From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2001 #317 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Saturday, July 28 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 317 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. Information on the 4th "Annual" New England JoniFest: http://www.jmdl.com/jfne2001.cfm ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- VAIN promises on beauty jars [Relayer211@aol.com] Re: appalled NJC [Relayer211@aol.com] Re: VAIN promises on beauty jars [colin ] Re: appalled NJC [Catherine McKay ] Re: expose the bitch! [dsk ] Re: appalled NJC ["hell" ] Re: Weather (NJC) ["hell" ] Re: Taming the Daughter - The Jenna Bush Story ["hell" ] Re: july 26!!!!!!!!!!! - Thanks to everyone (NJC) ["hell" ] Re: july 26!!!!!!!!!!! - Thanks to everyone (NJC) ["Kakki" ] Re: expose the bitch! [dsk ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 19:58:39 EDT From: Relayer211@aol.com Subject: VAIN promises on beauty jars I was thinking about "sweet bird",and I looked up the word '"Vain" in the dictionary. The first definition is "conceited, especially about one's appearence".the second definition is "having no value or signifigance,as in 'vain triumphs'." It occurred to me that the use of "vain" in "Sweet bird" may have been a clever play on words by Joni,her using the word "vain" to convey 2 meanings at the same time. Am I correct? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 20:08:06 EDT From: Relayer211@aol.com Subject: Re: appalled NJC In a message dated 7/27/01 7:54:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, colin@tantra-apso.com writes: << of course it is 'the system' as you call it. Actually, it is us, you and me and evryone else. Society. Empathy is something one has when one is brought up with love and respect. Sociaopath is a meaningless label used to make people feel better and take the blame away from society. Severely damaged people are unable to empathise. They get that way because they are damaged BY other people, adults. a lot of very educated sounding nonsense is spoken and written about these problems. the answer is really simple;children need to be loved and respected not just by their parents/family but by society as a whole. Society needs to get it's head out of it's arse and take responsibility for the world we live in and the world we offer our children. But it won't. It wants to be able to buy it's goods cheaply and doesn't give a toss that those goods are made by child slaves who are barely paid. Society wants to sleep soundly at night, with plugs in it's ears so as not to hear what might be going on next door. No one wants to think about what might be happeneing to little Johnny, doesn't wnat to wonder why there is blood in his stoools, or bruises on his body or why he beahves so oddly. No one gave a toss about the boys who killed James Bulger until they did what they did. And now they want them dead so they don't have to face their own guilt. Most people express horror at child abuse but as far as I can tell it is all talk and noises just made to make themselves feel better. The child abuse goes on under our noses and we turn the other way. Or we label disturbed children as having some disorder and fill them with drugs. So much easier than loving them. so much easier to believe they have some brain malfunction rather than to accept that something has gone seriously wrong in their upbringing and that the adults around them are responsible for it. Adults hide from painful truths, the children pay for it. Any child dare to bring it to their attention, and they are destroyed. It takes an adult to face their responsibilites and to learn and cahnge. trouble is most of us are children just pretending to be adults. The list is ample evidence of that. I don't mean that unkindly at all. The wars we have, the sniping, the acting out.......and we think we know! >> I agree with you.There's a lot of cruelty in this world, and in our hearts. Adults who you would think are mature and should no better-sometimes don't.and the children pay the price like you said...and yes I speak from experiance.but thank god I can talk about it with my therapist. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 01:23:41 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: VAIN promises on beauty jars I don't know if you are correxct. My take was that the promises on beauty jars are bullshit. Just like th ads for them still are! Have you seen what cost? Mind you of course it alos buys into peoples vanity-or lack of self esteeem. i am astonished that women are still reached out to in this belittling way yet they must fall for it because these companies are making a fortune. the sickest is that bloody company that has 'because you're worth it' byline. Yuk and a ...oh never mind .. you get the picture i am sure. Relayer211@aol.com wrote: > I was thinking about "sweet bird",and I looked up the word '"Vain" in > the dictionary. The first definition is "conceited, especially about one's > appearence".the second definition is "having no value or signifigance,as in > 'vain triumphs'." > > It occurred to me that the use of "vain" in "Sweet bird" may have been > a clever play on words by Joni,her using the word "vain" to convey 2 meanings > at the same time. Am I correct? - -- bw colin BRO GC, 950i 940,864, 260, 890,Silver 830 and 270, Passap 6000 Duo80 colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 21:04:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: appalled NJC - --- colin wrote: > > I'm not saying that "the system" is to blame for > these > > kinds of events. > > of course it is 'the system' as you call it. > Actually, it is us, you and > me and evryone else. Society. > > Empathy is something one has when one is brought up > with love and > respect. Sociaopath is a meaningless label used to > make people feel > better and take the blame away from society. > Severely damaged people are > unable to empathise. They get that way because they > are damaged BY other > people, adults. a lot of very educated sounding > nonsense is spoken and > written about these problems. the answer is really > simple;children need > to be loved and respected not just by their > parents/family but by > society as a whole. I have no doubt that the boys who killed Jamie must have been extremely abused themselves, otherwise they would not have been able to commit such a horrible crime - and this wasn't a crime of passion, it was premeditated and they had plenty of time to back out of it, so we're not even talking about ordinary children going too far. As far as I'm aware, none of this was gone into in the media (at least not here) and I expect this was because of the age of the children involved - although we were told their names and their ages, so *not* to talk about the fact that they were abused makes no sense at all to me unless, as you say, this was because "society" is shocked when this kind of thing happens and would prefer to see this type of criminal as monsters. And monsters they are, but most likely were not born - unless we're talking about some type of brain damage, kind of unlikely given there were two boys from two different families. And their parents were likely abused and so on; and likely these two boys had tortured animals before moving onto a human child. Some people can undergo traumatic events and may become hardened and unfeeling - but, in a situation such as a war, where they must become this way in order to simply survive, once the traumatic event is over, some people can return to "normal" and can feel and emphathize again. I suspect that this would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, the younger the person - if a child's mind is still learning, if his/her brain is still immature, then the abuse they suffered will most likely cause them permanent damage and they may never become "whole" again. Which isn't to say that we should give up on them, but unfortunately we're all looking for a magic pill, and it just doesn't work that way. Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 23:40:13 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: expose the bitch! Excuse me, Thom Byrd, but is there some point you're trying to make here by posting a part of a message I sent to the list? There's nothing to expose. Everything I've said has been visible to everyone. If you think I'm a bitch because I refuse to continue receiving insulting, sneering, hate-filled messages from someone who I've told many times over several years to stop emailing me privately, and yet the abusive behavior continues, and will only stop once it's made public (I hope), well, then... that's your choice. Debra Shea Thom Byrd wrote: > I don't want to hear any bellyaching from you about me violating the "no > posting > private email" rule. You use that rule just to hide your nasty comments > behind. > So... no more. You've been forewarned. > > Debra Shea > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 16:45:48 +1200 From: "hell" Subject: Re: appalled NJC Catherine wrote: > I have no doubt that the boys who killed Jamie must > have been extremely abused themselves, otherwise they > would not have been able to commit such a horrible > crime - and this wasn't a crime of passion, it was > premeditated and they had plenty of time to back out > of it, so we're not even talking about ordinary > children going too far. As far as I'm aware, none of > this was gone into in the media (at least not here) > and I expect this was because of the age of the > children involved - although we were told their names > and their ages, so *not* to talk about the fact that > they were abused makes no sense at all to me unless, > as you say, this was because "society" is shocked when > this kind of thing happens and would prefer to see > this type of criminal as monsters. And monsters they > are, but most likely were not born - unless we're > talking about some type of brain damage, kind of > unlikely given there were two boys from two different > families. And their parents were likely abused and so > on; and likely these two boys had tortured animals > before moving onto a human child. I have followed the Jamie Bulger case in some depth, if only to try and understand what would compel two 11-year-olds to torture and kill a toddler. I've found an extremely good write-up of the entire case, including the backgrounds of each of the boys (one of them had a pretty disturbing history) at this site: http://www.crimelibrary.com/classics3/bulger/ The Crime Library site has fascinating articles on all manner of crimes throughout history, eg. John Wayne Gacy, Dennis Nilsen, Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer, etc. It's not really for the squeamish - they've included crime photos in a lot of the articles, even photographs of Jack the Ripper's murder victims! But the stories are very well-researched, and if you have an interest in this sort of thing then I can highly recommend the site. They also have a "daily update" section, which has links to recent events. Hell - not disturbed herself, just fascinated in the psychology behind these people, and now realising she should have followed her "dream" of becoming a forensic pathologist, instead of a boring systems analyst, despite the 13 years of study required! ____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Hell's Personal Photo Page: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/main/personal.htm Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://www.nbls.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 16:50:36 +1200 From: "hell" Subject: Re: Weather (NJC) Azeem wrote: > Ah New Zealand, how I'd love to go again! I spent about a week there (prior > to flying over to Sydney for my brother's wedding), driving around the North > Island a bit, and it truly is a beautiful country. Rotorua is an > extraordinary place - Hell didn't mention the smell!! I loved Napier too, a > seaside town full of amazing Art Deco buildings. I hope to get there for > longer next time. Yes, Rotorua does smell like rotten eggs, due the the sulphur from the geothermal activity. It just adds to the ambience! Napier is one of my favourite cities, I've been there a few times on holiday, and it is beautiful. The buildings are predominantly art-deco - there are special tours of the city to show off some of the more spectacular buildings. The reason there are so many is that Napier was hit by a massive earthquake in (about) 1932, and most of the central city was demolished. Since art-deco was the "in" architectural style of the time, that's the style most of the new buildings were built in. Hell ____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Hell's Personal Photo Page: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/main/personal.htm Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://www.nbls.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 16:51:13 +1200 From: "hell" Subject: Re: Taming the Daughter - The Jenna Bush Story Bill wrote: > Ok, it's been a while but all this > talk about first daughters has > inspired this parody... Thanks, I needed a good laugh. This was hilarious! Hell ____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Hell's Personal Photo Page: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/main/personal.htm Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://www.nbls.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 17:08:06 +1200 From: "hell" Subject: Re: july 26!!!!!!!!!!! - Thanks to everyone (NJC) Alison wrote: > crikey! happy fucking birthday hell! let's get pissed! > everybody scull! try not to spew! don't get in a > prang! > and by god, use the "dreaded lurgy" excuse tomorrow! > (ok, i don't know what any of that means, but i > visited that slang website kerry pointed out! thanks > kerry!) Allow me to translate: Crikey = Gosh! Let's get pissed = Let's get very drunk and fall over a lot Everybody skull = Everybody drink really, really, really fast Try not to spew = Try not to vomit Don't get in a prang = Don't drink and drive, ie. don't have a car accident Dreaded lurgy = Catch-all phrase meaning "sick", ie. cold or flu etc. Thanks to everybody who sent me birthday wishes. I'd reply to everyone personally but it would take me forever (gosh, I'm just SOOOO popular)! A couple of things: the reason everyone's emails kept bouncing back was because our beloved birthday fairy was doing too much flittering and flapping of his wings, and inadvertently put my address as hell@ihug.com.nz instead of hell@ihug.co.nz. He will be reprimanded privately, although I promise to be gentle. I didn't drink any Fosters (I'm not that fond of that particular Australian beer, although I do have a weakness for Crown Lager). I did however, drink quite a lot of NZ beer, particularly Shakespeare Draught and Monteiths Golden. Probably a little too much Golden last night, given the amount of water I had to drink at 8am this morning, and the profound lack of money and cigarettes in my bag upon waking again at midday! It was indeed Mick Jaggers birthday on the same day as me, but he's been lying about his age. He's not 238, he's 239 (personally I think he'll do anything to avoid hitting that big 240). Hell ____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Hell's Personal Photo Page: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/main/personal.htm Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://www.nbls.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 01:32:50 EDT From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: expose the bitch! (md-2) In a message dated 7/27/01 8:43:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time, dsk11@bellatlantic.net writes: << I refuse to continue receiving insulting, sneering, hate-filled messages from someone who I've told many times over several years to stop emailing me privately, and yet the abusive behavior continues, and will only stop once it's made public >> You want it public, glad to oblige. Ms Shea: You send people insulting ad hominem attacks at legitimate views (just as legitimate as yours) and some one responds to the insults and name calling directly and in the same tone as you dish out and this is how you characterize it. Im printing this on the list as you wish. Sending a copy directly to you (in seeming violation of your edict but customary in civil society to insure the person being addressed is provided disclosure) even though you have said "Dont send email to me". Also Just to let everyone know that the one I sent yesterday was is just as surreal and ridiculous and just as "mean" as anything in the past she claims was sent. The fact is you send a bunch of crap to me and then get weenie if I respond. Grow up. The solution, for you, clearly, dont read my posts. Ignore them. Dont comment on them and I will do the same with yours. Now move on. please. thank you. marcel deste. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 00:49:21 -0700 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: need a joni suggestion... Make sure to tuen him on to David lahm's two CD's with joni in mind. Otherwise I vote for For The Roses and Hejira for different reasons. Paz on 7/27/01 7:20 AM, Alison E at alisone4@yahoo.com wrote: > i have a friend who is a big jazz fan, and we recently > had this discussion about "Chelsea Morning". > He said this: > >>> I've been re-listening to Joni Mitchell's > "chelsea". New >>> favorite part is the >>> triangle-rhythm each time under the "don't it > always >>> seem to go, that you don't >>> know what you got til it's gone" refrain--listen > for >>> the great subtle rhythm >>> next time. I love that someone took such care to >>> play something so subtle, yet >>> so cool. Makes you happy to be alive! > (SNIP) >>> but most of it [Joni's music] is too sad for me. > > so now, i'm trying to come up with the best album to > buy him to show him that first part of his statement > is right on, the second part helplessly uninformed ;-) > he's a big jazz fan, plays jazz piano, so i'm thinking > DJRD. > any other suggestions? > alison e. in nyc > Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 21:42:42 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: july 26!!!!!!!!!!! - Thanks to everyone (NJC) Happy slightly belated B-day to Susan and Hell, my fellow lionesses! Sounds like you had a great time and you should REALLY keep the party going the rest of the weekend . > Probably a little too much Golden last night, given the amount of > water I had to drink at 8am this morning, and the profound lack of money and > cigarettes in my bag upon waking again at midday! Oh Hell, I HATE it when that happens!! ;-D Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 00:55:43 -0700 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: july 26!!!!!!!!!!! - Thanks to everyone (NJC) Thanks Gawd soemone knew what this poor woman in NYC was blithering about. It figures it would be someone half way round the world. Altho that is disturbing in a whole nother lite. Continued Happy Birthday for at least a week. Paz on 7/27/01 10:08 PM, hell at hell@ihug.co.nz wrote: > Alison wrote: > >> crikey! happy fucking birthday hell! let's get pissed! >> everybody scull! try not to spew! don't get in a >> prang! >> and by god, use the "dreaded lurgy" excuse tomorrow! >> (ok, i don't know what any of that means, but i >> visited that slang website kerry pointed out! thanks >> kerry!) > > Allow me to translate: > > Crikey = Gosh! > Let's get pissed = Let's get very drunk and fall over a lot > Everybody skull = Everybody drink really, really, really fast > Try not to spew = Try not to vomit > Don't get in a prang = Don't drink and drive, ie. don't have a car accident > Dreaded lurgy = Catch-all phrase meaning "sick", ie. cold or flu etc. > > Thanks to everybody who sent me birthday wishes. I'd reply to everyone > personally but it would take me forever (gosh, I'm just SOOOO popular)! > > A couple of things: the reason everyone's emails kept bouncing back was > because our beloved birthday fairy was doing too much flittering and > flapping of his wings, and inadvertently put my address as hell@ihug.com.nz > instead of hell@ihug.co.nz. He will be reprimanded privately, although I > promise to be gentle. > > I didn't drink any Fosters (I'm not that fond of that particular Australian > beer, although I do have a weakness for Crown Lager). I did however, drink > quite a lot of NZ beer, particularly Shakespeare Draught and Monteiths > Golden. Probably a little too much Golden last night, given the amount of > water I had to drink at 8am this morning, and the profound lack of money and > cigarettes in my bag upon waking again at midday! > > It was indeed Mick Jaggers birthday on the same day as me, but he's been > lying about his age. He's not 238, he's 239 (personally I think he'll do > anything to avoid hitting that big 240). > > Hell > ____________________________ > "To have great poets, there must be > great audiences too." - Walt Whitman > > hell@ihug.co.nz > Hell's Personal Photo Page: > http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/main/personal.htm > > Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: > http://www.nbls.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 02:06:15 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: july 26!!!!!!!!!!! - Thanks to everyone (NJC) << the profound lack of money and cigarettes in my bag upon waking again at midday >> Didn't Joni say that? I think it was on Blue. I could be wrong. XO, --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 02:20:27 EDT From: Coyote4Joni@aol.com Subject: Re: Weather (NJC) In a message dated 7/25/01 8:46:23 AM Pacific Daylight Time, sybilskelton@hotmail.com writes: Sybil Wrote: << I also hear that about the "dry" heat in places like Arizona and Nevada. Well, it's a dry heat inside my oven too, but look what it does to a chicken. >> To which the woefully behind Coyote responds: I love this!! One of my best friends, a Minnesota native, was transferred to Scottsdale recently (in the dead of summer). I called to ask how things were going and she replied, "If one more person says, 'but Jori it's a dry heat,' I swear I am gonna scream-- So is a fucking oven and I don't put my head in that either.." No regrets, Coyote Rick Casa Alegre Hollywood, California ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 00:19:38 -0700 From: jan gyn Subject: Re: expose the bitch! (md-2) (snip) > just as "mean" as anything in the past she claims was sent. The fact is you >send a bunch of crap to me and then get weenie if I respond. Grow up. The >solution, for you, clearly, dont read my posts. Ignore them. Dont comment on >them and I will do the same with yours. Now move on. please. thank you. >marcel deste. I belong to many a lively list, i.e., Miles Davis, X-Files, Pyromaniacs Anonymous, etc., but this here JMDL list RULES when it comes to viciousness and bile marinated declamations (of which I'm TOTALLY uninnocent). This place is hypnotizing, somehow. - -jan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 03:07:00 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: expose the bitch! MDESTE1@aol.com wrote: > You want it public, glad to oblige. > Ms Shea: You send people insulting ad hominem attacks at legitimate views > (just as legitimate as yours) and some one responds to the insults and name > calling directly and in the same tone as you dish out and this is how you > characterize it. Good grief, this is ridiculous. You're saying I send insulting private emails to you and "people"??? I don't. All my comments about discussions on the list are sent to the list, not to people privately. I've never sent anyone a message similar to the one from you that the list saw yesterday, which gives just a hint of what I've received privately. > Im printing this on the list as you wish. Sending a copy > directly to you (in seeming violation of your edict but customary in civil > society to insure the person being addressed is provided disclosure) even > though you have said "Dont send email to me". I asked that you not send email privately to me. Receiving a copy of what you send to the list is not receiving "private" email. > Also Just to let everyone > know that the one I sent yesterday was is just as surreal and ridiculous and > just as "mean" as anything in the past she claims was sent. Whether you find your emails offensive or not isn't the issue. I do not wish to receive them as private emails. That is the only issue here. It's really very simple. > The fact is you > send a bunch of crap to me and then get weenie if I respond. I do not send you any private messages at all. You're getting so many things wrong here, I wonder if you're talking to the right person. > Grow up. The > solution, for you, clearly, dont read my posts. Ignore them. Your posts are very easy to ignore when they are on the list. > Dont comment on them I don't, except I did tell you on list that I liked what you'd posted about the Emmylou Harris concert you saw. > and I will do the same with yours. You can comment on what I send to the list however you want to comment, as long as you send it TO THE LIST. > Now move on. Yep, will do. You too. Debra Shea ... that's all folks (do I hear a collective "thank God!" ? :-) ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2001 #317 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?