From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2001 #395 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Tuesday, September 11 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 395 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Be kind [dsk ] Lou Reed ["Kate Bennett" ] RE: Talk to the hand ["Chris Marshall" ] RE: Talk to the hand ["Chris Marshall" ] Re: Be kind [AzeemAK@aol.com] Question for Nuriel [Leslie Mixon ] RE: Be kind (NJC) ["Deb Messling" ] Re: A musical tour of the UK (NJC) ["Paul Castle" ] Re: Question for Nuriel [Nuriel Tobias ] Re: marcel (njc) [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Be kind [RoseMJoy@aol.com] RE: [Jonifest2001] Divine intervention? [Anne Sandstrom ] Re: marcel (njc) [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Re: Question for Nuriel [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Snakebite erratum, NJC ["Laurent Olszer" ] NJC - Plane Crashes in World Trade Center [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: NJC - Plane Crashes in World Trade Center [RoseMJoy@aol.com] breaking news NJC ["Garret" ] Re: breaking news NJC ["Garret" ] World Trade Center terrorist attack [M.Russell@iaea.org] Re: World Trade Center terrorist attack [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Re: breaking news NJC [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Re: breaking news NJC ["Garret" ] RE: World Trade Center terrorist attack [M.Russell@iaea.org] SEND UP YOUR PRAYERS ... ["Lori R. Fye" ] Re: Be kind [Michael Paz ] Re: Be kind [Michael Paz ] Re: marcel (njc) (md) [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] God help us and protect us ["Kakki" ] RE: breaking news NJC ["Chris Marshall" ] Re: SEND UP YOUR PRAYERS ... (NJC) [cvickery@danielrealty.com] Re: God help us and protect us [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Thank you ["Sharon L. Buffington" ] Re: God help us and protect us ["Kakki" ] NYC & DC (NJC - like it matters) ["Leslie Ross" ] Behavior [MGVal@aol.com] RE: God help us and protect us ["Chris Marshall" ] Re: God help us and protect us [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Re: is this it? ["Kakki" ] bombings ["Dolphie Bush" ] Re: is this it? ["Stephen Epstein" ] Re: Behavior - NJC [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: is this it? [FMYFL@aol.com] NYC's Folks checking in ["Michael Paz" ] Re: Behavior - NJC [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Re: NYC's Folks checking in ["Michael Paz" ] Re: is this it? [Mark Domyancich ] Re: John Cale [Reuben3rd@aol.com] Re: NYC's Folks checking in [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: naked it the woods with art [Reuben3rd@aol.com] Re: John Cale [Jerry Notaro ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 03:18:26 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: Be kind Who is doing the name-calling, Michael? Who is being unkind, without provocation? Who has done exactly as he pleases, among other things sending insulting private emails even after numerous requests to not correspond privately with him, and who has done that for years? I can appreciate that you and Marcel are pals. However, I think you need to at least consider the answers to those questions before you send a message that implies we are all doing something wrong. That is not the case. Frustration? No, it's anger that people are feeling because such behavior has gone on for years. It's especially jarring in a community that prides itself on being so loving. If you don't see anything wrong with the private post I forwarded to the list earlier this evening (just receiving it is rudeness enough; the insults it contains show very clearly who does the name-calling), or anything wrong with the sneering message from a while ago that Marcel wrote to me and posted to the list (and those are just the two examples that are public), then you're not willing to look, and you might as well admit that rather than give us all a speech about olive branches. Kate's "be kind" message seems to be an attempt to sort all this out, and I can respect anyone trying to do that. Your message is an attempt to cover it up and that plays right into the hands of your "friend". People wonder how abuse happens in "real" life. This is how. People keep quiet. People look the other way. People are charmed enough to not even be willing to listen to the people who say they are being harmed, even when there's evidence. I am incredibly grateful to the people who have been brave enough to speak bluntly and honestly about what they see is happening now, and know has been happening for years, because once things are looked at, there's a chance that the situation will improve. For anyone that wants to cover this over, no, not this time. Debra Shea Michael Paz wrote: > > Brothers and sisters! This is the way (Thank you Kate) to address this > issue. Name calling does nothing, but reduce the situation further (as in > some earlier emails). I truly understand everyones frustration in the matter > because I know Mark (who THINKS he's Marcel) and none of the names fit what > I am hearing tonight. I think it's not time to bring out the hammers and the > boards and the nails, but the olive branches and flowers to share. > > Love > > Paz > > NP-If You Can-Jack Neilson ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 00:31:18 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Lou Reed "wondering what Lou Reed will sing, which leads me to picturing him being at Joni's tribute. That would have been interesting... how about him singing Nathan LaFraneer? He'd make it so scary no one would go in a cab again" ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 10:12:19 +0100 From: "Chris Marshall" Subject: RE: Talk to the hand Nuriel said:- > 2. a canadian cat painter called me last night and asked me > why no one at the jmdl is interested in talking about her. Oh, I dunno about no interest. Think she'd pain my two cats from a couple of decent photographs? What do you reckon... about $50 each? :-) - --Chris ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 10:18:08 +0100 From: "Chris Marshall" Subject: RE: Talk to the hand Sorry, that was meant to be NJC. - --Chris ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 06:14:25 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: Be kind In a message dated 11/09/01 05:53:56 GMT Daylight Time, jmichaelpaz@telocity.com writes: << Brothers and sisters! This is the way (Thank you Kate) to address this issue. Name calling does nothing, but reduce the situation further (as in some earlier emails). I truly understand everyones frustration in the matter because I know Mark (who THINKS he's Marcel) and none of the names fit what I am hearing tonight. I think it's not time to bring out the hammers and the boards and the nails, but the olive branches and flowers to share. >> Dear Michael, It's all very well preaching love, but Marcel is spreading hate, poisoning the list and the inboxes of those he harrasses privately. I for one am not asking anyone to shun their friends or to hate them; however it sometimes comes to the point where we have to say "what you did there was not OK". If you think that Marcel's private post to Debra was OK, well, I'll be shocked and amazed. Maybe you dislike it as much as I do; however, if nobody said so then Marcel would think his behaviour was acceptable to everyone. I am aware that my post may be one of the ones you were referring to as name calling and making things worse; I don't see it that way. I honestly couldn't live with myself if I let a campaign of hatred and vitriol like Marcel's against Debra go without raising a protest against it. I don't make any ad hominem insults in my post. Some may think "you need help" is a gross insult. As someone who has received a fair bit of "help" in my time, ie therapy, it is not intended as an insult. Sure, there are disagreements on list all the time, and hackles are raised. This is of another order altogether. Regards Azeem ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 03:29:19 -0700 From: Leslie Mixon Subject: Question for Nuriel Hello Nuriel: You posted: so joni is not going to appear at the tribute to lennon? best news this week. I don't understand this comment, can you explain? Joni wrote a song for John Lennon called "Impossible Dreamer," it would have been very appropriate for her to perform this (or any song of her choosing) at the tribute. Why do you think that it is good news that Joni is not appearing? Any public performance by Joni is a welcome event for this lister. Curious, Leslie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 06:27:04 -0400 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: RE: Be kind (NJC) I confess that I have not read the official JDML guidelines for a long time. If, as another poster, implied, there is a prohibition against sending private emails against another person's will, does there come a time when this prohibition is enforced? This isn't a case of he-said-she-said; Marcel hasn't denied anything. I'm so sorry you've been targeted like this, Debra. I sometimes wonder why Marcel never came after me, who's at least as commie-pinko as you are. Guess I'm so far removed from the JMDL elite that I don't even merit the dubious honor of private abuse! - ----------------------------------- Deb Messling =^..^= - ----------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 11:30:59 +0100 From: "Paul Castle" Subject: Re: A musical tour of the UK (NJC) I wrote: > Whilst I have no connection with the company, I > see California-based 'Festival Tours International' > (run by Richard Thompson's wife, Nancy Covey) > are offering what looks like an interesting two week > UK tour next year (4th - 18th August '02) to celebrate, > Fairport Convention's 35th Anniversary! see > http://www.gumbopages.com/festivaltours/ Jacky wrote: > Paul, I want to do this tour! Do you have to be American > or can the locals join in? Just heard back from Nancy Covey Festtours@aol.com, who writes: > I've never thought anyone from the UK would be interested which is probably > silly of me. So sure why not! > > I'm sorry but I will away in Central Europe for a couple of weeks so if you > don't get responses to emails til October that is why. But then I will be > back on board. I imagine this means that it will be open to Australians (are you listening, Blue Mountain John?) as well as Californian ex-pats (yes, Steve, looking forward to hearing Gillian and David's new one, 'Time - The Revelator'). Personally, I'd love to go (one day!) on their 'Louisiana Music Tour' see http://www.gumbopages.com/festivaltours/louisiana.html Oh Ya Ya!! As a lover (and player in an occasional London-based Cajun band), a "private crawfish boil at the home of Marc and Ann Savoy" (who I saw a while back at Cecil Sharp House in London) or "a rockin' zydeco Bar-B-Q with Geno Delafose at his country ranch outside Eunice" sounds irresistible. I have fond memories of my first experience of 'crawfish boil' - when visiting a musician friend in Memphis a few years ago - his band were playing at the opening party of a new club on Beale Street and Mrs Rufus Thomas brought the crawfish dish - it was delicious! PaulC np 'Slide and Dip It' - Beau Jocque ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 05:29:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Re: Question for Nuriel Hi Leslie. i see no reason why joni should sing on the same stage with nelly furtado, beck, moby and mark anthony. they make the whole event seem like the MTV's grind party. why should joni be a smart decoration for stupidity? is the latest style now inviting her to prerform with teen pop stars in order to make an event seem more respectable? is it, like, a little bit of this, a little bit of that, mix it all together, and don't forget to add some joni? that's what i meant. p.s. - is she doing bar-mitzva's? - --- Leslie Mixon > wrote: >Hello Nuriel: > >You posted: > >so joni is not going to appear at the tribute to lennon? best news this week. > >I don't understand this comment, can you explain? Joni wrote a song for >John Lennon called "Impossible Dreamer," it would have been very >appropriate for her to perform this (or any song of her choosing) at the >tribute. > >Why do you think that it is good news that Joni is not appearing? Any >public performance by Joni is a welcome event for this lister. > >Curious, >Leslie _____________________________________________________________ Free email, web pages, news, entertainment, weather and MORE! Check out -------------------------------> http://wowmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 08:36:24 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: marcel (njc) Two of the most frustrating things about this situation to me are: - - Marcel DOES have a sense of kindness & compassion, why he lets it get overcome by his mean-ness and hatred is beyond me. And worse, when he reads this, he'll be laughing, truly believing that it is *THE REST OF US* who have the problem! - - He calls ME his hero. How creepy is that? Silence = Acceptance So, good for you, Debra. Marcel, you've been given more lives than Joni's cats. Take a deep look into yourself and make the adjustments necessary to remain a part of this community. Jesus Christ, who is one of MY heroes, said to turn the other cheek, but when the time came when he'd had enough, he had the courage to flip the tables on those who would defile a holy place. Bob NP: The Wallflowers, "Witness" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 08:39:19 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: Be kind In a message dated 9/11/01 3:12:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dsk11@bellatlantic.net writes: > People wonder how abuse happens in "real" life. This is how. People keep > quiet. People look the other way. People are charmed enough to not even > be willing to listen to the people who say they are being harmed, even > when there's evidence. > > I for one do not condone this sort of behavior and therefore cannot look the other way. I hope this helps. I've even consulted the I Ching about the matter at hand. Hexagram 4 Youthful Ignorance The changing line: 6 at the beginning The ignorant man must be dealt with severely and encouraged to open his mind if his ignorance is to be dispelled. Some guilt if you are too firm for too long You must discipline yourself if you wish to become adept. But this discipline must arise from your own need, at your own volition. Do not place yourself under the inflexible strictures of an existing system of discipline. retain the freedom of innocence in choosing the means of your own self-discipline. Rose in NJ rosemjoy@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 08:43:38 -0400 From: Anne Sandstrom Subject: RE: [Jonifest2001] Divine intervention? > It sounds cultish when you try to explain it OK, so here's the 'coward's' way of explaining it. It makes me laugh, but I manage to say it with a straight face. "I'm on a music appreciation mailing list. Every year on Labor Day weekend, we put on a big concert with people from all over the world. And every year it gets bigger." I then go on to describe some detail about JoniFest. People go "ooh" and "aah" and probably have images something like chamber music at Tanglewood, a lovely setting in the Berkshire Mountains where the Boston Symphony Orchestra plays in the summer. I figure it elicits the response we have to JoniFest without having to really initiate someone, which is impossible unless they're on the list anyway. lots of love Anne Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca - ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/47cccB/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/JPJolB/TM - ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: Jonifest2001-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 08:55:15 -0400 From: "Suze Cameron" Subject: RE: [Jonifest2001] Divine intervention? (njc) Oh my god Anne this is what I say verbatim! How scary is that! Of course my good friends know that it all centers on Joni but to say that is all that was sung would be misrepresentation! Anne wrote: >"I'm on a music appreciation mailing list. Every year on Labor Day weekend, >we put on a big concert with people from all over the world. And every year >it gets bigger." We appreciate music, just love Joni the best! Sue n.p. 5th graders doing science groups across the hall Get 250 color business cards for FREE! http://businesscards.lycos.com/vp/fastpath/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 05:57:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: naked it the woods with art from the "contemprary christian music" page on the net: "joni mitchell, who is deeply invovlved in the satanic new-age, tells time magazine of an intimate relationship with a male muse (a demon spirit) named art, even roaming through the woods nude! time magazine(16, 1974,p. 63) writes of joni: "she deeply believes in a male muse named art, who lend her his key to what she arily calls "the shrine of creativity". it's the most serius and enduring thing in her life. "i feel like i'm married to this guy named art", she whispers. "i'm responsabile to my art above all else". joni wrote the new-age theme "woodstock" and has such blasephmous songs as "god must be a boogie man". certainly, there is a difference christian amy grant and devotee joni mitchell." _____________________________________________________________ Free email, web pages, news, entertainment, weather and MORE! Check out -------------------------------> http://wowmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 08:57:30 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: marcel (njc) In a message dated 9/11/01 8:45:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, SCJoniGuy@aol.com writes: > Marcel, you've been given more lives than Joni's cats. Take a deep look into > yourself and make the adjustments necessary to remain a part of this > community. > > So true Bob, unfortunately I don't think Marcel see anything wrong at all with his behavior and that's the sad part. He has so many good traits. I don't hate you Marcel for your crimes, but when so many are crying out, you've got to stop and take a good look at the man in the mirror and ask yourself....why? Rose in NJ rosemjoy@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 08:58:07 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Question for Nuriel <> I see your point, Nuri, and I think it's similar to Joni beating out Christina & Britney for a Grammy. I mean, so what? Put her up against her peers, and the award would mean something, and yes she did have some peers last year. But I'm with Leslie too (although not slow-dancing, shucks!) in that a Joni appearance is ALWAYS good news. And if she can turn the heads and ears of a couple of MTV junkies, more power to her. Bob NP: The Wallflowers, "Birdcage" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 14:42:13 +0100 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: Re: Snakebite erratum, NJC Sorry but my memory was wrong in yesterday's post: I said: > Also, did you know that Israel offered to return all the occupied > territories to Egypt that were captured during the 67 war right after that > war ended in exchange for a recognition by Egypt of the right of Israel to > exist but Nasser turned that down too? > The correct version is: Israel offered in 67 to return the Sinai to Egypt and the Golan to Syria, but not Jerusalem and the west bank. The U.S. thought they could get Israel to give back more. So the U.S. together with the USSR drafted a peace plan proposal in which Israel would return 100% of the territories captured in 67 in exchange for a recognition of the right of Israel to exist and submitted it to Egypt. Nasser turned down that proposal. > > Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 09:04:50 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: NJC - Plane Crashes in World Trade Center How awful, just flipped on the news and saw this disaster. OMG, as I'm watching, another plane crashes into the other building. Hope all our NYC JMDLers (and everyone) is okay! in shock, Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 09:13:16 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC - Plane Crashes in World Trade Center In a message dated 9/11/01 9:09:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, FMYFL@aol.com writes: > How awful, just flipped on the news and saw this disaster. OMG, as I'm > watching, another plane crashes into the other building. > > OMG, this looks to be deliberate!!! rosemjoy@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 14:44:06 +0100 From: "Garret" Subject: breaking news NJC two passenger planes have just, apparently deliberately, crashed into the world trade centres in New York. the specualtion is that it is the result of hijacking! the footage is shocking. it looks like hollywood, but it is real! it's on every station on TV. they say that fifty thousand people work their each day. and it would be 9am in the states, so the bildings would have been pretty full. the death toll must be huge. GARRET ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 15:01:50 +0100 From: "Garret" Subject: Re: breaking news NJC I'm finding this very shocking. Sky News showed the footage of the second crash live. It happened as i watched. They are saying that it is one of the most organised and horrifying act of terrorism in history. SO far six deaths and 1000 injuries have been confirmed Sharon. A member of hte FBI has, apparently, confirmed foulplay. Someone in the first tower made a phone call to the FBI and said "help us we're dying". The planes they say had up to 150 passengers each. i can't believe this even though i'm seeing it with my own eyes! GARRET - ----- Original Message ----- From: Sharon L. Buffington > I am just seeing it now...not one word about people in the > buildings....all the talk is speculation about who did it......... > > Garret wrote: > > > > two passenger planes have just, apparently deliberately, crashed into the > > world trade centres in New York. the specualtion is that it is the result of > > hijacking! > > the footage is shocking. it looks like hollywood, but it is real! > > it's on every station on TV. they say that fifty thousand people work their > > each day. and it would be 9am in the states, so the bildings would have been > > pretty full. > > the death toll must be huge. > > GARRET ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 15:38:12 +0200 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: World Trade Center terrorist attack Two 737 passenger aircraft were hijacked and flown into the World Trade Center just before 9 a.m. this morning. JMDL members in New York, please let us know that you are okay. Marian Vienna ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 09:47:01 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: World Trade Center terrorist attack A plane has also crashed into the Pentagon. Looks like a war guys. PRAY rosemjoy@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 09:47:53 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: breaking news NJC In a message dated 9/11/01 9:26:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sprout@eircom.net writes: > two passenger planes have just, apparently deliberately, crashed into the > world trade centres in New York. the specualtion is that it is the result of > hijacking! > the footage is shocking. it looks like hollywood, but it is real! > it's on every station on TV. they say that fifty thousand people work their > each day. and it would be 9am in the states, so the bildings would have been > pretty full. > the death toll must be huge. > OMG, I just remembered my best friend Ruth was on a flight this morning out of Newark International Airport in NJ to Florida. Please God! rosemjoy@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 15:23:38 +0100 From: "Garret" Subject: Re: breaking news NJC >OMG, I just remembered my best friend Ruth was on a flight this morning out >of Newark International Airport in NJ to Florida. Please God! >rosemjoy@aol.com That is a very worrying prospect. I'm sure your friend is fine. This is one of those times when a prayer is needed! This is a tragedy, and now that you've said this, it seems to make it even more realistic. My prayers and thoughts are with you right now Rose. A third plane has been hijacked, and crashed into the Pentagon. both the pentagon and the White House have been evacuated. President Bush is currently in Florida, and has stated that the attackers will be "hunted down". the news said that the Democratic Front for the LIberation of Palastine claimed responsibility, but then the authorities in Palestine denied this. That, it would seem, is beyond the capabilities of the DFLP. Although they are extreme, they have been taking a more legitmate approach to the situation. well, to my limited knowledge of the situation there. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 16:02:02 +0200 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: RE: World Trade Center terrorist attack One of the planes was a 737, the other was a smaller plane which disappeared into the second tower and then exploded. The news that the same has been done at the Pentagon is terrible. I can't believe it was the Palestinians. I think Islama bin Ladin must be behind it somehow. Marian On 11 September 2001 15:38, RUSSELL, Marian wrote: > Two 737 passenger aircraft were hijacked and flown into the World Trade > Center just before 9 a.m. this morning. JMDL members in New York, please > let us know that you are okay. > > Marian > Vienna ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 07:13:38 -0700 (PDT) From: "Lori R. Fye" Subject: SEND UP YOUR PRAYERS ... NOW. Hoping all of our loved ones are okay in NYC and DC, Lori in Bethesda, MD ~ Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 09:20:45 -0700 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: Be kind My point is the attcks on list are doing nothing but making everyone extremely agitated. I am pals with many people on this list including some of the ones that posted negatively. I do not support harrasment or cover up which you see to be assuming. AND I was directing my comments to Marcel.. It is a very sad day today and no is compounded by terroist attacks on our country. My heart goes out to all listers in NYC and DC and pray that everyone is safe and my prayers go out to the dead and injured by this barbaric act. I continue to wish peace to all on this list regardless of that Debra Shea may think of me personally. Michael on 9/11/01 12:18 AM, dsk at dsk11@bellatlantic.net wrote: > Who is doing the name-calling, Michael? Who is being unkind, without > provocation? Who has done exactly as he pleases, among other things > sending insulting private emails even after numerous requests to not > correspond privately with him, and who has done that for years? > > I can appreciate that you and Marcel are pals. However, I think you need > to at least consider the answers to those questions before you send a > message that implies we are all doing something wrong. That is not the > case. > > Frustration? No, it's anger that people are feeling because such > behavior has gone on for years. It's especially jarring in a community > that prides itself on being so loving. If you don't see anything wrong > with the private post I forwarded to the list earlier this evening (just > receiving it is rudeness enough; the insults it contains show very > clearly who does the name-calling), or anything wrong with the sneering > message from a while ago that Marcel wrote to me and posted to the list > (and those are just the two examples that are public), then you're not > willing to look, and you might as well admit that rather than give us > all a speech about olive branches. > > Kate's "be kind" message seems to be an attempt to sort all this out, > and I can respect anyone trying to do that. Your message is an attempt > to cover it up and that plays right into the hands of your "friend". > People wonder how abuse happens in "real" life. This is how. People keep > quiet. People look the other way. People are charmed enough to not even > be willing to listen to the people who say they are being harmed, even > when there's evidence. > > I am incredibly grateful to the people who have been brave enough to > speak bluntly and honestly about what they see is happening now, and > know has been happening for years, because once things are looked at, > there's a chance that the situation will improve. > > For anyone that wants to cover this over, no, not this time. > > Debra Shea > > > > Michael Paz wrote: >> >> Brothers and sisters! This is the way (Thank you Kate) to address this >> issue. Name calling does nothing, but reduce the situation further (as in >> some earlier emails). I truly understand everyones frustration in the matter >> because I know Mark (who THINKS he's Marcel) and none of the names fit what >> I am hearing tonight. I think it's not time to bring out the hammers and the >> boards and the nails, but the olive branches and flowers to share. >> >> Love >> >> Paz >> >> NP-If You Can-Jack Neilson ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 09:23:56 -0700 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: Be kind More name calling is not gonna solve anything! Attacking each other on this will lead to further sadness and hatred. Michael on 9/11/01 3:14 AM, AzeemAK@aol.com at AzeemAK@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/09/01 05:53:56 GMT Daylight Time, > jmichaelpaz@telocity.com writes: > > << Brothers and sisters! This is the way (Thank you Kate) to address this > issue. Name calling does nothing, but reduce the situation further (as in > some earlier emails). I truly understand everyones frustration in the matter > because I know Mark (who THINKS he's Marcel) and none of the names fit what > I am hearing tonight. I think it's not time to bring out the hammers and the > boards and the nails, but the olive branches and flowers to share. >> > > Dear Michael, > > It's all very well preaching love, but Marcel is spreading hate, poisoning > the list and the inboxes of those he harrasses privately. I for one am not > asking anyone to shun their friends or to hate them; however it sometimes > comes to the point where we have to say "what you did there was not OK". If > you think that Marcel's private post to Debra was OK, well, I'll be shocked > and amazed. Maybe you dislike it as much as I do; however, if nobody said so > then Marcel would think his behaviour was acceptable to everyone. > > I am aware that my post may be one of the ones you were referring to as name > calling and making things worse; I don't see it that way. I honestly > couldn't live with myself if I let a campaign of hatred and vitriol like > Marcel's against Debra go without raising a protest against it. I don't make > any ad hominem insults in my post. Some may think "you need help" is a gross > insult. As someone who has received a fair bit of "help" in my time, ie > therapy, it is not intended as an insult. > > Sure, there are disagreements on list all the time, and hackles are raised. > This is of another order altogether. > > Regards > > Azeem ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 10:22:04 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: marcel (njc) (md) Following the lead of others, I'm sending Marcel's private post to me to the list, with my response. I will NOT be an "enabler" in this situation. << Sorry if this is "creepy" and that you chose to inform 750 people of this fact is unfortunate. You are right about one thing, if you read Patrick Leaders post about having to wash his hands etc. and you really believe that I have ever said anything near as mean as anyone of ten things in his post Ill send you ten bucks and a six pack of diet pepsi. There is a huge double standard with respect to venom content apparently. >> No, I don't agree with Patrick's post, but Patrick speaks for himself, not for me, and he would not private post someone if they had repeatedly asked him not to. THAT IS THE ISSUE HERE. I don't agree with answering hatred with more hatred. Marcel, I didn't avoid you at the Fest, we ate together, had some good conversation, and shared a ride. I try to be an inclusive person and see the good in everyone. But it doesn't mean that I will tolerate what I consider to be unacceptable behavior. Maybe you don't mean for things you write to come out as they do. Knowing you & *liking you* as I do wants me to believe this is true. If someone asks you not to private post them, don't do so. Period. If I'm your hero, then aspire to a higher level of tolerance. Then it won't be so creepy that you look up to any behaviors that I exhibit. And if I remain silent in front of 750 people, then it says that your private attacks are OK. They are not. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 07:30:59 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: God help us and protect us I can't believe this has happened to us. This is so horrifying. God help us. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 15:42:25 +0100 From: "Chris Marshall" Subject: RE: breaking news NJC I've been watching the footage on TV. All my thoughts and prayers go out to those in NYC and DC. I can't really think of what else to say. One of my friends was supposed to be working in NYC some days this week, my ex boss from AT&T was working just down the street from the WTC a few months ago. And there's all our JMDL friends to think about and pray for too. - --Chris ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 09:41:03 -0500 From: cvickery@danielrealty.com Subject: Re: SEND UP YOUR PRAYERS ... (NJC) <> Is it any wonder that these tragedies occur? Here we are, a group united by more than blood and race and religion... we were united first by appreciation and admiration of a "hippie folksinger," and now we're related through her in a wonderful global community that has shared food and fellowship and love and sadnesses and joys and wonders and song and all the other good and terrible things that bind our separatenesses into a crazy-quilt whole. But even now, after a reunion of our souls and minds in Topsfield (even though not all could attend in flesh, we were all there in spirit), even as we emerge again into the world from going back to the garden, we find that we aren't so golden after all. One among us has hurt another deeply, and the ripples from that have spread, and now many are hurt and angry. How can we expect the groups of the world to behave any better than we have among ourselves? So yes, send up your prayers... the enemy is us, too. God, please help all of your creatures choose the right paths this day. Cindy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 10:59:33 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: God help us and protect us In a message dated 9/11/01 10:49:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, KakkiB@worldnet.att.net writes: > I can't believe this has happened to us. This is so horrifying. God help > Yes, this is pure terror and devastation. People are literally jumping out of windows to avoid the fire. The psychological effects that this is going to have on our nation will be felt for a long time to come. Let's pray we have the necessary changes that are going to be required to protect us and to ensure our safety in the future. How these people make there way into this country is beyond me. No one saw it coming. This is going to be the beginning of an inevitable War who's effects are going to far reaching. rosemjoy@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 10:10:45 -0500 From: "Sharon L. Buffington" Subject: Thank you Dear Vicky: Thanks for your posting to the list. I am so saddened that marcel has continued his attacks and even more saddened by the attack against the US by terrorists. This is soooo terrible. At our airport in Minneapolis, all planes grounded and the canine unit is out sniffing for bombs. The Mall of America has been evacuated...and federal marshalls are all over the streets in front of our federal building in Minneapolis. I am also concerned for our lister, Susan Guzzi because we have received word that the Sears tower in Chicago has been attacked. That attack has not really been confirmed so I am not sure about that. Jesse Ventura has placed our national guard and all personnel at Camp Ripley on alert. My prayers are with all of us...those who unwillingly gave their lives, those who serve to protect us and to all the families of mankind who must bear witness to this atrocity. Love and peace........Sharon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 07:55:30 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: God help us and protect us Oh Rose, my thoughts went immediately to you and those on the east coast. I can barely write from shaking. There are sirens going non-stop here in downtown L.A. where we are on tactical alert. May none have us here be hurt. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 15:05:50 +0000 From: "Leslie Ross" Subject: NYC & DC (NJC - like it matters) I'm going mad here (I'm in Holland at the moment) and can't get to any news page on the web and the radio news is all in Dutch. I'm only get snatches of what is happening and it's very frightening. What is to happen next? Do those responsible believe for a second that this is the end of the matter. We're about to descend into war. Anything less would be a miracle. I'm praying for miracles. Les (London - usually) _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 16:22:37 +0100 From: colin Subject: is this it? I have been glued to the tv screen. I can't take in what i am seeing. Please god Debra be okay and Patrick and all those others i this area. What moron thinks this will help? A new depression. war. Help us all. London is on alert. Just spoke tiwht John adn it looks as if they might close his building-it having beeen bombed before. i hope he comes home-100 miles away from london. All of us need to pray. I am so sorry America has suffered this pain. - -- bw colin DAK,BRO GC, 950i 940,860,864, 260, 890,Silver 830 and 270, Passap 6000 Duo80 colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 11:21:15 EDT From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Behavior You know, I'm not going to label this NJC. This morning, I was thinking about Marcel and his list bullying. I was also worrying about my upcoming root canal, trying to get my mascara on straight and get my kids off to school. Then the news: NYC, Washington, DC. What a nightmare. And this reminds me that you can be in the middle of the most mundane things like washing your sox to the most sublime such as giving birth or falling in love and Ka-Blam! Things you have no control over hit. And hit hard. My prayers and hopes go out to list members in the attacked area. It's especially painful to me as my brother and nephew work right in and near the WTC and we are still waiting to hear from them. Please let us all come away from this experience with a resolve to honor life and our relationships. Love our neighbors as ourselves and practice kindness and patience, even when it's easier to do otherwise. Peace to all, MG ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 16:24:20 +0100 From: "Chris Marshall" Subject: RE: God help us and protect us I just spoke to my friends in New Jersey - lord only knows how I got an international line over there. Kevin had been working just down the street from the WTC yesterday, and was due to attend a meeting IN the World Trade Center tomorrow morning. I'm still shaking with the combined shock of the whole thing, and relief that one of my best friends is OK, although he could so easily have been there. The London Stock Exchange has been evacuated, and were I in any major British or western world city right now, I'd be leaving. - --Chris ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 11:41:05 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: God help us and protect us In a message dated 9/11/01 11:31:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, chris@secure-si.co.uk writes: > Kevin had been working just down the street from the WTC yesterday, > and was due to attend a meeting IN the World Trade Center tomorrow > morning. I'm still shaking with the combined shock of the whole > thing, and relief that one of my best friends is OK, although he > could so easily have been there. > > Thank goodness Kevin wasn't in those building. My friend Ruth just called me and she said she was boarded on her plan ready for takeoff when this attack occurred. She managed to get a cab out of Newark and is home safe now. Thank God. They just got done saying that 50,000 people work in the WTC bldgs and that there were at least 20,000 present when this happened. St. Vincent's Hospital alone has reported that there are more than 112 serious injuries and 3 people DOA. This is just the beginning of the numbers reported injured. They are in dire need of blood. How can people even reach those locations though with the mass chaos? rosemjoy@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 08:35:16 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: is this it? I cannot imagine the trauma to those in New York. Please may they be safe. I am so glad that Lori in D.C. is alright. I just learned that my office building is closed and it looks like everyone downtown is being sent home. I'm leaving downtown now and going to my family. This is the most tragic day. Kakki > I have been glued to the tv screen. I can't take in what i >am seeing. Please god Debra be okay and Patrick and >all those others i this area. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 10:43:50 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: bombings I am literally physically ill from this news. Makes the triviality of what goes on here come to the fore. Just heard that United Airlines says there is another missing plane, Boston to LA. I fear it is not over. May God have no mercy on the souls of these bastards responsible. Mack ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 11:50:36 -0400 From: "Stephen Epstein" Subject: Re: is this it? I am absolutely speechless! Anyone of us could so easily have been on one of these flights! Heartfelt thoughts and prayers to all, and your loved ones. Stephen in Vancouver "Kakki" on 09/11/2001 08:35:16 AM Please respond to "Kakki" To: "colin" , "joni" cc: (bcc: Stephen Epstein/Agmont) Subject: Re: is this it? I cannot imagine the trauma to those in New York. Please may they be safe. I am so glad that Lori in D.C. is alright. I just learned that my office building is closed and it looks like everyone downtown is being sent home. I'm leaving downtown now and going to my family. This is the most tragic day. Kakki > I have been glued to the tv screen. I can't take in what i >am seeing. Please god Debra be okay and Patrick and >all those others i this area. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 12:06:25 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Behavior - NJC In a message dated 9/11/01 10:25:58 AM, MGVal@aol.com writes: << my brother and nephew work right in and near the WTC and we are still waiting to hear from them. >> Apparently, MG, all the phone lines in NYC are tied up and calls are not getting through from anywhere. I pray that your relatives are safe, and that God will grant our leaders the strength, intelligence and wisdom they will need to deal with these acts of terrorism. I also pray for all the young men and women on both sides of this conflict -- whatever the other *side* is -- to be spared the horror of going to war. The surreal sight of the island of Manhattan engulfed in smoke is just overwhelming. That is all I can say for now. --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 12:09:17 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: is this it? Kakki wrote: << I just learned that my office building is closed and it looks like everyone downtown is being sent home. >> This is so scary kakki. I know that you're in downtown LA, and I would expect everyone to go home. On our local tv, they just announced that parents could pick up there kids from school and I live in a small city! In really made me ill watching tv when they showed the Palestinians partying in the streets, and throwing candy to all the children. How very very sad. My prayers go out to everyone, Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 11:10:02 -0500 From: "Michael Paz" Subject: NYC's Folks checking in Just got off the phone with Alison who is packing her truck to move home right now. She sez to tell everyone that her and Jeff are ok and that here cell in not working. Just wanted you all to know. Love Michael ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 12:15:03 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: Behavior - NJC In a message dated 9/11/01 12:11:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Murphycopy@aol.com writes: > Apparently, MG, all the phone lines in NYC are tied up and calls are not > getting through from anywhere. I pray that your relatives are safe, and > that > God will grant our leaders the strength, intelligence and wisdom they will > need to deal with these acts of terrorism. I also pray for all the young > men > and women on both sides of this conflict -- whatever the other *side* is -- > to be spared the horror of going to war. The surreal sight of the island of > Manhattan engulfed in smoke is just overwhelming. > > I just spoke with a very distraught Alison, she hasn't left NYC yet for SLC. She wants to leave today, but I just don't know if I would. She and Jeff are OK and I asked her if she knew of any JMDLer's that work in the area of the WTC and she said NO, she knew of no one. Let's pray that's the case. rosemjoy@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 11:57:05 -0500 From: "Michael Paz" Subject: Re: NYC's Folks checking in I have been trying call Lahm and Patrick who are the only ones I have numbers for. I will let you know if I get thru. I spoke to my friend Emily who helped raise my two children the first years of their lives and she is safe. She had just passed there this am and was near the George Washington Bridge when it actually happened. She didn't find out what was happening till she got to work later this am in NJ. I feel like I am being suffocated right now. I can't breathe and feel like I am choking. Michael - ----- Original Message ----- From: Suze Cameron To: Michael Paz Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 11:46 AM Subject: Re: NYC's Folks checking in > Michael, > > Thanks so much for letting us know. I have > been sick to my stomach since getting the call. > The entire school is quiet and in shock, silently watching the tv coverage. > > Have we heard any news from Patrick, Kay, Debra, > David L.? > > Sue > > > Get 250 color business cards for FREE! > http://businesscards.lycos.com/vp/fastpath/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 11:57:51 -0500 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: Re: is this it? One of the bases here in Illinois has been closed and sealed off from anybody, including workers at a country club that resides on the same island. I hope so much that our JMDLers are OK in those areas. Please let us know! Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 13:04:18 EDT From: Reuben3rd@aol.com Subject: Re: John Cale >>Debra said: NP: John Cale's Hallelujah in the promo for tv show Third Watch. << Can anyone point me in the right direction for getting started with John Cale? I'm not that familiar with him, but saw him perform with The Creatures (GREAT SHOW!!) in 1998. I really liked his sets, and wondered where I should begin... Reuben ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 13:07:33 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: NYC's Folks checking in Our brother Stephen Elliott from NYC has checked in, and is shaken but fine. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 13:17:03 EDT From: Reuben3rd@aol.com Subject: Re: naked it the woods with art Perhaps this is Art Nouveau, from the DJRD sleeve...? Just kidding. Trying to distract myself from this terrible day. Reuben >>>...tells time magazine of an intimate relationship with a male muse (a demon spirit) named art, even roaming through the woods nude! time magazine(16,1974,p. 63)writes of joni: "she deeply believes in a male muse named art, who lend her his key to what she arily calls "the shrine of creativity". it's the most serius and enduring thing in her life. "i feel like i'm married to this guy named art", she whispers. "i'm responsabile to my art above all else".<<< ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 13:29:40 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: John Cale Reuben3rd@aol.com wrote: > >>Debra said: NP: John Cale's Hallelujah in the promo for tv show Third Watch. << Not sure what you are referring to, but the song is sung by Rufus Wainwright (same version as in Shrek), and written by Leonard Cohen. Jerry ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2001 #395 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?