From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2001 #335 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Tuesday, August 7 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 335 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. Information on the 4th "Annual" New England JoniFest: http://www.jmdl.com/jfne2001.cfm ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Today in Joni History: August 7 [les@jmdl.com] Re: Subject: Europe vs US On second thought NJC ["Marian" ] Re: what's in a name? NJC [colin ] Re: Subject: Europe vs US On second thought NJC [] Re: Subject: Europe vs US On second thought NJC ["Kakki" ] Re: what's in a name? NJC [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: what's in a name? NJC [colin ] Re: Subject: Europe vs US On second thought NJC [Dflahm@aol.com] RE: Joni's rhymes ["Deb Messling" ] Re: How Do you stop....where do you start? [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] boomtang boys [Nuriel Tobias ] Re: was [Fwd: Re: "Ape"-alled] vljc - now new bands [Catherine McKay ] Re: Joni's rhymes [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Joni's rhymes ["Suze Cameron" ] If you can't beat 'em - join 'em (NJC) ["Suze Cameron" ] Re: Joni's rhymes [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Subject: Europe vs US On second thought NJC ["Sharon L. Buffington" <] Re: Subject: Europe vs US On second thought NJC ["Sharon L. Buffington" <] Re: If you can't beat 'em - join 'em (NJC) ["Sharon L. Buffington" ] Re: Subject: Europe vs US On second thought NJC [jan ] Re: T. Waits "Foreign Affairs" NJC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Subject: Europe vs US On second thought NJC [Randy Remote ] Re: Joni's rhymes [Randy Remote ] Raised on Robbery ["shane mattison" ] Re: why join 'em? politics, money & the media - long (NJC) ["Brenda J. Wa] Carey cover [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Saskatchewan Legislature ["shane mattison" ] Re: If you can't beat 'em - join 'em (NJC) ["Suze Cameron" Subject: Re: Subject: Europe vs US On second thought NJC On 07 August 2001 12:27 AM "Sharon L. Buffington" wrote: > Do you think Joni and > her fans are republicans > or democrats? LOL I realize you put in LOL, but it's an interesting question. I would guess that democrats outnumber the republicans - liberals outnumbering conservatives. Joni seems pretty liberal-minded to me. But being liberal does not necessarily mean that you can't be republican, too, and there are a few republicans on our list. One thing I learned during this last election is that the essential ideas of republicans are smaller government, decentralization of social programs, less government control, lower taxes, etc. These things don't seem like such bad things on the surface, and I could even imagine myself joining up on the basis of these things. Two things stop me: the conservative religious views of many republicans and the fact that most wealthy powerful people are republicans. Why do the wealthy and powerful support this party? Because it helps them to become more wealthy and more powerful, or at least more easily retain what wealth and power they have already accumulated. The wealthy republicans seem to have a stance of "Anyone can make it if they try hard enough" - ignoring that there is poverty and that opportunities are not equal. They do not like being taxed and having their tax dollars spent on helping the little people. The conservative religious element frightens me even more. The founding fathers separated church and state for a good reason, and the conservatives would like to change that. This would open the door to religious/moral persecution and discrimination. Many republicans would like to disassociate themselves from their conservative religious faction, but because that group contains so many of their total number, they are unable to ignore them. I feel more comfortable with a party that cares about the welfare of the poorest citizens - that feels that there is a moral obligation to try to create enough for all. If every wealthy republican would agree to set up at least one non-religious social welfare program in his/her state, maybe I would consider joining their party. I hope this won't degenerate into a flame war. I probably have a simplistic view of these things. Politics is not my favorite issue, but certain things can get me going. I feel really worried about the current US government and the effect it will have on US citizens and their environment. Did anyone else hear that the US has pulled out of the anti-germ-warfare treaty talks? This has been a seven year process and they were nearing agreement on a treaty and the US pulled out. Scary! Marian marian@jmdl.com http://www.jmdl.com/guitar/marian/guitar.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 08:44:24 +0100 From: LXROSS@ctrl.co.uk Subject: Re: what's in a name? NJC All this talk about unexpected or odd names. The guy who sits next to me at work and who goes by the name Ali, was christened Alison........I've never heard of that name being given to a guy...or have I just lead a sheltered life. Les (London - 24 days to go....eeeeh!) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 09:10:09 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: what's in a name? NJC > "oh hi, it's, ah, Mulva isn't it?!" okay. I don't know this word. explain? > > > Azeem > > NP: coverage of the world athletics championships. That Cathy Freeman, > studio guest: superb athlete, boy is she dippy! - -- bw colin DAK,BRO GC, 950i 940,860,864, 260, 890,Silver 830 and 270, Passap 6000 Duo80 colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 09:12:52 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: what's in a name? NJC > There was a woman at work whose first name was Lesbia. > you have to wonder what her parents were thinking - > or maybe it's a European name, who knows? Everyone > called her "Les". poor woman! never heard the name before. I knew an American boy at school named Forest Plant. > > Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca - -- bw colin DAK,BRO GC, 950i 940,860,864, 260, 890,Silver 830 and 270, Passap 6000 Duo80 colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 09:59:46 +0100 From: Subject: Re: Subject: Europe vs US On second thought NJC > > Do you think Joni and her fans are republicans or democrats? LOL > I think she's Green. Philip ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 01:55:18 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Subject: Europe vs US On second thought NJC I think Philip wins. ;-D > > > Do you think Joni and her fans are republicans or democrats? LOL > > > > I think she's Green. > > Philip ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 11:00:24 +0100 From: Gordon Mackie Subject: Birth Control Checked the sheet music for 'How Do you Stop' yesterday.. and have to agree with Kakki...that baby was being born even then (1986). Snot a Joni lyric at all. A Mitchell- free zone all round..except she does sing it well and I'm sure like any singer worth their salt, she brought her own life experince to bear on her interpretation. 'He comes for constipation' was a story about.....zzzzzzz I feel a competition coming on ..... More later..... Gordon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 06:30:13 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: what's in a name? NJC In a message dated 07/08/01 09:02:34 GMT Daylight Time, colin@tantra-apso.com writes: << > "oh hi, it's, ah, Mulva isn't it?!" okay. I don't know this word. explain? > >> Colin, I hadn't tagged you for an innocent! Jerry had clearly got it into his head that this woman's name rhymed with a part of the female genitalia, and instead of Dolores (clitoris), he came out with Mulva (I'm sure you've got it now :-) AAAAAAnyway, moving right along... Azeem ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 11:49:21 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: what's in a name? NJC Oh okay, got it know. I didn't get it at all! AzeemAK@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 07/08/01 09:02:34 GMT Daylight Time, colin@tantra-apso.com > writes: > > << > "oh hi, it's, ah, Mulva isn't it?!" > > okay. I don't know this word. explain? > > > >> > Colin, I hadn't tagged you for an innocent! Jerry had clearly got it into > his head that this woman's name rhymed with a part of the female genitalia, > and instead of Dolores (clitoris), he came out with Mulva (I'm sure you've > got it now :-) > > AAAAAAnyway, moving right along... > > Azeem - -- bw colin DAK,BRO GC, 950i 940,860,864, 260, 890,Silver 830 and 270, Passap 6000 Duo80 colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 07:00:25 EDT From: Dflahm@aol.com Subject: Re: Subject: Europe vs US On second thought NJC "Less government control" was one of the Republican tenets listed in your post, Marian. I have to ask "Which government are we talking about, Federal or local?" And, perhaps more provocatively, "Which government are we talking about, elected or unelected?" IMO, human nature includes a competitive urge which not only helps the organism to survive but also--unfortunately--leads individuals to try to dominate others. It is the inseparable overlapping of these two effects which underlies the imperfections of capitalism and socialism. The evolution of governmental philosophies is, I believe, a continuing attempt to channel competitive energies in the direction of the "humane" without crushing those energies. To be very brief, the biggest reason I reject the Republican Party in America is that I believe they are not honest and candid about the "power elites" and local machines which characterize almost every community, rewarding--to an overwhelming and unhealthy extent--money and competitiveness at the expense of those who don't compete well. Democrats have plenty of faults; too but I believe they shine the Federal light on these dark corners sometimes and, if they are far from perfect, at least encourage those whose altruism and sense of fair play are greater than the average--and who, therefore, don't get into the government game. DAVID LAHM ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 07:12:37 -0400 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: RE: Joni's rhymes OTOH, I can think of instances where she overlooks the obvious rhyme in favor of a word she likes better. (Emily Dickinson did the same thing). An early version of A Case of You has her rhyming "live in a box of paints" with "drawn to those ones that ain't." In the recorded version, she adds the word "afraid," which blows the meter as well as the rhyme, but clarifies the meaning. Actually, to change the subject, I like the FIRST version of the song, with the line "and I'm scared to death by saints." Me too! > Notice the way Joni uses words, even sometimes mispronouncing them to make > the rhyme work. Like in Don't Interrupt > the Sorrow, clandestine she uses in > conjunction with wine, when the correct > (according to the dictionary) way would > be to couple it with win, or sin. > - ----------------------------------- Deb Messling =^..^= - ----------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 07:49:07 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: How Do you stop....where do you start? <> Thanks for clearing that up, Kakki...like I said, it wasn't something I had noticed, and I've heard the JB version many times. Also, it doesn't feel like Joni's lyric a'tall... Bob NP: Becker/Fagen, "Ida Lee" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 05:37:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: boomtang boys there's a very sweet and cool version of both sides now by a dance group named boomtang boys which i've found on the audiogalaxy's mp3. try to load it if you can and have fun. cio. nuriel _____________________________________________________________ Free email, web pages, news, entertainment, weather and MORE! Check out -------------------------------> http://wowmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 09:15:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: was [Fwd: Re: "Ape"-alled] vljc - now new bands - --- "Brenda J. Walker" > > > > Train - Drops Of Jupiter (massive, or so we are > told, in the US of late, > > it's nothing new but still a very pleasing > collection of soft-rock with > > occasional rusitc touches, as on the gorgeous > Mississippi). > > I agree; it is very derivative and not my particular > cup of tea. It has > sold platinum and has been in the top 20 since the > release in April which is > massive considering what the rest of the top 20 > looks like these days. > This Train song, Drops of Jupiter seems to be very popular here too and I can't for the life of me figure out why. Brenda, you put it very well by calling it "derivative". To me, it sounds like something from the 70s, or the type of song most bar bands would be doing back then - nothing particularly new or interesting about it at all. Given a choice,I'd rather listen to Destiny's Child! ;) Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 09:21:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: what's in a name? NJC - --- LXROSS@ctrl.co.uk wrote: > All this talk about unexpected or odd names. The guy > who sits next to me at > work and who goes by the name Ali, was christened > Alison........I've never > heard of that name being given to a guy...or have I > just lead a sheltered > life. > Well, it does end with "son"... Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 09:42:35 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni's rhymes <> Sue, I would say that Joni was strongly influenced by her teacher Mr. Kratzman, who would "red-line" her poetry and creative writing with the words CLICHE! all over it. I think the experience instilled in her the habit of looking for uncommon ways to say things, like sorrow instead of sadness, "Passport smiles" instead of "phony smiles", bending a word Ogden Nash-style to make it work in a rhyme scheme, etc. Yet she also knows when NOT to be overly metaphoric and flowery, and when the best line is the most direct: "All I really want to do right now is find another lover"... Bob NP: Becker/Fagen, "Barrytown" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 10:05:56 -0400 From: "Suze Cameron" Subject: Re: Joni's rhymes >I would say that Joni was strongly influenced by her teacher Mr. Kratzman, who would "red-line" her poetry and creative writing with the words CLICHE! all over it. Thank goodness for teachers like Kratzman! There is something about her lyrics that I love and I know that originality is the biggest factor. Descriptiveness a close second. Is it due to the way she mixes directness with obscurity? Sue n.p. Led Zep - Dazed and Confused Get 250 color business cards for FREE! http://businesscards.lycos.com/vp/fastpath/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 10:12:59 -0400 From: "Suze Cameron" Subject: If you can't beat 'em - join 'em (NJC) O.k., now I am really going to fan the flames (Sue, always telling herself to stay out of the political arena, now jumping in headfirst). Rules for being a good Republican: 1.You have to believe that the nation's past 8 year prosperity was due to the work of Ronald Reagan and George Bush, but that yesterday's gas prices are all Bill Clinton's fault. 2.You have to despise government programs, but expect Social Security checks on time. 3.You have to believe that government should stay out of peoples' lives, yet you want government to regulate same-sex marriages, ending or not ending pregnancies, and what official language should be spoken by US citizens. 4.You have to believe that pollution is okay, so long as it makes a profit. It is even better if it's in another state. 5.You have to sponsor prayer in public schools, as long as you don't pray to Allah or Buddha. 6.You have to believe that only your own teenagers are still virgins. 7.You have to believe that a woman cannot be trusted with decisions about her own body, but that large, multinational corporations should have absolutely no regulations or interference. 8.You love Jesus and Jesus loves you and you're certain that Jesus shares your hatred of AIDS victims, homosexuals, labor unions and Hillary Clinton. 9.You have to believe that society is colorblind and growing up black in America doesn't diminish your opportunities-but you still wouldn't ever vote for Allan Keyes. 10.You have to believe that it was wise to allow Ken Starr to spend $50 million to attack Clinton because no other US Presidents have ever been unfaithful to their wives. 11.You have to declare that a waiting period for purchasing a handgun is bad because quick access to a new firearm is an important concern for all Americans-even children and felons. 12.You have to believe it is wise to keep condoms out of schools because, of course, if teenagers don't have condoms they won't have sex. 13.You have to believe that the ACLU is bad for defending the Constitution, while the NRA is good for defending the Constitution. 14.You have to believe the AIDS virus is not important enough to deserve federal funding proportionate to the resulting death rate and that the public doesn't need to be educated about it, because if we just ignore it, it will go away. 15.You have to believe that biology teachers are corrupting the morals of 6th graders if they teach them the basics of human sexuality, but the Bible, which is full of sex and violence, is good reading at any age. 16.You have to believe that Chinese communist missiles have killed more Americans than drugs, alcohol and tobacco. 17.You have to believe that, even though governments have supported the arts for 5,000 years and that most of the great works of Renaissance art were paid for by governments, our government should shun any such support. After all, the rich can afford to buy their own and the poor don't need any. 18.You have to believe that the lumber from the last one percent of old growth US forests is well worth the destruction of those forests and the extinction of the several species of plants and animals therein. 19.You have to believe that we should forgive and pray for Newt Gingrich, Henry Hyde, and Bob Livingston for their marital infidelities, but that the bastard Bill Clinton should never be forgiven. 20.You have to believe that George W. Bush REALLY won the election of November 2000. And let us not forget to bow in proper obeisance to His Royal Dubyaness, never forgetting his record in Texas: 1st Children without Health insurance (%) 1st Toxic Air Releases. 1st Smog Days (Houston) 3rd Hunger (%) 5th Highest Teen Birth Rate 45th Mothers Receiving Pre-Natal Care 46th Public Libraries and Branches 46th High School Completion Rate 46th Water Resources Protection 47th Delivery of Social Services 48th Per Capita Funding for Public Health 48th Best Place to Raise Children 48th Spending for Parks and recreation 48th Spending for the Arts 49th Spending for the Environment 50th Teachers' Salaries plus Benefits Get 250 color business cards for FREE! http://businesscards.lycos.com/vp/fastpath/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 10:29:39 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni's rhymes <> It's all those things; it's the way she can take a lyric like the one I quoted from "Song For Sharon", and in the midst of describing her own experiences, throw in a line or 2 that makes it universal. There are lines that ONLY SHE could have written, just like only Steely Dan could have written: "I crawl like a viper through these suburban streets, Make love to these women, languid & bittersweet"...has anyone else ever used the word "languid" in a rock and roll song? That's why Hejira is so brilliant to me; Damn near EVERY WORD on it is so original. Bob NP: Steely Dan, "Josie", 6/3/00 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 10:01:11 -0500 From: "Sharon L. Buffington" Subject: Re: Subject: Europe vs US On second thought NJC Marian wrote: "The wealthy republicans seem to have a stance of "Anyone can make it if they try hard enough" - ignoring that there is poverty and that opportunities are not equal. They do not like being taxed and having their tax dollars spent on helping the little people Oh wise woman Marian...You have stated things in the very best of words and thought. I could not agree with you more on your reasoning. I believe the thing which separates people is the lack of compassion for those caught in the struggle for survival...the schism between ascribed and achieved status Marian also states "The conservative religious element frightens me even more. The founding fathers separated church and state for a good reason, and the conservatives would like to change that. This would open the door to religious/moral persecution and discrimination. Many republicans would like to disassociate themselves from their conservative religious faction, but because that group contains so many of their total number, they are unable to ignore them. I feel more comfortable with a party that cares about the welfare of the poorest citizens - that feels that there is a moral obligation to try to create enough for all." Absolutely correct. Because states did not separate church and state, the supremes ultimately had to make decisions. Whether it be on issues of abortion, privacy, or discrimination, states tried to take control and run over a person's right. Women could do as they wished with their bodies, it was illegal in most states..and is in some to this day, to have sex in anything other than the missionary (always an interesting choice of words to me) position, and non-whites were dealt with in a multitude of unseemly ways. What IS our Constitution about? It means you can believe as you want to believe...you can speak as you wish...but you may not enslave a person because she or he does not believe as you do. You shall not enslave a woman's body, you shall not tell people how they can be sexual, you shall not enslave certain people to a diminished education, poor accommodations, lowly employment, and so on BY LAW. I love the law. I do not love many of our laws but I stand for less government telling us what to do when their words are to enslave and in direct conflict with the constitution. I better get off my soap box here...I am humming "We Shall Overcome" LOL Peace........Sharon...bound for the JoniFest. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 10:07:01 -0500 From: "Sharon L. Buffington" Subject: Re: Subject: Europe vs US On second thought NJC RIGHT ON DAVID!!! Dflahm@aol.com wrote: > > "Less government control" was one of the Republican tenets listed in your > post, Marian. I have to ask "Which government are we talking about, Federal > or local?" > And, perhaps more provocatively, "Which government are we talking about, > elected or unelected?" > IMO, human nature includes a competitive urge which not only helps the > organism to survive but also--unfortunately--leads individuals to try to > dominate others. It is the inseparable overlapping of these two effects which > underlies the imperfections of capitalism and socialism. The evolution of > governmental philosophies is, I believe, a continuing attempt to channel > competitive energies in the direction of the "humane" > without crushing those energies. > > To be very brief, the biggest reason I reject the Republican Party in America > is that I believe they are not honest and candid about the "power elites" and > local machines which characterize almost every community, rewarding--to an > overwhelming and unhealthy extent--money and competitiveness at the expense > of those who don't compete well. Democrats have plenty of faults; too but I > believe they shine the Federal light on these dark corners sometimes and, if > they are far from perfect, at least encourage those whose altruism and sense > of fair play are greater than the average--and who, therefore, don't get into > the government game. > > > DAVID LAHM ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 10:12:11 -0500 From: "Sharon L. Buffington" Subject: Re: If you can't beat 'em - join 'em (NJC) Sue...discussion is good. I loved your words! Peace.......Sharon... Suze Cameron wrote: > > O.k., now I am really going to fan the > flames (Sue, always telling herself to > stay out of the political arena, now jumping in headfirst). > > Rules for being a good Republican: > > 1.You have to believe that the nation's past 8 year prosperity was due to the > work of Ronald Reagan and George Bush, but that yesterday's gas prices are > all Bill Clinton's fault. > > 2.You have to despise government programs, but expect Social Security checks > on time. > > 3.You have to believe that government should stay out of peoples' lives, yet > you want government to regulate same-sex marriages, ending or not ending > pregnancies, and what official language should be spoken by US citizens. > > 4.You have to believe that pollution is okay, so long as it makes a profit. > It is even better if it's in another state. > > 5.You have to sponsor prayer in public schools, as long as you don't pray to > Allah or Buddha. > > 6.You have to believe that only your own teenagers are still virgins. > > 7.You have to believe that a woman cannot be trusted with decisions about her > own body, but that large, multinational corporations should have absolutely > no regulations or interference. > > 8.You love Jesus and Jesus loves you and you're certain that Jesus shares > your hatred of AIDS victims, homosexuals, labor unions and Hillary Clinton. > > 9.You have to believe that society is colorblind and growing up black in > America doesn't diminish your opportunities-but you still wouldn't ever vote for Allan Keyes. > > 10.You have to believe that it was wise to allow Ken Starr to spend $50 > million to attack Clinton because no other US Presidents have ever been > unfaithful to their wives. > > 11.You have to declare that a waiting period for purchasing a handgun is bad > because quick access to a new firearm is an important concern for all > Americans-even children and felons. > > 12.You have to believe it is wise to keep condoms out of schools because, of > course, if teenagers don't have condoms they won't have sex. > > 13.You have to believe that the ACLU is bad for defending the Constitution, > while the NRA is good for defending the Constitution. > > 14.You have to believe the AIDS virus is not important enough to deserve > federal funding proportionate to the resulting death rate and that the public > doesn't need to be educated about it, because if we just ignore it, it will > go away. > > 15.You have to believe that biology teachers are corrupting the morals of 6th > graders if they teach them the basics of human sexuality, but the Bible, > which is full of sex and violence, is good reading at any age. > > 16.You have to believe that Chinese communist missiles have killed more > Americans than drugs, alcohol and tobacco. > > 17.You have to believe that, even though governments have supported the arts > for 5,000 years and that most of the great works of Renaissance art were paid > for by governments, our government should shun any such support. After all, > the rich can afford to buy their own and the poor don't need any. > > 18.You have to believe that the lumber from the last one percent of old > growth US forests is well worth the destruction of those forests and the > extinction of the several species of plants and animals therein. > > 19.You have to believe that we should forgive and pray for Newt Gingrich, > Henry Hyde, and Bob Livingston for their marital infidelities, but that the > bastard Bill Clinton should never be forgiven. > > 20.You have to believe that George W. Bush REALLY won the election of > November 2000. > > And let us not forget to bow in proper obeisance to His Royal Dubyaness, > never forgetting his record in Texas: > > 1st Children without Health insurance (%) > 1st Toxic Air Releases. > 1st Smog Days (Houston) > 3rd Hunger (%) > 5th Highest Teen Birth Rate > 45th Mothers Receiving Pre-Natal Care > 46th Public Libraries and Branches > 46th High School Completion Rate > 46th Water Resources Protection > 47th Delivery of Social Services > 48th Per Capita Funding for Public Health > 48th Best Place to Raise Children > 48th Spending for Parks and recreation > 48th Spending for the Arts > 49th Spending for the Environment > 50th Teachers' Salaries plus Benefits > > Get 250 color business cards for FREE! > http://businesscards.lycos.com/vp/fastpath/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 10:26:59 -0500 From: "Sharon L. Buffington" Subject: Re: Subject: Europe vs US On second thought NJC I said Women could do as they wished with their > bodies, it was illegal in most states.. I meant to say women could NOT do as they wished with their bodies "Sharon L. Buffington" wrote: > > Marian wrote: > > "The wealthy republicans seem to have a stance of "Anyone can make it if > they try hard enough" - ignoring that there is poverty and that > opportunities are not equal. They do not like being taxed and having > their tax dollars spent on helping the little people > > Oh wise woman Marian...You have stated things in the very best of words > and thought. I could not agree with you more on your reasoning. > > I believe the thing which separates people is the lack of compassion for > those caught in the struggle for survival...the schism between ascribed > and achieved status > > Marian also states > > "The conservative religious element frightens me even more. The > founding fathers separated church and state for a good reason, and the > conservatives would like to change that. This would open the door to > religious/moral persecution and discrimination. Many republicans would > like to disassociate themselves from their conservative religious > faction, but because that group contains so many of their total number, > they are unable to ignore them. I feel more comfortable with a party > that cares about the welfare of the poorest citizens - that feels that > there is a moral obligation to try to create enough for all." > > Absolutely correct. Because states did not separate church and state, > the supremes ultimately had to make decisions. Whether it be on issues > of abortion, privacy, or discrimination, states tried to take control > and run over a person's right. Women could do as they wished with their > bodies, it was illegal in most states..and is in some to this day, to > have sex in anything other than the missionary (always an interesting > choice of words to me) position, and non-whites were dealt with in a > multitude of unseemly ways. What IS our Constitution about? > > It means you can believe as you want to believe...you can speak as you > wish...but you may not enslave a person because she or he does not > believe as you do. You shall not enslave a woman's body, you shall not > tell people how they can be sexual, you shall not enslave certain people > to a diminished education, poor accommodations, lowly employment, and so > on BY LAW. > > I love the law. I do not love many of our laws but I stand for less > government telling us what to do when their words are to enslave and in > direct conflict with the constitution. > > I better get off my soap box here...I am humming "We Shall Overcome" > LOL > > Peace........Sharon...bound for the JoniFest. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 15:41:40 +0000 From: "c Karma" Subject: T. Waits "Foreign Affairs" NJC Bob wrote: NP: Tom Waits, "Muriel" I had to chuckle when I remembered reading that the song was written about a cigar. (Remember Edie Adams doing their TV COMMERCIALS?) It's from my favorite Tom Waits album, "Foreign Affairs" which was recorded directly to 2-track with a full symphony orchestra. You can hear on a few tracks where the horn section is a little aggressive on the attack and blasts the sound engineers out (no level remixes allowed). Joe Jackson tried a similar trick a few years later with "Body and Soul." The Waits record also has probably MY FAVORITE SONG OF ALL TIME (to date), BY ANY WRITER: "Burma Shave." The first line: "Licorice tattoo turned a gunmetal blue, scrawled across the shoulders of a dying town." and later, "With her knees up on the glove compartment, she took out her barrettes, and her hair spilled out like root beer and she popped her gum and arched her back. JUST PHENOMENAL. Seek it out, folks it's worth it. CC _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 08:46:43 -0700 From: jan Subject: Re: Subject: Europe vs US On second thought NJC >> > > Do you think Joni and her fans are republicans or democrats? LOL >> I think she's Green. >> >> Philip Blue. - -jan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 12:12:56 -0400 From: slarty Subject: Re: T. Waits "Foreign Affairs" NJC Hi all. I've been basically lurking lately or as I like to say - in the shadows. Just thought I'd pop in and say hello. As for Tom Waits - I always wondered if TW actually wrote Foreign Affair. The lyrics are so different from what he usually writes. They sound more as if they were written by somebody who writes broadway tunes where in most Waits tunes they come across as a jive hipster. Since I haven't heard all Waits stuff can you point me to any other songs of his that are similar in style to FA. Back to the shadows again. c Karma wrote: > Bob wrote: > NP: Tom Waits, "Muriel" > > I had to chuckle when I remembered reading that the song was written about a > cigar. (Remember Edie Adams doing their TV COMMERCIALS?) It's from my > favorite Tom Waits album, "Foreign Affairs" which was recorded directly to > 2-track with a full symphony orchestra. You can hear on a few tracks where > the horn section is a little aggressive on the attack and blasts the sound > engineers out (no level remixes allowed). Joe Jackson tried a similar > trick a few years later with "Body and Soul." > > The Waits record also has probably MY FAVORITE SONG OF ALL TIME (to date), > BY ANY WRITER: "Burma Shave." The first line: "Licorice tattoo turned a > gunmetal blue, scrawled across the shoulders of a dying town." and later, > "With her knees up on the glove compartment, she took out her barrettes, and > her hair spilled out like root beer and she popped her gum and arched her > back. JUST PHENOMENAL. Seek it out, folks it's worth it. > > CC > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 12:53:06 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: T. Waits "Foreign Affairs" NJC <> I would never have thought that, Ken...can you be more specific as to which lyrics you're referring to? Or just the general tone of the album? FA is brilliant, and very similar in my mind to Blue Valentine & Heartattack & Vine, which came out around the same general period. "Potter's Field" from FA is Tom Waits' 'Paprika Plains', I think... Jack & Neal/California, Here I Come is CLASSIC Waits. NOBODY else could have written it. Same goes for most of the songs on it, I would say. And, also like Blue Valentine, it features Rickie Lee Jones on the cover! Bob, always up for a TW thread! NP: Steely Dan, "Cousin Dupree" 6/3/00 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 10:11:19 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Subject: Europe vs US On second thought NJC While I am loathe to get entangled in another protracted and probably pointless (has anyone ever changed their views after- wards?) political discussion,,,,,,uh,,,,well, a couple reactions. A: the question about whether Joni and her admirers are Dem or Rep::: lets just hope more people are choosing "none of the above"....(more)....>> Marian wrote: > One thing I learned during this last election > is that the essential ideas of republicans are smaller government, This is PR talk designed to appeal to the common man. What it really means is that they don't want big government when it comes to pesky things like pollution standards, worker rights, laws preventing monopolies, environmental protection, etc etc. Big government is a good pal for pork-barrel sweetheart pentagon projects, jailing marajuana smokers, peering into peoples private lives, outlawing abortion..... > > decentralization of social programs, "elimination" - or let the states and counties that want it and can't afford it deal with it. > less government control, see above > lower taxes, read his dad's lips > I feel more comfortable with a party that cares > about the welfare of the poorest citizens - I'm not sure which party you are referring to. Couldn't be the Democrats, who under Clinton have dismantled the welfare system, and while talking about job placement programs, have not really provided them, pushing many kids and poor families further into poverty and hunger. The US has a huge number of malnurished people compared to other developed countries. For the life of me, I've never understood why the Republicans didn't love Clinton. Maybe they were jealous that he did what they only had wet dreams about. > > I feel really worried about the current US government and > the effect it will have on US citizens and their environment. Did anyone > else hear that the US has pulled out of the anti-germ-warfare treaty talks? > This has been a seven year process and they were nearing agreement on a > treaty and the US pulled out. Scary! The mainstream media is not interested in such things. I heard a reporter who was in Genoa (this was on an alternative radio news show) talking about coming back to the US and being blown away by the lack of coverage of the indiscriminate police brutality there. He said that in Europe it was major headline news every day, with much inquiry, editorializing, outcry. He said that just getting to Genoa was an ordeal, you had to walk because the city was basically cordoned off and cross-fenced into little squares. The residents were encouraged to leave. He finally made it to a press area that seemed peaceful and he considered safe. The cops closed all the exits and went nuts assaulting and beating innocent people. And of course they shot and killed that unarmed Italian man. The coverage here by the TV news referred to 'skirmishes' between police and violent protesters. It's like the Gulf War- they had media blackouts and 'controlled' reporting pools- most Americans are to this day unaware that we killed 100,00 Iraqi civilians with our 'smart' bombs. This Orwellian control of information is what scares me. RR ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 18:20:49 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: If you can't beat 'em - join 'em (NJC) You will burn i Hell for this, Sue. you wicked woman you! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 10:17:20 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Joni's rhymes Deb Messling wrote: > OTOH, I can think of instances where she overlooks the obvious rhyme in > favor of a word she likes better. (Emily Dickinson did the same thing). An > early version of A Case of You has her rhyming "live in a box of paints" > with "drawn to those ones that ain't." In the recorded version, she adds > the word "afraid," which blows the meter as well as the rhyme, but clarifies > the meaning. Every time I hear this I want to tell her to leave off the word "afraid". It messes up a brilliant couplet. Everything else she has done lyrically is perfekt. RR ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 11:55:09 -0600 From: "shane mattison" Subject: Raised on Robbery Virtual Saskatchewan has a list of famous saskabushers...and, guess what, they celebrate joni mitchell first - at the top of the list, with photo... they also add the fascinating tidbit that Raised on Robbery "was written in and about Regina's Empire Hotel"... now parts of downtown Regina can be pretty tacky...complete with roaming aboriginals "smashed on railray avenue"... it all makes sense that the tackiness described in Raised on Robbery would be a part of this setting... ...The Waltons' most recent album, full of prairie references, is also entitled "Empire Hotel"... ...to visit Virtual Saskatchewan's list where joni is 'number one' -and leave your comments: http://www.virtualsk.com/current_issue/saskatchewans_own.html shane http://www.angelfire.com/art/cactussong ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 10:54:18 -0700 From: "Brenda J. Walker" Subject: Re: why join 'em? politics, money & the media - long (NJC) As others have disclaimed before sending a political post, so shall I. Mostly because, although the political debates on this list are fiery and heartfelt, they seem to be about the same things that U.S. political debates are always about. What remains surprising to me is how dichotomized the list is when it comes to political parties, particularly when the two parties are more alike than different on the most important issue - how the legislators represent us, or rather how they represent who pays them. (There's a great web site called Open Secrets - http://www.opensecrets.org. Anyone effected by U.S. politics would find what's published there very interesting.) Suze Cameron wrote: > Rules for being a good Republican: I sometimes wonder if the continued drumming of the party differences by our mostly partial, corporate media is designed to keep us talking about the differences, rather than common goals. Political discussions or debates frequently breakdown to a trading of the media stereotypes that are put forward to describe both parties, when the truth is that there is alot of gray area in terms of what individuals believe. There's even gray area in terms of what the parties represent. But perhaps our attention is supposed to be diverted from that so we don't really acknowledge what's going on. The media in our country sucks for the most part. We have been dumbed down by USA Today type summary style reporting and sound bytes. Very few outlets are impartial. You can pick up almost any paper and by reading an article or two determine the political stance of the publication. Broadcasters on the evening news are no longer shy about using words that reveal their own political beliefs. I was absolutely stunned by this in the coverage of the election last year. We are effected by media language in more ways than we may realize - not only does it feed our prejudices but it also feeds our arrogant, U.S.-centric ignorance. If you live in the States, watch the local evening news and national news and clock how many minutes are spent on the rest of the world and global issues. We live in a global economy yet we are supposed to remain ignorant about what goes on outside the U.S. Sadly, most people in the U.S. can't even answer basic world geography questions, let alone discuss what happened in Balkans or the political history of the Kyoto treaty. We don't live in a democracy; we live in a republic. And the real groups controlling the republic (and the media for that matter) - political action committees (PAC's) and wealthy givers are doing so from both sides of the aisle and they don't want things to change. In fact, most PAC giving is overwhelmingly directed to incumbents - http://www.opensecrets.org/pubs/bigpicture2000/pac/sector.ihtml . And politicians recognize this point which is why their policy positions are largely inflexible. (Here's a real interesting paper on that very notion - http://econpapers.hhs.se/paper/nbrnberwo/7475.htm ) Politicians are like huge boats; they cannot quickly change direction, even when the situation calls for it. When it comes to political stances, flexibility is not rewarded even if it would be in the best interest of the people. Marian wrote: > I could even imagine myself joining up on the basis of these things. Two > things stop me: the conservative religious views of many republicans and > the fact that most wealthy powerful people are republicans. Why do the > wealthy and powerful support this party? Because it helps them to become > more wealthy and more powerful, or at least more easily retain what wealth > and power they have already accumulated. You may find this interesting. Nine of the top ten individual contributors (i.e. wealthy people) in the 2000 elections were solidly democratic with the 10th person giving almost equally to both parties. In fact Democratic supporters dominate the top 20 of this list. http://www.opensecrets.org/2000elect/storysofar/topindivs.asp Seven of the top ten overall contributors were strongly democratic. Of the remaining two, AT&T leans Republican, Citigroup is on the fence and Microsoft (the company of the wealthiest man in the world) is on the fence, giving 47% to Democrats and 52% to Republicans. http://www.opensecrets.org/2000elect/storysofar/topcontribs.asp The top 20 of this list is split 50/50 between Democrats and Republicans. And that is the real story. Wealthy people and groups control both parties, not just the Republicans. They just do it in different ways depending on which group they are supporting. Dems seem to have more wealthy individual contributors and they own the labor unions (how corrupt are they!) and Republicans lead in soft money. The end result is the same. Take a good look at our Congress. Women are the majority in our country, yet there only 13 women in the 100 member Senate and only 61 women in the 435 member House. Our country is controlled by older white men of European ancestry (in both parties) - even though that is just one view. (Here's another problem I have with the media - ever watch the weekend pundit shows? How often do you see women on those shows? Better still have you ever seen an Asian congressperson on Meet the Press?) Think about how exciting it could be if instead of challenging each other over our differences, we challenged the media and the politicians in support of our common goals. Brenda n.p: silence ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 13:54:50 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Carey cover <> Shane, I hit her website and it doesn't look to me that there's a cover of Carey there...if I'm mistaken, please tell me. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 12:30:32 -0600 From: "shane mattison" Subject: Saskatchewan Legislature joni mitchell is cited as a proud example of the achievement of saskatchewan women on International Women's Day in the Provincial Legislature of Saskatchewan: Mr. Britton: -- Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, it's a pleasure also for me also to stand in my place and speak on this motion, asking that the Assembly commit itself to further the equality and the well-being of women in Saskatchewan. International Women's Day has been so designated as an opportunity for people to reflect on the struggles that women have endured and the goals that women have achieved throughout the world. Saskatchewan is home to many successful women, Mr. Speaker, including I would say, the Lieutenant Governor and physicist, Sylvia Fedoruk; two Canadian . . . two-time Canadian curling champions, the Sandra Peterson team; former Governor General, Jeanne Sauve pi; author, Maggie Siggins; and singer, Joni Mitchell. Mr. Speaker, these are all Saskatchewanians but . . . well not a Saskatchewanian, we also saw the first woman prime minister in the history of Canada in Kim Campbell, which indicates, Mr. Speaker, the long, hard road that the women have fought does seem to be bearing fruit. And, Mr. Speaker, this is but a small example of the highly accomplished women who came from Saskatchewan. shane http://www.angelfire.com/art/cactussong ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 14:30:36 -0400 From: "Suze Cameron" Subject: Re: If you can't beat 'em - join 'em (NJC) On Tue, 07 Aug 2001 18:20:49 colin wrote: >You will burn i Hell for this, Sue. you wicked woman you! Colin, please to send me some spf 250 sunscreen, I have a feeling I'll be needing it when Marcel reads my post thisisajokethisisajokeIloveyouMarcel:-) Sue (ducking and running!!!) n.p. Raise a little Hell Get 250 color business cards for FREE! http://businesscards.lycos.com/vp/fastpath/ ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2001 #335 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?