From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2001 #301 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Thursday, July 19 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 301 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. Information on the 4th "Annual" New England JoniFest: http://www.jmdl.com/jfne2001.cfm ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Shake the Willy [Gordon Mackie ] RE: Suicidio njc ["Wally Kairuz" ] RE: Shake the Willy njc ["Wally Kairuz" ] NJC suicide/black/books - long ["Mike Pritchard" ] Re: july 18!!!!!!!!!!! NJC ["Lori R. Fye" ] Okay now I'm REALLY steamed ... (njc, no ... really NJC) [Don Rowe ] Re: joni line [sjc]/ blackness ["Michael Paz" ] saskatchewan soul, like the geese ["shane mattison" ] Re: Great advice from BB King + ethnicity NJC ["colin" ] Re: blackness, now NJC [cvickery@danielrealty.com] Re: NJC suicide/black/books - long ["colin" ] Mimi (NJC) [Steve Dulson ] NJC - Dorothy Parker correction [Murphycopy@aol.com] NJC - Racism, Letterman, DiFranco [Murphycopy@aol.com] The Dating of Summer Lawns [BachelorNumero2@aol.com] Re: soul? NJC ["J. R. Mills" ] Re: soul? NJC [Jan Lumholdt ] Re: The Dating of Summer Lawns [KJHSF@aol.com] Re: joni line [sjc]/ blackness ["Michael Paz" ] RE: Shake the Willy ["Donna J. Binkley" ] Re: blackness, now NJC ["Michael Paz" ] Re: books ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: joni line [sjc]/ blackness ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: soul? NJC ["colin" ] Re: The Dating of Summer Lawns [Jerry Notaro ] Re: joni line [sjc]/ blackness ["colin" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 09:14:54 +0100 From: Gordon Mackie Subject: Shake the Willy The 'ruby in a black man's ear' which is correctly attributed to Shakepeare does not have a literal meaning in the play Othello. It actually refers to something rather different...an erect penis. It was an allusion used often by Willy the Shake (which seems to have a different conotation now). Actually, this is my vain attempt to be humourous and I just made it up. Please someone find this vaguely amusing...I am trying to lighten up..honest...honest... Anna Karenina ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 05:17:21 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Suicidio njc suiciiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiidioooooooo!! in questi fieri momenti! i love callas more than anything in the world! thanks for the tip, mackie. and now i'll play callas, souliotis, cerquetti and marton, suicidio on repeat, all night long. wallyK - -----Mensaje original----- De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de Gordon Mackie Enviado el: Miircoles, 18 de Julio de 2001 10:33 a.m. Para: joni@smoe.org Asunto: Suicidio Wally/Les/Joni(not)/anyone who is vaguely interested.....suicidio... >>No not the Ponchielli aria...(though one of my favourites when >>Callas sings it...as a great example of the range of her >>voice)..but the academic study. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 05:39:24 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Shake the Willy njc anna, you've been very naughty as of late. go meet that train now! wallyK - -----Mensaje original----- De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de Gordon Mackie Enviado el: Jueves, 19 de Julio de 2001 05:15 a.m. Para: joni@smoe.org Asunto: Shake the Willy The 'ruby in a black man's ear' which is correctly attributed to Shakepeare does not have a literal meaning in the play Othello. It actually refers to something rather different...an erect penis. It was an allusion used often by Willy the Shake (which seems to have a different conotation now). Actually, this is my vain attempt to be humourous and I just made it up. Please someone find this vaguely amusing...I am trying to lighten up..honest...honest... Anna Karenina ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 12:09:00 +0200 From: "Mike Pritchard" Subject: NJC suicide/black/books - long Durkheim and Suicide - Durkheim is no fun to read and I recommend anyone who is interested in reading his work to start with an introductory 'reader'. Colin wrote >I first tried when I was 7 by jumping out of a 3rd floor window and getting up without a scratch. Again at 16, just got very sick. At 20 I put >myself in a 9 day coma. Boy I was really pissed when I woke up. My final attempt was the same year. I escaped from where i was incarcerated >in the dead of night, travelled a 100 miles to the sea. It was mid winter, very cold and very dark. I walked along a high bridge and threw myself >into the sea. I went SPLAT!! right into the mud-the tide was out. I gave up then and thought I'd stick this life out. Colin, have you read Dorothy Parker's poem "You might as well live"? It seems to tie in with your glorious failures to top yourself. I'm 2000 miles away from my bookshelf so I can't quote it to you. Brenda wrote >There is a great book titled "Black Image in the White Mind" by Robert Entman which I highly recommend to Americans of all colors. You could also try "White" by Richard Dyer, a writer on film studies based at the U of Warwick, England. He looks at the representation of white within the contexts of Christianity, race, and colonialism. His thesis (very briefly) is that white needs black in order to be white, and only has a positive 'value' in contrast (literally) with 'devalued' black, which ties in with the "norm/other paradigm" Julius mentions. Purity, hygiene, superiority and cinematic lighting of black actors all appear in this book. It's fascinating. Sherelle wrote >Being referred to as black(s) doesn't offend me personally unless you put the word "the" in front of it. I'm not sure why that bothers me, but it >does." This isn't just a problem of the word 'black/Black', it's a linguistic thing about 'nominalization', that is, making a noun (a thing) from another lexical category, in this case an adjective (a characteristic of a thing). For example, would you rather hear people say "You are drunk" or "You are a drunk", the first is possibly temporary, while the second suggests you have a drinking problem and a reputation for it. In the first case you may be 'just visiting', but once you have been named into a category you have checked in for good. Same goes if you use the word 'cripple', for example. Try it with other adjectives. Books- how about a 'favourite book' thread for all of us who don't have cars. Or maybe a 'book I'm currently reading' thread. I'll start the ball rolling with "The Third Policeman" by Flann O'Brien, and "A THOUSAND YEARS OF NONLINEAR HISTORY" by Manuel De Landa. 'Penblwydd Hapus' to Lori Mike in rainy Barcelona ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 07:13:05 -0700 (PDT) From: "Lori R. Fye" Subject: Re: july 18!!!!!!!!!!! NJC Again, thank you to everyone who sent me birthday wishes! It was a wonderful day that ended with my love, Mary, sitting me down to a fabulous lasagna dinner that she created from scratch -- including sauce from our garden tomatoes! Dessert was cling peach pie and Ben & Jerry's vanilla! Mmmm ... I hope everyone had as nice a day as I did! Love y'all, Lori in DC ~ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 07:24:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: Okay now I'm REALLY steamed ... (njc, no ... really NJC) Upon arriving home after a harrowing commute through the St. Louis horizontal rain ... I find an envelope in the mail bearing the logo of the Internal Revenue Service and a diagonal stamp in blood red ink that reads: "Important Information Concerning Your Tax Return" Now I live partially under a rock, sure, but even I know this isn't an Audit. They're announcing that I'm going to receive the highest possible rebate ($600 whole bucks, no less), under W's recently decreed Death Sentence for Social Security, Medicare and management of the National Debt. I also know that there's only a 33 1/3% chance that this is, in fact, the case -- since 2 out of 3 of these missives were fired off errantly due to an IRS software glitch. Now this is all a slow-simmer kind of annoyance at this point. The real boil comes when I open the stupid thing ... And discover that it's really a campaign ad. Written in the most pandering, obsequious marketing language imaginable ... mercilessly flogging W's supposed "munificent, magnanimous benefecence in his visionary stewardship ... blah-blah-blah". Phooey! But then again, what did I expect? Don Rowe ===== Visit me anytime at http://www.mp3.com/donrowe Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 07:45:59 -0700 From: "J. R. Mills" Subject: Re: Shake the Willy I find this hilarious...an absolute panic! You had me going for a moment there. lol! Anna Karenina indeed. Rotfl! That "HEjira@aol.com" person may well have made their move too soon...we're lively now, aren't we? I love this list. - -Julius > The 'ruby in a black man's ear' which is correctly attributed to > Shakepeare does not have a literal meaning in the play Othello. It > actually refers to something rather different...an erect penis. It > was an allusion used often by Willy the Shake (which seems to have a > different conotation now). Actually, this is my vain attempt to be > humourous and I just made it up. Please someone find this vaguely > amusing...I am trying to lighten up..honest...honest... > > Anna Karenina ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 09:15:24 -0500 From: "Michael Paz" Subject: Re: joni line [sjc]/ blackness Julius- I am SO weary of this topic! The only thing I am REALLY uncomfortable being called is white (even though momma was as white as they come on the outside). I have always been lumped with the coloureds or darkies. As I think I have expressed many times before on this culturally diverse list is that *I* can hang in just about any hood 'cept the white mans. And that doesn't mean I think all white people are prejudiced against us. But when it comes right down to it I am usually on the defensive when I am amongst white people. How many times have I been the situation groovin on some music somewhere and some white guy calls me _________ (insert YOUR favorite derogatory name here), only to be corrected by some other white guy who informs the first that I am "high yella" or "injun" or "..." Lately here at work one of the guys has taken to calling me "brown factor". It is just the latest in a very long line of names I have been called throughout my life. For the most part at this point they just roll or bounce right off of me, but deep down YES it still does hurt. I find this level of ignorance still very prevelant here in the deep south. They always seem to wanna push the envelope just as far as they can. Ultimately I continue to worry for my children who have also felt the hate from some kid a school who was raised by morons, that people who are different from you, should be made fun of or singled out in a negative way. Recently I had the chance to work with the Black Enteretainment Network here in New Orleans and while I would love to tell you of ALL that happened on this gig, I think it better to be silent about it for now (too many pending issues still). I will tell you, however, that for the first time in my life I felt a real racial undercurrent directed at me (as well as most of the other local people, mostly whites) from a predominantly black "core" crew. I am trying to believe that it was because "they" work together alot and that all of us New Orleans folk are "outsiders". But there was some real feelings that were not good there. The comedians, dancers, and other talent on the show were the exact opposite of all this. With them I felt part of the group and warm with. I had a phone call from alot of them after I left the crew telling me how much they missed me on the crew and that things were really different since I left. I am blessed to have so many friends from so many backgrounds. Eveeryday I see walls that come down and love spreading it's wings. I believe that indeed "change gonna come", but for now I find prejudice even within myself. Even though it is born of a defense mechanism within me, I am ashamed of that. One thing I am sure of though, the bigot white man is outnumbered by all of the darktown society throughout the world (with people like Joni being in *THIS* number). I pray I do not offend anyone with my honest feelings here for it is not my intention. I only choose to share this with you guys so you can see the depth of hurt and confusion that hate causes people. It is so tragic that *we* have to classify ourselves as any group other than mere brothers, one and all. As one, Michael NP-Love On A Saturday Night-Jack Neilson (the demo version) Julius wrote: > *I* take no offense to being referred to as "Black," Wally, but Paz might. > ;-) However, I generally capitalize the term. I have issues with "colored" > and "negro" though...but that's just me. I not sure what you're asking with > regard to the term "African-American." A euphemism for what? If a Black > person is Canadian they would probably be an African-Canadian. I believe > most Jamaicans are Black. One would probably refer to European-Jamaicans > for differentiation, when necessary. > > I just read Sherelle's post on this thread and am amazed at the > synchronicity of our views on Joni having soul. Thanks for your thoughts, > Sherelle. Very well stated. > > - -Julius ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 11:40:35 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Great advice from BB King + ethnicity NJC There's an interview with BB King in today's Guardian, which is well worth reading (you can find it at http://www.guardianunlimited.co.uk/arts/story/0,3604,523827,00.html); it includes a wonderful quote (courtesy of Bukka White) which would have fitted beautifully into that humorous list of blues prerequisites someone posted a while ago: "He told me that if you want to be a good blues singer, people are going to be down on you, so dress like you're going to the bank to borrow money." What a man! I've been fascinated by the discussion about ethnicity and nomenclature. The aspect that particularly interests me personally is of people of mixed ethnic origin, of which I'm one. Over the years people have tended to jump to conclusions about "where I'm from", and there's hardly ever a place on forms which ask about ethnic origin for "mixed race" - I've always had to be "other"! That's finally changing, I'm glad to say. The question "where are you from?" always bugs me, and not only because I was born and brought up in London, and am half English. There are hundreds of thousands of people of Asian or partly Asian origin who have lived here all their lives, and maybe their parents too, and yet we still get quizzed as if we're just off the boat. It's hardly ever meant as a racial dig (although that does happen), but is indicative of not really thinking about it - it's just plain lazy. I am very happy to discuss ethnic origins, I just like people to think about what they're asking. Usually my response is "London!" If I may introduce a note of levity, this talk brings to mind a song title by the Bonzo Dog Band: "Can Blue Men Sing The Whites?" Azeem in rainy London NP: Supposed to be the cricket (be kind you Aussies...), but of course rain and bad light have stopped play. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 17:03:07 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) From: "colin" Subject: Re: joni line [sjc]/ blackness Not being black or even mixed race, i don;t feel i ahev much difficulty understanding what you just wrote. i don't think many gay people would. Algthough in some ways different, I think our experience is pretty much as you describe. When i was a child and living briefly here in the UK and longer in the Australian outback, having a Spanish mother was a reason to be singkled out and being treated differently. things are different now-no one ever aks about my ethnic background. However, the gay thing is still there of course and the reason we are on the 'outisde' and I think always will be. I am reminded of Ellen telling Oprah, in an episode of Ellen, of Ellen's experience and Oprah saying that she of course understood, being a black woman etc. I found this both amusing and warming as in my experience in the past equaiting the struggle of gay people with the struggle of people of colour has resulted in anger and hate emanating form the people fo colour. It seemed that the comparison was not welcomed regardless of how appropriate it is. At the basis of all such prejudice is fear and lack of self esteem. Both of these things require the person to have an 'enemy' or someone to feel better than rather than to actually to do the work necessary to change. Whatever ethnic group, gender, sexuality, or whatever you are, there is always someone who will hate you for it. the trick is to love yourself regardless. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 10:08:02 -0600 From: "shane mattison" Subject: saskatchewan soul, like the geese thankyou sherelle, julius, brenda and you others for your very thoughtful posts... i get my list deep in the night; i don't know why i get it so much later than some...maybe the order in which we joined? i'm glad the direction of this topic has gone towards the quality of soul in joni mitchell... thankyou for putting into words this quality...you mention it has to do with individuality and originality... in the edmonton folk fest in the nineties, on a lovely clear prairie night, the most memorable song joni sang (in my mind), Borderline includes: Every bristling shaft of pride Church or nation Team or tribe Every notion we subscribe to Is just a borderline Good or bad, we think we know; As if thinking makes it so! All convictions grow along the borderline Every income, every age, Every fashion-plated rage, Every measure, every gauge Creates a borderline Every stone thrown through glass, Every mean-streets-kick ass, Every swan caught on the grass Will draw a borderline... (from Turbulent Indigo) julius raised the question, is there really a canadian- american black bond - maybe its anecdotal, especially when you here a stupid remark like that made by prime minister chretien (not his first, and not his last)...and sherelle, you asked for some thoughts on this topic... i'm not an expert, i can only share a few anecdotes...like lincoln alexander, who i knew fairly well, a descendent of the underground railroad, and the first black member of parliament, who has been since then lieutenant- governor (official representative of our 'Head of State, Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II for the province of Ontario)..."Linc" as he was known by his friends, knew more of the real history, and yes, his father was a 'red cap' on the CPR (Canadian Pacific Railroad), as were many blacks...was it hard for them to find other work? probably...and was the culture any better than that south of the border? probably less overtly racist, though economic opportunity not too easy...some blacks were ontario residents, some ended up in halifax where they created a community of sorts, sometimes excluded on certain 'imperial' sports teams...yes canada was less violent, but sometimes had a 'british empire' snobbery, so your comment julius about finding any port was bang on...of course now in canada, economic opportunity for minorities is excellent... we are a far-flung country of 5 major regions, each with their own flavour, who have had to be therefore more of a cultural mosaic, and therefore with a far less dominant 'majority' than in the U.S....and so there are patterns of migration and borderlessness that have been a part of our history... joni mitchell, though, is exceptionally borderless...the prairie vastness, the migrating geese, originally no black population to speak of (with a few interesting exceptions, like a few black cowboys who drove cattle north with others from places like texas and oklahoma)...and she like my sask cousins wanted with all their souls to initially get away from 'boring maidstone' where all she could do for fun was to watch the train roll by...saskatoon too teetolling and 'provincial'...so she went borderless from early on, a migrator like the geese, flying south to sophistication and excitement and opportunity...she has read thomas merton, and therefore felt the thrill of his borderless vision too, as well as his (for he was a big migrant too) interest in the african american community (and a special friendship with martin luther king and his wife coretta)...because their 'story' is our story...as my dad would always quote "we are all part and parcel of what we have met"... joni had and has guts galore...and her vision has been borderless... shane ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 17:09:08 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) From: "colin" Subject: Re: NJC suicide/black/books - long Colin, have you read Dorothy Parker's poem "You might as well live"? It seems to tie in with your glorious failures to top yourself. I'm 2000 miles away from my bookshelf so I can't quote it to you. No I haven't read it nor have I heard of Dorothy parker except in relation to a song. Who was she? My post was humorous, at leats my version of humour. It was true tho and just so you know, I find life grand now and hope to experience a lot more of it. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 17:14:37 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) From: "colin" Subject: Re: Great advice from BB King + ethnicity NJC The question "where are you from?" always bugs me it is a quesion I often ask people, regardless of their skin tone,. It fascinates me. I think because when I am asked the question, I have no idea how to answer. When one has lived in 5 different countries, and 30 some houses, where on earth do you decide you come from? In some ways that is bad but in others it is good-I don't have an idea about my cuklture(whatever that is) that makes me feel it is superior to others, i have no nationalistic or patriotic feelings. I am perpetually the 'foreignor' which has its good points and bad points. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 12:10:21 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC suicide/black/books - long In a message dated 7/19/01 5:15:24 AM, ink08@hotmail.com writes: << Colin, have you read Dorothy Parker's poem "You might as well live"? >> Risumi, by Dorothy Parker Razors pain you; Rivers are damp; Acids stain you; And drugs cause cramp. Guns aren't lawful; Nooses give; Gas smells awful; You might as well live. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 17:21:32 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) From: "colin" Subject: soul? NJC I often here the term soul and usually in the context of black artists have it and white ones don't. It has come up in this discusion about Joni and her black fans, it being said that Joni, unlike other white artists, has soul. I have no idea what you all mean by this. Are we saying that to have soul means that the person is authentic in their feeling? that their work comes from a genuine place within them and that most white people's art is superficial? That cannot be what you all mean because that is racist to say the least. Sp please explain what you mean by the term 'soul' when it comes to music/art. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 11:11:46 -0500 From: cvickery@danielrealty.com Subject: Re: blackness, now NJC Michael - My one campaign promise..... I've always sworn that when/if i'm elected God that I'll make everyone a delicious cafe au lait color so that we'll have to find some new reasons to hate each other. This racial thing is getting really tiresome. And while I say this somewhat tongue in cheek (I mean, I'm not really qualified to be God, I don't suppose), and while I have nothing to complain about directly (since you can't look much more WASP than me), know that I've watched sooo many friends struggle with all of the race issues that stubbornly still cling here in the South and that I'd love to be part of the answer. As such, I teach my child to love people's hearts and their minds and not their skin or their appearance, and I teach her to appreciate the entire spectrum of creation, not just the parts that she can see in her mirror. I suppose it's human nature to exalt ourselves. It's just too bad that the other side of that coin is too often that we belittle those that are "other." Maybe my OTHER hero, Dr. Suess, covers that topic best in his story about the Sneeches. Anyhow..... Thanks for talking about it. Cindy < I pray I do not offend anyone with my honest feelings here for it is not my intention. I only choose to share this with you guys so you can see the depth of hurt and confusion that hate causes people. It is so tragic that *we* have to classify ourselves as any group other than mere brothers, one and all. As one, Michael>> Julius wrote: > *I* take no offense to being referred to as "Black," Wally, but Paz might. > ;-) However, I generally capitalize the term. I have issues with "colored" > and "negro" though...but that's just me. I not sure what you're asking with > regard to the term "African-American." A euphemism for what? If a Black > person is Canadian they would probably be an African-Canadian. I believe > most Jamaicans are Black. One would probably refer to European-Jamaicans > for differentiation, when necessary. > > I just read Sherelle's post on this thread and am amazed at the > synchronicity of our views on Joni having soul. Thanks for your thoughts, > Sherelle. Very well stated. > > - -Julius ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 17:25:28 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) From: "colin" Subject: Re: NJC suicide/black/books - long - -------Original Message------- From: Murphycopy@aol.com Date: 19 July 2001 17:15:52 To: ink08@hotmail.com; joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: NJC suicide/black/books - long In a message dated 7/19/01 5:15:24 AM, ink08@hotmail.com writes: << Colin, have you read Dorothy Parker's poem "You might as well live"? >> Risumi, by Dorothy Parker Razors pain you; Rivers are damp; Acids stain you; And drugs cause cramp. Guns aren't lawful; Nooses give; Gas smells awful; You might as well live. Thank you! Quite amusing. I know nothing of Ms Parker but would assume that she had her dark times hence her writing this funny poem. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 09:19:17 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Mimi (NJC) Just a quick note - I'm off work (and thus away from a computer, mostly) this week. Thanks to Julius, Deb and Catherine for posting the sad news about Mimi, and the word about Hajdu's book. It *is* good. I will have more to write when I've had a chance to think/ absorb. Here is the announcement from the Baez list: from Nancy Lutzlow (the Joan Baez Office) It is with much sadness that I tell you that Mimi Farina has lost her long, courageous battle with cancer. Mimi died on July 18, 2001, at her home in Mill Valley, California, surrounded and supported by the love of those closest to her. Mimi was an amazing woman who was a joy and an inspiration to so many people. An accomplished musician, loyal fans have enjoyed her music since the early 1960s, and her 25 years of work with Bread & Roses has deservedly earned her accolades and admiration. Mimi was also a daughter, a sister, an aunt, a cousin, a niece, a colleague, a dear friend, and a loving partner. Please keep all of those who loved her in your thoughts and prayers during this difficult time. (Donations in honor of Mimi can be made to Bread & Roses - www.breadandroses.org) Rest in peace, Mimi. - -- ######################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://www.tinkersown.com "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://www.scdh.org "The Living Tradition Concert Series" http://www.thelivingtradition.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 12:20:37 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: NJC - Dorothy Parker correction In a message dated 7/19/01 11:16:41 AM, Murphycopy@aol.com writes: << Risumi, by Dorothy Parker >> The title is "Resume," but the accent marks I put in the original post were turned into the letter "i" in transit. --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 12:53:22 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: NJC - Racism, Letterman, DiFranco Ani DiFranco was scheduled to appear on "Late Night with David Letterman" tonight. She had planned to perform "Subdivision," a song about rascism that begins, "White people are so scared of black people, they bulldoze out to the country." Producers at "Late Night" tried to convince her to sing a more "up-beat" song. When she refused, her segment was cancelled. You can read the article at http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A17763-2001Jul18.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 12:59:51 EDT From: BachelorNumero2@aol.com Subject: The Dating of Summer Lawns Just an observation, I was listening to "Hissing" last night on the headphones (I hadn't listened to it in awhile) and it recoccurred to me as to how "dated" the playing sounded..........I remember hearing the cd for the first time after listening to C&S a thousand times and thinking, "C&S doesn't sound half this dated"........The dating actually works to "Hissing's" benefit, it adds that 70's "Love Boat", "Charlie's Angels'" --esque Domestic familiarity, which reminds listeners of those lazy days of their childhood/teenage/adult years..........Especially "Edith And the Kingpin" which magically transports you to a little disco on the bad side of town, circa mid-70's......... Maybe I'm alone, BUT, everytime I hear "Edith and the Kingpin", I think of those Pam Grier blaxploitation films of the 70's......"Foxy Brown", "Coffy", "Friday Foster", "Sheeba, Baby".............I'm telling you............Those films have the same plot lines...........Lots of drugs, pimps, hookers, sex, violence, AND they all take place during the same time period........Just an observation. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 09:57:03 -0700 From: "J. R. Mills" Subject: Re: soul? NJC colin: My dictionary defines "soul" in the context we're discussing it as: "a strong positive feeling (as of intense sensitivity and emotional fervor) conveyed esp. by African-American music and performance." But I hasten to point out that other ethnicities are not precluded at all from soul, and several examples have been posed in this thread of non-Black performers who have this quality. Here's a very incomplete list of some musicians/performers who have soul, in my humble opinion: Carly Simon, James Taylor, Handel, Patsy Cline, Marcia Ball, Susan Tedeschi, Toni Childs, Diana Krall, Ravi Shankar, Eva Cassidy, Dave Wakeling, Alison Einerson, Ricki Lee Jones, Victor Johnson, Tuck Andress, David Bowie, Neil Young, Marcel Marceau, Madonna, Cat Stevens, Lyle Lovett, Cass Elliott, Claudia San Soucie, Janis Joplin, Jim Croce, Patti Smith, Paul Simon, Bonni Raitt, J.S. Bach, Eddie Vedder, Roger Waters, Ashara Stansfield, Annie Lennox, Joan Baez, John Lennon, Kate Bennett, Jerry Garcia, Leslie Mixon, Eric Clapton, Dr. John, Peter Gabriel, Jaco Pastorius, Tracy Thorn and Ben Watt (Everything But the Girl), Cher, Meryl Streep, Carlos Santana, Eric Clapton....and there are many, many more. Get the picture? In my mind it's not an "either have it or you don't" thing. It can be learned or acquired, but be prepared to bleed. - -Julius ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 19:23:37 -0700 From: Jan Lumholdt Subject: Re: soul? NJC > I often here the term soul and usually in the context of black artists have > it and white ones don't. It has come up in this discusion about Joni and her > black fans, it being said that Joni, unlike other white artists, has soul. > > I have no idea what you all mean by this. Are we saying that to have soul > means that the person is authentic in their feeling? that their work comes > from a genuine place within them and that most white people's art is > superficial? That cannot be what you all mean because that is racist to say > the least. Sp please explain what you mean by the term 'soul' when it comes > to music/art. > bw > colin Hello Colin and the rest of you on the case of solving the soul/skin-colour question, I won't try to explain the term soul, but here are some reasonbaly recent "whites" that I think have it (JM not included - she's in the "clear", right?): Claude Debussy Willie Nelson Frank Sinatra Astor Piazolla Astrud & Joao Gilberto & Antonio Carlos Jobim Bill Evans (the piano one) Bryan Ferry Donald Fagen Bernard Herrmann Ennio Morricone Nino Rota Michel Legrand Ryuichi Sakamoto Joe Zawinul Burt Bacharach Thomas Dolby (yep!) Bjvrk Django Reinhardt Kurt Weill & Lotte Lenya George Gershwin Irving Berlin Cole Porter Vince Guaraldi (who wrote the "Peanuts" music) For what it's worth, those names came from the top of my head in two minutes. You might not agree on (or know of?) all of them, but give them credit for their variety of origin. If we looked a little futher, I'm sure we'd even find a soulful Fin - or a soulful Swede somewhere. Isn't this a wonder- - and soulful - world? Jan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 13:29:11 EDT From: KJHSF@aol.com Subject: Re: The Dating of Summer Lawns Very interesting observations! I've felt that the music was intended to sound this way for the very same reasons. What amazes me is that the period pieces, Edith and also the title tune, sound so much like my own memories of childhood. My Mom listened to Herb Alpert a lot and I have vivid memories of playing in the sprinkler on the lawn in the late afternoon sunlight while this music was playing. When I hear those muted horns on Hissing (The song) I am completely reminded of Herb Alpert, and childhood and summertime. Just another way that Joni has painted with words and music and the accurate colors of the way she chose the music to sound. Ken from SF ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 12:30:35 -0500 From: "Michael Paz" Subject: Re: joni line [sjc]/ blackness Colin- Thanks and I get what you mean here. I forgot to mention that during my childhood and adolecence that I also was persecuted for being shy, quiet, and somewhat feminine in my demeanour. If I had a dime for everytime I was called queer, faggot, nigger, etc. I could buy peoples tolerance. If your natural mom was Spanish then you are mixed (therefore one of us ;-) But I take it you are fair skinned, which is something I will never know what that feels like. My number two son Julian is very fair so I feel he is going to grow up a little different than Mikey. No matter what, I think they will learn that we have always welcomed all kinds of people into our home and never made a big deal about what colour they were or sexual preferences etc. They have also seen many a sick child coming from Honduras to a US hospital that have overnighted with us and have learned that loving and caring for all mankind is the true path to follow. Thanks for the post Michael NP-Seasons-Elton John - ----- Original Message ----- From: colin To: ; ; Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2001 11:03 AM Subject: Re: joni line [sjc]/ blackness Not being black or even mixed race, i don;t feel i ahev much difficulty understanding what you just wrote. i don't think many gay people would. Algthough in some ways different, I think our experience is pretty much as you describe. When i was a child and living briefly here in the UK and longer in the Australian outback, having a Spanish mother was a reason to be singkled out and being treated differently. things are different now-no one ever aks about my ethnic background. However, the gay thing is still there of course and the reason we are on the 'outisde' and I think always will be. I am reminded of Ellen telling Oprah, in an episode of Ellen, of Ellen's experience and Oprah saying that she of course understood, being a black woman etc. I found this both amusing and warming as in my experience in the past equaiting the struggle of gay people with the struggle of people of colour has resulted in anger and hate emanating form the people fo colour. It seemed that the comparison was not welcomed regardless of how appropriate it is. At the basis of all such prejudice is fear and lack of self esteem. Both of these things require the person to have an 'enemy' or someone to feel better than rather than to actually to do the work necessary to change. Whatever ethnic group, gender, sexuality, or whatever you are, there is always someone who will hate you for it. the trick is to love yourself regardless. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 12:44:09 -0500 From: "Donna J. Binkley" Subject: RE: Shake the Willy LMAO, your too funny! db - -----Original Message----- From: les@jmdl.com [mailto:les@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of Gordon Mackie Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2001 3:15 AM To: joni@smoe.org Subject: Shake the Willy The 'ruby in a black man's ear' which is correctly attributed to Shakepeare does not have a literal meaning in the play Othello. It actually refers to something rather different...an erect penis. It was an allusion used often by Willy the Shake (which seems to have a different conotation now). Actually, this is my vain attempt to be humourous and I just made it up. Please someone find this vaguely amusing...I am trying to lighten up..honest...honest... Anna Karenina ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 12:33:05 -0500 From: "Michael Paz" Subject: Re: blackness, now NJC Cindy- Thanks for your post. It cracked me up! I REALLY do have a sense of humor about all this and I appreciate you reminding of this after my knee jerk reaction to the topic of discussion. Many of the things you say touch my heart as well as my funny bone and that's cool. Michael NP-Oh Very Young-Cat Stevens (I just love my Sonicnet) - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Michael Paz Cc: ; Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2001 11:11 AM Subject: Re: blackness, now NJC > > Michael - > My one campaign promise..... > I've always sworn that when/if i'm elected God that I'll make > everyone a delicious cafe au lait color so that we'll have to > find some new reasons to hate each other. This racial thing is > getting really tiresome. > And while I say this somewhat tongue in cheek (I mean, I'm not > really qualified to be God, I don't suppose), and while I have > nothing to complain about directly (since you can't look much > more WASP than me), know that I've watched sooo many friends > struggle with all of the race issues that stubbornly still cling > here in the South and that I'd love to be part of the answer. > As such, I teach my child to love people's hearts and their minds > and not their skin or their appearance, and I teach her to > appreciate the entire spectrum of creation, not just the parts > that she can see in her mirror. > I suppose it's human nature to exalt ourselves. It's just too > bad that the other side of that coin is too often that we > belittle those that are "other." Maybe my OTHER hero, Dr. Suess, > covers that topic best in his story about the Sneeches. > Anyhow..... > Thanks for talking about it. > > Cindy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 10:40:04 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: books > Books- how about a 'favourite book' thread for all of us who don't have cars. > Or maybe a 'book I'm currently reading' thread. I'll start the ball rolling > with "The Third Policeman" by Flann O'Brien, and "A THOUSAND YEARS OF > NONLINEAR HISTORY" by Manuel De Landa. > > 'Penblwydd Hapus' to Lori > > Mike in rainy Barcelona 'The Mists of Avalon' - I taped the TNT miniseries. I had only read about a third of the book when it aired and I won't watch it until I've finished! Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 10:34:07 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: joni line [sjc]/ blackness I would actually like to be referred to > as "human." I would like to see the day that a person sees my character > before he/she sees the color of my skin. That doesn't mean I am not proud of > my ethnicity, it just means that I would prefer to be acknowledged as a > member of the human race. This is just my own personal opinion. > > Sherelle Wouldn't that be a beautiful thing, Sherelle? Although I've lost interest in her later work, there are a couple of Rita Mae Brown's books that are among my favorites. Here's a quote from 'Southern Discomfort': 'Well don't you see, Miz Banastre? I've thought about this before, too. It's God's joke.' 'Color?'' 'Yes, color and everything. God put beautiful spirits into these bodies, all kinds of bodies. There's men and women and white and black and beautiful and ugly and old and young and oh, just everything. And we dumb humans are confused by the outside. We keep looking at the outside instead of the inside.....Pretty soon we start killing each other because of these bodies. And God laughs because we're so stupid. We can't see anything. He puts spirits in every one of us and trees and cats and everything. So maybe we aren't the same outside, maybe we are unequal, but inside the soul is pure. All souls are equal. If only we could see the soul. Some people do and they understand the joke and maybe they find happiness. I_' She fumbled for her thoughts, a connection, and then said with finality, 'We are one.' Me again: I think of myself first and foremost as a human being. My race and even my gender come somewhere further down the list after that. They are not as important. And like Blue Rhonda Latrec, the character speaking above who was not what she seemed to be, I too believe that we are all connected to one another and the physical differences between us are insignificant. It's very evident to me that Joni feels the same way. I too want to thank Julius, Sherelle & Brenda and everyone else who has posted on this thread for the depth, honesty & insight they have put into their writing. We need to be able to talk to one another to even begin to truly understand. I love seeing this kind of honest & respectful discussion. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 19:26:06 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) From: "colin" Subject: Re: soul? NJC julius wrote: My dictionary defines "soul" in the context we're discussing it as: "a strong positive feeling (as of intense sensitivity and emotional fervor) which is more or less what i thought it meant. I don't see how it can be confined to a race. Here's a very incomplete list of some musicians/performers who have soul, in my humble opinion: Carly Simon, I agree! She makes me feel like i will burst sometimes. Sinaed O'conner does so too but only on her Universal Mother album. Grace Slick on Dreams, Tracy Chapman, Janis Ian and several others. recently we went to a huge Garden centre and they had some young performers there from the Boston Youth Theatre(Boston Lincs, UK). The boy who was heading them definately had soul. He actually brought tears to my eyes. i was very moved. he sang old sho tunes from Les Mis and Jesus Christ Supertstar and otehrs. I am rarely moved by a male singer but was bwoled over by this one. He put everyhting in it and his face showed that he was really feeling waht he was singing. It was really amzing and left me quite unsettled as I was taken by surprise and was unsaure as to why i got so emotional. Going back to carly, her voice sends shivers down my spine. She can sing really deep, deeper than I can do ans when she does, i go all goosbumpy or my stomach flips. I have to say that as much as I enjoy Joni, she doesn't have that effect on me. She is altogether diffewrent and I would be hard pressed to explain why i listen to her so much. I tend to think more when listening to her whereas with Carly I tend to feel more. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 14:20:47 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: The Dating of Summer Lawns KJHSF@aol.com wrote: > Very interesting observations! I've felt that the music was intended to > sound this way for the very same reasons. What amazes me is that the period > pieces, Edith and also the title tune, sound so much like my own memories of > childhood. My Mom listened to Herb Alpert a lot and I have vivid memories of > playing in the sprinkler on the lawn in the late afternoon sunlight while > this music was playing. When I hear those muted horns on Hissing (The song) > I am completely reminded of Herb Alpert, and childhood and summertime. Just > another way that Joni has painted with words and music and the accurate > colors of the way she chose the music to sound. Funny. As much as I was not much enamored of HOSL when it came out, I think it sounds much less dated than DED or WTRF. Jerry np: some great blues on WMNF ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 19:27:48 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) From: "colin" Subject: Re: joni line [sjc]/ blackness > Sherelle Wouldn't that be a beautiful thing, Sherelle? Although I've lost interest in her later work, there are a couple of Rita Mae Brown's books that are among my favorites. Here's a quote from 'Southern Discomfort': 'Well don't you see, Miz Banastre? I've thought about this before, too. It's God's joke.' 'Color?'' 'Yes, color and everything. God put beautiful spirits into these bodies, all kinds of bodies. There's men and women and white and black and beautiful and ugly and old and young and oh, just everything. And we dumb humans are confused by the outside. We keep looking at the outside instead of the inside.....Pretty soon we start killing each other because of these bodies. And God laughs because we're so stupid. We can't see anything. He puts spirits in every one of us and trees and cats and everything. So maybe we aren't the same outside, maybe we are unequal, but inside the soul is pure. All souls are equal. If only we could see the soul. Some people do and they understand the joke and maybe they find happiness. I_' She fumbled for her thoughts, a connection, and then said with finality, 'We are one.' thanks you for sharing that Mark. I think it just about sums it up. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 19:32:36 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) From: "colin" Subject: Re: joni line [sjc]/ blackness - -------Original Message------- From: Michael Paz Date: 19 July 2001 18:50:16 To: colin; JRMCo1@aol.com; joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: joni line [sjc]/ blackness Colin- Thanks and I get what you mean here. I forgot to mention that during my childhood and adolecence that I also was persecuted for being shy, quiet, and somewhat feminine in my demeanour. If I had a dime for everytime I was called queer, faggot, nigger, etc. I could buy peoples tolerance. DITTO If your natural mom was Spanish then you are mixed (therefore one of us ;-) that is how i see myself-as mixed. My mother comes from spanish, greek, african, celtic background, my father from english/irish. But I take it you are fair skinned, which is something I will never know what that feels like. I am not sure what you mean by fair skinned. I ahev balck hari and an olive skin which if out in the sun goes very dark-dark enough that when I first came to the UK from Australia, people thought I was asian. However, my skin is white white as we don't get much sun here(!) and I have no patience for sun bathing. Besides, i like to look younger than my 20/22 years! and have learned that loving and caring for all mankind is the true path to follow. and the hardest! bw colin ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2001 #301 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?