From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2001 #346 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Sunday, August 12 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 346 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. Information on the 4th "Annual" New England JoniFest: http://www.jmdl.com/jfne2001.cfm ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Subject: The Meaning of Life?(NJC) [slarty ] The Meaning of Life [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: The Meaning of Life?(NJC) [slarty ] Re: The Meaning of Life?(NJC) ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Lefites Of The World, Unite! NJC [colin ] Re: The Meaning of Life?(NJC) ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Lefites Of The World, Unite! NJC [colin ] Re: Lefites Of The World, Unite! NJC [colin ] Re: Lefites Of The World, Unite! NJC [colin ] Re: Lefites Of The World, Unite! NJC ["Sharon L. Buffington" ] Re: Lefites Of The World, Unite! NJC ["Martin Giles" ] python's Meaning of Life?(NJC) ["Wally Kairuz" ] RE: Lefties Of The World, Unite! NJC ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: The Meaning Of Life (NJC) ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Lefites Of The World, Unite! NJC ["Mark or Travis" ] Officially can't make JoniFest. Waaaa [TerryM2222@aol.com] Re: The Meaning of Life and being a Joni fan ["Mark or Travis" ] Lefites Of The World, Unite! NJC ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Lefites Of The World, Unite! NJC ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: python's Meaning of Life?(NJC) [Bruyere ] peace to you as well ["shane mattison" ] AC/DC (njc) ["Victor Johnson" ] Re: Officially can't make JoniFest. Waaaa [Bruyere ] Re: the ear thing NJC [colin ] Re: Officially can't make JoniFest. Waaaa [Michael Paz ] Re: The Meaning Of Life (NJC) ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: who was judged and who wasn't ["Sharon L. Buffington" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 12:48:14 -0400 From: slarty Subject: Re: Subject: The Meaning of Life?(NJC) If you're talking about the song I suspect Eric Idle had at least a hand in it as he is the musician (and a pretty good friend of George Harrison, who helped bank role some of the Monty Python films) in the troupe. Catherine McKay wrote: > --- slarty wrote: > > Yup. As the final credits role you find our heroes > > on crosses being > > crucified > > while they sing- "Always look on the bright side of > > life." > > A golden moment in cinematic history. > > > > Kate Bennett wrote: > > > > > wasn't that a Monty Python movie...i need to watch > > it > > > > > again...******************************************** > > Just reading about it is giving me the giggles. > > Who wrote about the meaning of liff? Was it John > Lennon? > > --------------------------------------------------- > Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 12:52:37 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: The Meaning of Life And no, I didn't forget the NJC, because there will be plenty of Joni content. After all, she's why we're all here. She of course also poses the question in "Number One": "There's gotta be more to living than a mortgage and a lawn to mow"...this one line inspires me often. Relayer, your question is far too ambiguous & broad in its sweep to answer. BUT it can be rephrased to make it significant. Instead of asking the meaning of life, ask yourself (for only YOU can answer, untimately) "What is the meaning of MY life"? Turning to Joni again...in "Banquet", she runs through some of the things that we use in our search: "Some turn to Jesus And some turn to heroin Some turn to rambling round Looking for a clean sky and a drinking stream Some watch the paint peel off Some watch their kids grow up Some watch their stocks and bonds Waiting for that big deal American Dream" Pretty much sums up the different choices we make trying to find significance...religion, material things & personal wealth, travel, doing nothing, devoting ourselves to family, escaping through drugs. Just as Joni searched for her gifts and settled on her talents to make a difference in the world, so can you. Is the world a better place because Joni is in it? Surely. Is the world a better place because *we're* in it? It CAN be, if we continue to search for our gifts and share them to make the world (that is, our own little world, wherever that may be) better. Like Earth Wind & Fire said, "If you don't see any beauty then you've got to MAKE some beauty"... Joni's ultimate song about the search for life's meaning is Hejira: "I looked at those granite markers Those tributes to finality- To eternity And then I looked at myself here Chicken scratching for my immortality" Part of my fascination with Joni's work is this search that she remains on, indeed knowing that the journey IS life, and not the destination. James Taylor puts it much more simply, "The secret of life is enjoying the passage of time..." simple but very profound. So how can your life have meaning, Relayer? Take a look around and see where you're needed and where you can make a difference. And enjoy the passage of time along the way. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 12:52:37 -0400 From: slarty Subject: Re: The Meaning of Life?(NJC) Douglas Adams who died just recently penned the books. I think he was about 49 years old. Ironically enough he died at a health spa. Catherine McKay wrote: > --- slarty wrote: > > The answer is 42, the last I heard. It may have > > changed who knows. > > Who cares. Perhaps I'm old and tired but I always > > think that the > > chances of finding out what really is going on are > > so absurdly remote > > that the only thing to do is say hang the sense of > > it and just keep > > yourself occupied. > > -Words of wisdom from Slartybartfast paraphrased > > from the Hitch Hiker's Guide To The Galaxy > > > RIP the-guy-who-wrote-that. I can never remember his > name which is one of, or some combination of the > following: > Richard Adams > Douglas Adams > Douglas Copeland > Richard Douglas > Douglas Richard > Adam Copeland > > and so on... > > Anyway, he died a short while ago, young (to me!), in > his 40s. > > ------------------------------------------------------ > Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 09:57:57 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: The Meaning of Life?(NJC) I always think that the > chances of finding out what really is going on are so absurdly remote > that the only thing to do is say hang the sense of it and just keep > yourself occupied. No one knows They can never get that close Guesses at most Guesses based on what each set of time & change is touching.... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 18:12:47 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: Lefites Of The World, Unite! NJC "Sharon L. Buffington" wrote: > LOL...some of us girls use our knives and still eat left handed...only > with cloth napkins on our laps of course. I think Joni smokes left > handed. I was glad to see Joni has joined the ranks of smoking American > Spirits. I din' think about smoking-I do that right handed too! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 10:05:01 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: The Meaning of Life?(NJC) > Some people find comfort in beleiving that their puprose is to procrreate and thus > spread their genes for another genration. Others find it in believing they are > here to help others. Yet others believe their life is ordained by 'God' and their > prupose is to fulfill that. Some turn to Jesus Some turn to heroin Some turn to ramblin' 'round Looking for a clean sky And a drinking stream Some watch the paint peel off Some watch their kids grow up Some watch their stocks & bonds Waitin' for that big deal American dream ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 18:14:30 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: Lefites Of The World, Unite! NJC > You mean Americans don't use knives? I thought you > were talking about the business of how many Americans > cut their food, fork in left hand, knife in right; > then switch the fork to the right hand to pick up the > food. I don't switch. i cut with the left anf right and gfo to the ,mouth with my right without putting the knife down and stitching > I was taught the non-switching way, to keep the > fork in the left hand all the time - it's a lot easier > than constantly putting the knife down and switching > hands. > > > I had piano lessons as a child and gave up cos I > > just couldn;t get my hands to do > > different things at the same time. > > That's a matter of teaching your brain and muscles to > work together at something they're not used to doing - > with practice and concentration, you would get it at > some point. > > The thing I'm working on right now (for > guitar-playing) is to get the ring finger and the > pinky to work independently and stop trying to hang > out together all the time - they just want to be > together all the time! So I'll sit on the subway, > flicking my fingers back and forth, probably looking > like a weirdo, but there are worse things I could be > doing. > Try it sometime - you'll see what I mean. > > -------------------------------------------------- > > NP Keb' Mo' - I'm telling you now > > ------------------------------------------------ > Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca - -- bw colin DAK,BRO GC, 950i 940,860,864, 260, 890,Silver 830 and 270, Passap 6000 Duo80 colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 18:15:42 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: Lefites Of The World, Unite! NJC > So I'll sit on the subway, > flicking my fingers back and forth, I cannot do the Star Trek thing-you kno the hand signal. just cannot d o it. But I can make my ears move ! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 18:17:14 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: Lefites Of The World, Unite! NJC > (I don't have any hearing > problems that I'm aware of that would explain why it's > "easier" for me to hear with the right ear vs the > left.) me too! nothing wrong with my hearing but I fi d I just cannot hear as well with my left ear! > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca - -- bw colin DAK,BRO GC, 950i 940,860,864, 260, 890,Silver 830 and 270, Passap 6000 Duo80 colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 12:15:49 -0500 From: "Sharon L. Buffington" Subject: Re: Lefites Of The World, Unite! NJC LOL colin wrote: > > > So I'll sit on the subway, > > flicking my fingers back and forth, > > I cannot do the Star Trek thing-you kno the hand signal. just cannot d o > it. But I can make my ears move ! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 17:51:12 +0800 From: "Martin Giles" Subject: Re: The Meaning of Life?(NJC) Hi Cathererine It was Douglas Adams, and a very sad loss to the world. Not only was he very funny, but also a really nice guy, I think. Not that I ever met him - just got that impression whenever I heard him interviewed. Apparently, he had a heart attack while working out at the gym. If there is an afterlife, then I think he's 'up there' chuckling at the irony of his demise. Martin. In London. - - --- slarty wrote: > The answer is 42, the last I heard. It may have > changed who knows. > Who cares. Perhaps I'm old and tired but I always > think that the > chances of finding out what really is going on are > so absurdly remote > that the only thing to do is say hang the sense of > it and just keep > yourself occupied. > -Words of wisdom from Slartybartfast paraphrased > from the Hitch Hiker's Guide To The Galaxy > RIP the-guy-who-wrote-that. I can never remember his name which is one of, or some combination of the following: Richard Adams Douglas Adams Douglas Copeland Richard Douglas Douglas Richard Adam Copeland and so on... Anyway, he died a short while ago, young (to me!), in his 40s. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 18:14:04 +0800 From: "Martin Giles" Subject: Re: Lefites Of The World, Unite! NJC I'm right handed in everything. Very monodextrous (if that's a word). And I play (right-handed) guitar. I think you're right in saying that it probably isn't that much more of a stretch for a lefty to play right handed. Considering how impossible the fretting seemed to me when I started playing, I think that to start with I would have been equally slow if I had picked up a left handed guitar. Nowadays, playing 'right-handed', my left hand is doing some pretty fancy things, while my 'good hand' typically has less to do , particularly if I'm only strumming. If I pick up a left handed guitar these days, more than anything, it just feels like my right handed guitar felt when I first started learning to play. Martin. In London. - - --- "Sharon L. Buffington" wrote: >I wonder what Joni is? and Catherine replied.. Good question but my guess is she's probably right-handed (odds are). I've always wondered how lefties manage with the guitar. Any left-handed guitar players out there? Do you have to try to find a left-handed guitar, or do you have to force yourself to play right-handed? Considering some of the things you have to train your mind and hand muscles to do in any case, it may not be that much more of a stretch for a lefty to play guitar right-handed, but what would I know? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 14:24:25 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: python's Meaning of Life?(NJC) my favorite part is when the glutton explodes, and then the char starts speaking about the meaning of life and she turns out to be such a nazi!!!!! wallyK ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 14:32:55 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Lefties Of The World, Unite! NJC oh sharon, i used to do that all the time! but then i heard that schumann got so obsessed trying to make these two fingers independent that he ended up breaking both his ring fingers. so i stopped of course. my mom and my eldest brother are lefties. my dad, my sister and i are right handed. but there's one thing [and i'm being serious] i enjoy switching hands to do. wallyK - -----Mensaje original----- De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de Sharon L. Buffington Enviado el: Domingo, 12 de Agosto de 2001 12:35 p.m. Para: Catherine McKay CC: colin; Brian Gross; joni@smoe.org Asunto: Re: Lefites Of The World, Unite! NJC The thing I'm working on right now (for guitar-playing) is to get the ring finger and the pinky to work independently and stop trying to hang out together all the time ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 14:38:40 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: the ear thing NJC i heard the ear thing is hereditary. only a few people can do it!!! i can't do the star trek thing either. i take forever. i'd be expelled from the federation. wally - -----Mensaje original----- De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de colin Enviado el: Domingo, 12 de Agosto de 2001 02:16 p.m. Para: Catherine McKay CC: Sharon L. Buffington; Brian Gross; joni@smoe.org Asunto: Re: Lefites Of The World, Unite! NJC I cannot do the Star Trek thing-you kno the hand signal. just cannot d o it. But I can make my ears move ! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 10:39:18 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: The Meaning Of Life (NJC) > > There is an aweful lot of it out there, getting on with stuff quite without > > reference to us. So my question is not so much 'what is the meaning of My > > life', but, 'What's The Rest Of It for?". To date, I have heard no > > convincing answer. > > Good point. My personal take on things is that there has to be some > higher purpose or entity or reason for being, if you see what I mean. > But I can't easily believe that this higher /something/ is that bothered > about me personally or the planet on which I live. Ok, no more Joni quotes here. My view of the Universe or the Whole or whatever you want to call it is kind of like a humongous tank full of sand. Each grain is different in some subtle way and they are all arranged in a specific pattern. But the pattern is ever-changing. If you move one grain of sand, after all, the whole will shift and change. Imperceptibly, perhaps but it all changes. The 'higher power' or God or whatever you want to call it, is the creator & keeper of the whole pattern and is also the force that moves through and drives the whole thing. In essence, God *is* the whole. In that way, what happens to each and every one of us does matter to the whole and one small shift is somehow balanced, maybe somewhere in the very remotest corners of space. It's like Dylan's 'Every Grain of Sand' - every hair is numbered like every grain of sand. Also, God or whatever you care to call it, is in each & every one of us and also in every creature and thing in the entire whole. In that way we are all connected and in a way, we are all God. However, the pattern is so vast that, as Joni says in Sweet Bird, we can never know it. So we use metaphor to try & grasp what we can never truly understand. Although I am not 100% convinced, I am also fairly certain there is a life after this one. My metaphor for this is the butterfly emerging from the cocoon. Our physical bodies are merely repositories of our true essences for a period of our continued growth. Once the essence is ready to emerge, the physical body is discarded. It dies and we move out of it into the next stage of life. These are all, of course, only guesses and opinions. I would never presume to know the meaning of life or the nature of God or the Universe or anything else for that matter. Such knowledge & wisdom are far beyond the microscopic sum of my own perceptions. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 10:42:13 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Lefites Of The World, Unite! NJC > Me three!!!!!! > > I do EVERYTHING with my left hand > I do almost everything with my right hand. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 10:59:41 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: apologia pro vita sua (njc) > > I find it both interesting and revealing that so many on the list are now > > telling Shane they dont understand what he just wrote. lol. > > > I didn't understand what he was saying and I don't understand this post > either. I find that very interesting. I understood what he was saying I just didn't understand why he was saying it. Mark in Seattle (and two hard-boiled eggs) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 14:04:11 EDT From: TerryM2222@aol.com Subject: Officially can't make JoniFest. Waaaa Hi friends old and new- Well, I tried till the last minute to get to Ashara's, but can't. My kids start school on different weeks and we are fitting in a family vacation next week. Since everyone's schedule is so wacky here, we couldn't do it sooner. That makes it impossible for me to come to JoniFest- for the 2nd year in a row! I wish it could be on a different weekend. Getting kids started up for school is a major mess as I have to be so diligent with one of my kids who has special needs. So, though I'll miss all of you, I am happy for those who can make it. I know you'll have a blast. Love, Terry www.addconsults.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 11:20:46 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: The Meaning of Life and being a Joni fan > Some turn to Jesus > Some turn to heroin > Some turn to ramblin' 'round > Looking for a clean sky > And a drinking stream > Some watch the paint peel off > Some watch their kids grow up > Some watch their stocks & bonds > Waitin' for that big deal > American dream I hadn't read Bob's post before I posted these lyrics. You're right, Bob. Joni addresses the question over & over again. She's not content to write about the mundane & inconsequential. She digs deep. She analyzes. She is always searching. Just like all of us here. I think this is a big part of why we all love her so much. I know we've talked about this over & over again but I was turning it over in my head again the other day. Why Joni? Why, when Travis first brought a computer into this house, was the first think I looked for on the web, Joni Mitchell? There are other artists I love, some I've followed almost as religiously as Joni but for some reason she is the one I identify with the most. In some way, she helps me define myself. I am a Joni Mitchell fan. Doesn't that say something about all of us? It makes it possible for us all to come together in all of our glorious diversity and share our thoughts & feelings, this love of the art of Joni Mitchell. If someone says, 'I love Joni', that says something about them that commands a certain respect and implied affection. We can pretty much know we're dealing with someone who has a certain amount of depth, someone who thinks & feels deeply about life and love and all of the important things that concern us all. Also someone who loves music and is not afraid to move beyond the commonplace and ordinary and explore the vast amount of music that is outside of the Top 40. More & more I wish I could be at Ashara's this year. Like Wally, I feel this year is going to be something extraordinary. Be sure I will be with you all in spirit. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 11:25:08 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: python's Meaning of Life?(NJC) > my favorite part is when the glutton explodes, and then the char starts > speaking about the meaning of life and she turns out to be such a nazi!!!!! > wallyK EEEUUUWWWWWWWWW! I HATED that part! I almost had to leave the theatre! Too gross! Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 11:07:13 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Subject: Re: Subject: The Meaning of Life?(NJC) LOL, remembering now.... slarty wrote, "Yup. As the final credits role you find our heroes on crosses being crucified while they sing- "Always look on the bright side of life." A golden moment in cinematic history." ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 11:07:16 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: JMDL Digest V2001 #345 yes, related to that, i love the symbol of yin/yang because each side has a little dot of the other in it... victor wrote "everything seems to be built around paradoxes...light and dark, night and day, life and death, the heart and the mind...all these equal and opposite things that seem to completely at odds with each other and yet are interwoven together so finely that it seems impossible to separate them from each other. " ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 11:17:19 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Lefites Of The World, Unite! NJC Catherine asked, "I've always wondered how lefties manage with the guitar. Any left-handed guitar players out there? Do you have to try to find a left-handed guitar, or do you have to force yourself to play right-handed?" My husband, Jeff, is left handed & learned to play right handed cuz he didn't know about left handed guitars...now he says its too late to change. I think it is horrible that teachers used to try to force left handers to write right handed. What kind of arrogant ignorance is that? ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 11:46:59 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Lefites Of The World, Unite! NJC Kicking and throwing left is a lot > easier than writing with my left hand, which makes my > brain hurt, but I like to practice every now and then, > just in case I ever break my right arm or wrist - > weird contingency thing - what'll I do if I fall and > break them both?) Our dog has a pink plastic ball that he loves to play fetch with. Since he likes to chew on it & it gets all slobbery it is more preferable to kick it for him than to pick it up and throw it (it's about 3/4 the size of a soccer ball). I switch the foot I kick it with from right to left, just to give each leg equal use. Kinda silly I guess. And like Wally, there is one thing I do left handed for reasons that shall remain forever unsaid (on the JMDL, anyway lol!) Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 13:23:25 -0600 From: "shane mattison" Subject: who was judged and who wasn't chris marshall questioned my motives for including kakki and sharon on my recipient list... but if you check the recent correspondances on this list, very friendly correspondance was made between us three...a copy was sent to them because i valued that...since when is it the duty of chris marshall to say what i meant by including them as recipients? in the case of kakki, i have valued her as a friend who i visited in LA and we keep emailing one another every few days about many topics and interests...in the case of sharon, we exchanged many chuckles as of very recent time...when i sent my 'apologia', it was not meant as an attack, therefore, against them personally, and the principle of justice is "innocent until proven guilty and not the other way round"... and in the text itself i didn't mention names at all to keep 'apologia vita sua' from being misconstrued personally, unlike chris marshall directing his attack by singling out me or what i wrote as 'intolerant'... and it seems to me he fails to see that many things were said indiscriminately by various people tarring and feathering those of christian belief, which as anyone knows, if they read their shakespeare, is a category of both rogues and saints and everything in-between...thus 'apologia pro vita sua' is just what its title suggests, a defense made of the faith from various and sundry demeaning inferences... the proof that chris marshall did not carefully read what i said is that he quotes me out of context...i mention the ivory towers, the so-called places of 'exegetical expertise', and then suggest the historical decline of integrity "in such places"...how can he infer that this is talking about kakki or sharon? then he attacks for my mentioning my studies at Oxford as "name-dropping"...but if he had read the posts preceding my 'apologia', he would have found the inference in response to my opinion of "passion play" that certain people misuse prophetical interpretation and that this should be left to the experts of "exegesus", implying therefore that my opinion was not worthy of being as highly regarded as such experts, whoever they may be...and so i denied this by saying i have the credentials which someone suggested i lacked... finally, chris marshall repeats the charge of intolerance....presumably based on the above? thus he makes a personal judgment against me, something i did not do against any one particular person... the judging me and my opinion goes on, but i had a right to say who i thought the heart healer is...He is someone i have tried to love...would i have been honest if i had not included my opinion about a friend or said nothing about what i think he may be like? but now that i have done so, i really would like to discuss music...i've had a few tarrings lately, including being sent to my home computer...why not accept that i mean no one any offense for my defense...and let's get on with the music, if people would be so kind as not to send me their attacks anymore on this issue to my home... shane ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 15:18:15 -0400 From: Bruyere Subject: Re: python's Meaning of Life?(NJC) just one thin mint? oh no no no, i couldn't...... (oh yes! this scene is such a hoot!) heather At 02:24 PM 8/12/01 -0300, Wally Kairuz wrote: >my favorite part is when the glutton explodes, and then the char starts >speaking about the meaning of life and she turns out to be such a nazi!!!!! >wallyK ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 13:32:37 -0600 From: "shane mattison" Subject: peace to you as well seems like i may have ruffled a few feathers by my defence of myself, but i want to say that your peaceful offers are most thoroughly and heartfully accepted, and please accept my apologies if any of you felt personally attacked... i have greatly enjoyed our recent 'many chuckles' and hope that these can continue as we get off the explosive subject of religious beliefs... shane ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 15:23:20 -0400 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: AC/DC (njc) I was watching a documentary on the history of AC/DC and found out that George Young, the older brother of Malcolm and Angus, was in the band "The Easybeats" who had a hit with "Friday on My Mind." I thought that was very interesting as I never would have connected those two bands. I also found that there was another original singer before Bon Scott who was kicked out of the band. That was probably the best move they ever made as I love their material with Scott singing. I'm not so keen on Brian Johnson. You never know what you'll learn. Victor Victor Johnson http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson "Velveteen rabbits and moonbeams, Come when you lay down your head. While you are sleeping, they kiss you and tell you, That you are the reason the sun lights the sky." Scarlet-V. Johnson ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 15:20:38 -0400 From: Bruyere Subject: Re: Officially can't make JoniFest. Waaaa we will miss you terry! heather At 02:04 PM 8/12/01 -0400, TerryM2222@aol.com wrote: >Hi friends old and new- > >Well, I tried till the last minute to get to Ashara's, but can't. My kids >start school on different weeks and we are fitting in a family vacation next >week. Since everyone's schedule is so wacky here, we couldn't do it sooner. > >That makes it impossible for me to come to JoniFest- for the 2nd year in a >row! I wish it could be on a different weekend. Getting kids started up for >school is a major mess as I have to be so diligent with one of my kids who >has special needs. > >So, though I'll miss all of you, I am happy for those who can make it. I know >you'll have a blast. > >Love, >Terry > >www.addconsults.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 20:38:51 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: the ear thing NJC Wally Kairuz wrote: > i heard the ear thing is hereditary. like the rolling of the tongue-can't do that either. If we ever meet, I'll treat you to my ear waggling! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 14:37:03 -0700 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: Officially can't make JoniFest. Waaaa sad news for me. Now I will NEVER learn WOHAM. We will miss you Terry. Paz on 8/12/01 11:04 AM, TerryM2222@aol.com at TerryM2222@aol.com wrote: > Hi friends old and new- > > Well, I tried till the last minute to get to Ashara's, but can't. My kids > start school on different weeks and we are fitting in a family vacation next > week. Since everyone's schedule is so wacky here, we couldn't do it sooner. > > That makes it impossible for me to come to JoniFest- for the 2nd year in a > row! I wish it could be on a different weekend. Getting kids started up for > school is a major mess as I have to be so diligent with one of my kids who > has special needs. > > So, though I'll miss all of you, I am happy for those who can make it. I know > you'll have a blast. > > Love, > Terry > > www.addconsults.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 20:32:50 +0800 From: "Martin Giles" Subject: Re: The Meaning Of Life (NJC) Hi Mark I really like this.. > My view of the Universe or the Whole or > whatever you want to call it is kind of like a humongous tank full of > sand. Each grain is different in some subtle way and they are all > arranged in a specific pattern. But the pattern is ever-changing. If > you move one grain of sand, after all, the whole will shift and > change. Imperceptibly, perhaps but it all changes. The 'higher > power' or God or whatever you want to call it, is the creator & keeper > of the whole pattern and is also the force that moves through and > drives the whole thing. In essence, God *is* the whole. In that way, > what happens to each and every one of us does matter to the whole and > one small shift is somehow balanced, maybe somewhere in the very > remotest corners of space. It captures what seems to be the order of things. We would seem in this 'model' to have no real significance as individuals, except in our influence over our neighbours, and perhaps by chaos theory's 'butterfly effect' on things far away. And God is revealed simultaneously in all of us and in the physical laws that run the universe. Perhaps we will one day know how the universe works, but I'm not sure we'll ever got to the bottom of why. Perhaps some things are not knowable by our limited brains. Martin. In London. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 12:58:20 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: The Meaning Of Life (NJC) > It captures what seems to be the order of things. We would seem in this > 'model' to have no real significance as individuals, except in our influence > over our neighbours, and perhaps by chaos theory's 'butterfly effect' on > things far away. To use an old cliche, no man is an island. We do not each of exist in a vacuum. If we are nothing but each of us an end unto each individual self, how can we be of any signficance? Where is there meaning in that? And God is revealed simultaneously in all of us and in the > physical laws that run the universe. I would add spiritual laws. I'm fairly certain there are aspects of the whole that we can not perceive with our physical senses, no matter how great our knowledge or how vast its scope may become. One of those is what happens after our physical bodies die. Do we simply stop? I don't thinks so. At least I hope that is not the case. One thing that keeps me going is the hope that I will someday be reunited with loved ones who are no longer in this world. But maybe that is only the pain of those losses longing to be eased. > > Perhaps we will one day know how the universe works, but I'm not sure we'll > ever got to the bottom of why. Perhaps some things are not knowable by our > limited brains. > I suspect you're right. Thanks for your response, Martin. I enjoyed reading your thoughts. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 15:12:59 -0500 From: "Sharon L. Buffington" Subject: Re: who was judged and who wasn't Dear Shane: I am the one who brought up scholarly exegesis and I shall try to make myself clear here. By scholars I meant those persons who have to translate the old language of the bible into English. That their view of what they translate (hopefully) is literal and does not carry with it the same connotations that those who choose to interpret the bible use...for example...some people can point to portions of the bible to say that Blacks are inferior...or that being gay is an abomination...whatever. That was my only point...that there is often a great difference between what the scholars translate and how we later interpret things.... Peace.........Sharon > shane mattison wrote: > > chris marshall questioned my motives for including kakki and sharon on > my recipient list... > > but if you check the recent correspondances on this list, very > friendly correspondance was made between us three...a copy was sent to > them because i valued that...since when is it the duty of chris > marshall to say what i meant by including them as recipients? in the > case of kakki, i have valued her as a friend who i visited in LA and > we keep emailing one another every few days about many topics and > interests...in the case of sharon, we exchanged many chuckles as of > very recent time...when i sent my 'apologia', it was not meant as an > attack, therefore, against them personally, and the principle of > justice is "innocent until proven guilty and not the other way > round"... > > and in the text itself i didn't mention names at all to keep 'apologia > vita sua' from being misconstrued personally, unlike chris marshall > directing his attack by singling out me or what i wrote as > 'intolerant'... > > and it seems to me he fails to see that many things were said > indiscriminately by various people tarring and feathering those > of christian belief, which as anyone knows, if they read their > shakespeare, is a category of both rogues and saints and everything > in-between...thus 'apologia pro vita sua' is just what its title > suggests, a defense made of the faith from various and sundry > demeaning inferences... > > the proof that chris marshall did not carefully read what i said is > that he quotes me out of context...i mention the ivory towers, > the so-called places of 'exegetical expertise', and then suggest the > historical decline of integrity "in such places"...how can he infer > that this is talking about kakki or sharon? > > then he attacks for my mentioning my studies at Oxford as > "name-dropping"...but if he had read the posts preceding my > 'apologia', he would have found the inference in response to my > opinion of "passion play" that certain people misuse prophetical > interpretation > and that this should be left to the experts of "exegesus", implying > therefore that my opinion was not worthy of being as highly regarded > as such experts, whoever they may be...and so i denied this by saying > i have the credentials which someone suggested i lacked... > > finally, chris marshall repeats the charge of > intolerance....presumably based on the above? thus he makes a personal > judgment against me, something i did not do against any one particular > person... > > the judging me and my opinion goes on, but i had a right to say who i > thought the heart healer is...He is someone i have tried to > love...would i have been honest if i had not included my opinion about > a friend or said nothing about what i think he may be like? > but now that i have done so, i really would like to discuss > music...i've had a few tarrings lately, including being sent to my > home computer...why not accept that i mean no one any offense for my > defense...and let's get on with the music, if people would be so kind > as not to send me their attacks anymore on this issue to my home... > shane ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 16:26:37 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: NJC The meaning of life Ok, you can only bait me for so long with a subject title like that. You want the meaning of life? Here it is. All I ask is that you read it all., read it like poetry, aloud is best. And this is in no way a Christo-centric reading. It has just a few gender specific words that need be addressed. And correcting those in our minds as we read, it is then as close to the truth that I think any writing in human languages can attain. (Ecclesiastes 1) The words of the Teacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem. 2 Vanity of vanities, says the Teacher, vanity of vanities! All is vanity. 3 What do people gain from all the toil at which they toil under the sun? 4 A generation goes, and a generation comes, but the earth remains forever. 5 The sun rises and the sun goes down, and hurries to the place where it rises. 6 The wind blows to the south, and goes around to the north; round and round goes the wind, and on its circuits the wind returns. 7 All streams run to the sea, but the sea is not full; to the place where the streams flow, there they continue to flow. 8 All things are wearisome; more than one can express; the eye is not satisfied with seeing, or the ear filled with hearing. 9 What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done; there is nothing new under the sun. 10 Is there a thing of which it is said, "See, this is new"? It has already been, in the ages before us. 11 The people of long ago are not remembered, nor will there be any remembrance of people yet to come by those who come after them. 12 I, the Teacher, when king over Israel in Jerusalem, 13 applied my mind to seek and to search out by wisdom all that is done under heaven; it is an unhappy business that God has given to human beings to be busy with. 14 I saw all the deeds that are done under the sun; and see, all is vanity and a chasing after wind. 15 What is crooked cannot be made straight, and what is lacking cannot be counted. 16 I said to myself, "I have acquired great wisdom, surpassing all who were over Jerusalem before me; and my mind has had great experience of wisdom and knowledge." 17 And I applied my mind to know wisdom and to know madness and folly. I perceived that this also is but a chasing after wind. 18 For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow. (Ecclesiastes 2) I said to myself, "Come now, I will make a test of pleasure; enjoy yourself." But again, this also was vanity. 2 I said of laughter, "It is mad," and of pleasure, "What use is it?" 3 I searched with my mind how to cheer my body with wine--my mind still guiding me with wisdom--and how to lay hold on folly, until I might see what was good for mortals to do under heaven during the few days of their life. 4 I made great works; I built houses and planted vineyards for myself; 5 I made myself gardens and parks, and planted in them all kinds of fruit trees. 6 I made myself pools from which to water the forest of growing trees. 7 I bought male and female slaves, and had slaves who were born in my house; I also had great possessions of herds and flocks, more than any who had been before me in Jerusalem. 8 I also gathered for myself silver and gold and the treasure of kings and of the provinces; I got singers, both men and women, and delights of the flesh, and many concubines. 9 So I became great and surpassed all who were before me in Jerusalem; also my wisdom remained with me. 10 Whatever my eyes desired I did not keep from them; I kept my heart from no pleasure, for my heart found pleasure in all my toil, and this was my reward for all my toil. 11 Then I considered all that my hands had done and the toil I had spent in doing it, and again, all was vanity and a chasing after wind, and there was nothing to be gained under the sun. 12 So I turned to consider wisdom and madness and folly; for what can the one do who comes after the king? Only what has already been done. 13 Then I saw that wisdom excels folly as light excels darkness. 14 The wise have eyes in their head, but fools walk in darkness. Yet I perceived that the same fate befalls all of them. 15 Then I said to myself, "What happens to the fool will happen to me also; why then have I been so very wise?" And I said to myself that this also is vanity. 16 For there is no enduring remembrance of the wise or of fools, seeing that in the days to come all will have been long forgotten. How can the wise die just like fools? 17 So I hated life, because what is done under the sun was grievous to me; for all is vanity and a chasing after wind. 18 I hated all my toil in which I had toiled under the sun, seeing that I must leave it to those who come after me 19 --and who knows whether they will be wise or foolish? Yet they will be master of all for which I toiled and used my wisdom under the sun. This also is vanity. 20 So I turned and gave my heart up to despair concerning all the toil of my labors under the sun, 21 because sometimes one who has toiled with wisdom and knowledge and skill must leave all to be enjoyed by another who did not toil for it. This also is vanity and a great evil. 22 What do mortals get from all the toil and strain with which they toil under the sun? 23 For all their days are full of pain, and their work is a vexation; even at night their minds do not rest. This also is vanity. 24 There is nothing better for mortals than to eat and drink, and find enjoyment in their toil. This also, I saw, is from the hand of God; 25 for apart from him who can eat or who can have enjoyment? 26 For to the one who pleases him God gives wisdom and knowledge and joy; but to the sinner he gives the work of gathering and heaping, only to give to one who pleases God. This also is vanity and a chasing after wind. (Ecclesiastes 3) For everything there is a season, and a time for every matter under heaven: 2 a time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up what is planted; 3 a time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up; 4 a time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance; 5 a time to throw away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing; 6 a time to seek, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to throw away; 7 a time to tear, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak; 8 a time to love, and a time to hate; a time for war, and a time for peace. 9 What gain have the workers from their toil? 10 I have seen the business that God has given to everyone to be busy with. 11 He has made everything suitable for its time; moreover he has put a sense of past and future into their minds, yet they cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end. 12 I know that there is nothing better for them than to be happy and enjoy themselves as long as they live; 13 moreover, it is God's gift that all should eat and drink and take pleasure in all their toil. 14 I know that whatever God does endures forever; nothing can be added to it, nor anything taken from it; God has done this, so that all should stand in awe before him. 15 That which is, already has been; that which is to be, already is; and God seeks out what has gone by. 16 Moreover I saw under the sun that in the place of justice, wickedness was there, and in the place of righteousness, wickedness was there as well. 17 I said in my heart, God will judge the righteous and the wicked, for he has appointed a time for every matter, and for every work. 18 I said in my heart with regard to human beings that God is testing them to show that they are but animals. 19 For the fate of humans and the fate of animals is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and humans have no advantage over the animals; for all is vanity. 20 All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again. 21 Who knows whether the human spirit goes upward and the spirit of animals goes downward to the earth? 22 So I saw that there is nothing better than that all should enjoy their work, for that is their lot; who can bring them to see what will be after them? (Ecclesiastes 4) Again I saw all the oppressions that are practiced under the sun. Look, the tears of the oppressed--with no one to comfort them! On the side of their oppressors there was power--with no one to comfort them. 2 And I thought the dead, who have already died, more fortunate than the living, who are still alive; 3 but better than both is the one who has not yet been, and has not seen the evil deeds that are done under the sun. 4 Then I saw that all toil and all skill in work come from one person's envy of another. This also is vanity and a chasing after wind. 5 Fools fold their hands and consume their own flesh. 6 Better is a handful with quiet than two handfuls with toil, and a chasing after wind. 7 Again, I saw vanity under the sun: 8 the case of solitary individuals, without sons or brothers; yet there is no end to all their toil, and their eyes are never satisfied with riches. "For whom am I toiling," they ask, "and depriving myself of pleasure?" This also is vanity and an unhappy business. 9 Two are better than one, because they have a good reward for their toil. 10 For if they fall, one will lift up the other; but woe to one who is alone and falls and does not have another to help. 11 Again, if two lie together, they keep warm; but how can one keep warm alone? 12 And though one might prevail against another, two will withstand one. A threefold cord is not quickly broken. 13 Better is a poor but wise youth than an old but foolish king, who will no longer take advice. 14 One can indeed come out of prison to reign, even though born poor in the kingdom. 15 I saw all the living who, moving about under the sun, follow that youth who replaced the king; 16 there was no end to all those people whom he led. Yet those who come later will not rejoice in him. Surely this also is vanity and a chasing after wind. (Ecclesiastes 5) Guard your steps when you go to the house of God; to draw near to listen is better than the sacrifice offered by fools; for they do not know how to keep from doing evil. 2 Never be rash with your mouth, nor let your heart be quick to utter a word before God, for God is in heaven, and you upon earth; therefore let your words be few. 3 For dreams come with many cares, and a fool's voice with many words. 4 When you make a vow to God, do not delay fulfilling it; for he has no pleasure in fools. Fulfill what you vow. 5 It is better that you should not vow than that you should vow and not fulfill it. 6 Do not let your mouth lead you into sin, and do not say before the messenger that it was a mistake; why should God be angry at your words, and destroy the work of your hands? 7 With many dreams come vanities and a multitude of words; but fear God. 8 If you see in a province the oppression of the poor and the violation of justice and right, do not be amazed at the matter; for the high official is watched by a higher, and there are yet higher ones over them. 9 But all things considered, this is an advantage for a land: a king for a plowed field. 10 The lover of money will not be satisfied with money; nor the lover of wealth, with gain. This also is vanity. 11 When goods increase, those who eat them increase; and what gain has their owner but to see them with his eyes? 12 Sweet is the sleep of laborers, whether they eat little or much; but the surfeit of the rich will not let them sleep. 13 There is a grievous ill that I have seen under the sun: riches were kept by their owners to their hurt, 14 and those riches were lost in a bad venture; though they are parents of children, they have nothing in their hands. 15 As they came from their mother's womb, so they shall go again, naked as they came; they shall take nothing for their toil, which they may carry away with their hands. 16 This also is a grievous ill: just as they came, so shall they go; and what gain do they have from toiling for the wind? 17 Besides, all their days they eat in darkness, in much vexation and sickness and resentment. 18 This is what I have seen to be good: it is fitting to eat and drink and find enjoyment in all the toil with which one toils under the sun the few days of the life God gives us; for this is our lot. 19 Likewise all to whom God gives wealth and possessions and whom he enables to enjoy them, and to accept their lot and find enjoyment in their toil--this is the gift of God. 20 For they will scarcely brood over the days of their lives, because God keeps them occupied with the joy of their hearts. (Ecclesiastes 6) There is an evil that I have seen under the sun, and it lies heavy upon humankind: 2 those to whom God gives wealth, possessions, and honor, so that they lack nothing of all that they desire, yet God does not enable them to enjoy these things, but a stranger enjoys them. This is vanity; it is a grievous ill. 3 A man may beget a hundred children, and live many years; but however many are the days of his years, if he does not enjoy life's good things, or has no burial, I say that a stillborn child is better off than he. 4 For it comes into vanity and goes into darkness, and in darkness its name is covered; 5 moreover it has not seen the sun or known anything; yet it finds rest rather than he. 6 Even though he should live a thousand years twice over, yet enjoy no good--do not all go to one place? 7 All human toil is for the mouth, yet the appetite is not satisfied. 8 For what advantage have the wise over fools? And what do the poor have who know how to conduct themselves before the living? 9 Better is the sight of the eyes than the wandering of desire; this also is vanity and a chasing after wind. 10 Whatever has come to be has already been named, and it is known what human beings are, and that they are not able to dispute with those who are stronger. 11 The more words, the more vanity, so how is one the better? 12 For who knows what is good for mortals while they live the few days of their vain life, which they pass like a shadow? For who can tell them what will be after them under the sun? (Ecclesiastes 7) A good name is better than precious ointment, and the day of death, than the day of birth. 2 It is better to go to the house of mourning than to go to the house of feasting; for this is the end of everyone, and the living will lay it to heart. 3 Sorrow is better than laughter, for by sadness of countenance the heart is made glad. 4 The heart of the wise is in the house of mourning; but the heart of fools is in the house of mirth. 5 It is better to hear the rebuke of the wise than to hear the song of fools. 6 For like the crackling of thorns under a pot, so is the laughter of fools; this also is vanity. 7 Surely oppression makes the wise foolish, and a bribe corrupts the heart. 8 Better is the end of a thing than its beginning; the patient in spirit are better than the proud in spirit. 9 Do not be quick to anger, for anger lodges in the bosom of fools. 10 Do not say, "Why were the former days better than these?" For it is not from wisdom that you ask this. 11 Wisdom is as good as an inheritance, an advantage to those who see the sun. 12 For the protection of wisdom is like the protection of money, and the advantage of knowledge is that wisdom gives life to the one who possesses it. 13 Consider the work of God; who can make straight what he has made crooked? 14 In the day of prosperity be joyful, and in the day of adversity consider; God has made the one as well as the other, so that mortals may not find out anything that will come after them. 15 In my vain life I have seen everything; there are righteous people who perish in their righteousness, and there are wicked people who prolong their life in their evildoing. 16 Do not be too righteous, and do not act too wise; why should you destroy yourself? 17 Do not be too wicked, and do not be a fool; why should you die before your time? 18 It is good that you should take hold of the one, without letting go of the other; for the one who fears God shall succeed with both. 19 Wisdom gives strength to the wise more than ten rulers that are in a city. 20 Surely there is no one on earth so righteous as to do good without ever sinning. 21 Do not give heed to everything that people say, or you may hear your servant cursing you; 22 your heart knows that many times you have yourself cursed others. 23 All this I have tested by wisdom; I said, "I will be wise," but it was far from me. 24 That which is, is far off, and deep, very deep; who can find it out? 25 I turned my mind to know and to search out and to seek wisdom and the sum of things, and to know that wickedness is folly and that foolishness is madness. 26 I found more bitter than death the woman who is a trap, whose heart is snares and nets, whose hands are fetters; one who pleases God escapes her, but the sinner is taken by her. 27 See, this is what I found, says the Teacher, adding one thing to another to find the sum, 28 which my mind has sought repeatedly, but I have not found. One man among a thousand I found, but a woman among all these I have not found. 29 See, this alone I found, that God made human beings straightforward, but they have devised many schemes. (Ecclesiastes 8) Who is like the wise man? And who knows the interpretation of a thing? Wisdom makes one's face shine, and the hardness of one's countenance is changed. 2 Keep the king's command because of your sacred oath. 3 Do not be terrified; go from his presence, do not delay when the matter is unpleasant, for he does whatever he pleases. 4 For the word of the king is powerful, and who can say to him, "What are you doing?" 5 Whoever obeys a command will meet no harm, and the wise mind will know the time and way. 6 For every matter has its time and way, although the troubles of mortals lie heavy upon them. 7 Indeed, they do not know what is to be, for who can tell them how it will be? 8 No one has power over the wind to restrain the wind, or power over the day of death; there is no discharge from the battle, nor does wickedness deliver those who practice it. 9 All this I observed, applying my mind to all that is done under the sun, while one person exercises authority over another to the other's hurt. 10 Then I saw the wicked buried; they used to go in and out of the holy place, and were praised in the city where they had done such things. This also is vanity. 11 Because sentence against an evil deed is not executed speedily, the human heart is fully set to do evil. 12 Though sinners do evil a hundred times and prolong their lives, yet I know that it will be well with those who fear God, because they stand in fear before him, 13 but it will not be well with the wicked, neither will they prolong their days like a shadow, because they do not stand in fear before God. 14 There is a vanity that takes place on earth, that there are righteous people who are treated according to the conduct of the wicked, and there are wicked people who are treated according to the conduct of the righteous. I said that this also is vanity. 15 So I commend enjoyment, for there is nothing better for people under the sun than to eat, and drink, and enjoy themselves, for this will go with them in their toil through the days of life that God gives them under the sun. 16 When I applied my mind to know wisdom, and to see the business that is done on earth, how one's eyes see sleep neither day nor night, 17 then I saw all the work of God, that no one can find out what is happening under the sun. However much they may toil in seeking, they will not find it out; even though those who are wise claim to know, they cannot find it out. (Ecclesiastes 9) All this I laid to heart, examining it all, how the righteous and the wise and their deeds are in the hand of God; whether it is love or hate one does not know. Everything that confronts them 2 is vanity, since the same fate comes to all, to the righteous and the wicked, to the good and the evil, to the clean and the unclean, to those who sacrifice and those who do not sacrifice. As are the good, so are the sinners; those who swear are like those who shun an oath. 3 This is an evil in all that happens under the sun, that the same fate comes to everyone. Moreover, the hearts of all are full of evil; madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead. 4 But whoever is joined with all the living has hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion. 5 The living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no more reward, and even the memory of them is lost. 6 Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished; never again will they have any share in all that happens under the sun. 7 Go, eat your bread with enjoyment, and drink your wine with a merry heart; for God has long ago approved what you do. 8 Let your garments always be white; do not let oil be lacking on your head. 9 Enjoy life with the wife whom you love, all the days of your vain life that are given you under the sun, because that is your portion in life and in your toil at which you toil under the sun. 10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do with your might; for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going. 11 Again I saw that under the sun the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, nor bread to the wise, nor riches to the intelligent, nor favor to the skillful; but time and chance happen to them all. 12 For no one can anticipate the time of disaster. Like fish taken in a cruel net, and like birds caught in a snare, so mortals are snared at a time of calamity, when it suddenly falls upon them. 13 I have also seen this example of wisdom under the sun, and it seemed great to me. 14 There was a little city with few people in it. A great king came against it and besieged it, building great siegeworks against it. 15 Now there was found in it a poor wise man, and he by his wisdom delivered the city. Yet no one remembered that poor man. 16 So I said, "Wisdom is better than might; yet the poor man's wisdom is despised, and his words are not heeded." 17 The quiet words of the wise are more to be heeded than the shouting of a ruler among fools. 18 Wisdom is better than weapons of war, but one bungler destroys much good. (Ecclesiastes 10) Dead flies make the perfumer's ointment give off a foul odor; so a little folly outweighs wisdom and honor. 2 The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of a fool to the left. 3 Even when fools walk on the road, they lack sense, and show to everyone that they are fools. 4 If the anger of the ruler rises against you, do not leave your post, for calmness will undo great offenses. 5 There is an evil that I have seen under the sun, as great an error as if it proceeded from the ruler: 6 folly is set in many high places, and the rich sit in a low place. 7 I have seen slaves on horseback, and princes walking on foot like slaves. 8 Whoever digs a pit will fall into it; and whoever breaks through a wall will be bitten by a snake. 9 Whoever quarries stones will be hurt by them; and whoever splits logs will be endangered by them. 10 If the iron is blunt, and one does not whet the edge, then more strength must be exerted; but wisdom helps one to succeed. 11 If the snake bites before it is charmed, there is no advantage in a charmer. 12 Words spoken by the wise bring them favor, but the lips of fools consume them. 13 The words of their mouths begin in foolishness, and their talk ends in wicked madness; 14 yet fools talk on and on. No one knows what is to happen, and who can tell anyone what the future holds? 15 The toil of fools wears them out, for they do not even know the way to town. 16 Alas for you, O land, when your king is a servant, and your princes feast in the morning! 17 Happy are you, O land, when your king is a nobleman, and your princes feast at the proper time-- for strength, and not for drunkenness! 18 Through sloth the roof sinks in, and through indolence the house leaks. 19 Feasts are made for laughter; wine gladdens life, and money meets every need. 20 Do not curse the king, even in your thoughts, or curse the rich, even in your bedroom; for a bird of the air may carry your voice, or some winged creature tell the matter. (Ecclesiastes 11) Send out your bread upon the waters, for after many days you will get it back. 2 Divide your means seven ways, or even eight, for you do not know what disaster may happen on earth. 3 When clouds are full, they empty rain on the earth; whether a tree falls to the south or to the north, in the place where the tree falls, there it will lie. 4 Whoever observes the wind will not sow; and whoever regards the clouds will not reap. 5 Just as you do not know how the breath comes to the bones in the mother's womb, so you do not know the work of God, who makes everything. 6 In the morning sow your seed, and at evening do not let your hands be idle; for you do not know which will prosper, this or that, or whether both alike will be good. 7 Light is sweet, and it is pleasant for the eyes to see the sun. 8 Even those who live many years should rejoice in them all; yet let them remember that the days of darkness will be many. All that comes is vanity. 9 Rejoice, young man, while you are young, and let your heart cheer you in the days of your youth. Follow the inclination of your heart and the desire of your eyes, but know that for all these things God will bring you into judgment. 10 Banish anxiety from your mind, and put away pain from your body; for youth and the dawn of life are vanity. (Ecclesiastes 12) Remember your creator in the days of your youth, before the days of trouble come, and the years draw near when you will say, "I have no pleasure in them"; 2 before the sun and the light and the moon and the stars are darkened and the clouds return with the rain; 3 in the day when the guards of the house tremble, and the strong men are bent, and the women who grind cease working because they are few, and those who look through the windows see dimly; 4 when the doors on the street are shut, and the sound of the grinding is low, and one rises up at the sound of a bird, and all the daughters of song are brought low; 5 when one is afraid of heights, and terrors are in the road; the almond tree blossoms, the grasshopper drags itself along and desire fails; because all must go to their eternal home, and the mourners will go about the streets; 6 before the silver cord is snapped, and the golden bowl is broken, and the pitcher is broken at the fountain, and the wheel broken at the cistern, 7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the breath returns to God who gave it. 8 Vanity of vanities, says the Teacher; all is vanity. 9 Besides being wise, the Teacher also taught the people knowledge, weighing and studying and arranging many proverbs. 10 The Teacher sought to find pleasing words, and he wrote words of truth plainly. 11 The sayings of the wise are like goads, and like nails firmly fixed are the collected sayings that are given by one shepherd. 12 Of anything beyond these, my child, beware. Of making many books there is no end, and much study is a weariness of the flesh. 13 The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear God, and keep his commandments; for that is the whole duty of everyone. 14 For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every secret thing, whether good or evil. ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2001 #346 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?