* to them. An email message To the list and CCd to someone else is not personal. An email To someone specific which is CCd to the list is not personal. The mechanics of e-mail clients are such that occasionally both the originator's e-mail address and the list's e-mail address both end up in the recipient headers of a reply message. We all have to live with that, and remember to check the headers to see where the message was destined. I'm interested that you said "when have the Israelis ever done what the Islamics did yesterday. Attack some distant country and murder 10-20,000 people". I find this fascinating in the light of the fact that Islamic people the world over are seeking to distance themselves from this attack, and *whatever* organisation perpetrated it, and to NOT be tarred with the same brush as the terrorists. Your statement leaves me with a very bad taste in my mouth. It's just like me saying "all Americans are red-neck assholes". A complete and unjust generalisation. > I have categorically demanded that they delete my posts. This is nowhere near the same magnitude as people asking you not to e-mail them privately with a message that isn't also CCd to the list at large. It's like sending junk mail to a million people but saying at the top "If your name is foo, bar, or blat, please throw this in the bin now, or I'll take it as a personal affront if you don't, and happen to object to the contents of this letter". Bah. - --Chris ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 14:48:20 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: brenda njc I am game Brenda and I hope that your people are okay. My prayers are with you. Mack ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 14:51:48 -0500 From: "Michael Paz" Subject: Re: Personal attacks vs ideological debate - FOR EVERYONE Thanks Kakki and Brenda, I too amd so fecking weary of this idle bantering back and forth. Out of respect for our fellow listers gentle requests, please lets table all this political crap for the time being. Thank you in advance Michael - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kakki" To: "Brenda J. Walker" ; Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 2:33 PM Subject: Re: Personal attacks vs ideological debate - FOR EVERYONE > Brenda, > > I'm so sorry that you are having concern about your cousin and friend right > now. I don't want to call for any censorship of posts here, but I also wish > we could have a moratorium on the debates for just a little bit. It is more > important for us to be sharing our stories and grief right now. As for > those debates, let me say that I have affection and care for pretty much > everyone concerned. I could not take sides in their debates if I wanted to > because I have privately agreed with many points made by ALL sides in it. > Please let's all try more to respect each other (meaning all listmembers) as > individuals here. Please let's try to check our egos at the door for just a > few days, if possible. > > The firsthand accounts of those are close to this abomination have helped me > and I think others, so much. Please keep talking - we need to talk about > this from personal viewpoints as we go through the shock and mourning > process. . > > Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:10:42 -0700 From: "Brenda J. Walker" Subject: Re: Personal attacks vs ideological debate - FOR EVERYONE I'm pleased to report that I finally got through to my cousin's 8 year old who confirmed that her mom is hard at work but is safe. I must say that she is being very brave in handling these things. Although I still haven't heard word on my friend at Morgan, I just got an IM that the CEO has reported that most of their folks got out. I'll keep praying that my friend is one of the lucky ones. Thanks to everyone for your well wishes. Brenda On 12 Sep 2001, at 14:51, Michael Paz wrote: > Thanks Kakki and Brenda, I too amd so fecking weary of this idle bantering > back and forth. Out of respect for our fellow listers gentle requests, > please lets table all this political crap for the time being. > Thank you in advance > > Michael > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kakki" > To: "Brenda J. Walker" ; > Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 2:33 PM > Subject: Re: Personal attacks vs ideological debate - FOR EVERYONE > > > > Brenda, > > > > I'm so sorry that you are having concern about your cousin and friend > right > > now. I don't want to call for any censorship of posts here, but I also > wish > > we could have a moratorium on the debates for just a little bit. It is > more > > important for us to be sharing our stories and grief right now. As for > > those debates, let me say that I have affection and care for pretty much > > everyone concerned. I could not take sides in their debates if I wanted > to > > because I have privately agreed with many points made by ALL sides in it. > > Please let's all try more to respect each other (meaning all listmembers) > as > > individuals here. Please let's try to check our egos at the door for just > a > > few days, if possible. > > > > The firsthand accounts of those are close to this abomination have helped > me > > and I think others, so much. Please keep talking - we need to talk about > > this from personal viewpoints as we go through the shock and mourning > > process. . > > > > Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 16:14:00 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: NJC Re: Personal attacks vs ideological debate - FOR EVERYONE <> Can we interpret the phrase "time being" to mean about 10 years? :~D Probably not... Anyway, what a contrast, I've spent the last 4 hours looking at my Jonifest picture CD...WHAT A TREASURE CHEST!! Such a flood of GOOD memories have washed over me. And what a healing experience this is. As for being photogenic, I think everybody is! (But couldn't there be at least ONE bad Stephen Epstein pic in here?) These pics show people who really are smiling (no passport smile here), belly laughing, singing with joy in their souls, really listening...an amazing collection. I know it's been said so many times, even in the last 24 hours, but thank you John for this. It may be the best CD you've made for me, and that puts it up against some pretty stiff competition. Oh, and the 3 photos that Claudia wasn't in are pretty good too! :~D Now all I need is the MUSIC! ;~) Bob NP: Tony Joe White, "Main Squeeze" live ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 22:34:09 +0100 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: cheap shot pt3, NJC Dear CHRIS Thank you for asking for clarification instead of passing a quick judgment. - - > > Too bad you cannot see the connection between the attack and history and > > causality that led to it. > > This only seems like one step away from saying "well, with your history, > you deserve it". To put my mind at rest, why don't you fully explain what > you *mean*, rather than leaving something contentious like that hanging > around. It may spare you an awful lot of invective. > Not at all. Just meant there is an obvious connection between middle east history and this attack. In other words I'm not using UNRELATED events to "further my cause", which would be insensitive. > > Can't a Jew make a commentary without being called names? > > I don't think *anyone* should, with any degree of sensitivity, really > be making a statement like you just did - regardless of their own > religion. And the fact that you're using yesterday's events to try > and wrest the conversation back to your own agenda is pretty low. I'm sorry if my commentary was offensive but thousands of years of persecution have gotten me "accustomed" to tragic events. What appears to be insensitivity is necessary to survive in this brutal world. Didn't mean to offend the victims' relatives, just made a commentary on a related topic. PLEASE see my reply to MACK in today's digest for a more detailed answer. My timing was perhaps wrong, which I personally disclaimed from the start by saying this was a cheap shot. It's insensitive but do you think it's unrelated? > I could almost think that your statement above is an accusation of > anti-semitism. That'd be novel... > I don't know Clark, as soon as I open my mouth hell comes down. Ain't accusing anyone, though. I'll keep my opinions to myself, for once. Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 16:28:29 EDT From: AsharaJM@aol.com Subject: Good and Sad Stories (NJC) Kakki wrote: <> I spent literally the entire morning hysterically crying. I don't know what came over me, but the minute I woke up, I turned to Sal and said, "Please tell me it isn't true." Of course, a few seconds later, I remembered that it really was true, and burst into tears. Kakki, I agree that the personal stories are what help to heal and mourn, so I will share a few....... A woman in Topsfield has a brother that works on the 100 something floor at the World Trade Center. Fortunately, he was not in his office yesterday, but was on a business trip instead. Horrifically, he was on the flight from Newark that went into the Pentagon. Sal was in a customer's house yesterday when the news hit. He spent the next 4 hours glued to his customer's TV with him. During that time, this man frantically tried to call his father-in-law that works on the 85th floor of the WTC. When he finally got through, he found out that his very punctual father-in-law had overslept that day. But for the Grace of God............ Hugs, Ashara ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 21:37:17 +0100 From: "Chris Marshall" Subject: RE: cheap shot pt3, NJC Laurent wrote:- > PLEASE see my reply to MACK in today's digest for a more detailed answer. That does indeed clear things up. The combination of yesterday's tragic events and some very "loose" statements really didn't sit well together though. I can only hope that you did notice the occurrance of "seems", "could" and "should"... > My timing was perhaps wrong, which I personally disclaimed from the start by > saying this was a cheap shot. It's insensitive but do you think it's > unrelated? Unrelated - perhaps not, but I think we need the benefit of time and proven intelligence before conclusions are leapt to, parallels drawn, and so on. Cheers, - --Chris ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 21:56:55 +0100 From: colin Subject: Use The delete Key NJC I undertsand that people may not like some of the topics or discussion on this list but instead of telling us what to write and not write, please use your delete key or scroll thru if you are on digest. There are many things written here i dislike but I wouldn't dream of telling people not to write it. Horses for courses as they say. - -- bw colin DAK,BRO GC, 950i 940,860,864, 260, 890,Silver 830 and 270, Passap 6000 Duo80 colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:47:38 -0700 (PDT) From: "Lori R. Fye" Subject: Insanity (NJC) This is from my good friend Sharon in Philadelphia (a Joni fan who is not on our list but who should be). I find her words powerful and accurate: << The insanity of this all is in no way diminished by the predictability of it, or something like it. It's a terrible world we live in, not only because something like this can occur, but more so because you can watch six year old children on the West Bank celebrating it. I have always thought religion was potentially the most dangerous threat facing the world, a threat to our civil liberties here at home, and now, to our personal safety. I hope god appreciates (or Allah, or Buddah, or whomever) how we've managed to corrupt an ostensibly enlightening and benevolent concept to suit our own need to feel superior--to someone who would get an abortion, to someone who's homosexual, to a Catholic, to a Protestant, to a citizen of a more powerful country. Whatever happened to the Opiate of the People concept? >> Lori in Bethesda (may as well be accurate about location) ~ Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 16:55:00 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Personal attacks vs ideological debate plus go NYC! - NJC In a message dated 9/12/01 2:50:02 PM, KakkiB@worldnet.att.net writes: << The firsthand accounts of those are close to this abomination have helped me and I think others, so much. Please keep talking - we need to talk about this from personal viewpoints as we go through the shock and mourning process. >> I agree, Kakki. The NYC stories of surviving this horror that have been posted by people like Debra and Kay have been so much more informative and poignant than nearly all of the sound bites we get through the major media. Plus other posts, such as John van Tiel's profound "Heaven and Hell" e-mail, have really given me a sense of hope that we'll all get through this. Have you heard talk radio today? It's full of hysteria and lots of kill-those-bastards kinds of crap that I just can't even listen to. On another note, I think the people of New York City -- especially the police, fire fighters and rescue people -- have been doing a tremendous job dealing with this catastrophe. People in other parts of the US and throughout the world are always putting New Yorkers down. I am originally from Massachusetts, but I lived in New York City for four years in the early 90s. During that time I was surprised to discover that New Yorkers are actually much friendlier than New Englanders. Tougher; sure. Ruder; sometimes. But in my experience, New Yorkers were always much more likely to help out a stranger or try to lend a hand in an emergency than they're ever given credit for. I think the demons who hatched this hideous plot were counting on NYC to plunge into anarchy, and that just hasn't happened. So I salute the people of NYC. Thanks for being so cool, so brave, and for being an inspiration to people everywhere. For the first time in my life, if New York wins the World Series this year, I'll be cheering for them. Take care, --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 15:58:43 -0500 From: "Michael Paz" Subject: Re: NJC Re: Personal attacks vs ideological debate - FOR EVERYONE - ----- Original Message ----- From: > Can we interpret the phrase "time being" to mean about 10 years? :~D Great IDEA! > Anyway, what a contrast, I've spent the last 4 hours looking at my Jonifest picture CD...WHAT A TREASURE CHEST!! OOOOOOO I hope mine are waiting at home. > > Such a flood of GOOD memories have washed over me. And what a healing experience this is. As for being photogenic, I think everybody is! (But couldn't there be at least ONE bad Stephen Epstein pic in here?) These pics show people who really are smiling (no passport smile here), belly laughing, singing with joy in their souls, really listening...an amazing collection. That guy Stephen isn't all that hot Bob, I wouldn't worry about it too much I din't hear any of the chicks talking about his tush as much as they do you. > Now all I need is the MUSIC! ;~) Just got off the fone with Mr. Les Irvin regarding the DAT to CD transfer and we have a plan and it should be fairly quick as far as turn around time this year. WHO is doing the artwork and fotos this year??? I hope to finish my transfers by Sunday. I will keep ya'll posted. Love Paz ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 17:06:13 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC Re: Personal attacks vs ideological debate - FOR EVERYONE <> I nominate Hell...she did a SUPER job with her Kiwi Compilation artwork! Bob NP: Who, "In A Hand Or A Face" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 16:07:55 -0500 From: "Michael Paz" Subject: Re: Use The delete Key NJC Yes Colin you are exempt from anyones gentle requests for peace in OUR community. - ----- Original Message ----- From: "colin" To: "joni" Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 3:56 PM Subject: Use The delete Key NJC > I undertsand that people may not like some of the topics or discussion > on this list but instead of telling us what to write and not write, > please use your delete key or scroll thru if you are on digest. > There are many things written here i dislike but I wouldn't dream of > telling people not to write it. Horses for courses as they say. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 22:29:25 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) From: "colin" Subject: Re: Use The delete Key NJC - -------Original Message------- From: Michael Paz Date: 12 September 2001 22:07:48 To: colin; joni Subject: Re: Use The delete Key NJC Yes Colin you are exempt from anyones gentle requests for peace in OUR community. please don't be childish and sarcastic. My mail was perfectly civil and sensible. I don't like discord. You seem to, or you wouldn't have sent this. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 22:35:30 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) From: "colin" Subject: worst offNJC In this nightmare it will be the children who suffer the most. Thru trauma and being orphaned. Juts like those children I have heard people say they saw cheering in the middle east. please don't hate them. remeber they are children. they are being abused by the adults around them-taught to hate. the children in the aftermath of this tragedy will need all the help they can get to become healthy functioning adults. Unfortunately we know from experince that the needs of children are not put first so many of these children will not be helped. It is the way we treat the children of this world that creates the world we live in. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 22:38:05 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) From: "colin" Subject: Re: Insanity (NJC) I have always thought religion was potentially the most dangerous threat facing the world, a threat to our civil liberties here at home, and now, to our personal safety. I hope god appreciates (or Allah, or Buddah, or whomever) how we've managed to corrupt an ostensibly enlightening and benevolent concept to suit our own need to feel superior--to someone who would get an abortion, to someone who's homosexual, to a Catholic, to a Protestant, to a citizen of a more powerful country. Whatever happened to the Opiate of the People concept? >> I agree with your friend, Lori. religion, people's insistance that their reality be forced upon everyone else, is indeed the cause of so much trouble however, I believe the root casue behind everything is fear. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 17:34:24 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Picture CD John & Claudia: Thanks so much for sending the picture CD. I ran it earlier through Thumbs Plus which provides an option to view the pictures in a slideshow presentation rather than clicking on each individual JPEG. What an awesome job you guys did! You captured some really nice candid shots. I particularly liked the one of Jody and Les Ross. Their expressions say it all man. Thanks again for sending it so quickly. Much Love Rose Joy in NJ rosemjoy@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 22:45:19 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) From: "colin" Subject: Re: Use The delete Key NJC - -------Original Message------- From: Michael Paz Date: 12 September 2001 22:26:12 To: colin Subject: Re: Use The delete Key NJC Its seems like you are immune to any of this. You can say whatever you want whenever and feel free to call people sanmes and degrade them just they way you accuse others. Calling me childish and sarcastic? Please. At least Debra Shea has the decency to avoid all the bullshit that has been going on. You have very high opinions of yourself and plenty of disregard for the people you claim to support in this time of sorrow. Civil and sensible WOULD NOT be words I would use to describe your last post. Paz Dear Micahel- re read your post and see who is thinking they are immune. I know you have been itching to have a go, because myself and others have dared to call your friend on his beahviour. If you are so concerned about bad beahviour, why didn't you speak up before? Name calling is not my game. Saying what you wrote is childish and sacrcastic is not name calling. You are being hypocrical. Of course I feel freee to write as I wish, I belong to this list as much as you do. the difftreence is, unlike you, I don't have the arrogance you have just displayed. If you don't like what i write, fine, I don't expect people to. i don't write for you. However, I aslo don't expect this sort of personal attack especially from sombody who pretends to be above it! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 17:39:20 -0400 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Re: Use The delete Key/REQUEST NJC > I undertsand that people may not like some of the topics or discussion > on this list but instead of telling us what to write and not write, > please use your delete key or scroll thru if you are on digest. > There are many things written here i dislike but I wouldn't dream of > telling people not to write it No one was told what to write or not write. GENTLE REQUESTS have been made to please tone down the fighting which has been stirred up by politics and such. Jonifest 2001 was such a peaceful haven from the craziness and heartache in the world and it stands out even more clearly now as one of the most HAPPIEST experiences I have ever had. It was really a life changing experience, a time that has touched me very deeply, and I would like to see that spirit nurtured on this list. I think everybody has been affected by the past few days in more ways than we could possibly fathom. Please help make this place a haven right now where we can find healing, peace, love, and nurturing. Please make that CHOICE. I thought of this song below and how really poignant it is right now Fragile by Sting If blood will flow when flesh and steel are one Drying in the color of the evening sun Tomorrow's rain will wash the stains away But something in our minds will always stay Perhaps this final act was meant To clinch a lifetime's argument That nothing comes from violence and nothing ever could For all those born beneath an angry star Lest we forget how fragile we are On and on the rain will fall Like tears from a star like tears from a star On and on the rain will say How fragile we are How fragile we are On and on the rain will fall Like tears from a star like tears from a star On and on the rain will say How fragile we are How fragile we are Victor Johnson http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson "Velveteen rabbits and moonbeams, Come when you lay down your head. While you are sleeping, they kiss you and tell you, That you are the reason the sun lights the sky." Scarlet-V. Johnson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 17:51:18 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: Use The delete Key NJC Michael Paz wrote: > > Yes Colin you are exempt from anyones gentle requests for peace in OUR > community. PEACE PEACE you want PEACE and you come out with garbage like this??!!! Anybody that is sitting on the fence so comfortably that they see nothing wrong with using the situation in NYC as just another opportunity for some more Clinton bashing is so contemptible I want to spit all over you. I just passed our neighborhood firehouse and 8 of the 9 men that work there are dead. A cousin of the deli man is dead. I haven't heard about my friend yet. People are walking around red-eyed from crying. People all over the country are sick with worry about people they know. The dust of death is all over the city. Even in my neighborhood uptown there's so much now I can't breathe. PEACE? FUCK YOU!!! There's nothing admirable about using the call for peace to cover up wrongdoing and protect your friend who's the reason there's not been peace on this list. FUCK YOU for that! Go dance in the streets with your pal Marcel. Take Laurent with you. They're doing exactly what the Palestinians are doing, using this horror as a time for self-righteous celebration. FUCK YOU ALL!!!!!!! Debra Shea > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "colin" > To: "joni" > Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 3:56 PM > Subject: Use The delete Key NJC > > > I undertsand that people may not like some of the topics or discussion > > on this list but instead of telling us what to write and not write, > > please use your delete key or scroll thru if you are on digest. > > There are many things written here i dislike but I wouldn't dream of > > telling people not to write it. Horses for courses as they say. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 22:56:03 +0100 From: colin Subject: Language NJC It seems to me the people misunderstand the use of language in poeple's posts. To say the I disagree with you is not to say I think you are a bad person. To say I think something is stupid, is not to say I think it is the person who is stupid. To say someone is being childish is not to say that is how they are always andforever. To say that a comment or attitude is racist, sexist, or whatever is not to say that the person who made it is such. People so often interpret what they read to mean something else entrirely. we all do soemtimes. When a person says YOU are stupid, YOU are ignorant, YOU are bad, YOU are ugly, YOU rae....the list goes on ...THAT is insulting and rightly interpreted as such. There is a big difference between a behaviour / attitude and the person. Condemn one and not the other. Trouble is when you condemn a behaviouir, people don't undertsand, take it personally and then accuse the person falsely of condemning the person! - -- bw colin DAK,BRO GC, 950i 940,860,864, 260, 890,Silver 830 and 270, Passap 6000 Duo80 colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 18:34:39 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: [Jonifest2001] Picture CD Correction In a message dated 9/12/01 5:41:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rosemjoy@aol.com writes: > I particularly > liked the one of Jody and Les Ross. Their expressions say it all man. Pardon me, it was the picture of Jody & Victor lol rosemjoy@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 18:33:57 -0400 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: RE: worst offNJC Colin, you've expressed my thoughts perfectly. I've been trying to think of all the ways we could prevent this kind of murderous insanity, through security measures, war, whatever, and it all seems so futile. I don't feel comforted by promises that my government is going to retaliate. I feel damn scared. I really believe our only hope is in some kind of spiritual awakening (me, the atheist!) We have to change our hearts and we have to figure out a way to stop turning our little babies into killers. I don't pretend to know much about the Middle East, but it does seem apparent to me that those Palestinian kids are being "carefully taught" to hate. > Juts like those children I have heard people say they saw cheering in the > middle east. please don't hate them. remeber they are children. they are > being abused by the adults around them-taught to hate. > It is the way we treat the children of this world that creates > the world we live in. - ----------------------------------- Deb Messling =^..^= - ----------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 17:33:35 -0500 From: cvickery@danielrealty.com Subject: blackness, blackness draggin' me down far be it from a lurker to ask for anything, since the requests of others has been ignored..... but since we're *all* stressed and we're *all* on edge, please let's all try to take the high road here and be patient with each other. this forum is best used to shore each other up, not tear each other apart. and no matter what our intentions are, i think we've done more than our share of tearing each other apart on this day. all the best (please!!), cindy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 18:38:41 -0400 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: frayed nerves (NJC) It's too bad about all the sniping today, but it's predictable. We hear about these tragedies bringing people together, but in my experience, a lot of petty crap gets in the way just because we're human -- tired, sad, scared, mad, and thrown off balance so we don't know what we're scared of or mad at. When my oldest sister died a few years back, I got into a fight with one of my other sisters about the use of whole eggs instead of Egg Beaters to make an omelet. No kidding. Let's try to give each other a break. - ----------------------------------- Deb Messling =^..^= - ----------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 00:09:44 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: worst offNJC > I really believe our only hope is in some kind of spiritual > awakening (me, the atheist!) We have to change our hearts and we have to > figure out a way to stop turning our little babies into killers. > In Northern Ireland they do the same. Protestant children are taught to hate Roman Catholic children and Roman Catholic children are taught to hate Protestant children.(I was brought up RC until my early teens. We were taught that all non RC's were bad people and heretics and would go to hell. we wre also taught that anyone who died not baptised in the faith would not get to heaven. When my teacher's wife gave birth to a still born son, I realsied this teaching was crap. I was 10). But it isn't just religion. Boys are taught to eschew all things femineine and grow up to be men who have difficulty with things like intimacy and expressing of emotions. Girls are taught that good girls don't do certain things. thus men and women gorw up to be somthing other than themselves. hate is subtle, it is taught in many diffferent ways. We are taught to hate difference-be it race, religion, nationality, sexuality, hair colour(yes-ask a red head), left handedness, the list is endless. We end up with people who cannot feel all of themselves, cannot empathise, who are not whole. Some of us spend a lifetime trying to undo it all. Most of us just walk around feeling wrong but not knowing why or how to solve it. it is terrible what we do. However, we also have the capacity for greatness, for love, for compassion, for growth, for fortitude. we will win out in the end. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 11:02:55 +1200 From: "hell" Subject: Closer than we think - NJC I still haven't been able to assimilate everything that's happened in the last two days. I still feel pretty numbed by it all. It's a real mixture of emotions. Happiness that our list members are safe, sadness for those who have lost friends and family, and hope that some may still be alive beneath the rubble (and selfish relief that I'm home safe and sound). Yesterday I posted that many people here feel quite distant from world events like this. A phone call last night immediately changed that. I had calls all day from friends and family, checking that I'd made it home safely, but the last call was from my brother here in Auckland. We chatted for a while, and I said that thankfully, it seems everyone I know is safe. He then told me he has two or three close friends who worked in the WTC, and who are most likely missing. It seems we're not so far removed as I thought. The world seems much, much smaller today..... Hell ____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Hell's Personal Photo Page: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/main/personal.htm Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://www.nbls.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 00:10:58 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: frayed nerves (NJC) > I got into a fight > with one of my other sisters about the use of whole eggs instead of Egg > Beaters to make an omelet. No kidding. I believe you! Fera and grief do strange things to us and most of them not pelasant. > > > Let's try to give each other a break. > > ----------------------------------- > Deb Messling =^..^= > ----------------------------------- - -- bw colin DAK,BRO GC, 950i 940,860,864, 260, 890,Silver 830 and 270, Passap 6000 Duo80 colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 9:04:10 +1000 From: john low Subject: Terrorist Attack NJC Last night our National Broadcaster cancelled all its regular TV programs and devoted the whole evening to coverage of the tragedy. The last report I heard this morning said that, among the thousands of victims, at least two Australians were killed in the airplanes and over 70 are unaccounted for on the ground. It all defies expression! I really cant find any words that seem appropriate. They all end up sounding so trite. Its just too horrible and the consequences for the whole world are frightening. Its all going to get very messy I fear. The world is a very sad place at the moment. I really feel for you all. John (in Sydney) PS. Its sobering for me personally to think that, only a matter of weeks ago, my own son was taking photographs from the top of the WTC. __________________________________________________________________ Get your free Australian email account at http://www.start.com.au ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 19:08:20 EDT From: BigWaltinSF@aol.com Subject: I second that emotion... Hi everyone, I've been too overwhelmed and depressed to contribute to the list lately, and I'm still new, but I'd like to second the proposal that the strictly political debates and vituperously personal attacks be put to rest. Aren't there enough other outlets for that sort of thing? I am enjoying the general tone of sharing and support this list is bringing to my life, and I hope it can continue. love and peace to all, walt ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 19:12:22 -0400 From: "jlamadoo, home account" Subject: RE: why not blame the Jews, NJC Colin, Did we read the same post? Laurent was pointing out that a number of terrorists activities are attributable to the Palestinians. Why didn't you address his assertion with an intellectual argument? He asserted that intifada has resulted in far fewer Palestinian dead than the terrorist attack on civilians on the other side of the planet. What's the point of trying to shame Laurent? You expressed your opinion but you didn't pursuade anyone. You are just blaming the messenger. I would say that the terrorism is "disgusting, outrageous, cruel and mean spirited" as you put it. Laurent didn't even do any name-calling. (Although YOU did.) He merely asked if anyone can ever again doubt that Israel has legitimate security concerns. How could anyone be offended by that? It's completely obvious that Israel has a legitimate security concern, so how is there any shame for Laurent in stating that? And so, Colin, I stand before you today, boldly stating that the sky is "blue". Am I shamed forever for stating the obvious? I'm sorry, bud. I'm not with you in this campaign. Lamadoo As that famous Brit bard penned for King Lear, "Mend your speech a little, lest you mar your fortunes." > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of colin > Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 6:31 AM > To: Laurent Olszer > Cc: joni@smoe.org > Subject: Re: why not blame the Jews, NJC > I cannot believe you have used this occurance to further your own > cause. This is > sick. Not it wasn't a cheap shot, it was disgusting, outrageous, > cruel and mean > spirited. You have lost any respect I may have had for you and > your stance. Shame > on you. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 19:17:17 -0400 From: "jlamadoo, home account" Subject: The "Marcel" Problem... njc Ya know, in retrospect, calling Marcel a "cyber-rapist" was out of control and outside the bounds of the rules. (I didn't say it.) Regardless of what he _does_, I'm thinking that calling anyone a cyber-rapist is way-harsh. I'm saying that if two people are doing name calling, they are probably both wrong. Admitting I've been known to do some name calling, myself. Lama ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 19:29:11 EDT From: TimandMaryPowers@aol.com Subject: the day after, NJC Hello, The following was sent to another listserv. I know it's something of a breach of etiquette to send material from one listserv to another, but I thought this is so good it deserves an exception. The author is Paul Werner and this is from his journal WOID, issue #32. Mary - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ - -------------------------- Yes, it really is like a funeral. Yesterday, after the explosions and collapse, there were crowds of people, nicely dressed, wandering uptown in the lovely sun of late summer. As at a funeral, there was no anger, not much emotion, really. It was more of a dream for most of us. It was also quiet, respectfully. There were no cars, of course. Today, still, it's very quiet in downtown Manhattan. And we are busy toting up what we've lost, and what we've spared. Disasters like this can show you who you are. As at a death, there are those who acted well. My friend A. J. was working on the ground floor of World Trade One. She managed to get out, and get the people she supervises out. One of them had an asthma attack, and she managed to get him out of there, to a hospital in New Jersey, then back again to New York, thirteen hours later. As at a funeral, there's a lot of facade: trying to be brave; trying to hide your satisfaction, the selfish joys of the survivors, the nervous jokes, the heirs' half-hidden grins. The gloating from the Israel Lobby has been no less obscene than the ill-informed reactions of some Palestinians. In the New York Times, Clyde Haberman's disgusting article, "Do you get it now?" uses this event to justify Israeli murder squads. Renidet usquequaque. What I want to tell those who aren't here, because they don't know: there is no anger, here. We leave that to others. The Governor of Texas may talk of ultimate battles of good and evil, but we know about evil, already. Like death, it's all around us always, and all our victories, for being always temporary, are cherished all the more. Sorry, Governor, Good will not prevail. It's too late for that. Among some tribes of the Northwest Coast it was usual, when someone died, even of natural causes, to raid the other tribes. Against the many Muslims or Arabs in New York there have been few acts of retribution. Being human is not easy, but that is our only victory. Being human is not easy, because it involves more than the gut reaction; more than the fantasy of omnipotence; more than the denial of our own mortality. As Saint Anselm put it almost a thousand years ago: "in our minds there is constant strife between the defense of our desires and the affirmation of the truth." I was listening to a rescue worker who had just pulled someone from the ruins, alive. When that happens, he said, everyone is happy. "Even the dogs get very happy." I think at times like that we'd all like to be dogs: happy one minute, barking the next, always forgetful, never conscious of our own weak selves. For most of us, though, it's too late already. New York, September 12, 2001 Paul T Werner http://theorangepress.com WOID: A journal of visual language ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2001 #400 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?