From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2001 #340 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Thursday, August 9 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 340 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. Information on the 4th "Annual" New England JoniFest: http://www.jmdl.com/jfne2001.cfm ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Today in Joni History: August 9 [les@jmdl.com] Re: Re: why join 'em? politics, money & the media -long (NJC) ["hell" ] Uncritical critics [Gordon Mackie ] Re: Uncritical critics [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: Re: why join 'em? politics, money & the media -long (NJC) ["colin" ] Re: chapter three -- NJC -- whoops! [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Passion Play [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] NJC Re: Yes in Atlanta(njc) [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] RE: T. Waits "Foreign Affairs" NJC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: the chelsea [Jerry Notaro ] Re: energy plan NJC [Jerry Notaro ] Re: energy plan NJC [Reuben3rd@aol.com] Re: the chelsea -njc ["J. R. Mills" ] Re: what we're watching (NJC) [Reuben3rd@aol.com] critical critics NJC ["Stephen Epstein" ] Re: Uncritical critics (njc) [Don Rowe ] Re: the chelsea -njc [Alison E ] re: Passion Play ["c Karma" ] Re: How do you stop. [Alison E ] Re: what we're watching (NJC) [jan ] Re: the chelsea -njc ["J. R. Mills" ] Re: the chelsea -njc [Alison E ] Re: the chelsea ["shane mattison" ] Re: what we're watching (NJC) [Don Rowe ] Re: energy plan NJC ["Kakki" ] re: Passion Play [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] re: Passion Play ["c Karma" ] Re: critical critics NJC [colin ] Re: the chelsea -njc [colin ] re: Passion Play [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: what we're watching (NJC) [Rick and Susan ] Re: what we're watching (NJC) [colin ] Re: what we're watching (NJC) ["Sharon L. Buffington" ] even more TW quotations (NJC) [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: Allman Bros and Phil Lesh and Friends(for all the dead heads in the room) (njc) [Alison E ] Re: what we're watching (NJC) [jan ] List info [Les Irvin ] Re: Europe vs US On second thought NJC [Coyote4Joni@aol.com] Re: critical critics NJC [Catherine McKay ] RE: Joni's rhymes [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: why join 'em? politics, money & the media -long (NJC) [Randy Remote ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 03:58:36 -0400 From: les@jmdl.com Subject: Today in Joni History: August 9 On August 9 in Joni Mitchell History: 1974: Joni performs in Toronto. - ------------------------ Search the "Today" database: http://www.jmdl.com/today ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 20:00:40 +1200 From: "hell" Subject: Re: Re: why join 'em? politics, money & the media -long (NJC) Bob wrote: > Except for my weekly dose of "The Simpsons", which I consider to be > the best written comedy ever, I stay away from TV. I know there are > others here who do the same. There's nothing I can do about our society > or our culture, but there's plenty I can do in my own life, and I do it. > Ultimately, that's all we *can* do. Ah, but you ARE a part of society - everyone is - and your decision not to watch television does have an impact. You are one less consumer watching the interminable advertisments that get played ad nauseum every ten minutes. It may be an almost negligible impact, but if 1/2 a million other people watching decide to turn off for a while, them those companies advertising at that time are going to lose money, big time. Personally, I always watch the Simpsons, and a few other select shows like Bad Girls (English prison drama), Water Rats (Australian police drama) and a few other things that I watch if I remember to turn on the TV. But I usually video them while doing other things, then I can fast-forward through the ads! Hell ____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Hell's Personal Photo Page: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/main/personal.htm Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://www.nbls.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 05:06:29 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: what we're watching (NJC) i've been watching my tapes of 6 feet under and the avengers [the emma peel seasons] non-stop. i too think that the simpsons rule. wallyK, ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 10:40:44 +0100 From: Gordon Mackie Subject: Uncritical critics Ken Evans wrote France actually has this law now that says that if you are ambitious and want to get ahead by working more than 30 hours a week that you're not allowed to. What can I say...? Really, what can I say? Marcel...what is common sense ? Common to whom? I would beware any notion of common sense at all costs. Honest! Looking forward to the posts on this. Love Gordon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 07:53:48 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: Uncritical critics In a message dated 09/08/01 10:52:02 GMT Daylight Time, gordon.mackie@strath.ac.uk writes: << Ken Evans wrote France actually has this law now that says that if you are ambitious and want to get ahead by working more than 30 hours a week that you're not allowed to. >> Oh really, is that what the law says? Presumably, if you're unambitious and don't want to get ahead, you can work more than 30 hours a week. Azeem ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 13:06:24 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) From: "colin" Subject: Re: Re: why join 'em? politics, money & the media -long (NJC) But I usually video them while doing other things, then I can fast-forward through the ads! Hell colin adds: which is justw hat we do. We use it mainly for watching vids and dvds. I do have the tv on all day tho whilst i am working upstairs. This is for the dogs but i make sufre it is on the health channel wich has mediattation stuff and talk on it and no violence and no animals!(because the dogs attack the tv and bark) ____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Hell's Personal Photo Page: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/main/personal.htm Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://www.nbls.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 13:11:29 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) From: "colin" Subject: Re: Uncritical critics what is common sense ? colin replies: the defination is the same as it is for those say 'all decent people think so and so. In other words whoever agrees with the person defining common sense. The definiton of power is getting others to agree with your perceptions/definitions, your view of the world. Some people get very uptight when people don't see the world as they see it. Due to ignorance of how our minds work and how we each perceive differently and therefore construct different meanings and thus see our world's differently. Common to whom? I would beware any notion of common sense at all costs. Honest! Looking forward to the posts on this. Love Gordon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 08:07:12 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: chapter three -- NJC -- whoops! <> Not as embarrasing as sending a torrid love letter to the list by mistake...long-time listers will recall when THAT happened. Bob NP: Dave Mathews Band, "Digging A Ditch" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 08:11:23 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Passion Play <> I'd never thought of this twist on the colors, Sharon. The challenge for me has always been making sense of that part, but you have a great perspective on it! Bob NP: DMB, "Big Eyed Fish" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 08:14:54 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: NJC Re: Yes in Atlanta(njc) <> And I'm quivering with anticipation, Michael, but now I have a dilemma...since we'll be in Atlanta I was going to wear my Scarlett outfit. But now, inspired by Relayer's post, I'm trying to go full-bore Hattie McDaniel, but it's just not working. I'm looking more like Mrs. Butterworth! :~D Bob NPIMH: "Mystery date, are you ready for your mystery date..." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 08:23:40 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: RE: T. Waits "Foreign Affairs" NJC <> I love TW covers ALMOST as much as I love Joni covers, and thankfully Tom's been given his due regarding covers, unlike Joni (in terms of tribute collections). This year's release from John Hammond, Waits covers with TW producing and helping out on several tracks, is one of my faves for the year! <> It was supposed to be Bette on that soundtrack as well, but it didn't work out. No matter, because TW and Gayle are great together! Also, while I'm thinking about TW covers, I went last night to see Glen Phillips, and it was a great show. He was the lead singer/songwriter for Toad the Wet Sprocket, did all of their hits, some stuff off his new solo record, and an acapella version of TW's "Johnsburg, IL". Nice stuff! Bob NP: DMB, "Captain" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Jan 1904 05:58:31 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: the chelsea Alison E wrote: > --- shane mattison wrote: > > Woke up, it was a Chelsea morning, > > > JONI WRITES CHELSEA MORNING WHILE STAYING HERE... > > well, didn't joni live in chelsea? (why yes, she did!) Rufus Wainwright wrote his latest cd Poses while staying at the Chelsea Hotel. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Jan 1904 06:20:04 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: energy plan NJC Kakki wrote: > Randy wrote: > > This is partly correct. When they were planning how many generating plants > to built several years ago, they did not factor in the present and future > illegal (undocumented) immigrant consumers into their forecasts. That's right. Blame the illegal immigrants. Who do you think uses more energy? Them, or the rich, (white and legal) Californians? Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 09:15:52 EDT From: Reuben3rd@aol.com Subject: Re: energy plan NJC Speaking of energy, etc.... Yesterday began the first (in my memory at least) rolling blackouts in the Philadelphia area, due to power shortages during a major heatwave. Kind of scary... Reuben ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 06:14:33 -0700 From: "J. R. Mills" Subject: Re: the chelsea -njc > Rufus Wainwright wrote his latest cd Poses while staying at the Chelsea > Hotel. > > Jerry Sid Vicious, bass player for the punk band The Sex Pistols, killed his girlfriend Nancy Spungen at the Chelsea Hotel on the morning of October 12, 1978. Morbid, I know, but true... - -Julius ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 09:25:41 EDT From: Reuben3rd@aol.com Subject: Re: what we're watching (NJC) I've also been watching "Six Feet Under" which I love, and I just borrowed the whole series (thus far) of "Queer As Folk" (US), which I'm also enjoying... Reuben ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 09:53:28 -0400 From: "Stephen Epstein" Subject: critical critics NJC "Ken Evans wrote France actually has this law now that says that if you are ambitious and want to get ahead by working more than 30 hours a week that you're not allowed to." There was an article in yesterdays Vancouver Sun- "Why working less is good business". "Europe is in the midst of a revolution in working time. It's a revolution with major implications for Canada's future. Europeans now work hundreds of hours per year less than their Canadian counterparts. The main benefit of working less, as far as they're concerned, has been an enormous increase in the quality of family and community life. Europeans can point to a slew of public health and child welfare indicators showing that Europe is a far healthier place to raise families than North America is. The impacts on unemployment are far from trivial, though. In the past two years, by moving from a 39 hour to a 35 hour work week, France has put one-third of it's unemployed back to work. As a result, business confidence in France has risen to an all-time high.............." Works for me!! Regards, Stephen in Vancouver NP: Rufus Wainwright- Poses ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 07:48:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: Uncritical critics (njc) - --- AzeemAK@aol.com wrote: > Oh really, is that what the law says? Presumably, > if you're unambitious and > don't want to get ahead, you can work more than 30 > hours a week. There seems something wrong with the basic premise here. Long work hours have much more to do with inefficient administrative systems, a lack of corporate commitment to sufficient & effective training, company cultures which reward employees for looking busy more than tangible results, and to a lesser degree ... general incompetence and poor work habits. More so, certainly, than any individual level of "ambition" ... and though my personal experience is in the American market, I see no reason why European companies (many of which are now held by American corporate parent Inc.s) should be any different. Don Rowe ===== Visit me anytime at http://www.mp3.com/donrowe Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 07:59:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Alison E Subject: Re: the chelsea -njc - --- "J. R. Mills" wrote: > Sid Vicious, bass player for the punk band The Sex > Pistols, killed his > girlfriend Nancy Spungen at the Chelsea Hotel on the > morning of October 12, > 1978. Morbid, I know, but true... > -Julius well, it's true speculation. he passed out, woke up and nancy was dead. so, there was speculation that he killed her in a drug rage (because she was so f*cking annoying!) or it was a dealer, a drug deal gone bad (there was a substantial amount of shady traffic through the hotel room that fateful night). so they never really found out what happened because sid died shortly after of a heroine overdose (oh shit, not heroine). parenthetically speaking, alison e. in nyc np: shawn colvin, whole new you Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 15:08:31 +0000 From: "c Karma" Subject: re: Passion Play I'm sticking to my own interpretation: Joni wrote this to describe an awakening she had in regard to control of her own career(s) in her various art disciplines. She draws the analogy to Mary Magdalene to parallel her having been "whored" by the record industry, then vilified: "All around the market place, the buzzing of the flies, the buzzing and the stinging" (witness HOSL, Mingus, et al.). Recently, disclosure about her and Larry having suffered a miscarriage during the period this song was likely written might help explain "Divinely barren and wickedly wise the killer nails are ringing." Joni was obviously writing from a very sensitive and fragile perspective, sadly this is often her best vantage point. So far, I personally think that "Exxon Blue" and "Radiation Rose" are simply colors, named like ones you would find in a Crayola crayon box. They sound great together, too. They might refer obscurely to "Roses Blue" from "Clouds" but I doubt it. If they carry other associations that work for you, enjoy them. I think that her writing is often both less complicated and less linear than we as pundits might seek. Sometimes it just sounds and feels right and that's what makes it poetry. CC "Oh, what do you know about living in Turbulent Indigo?" -- JM _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 08:28:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Alison E Subject: Re: How do you stop. - --- johnirving wrote: > Ok, it's not a Joni song... but the way I've always > taken the meaning of > the questioning in How do you stop, (ie. how to stop > growing corn or a > baby being born) is that it's not meant to be a > direct question. (Which > begets direct answers: Obviously abortion, poisons, > etc.) > john. it's funny, i guess because i've watched a baby actually being born, that's what *always* instantly pops into my head when i hear the song, and when i read your post. i think the song is trying to relate that unstoppable sense, that urgency, inevitability. it's very effective imagery for me. there's no way to keep a baby from coming out of the womb once the labor process has begun. unless their little shoulders get stuck, like my godson, but that's another story. i think if you've ever seen a baby actually coming out of a woman, it's pretty scarring. literally, ha ha. no, really, it's magical and incredible and it's why i use birth control unfailingly. LOL. alison e. in nyc Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 08:45:34 -0700 From: jan Subject: Re: what we're watching (NJC) Buffy, Angel, X-Files. Jon Stewart's Daily Show. The occasional Springer. - -jan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 08:50:43 -0700 From: "J. R. Mills" Subject: Re: the chelsea -njc I know there are any number of conspiracy theories, nevertheless, official documents indicate that Sid confessed the crime to police: "I stabbed her, but I didn't mean to kill her." However you slice it, it's true that the crime occurred at the Chelsea Hotel - in Sid Vicious's room. Okay? - -Julius > --- "J. R. Mills" wrote: > > Sid Vicious, bass player for the punk band The Sex > > Pistols, killed his > > girlfriend Nancy Spungen at the Chelsea Hotel on the > > morning of October 12, > > 1978. Morbid, I know, but true... > > -Julius > > well, it's true speculation. he passed out, woke up > and nancy was dead. so, there was speculation that he > killed her in a drug rage (because she was so f*cking > annoying!) or it was a dealer, a drug deal gone bad > (there was a substantial amount of shady traffic > through the hotel room that fateful night). so they > never really found out what happened because sid died > shortly after of a heroine overdose (oh shit, not > heroine). > parenthetically speaking, > alison e. in nyc > np: shawn colvin, whole new you > Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 09:01:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Alison E Subject: Re: the chelsea -njc - --- "J. R. Mills" wrote: > I know there are any number of conspiracy theories, > nevertheless, official > documents indicate that Sid confessed the crime to > police: "I stabbed her, > but I didn't mean to kill her." However you slice > it, it's true that the > crime occurred at the Chelsea Hotel - in Sid > Vicious's room. Okay? > > -Julius ok. but it's not what johnny rotten told me. alison e. np: liz phair Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 11:12:52 -0600 From: "shane mattison" Subject: Re: the chelsea jerry wrote: <> cool jerry...i just watched his video 'california'...seems in harmony with joni all right... shane - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Notaro" To: "Alison E" Cc: "shane mattison" ; Sent: Friday, January 01, 1904 4:58 AM Subject: Re: the chelsea > Alison E wrote: > > > --- shane mattison wrote: > > > Woke up, it was a Chelsea morning, > > > > > JONI WRITES CHELSEA MORNING WHILE STAYING HERE... > > > > well, didn't joni live in chelsea? (why yes, she did!) > > Rufus Wainwright wrote his latest cd Poses while staying at the Chelsea > Hotel. > > Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 10:04:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: what we're watching (NJC) - --- jan wrote: > Buffy, Angel, X-Files. Jon Stewart's Daily Show. > The occasional Springer. > -jan McNeil/Leherer, Antiques Roadshow and Witchblade (don't knock it 'til you've tried it!). ;-) Don Rowe ===== Visit me anytime at http://www.mp3.com/donrowe Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 09:31:38 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: energy plan NJC Whoa, whoa there Jerry - I am certainly not blaming them and the reports I heard on the news about the state or whatever powers-that-be not accounting for them when projecting future energy needs were impartial and more concerned that a such dumb mistake had been made in not factoring them in when figuring future ppower plant needs. Massive undocumented immigration is a fact of life in California and discussing it does not mean anyone is blaming anyone. The vast majority of the undocumented population work very hard here and pay their electric bills just like everyone else, rich or poor. But again, the lack of enough power plants is not the key in the current situation. If you re-read my posts again on this subject or read the links I posted you can see that decisions made by "big money," to be simplistic, is at the heart of the current "energy crisis" here. So much slop has been thrown around in the media about the issue with everyone pointing the finger at everyone else and I was just trying to pare it down to reality a bit based on my understanding. Kakki > That's right. Blame the illegal immigrants. Who do you think uses more energy? Them, or the rich, (white and legal) Californians? > > Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 13:16:32 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: re: Passion Play <> You can certainly do that, CC, but I think it takes heavy denial to do so. After all, she's written her fair share of "I Hate Show Business" songs, and this one has a whole different feel. And how do these lines fit into your analysis?: <> Is she referring to David Geffen? I don't think so! <> Why segue from a description of Jesus & Mary Magdalene to a segue of Jesus & Zaccheus, if Jesus isn't a central reason for the song? And would Joni ever refer to herself as "A sinner of some position"? Maybe in a sarcastic way, but I don't hear the sarcasm here. The melody is pretty, as is her voice when she sings the song; very tender & kind. <> Refers to Jesus' miracles of healing and his charisma to reach large groups of people through his passion & compassion. <> Lifted straight from The Lord's Prayer... <> Finishes the Zaccheus story; Zaccheus' encounter with Jesus influenced him to return all the monies he had swindled, with a profit to boot. <> You said: "I think that her writing is often both less complicated and less linear than we as pundits might seek."...so why not interpret the above in a less complicated way? Joni wasn't "barren" be definition, she'd previously given birth. Why is there a "multitude" of Christ-like references, if he's not a prime motivation for the song? By the same token, "Judgement of the Moon & Stars" is all about Beethoven, and ALSO all about her... <> This one's the biggest stretch of all for me...do you sincerely think she chose the words "Exxon" & "radiation" at random, or because they sounded good with Blue & Rose? So be it, I guess, but I think you really have to dig a bit more than that. Don't get me wrong: we all bring our own wisdom & experiences to these songs, and neither of us is right or wrong. I enjoyed your post very much! Another point in this song is the pattern of the inserted words of the chorus: Ecstasy Misery Apathy Tragedy Is it random? Why not repeat the same word each time? Like I say, I don't know any more than the next guy, but I DO enjoy talking about it! Bob NP: Sugar, "Granny Cool" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 17:46:26 +0000 From: "c Karma" Subject: re: Passion Play Bob wrote me: do you sincerely think she chose the words "Exxon" & "radiation" at random, or because they sounded good with Blue & Rose? So be it, I guess, but I think you really have to dig a bit more than that. Speculating, I feel she wants us to think of specific colors here, perhaps only for an expressionistic purpose. Blue like that seen in the Exxon sign, and Rose like the eerie radiation glow seen on objects lit by sodium vapor street lights from above. The more I describe how simply I choose to interpret this, the more complicated and obtuse it gets. Some things are better left the province of one's own construction. This song may be one of them. CC "Then I started analyzing and I brought on my old ways." -- JM >From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com >To: , , > >Subject: re: Passion Play >Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 13:16:32 EDT > ><awakening she had in regard to control of her own career(s) in her various >art disciplines. >> > >You can certainly do that, CC, but I think it takes heavy denial to do so. >After all, she's written her fair share of "I Hate Show Business" songs, >and this one has a whole different feel. And how do these lines fit into >your analysis?: > ><> > >Is she referring to David Geffen? I don't think so! > ><Looking through the leaves >A sinner of some position >Who in the world can this heart healer be >This magical physician>> > >Why segue from a description of Jesus & Mary Magdalene to a segue of Jesus >& Zaccheus, if Jesus isn't a central reason for the song? And would Joni >ever refer to herself as "A sinner of some position"? Maybe in a sarcastic >way, but I don't hear the sarcasm here. The melody is pretty, as is her >voice when she sings the song; very tender & kind. > ><The walking wounded >They come to this diver of the heart>> > >Refers to Jesus' miracles of healing and his charisma to reach large groups >of people through his passion & compassion. > ><Thy will be done>> > >Lifted straight from The Lord's Prayer... > ><From the middle of unrest >They think is light is squandered >But he sees a stray in the wilderness >And I see how far I've wandered>> > >Finishes the Zaccheus story; Zaccheus' encounter with Jesus influenced him >to return all the monies he had swindled, with a profit to boot. > ><The buzzing of the flies >The buzzing and the stinging >Divinely barren >And wickedly wise >The killer nails are ringing>> > >You said: "I think that her writing is often both less complicated and less >linear than we as pundits >might seek."...so why not interpret the above in a less complicated way? >Joni wasn't "barren" be definition, she'd previously given birth. > >Why is there a "multitude" of Christ-like references, if he's not a prime >motivation for the song? By the same token, "Judgement of the Moon & Stars" >is all about Beethoven, and ALSO all about her... > ><simply colors, named like ones you would find in a Crayola crayon box. >> > >This one's the biggest stretch of all for me...do you sincerely think she >chose the words "Exxon" & "radiation" at random, or because they sounded >good with Blue & Rose? So be it, I guess, but I think you really have to >dig a bit more than that. > >Don't get me wrong: we all bring our own wisdom & experiences to these >songs, and neither of us is right or wrong. I enjoyed your post very much! > >Another point in this song is the pattern of the inserted words of the >chorus: > >Ecstasy >Misery >Apathy >Tragedy > >Is it random? Why not repeat the same word each time? > >Like I say, I don't know any more than the next guy, but I DO enjoy talking >about it! > >Bob > >NP: Sugar, "Granny Cool" _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 19:09:51 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: critical critics NJC > The impacts on unemployment are far from trivial, though. In the past two > years, by moving from a 39 hour to a 35 hour work week, France has put > one-third of it's unemployed back to work. As a result, business > confidence in France has risen to an all-time high.............." > Unemployment in this country is at an all time low-below what it was before 18 years of Tory govt. It rose to all time highs during their 18 years in power. Working less hours can only benfit family life. People are always blaming the young for how much trouble they cause, how they have no respect etc etc etc but with both parents out working all the ime or just a father who puts work before eveything else, what can you expect?(i do realise that poverty has a part here too which is often why both parents work long hours. Society needs to change to prevent this. Our chuildren are the MOST important investment we have and they are owed and deserve the very best we can give them-thy muct come before the 4x4, the large house, the ws tv the status, the promotion etc) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 19:13:36 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: the chelsea -njc "J. R. Mills" wrote: > I know there are any number of conspiracy theories, nevertheless, official > documents I din't know there had been any doubt about Vicous killing Nancy. Howver, just because 'official' documents say soemthing is true, doesn't make it so. the second sentence is the point I am making, not supporting or not, whetehr or not Vicous did it. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 14:06:36 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: re: Passion Play <> True, and regardless of interpretation, it's one of the prettiest songs on the record. It really stuck out the first time I heard it, and that was BEFORE I sat down with the lyrics, because I was listening to a tape of the record that my friend David had made me. Bob NP: The Subdudes, "late at night" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 11:08:20 -0700 From: Rick and Susan Subject: Re: what we're watching (NJC) I have difficulty understanding people who reject TV entirely. If you use it as entertainment in the same way as when you bring home a video, what's the difference? Commercials are easily avoided by taping and watching later. Otherwise the mute button works just fine. The production quality of the best shows on TV is comparable to many a commercial-run movie. And how often do you bring home an educational video that shows you real worlds you'll probably never experience, the way TV does on channels like Discovery? I've been to the depths of the ocean and to the top of Everest vicariously. Certainly there are a large number of lowest common denominator-type shows on TV but, you know. someone somewhere watches and enjoys them. Ranger Rick, who can't wait to see how Buffy comes back to life. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 19:16:54 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: what we're watching (NJC) the Teletubbies as i like to support gay propaganda and the eventual taking over of this world. Don Rowe wrote: > --- jan wrote: > > Buffy, Angel, X-Files. Jon Stewart's Daily Show. > > The occasional Springer. > > -jan > > McNeil/Leherer, Antiques Roadshow and Witchblade > (don't knock it 'til you've tried it!). ;-) > > Don Rowe > > ===== > Visit me anytime at http://www.mp3.com/donrowe > Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ - -- bw colin DAK,BRO GC, 950i 940,860,864, 260, 890,Silver 830 and 270, Passap 6000 Duo80 colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 13:18:19 -0500 From: "Sharon L. Buffington" Subject: Re: what we're watching (NJC) Yes!!! and get me my red purse! colin wrote: > > the Teletubbies as i like to support gay propaganda and the eventual taking > over of this world. > > Don Rowe wrote: > > > --- jan wrote: > > > Buffy, Angel, X-Files. Jon Stewart's Daily Show. > > > The occasional Springer. > > > -jan > > > > McNeil/Leherer, Antiques Roadshow and Witchblade > > (don't knock it 'til you've tried it!). ;-) > > > > Don Rowe > > > > ===== > > Visit me anytime at http://www.mp3.com/donrowe > > Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger > > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ > > -- > bw > colin > DAK,BRO GC, 950i 940,860,864, 260, 890,Silver 830 and 270, Passap 6000 > Duo80 > colin@tantra-apso.com > http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 12:12:59 -0700 From: "brian symes" Subject: vacation and missing the list NJC Thanks Sharon and other JoniHeads. I was on vacation now for the last 4 weeks at a childrens camp (I was Mr Seience in the Science Shack) on the Oregon Coast and back at Rondeau Park in Ontario, Canada. These posts about Passion Play and CM over the last couple of days make coming back to the net a little more Bearable! Brian Symes Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 15:14:31 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: even more TW quotations (NJC) I sent a friend the URL for Tom Waits quotations that someone (Kakki) posted to the list. He sent me the following: http://www.officialtomwaits.com/frame/biog.htm Click on Famous and Infamous Quotes. This page has different sections, such as Sex, Advice, The Moon, Friendship and lots more. Check it out! --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 12:15:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Alison E Subject: Re: Allman Bros and Phil Lesh and Friends(for all the dead heads in the room) (njc) i absolutely loved reading this victor! i hope to catch this show sometime this summer.i am surprised that you had never seen the allmans before. they put on a magical show, every time! and i loved your description of birdsong. it gave me the chills. alison e. in nyc np: talk of the nation, with juan williams who sucks compared to ray suarez. - --- Victor Johnson wrote: > I got to see the Allman Brothers along with Phil > Lesh and Friends close out > their tour in Georgia this weekend and together the > created some of the most > magical moments I have every experienced. > have ever had > experienced. He even changed the words to "All I > know is something like a > bird within him sang," making it a haunting tribute > to Jerry Garcia but in > the most fitting way and their harmony was so strong > and tight, brilliant > sounding really, echoing over the hill... > I felt transformed and transcended in a way I > haven't felt since I saw the > Grateful Dead for the last time in 1995. It had > this fragility to it and > yet it was so strong. > And if that wasn't enough, the Allman Brothers just > came and completely blew > me away. I hadn't been sure what to expect from > them and had mainly been > interested in seeing Phil but they completely > surpassed my expectations. I > don't know how to describe this but they did this 25 > minute version of > "Jessica" that was so powerful and beautiful I > literally felt like I was > being pulled out of my own body. Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 14:23:11 -0500 From: "Sharon L. Buffington" Subject: Re: vacation and missing the list NJC Dear Mr. Science: Why is up, up there? Welcome back. Sharon brian symes wrote: > > Thanks Sharon and other JoniHeads. > I was on vacation now for the last 4 weeks at a childrens camp (I was > Mr Seience in the Science Shack) on the Oregon Coast and back at > Rondeau Park in Ontario, Canada. > These posts about Passion Play and CM over the last couple of days > make coming back to the net a little more Bearable! > Brian Symes > > Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 14:43:04 -0500 From: "Sharon L. Buffington" Subject: Re: Passion Play Bob: I was thinking about Passion Play and then certain lines from "As You Like It" began lapping at my brian...and I hope this is accurate...but it goes: "And this our life, exempt from public haunt, Finds tongues in trees, books in the running brooks, Sermons in stones, and good in everything. I would not change it" Do not quote me on it though....long time since I learned it. We all find solace in different ways..... Sharon SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > > < art disciplines. >> > > You can certainly do that, CC, but I think it takes heavy denial to do so. After all, she's written her fair share of "I Hate Show Business" songs, and this one has a whole different feel. And how do these lines fit into your analysis?: > > <> > > Is she referring to David Geffen? I don't think so! > > < Looking through the leaves > A sinner of some position > Who in the world can this heart healer be > This magical physician>> > > Why segue from a description of Jesus & Mary Magdalene to a segue of Jesus & Zaccheus, if Jesus isn't a central reason for the song? And would Joni ever refer to herself as "A sinner of some position"? Maybe in a sarcastic way, but I don't hear the sarcasm here. The melody is pretty, as is her voice when she sings the song; very tender & kind. > > < The walking wounded > They come to this diver of the heart>> > > Refers to Jesus' miracles of healing and his charisma to reach large groups of people through his passion & compassion. > > < Thy will be done>> > > Lifted straight from The Lord's Prayer... > > < >From the middle of unrest > They think is light is squandered > But he sees a stray in the wilderness > And I see how far I've wandered>> > > Finishes the Zaccheus story; Zaccheus' encounter with Jesus influenced him to return all the monies he had swindled, with a profit to boot. > > < The buzzing of the flies > The buzzing and the stinging > Divinely barren > And wickedly wise > The killer nails are ringing>> > > You said: "I think that her writing is often both less complicated and less linear than we as pundits > might seek."...so why not interpret the above in a less complicated way? Joni wasn't "barren" be definition, she'd previously given birth. > > Why is there a "multitude" of Christ-like references, if he's not a prime motivation for the song? By the same token, "Judgement of the Moon & Stars" is all about Beethoven, and ALSO all about her... > > <> > > This one's the biggest stretch of all for me...do you sincerely think she chose the words "Exxon" & "radiation" at random, or because they sounded good with Blue & Rose? So be it, I guess, but I think you really have to dig a bit more than that. > > Don't get me wrong: we all bring our own wisdom & experiences to these songs, and neither of us is right or wrong. I enjoyed your post very much! > > Another point in this song is the pattern of the inserted words of the chorus: > > Ecstasy > Misery > Apathy > Tragedy > > Is it random? Why not repeat the same word each time? > > Like I say, I don't know any more than the next guy, but I DO enjoy talking about it! > > Bob > > NP: Sugar, "Granny Cool" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 14:47:32 -0500 From: "Sharon L. Buffington" Subject: Re: joni and kiss baby Diana's new CD is due out next month. I can hardly wait. shane mattison wrote: > > canada's national post has a sense of humour: > > < But you'll find them sidling up to each other in print soon. Pamela Wallin has > a book out in September that draws on interviews from Joni, Henry and scores > of others. It's called Speaking of Success: Collected Wisdom and Intimate > Insights (Key Porter Books).>> > FDRfan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 16:01:18 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: RE: Joni's rhymes This is a thing that Joni does that I love. She blows the meter with clarification. She mispronounces words to FORCE a rhyme. She's almost always exciting to listen to. She's anything but boring. (This from a woman who's most famous song includes the infamous rhyme "moons" and "junes". What was she thinking there? Did she do it on purpose, forcing us to think about the conventional? Surely not out of laziness! Lama *** Deb Messling had this take: OTOH, I can think of instances where she overlooks the obvious rhyme in favor of a word she likes better. (Emily Dickinson did the same thing). An early version of A Case of You has her rhyming "live in a box of paints" with "drawn to those ones that ain't." In the recorded version, she adds the word "afraid," which blows the meter as well as the rhyme, but clarifies the meaning. Actually, to change the subject, I like the FIRST version of the song, with the line "and I'm scared to death by saints." Me too! > Notice the way Joni uses words, even sometimes mispronouncing them to make > the rhyme work. Like in Don't Interrupt > the Sorrow, clandestine she uses in > conjunction with wine, when the correct > (according to the dictionary) way would > be to couple it with win, or sin. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 12:55:07 -0700 From: jan Subject: Re: what we're watching (NJC) At 11:08 AM 8/9/01 -0700, Rick and Susan wrote: (snip) >Ranger Rick, who can't wait to see how Buffy comes back to life. My guess is that Dawn will bring her back. Maybe with Tara's help. - -jan (can't wait either) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 12:51:10 -0600 From: Les Irvin Subject: List info Hi Joniphiles - A couple bits of info for you on the JMDL. For almost a year now, the list has been archived by an off-site service. It's interesting to check out their archive as the messages are sorted by thread and are searchable by keyword. Makes a nice resource for tracking down old posts quickly. It appears that they run anywhere from one to three days behind on their archiving, however. Find it here: http://www.mail-archive.com/joni%40smoe.org/ Here's the current breakdown on the list census. This does not take into account those who may be subbed to more than one list or under more than one address: Total of 814 subscribers: Joni list: 104 (12.7%) Joni-Digest list: 520 (63.8%) Only-Joni list: 40 (4.9%) Only-Joni-Digest list: 150 (18.4%) Back to lurk mode... Les ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 16:39:16 EDT From: Coyote4Joni@aol.com Subject: Re: Europe vs US On second thought NJC Way behind, but I have been reading with interest the experiences folks have had with their employers and their employer's benefit policies. I have always felt lucky and very, very grateful to my generous employer, and some of what I have read enforces my feelings. I have lived in the corporate upper middle management world for most of my career and work with similarly situated colleagues from diverse firms all over the country. My general view is that corporate life, for a working stiffs like us, ain't all that bad here in the good old USA. I have also always thought no place is a bad place to live as long as you learn how to live there. Vacation (holiday) time to me is one of the most important benefits offered by my employer. Luckily, unlike Kate's horrible experience, my Company insists we use ALL allotted vacation time, allowing only small carry-overs. It's not because we are also a Union shop, it's simply a management philosophy. Employee's are more productive when they have a good work/home life balance. We view vacation time as critical to home life balance. As a manager, I am not allowed, nor would I, forbid an employee from taking earned time off when it's needed and requested. Ours is a fairly normal corporate policy: 1-4 Years: Two weeks 5-9 Years: Three Weeks 10-14 Years: Four Weeks 15-19 Years: Five Weeks 20-?? Years: Six Weeks The thing I love -- an employee can also BUY or SELL a week. The price is equal to your weekly salary, spread out over the calendar year as a payroll deduction. I buy a week every year and use it up, as well. Having been around the place for 18 years, I've had six weeks/year for a long time. They also give us five floating holidays to be used for religious or other personal needs. I just read a report that our average tenure is 19.2 years, so at least half of us are getting about that much. I know that's the luxury of being with a large company, and it also has its drawbacks, but we gain from a large employer's need to be competitive to draw quality employees. I did a tour of duty in our HR department and learned a lot. How companies are benchmarked on benefits and how competitive others are for professional recruits, often using benfits as a lure. My Company spends an adder of 36-42% of an employee's annual salry on P&B (pension and benefits, which for a Fortune 500 corporation, isn't out of the norm, nor is our benefit package. I should also mention outstanding health care coverage, an education reimbursement program that completely paid for my second undergraduate degree and my law school degree, health club membership reimbursement, full retirement at 55 (in my case), liberal corporate travel policies (which I use a lot), dollar for dollar match of all my charitable contirbutions, and on and on and on. So, as I look at it, my dear old General Motors retiring grandfather and father were right. Go to college and go to work for a big outfit. You won't get rich, it may not be as exciting as some careers, but you'll be comfortable and probably not overworked. No regrets, Coyote Rick Casa Alegre Hollywood, California ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 17:00:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: critical critics NJC - --- Stephen Epstein wrote: > "Ken Evans wrote > France actually has this law now that says that if > you are ambitious > and want to get ahead by working more than 30 hours > a week that > you're not allowed to." > > There was an article in yesterdays Vancouver Sun- > "Why working less is good > business". > ... > Works for me!! > Me too! That's it - I'm moving to France! Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 17:04:46 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: RE: Joni's rhymes <<(This from a woman who's most famous song includes the infamous rhyme "moons" and "junes". What was she thinking there? Did she do it on purpose, forcing us to think about the conventional? >> Yes, I think she uses it for effect...after all, it's an internal rhyme, the actual rhyme as far as the song is concerned is "wheels, feel, real"...Moons/Junes is a bonus rhyme she gives us free of charge! ;~) It's one of the things that makes BSN such a great song. Bob NP: The Story, "So Much Mine" (a must-have for Jonatha fans) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 14:26:30 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: why join 'em? politics, money & the media -long (NJC) hell wrote: > You are one less consumer watching > the interminable advertisments that get played ad nauseum every ten minutes. > It may be an almost negligible impact, but if 1/2 a million other people > watching decide to turn off for a while, them those companies advertising at > that time are going to lose money, big time. > My "E-Z One Step Plan For Revolution" involves watching TV, especially commercials. Then you simply boycott any product advertised on the tube. Since it costs millions to advertise, you can quickly identify the soul-destroying slave labor conglomerates and avoid them. They dry up. Told you it was easy. It costs about 1/2 million dollars for a 30 second ad on "Who Wants To Be a Millionare". Also, have you rented a video lately? They have, like 20 minutes of commercials at the beginning. Thumbs up for The Simpsons, and just as good: King of the Hill. Daria is pretty good, too. RR, hooked on Sex and the City ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2001 #340 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?