From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2001 #294 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Saturday, July 14 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 294 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. Information on the 4th "Annual" New England JoniFest: http://www.jmdl.com/jfne2001.cfm ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Joni, WTRF, and drugs [Randy Remote ] Re: memory [Randy Remote ] Re: memory [FMYFL@aol.com] re: Joni & Shawn ["J.W. (yes, Jerome)" ] Re: Cars-NJC ["Lori R. Fye" ] Re: memory ["colin" ] RE: joni on cobainNJC ["colin" ] Re: The Blue Tapestry Thing...SJC ["hell" ] Re: Carole King feature article - SJC - long post ["hell" ] Re: Cars-NJC ["hell" ] Re: joni on cobain, now njc [susan+rick ] Re: Joni, WTRF, and drugs ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Parodies. MJC ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Toto, Roseanna (NJC) ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Joni, WTRF, and drugs ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: The Blue Tapestry Thing...SJC ["Mark or Travis" ] njc - Barbra Streisand AFI tribute ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: more WTRF [CaT627@cs.com] Re: NJC Re: Observations/Joni cover performances ["Brenda J. Walker" Subject: Re: Joni, WTRF, and drugs Thank you, Mark, for helping me defend Joni's child. They say she is ugly-I see great beauty there... I would only add that if you listen, you can hear some nice electric guitar playing by Joni underpinning everything- also the layered harmony vocals are as elaborate and lovely as anything she has done-(more below) Mark or Travis wrote: > I'm listening to WTRF as I write this. I've never considered it one > of my favorites but listening to it tonight I think it's a damn good > record! MDESTE1@aol.com wrote: > Then there's all sorts of disjointed sections in the songs themselves. > Soaring hard rock crunch chords followed by jazz shuffle sections as if > they recorded a majestic rock intro only to "change their mind" in > production approach in the next 15 second section. Funny, I don't relate to them that way at all-to me the title track, and the others don't seem disjointed, and the direction seems sure and deliberate. Obviously I'm in the minority for loving this record so much-but like Colin said, there's no accounting for taste! Or lack thereof... RR driving a Volvo wagon, a Jeep Cherokee, a Honda dirtbike, all over 10 yrs old-no annoying new car smell! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 13:50:07 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: memory I can't remember a phone number 5 minutes later, but often sit down and play a song I heard on the radio once 25 years ago. I can sing you the Sport Cola commercial from 1968 (starring Wally Cox)-but can't remember what I did a week ago. Ramsey Remorse (is that right?) colin wrote: > I have a bad memeroy for various things like appointments, what i did > yesterday, my designs unless I write it all down, forget where I know > people from etc. > yet i have an excellent memory for phone numbers and other numbers. > I do all my banking via the net. I remember all the passwords and > numbers. I can recall a 28 digit number and a 24 sequence of numbers and > letters. > I wonder why my memory works for the numbers but for ordianry things. > Like I will go upstairs or downstairs for something and forget why I > went. Soemthimes i foregt what i am talking about in converstaion-I will > just stop and think 'what was i saying' and need to be reminded! > I often cannot remember the correct track or album for Joni songs. I can > sing along to them happily recalling all the words but if they aren't > actually playing I can't recall the words at all. Same with Carly. I > can't even hum a tune that I have heard thousands of times. I can with > hymns and silly ryhmes that i have heard only a few times and can recall > jokes. But ask me to hum a favourite Joni or Carly song and I can't. > weird. > > -- > bw > colin ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 17:25:10 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: memory In a message dated 7/13/01 3:57:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, colin@tantra-apso.com writes: > I don't know. I am embarrassed that I can't recall songs I have listend too > thousands of times! > > It's only because I own all the Joni covers with the 792,439 versions of "Both Sides Now" that I know all the words to that song. As many times as I've listened to the rest of Joni's songs, I still need the liner notes with me AND now that I'm soooo old, I have to find my ultra magnifying reading glasses just to see them. It's funny that I still know all the words to "Waltzing Matilda" or "Playmate" which I learned as a little kid. Jimmy NPIMH - "Oh playmate, won't you come out and play? and bring your dollies three, climb up my apple tree...." OMG ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 14:34:04 -0700 From: "J.W. (yes, Jerome)" Subject: re: Joni & Shawn OK, I haven't posted in some time and I rarely, if ever, posted on Joni's personal life but this one screamed out for some clarity. Joni and Larry were married...this we all know. Shawn's album, 'Fat City' was produced by Larry. Joni shows up in the form of handclaps and a laugh on one track. Shortly thereafter, during the making of Turbulent Indigo, Joni and Larry broke up. Shawn, who was married at the time, went through a divorce not long after herself. However, before that she was living with John Leventhal. He produced her first album and her first post-divorce album, 'A Few Small Repairs' as well as her criminally underlooked most recent album. John, however, is married to Rosanne Cash, daughter or Johnny. He produced HER album, 'The Wheel' back in like '91. They've been married since about then and have two children together, I believe. Anyhow, this is the long winded clarification of the subject. The short is, Joni and Shawn ARE friends. Shawn is married to a lovely man named Mario, who is the father of their baby, Caledonia. And Larry is still happily dating the lovely Diana Krall, according to my sources. So that's what I know. Jerome realizing that his music-whore status goes so far beyond owning too many CDs that he may just go check into Betty Ford now... _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 14:51:01 -0700 (PDT) From: "Lori R. Fye" Subject: Re: Cars-NJC 1995 Chevy Cavalier coupe, 5-speed manual, 2 litre engine, A/C, cruise control, sun roof, sort of blue/green, with just an AM/FM radio so I'll listen to what's "out there" (otherwise I won't). Bought new, 53,000 miles, runs great, gets about 38 miles per gallon on the highway. (And although this almost sounds like an ad, it's not for sale!) Lori in DC (well really, Bethesda, Maryland) ~ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 23:55:07 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) From: "colin" Subject: Re: memory me AND now that I'm soooo old, I have to find my ultra magnifying reading glasses just to see them. well i am short sighted but am now having to hold my reading a bit further away! Mind you that is only with the glasses on. I usuallly read without them. With contacts I can't read at all-almost. It will be a while yet before I have to those bifocals. Jimmy NPIMH - "Oh playmate, won't you come out and play? and bring your dollies three, climb up my apple tree...." OMG I remember this from childhood: If mini skirts grow shorter said the fairy to the gnome there will be two more cheeks to powder and a bit more hair to comb !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And I didn't understand it back then. well i did get the cheeks bit but that last line had me stumped. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 00:15:22 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) From: "colin" Subject: RE: joni on cobainNJC - -------Original Message------- From: colin There's a saying that goes "those who commit suicide don't end their pain, they leave it on the shoulders of those who they left behind". just to add that i think who came up with this saying was selfish to say the least. Lacking in empathy too. perhaps they would have been better off keeping their mouth shut and spent time learning about people and attempting to put themselves in others shoes It really, really pisses me off that people should be so callous and spout off about soemthing they know fuck all about. That is one of the major things wrong with this world-the lack of empathy and caring. Peopl are all to willing to bury their heads in the sand, look the other way, turn a blind eye etc to what is going on around them(which is how many many children are abused to the point of death weekly) and it these same fuckers who make such judgemental statemetns about those that decide they can't take the shit anymore. Shame on them. It is so much easier to blame the victim. Oh and in many cases, too many, there is no who gives a shit if a person does take their life! Instead of coming of with ignorant crap like the above statement, they'd be bettor off searching themselves and seeing what they could do, really do, to lessen the load people have to carry. I rememeber a few years back sharing abotu a young man, an acquaintence, who had been terribly abused, cigarrettes stubbed out on him, beatings, no lo ve etc. he cried out for help. he went to a hospital where he was truend away. He went away-and threw himself off the 14th floor of a tower block. I was amzed at the callous response that got from someone:'it was his choice'. clearly the responder knew nothing about the human psyche and how damaged it could become. as far as I am aware there was no one who really gave a shit about Michael, alive or dead. As for Cobain-none of us have walked in his shoes, none of us know what was going on inside him and therefore sghould not judge what he did. I think partly with famous and rich people, it is envy that makes people make such statements. Why should he be any different to anyone else? Or do you really think riches and fame makes a person happy? It is a sad world we live in and we are the cause. As in Joni's song Man is the sire of sorrow. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 11:58:18 +1200 From: "hell" Subject: Re: The Blue Tapestry Thing...SJC Chris wrote: > Furthermore, as we take this time to celebrate "Tapestry" in our own way, by > 'threading' about it, I will vent my frustration about the other really great > Carole King discs that always get lost in the Tapestry shuffle. Much as it's > one of the best recordings we've got, I simply cannot listen to it anymore. > VERY seldom. Over the years, I've come to appreciate it's follow-up, "Music" > much more, probably for no other reason than the tunes on it have not > suffered form the massive overexposure that Tap's lead cuts have. "Rhymes & > Reasons" is also excellent Carole King, nothing mind boggling, but a great > pop record nontheless. > My favorite, though, is "Fantasy". Much as it's sound is now quite dated, > this was probably the most interesting record she made. We get Carole's > commentary about the Women's Liberation movement, several different angles on > the difficulties of inner-city living, and a bit of political commentary > sprinkled in. The music often sounds like the soundtrack from a cheesy > crime-drama of the same period ('73 - take your pick), but with all it's > flaws, it's not just MORE BLAND LOVE SONGS FROM CAROLE KING, who I admire > very much despite her repetitive nature. We have to cut CK some slack about > that - she was trained to write that way. And made a good living doing it. I have to clarify something I said in my post on Tapestry. I effectively said that Carole's work deteriorated after Tapestry, which was a damn lie! I completely agree that Music and Fantasy are very strong albums, and I think Carole grew musically with these as well. But I think the main difference with her and Joni is that Carole pretty much stayed on the same path musically - her basic style didn't change too much. Sure there were the inevitable synthesisers in the 80's, but she didn't "reinvent" herself, or immerse herself in another genre like Joni did. Not that that's a bad thing, but I never felt the same excitement with a new Carole album as I did with a new Joni - with Joni you never really knew what you were going to get! Hell ____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Hell's Personal Photo Page: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/main/personal.htm Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://www.nbls.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 12:01:24 +1200 From: "hell" Subject: Re: Carole King feature article - SJC - long post Brenda wrote: > Brenda wrote: > > "Hope this doesn't send you off the deep end, but I believe Tapestry has > outsold Joni's catalog. Joni has certified US sales of around 9 million. > International sales probably add about another 3 million to that. And that's > being a bit generous." To which Bob replied: > To paraphrase the late (?), great Charlie Brown : AAARRRGGGHHH !!! Don't feel too bad, Bob! I like to think of Blue as being far more "cerebral" than Tapestry, therefore having less appeal to the average Joe Bloggs. Just think of a Joni fan being vastly more intelligent than the average person (which all of us here know too well) - doesn't that make you feel better?! Hell ____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Hell's Personal Photo Page: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/main/personal.htm Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://www.nbls.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 12:13:22 +1200 From: "hell" Subject: Re: joni on cobain Jerry wrote: > I completely agree. The minute I heard Joni's line about the whiney white kids > I thought immediately of Cobain. We all know Joni's music has different meanings for different people. I always thought the "whiney white kids" were the female singer-songwriters in the late 90's who all cited Joni as an inspiration, eg. Jewel, Joan Osborne, Alanis Morrissette. They all seemed so "angst-filled" and I got the impression Joni thought the same way I did - "Get over yourselves! What do you know about suffering!?" Hell ____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Hell's Personal Photo Page: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/main/personal.htm Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://www.nbls.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 12:19:09 +1200 From: "hell" Subject: Re: Cars-NJC An ugly but functional dirty-white 1990 Hyundai Excel. I hate it. My best car ever was a 1966 Hillman Superminx - red with a white racing stripe - that was one month younger than me. Big bench seats, column shift - a bit like a big tank! Unfortunately it died on me - a very sad day! I wish I'd had the money to restore it. Hell ____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Hell's Personal Photo Page: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/main/personal.htm Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://www.nbls.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 17:33:19 -0700 From: susan+rick Subject: Re: joni on cobain, now njc On 7/13/01 12:29 PM, Donna J. Binkley wrote > Sorry - but i have no sympathy for people who commit suicide. There's a > saying that goes "those who commit suicide don't end their pain, they leave > it on the shoulders of those who they left behind". The only man i ever > might have married shot himself right in front of me almost 20 years ago, > his family will never be the same, that night changed the course of my life > forever. Undoubtedly the people left behind suffer and I don't know the reason why your friend committed suicide but I do know that the people who commit suicide due to clinical depression are unable to believe that there is any other alternative to the absolute misery they experience for large periods in their lives. > No doubt Cobain was a troubled spirit, but reality check, um let's see, i'm > a millionaire, i'm at the pinnacle of my career, i have everything that most > people don't even get in their whole lifetime - think i'll OFF MYSELF!! Reality checks don't work for severely clinically depressed people. Reasoning doesn't work. They are unable to "snap out of it." Suicide is not a decision taken lightly and for these people it is not a cry for help. It is a seeking of oblivion. > Sorry if this offends anyone, that is not my intention, but i had to speak > up. Not offended but saddened that depression is still so poorly understood by many people. Rick ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 17:39:00 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Joni, WTRF, and drugs I think you've all given short shrift to "Man to Man," which to me is the sequel to "Cactus Tree." I think that's a great song, second on WTRF only to Chinese Cafe. But hardly anyone has mentioned Man to Man in their posts about WTRF, though Mark quoted one of several exceptional passages from it. It did occur to me after I'd written the post that this song is thematically related to 'Cactus Tree'. I also said it was one of her most honest & unsparing self observations and I stand by that. Thanks, Paul Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 17:51:50 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Parodies. MJC > So that Christmas eve instead of singing the traditional > carols,we rocked with JM. I wished I had known that was > to be are last Christmas together. But, JM will always > be so central in my thoughts and for making that > Christmas soooooo special. > Lovely post, Rebecca. Chime in often, please! Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 18:06:36 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Toto, Roseanna (NJC) (NJC) > Mark in Seattle wrote, regarding Toto: > > > I had forgotten about 'Roseanna'. Understandable. It was pretty fluffy and forgettable. > > Not for me, after it was featured in many a lesbian's favorite movie, "Personal Best," which I must've watched a dozen times! > > Lori That's a good enough reason for you to remember it! I certainly tend to remember songs that were in my favorite movies. You're gonna have a blast at Jonifest, Lori! Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 18:10:36 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Joni, WTRF, and drugs > Thank you, Mark, for helping me defend Joni's child. > They say she is ugly-I see great beauty there... > I would only add that if you listen, you can hear some nice > electric guitar playing by Joni underpinning everything- > also the layered harmony vocals are as elaborate and lovely > as anything she has done-(more below) > I was hearing some of what you're talking about when I listened last night. But I do seem to recall that the mix of Joni's lead vocal sounded a little odd. Wasn't wearing headphones or scrutinizing it as closely as Marcel did, though. Still, overall I thought the record was very cohesive and held up very well. I want to listen to it again, soon! Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 18:36:16 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: The Blue Tapestry Thing...SJC > I have to clarify something I said in my post on Tapestry. I effectively > said that Carole's work deteriorated after Tapestry, which was a damn lie! > I completely agree that Music and Fantasy are very strong albums, and I > think Carole grew musically with these as well. > > But I think the main difference with her and Joni is that Carole pretty much > stayed on the same path musically - her basic style didn't change too much. > Sure there were the inevitable synthesisers in the 80's, but she didn't > "reinvent" herself, or immerse herself in another genre like Joni did. Not > that that's a bad thing, but I never felt the same excitement with a new > Carole album as I did with a new Joni - with Joni you never really knew what > you were going to get! > > Hell Carole King was a huge leap forward in the sophistication of my musical tastes. I really loved the song 'It's Too Late' when it was such a big hit on the radio. Bought the single and later 'Tapestry'. Up til that point my faves were the Carpenters, the 5th Dimension and Dionne Warwick. I actually had a note from Carole, hand written, in response to a fan letter I sent her but for the life of me I can't locate it now. I think my mother may have tossed it out with a box of stuff that was taking up space in her closets. I really loved 'Music' and 'Rhymes & Reasons' brings back a lot of memories of my first year in college. I also liked 'Fantasy' and appreciated her attempt to make some kind of social statement. I bought 'Wrap Around Joy' but the only song I really remember from it is 'Jazz Man'. I stopped buying her stuff after that one. By that time I had discovered Carly Simon and ultimately, Joni. Carole just didn't interest me that much anymore. But Carole King certainly deserves a place in music history. She & Goffin penned some of the songs that became great soul classics of the 60s. Aretha's 'Natural Woman' comes to mind. 'Tapestry' is an amazing work of popular art. It just makes you feel good to listen to it. Seemingly simple songs that can take you deep inside your innermost feelings. They almost seem to tap into something archetypical in a Jungian kinda way.... Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 18:45:09 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: njc - Barbra Streisand AFI tribute Sorry for the bandwidth but if anyone happened to tape the AFI tribute to Barbra Streisand that aired on FOX about a month ago, please contact me offlist. A friend of mine who's a huge Streisand fanatic has been kicking himself because he missed this. Thanks! Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 15:11:59 +1200 From: "hell" Subject: Re: Only Carole now - NJC Mark wrote: > Carole King was a huge leap forward in the sophistication of my > musical tastes. I really loved the song 'It's Too Late' when it was > such a big hit on the radio. Bought the single and later 'Tapestry'. > Up til that point my faves were the Carpenters, the 5th Dimension and > Dionne Warwick. I actually had a note from Carole, hand written, in > response to a fan letter I sent her but for the life of me I can't > locate it now. I think my mother may have tossed it out with a box of > stuff that was taking up space in her closets. Oh, I'd be devastated! I tried to write fan letters to Carole half a dozen times from the age of about 13 through 15 - but they all got returned "address unknown" - which took 6 weeks or so from NZ to the US. So disappointing! From memory, it's probably just as well, given my over-exuberance at the time (the word "gushing" springs to mind). I didn't have the firm grasp and awareness of the subtle nuances of the English language that I have now ...... is anyone else laughing as hard as I am right now? Back to Carole though. > I really loved 'Music' and 'Rhymes & Reasons' brings back a lot of > memories of my first year in college. I also liked 'Fantasy' and > appreciated her attempt to make some kind of social statement. I > bought 'Wrap Around Joy' but the only song I really remember from it > is 'Jazz Man'. I stopped buying her stuff after that one. By that > time I had discovered Carly Simon and ultimately, Joni. Carole just > didn't interest me that much anymore. As I've said previously, her albums later were not to the same standard (IMO) as her earlier work, but there were some great songs, worth giving a listen if you get a chance. One of my favourite CK albums is Touch The Sky (1979), which has a real country sound (which I don't normally like) but it seems to work. There are some great lyrics too: From "Time Gone By": Young ones conceived in a passion Of directions we thought enlightened Grown up they follow the mood in fashion But beneath their bravado, you know they're frightened And from "Crazy": You take your action in weekends at a time But you can make all week your own if you set your mind You see security in the chrome American dream But I don't believe in living in the middle with available extremes Hell ____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Hell's Personal Photo Page: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/main/personal.htm Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://www.nbls.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 23:44:43 EDT From: CaT627@cs.com Subject: Re: more WTRF In a message dated 7/13/2001 2:44:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, BachelorNumero2@aol.com writes: << ell, all this discussion about WTRF has made my decision whether or not to buy WTRF a hard one. >> You might want to just consider buying the whole discography. WTRF is an exceptional LP even though when if first came out I did not care for it. But Joni does grow on you and not like mold, like a fine wine. I am even beginning to like DED, which is amazing. I am not into all that electronical sound which is why I am not crazy about TTT either. When she came out with TI, I felt that she finally got her *groove* back. But I love Joni and she certainly is timeless. Catgirl......wishing she could hear WTRF but left it at a friends house ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 21:10:08 -0700 From: "Brenda J. Walker" Subject: Re: NJC Re: Observations/Joni cover performances SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > How do they track all those radio royalties? > > By monitoring statistically chosen radio station logs and collecting cue sheets for television. To learn more about it, check out question 10 here: http://www.bmi.com/songwriter/resources/pubs/general.asp ASCAP's tracking process is similar. It sounds simple but they both really have come up with quite impressive systems for tracking. People have their complaints, but for many artists the only time they actually get any money for what they do is when there is some use of their song(s) and there is payment for the performance. Brenda n.p.: Caron Wheeler - Lite as a Feather ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 01:20:34 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: memory In a message dated 7/13/01 4:34:29 PM, FMYFL@aol.com writes: << "Oh playmate, won't you come out and play? and bring your dollies three, climb up my apple tree...." >> And you've had playmates and dollies climbing your apple tree ever since! XO, --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 01:39:54 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: memory (NJC) Sorry my last post was not labeled NJC, but I also thought I was only sending it to Jimmy! Pray for me. --Bob ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2001 #294 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?