From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2001 #318 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Sunday, July 29 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 318 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. Information on the 4th "Annual" New England JoniFest: http://www.jmdl.com/jfne2001.cfm ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Today's Articles: July 28 [les@jmdl.com] RE: Today's Articles: July 28 ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: appalled NJC [colin ] RE: VAIN promises on beauty jars ["Deb Messling" ] Re: appalled NJC [Catherine McKay ] Re: "Pun"ishment (NJC) [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: appalled NJC [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: Today's Articles: July 28 [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: VAIN promises on beauty jars [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Tiger Bones [Nuriel Tobias ] Re: appalled NJC [Reuben3rd@aol.com] Re: VAIN promises on beauty jars [Mags ] Re: appalled NJC [colin ] Re: appalled NJC [Randy Remote ] America meets Joni ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: appalled NJC [Catherine McKay ] Re: appalled NJC [colin ] Re: appalled NJC [colin ] RE: appalled NJC ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: appalled NJC [colin ] Exposing The Bitch & More! NJC [Whizzboom@aol.com] Re: appalled NJC [Reuben3rd@aol.com] Re: appalled NJC [Murphycopy@aol.com] and sometimes there'll be sorrow [Mags ] joni's stars ["shane mattison" ] Re: joni's stars ["hell" ] Re: expose the bitch! [jan gyn ] Re: joni's stars ["shane mattison" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 03:48:44 -0400 From: les@jmdl.com Subject: Today's Articles: July 28 On July 28 this article was published: 1966: "Rising Folksinger From Saskatoon Discusses Career" - Saskatoon StarPhoenix (Interview) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/docs/660728ssp.cfm - ------------------------ The JMDL Article Database has 615 titles. http://www.jmdl.com/articles ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 05:04:41 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Today's Articles: July 28 what a gem!!!!!!! joni referred to as ''MRS mitchell''!!!!! these articles are priceless. god bless you les and those that contributed! and has anybody heard "What Will You Give Me", the song that's mentioned in the interview????? wallyK - -----Mensaje original----- De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de les@jmdl.com Enviado el: Sabado, 28 de Julio de 2001 04:49 a.m. Para: joni@smoe.org Asunto: Today's Articles: July 28 On July 28 this article was published: 1966: "Rising Folksinger From Saskatoon Discusses Career" - Saskatoon StarPhoenix (Interview) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/docs/660728ssp.cfm - ------------------------ The JMDL Article Database has 615 titles. http://www.jmdl.com/articles ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 09:26:37 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: appalled NJC > I suspect that this would be extremely difficult, if > not impossible, the younger the person - if a child's > mind is still learning, if his/her brain is still > immature, then the abuse they suffered will most > likely cause them permanent damage and they may never > become "whole" again. Which isn't to say that we > should give up on them, but unfortunately we're all > looking for a magic pill, and it just doesn't work > that way. yes, that is the case. It is extrememly difficult to undo the damage and in usch cases where the damage is so severe the child/person is unable to empathise, it may never be undone. bw colin > Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca - -- bw colin BRO GC, 950i 940,864, 260, 890,Silver 830 and 270, Passap 6000 Duo80 colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 06:15:35 -0400 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: RE: VAIN promises on beauty jars The double meaning of the word "vain" never occurred to me (duh!) That's why I love this list; it helps me consider Joni's work in new ways. > Subject: VAIN promises on beauty jars - ----------------------------------- Deb Messling =^..^= - ----------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 07:11:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: appalled NJC - --- hell wrote: > > I have followed the Jamie Bulger case in some depth, > if only to try and > understand what would compel two 11-year-olds to > torture and kill a toddler. > I've found an extremely good write-up of the entire > case, including the > backgrounds of each of the boys (one of them had a > pretty disturbing > history) at this site: > > http://www.crimelibrary.com/classics3/bulger/ > Thanks, Hell - I also try to understand this kind of thing. It bothers me a lot. Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 08:12:42 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: "Pun"ishment (NJC) In a message dated 27/07/01 22:59:23 GMT Daylight Time, anima_rising@yahoo.ca writes: << > I won't torture you with the one that ends "drained > Wops keep falling on my > head" - or "here's that sick squid I owe you" - or > "you've got van aerial > disease"... > Oh c'mon, Azeem - finish what you started (or start what you finished?) Don't leave us hanging! _ >> Believe me, Wally and Catherine, these "jokes" are toxic! Anyway, once you've got the punchlines, it's probably more fun to make up the rest of them. Actually, I DON'T know the rest of the "sick squid" one! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 08:19:20 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: appalled NJC In a message dated 28/07/01 12:15:51 GMT Daylight Time, anima_rising@yahoo.ca writes: << I have followed the Jamie Bulger case in some depth, > if only to try and > understand what would compel two 11-year-olds to > torture and kill a toddler. > I've found an extremely good write-up of the entire > case, including the > backgrounds of each of the boys (one of them had a > pretty disturbing > history) at this site: > > http://www.crimelibrary.com/classics3/bulger/ > >> There is an excellent book on this subject too: "As If", by Blake Morrison. He was detailed to cover the trial of Venables and Thompson, and wrote a very thought-provoking book about it, highly recommended. Amongst many other distortions he highlights, he points out that even the victim's name was distorted by the press: his family called him James, whereas the diminutive "Jamie" was a tabloid invention, in its small way robbing that poor little boy of just one more piece of his dignity in an attempt to sentimentalise a story which was horrifying enough on its own merits. Azeem ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 09:06:37 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Today's Articles: July 28 << 1966: "Rising Folksinger From Saskatoon Discusses Career" - Saskatoon StarPhoenix (Interview) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/docs/660728ssp.cfm >> A great article, Les, and I especially enjoyed the rare pic of Joni and Chuck! Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 09:10:20 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: VAIN promises on beauty jars << It occurred to me that the use of "vain" in "Sweet bird" may have been a clever play on words by Joni,her using the word "vain" to convey 2 meanings at the same time. Am I correct? >> I don't know for sure, Relayer, but I'd be willing to bet that Joni knew EXACTLY what she was doing with her choice of this word. She admits to searching for the perfect word (like Hejira), has changed words when she finds a phrase that suits her better, etc. Example: look how many times she uses a word like "sorrow" to describe an emotion so much better than "sad" or "sadness" would do. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 08:47:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Tiger Bones do you think that tiger bones was the last time we'll ever hear joni playing the guitar? is that why she added it at the end of TTT - like a sad farewell to her magical fingers? nuriel _____________________________________________________________ Free email, web pages, news, entertainment, weather and MORE! Check out -------------------------------> http://wowmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 12:01:24 EDT From: Reuben3rd@aol.com Subject: Re: appalled NJC Don wrote: > In any case, I am hoping that the two boys in question > are never far from the sight of some mental health > care professional, public or private. Colin replied: >I doubt they will be. Imagine trying to make a life with new identities and >having to live with what they did as children, disturbed children. Just to clarify: Colin do you think that they should be released and left alone for ever and ever amen? They were children, disturbed children - and I bet they're young men, disturbed young men today. I don't think you get over something like this because they keep you on ice for a couple of years. Don't you think a little psyc. help would be a good idea now that they're able to throw stones again, and have been caged like animals for so long? I wonder if potentially you'd be worse after that... Reuben ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 12:25:02 -0400 From: Mags Subject: Re: VAIN promises on beauty jars SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > > > < EXACTLY what she was doing with her choice of this word. She admits to > searching for the perfect word (like Hejira), has changed words when she > finds a phrase that suits her better, etc. > > Example: look how many times she uses a word like "sorrow" to describe an > emotion so much better than "sad" or "sadness" would do.>> I have always loved Joni's use of the word sorrow. Rather than simply saying someone is sad, sorrow seems to imply so much more, perhaps incorporating grief and regret as well. When Joni uses the word sorrow, I get the feeling that she means something has really hurt her deeply, to the core. She adds to it by using a mournful intonation in her voice... " and sometimes there'll be sorrow" (from Little Green). In doing so, she shows us a pathway which leads us to the centre of those feelings. In addition, driven by the medium of her words, the images Joni paints give strength to a simple little phrase which helps to drive those underlying emotions. I know there are many examples...one that often stands out in my mind is at the end of Lessons in Survival... she end the song with: I will always love you she doesnt leave it at that...she shows us: Hands alike. Magnet and iron the souls. another is in The Sire of Sorrow.... something deeper than anger is so evident in these lines: Let me speak, let me spit out my bitterness (she leaves quite an impression by using the word spit ...spitting on someone is such an act of ...what...rage...disgust??) Why have you soured and curdled me? (taking us well beyond anger again) just a few thoughts on a scrambled saturday. Mags. np: Two Grey Rooms > > > - -- And this loving is a drawing close, a tuning in, an opening. Until one perfect moment; but how can it be expressed? A receiving, an enfolding as I cradle you in my arms. Within my heart, within my soul, You are my true love. --Lui Collins - --- _~O / /\_, ___/\ /_ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 18:06:23 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: appalled NJC > Just to clarify: Colin do you think that they should be released they have been released. > and left > alone for ever and ever amen? no > They were children, disturbed children - and I > bet they're young men, disturbed young men today. we have no way of knowing but not according to those that were responsible for their threapy etc. > > Don't you think a little psyc. help would be a good idea since my stance on therapy is well know, I think you should know the answer to that one-of course continued therapy will help. I am sure they are getting it too. They can't just be released and left to get on with it. besides they ahev been given new id's etc > now that they're > able to throw stones again, and have been caged like animals for so long? they were not caged like animals-they were not in a prison. This partly why they have been released so that they do not become brutalised. > I > wonder if potentially you'd be worse after that... all the correspondence so far on this subject shows very little faith in human beings. It seems that everyone is saying that once a bda thing has been done, that is it, the person who ddi is bad thru and thru and beyond hope. That is sad beyond words and also goes a long way to explaining why we live in the sort of society we live in. How awful that people find it so easy to judge and condemn others, even children, and just so sould destroying to have so little faith and hope and charity. > > > Reuben - -- bw colin BRO GC, 950i 940,864, 260, 890,Silver 830 and 270, Passap 6000 Duo80 colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 10:16:32 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: appalled NJC A few disjointed thoughts- I find if odd that no one discussing this has expressed any sympathy for the victim(s). They're dead. Pretty harsh penalty. Also, the bit about society and abuse creating these types of criminals is somewhat of a generalization, in danger of becoming coddling. Of course I am against abuse of children and recognise the damage it does. But there are plenty of examples of children with good upbringing that have turned out wrong. Sometimes people are just plain bad, and no amount of psychiatric evaluation or rehabilitation can change it. They get out and kill or rape again. These people need to be isolated from society. Conversely, there are many people who have suffered abuse in their early lives, and have gotten past it to live productive lives. Some of them are real saints, trying to do good in the world. One more thing. It seems that alot of these school shootings and violent behavior can be traced to 'behavior modification' type drugs, Ritalin, Prozac, etc. Considering that the pharmaceutical industry is the first or second largest industry, and considering their methods of kicking back money and perks to doctors for prescribing these often dangerous +/or unpredictable potions, maybe they should be put on trial, too. Then there's always alcohol, linked to something like 90% of violent crimes (in adults anyway). RR ps Yesterday I heard the mother of the convicted 14 year old on the radio saying "Just pray to God that you never find yourself going through what I'm going through". True enough, and quite possibly taken out of context, but what about what the victim's family is going through? Is this a clue that might lead to the self-centered attitude that this child was exposed to? colin wrote: > this should read 28 years. > > colin wrote: > > > I really do not undertsand the American legal system. > > A 14 year old was tried as an adult for a crime he committed as a 13 > > year old. The crime was murder and and appaling, dreadful crime murder > > is. However, it is also just so outrageoues that a child should be > > treated this way. He has been senteneced to 298 years in prison. It is > > no surprise that this child is black. How can a child be treated like an > > adult? Where is the justice? Human beings make me so ashamed sometimes. > > There is no way this piece of barbarity can be justified. a child is a > > child is a child. > > > > -- > > bw > > colin > > BRO GC, 950i 940,864, 260, 890,Silver 830 and 270, Passap 6000 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 12:04:50 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: America meets Joni This was on the leeshore list: from Dan Peek's website - http://danpeek.com Dan Peek of America has this 47 chapter narrative online that's very interesting and fun to read. This quote is from when the band was invited to Elliot Robert's house for the first time: - ------------------------- Looking again to our right was an amazing view of the swimming pool, the waterfall pouring into the deep end, the whole flagged by huge stones with redwood furniture scattered about like large tiddlywinks. The pool seemed suspended in space, with short glass walls bordering, allowing that awesome view full rein. The view was made even more amazing by the fact that a young, beautiful blonde woman lay full length on one of the loungers, sunning herself in the warm dry air. She was completely naked. This Lorelei figure turned her face up to us and squinted, saying with total innocence, "Hi, I'm Joni Mitchell, you must be AMERICA. David said to say he'll be a little late. You must be awfully hot and tired. The water's great. You should go for a swim." "Uh, see Miss Mitchell, we don't have our suits. You don't need them much where we just came from." Said Dewey. "Call me Joni. You don't need suits. In fact I've never seen anyone wear a suit in this pool." I'm sure at this point we all thought we had been slipped a mickey and were hallucinating all of this. But it was real. The fact that we'd been given the green light to skinny dip with Joni Mitchell however had no effect on our personal hang ups about nudity in public. The three of us immediately went inside and cut the legs off our levi's and went for a swim. The last thing I wanted to see was Naked Dewey or Naked Gerry and I know the feeling was mutual, even if it meant looking prudish. The whole nudity thing in this rarefied strata of Tinsel Town was completely alien to the three of us and I never got used to it. As far as I know we were the only people who swam suited. Geffen would have parties with fifty people all lounging around in the nude. There was good naked and there was bad naked. Naked Joni good. Naked Elton bad. There is just some information I don't want to have. " ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 15:41:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: appalled NJC - --- colin wrote: > all the correspondence so far on this subject shows > very little faith in human > beings. It seems that everyone is saying that once a > bda thing has been done, that is it, the person who > ddi is bad thru and thru and beyond hope. Not necessarily, but sometimes you can't afford to take the chance when there is a possibility of it happening again. I don't think they should be locked up for life, but I would be keeping a very close eye on them just the same. Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 22:22:12 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: appalled NJC Randy Remote wrote: > A few disjointed thoughts- > I find if odd that no one discussing this has expressed any > sympathy for the victim(s). because the victims weren't being discussed. I didn't think it necessry to state how appalled I felt about their fate. > They're dead. Pretty harsh penalty. > Also, the bit about society and abuse creating these types of > criminals is somewhat of a generalization, no it isn't but people like to think so. > in danger of becoming > coddling. Of course I am against abuse of children and recognise > the damage it does. I don't think you do and I don't think many people do. > But there are plenty of examples of children > with good upbringing that have turned out wrong. yes? Again, just a ploy used by those who refuse to accpet the obvious. > Sometimes > people are just plain bad, don't believe that. > and no amount of psychiatric evaluation > or rehabilitation can change it. that i think is true in cases of severe damage. > They get out and kill or rape again. > These people need to be isolated from society. I totally agree with that. Adults who commit crimes of child abuse, murder etc should NEVER be freed again. > > Conversely, there are many people who have suffered abuse in > their early lives, and have gotten past it to live productive lives. yes there are-I being one of them-but many many more end up dead, in lockled wards or in prison. > > > One more thing. It seems that alot of these school shootings > and violent behavior can be traced to 'behavior modification' > type drugs, Ritalin, Prozac, etc. Considering that the pharmaceutical > industry is the first or second largest industry, and considering their > methods of kicking back money and perks to doctors for > prescribing these often dangerous +/or unpredictable potions, > maybe they should be put on trial, too. too right! Pyschiatry and the drug companies have much to answer for. > > Then there's always alcohol, linked to something like 90% of violent > crimes (in adults anyway). yes tho alchol is often used as an excuse. men and women who sexually abuse often state they were 'drunk' and didn't know what they were doing. > > RR > ps Yesterday I heard the mother of the convicted 14 year old on > the radio saying "Just pray to God that you never find yourself > going through what I'm going through". I would think this statement includes the grief she feels at the death of the man. It also needs to be taken into account that she is probably in deep shock and unable to speak her thoughts as clearly as you like. Since we are not in her shoes,. we cannot judge or even beigin to imagine what she is feeling and going thru. It also needs to rememebred that her son was a 13 year old child when he did this awful thing and is still only a child. We have no way of knwoing whteher or not she is self centred tho people in pain usually are in just the same way as a person with tooh ache becomes tooth centred. However, there is no doubt that there was somnthing sevrely lacking in this boys upbringing. the reslut is very sad for everyone concerned. > True enough, and quite > possibly taken out of context, but what about what the victim's > family is going through? Is this a clue that might lead to the > self-centered attitude that this child was exposed to? > > colin wrote: > > > this should read 28 years. > > > > colin wrote: > > > > > I really do not undertsand the American legal system. > > > A 14 year old was tried as an adult for a crime he committed as a 13 > > > year old. The crime was murder and and appaling, dreadful crime murder > > > is. However, it is also just so outrageoues that a child should be > > > treated this way. He has been senteneced to 298 years in prison. It is > > > no surprise that this child is black. How can a child be treated like an > > > adult? Where is the justice? Human beings make me so ashamed sometimes. > > > There is no way this piece of barbarity can be justified. a child is a > > > child is a child. > > > > > > -- > > > bw > > > colin > > > BRO GC, 950i 940,864, 260, 890,Silver 830 and 270, Passap 6000 - -- bw colin BRO GC, 950i 940,864, 260, 890,Silver 830 and 270, Passap 6000 Duo80 colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 22:23:09 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: appalled NJC Catherine McKay wrote: > --- colin wrote: > > all the correspondence so far on this subject shows > > very little faith in human > > beings. It seems that everyone is saying that once a > > bda thing has been done, that is it, the person who > > ddi is bad thru and thru and beyond hope. > > Not necessarily, but sometimes you can't afford to > take the chance when there is a possibility of it > happening again. I agree in the case of adults. > I don't think they should be locked > up for life, but I would be keeping a very close eye > on them just the same. I am sure that is what is happening and think it ought be happening too. > Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca - -- bw colin BRO GC, 950i 940,864, 260, 890,Silver 830 and 270, Passap 6000 Duo80 colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 18:21:08 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: appalled NJC there's bad and then there's BAD!!!!! i don't have the answer for whether prisons are the right way to address crime. but torturing and killing a little child... that's not something that can be attributed simply to a troubled youth. there must something monstrously wrong with anyone that tortures and kills another person. maybe the killers cannot be understood by the common mind and they must be separated forever from the rest of the people they wounded so terribly. if they were really worthy of compassion they themselves would request never to be released. i guess that i can't analyze this case form a merely philosophical point of view. i'd better stop here. wallyK ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 00:28:57 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: appalled NJC you have to bear in mind that they were 10 year olds and the 'torture' as it has been described was simply the boys chucking stones at this poor child. they stoned him to death. Wicked yes. This is just not the same as an adult committing this dreadful crime. Wally Kairuz wrote: > there's bad and then there's BAD!!!!! i don't have the answer for whether > prisons are the right way to address crime. but torturing and killing a > little child... that's not something that can be attributed simply to a > troubled youth. there must something monstrously wrong with anyone that > tortures and kills another person. maybe the killers cannot be understood by > the common mind and they must be separated forever from the rest of the > people they wounded so terribly. if they were really worthy of compassion > they themselves would request never to be released. i guess that i can't > analyze this case form a merely philosophical point of view. i'd better stop > here. > wallyK - -- bw colin BRO GC, 950i 940,864, 260, 890,Silver 830 and 270, Passap 6000 Duo80 colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 19:22:34 EDT From: Whizzboom@aol.com Subject: Exposing The Bitch & More! NJC Jan pointed out "but this here JMDL list RULES when it comes to viciousness and bile marinated declamations ..." Well put..I couldn't have said it better. I'm reading all of the bile-marinated goodies after the fact, as I had chosen to ignore this thread when it began, and decided to check back in on it when it ran for several days. WOW. Certainly pumped some juice into an otherwise lazy Saturday afternoon. I had thought the 'expose' thread was about the badly behaved Bush child...guess my mind is operating half mast these days, I missed the mark by a few yards (unless the thread mutated). For any and all interested, the Paul Weller acoustic performance I attended the other night was so remarkably wonderful, I was moved to tears of joy at several points during the show. That man poured every ounce of soul he's got into his set...I'm still reeling. Sometimes it's those underdog shows we attend that turn out to be the most rewarding...I had little or no expectations for this, and am happy to report that Paul is alive and well, and actually sounds better than he ever has. Titles included: Out of the Sinking Headstart for Happiness Wild Wood All the Pictures on the Wall Above the Clouds Bitterness Rising Amongst Butterflies Clues Brand New Start Thats Entertainment Town Called Malice English Rose Love-Less He's the Keeper There's No Drinking... Science You Do Something To Me Does anyone have any Paul Weller live material to trade? Email me (privately - - yes, that's an open invitation, no worries of bile-marinated accusations and declarations here!). Cheers, Chris NP: Apt #21 - Bobbie Gentry ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 20:22:43 EDT From: Reuben3rd@aol.com Subject: Re: appalled NJC In a message dated 7/28/2001 12:59:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, colin@tantra-apso.com writes: How awful that people find it so easy to judge and condemn others, even children, and just so sould destroying to have so little faith and hope and charity. I agree with you on this point, Colin, but I also know that often people with emotional disturbances as children, that are then involved in overblown situations (like the media blitz in this case) don't just "get better". It takes a lot of work to get through the darkness. I think that you have to take into consideration what will be the best situation for both society in general, as well as the boys, when reintroducing them into society. Its not fair to us or them to launch them unannounced back into the pool. And that is just my opinion, of course. Reuben ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 20:55:04 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: appalled NJC In a message dated 7/28/01 6:25:16 PM, colin@tantra-apso.com writes: << the 'torture' as it has been described was simply the boys chucking stones at this poor child. >> Wasn't the story a little more complex than that, Colin? I thought the boys planned this murder, then went to a shopping mall looking for a victim, befriended the little boy, coaxed him away from his mother, took him to a remote area, and then carried out their planned homicide. I didn't follow this story closely, but I do seem to remember a premeditated aspect to it, which casts the murder in a different light than "simply the boys chucking stones at this poor child." And I think anyone would consider being stoned to death a form of torture, without the quotations. I am sure he screamed for mercy, like any victim of torture. My grasp of the facts in this case may be a bit fuzzy because I really try to avoid stories like this. Once upon a time, twenty or thirty years ago, this story would have remained in England, and the rest of us would have been blissfully unaware of it. But these days the media are all on alert for the next story they can sensationalize, the new scandal that can get their ratings up. And next thing you know, the story is constantly in your face. Anything to do with children and murder seems to sell very well, so we're fed a constant diet of that. Sure it's a very sad thing that Jon-Benet Ramsey was murdered in Colorado, but I don't want to hear any more about the case than the facts. And then I want move on. But the media likes to draw everyone in the world in to what would have once been a local story -- Did her mother do it? Or was it her father? Did they kill her together? Or was it her older brother? And what about those little-girl beauty pageants? In the end, we all end up thinking the world is going to hell because just as this story is growing stale, a fresh new horrific one pops up in Chipping Camden or Trenton or Sidney or wherever. Then we all get drawn in again, wring our hands, and wonder what's happening to our world, when the fact is that something awful happened in a faraway place, and our world is basically unchanged. It's not that I am immune from being drawn in to media sensationalism. I was glued to my TV for OJ's low-speed car chase and his trial. I was there for Princess Diana's funeral and all the tributes and commentary that followed. And you couldn't tear me away from the never-ending Clinton/Lewinsky story. But when it comes to children and murder, or grisly Jeffrey Dahmer-type stories, I'm sorry -- but I have to look away from the media frenzy. I don't know whether or not this makes me a bad citizen of the global village, but I think it's healthy. --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 22:36:47 -0400 From: Mags Subject: and sometimes there'll be sorrow Just found this in my drafts folder dated mid june...not sure why I never sent it..... thanks Brei for the inspiration to do so. *** I have taken up my brother Bob Muller's challenge by doing a little searching- around -Joni-lyrics- town for a word to focus on . The word I am most moved by is one of my all time favourites, sorrow. It is one thing to say someone is sad, or someone is hurting, someone is down, blue, having an off day, off year, off life... however, it is another thing altogether to use the word sorrow. Joni digs deep with this one. To hear the word sorrow is like finding long lost keys to a treasure. I think I can safely say that many people are much more comfortable around emotions like happiness or joy or feeling content...all those warm and fuzzy feelings ... however when we start pushing the emotional envelope, we wriggle and squirm in our seats when it comes to those emotions which linger, deep down inside us, and so often they go unspoken. Let's face it, when you are really sad and having a melt down, how many people are comfortable enough to allow you to just cry to your heart's content? In my experience, most people just walk away or else they can't deal with tears. They want to fix you, make it go away ... anything so that they will not have to deal with what your sorrow triggers inside them. Sadness and especially sorrow has a tendency to make everyone feel uncomfortable. To me, there is no finer word than sorrow to describe some of the images Joni conjures in her songs. A painting analogy might be considered ... using the word sorrow is like using VanGogh oil paints rather than brand x. There is just no comparison. The hues and tones give reign to so many feelings and experiences, the right touch to express heartfelt meaning, they are rich and deep and filled with meaning and can rock the listener to the core. You only have to cover the canvas once with their cad yellow to get what I mean. To me, the word sorrow is all encompassing when it comes to trying to describe the deepest of sad moment(s). Let's take a look at the list of songs I came up with when I entered the word sorrow in Les' search engine. Don't Interrupt The Sorrow The Sire Of Sorrow Marcie Little Green Answer Me, My Love Willy Tin Angel The Pirate of Penance Roses Blue For The Roses Conversation A Melody In Your Name np: At Last, Eva Cassidy, Time After Time *Brei and i extend our warmest thanks to our dear Dutch Uncle for treasures received* - -- - --------------------------------------------------------------------- _~O / /\_, ___/\ /_ - ----------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 21:09:05 -0600 From: "shane mattison" Subject: joni's stars for a lark, read joni's star chart (somehow the astrologers here got a fix on her details)... read your own star chart... in the column on the right, click for the kind of match you'd be for joni... i'm lucky 'cause i'm pisces... have fun and know in joni's words "it was only a dance..." just click below for your own trip to the stars... http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:Og8rIM6o7z4:www.adze.com/bios/htm/1943/1 1070001.html shane without a cane ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 16:10:56 +1200 From: "hell" Subject: Re: joni's stars Shane wrote: > for a lark, read joni's star chart (somehow the astrologers here got a fix on > her details)... > read your own star chart... > in the column on the right, click for the kind of match you'd be for joni... > i'm lucky 'cause i'm pisces... Pretty accurate on the whole, but I'm not sure about my own profile, which says "You might benefit from a weekly enema." Not in this lifetime!!! And just for a laugh, I had a look at what kind of match I'd be for Joni, and the following came out: "At heart, Helen is practically perfect" - (laughing my head off at this one!) "Joni prefers deep commitment, deep conversation and deep thoughts. If Joni can't tell it like it is, Joni prefers to keep quiet. It should be mentioned that Joni has quite a few secrets." "Helen could find Joni to be glamorous, charismatic and even hypnotic. This could be an ideal or fantasy relationship. It is important to note the difference between fantasies and unrealistic expectations. It is a big challenge, however Helen would be wise to take off the rose colored glasses and get another perspective on Joni. Joni could bring refined aesthetic tastes, original art and live music into the relationship. Helen can help Joni to trust first impressions and go with them. It would be good for Helen to cook soup and stews for Joni. This relationship will work better straight and sober. Also, you two need to harness the power of prayer." This is hilarious! But what about "Joni could bring refined aesthetic tastes, original art and live music into the relationship". Is that accurate, or what! I guess I could get a job as Joni's housekeeper, and cook her stews....but I won't be allowed to drink. Damn. Hell ____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Hell's Personal Photo Page: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/main/personal.htm Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://www.nbls.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 22:48:01 -0700 From: jan gyn Subject: Re: expose the bitch! >Debra Shea > >... that's all folks >(do I hear a collective "thank God!" ? :-) Not from me; I don't believe in God.... - -jan (running for cover) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 23:34:21 -0600 From: "shane mattison" Subject: Re: joni's stars <> naw... <> "she cooked good omelettes an stews...and i might have stayed on with her there, but my heart cried out for you..." too many enemas? i'll hire ya! thanx hell...i dun laffed real hard, you know, its only a dance, eh? shane and sober as a churchmouse... - ----- Original Message ----- From: "hell" To: "shane mattison" ; Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2001 10:10 PM Subject: Re: joni's stars > Shane wrote: > > > for a lark, read joni's star chart (somehow the astrologers here got a fix > on > > her details)... > > read your own star chart... > > in the column on the right, click for the kind of match you'd be for > joni... > > i'm lucky 'cause i'm pisces... > > Pretty accurate on the whole, but I'm not sure about my own profile, which > says "You might benefit from a weekly enema." Not in this lifetime!!! > > And just for a laugh, I had a look at what kind of match I'd be for Joni, > and the following came out: > > "At heart, Helen is practically perfect" - (laughing my head off at this > one!) > > "Joni prefers deep commitment, deep conversation and deep thoughts. If Joni > can't tell it like it is, Joni prefers to keep quiet. It should be mentioned > that Joni has quite a few secrets." > > "Helen could find Joni to be glamorous, charismatic and even hypnotic. This > could be an ideal or fantasy relationship. It is important to note the > difference between fantasies and unrealistic expectations. It is a big > challenge, however Helen would be wise to take off the rose colored glasses > and get another perspective on Joni. Joni could bring refined aesthetic > tastes, original art and live music into the relationship. Helen can help > Joni to trust first impressions and go with them. It would be good for Helen > to cook soup and stews for Joni. This relationship will work better straight > and sober. Also, you two need to harness the power of prayer." > > This is hilarious! But what about "Joni could bring refined aesthetic > tastes, original art and live music into the relationship". Is that > accurate, or what! I guess I could get a job as Joni's housekeeper, and > cook her stews....but I won't be allowed to drink. Damn. > > Hell > ____________________________ > "To have great poets, there must be > great audiences too." - Walt Whitman > > hell@ihug.co.nz > Hell's Personal Photo Page: > http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/main/personal.htm > > Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: > http://www.nbls.co.nz ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2001 #318 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?