From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2001 #399 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Wednesday, September 12 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 399 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- RE: why not blame the Jews pt2 NJC ["Chris Marshall" ] Re: Has anyone heard from Emily? [Emily K Gray ] Kay Ashley NJC [Steve Polifka ] to Laurent [Anne Sandstrom ] The day after [RobSher50@aol.com] some good news [Anne Sandstrom ] Empathy for other countries [RobSher50@aol.com] Joni Lines ["William Waddell" ] Personal attacks vs ideological debate (NJC) Not For Shea, Azeem, and Colin [MDESTE1@aol] EVIL SUCKS ["Thom Byrd" ] Give to Red Cross via Amazon [TimandMaryPowers@aol.com] terrorist attacks NJC ["Mike Pritchard" ] njc ["Jenaya Dawe" ] Re: Give to Red Cross via Amazon [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Personal attacks vs ideological debate (NJC) Not For Shea, Azeem, and Colin [Ricw1217] Re: Personal attacks vs ideological debate (NJC) Not For Shea,Azeem, and Colin [colin Subject: RE: why not blame the Jews pt2 NJC Laurent:- > Too bad you cannot see the connection between the attack and history and > causality that led to it. This only seems like one step away from saying "well, with your history, you deserve it". To put my mind at rest, why don't you fully explain what you *mean*, rather than leaving something contentious like that hanging around. It may spare you an awful lot of invective. > Can't a Jew make a commentary without being called names? I don't think *anyone* should, with any degree of sensitivity, really be making a statement like you just did - regardless of their own religion. And the fact that you're using yesterday's events to try and wrest the conversation back to your own agenda is pretty low. I could almost think that your statement above is an accusation of anti-semitism. That'd be novel... - --Chris ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 11:34:58 -0400 From: "Stephen Epstein" Subject: a positive tale NJC I know that there will be, unfortunately, thousands of stories like this one, over the next days, but I wished to share. There is a woman named Pam, in our NYC office- midtown- who I am very close with. She called me last week to invite me to her wedding next June. I am thrilled for her, of course, and have met her fiance Rick, spent time together last winter. Pam is 46 and has been waiting all her life for this knight in shining armour to come to her. They have truly found happiness together. Rick works for Morgan Stanley on the 62nd floor of tour 2 at the WTC. He was in early yesterday as he had a meeting to attend. He saw the first plane hit, and the debris flying. Got on the elevator to go to the ground, and then back up to the 44th floor to his scheduled meeting. Of course they felt the shudder of the 2nd plane hitting the 51st floor above, but had no idea what it was. The ceiling began to crumble and they were most concerned about the flying debris from the first tour coming in the windows. He and his colleagues were able to walk down the 44 floors and get out. 15 blocks later he turned around to see his building crumble. He joined the slow-moving exodus of people going north, and 2 hours later made it to midtown and was safe in Pam's arms. Needless to say, it was a happy night for the both of them, and I was thrilled to receive Pam's call just a short while ago. Prayers to all, Stephen in Vancouver ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 11:39:39 -0400 From: Emily K Gray Subject: Re: Has anyone heard from Emily? courtney and i are OK; in shock; trying to cope. we each know of a number of missing people. yesterday i felt and heard the blasts from my apartment; watched as clouds of smoke billowed down onto our street; felt a shudder as the world trade center collapsed. literally -- my neighbor and i were sitting on my floor, watching it on TV and saying to each other "that's that rumble; that's what it is." it was surreal -- i unpacked all the towels courtney and i have been given as wedding gifts and rolled them all under doors, in windows, to prevent smoke. courtney walked back to brooklyn from midtown; it was a four hour ordeal and many intense sights. i'm holding on here in brooklyn today -- joined a group of hundreds of people out to volunteer time, food, clothes and blood. everyone who can help is out there doing it, it appears. thanks for asking about us -- my thoughts and prayers are with all today as we struggle to get things stabilized. - -- emily - ----- Original Message ----- From: Brian Gross Date: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 7:53 am Subject: Has anyone heard from Emily? > It would seem that our family here is all accounted for, after > yesterday's tragedy, except for Emily and Courtney. > Has anyone heard from her? > > still numb, almost 24 hrs later, > brei > > -- > After twenty-three years you'd think I could find > A way to let you know somehow > That I want to see your smiling face > Forty-five years from now. > > --Stan Rogers ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 11:01:47 -0500 From: Steve Polifka Subject: Kay Ashley NJC Kay, I was so concerned about you, and am glad you are safe! Hugs, Steve in MKE Steve ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 12:19:42 -0400 From: Anne Sandstrom Subject: to Laurent I sign my emails "lots of love" and I mean it from the bottom of my heart. I couldn't even find it in me to give my disease to another human being, no matter what horrific crimes they've committed. But to Laurent, I scream "What the hell's the matter with you!!!! Get off this list!" This list is NOT a repubic in which each individual's rights are protected under the law. This list is NOT a democracy in which the majority rules. This list is a privilege! It is a private space. We are here because of Les Irvin's efforts and generosity. Period. I have no interest in hearing your brand of hateful politics. You want to do something? Good. Shut your mouth, extend your arm and let the Red Cross draw blood from it. Take out your wallet and send real money to help rescue innocent victims. Go to a church, temple, mosque or other place of worship and get down on your knees and be thankful for what you do have, including the privilege of having been allowed to share in a community as loving and giving as this one. I do not hate you. But I am extremely angry that you could possibly think that weilding your vengeful tongue is even appropriate at a time like this. May whoever God is have mercy on your soul. Anne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 12:22:14 EDT From: RobSher50@aol.com Subject: The day after Hi everyone, At this moment in time, I am so thankful for the safety of people on our list that were at ground zero who have sent word that they are okay. I am also saddened by those who have not yet heard from friends and loved ones who are missing. My brother is stationed at Andrews Air Force Base and makes regular trips to the Pentagon. When news came that a hijacked plane crashed into the building, I was frantic that my brother was there. I called my sister in Norfolk, Virginia who had my step sister on the other line, and was also frantic because she could not get an outside line. For some reason, I was able to get a phone call through to the base and spoke to one of his coworkers. She reassured me that he was there and all right. They were not sure if they were going to evacuate the base. My brother sent me an email shortly thereafter letting me know he was all right. They were not allowed to call out. I called my other brother stationed at an Air Force base in Idaho and he was very grateful as he was not allowed to call out. After getting in touch with my wed to call out either. Apparently, this is military protocol when a high security alert is given. My niece, stationed at Offut Air Force Base in Nebraska thanked me and told me that she was also not allowed to call out. After getting in touch with my three brothers and two sisters to let them know that our family was safe, I crumbled emotionally watching the horror of those who were not so fortunate. One of my friends told me that her sister-in-law works in management for American Airlines, and they have been told that in the case of hijackings and terrorist attacks, their airline would probably be targeted because of the symbolism. This came true as they hijacked both American and United flights. One of the flights crashed close to me outside of Pittsburgh. This frightened those in my area and there was a run on the gas stations to fill up our tanks. In almost city in our area, police had to direct traffic because the line to fill up our tanks spilled into the street and blocked oncoming traffic. My older sister wept uncontrollably in her bathroom at work because her daughter, my niece, was supposed to be stationed at the Pentagon. When the orders were changed to Offut AFB in Nebraska, my niece was crushed. She wanted to stay on the East coast with her family. My sister told her there must be a reason why she was supposed to go back to Nebraska. Yesterday's events proved the point with no uncertainty. My daughter's father is New York policeman. She called me worried because being in Connecticut, she could not get a line to New York. for some reason, I was able to, and I was able to confirm that he was in the police office when both WTC buildings collapsed. I just hope that the person I talked to has their timelines right. My fear now is for the safety of my family should we be called to war. I do not want war, but I want this scoundrel and his associates found and punished. It was hard to sleep last night knowing that there were people fighting for their lives beneath the rubble. All I could do was pray and cry to God for their protection. I wish I could give blood, but I am a diabetic. I am grateful for everyone on this list who is safe and sound. I am ashamed of those who would degrade and demean others when asked not to and am asking you to stop this type of behavior immediately. AS we have seen, life is too short for nonsense like this. Sherelle NP: Tapestry by Carole King ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 12:28:43 -0400 From: Anne Sandstrom Subject: some good news Jimmy is ok. He happened to be at the company's other office yesterday. Thank God! And thank you (once again) for all your thoughts and prayers. lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 12:44:31 EDT From: RobSher50@aol.com Subject: Empathy for other countries In this moment of clarity, I feel ashamed of the fact that I did not let the tragedies of terrorist attacks in other countries affect me like what has happened in my own homeland. These evil people have been carrying out similar attacks since 1968 at the Olympics when Israeli athletes were brutally murdered. Somehow, through the years, society has become more detached since it did not happen in our own back yard. I cannot speak for the world in general as I know that there are some who have been consistent in showing uniform abhorrence for acts of terrorism. But it has become increasingly easier to "switch the channel" when something too unpleasant is shown. From this day forward, I want to have show the same disgust for any act of terrorism perpetrated against any person's home soil. I am not embarrassed or ashamed of my country as I believe that any plan so deviously contrived was destined to succeed. It's hard to protect oneself against nameless, faceless cowards. Though I was saddened by the tragic bombings at the two US embassies in Africa, I now have a deeper understanding and appreciation for what they went through and I am glad the US retaliated against such awful attacks. Sherelle ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 12:10:26 -0500 From: "William Waddell" Subject: Joni Lines Taking the town by surprise Stares up empty at the sky And summer goes Falls to the sidewalk like string and brown paper With gangs and girly shows The ghostly garden grows The bedlam of the day The seasons are changing Everyday in everyway Never mind their questions there's no answer for A dream that you love someone A dream that the wars are done Nowhere near the mentioned murder place But sandcastles crumble And hunger is human And humans are hungry For worlds they can't share He is bleeding from the war When all the black cards come you cannot barter The shadow trembles in its wrath, I've robbed its blackness blind And tasted sunlight as my fear came clear to me And so once again you are fightin' us all What time is this To trade the handshake for the fist The wind rushed around in the dirty town And the children let out from the schools But for an ancient injury That has not healed We are stardust We are golden And we've got to get ourselves Back to the garden And I dreamed I saw the bombers Riding shotgun in the sky And they were turning into butterflies Above our nation Fearful when the sky was full of thunder And tearful at the falling of a star An empty space to fill in Well there're so many sinking now You've got to keep thinking You can make it thru these waves They won't give peace a chance That was just a dream some of us had Oh, blackness, blackness dragging me down Come on light the candle in this poor heart of mine "Love is touching souls" Out of touch with the breakdown Of this century You've got to shake your fists at lightning now You've got to roar like forest fire You've got to spread your light like blazes All across the sky They're going to aim the hoses on you Show 'em you won't expire Not till you burn up every passion Not even when you die Everybody's in it for their own gain I feel like I'm sleeping Can you wake me Still I sent up my prayer Everything comes and goes Pleasure moves on too early And trouble leaves too slow Advice and religion-you can't take it You can't seem to believe it In flames our prophet witches Be polite Uprising in me tonight Truth goes up in vapors The steeples lean God goes up the chimney A rebel loves a cause Any man in the world holding out his arm Would soon be made to pay Jesus was a beggar, he was rich in grace Golden in time Cities under the sand Power, ideals and beauty Fading in everyone's hand Every picture has its shadows And it has some source of light Threatened by all things Devil of cruelty Critics of all expression Judges in black and white Saying it's wrong, saying it's right Where some have found their paradise Other's just come to harm A defector from the petty wars In the church they light the candles And the wax rolls down like tears Shine your light on me Miss Liberty I saw a black crow flying In a blue sky We're always keeping score We're always balancing the power "Heart and humor and humility" He said "Will lighten up your heavy load" And you couldn't see a city On that marbled bowling ball Or a forest or a highway Or me here least of all While Muslims stick up Washington ... I nearly broke down and cried Here in Good-Old-God-Save-America The home of the brave and the free The eagle and the serpent are at war in me What strange prizes these battles bring I heard there was no sickness And no toil or danger Just mercy and plenty Where peaceful waters flow Of the darkness in men's minds What can you say That wasn't marked by history Or the T.V. news today Ghosts of the future Phantoms of the past Love suffers long-- Love is kind!-- Enduring all things-- Love has no evil in mind Wouldn't they like their peace While madmen sit up building bombs There's evil in this land Fuck it! And he's not heaven sent I've been all around the world Mission Impossible Fighting among ourselves Study war no more Lay down your arms "They gave me a gun," he said "They gave me a mission For the power and the glory-- They train you to kill-- To be a pin on some map-- Some vicarious thrill-- Who you gonna get to do the dirty work When all the slaves are free? Hoping and hoping As if by my weak faith The spirit of this world Would heal and rise And the wrath has finally taken form Just the strong doing what they can And the weak suffering what they must? This massive mess we're in! The hero cannot make the change Every bristling shaft of pride Church or nation Team or tribe Every notion we subscribe to Is just a borderline And you praise barbarity In this illusionary place-- Let me speak, let me spit out my bitterness-- What have I done to you? That you make everything I dread and everything I fear come true? This time you went too far Bigger beasts abound And they kick this world around At this crazy speed With violence and greed Bless us, don't let us lose the drift You know, Happiness is the best facelift. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:13:45 EDT From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Personal attacks vs ideological debate (NJC) Not For Shea, Azeem, and Colin I ask that Debra Shea Azeem and Colin and Patrick Leader not read this post. If they choose to do so I ask that they not comment. Lets see how well they obey anothers request since so many have stated emphatically that thats verboten to disregard someone elses requests. First a little matter of who contacted who first: Debra Shea contacted me first. proof delivered. MDESTE1@aol.com wrote: > > Colin is just loaded with compliments as usual. It must be dark in there > where his head is located. There you go again, describing yourself while trying to insult someone else. > Marcel. who has been forcefiully begged to not send anything to Mr. > Personality. Begged? Really? Looked to me like a definite and polite request, another one, after many such requests that you've chosen to ignore. I'm amazed Colin can still be polite about it. You don't deserve it. Debra Shea>>> She wasnt writing to the list as evidenced by her addressing me directly. She was writing to me. I responded to the above. Ok you have all had your fun attacking Marcel Deste as a human being. Even my wife. Are you all proud or do you now all go and wash your hands with Patrick Leader. I get between 250 to 400 emails per day. Some are digests of economic news and political news. I would stack my information input and real fact input up against anyone on this list. I read Arabic newspapers as well as Euro and Western and even Russian newspapers and editorial opinions. I frequently visit congressional testimony archives and National Security and defense websites. I have always had no restrictions to email that is sent me even from my ideological adversaries. I read them all. Some I skim but I see all the ones in which I am mentioned. I have always believed that every person is entitled to his own beliefs. Clearly and categorically not everyone on this list believes that. That doesnt mean that their beliefs are free from criticism. Mine included.My only "crime" has been to want to keep personal and potentially incendiary ideological debates from intruding into everyone elses life since the actual purpose of the JMDL is music not Ideological Jihads. Consideration for other people is bad. Mea cupla. In fact they believe the opposit. So Im a "cyber-rapist" and "cyber-terrorist". After yesterday Im not sure many of you understand the meaning of the word if you use it to describe me. All I have ever done is to challenge political or ideological ideas. I have never called Debra Shea a bad person. Shes a Marxist ideologically but I have never called her names. Just differed with her World Views. Another of her supporters said "Im just as big a pinko Communist as you" to Ms. Shea. Is that person a cyber-terrorist. If not why not. Sarcasm directed at anothers political views is not insulting their wife. I fully realize that the communists on this list hate my ideas. When real Communists have taken over other countries in this century mass murders of their ideological opponents were the very first thing they did. Hungary, Poland, the Steppes States, Ukraine etc. Its all part of the mindset of those who choose to supplant facts and reality with myths and fantasy world views. They MUST eliminate their intellectual adversaries just as they want to get rid of anyone who will challenge their views. Like Communism and Marxist Economic models. This recent event in New York is exhibit A. I provide a couple of quotes from todays Chronicle. A very liberal newspaper that attacks George Bush every single day: SF Chronicle. Morning edition. Headline: US Intelligence failed to predict terrorists actions. "How such a large scale coordinated effort went undetected by law enforcement and Intelligence service is incomprehensible except that for the last decade we have allowed our capabilities to lapse in the one area we need most, human intelligence" Scott Ritter former head of the UN inspection team in Iraq. Page A-7 {{NB. Mr Ritter also testified at congressional hearings that the buildings bombed by the Clinton Administration in Baghdad during the impeachment hearings were all known to have been abandoned}. Wag the dog. "Former Vice president Al Gore headed a White House Commission on Aviation safety but there is no mention in this report of the prospect of terrorists hijacking planes and crashing them into buildings" Page A-7 "Two former CIA operatives with long recent experience in counter terrorism program for the Middle east assert that the agency was virtually dismantled (during the Clinton administration)." Page A-7 " They didnt dismantle it by taking people out. They dismantled it by putting people in who knew nothing about it, to run it, (political appointees) people who have never even been overseas....The branch chiefs have never been to the Middle East, dont speak Arabic, dont speak Persian". Page A-7 >>>> So when I see all the hand wringing about yesterday and this terrorist attack act of war it came as no suprise to me. Many of you have attacked me for being a Clinton "hater". Yesterday is why. I have good reason to. Unless you are today waving a Palestinian flag today and celebrating along with the Palestinians you do to. Things like yesterday dont happen by accident. They have been warned about many times by the same people who are quoted above. Are they Clinton "haters" for warning us or are they simply people who know different "facts". If they were on this list they would be my friends and Azeems and Colins and Debras enemies. I see this person Laurent posted the obvious and again is insuilted by Colin. Colins big point in the middle east thread was that "both sides" are doing bad things. Really. Equal deal huh? Well Colin when have the Israelis ever done what the Islamics did yesterday. Attack some distant country and murder 10-20,000 people. Were they justified? Am I impertinent for stating the obvious? Colin is wrong. Dead wrong. And he should admit how wrong he has been for equating the two sides. But he wont. Yesterday was a suicide bombing. Exactly what has been happening in Israel. For two or six months. Bigger but the same. The United States launched the Bosnia campaign against Christians to stop the killing of Muslims. Islam ever do that. The Koran clearly states that suicide is a sin. Look that one up. It also clearly states that Muslims can marry Jews. Yet these madmen constantly use this book as their justification for New York. But I digress.... My point is this... ideological differences are what life is all about. But some of you seem to simply despise anyone knowledgeable to challenge your views. You dismiss any fact you disagree with as "opinions" as if the Isreali war with Jordan in 1948 for instance is an "opinion" as opposed to a fact. You castigate and villify the person as opposed to that persons facts and do so with your own. But you also have to realize that your choice of doing so has consequences like yesterday. When you dismiss critics of the Clinton administration as simply "hate mongers" (as opposed to an Administration that dismantled our intelligence agency) it means you accept the responsibility if they were right and you were wrong. Why should Azeem be speechless. After all he has been busy attacking Laurent who has simply been pointing out the mentality of Israels enemies which is what was manifested in New York. The videos of the Palestinian celebrations are in Azeems and Colins lap not laurents. Maybe if Azeem wasnt too busy claiming "both sides" are equally bad and pondering where his view inexhorably led if applied to geopolitics he might respect Laurents position which has been categorically vindicated with the blood of 10,000+ New Yorkers. It wasnt "sarcasm" that struck the World Trade Center for all of you who think that sarcasm is the worlds greatest crime. It was the same suicide bombers who have plagued Israel ever since Yassir Arafat (whose wife was kissed by Hillary Clinton after she said that the Jews were murdering palestinian children by poisoning their drinking water-another fact (the kiss not the poison)reported in the New York Times) turned down the extrordinary offer of Ehud Barak. Whats the point of all this political stuff. Simply stated many of you have closed your minds to reality. You are so blinded by hatred of certain ideas that you dont even recognize that your hatred exists. And you hate the poeple who have the ideas you hate. You feed upon each others like mindedness to the extent that when the consequences of your own views is manifested you neither recognize it nor do you accept responsibility for it. Laurent has just as much right to post his views as Colin does to tell us about dog penises and dog venereal diseases which he seems motivated to do frequently. Without a peep from any of you. There is absolutely no place for the personal attacks you have all engaged in and you have done that. And why because as the political facts demonstrate you arent always right. You valued "pro choice" over National Security in election after election. What happened yesterday is the price. The Middle east experts statement (not Marcels) shows why that statement is true. His statement also applies to Chinese espionage activities from 1992 to 2000 which we will also have to deal with. 1500 experienced fighter pilots have resigned from the Air Force simply because of Tailhook. While they were punished you (not me) let the actual predator in the oval office skate. Not that they did anything but because by simply being there Pat Schroeders jihad had ended their careers. There are consequences to this liberal fixation of the political over the hard reality of National Security. If we now need our best fighter pilots to now go after the terrorists in a foreign country we wont have them because of Pat Schroeders war against "sexual harrassment" something Juanita Broderick was ignored for claiming. So dont wring your hands over New York. Open your eyes. Years ago your liberal "We dont need no stinkin military spending" ancestors in Congress starved the military of funding because there was just no way that this Japan place could ever touch our shores.The draft passed by one vote in congress one WEEK before Pearl Harbor. How many of you listers have said we should cut defense spending because we dont need it. The responsibility for yesterday rests with those who took away this country's ability to know when it was going to happen. See the above Chronicle quotes for the person responsible. Pardon the sarcasm but it isnt Rush Limbaugh. Its whoever put political appointees in charge of our lives instead of experts because the experts had different political views. We live with the consequences of our views and our votes. That someone differs with you does not make them wrong and you right. Events do that. The one good thing that has come out of all this for me is to know who are the people who truly have hate in their hearts. people who think sarcasm is worse than negligence. You all saw me in person in Topsfield for three days. Did you see a person who hates anyone? Did I say one word of negativity to anyone? Was there anyone I didnt show total respect for even my political adversaries. On the other hand you hate my words or ideology when political topics are on the list. If you have read this post you must have some introspection to consider. This is a free country. Lastly I wish to point out one last thing. God broke out in Congress today. All those staunch foes of prayer in schools were all talking about God. God bless America. God Bless this country. God bless us all. The session was commenced with a fervent and long prayer to God. Imagine that. Not one Democrat shriveled up and died. It even happened on Public Property. Wheres the ACLU. Even Tom Daschle and Richard Gephardt who will fight to the death to keep prayer out of schools were cheerleaders for God. Tells you something doesnt it. They didnt pray to the trial lawyers. They didnt pray to Barabara Streisand. They didnt even pray to the Government. For those of you die hards who still think Bush is crazy and a missle defense shield is bunko I want you to just imagine how you will feel if someday a single missle we know will hit LA in 30 minutes is on its way and we must sit helplessly and watch. Just imagine that what it would be like if what hit the world trade center yesterday had a warhead. Because the intelligence agencies were deemed "too expensive with children going hungry" by Clinton we didnt know. But what if we did. Everyone is calling what happened yesterday "unimaginable". To me not doing everything possible to make sure it doesnt happen again is. Is that idea to be deemed "creepy". If Shea, Azeem, and Colin comment on this post you will know they violate all the rules they and others have attacked me for not respecting. I have categorically demanded that they delete my posts. Time for certain people to live with the rules they make or be exposed as hypocrites. Marcel deste ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:18:51 -0400 From: "Thom Byrd" Subject: EVIL SUCKS I can't evn put my mind around the events of yesterday*I pray for the victims*and the perpetraters* thom _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:20:52 EDT From: TimandMaryPowers@aol.com Subject: Give to Red Cross via Amazon hello, I am new to the JMDL. I've been on the list for about a month. I really enjoy it. I work in DC near the Pentagon and could see it burning from the next door office window. It was quite a scary sight, although I was never in any danger. I feel very bad for everyone who lost friends and family. For those of you who've bought from Amazon, I just wanted to let you know that they have any easy system set up where you click to donate money to the Red Cross, and they use the credit card information you've already entered into Amazon. I appreciate the chance to do this because my husband has hepatitis C and so I've learned I am not eligible to donate blood. I hope all are well, Mary ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 19:26:28 +0200 From: "Mike Pritchard" Subject: terrorist attacks NJC A couple of weeks ago I saw part of a TV programme while I was setting up the video to tape the following programme. It was a re-run of "The World at War" and just happened to be about the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the behind-the-scenes politicking between Churchill, Stalin and (I suppose) Truman. The incredible thing for me was the interview with the pilot of 'Enola Gay' (his name escapes me) who talked with evident pride of the preparation for the mission. I'm summarising but the bottom line of his recollection immediately after dropping the bomb and seeing the mushroom cloud rising over Hiroshima was that of 'a satisfaction of a job well done'. Half a million people (civilians mostly) killed and all he felt was pride in the accuracy of his bombing. My girlfriend and I watched this in disbelief and thought 'how can anyone feel this way after wiping a whole city and its population off the map?' Does it make it easier killing all these people from a height of however many thousands of feet it was? Our reaction was, and is, that that man was scum, a murderer and a war criminal, although he was 'only carrying out orders'. Are there no orders too barbaric to be followed? And to follow up with Nagasaki. Yesterday was the national day of Catalonia and therefore a holiday for my girlfriend and I. We were able to have lunch together, a rare treat for us, and just as we were about to start our 'siesta' the news broke on the TV. We were transfixed by the images and it was hours before we were able to switch it off. It was appalling and unforgivable and our hearts go out to our friends in NYC and their friends and families and everyone affected by this barbarity. Nevertheless, I had a flashback to the Enola Gay pilot and supposed that somewhere out there wherever yesterday's attacks were planned someone must be sitting back in satisfaction, feeling proud about 'a job well done'. I wonder if the Enola Gay pilot, if he is still alive, would recognise this sentiment. I imagine that these comments may upset some people and I apologise in advance for that. It is not my intention to offend, I swear. War is war and peace is peace and there is no comparison between Hiroshima 1945 and NYC/Washington 2001. This is probably the first time that an attack of this magnitude has happened on the US mainland, but to my parents' generation the London blitz and the firebombing of Dresden and Leipzig are real memories, not 'Mars Attacks' FX. Please don't get me wrong. I am appalled that the USA, as perpetrators of many illegal and immoral activities (The Contras, Kissinger's part in Allende's downfall, 'Agent Oranging' in Vietnam, and a long etc.) has become the victim of yesterday's terrorism, but it was to be expected that if the USA continued to throw its weight around as the planet's geopolitical sheriff, someone would one day perpetrate an outrage like this. It is perhaps the scale of the attacks that is most shocking. War is war and peace is peace, I hear you say. I know, I know, but it shows again that nobody is safe from terrorism. Fanatics cannot be stopped, not even by the world's mightiest military force. The only solution is a political, not a military solution. "Jaw Jaw is better than War War" as Churchill said. All the listers talk of love, peace and reconciliation while the press is full of vengeance and retaliation. Where do we go from here? Sorry again if these thoughts seem out of place. We can't help what we think, or know why we think it. Mike ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 10:11:41 -0700 From: "Jenaya Dawe" Subject: njc Thank you to those who are sharing their thoughts and feelings about the attacks. I'm sick to death (though relieved that many of "ours" are ok) and your words have been a great comfort. I've tried to write, but can't verbalize. Shame on you who are more interested in blame, politics, and retribution. Hate is what killed thousands of people yesterday. I am thoroughly disgusted. You snipe so steady You snub so snide So ripe and ready To diminish and deride! You're so quick to condescend My opinionated friend All you deface all you defend Is just a borderline Just a borderline ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:32:56 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Give to Red Cross via Amazon <> Hello, Mary, and welcome to the JMDL! Obviously, things now are a little wierd, and thanks for your message regarding Amazon and the Red Cross. Our company set up an account with them such that they will match every dollar we as employees donate. They made a substantial donation as well on top of that. For today anyway, I'm proud to be a part of this corporation. So, how long have you been a Joni fan? Favorite album? A Joni song that has a special meaning for you? Just trying to get back to some semblance of a garden... Bob NP (Now Playing): Whiskeytown, "16 Days" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 14:23:00 EDT From: Ricw1217@aol.com Subject: Re: Personal attacks vs ideological debate (NJC) Not For Shea, Azeem, and Colin you really need to resign from this list marcel. do it now. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 19:34:00 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: Personal attacks vs ideological debate (NJC) Not For Shea,Azeem, and Colin A lot of untrue waffle. For a start, Debra's reply to your rude mail to me was ON LIST. You wrote it to the list, she responded. No one has ever asked you to stop replying to mail on list. You have been asked to stop writing your abusive mails off list to members. There is a difference. a big difference. Any mail sent to the list can be replied to. Your attempt at turning this around is childish. Do you really think people will fall for this? And as others will attest to, it is not just Debra and I that you abuse in this way. Until about 18 months ago, I enjoyed getting emails from and considered you a nice person. Then it all changed. i don't know why. Also, as far as your politics go, i don't give a toss what you believe in. I don't even know what you believe in. Why? Because you are so damn rude about it, your message is lost. To head this message 'personal attacks vs ideaological debate' is so laughable for it is YOU who is into the persoanl attacks. You just cannot seem to help yourself and worse, you refuse to recognize your bad behaviour. There are none so blind as those that refuse to see. the only reason I have asked you not to write to me privately is because you are abusive, no other reason. and like abusive people, you refuse to see it, you blame all of us here on the list instead. What you call sarcasm is not. It is abuse. simple. (besides which, isn't sarcasm supposed to be the lowest form of wit?) As for Patrick's comment, I can see why that was so hurtful. But I read it like this: I would feel dirty too if I prentended friendship towards someone who i knew to be abusive and who had abused me. Maybe that is not what he meant but is what i took from it. This list really is not for you to flaunt your ego and for you to batter so many people. You are as entitled as anyone else, to share your views. Many, including me, do. What we do not do is name call, belittle and genrally be really nasty. if you can find it within yourself to stop being so mean, the trouble will cease. I am not surprised you support Layrent and that you single me out for my comments to him. Others felt exactly the same way. they way he used yesterdays anguish to further his points is disgraceful, just as the way you twist things is. As for your comment about this being Clinton's fault, your NEWS SHOWS yesterday were actually blaming the domestic flight people because they did not want the heightened security because your countrymean did not want to be held up getting to and from their destinations. If you could alter the way you write to people, if you can stop with the abuse, then this 'harrassment' of you, as you see it, will stop. It would have stopped long ago if people hadn't decided that to ignore it was best. A bit like trying to ignore an elephant in the house and walk around it. I believe in human nature being good. I have hope. Perhaps eventually this breast neating and abuse will stop. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:25:25 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: terrrorist attacks -mike pritchard-njc I absolutely cannot believe that posting. I don't know if the pilot of the Enola Gay was a hero but I do know that he did what he had to do and had good reason to do it. We were not talking about an attack on the World Trade Center. We are talking about World War II. Millions of people had been killed already. Remember all the people dead in Nazi death camps. Remember all the people and Americans who had already died at the hands of the Japanese? My uncle was languishing in a Japanese prisoner of war camp at the very time. He told me a story about a woman who used to walk by their camp everyday. She had a small, emaciated dog and all of them would foam at the mouth wanting to eat it, they were so hungry. What about the Battan death march. Atrocities everywhere. Are you aware of how many more people would have died if they had not dropped those bombs? The Japanese had been asked to surrender and refused. That war had to be ended. I am not happy about the people in those cities but they had no choice as far as I can see and I am aghast that you can now try to look back and somehow make fun or criticize the choices they made then. That was a simple case of evil and it had to be stopped. Are you aware of how many so called innocent Japanese would have died if we had had to take over their island? I, for one, think those men were heroes and the pilot of that plane was a hero. We cannot possibly imagine how horrible that war was and it is easy to sit behind a computer, or over dinner, now and second guess those people and their actions then. If it were not for those men and their actions, you might not have the freedom to criticize them that you do now. There is absolutely no reason or justification for comparing the men of our military in world war II to the monsters who performed yesterday. Shame on you. Mack ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 11:31:12 -0700 From: "Brenda J. Walker" Subject: Re: Personal attacks vs ideological debate - FOR EVERYONE I'd like to ask that we have a moratorium on this type of discussion (personal attacks and political debates) for the rest of the week. I have a cousin who is a Manhattan cop and a friend who worked for Morgan Stanley who are still not accounted for. If either of them has perished, the political debate won't bring them back and is frankly, infuriating. The list has been a light because of the empathetic wishes and encouraging reports. It would be nice if it could continue to serve that primary purpose for just a little while longer. Brenda On 12 Sep 2001, at 13:13, MDESTE1@aol.com wrote: > I ask that Debra Shea Azeem and Colin and Patrick Leader not read this post. > If they choose to do so I ask that they not comment. Lets see how well they > obey anothers request since so many have stated emphatically that thats > verboten to disregard someone elses requests. > > First a little matter of who contacted who first: > > Debra Shea contacted me first. proof delivered. > > MDESTE1@aol.com wrote: > > > > Colin is just loaded with compliments as usual. It must be dark in there > > where his head is located. > > There you go again, describing yourself while trying to insult someone > else. > > > Marcel. who has been forcefiully begged to not send anything to Mr. > > Personality. > > Begged? Really? Looked to me like a definite and polite request, another > one, after many such requests that you've chosen to ignore. I'm amazed > Colin can still be polite about it. You don't deserve it. > > Debra Shea>>> > > She wasnt writing to the list as evidenced by her addressing me directly. She > was writing to me. I responded to the above. > > Ok you have all had your fun attacking Marcel Deste as a human being. Even my > wife. Are you all proud or do you now all go and wash your hands with Patrick > Leader. > > I get between 250 to 400 emails per day. Some are digests of economic news > and political news. I would stack my information input and real fact input up > against anyone on this list. I read Arabic newspapers as well as Euro and > Western and even Russian newspapers and editorial opinions. I frequently > visit congressional testimony archives and National Security and defense > websites. > > I have always had no restrictions to email that is sent me even from my > ideological adversaries. I read them all. Some I skim but I see all the ones > in which I am mentioned. I have always believed that every person is entitled > to his own beliefs. Clearly and categorically not everyone on this list > believes that. That doesnt mean that their beliefs are free from criticism. > Mine included.My only "crime" has been to want to keep personal and > potentially incendiary ideological debates from intruding into everyone elses > life since the actual purpose of the JMDL is music not Ideological Jihads. > Consideration for other people is bad. Mea cupla. > > In fact they believe the opposit. So Im a "cyber-rapist" and > "cyber-terrorist". After yesterday Im not sure many of you understand the > meaning of the word if you use it to describe me. All I have ever done is to > challenge political or ideological ideas. I have never called Debra Shea a > bad person. Shes a Marxist ideologically but I have never called her names. > Just differed with her World Views. Another of her supporters said "Im just > as big a pinko Communist as you" to Ms. Shea. Is that person a > cyber-terrorist. If not why not. > > Sarcasm directed at anothers political views is not insulting their wife. > > I fully realize that the communists on this list hate my ideas. When real > Communists have taken over other countries in this century mass murders of > their ideological opponents were the very first thing they did. Hungary, > Poland, the Steppes States, Ukraine etc. Its all part of the mindset of those > who choose to supplant facts and reality with myths and fantasy world views. > They MUST eliminate their intellectual adversaries just as they want to get > rid of anyone who will challenge their views. Like Communism and Marxist > Economic models. This recent event in New York is exhibit A. I provide a > couple of quotes from todays Chronicle. A very liberal newspaper that attacks > George Bush every single day: > > SF Chronicle. Morning edition. > Headline: US Intelligence failed to predict terrorists actions. > > "How such a large scale coordinated effort went undetected by law enforcement > and Intelligence service is incomprehensible except that for the last decade > we have allowed our capabilities to lapse in the one area we need most, human > intelligence" Scott Ritter former head of the UN inspection team in Iraq. > Page A-7 > > {{NB. Mr Ritter also testified at congressional hearings that the buildings > bombed by the Clinton Administration in Baghdad during the impeachment > hearings were all known to have been abandoned}. Wag the dog. > > "Former Vice president Al Gore headed a White House Commission on Aviation > safety but there is no mention in this report of the prospect of terrorists > hijacking planes and crashing them into buildings" Page A-7 > > "Two former CIA operatives with long recent experience in counter terrorism > program for the Middle east assert that the agency was virtually dismantled > (during the Clinton administration)." Page A-7 > > " They didnt dismantle it by taking people out. They dismantled it by putting > people in who knew nothing about it, to run it, (political appointees) people > who have never even been overseas....The branch chiefs have never been to the > Middle East, dont speak Arabic, dont speak Persian". Page A-7 > >>>> > > So when I see all the hand wringing about yesterday and this terrorist attack > act of war it came as no suprise to me. Many of you have attacked me for > being a Clinton "hater". Yesterday is why. I have good reason to. Unless you > are today waving a Palestinian flag today and celebrating along with the > Palestinians you do to. Things like yesterday dont happen by accident. They > have been warned about many times by the same people who are quoted above. > Are they Clinton "haters" for warning us or are they simply people who know > different "facts". If they were on this list they would be my friends and > Azeems and Colins and Debras enemies. > > I see this person Laurent posted the obvious and again is insuilted by Colin. > Colins big point in the middle east thread was that "both sides" are doing > bad things. Really. Equal deal huh? Well Colin when have the Israelis ever > done what the Islamics did yesterday. Attack some distant country and murder > 10-20,000 people. Were they justified? Am I impertinent for stating the > obvious? Colin is wrong. Dead wrong. And he should admit how wrong he has > been for equating the two sides. But he wont. Yesterday was a suicide > bombing. Exactly what has been happening in Israel. For two or six months. > Bigger but the same. > > The United States launched the Bosnia campaign against Christians to stop the > killing of Muslims. Islam ever do that. The Koran clearly states that suicide > is a sin. Look that one up. It also clearly states that Muslims can marry > Jews. Yet these madmen constantly use this book as their justification for > New York. But I digress.... > > My point is this... ideological differences are what life is all about. But > some of you seem to simply despise anyone knowledgeable to challenge your > views. You dismiss any fact you disagree with as "opinions" as if the Isreali > war with Jordan in 1948 for instance is an "opinion" as opposed to a fact. > You castigate and villify the person as opposed to that persons facts and do > so with your own. > > But you also have to realize that your choice of doing so has consequences > like yesterday. When you dismiss critics of the Clinton administration as > simply "hate mongers" (as opposed to an Administration that dismantled our > intelligence agency) it means you accept the responsibility if they were > right and you were wrong. Why should Azeem be speechless. After all he has > been busy attacking Laurent who has simply been pointing out the mentality of > Israels enemies which is what was manifested in New York. The videos of the > Palestinian celebrations are in Azeems and Colins lap not laurents. Maybe if > Azeem wasnt too busy claiming "both sides" are equally bad and pondering > where his view inexhorably led if applied to geopolitics he might respect > Laurents position which has been categorically vindicated with the blood of > 10,000+ New Yorkers. It wasnt "sarcasm" that struck the World Trade Center > for all of you who think that sarcasm is the worlds greatest crime. > > It was the same suicide bombers who have plagued Israel ever since Yassir > Arafat (whose wife was kissed by Hillary Clinton after she said that the Jews > were murdering palestinian children by poisoning their drinking water-another > fact (the kiss not the poison)reported in the New York Times) turned down the > extrordinary offer of Ehud Barak. > > Whats the point of all this political stuff. Simply stated many of you have > closed your minds to reality. You are so blinded by hatred of certain ideas > that you dont even recognize that your hatred exists. And you hate the poeple > who have the ideas you hate. You feed upon each others like mindedness to the > extent that when the consequences of your own views is manifested you neither > recognize it nor do you accept responsibility for it. Laurent has just as > much right to post his views as Colin does to tell us about dog penises and > dog venereal diseases which he seems motivated to do frequently. Without a > peep from any of you. > > There is absolutely no place for the personal attacks you have all engaged in > and you have done that. And why because as the political facts demonstrate > you arent always right. You valued "pro choice" over National Security in > election after election. What happened yesterday is the price. The Middle > east experts statement (not Marcels) shows why that statement is true. His > statement also applies to Chinese espionage activities from 1992 to 2000 > which we will also have to deal with. 1500 experienced fighter pilots have > resigned from the Air Force simply because of Tailhook. While they were > punished you (not me) let the actual predator in the oval office skate. Not > that they did anything but because by simply being there Pat Schroeders jihad > had ended their careers. There are consequences to this liberal fixation of > the political over the hard reality of National Security. If we now need our > best fighter pilots to now go after the terrorists in a foreign country we > wont have them because of Pat Schroeders war against "sexual harrassment" > something Juanita Broderick was ignored for claiming. > > So dont wring your hands over New York. Open your eyes. Years ago your > liberal "We dont need no stinkin military spending" ancestors in Congress > starved the military of funding because there was just no way that this Japan > place could ever touch our shores.The draft passed by one vote in congress > one WEEK before Pearl Harbor. How many of you listers have said we should cut > defense spending because we dont need it. The responsibility for yesterday > rests with those who took away this country's ability to know when it was > going to happen. See the above Chronicle quotes for the person responsible. > Pardon the sarcasm but it isnt Rush Limbaugh. Its whoever put political > appointees in charge of our lives instead of experts because the experts had > different political views. > > We live with the consequences of our views and our votes. > > That someone differs with you does not make them wrong and you right. > Events do that. > > The one good thing that has come out of all this for me is to know who are > the people who truly have hate in their hearts. people who think sarcasm is > worse than negligence. You all saw me in person in Topsfield for three days. > Did you see a person who hates anyone? Did I say one word of negativity to > anyone? Was there anyone I didnt show total respect for even my political > adversaries. On the other hand you hate my words or ideology when political > topics are on the list. If you have read this post you must have some > introspection to consider. This is a free country. > > Lastly I wish to point out one last thing. God broke out in Congress today. > All those staunch foes of prayer in schools were all talking about God. God > bless America. God Bless this country. God bless us all. The session was > commenced with a fervent and long prayer to God. Imagine that. Not one > Democrat shriveled up and died. It even happened on Public Property. Wheres > the ACLU. Even Tom Daschle and Richard Gephardt who will fight to the death > to keep prayer out of schools were cheerleaders for God. Tells you something > doesnt it. They didnt pray to the trial lawyers. They didnt pray to Barabara > Streisand. They didnt even pray to the Government. > > For those of you die hards who still think Bush is crazy and a missle defense > shield is bunko I want you to just imagine how you will feel if someday a > single missle we know will hit LA in 30 minutes is on its way and we must sit > helplessly and watch. Just imagine that what it would be like if what hit the > world trade center yesterday had a warhead. Because the intelligence agencies > were deemed "too expensive with children going hungry" by Clinton we didnt > know. But what if we did. Everyone is calling what happened yesterday > "unimaginable". To me not doing everything possible to make sure it doesnt > happen again is. Is that idea to be deemed "creepy". > > If Shea, Azeem, and Colin comment on this post you will know they violate all > the rules they and others have attacked me for not respecting. I have > categorically demanded that they delete my posts. Time for certain people to > live with the rules they make or be exposed as hypocrites. Marcel deste ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2001 #399 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?