From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2001 #305 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Saturday, July 21 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 305 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. Information on the 4th "Annual" New England JoniFest: http://www.jmdl.com/jfne2001.cfm ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Mr. Gates (NJC) ["Kakki" ] RE: jonis speaking voice ["Deb Messling" ] Re: Mr. Gates (NJC) [Scott Price ] Re: jonis speaking voice [Relayer211@aol.com] RE: jonis speaking voice ["Deb Messling" ] Re: jonis speaking voice [Mags ] Re: Subject: Re: Okay now I'm REALLY steamed ... (md) (njc, no... really NJC) [Randy Remote ] Steam, Soul & Bigots [Leslie Mixon ] Re: Joni on new benefit CD [MGVal@aol.com] New interview [Les Irvin ] Re: Steam, Soul & Bigots NJC [MGVal@aol.com] =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Feliz_D=EDa_del_Amigo?= ["Edgardo Viegas" ] Re: blackness (now NJC) now PC ["hell" ] OH MY GOD!!!!! Captain For Dark Mornings [Lazyasz@aol.com] Re: NJC - Racism, Letterman, DiFranco ["Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: Mr. Gates (NJC) Thanks Don for making it a bit clearer for me. Like math, when it comes to "operating systems" I tend to fuzz out, so trying to keep up with the legal, factual and technical issues of his particular case have been too taxing for me. When I first became a paralegal law I worked on mostly antitrust cases for the first 5 years. Since then I've worked in almost every other conceivable area of law, but that one remains my favorite. It is very esoteric and usually involves lots of interesting and complex facts and questions. I'd say that Gates does need to be watched, although in many ways he has a lot of current law behind him, and I'm afraid that will help him keep the case strung out in court for a long time. The way our system is now, it may only leave the option of another strong competitor coming forth to knock him off his game a bit. It eventually happened with IBM. The best situation now would be for Gates to willingly to modify his plans for world domination! Kakki, off for a few days and apologizing for using so much bandwidth recently! Good weekend to everyone. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 18:37:08 -0400 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: RE: jonis speaking voice Oh yes! If you have a lot of those live recordings, you'll notice her speaking voice has deepened over the years just as her singing voice has, but it's the same beautiful lilt and theatricality. Plus, her sentence structure is so interesting and her stories are amazing! Stephen Holden of the NY Times referred to her "slightly stilted, almost biblical manner of speaking," which is overstating it a bit, but I see what he means. Of course, the Canadian accent is so cute! (Do Canadians think the New Jersey accent is cute? I wonder). > do other people feel the same way about her speaking voice??? - ----------------------------------- Deb Messling =^..^= - ----------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 15:44:17 -0700 From: Scott Price Subject: Re: Mr. Gates (NJC) At 02:06 PM 7/20/01 -0700, Don Rowe wrote: >It just seems to me the fact >that fundamental control of 95% of the world's >computers resting in the hands of a single company, >and dependent on that company's flagship product, is >inherently dangerous Hi Don, I'm not sure where you got that figure...95 seems a bit high to me. In any event, if one is concerned about a scenario where a company, namely Microsoft, could "pull the plug," and begin some chaos, one should consider that most of the world's computerized infrastructures (government, private corporations, utility companies, etc.) use a mainframe that is operating with something *other* than a Microsoft product. The dominance of Microsoft applications in the marketplace has caused other OS (Operating System) companies to open up their own programs so that they work in tandem with Microsoft products, but if MS didn't develop damn fine products in the first place they wouldn't be where they are today. As a daily user and administrator of various Windows OS's and applications like Word, Excel, and Access, I am *continually* amazed at how productive these programs are. Let's give credit where credit is due. Microsoft has changed the world for the better. We now have a more universal standard...that works. It wasn't many years ago when the transfer of information between simple word processing files was horribly muddled. Now you can import any number of different formats into your own application...seamlessly...incredibly. If you feel strongly about it, it is possible to eschew Microsoft products in your own home or office. There *are* working alternatives available...but IMO they're not nearly as good as MS. Scott ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 18:49:55 EDT From: Relayer211@aol.com Subject: Re: jonis speaking voice In a message dated 7/20/01 6:47:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, messling@enter.net writes: << her stories are amazing! >> I noticed in the JM companion, that she altered the details of the same stories in various interviews. Did anyone else notice this. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 19:26:46 -0400 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: RE: jonis speaking voice Altered her stories? But of course!! I attribute that to middle-aged memory lapses in some cases and artistic license in others. I know we're all supposed to believe that "Joni Mitchell Never Lies," and LIES is a nasty, strong word for what I'm talking about. Reading that Hadju book about Farina et al. reminded me that strong-minded, ambitious, creative people are often very conscious of the stories they weave and the image they project. I'm not sure that Joni will let the literal truth stand in the way of a good story! Maybe her story conveys some deeper truth, and may maybe it just supports the image that Joni as a businesswoman is selling to the public at a particular point in time. Years from now, when the authoritative biographies are written, maybe it will all get sorted out. In the meantime, I still like her stories. > I noticed in the JM companion, that she altered the details of > the same > stories in various interviews. Did anyone else notice this. - ----------------------------------- Deb Messling =^..^= - ----------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 19:46:29 -0400 From: Mags Subject: Re: jonis speaking voice Deb Messling wrote: > > > < Jersey accent is cute? I wonder).>> > > and now me: > first of all, this Canadian loves Joni's voice... (hey she doesnt have an > accent!! ;) and yes yes yesssssssss I sure do loooove that joisey boy...errr I mean his accent heehee.(which btw is not a joisey accent after all...) and yea I have heard that joisey thang goin' on when I was down there and I do like it a lot! love, Mags tgif xoxox ... - -- And this loving is a drawing close, a tuning in, an opening. Until one perfect moment; but how can it be expressed? A receiving, an enfolding as I cradle you in my arms. Within my heart, within my soul, You are my true love. --Lui Collins - --- _~O / /\_, ___/\ /_ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 17:04:35 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Subject: Re: Okay now I'm REALLY steamed ... (md) (njc, no... really NJC) Kakki wrote: > Do we really want to > continue to give up our all of our discriminating judgment for the sake of > some stupid political party? I'd rather reserve some of my brains intact > than to give them over wholesale to help out some political hack or another. > I'd rather engage in discussions that enlighten me when it comes to opposing > viewpoints, so that there is an exchange of something substantive and real, > rather than seeing who wins the point by intimidation and obscuring the > issue. I agree. Examples are rampant of turning a blind eye to one's own party's misdeeds, while screaming 'foul' when the other side does something. > As for the "evil" millionaires running the world, we need to narrow that > down a bit and identify which particular millionaires are running the world > before we can come to any productive approach towards resolving whatever > evil they are inflicting on us, don't we? By lumping all millionaires > together as collectively running the world, we lump in Joni Mitchell and > most of our favorite artists, groundbreaking medical researchers, I didn't say all millionares were collectively running the world, I said millionares were running things-there is a difference. It may be billionares or, more accurately multinational corporations-the point is that big money is telling our politicians what to do, and they are doing it-be they Dem or Rep. A democracy is where the people are represented by the leaders they elect. We don't have that. We do get to vote for A or B, they make promises and pretend to be on our side, but once elected, they represent the interests of big money. The people pay the bill and do the work. It's a moot point WHICH moneyed interests are pulling the strings, although there are certainly organizations keeping track of such things. The problem is a system that allows the rich to rule and manipulate the system for their own benefit. We need to take money out of the equation; it should be just as illegal to bribe a politician who makes the rules as it is to bribe a judge who meets the rules out. But it's not, it's encouraged, it happens every day, it's business as usual. They call it lobbying, campaign contributions, kickbacks, whatever. Bush and Cheney are big oil. Gore is, too, for that matter. The beat goes on... RR ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 17:18:35 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Joni on new benefit CD This item appeared in the 7/14/01 Billboard. I'm trying to get more info regarding Joni's contribution. Valley Entertainment will release 'The Great Stupa Project', a two-CD set benefiting a Tibetan Buddhist center in Colorado. Artists will include Billboard Century Award honoree for 1995 Joni Mitchell, Sting, Delbert McClinton, Leonard Cohen, and Graham Nash. Paz, aren't you affiliated with Valley? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 19:12:53 -0700 From: Leslie Mixon Subject: Steam, Soul & Bigots As a newcomer to the Central Valley of California, I've been steaming lately about Congressman Condit. In fact, I'm surprised that Condit has not been a topic of discussion on this list. "The congressman offered no apologies..." I've been out of the performing arena for about a year and a half now; last year due to illness and subsequently since we moved and left our former band. It was very meaningful that Julius included me in his "Soul" list. My humble "thank you" Sir. I would add Nina Simone, Ma Rainey, Johnny Heartsman, Joe Williams, Nat King Cole, Bessie Smith and Esther Phillips to your list, but as you said, it's impossible to add all those known and unknown. As a Jewish woman growing up in America, I experienced bigotry first-hand. Living in New York City (my grandparents emigrated to Ellis Island), many of our neighbors had numbers tattooed on their arms. Ironically, my own father was not much different than Archie Bunker, spewing expletives and derogatory remarks towards non-Jewish people; talk about hypocrisy. Just recently I was in a second-hand store and the clerk said to a customer, "Why are you trying to Jew me down in price?" Last week a co-worker referred to her boss as a Jewish American Prince. Even though I realize this is a display of ignorance on "their" part, it still hurts. It's still painful that a person would be thought of as "lesser than" because of their ethnicity or heritage. I live in a community now that has a large population of farm workers who grow and pick the food that is delivered to our tables - why are they commonly treated and referred to as "lesser than." Prejudice is something I can never rationalize in my own mind. Several years ago Joni was intereviewed by "Musician" (?) magazine and said the greatest compliment she's received is that her music is "...raceless and genderless..." Leslie ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 22:13:44 EDT From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni on new benefit CD >Valley Entertainment will release 'The Great Stupa Project',> a two-CD set benefiting a Tibetan Buddhist center in Colorado.> Artists will include Billboard Century Award honoree for 1995> Joni Mitchell, Sting, Delbert McClinton, Leonard Cohen, and > Graham Nash. > > Paz, aren't you affiliated with Valley? No! I'm affliliated with Valley Entertainment! At least as long as the company is still in operation. (:-D MG - currently A/R Accountant ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 20:19:18 -0600 From: Les Irvin Subject: New interview Joniphiles - There's a very interesting interview just added to the JMDL site that contains lots of rare facts about Joni's early days. Check it out - http://www.jmdl.com/articles/docs/7702zz.cfm Thanks to Philip in Ireland for the submission. Les NP- Clem Snide "The Curse of Great Beauty" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 22:18:44 EDT From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: Steam, Soul & Bigots NJC Leslie Mixon wrote: >>As a newcomer to the Central Valley of California, I've been steaming lately about Congressman Condit. In fact, I'm surprised that Condit has not been a topic of discussion on this list. "The congressman offered no apologies..." Ditto, Leslie. Although Condit is not in my district, it still makes my blood boil. I saw a great headline to an editorial saying that "his responsibilities are greater than his rights." I know that self preservation is a huge force but to do so at the life of another human being just amazes me to no end. MG ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 23:52:42 -0300 From: "Edgardo Viegas" Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Feliz_D=EDa_del_Amigo?= Feliz dma del amigo para todos los miembros del JMDL EDGARDO VIEGAS:) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 23:14:14 -0400 From: Mags Subject: Re: Steam, Soul & Bigots Leslie Mixon wrote: > > < first-hand. Living in New York City (my grandparents emigrated to Ellis > Island), many of our neighbors had numbers tattooed on their arms. > Ironically, my own father was not much different than Archie Bunker, > spewing expletives and derogatory remarks towards non-Jewish people; > talk about hypocrisy. Just recently I was in a second-hand store and the > clerk said to a customer, "Why are you trying to Jew me down in price?" > Last week a co-worker referred to her boss as a Jewish American Prince. > Even though I realize this is a display of ignorance on "their" part, it > still hurts. It's still painful that a person would be thought of as > "lesser than" because of their ethnicity or heritage. >> Leslie, thank you for bringing your thoughts to the foreground. There are so many of these deeply embedded little 'expressions' which do slam into souls and cut deep, these little things that are so very much a "natural" part of our language, words and phrases that are deemed acceptable. With Brei as my best friend and partner, I am even more aware, painfully so, of the existing prejudice against the Jewish community. We have had countless talks about it, shed many tears together and I am shocked at the stories he has shared...of things he has heard, been called, assumptions made about him because he is Jewish....things he lives with in his every day existence. It sickens me, hurts me even more than ever. Ive always felt outrage at this (*&(^, always. It stings me deep and I come to his defense all the time, whenever the opportunity arises. It is important to, for me. I am amazed at the reactions to my Chai that Brei gave me as soon as people find out what it is, what it symbolizes , what it represents. I choose to wear mine on the outside and I think that is because I dare to, out of respect for Brei. This is how I choose to effect change in my life, I listen, learn, hear, speak out, and educate whenever I can. I cringe while I remember and face and address the racist atmosphere I grew up in. And no it is not something I am proud of...but what I am proud of is the fact that I am willing to take a good hard look at myself and make sure that I will not carry on in the footsteps of those who tried to teach me otherwise. Our histories (for we need to know that there is certainly more than 'one' history) bear witness to the existence of "otherness" and therein lies some twisted need to categorize everyone and put them in some neat and tidy white bread box. The gnarly roots of racism and prejudice lie deep within us and I do not understand why they exist. All I know is that I am aware and open to being challenged to think and rethink all of these issues. I am so grateful for the insight put forth this week by everyone involved. Let us keep talking . It is a long road with many a winding turn. > > > <> me too, this whole discussion around otherness is so very true. I learned something so meaningful while taking a Post Colonial Lit course at York a few years ago by my wonderful Professor Mukhurjee who opened my white girl eyes and helped me to feel things from her point of view. She taught us that it is very important to "see" colour and race and class and gender....to be blind to those things is hurtful...what she encouraged us to do was to acknowledge difference and honour and celebrate it. respectfully, Mags np: silence > - -- And this loving is a drawing close, a tuning in, an opening. Until one perfect moment; but how can it be expressed? A receiving, an enfolding as I cradle you in my arms. Within my heart, within my soul, You are my true love. --Lui Collins - --- _~O / /\_, ___/\ /_ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 15:38:06 +1200 From: "hell" Subject: Re: blackness (now NJC) now PC Alison wrote: > not to jump in anyone's shit, individually, here. but > "politically correct" is my biggest pet peeve. > it might be the PC term of the moment to you, but it > might very possibly be ownership and recognition of > identity to someone else. its something real, and very > meaningful to some. First off, I agree with everything you've said, and perhaps my choice of expression, ie. PC, was the wrong one. Maybe I shouldn't have said anything at all, but since I'm visiting your fair country in a short while, I would like to be clear on what is and is not an offensive term. Not in terms of labelling anyone by their colour, but more by their culture, which I would think is important to most people (it is to me), and something I'm always interested in discussing when I meet new people/friends. Personally I don't give a damn whether someone is black, white, yellow, red, green or purple, as long as they treat me with respect, and know that they will receive the same in kind. I've never judged people by their appearances - I know only too well the hurt that comes from people seeing only the exterior. I'm sure there are many people I meet that only see me as the "fat woman" and don't bother to get to know me as a person. Their loss. I could rant and rave on this subject all day, and probably get more emotional about it - as it is I've had to wait several hours before posting this much. Best I stop now, and just reiterate that I'm not interested in labelling anyone, but like it or not, we are all different, and come from different backgrounds, and I'd like to be able to discuss that, without causing offense with the careless use of a misplaced word. Hell ____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Hell's Personal Photo Page: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/main/personal.htm Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://www.nbls.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 00:45:39 EDT From: Lazyasz@aol.com Subject: OH MY GOD!!!!! Captain For Dark Mornings I have been interested in Laura Nyro, knowing that she's a contemporary for Joni Mitchell and that Joni has spoken highly of her, especially of New York Tendaberry. Well I was browsing on Amazon and I come across the page for Tendaberry. I see the song title CFDM and I'm thinking, oh this sounds like a Joni title. So I listen to the sample and it sounds intriguing and haunting. I then go to audiogalaxy.com and download the song. OH MY GOD!!!!! This song is soo gooood!!!!! And then I scan the article page at jmdl.com where I come upon a child of god-jk- but seriously a transcript of a radio show Joni did in England in 1983. She brings with her 12 songs she likes and they are played and commenting on them. Well what do I find but this: AP: The next choice is from Laura Nyro, desperately underplayed on the radio in this country. Really is. JM: Another great artist. AP: But why great to you? What is it that particularly appeals about her work? JM: Well, when I was first starting out, there weren't that many women that were writing, and I was pitted in the press in various combinations. You know, they try to put you into groups and schools, like to put you in some kind of neat filing system. Of all of the filing systems that I went into, she was one of the rare ones whose company I enjoyed. She's a great artist, you know, a complete original. You see a lot of her influence coming down now through the pop charts. Rickie Lee Jones has borrowed a lot from her, but somehow or other the way she put it together was all her own. AP: And this is "Captain for a Dark Morning." (Plays "Captain for a Dark Morning.") AP: The haunting voice of Laura Nyro. She really is a superb vocalist, isn't she? JM: Oh, yeah. She's got so much dynamic range and sense of theatre and composition. She's a great one. Let's just say I have sooo much more respect for Joni now. Conceding that she is not the queen of all female singer-songwriters!!! I'm going to get Tendaberry as soon as I can. What of Nyro's should I get after that? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 01:04:15 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: NJC - Racism, Letterman, DiFranco The song Bob Murphy was describing was a DeFranco song that I singled out in my glowing review of her appearance here in America's heartland. She mentions "loop-de-loop streets" and "a Berlin Wall running down Main Street, separating East from West". The song has smart-alec humor that a Letterman audience would understand. I said then that the song contains a keenly-observed and skillfully-written lyric..... And we all know how terribly difficult it is to impress a Joni fan with a lyric! Go Ani! Lama ps- Isn't it really, really wierd that people get criticised and excised for the _very_ things I value in an artist???? Like people are just dying for another interview with Vince McMahon, or more watermelon-smashing by Gallagher??? We JMDLers are pretty far out of the mainstream, I guess. Hey, can we paint a smile on the Mona Lisa so Letterman fans will "enjoy" her more? on 7/19/01 9:53 AM, Murphycopy@aol.com at Murphycopy@aol.com wrote: > Ani DiFranco was scheduled to appear on "Late Night with David Letterman" > tonight. She had planned to perform "Subdivision," a song about rascism that > begins, "White people are so scared of black people, they bulldoze out to the > country." Producers at "Late Night" tried to convince her to sing a more > "up-beat" song. When she refused, her segment was cancelled. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 01:13:09 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: NJC, Re: Joni line [njc]/ blackness Amen. What _he_ said. Well done Mark. I'm re-doubling my efforts and re-affirming my beliefs. Mark in Seattle said, for example..... >>>>I have completely eradicated some of the > idiotic things I grew up hearing about from people who were supposed > to be wiser than me. I can only say that I do my best to try & see > people for what they are underneath the 'joke' that God has played on > us by making us all appear to be different. >>>> Swallowing hard in Northern Kentucky, Lama ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2001 #305 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?