From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2001 #270 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Tuesday, June 26 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 270 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. Information on the 4th "Annual" New England JoniFest: http://www.jmdl.com/jfne2001.cfm ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Today's Articles: June 25 [les@jmdl.com] Kate & Eddi (NJC) ["Paul Castle" ] Monk's Piano Quip ... [Don Rowe ] re: Jericho ["c Karma" ] Re: Monk's Piano Quip ... [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] re: gallery cc: ["P. Henry Boland" ] Re: Monk's Piano Quip ... [Don Rowe ] Re: JMDL Digest V2001 #269 [SMC1254@aol.com] Don Juan's Reckless Bladder [Gordon Mackie ] Re: Monk's Piano Quip ... [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: good taste? ["blonde in the bleachers" ] Re: Rap uhhhh... stinks. NJC ["Brenda J. Walker" ] Covers this n' that [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re:Consumers and Creators. [Richard Rice ] Re: Rap uhhhh... stinks. NJC [colin ] Re: Rap uhhhh... stinks. NJC ["Brenda J. Walker" ] Re: Monk's Piano Quip ... ["Mark or Travis" ] A Shout Out to Richard and Marcel,NJC. short ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 03:25:47 -0400 From: les@jmdl.com Subject: Today's Articles: June 25 On June 25 this article was published: 1998: "Knocking On Wood" - Entertainment Weekly Online (Concert Preview) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/docs/980625ewol.cfm - ------------------------ The JMDL Article Database has 606 titles. http://www.jmdl.com/articles ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 12:42:48 +0100 From: "Paul Castle" Subject: Kate & Eddi (NJC) Whilst unfortunately I didn't manage to make the Jane Siberry 'meet & greet' yesterday (did any UK jmdlers get there?), I did make it to the Kate Rusby concert, managing to park on Waterloo Bridge, get a drink and watch the world and the boats go by on the Thames for an hour or so on a hot Summer's evening before the show. The concert was 'grand'! - completely sold out, with her new album 'Little Lights' already Number 1 on the UK roots chart only a couple of weeks after its release - Kate's voice really hits 'my' spot and her band are magnificent - each with their own successful careers - led by John McCusker of The Battlefield Band (Kate's partner) on fiddle, Michael McGoldrick on whistles and pipes, Andy Cutting on accordion, Ian Carr on guitar and Andy Seward on double bass. Highlight of the night, for me, was when Kate invited Eddi Reader out of the audience to sing harmonies on Richard Thompson's 'Withered and Died' (as she does on the album. Both of them are on the Compass record label in the States - (Kate at http://www.compassrecords.com/rusby.htm and Eddi at http://www.compassrecords.com/reader.htm. I managed to take a good photo of the two of them, if anyone would like to see. Kate's off to Canada and the States next month, playing at the Mariposa, Winnipeg, and Vancouver Folk Festivals before touring the West Coast of the States, ending at McCabes in Santa Monica on July 21st. Definitely worth seeing her, I reckon, although I doubt you'll understand her patter - she's broad Yorkshire. Last night she told a story about an American guy on her US tour last year who was asking her about "that song you sing about orphans". "Which one?", she asked, "I don't sing any songs about orphans", to which he replied, "That one about 'Annie'" [Her song 'I Courted a Sailor' has the line "I'm bound for the waves, the waves, dearest Annie"]. She told him that "not every 'Annie' is an orphan with red hair and a puppy, you know". Looking puzzled, he said, "Well, what's that about 'the waifs'?" 'Little Lights' is a little gem! PaulC ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 07:23:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: Monk's Piano Quip ... Caught a little of "All Things Considered" Friday on my way home from work. They were running this great story on "non-musicians" who nonethless dedicated their lives to music. One of the folks plays a jazz show out the Columbia Univ. radio station, and has for nearly 40 years. He relayed this story about how one day he had an undergrad in the studio, who was pontificating in that uniquely undergrad way about Thelonius Monk's piano playing. The guy's talking about how Monk used "all these intriguing wrong notes to create modular harmonies to deconstruct the classic blues penatonic chord ..." or some other such Musicology 101 bibble-babble. Anyway, Monk calls into the show, and says, in his uniquely taciturn way: "Tell that kid a piano ain't GOT any wrong notes." That struck me as something Joni's been aware of from the start! And not just on songs like 'Paprika Plains'. That same squint shows up throughout her keyboard work in the '80s albums ... which is another reason I have to disagree with those who characterize the sound of those albums as "cheezy" or in "poor taste." Just my circuitous 2-cents! Don Rowe ===== Visit me anytime at http://www.mp3.com/donrowe Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 14:26:21 -0000 From: "c Karma" Subject: re: Jericho While I think that the melody is more in keeping with the HOSL set, I think that "Jericho" is a perfect companion piece for "Talk To Me" in which the narrator giddily confesses an inability to contain her honesty. "Jericho" finds Joni intimately wrestling with the same issue, but when the emotional stakes seem to be higher and more care is needed. How could anyone not see the thematic link and suggest the song's impropriety there? Pass the gestalt and pepper, please. CC _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 10:33:13 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Monk's Piano Quip ... <> Not being a keyboardist, I'd love to hear an expanse on this Don...could you be more specific? Bob NP: REM, "Time after Time (annElise)" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 00:46:09 +1000 From: "P. Henry Boland" Subject: re: gallery cc: well, I didn't get any email but there have been over 300 hits in the last 24hrs since I posted the url so I guess there's interest... just FYI, as far as I know this is the most extensive Joni gallery around (if not I'd love to browse the one that is) and so, a resource for all of us. I still have a way to go but when it is all sorted out it should be pretty ok. toward that end, I appreciate especially those who have contributed, including ranger rick, jiml, philipf and a special thanks to rosemjoy for her scan of Joni's original pub-still which is so close to my heart. my thanks to these and many others. now that you can all see what I do (and don't) have, maybe you have a jpeg knocking around your hd you'd like to share too... also, if someone has decent shots from concerts/exibits, etc. they attended, I will showcase them with your name as the photog. (though I will limit some for redundency sake) obviously, the gallery is supposed to be chronological and it's not always easy identifying the time frame as out SIQUOMB has done a fair job of keeping herself up thru the years, so if you see something out of place, I appreciate the input and you don't have to be so shy about signing the guestbooks either... :o) when it is complete, I am hoping that the gallery will be a permanent adjunct to JMDL and I see it as belonging to all of us. enjoy, pat http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=1502641 Get 250 color business cards for FREE! http://businesscards.lycos.com/vp/fastpath/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 08:14:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: Monk's Piano Quip ... - --- SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > Not being a keyboardist, I'd love to hear an expanse > on this Don...could you be more specific? I'll try ... but sitting here without my own synths handy's going to make it a little bit more difficult. Mark N Travis hit upon it a bit with comparisons to the 80s incarnations of "bubble-gum." So I'll try to do this by comparison. Remember the band A-Ha, and it's one-hit wonder "Take on Me"? You surely remember the "rotoscoped" cartoon video that blended pencil-drawn illustrations in with the live-action footage if nothing else. Now, think about the repeating keyboard "vamp" from the opening of the song, and that's used throughout it as the musical "hook." It basically noodles around the open triad ... there's nothing in it that creates "dissonance" or harmonic tension. The result is, if you were to change the rhythm of the line, you'd end up with the melody to 'Mary Had A Little Lamb.' This kind of simple melodic construction was New Wave's (and certainly synth-pop's) musical answer to the blues-heavy rock, pop & disco of the 70s. Now, when you combined that with the technology of the day, and arranged whole songs using sequencers and drum machines ... you got something that, I agree, sounds dated and 'cheezy.' Even singers with chops like Annie Lennox & Alison Moyet could take that approach to composing only so far. No offense to two of my favorite divas! ;-) Okay, so -- contrast that with say, the way Joni uses the synths on a song like 'Tax Free.' Sure, she uses a repeating keyboard figure (that flutey descending line from the opening.) But compared to 'Take On Me' ... the notes are all *wrong*. Joni uses lots major 7ths ... and "resolves" the line to notes (open 4ths, I think) that seem in conflict with the next chord in the progression. That creates a much more complex harmonic texture that you find in synth pop. And if you listen carefully, there are subtle nuances in the phrasing that mean the lines could only have been "played live." They don't have that micro-chip perfect rhythmic signature you find on Human League, Heaven 17 or OMD recordings of the time. She further reinforces all those "wrong" notes in the vocal harmony "Tax free ... save me". In the end, nearly every song on DED is constructed this way. Which for me, adds up to a sound uniquely Joni Mitchell ... every bit as innovative as her alternate guitar tunings. Sure she used 80s vintage synths, but in a way only she could have. I hope I've not simply made the issue more obscure! Don Rowe ===== Visit me anytime at http://www.mp3.com/donrowe Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 11:45:05 EDT From: SMC1254@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2001 #269 I read the Rufus article. I think he is an amazing talent! Would love to know what Joni thinks ofhim. Sure she met his Dad, Loudin somewhere along the way. Stephen ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 16:49:45 +0100 From: Gordon Mackie Subject: Don Juan's Reckless Bladder I've not taken part in the 'pissing' or 'editing' discussion, not out of 'good taste' (whatever that might be) but for lack of meaningful input. I have two thoughts now: 1. Watching a tv programme about Picasso last night introduced a painting of his inspired by an earlier 'old master' of a woman 'pissng in the sea'. My mind jumped to Ms Mitchell in the parking lot, knowing how much of a fan she is of Pablo. Maybe she was making an artisitc statement after all...lol 2. I also then thought of her Miles of Aisles comment about Van Gough's Stary Stary Night. Would we be having the editing discussion if it was one of her paintings in question....e.g. I never liked that bright yellow line as I found it tedious...lol. I supect not. Why should a song make a 'perfect' universal statement? A painting never does. It's one woman's expression (back to the pissing I suspect! ha!!) and as such is completely valid. ...though I do believe in the right to criticise art. Er... so now I've just disappeared up my own anus. Er...that's it. PS (as in post script not ps as in piss....) Please read the my email with a big grin on your face. It 'aint' (remember that discussion) meant to be serious, just the ramblings of someone who watches too much telly. zzzzzzzzzzzzzz ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 12:58:16 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Monk's Piano Quip ... <> Not at all, that was precisely the sort of discourse I was looking for. And it serves as a good summary of how Joni stayed 'in the period' yet still worked her own context. Since she's not well schooled in music theory, the sounds in her head are rarely the sounds of pop music, and probably also helps to explain why DED was not popularly received even though it was music of the period. Now how does all that stack up to The Fixx, who I know you tout as being underappreciated 80's artists? Bob NP: REM, "Burning Down" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 13:27:02 -0400 From: "blonde in the bleachers" Subject: Re: good taste? >I do like some of U2's early >stuff but I think they've pretty much sold out or burnt out Have you listend to All That You Can't Leave Behind? U2, many believe, have forgotten their roots, but I couldn't disagree more, yes they may be over the top as far as how popular and mainstream they have become, but after almost 20 years of writing and releasing records they are still on top of their game and are still spreading a positive message. The Joshua Tree came out in the middle of the 80s and basically blew every other pop artist out of the water, it is a tremendous album and although I love Joni I can't say the same for any of her albums from that time period. >From: "Mark or Travis" >Reply-To: "Mark or Travis" >To: , >Subject: Re: good taste? >Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 14:31:45 -0700 > >Recordings by the 80's > > artists who did use state of the art production, (ex. Madonna, >Prince, U2, > > Peter Gabriel) who had good producers at the helm, (Brian Eno, >Daniel Lanois, > > Prince, Patrick Leonard) don't sound embarassingly awful. >I'm sorry, but > > "Good Friends" is just terrible. > >Well personally I don't care much for Prince, I've never been able to >understand why anyone would consider Madonna a major talent and I >don't know much about Peter Gabriel. I do like some of U2's early >stuff but I think they've pretty much sold out or burnt out. I do >have a lot of respect for Daniel Lanois if only for producing >Emmylou's 'Wrecking Ball.' And you're entitled to your opinion but >I don't see how 'Good Friend's is 'just terrible. > > As is the production for most of "Dog Eat > > Dog"......Thomas Dolby was not a good choice for that album. I love >Joni, I > > think she is one of the greatest singer/songwriters who has ever >lived, BUT, > > I can't say that I think "Dog" and "Chalk" are sonically in good >taste. > >Taste is all subjective isn't it? Who is the official arbiter of >'good taste?' > >I've always felt that in spite of the fact that Dolby attempted to >take over from his original position as 'consultant' that the sound & >production of 'Dog Eat Dog' are entirely appropriate for it's subject >matter. As for 'Chalk Mark', that was Joni refining the sound a bit >more and fitting it to a more personalized set of songs. By the time >she recorded 'Night Ride Home' she was using those electronic sounds >as shading, applying them sparsely for effect with beautiful results. > >Mark in Seattle >From: "Mark or Travis" >Reply-To: "Mark or Travis" >To: , >Subject: Re: good taste? >Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 14:31:45 -0700 > >Recordings by the 80's > > artists who did use state of the art production, (ex. Madonna, >Prince, U2, > > Peter Gabriel) who had good producers at the helm, (Brian Eno, >Daniel Lanois, > > Prince, Patrick Leonard) don't sound embarassingly awful. >I'm sorry, but > > "Good Friends" is just terrible. > >Well personally I don't care much for Prince, I've never been able to >understand why anyone would consider Madonna a major talent and I >don't know much about Peter Gabriel. I do like some of U2's early >stuff but I think they've pretty much sold out or burnt out. I do >have a lot of respect for Daniel Lanois if only for producing >Emmylou's 'Wrecking Ball.' And you're entitled to your opinion but >I don't see how 'Good Friend's is 'just terrible. > > As is the production for most of "Dog Eat > > Dog"......Thomas Dolby was not a good choice for that album. I love >Joni, I > > think she is one of the greatest singer/songwriters who has ever >lived, BUT, > > I can't say that I think "Dog" and "Chalk" are sonically in good >taste. > >Taste is all subjective isn't it? Who is the official arbiter of >'good taste?' > >I've always felt that in spite of the fact that Dolby attempted to >take over from his original position as 'consultant' that the sound & >production of 'Dog Eat Dog' are entirely appropriate for it's subject >matter. As for 'Chalk Mark', that was Joni refining the sound a bit >more and fitting it to a more personalized set of songs. By the time >she recorded 'Night Ride Home' she was using those electronic sounds >as shading, applying them sparsely for effect with beautiful results. > >Mark in Seattle - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 10:38:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: Monk's Piano Quip ... - --- SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > Now how does all that stack up to The Fixx, who I > know you tout as being underappreciated 80's > artists? Oh I see ... first get Rowe going and then see how tightly you can wind him up! ;-) Since you ask ... I find Rupert Greenall's keyboard sensibilities VERY closely aligned to Joni's. the Fixx managed to avoid a trap a lot of 80s bands fell into ... namely that they didn't let the keyboards "eat the sound." In fact, if we were to start artifically constructing parallels, I'd have to say "Phantoms" is the Fixx's "Hejira" ... and "Walkabout" their DJRD respectively. Unfortunately, I'm trapped in the grey world where the jmdl might not appreciate the comparisons any more than the Lighthouse (Fixx mailing list). In a lot of the same ways that Joni & Larry play off each other (bass-to-keyboards), Rupert and Jamie West-Oram set up a guitar-to-keyboard dialog that's at the heart of the Fixx sound. Songs like "Phantom Living", "Secret Seapration", "Chasing the Wind" all have those same DED/CMIARS dynamic echoes ... and employ a lot of the same 'wrong-note' chord progressions and melodic counterpoint phrasing. Lyrically of course, I think the Fixx was following a somewhat different Canadian piper ... so it should come as no surprise that the #2 Fave band on the Lighthouse is ... you guessed it ... RUSH. Although at their heights of obscurity, the Fixx doesn't even begin to approach Geddy and Co.'s baroque arrangement. Interestingly enough, if you appreciate the Fixx, you should pick up their "unplugged" collection: 1011 Woodlands. It features acoustic arrangements of their big hits, and released singles from the classic period. Some are my favorite versions of those songs, despite the fact that the heavier synth and guitar processing production's been stripped off. Go figure. In a way that collection kind of makes me wish Joni would take a similar approach with some of the cuts from DED & CMIARS ... like the solo piano treatment of The Three Great Stimulants. I think that, more than anything, would go a long way towards helping those who can't get past the oscillators appreciate the material. But Lindsey Buckingham will release 7 albums before we ever see THAT happening ... which should give you an idea how remote I consider the possibility! ;-) Don Rowe ===== Visit me anytime at http://www.mp3.com/donrowe Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 10:40:50 -0700 From: "Brenda J. Walker" Subject: Re: Rap uhhhh... stinks. NJC Can we qualify this and say that certain rap stinks? Or even most commercial rap stinks? Because there are rap artists who make records that are not one-note trash dumps. I offer (hoping that some will give it a chance): Classics A Tribe Called Quest - "The Low End Theory" (Seminal combining of rap with jazz. Q-Tip from Janet's "Got Til It's Gone" started out in Tribe.) Boogie Down Productions - "Edutainment" (KRS-One is probably the most respected lyricist in rap. On this record, he speaks about such things as the homeless and police brutality.) Stolen Moments: "Red, Hot & Cool" (How can you go wrong with the likes of the Roots, the Pharcyde, Herbie Hancock and Don Cherry on the same record?) Young Disciples - "Road to Freedom" ("Freedom Suite" ought to be the anthem for anyone whose every had a slur shouted (or whispered) in their direction . . . or anyone given a look for holding hands with the "wrong" person.) Public Enemy - "It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back" (Probably the best rap album ever made and one of the most influential popular albums of the last 25 years. If you've never heard it, borrow it from the library and listen to those lyrics. Forget the medium and go for the message.) Today Common - "One Day It'll All Make Sense" (Or his latest "Like Water For Chocolate." Both are smart, moving records dealing with the struggles and sincere feelings of a young black man. He caught considerable heat early in his career for denouncing gangsta rap.) Jill Scott - "Who Is Jill Scott?" (Some people are going to say she's not rap, but she, like Lauryn Hill has found a way of combining rapping and singing that works. "He Loves Me" is a fantastic, youthful love song.) Lauryn Hill - "Miseducation" (Because it sold so many copies, I always think everyone must own it but maybe not.) Mos Def - "Black Star" or "Black on Both Sides" (Member of a collective called Native Tongues which includes De La Soul, Tribe, Common and Public Enemy. No slouches allowed.) The Roots - "Things Fall Apart" (The popular breakthrough from this band from Philadelphia. They gave Jill Scott her start and are good fun live. By contrast, listen to "The Return to Innocence Lost" a painful tale of spousal abuse and addiction.) Even DMX's battle with his inner demon, "Damien" on his debut album, "It's Dark and Hell is Hot" is worth a listen. I could go on and on and will happily for anyone who is interested. (And would be happy to toss some tracks up in an MP3 locker for the uninitiated.) I am a rap fan and I get worked up when the whole genre is dismissed with the derivative, exaggerated trash that sells. (And I believe that my friends, lovers and parents would all say I treat them reasonably well ;) True rap fans agree with Lama that the music (and I hesitate to call it that) described in the post is garbage. I think rap is growing through the same thing which other youth culture music movements have experienced - once it becomes popular, the best stuff remains, for the most part underground. However, some co-worker's bad taste should not be cause to indict the whole genre. Brenda n.p. - Les Nubians - Makeda Jim L'Hommedieu wrote: > > This post involves lots of horrific language. Listers who have not had a > tetnus shot recently are advised to delete now. > > -- > > In the kitchen at my night job, it's usually speed metal on the CD player. > Tonight, when no one was around, I put the radio on an FM station doing a > retrospective on the blues-oriented Fleetwood Mac, pre-Buckingham & Nicks. > While I was emptying the garbage, one of the youngsters entered the kitchen > and said, "What the f*ck is this f-*king shit? Who the f*ck put this > f*cking, f*cked-up sh*t on? What the f*ck?" > > I guess he wanted something polysyllablic instead of the blues, so he put > on a CD that featured the word "m*therf*cker" and "n*gger" four times in > the first sentence and involved screaming hysteria, and threats for 4 > minutes. > > The next song was much, much gentler. A woman began singing an actual > melody over the top of a gentle, hypnotic rhythmn, and I felt myself giving > this CD a second chance. So I tuned into her lyric, which was, > approximately, > > "Your mommy ain't sh*t. > Your daddy ain't sh*t. > Your brother ain't sh*t. > Your sister ain't sh*t. > Your dick ain't sh*t." > > This is fun? This is a reason to go to the mall and spend money? Can > someone help me with this? > > Harrumph! In my day, we knew what a good lyric was. To wit: > > "Louie, Louie, Louie, Louieeee. > Louie, Louie, Louie, Lou-ahhhh." > > Ahhh. My humanity is creeping back. How do rap fans drive on the freeway? > How do rap fans make a purchase? How do they treat their pets? > Their lovers? Their parents? > > Lama ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 13:53:30 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Monk's Piano Quip ... <> Thanks again, Don...I wouldn't have asked if I wasn't sincerely interested in hearing what you had to say. Like most folks, I'm not as exposed to The Fixx (other than the radio hits), so I'll have to keep my ears open and give those a listen when I get the chance. PS: A good way to get me to buy a record is to say it reminds you of Hejira! :~) Further to your earlier statement, maybe Joni should have made a "Reload" instead of a "Misses"...re-record some of her songs with a different treatment. Anybody have any ideas for a project like that? I've been enjoying Anni Clark's GREAT version of conversation, with a nice subtle bass line and congas accenting the guitar, and would love to hear her do some of the early stuff with some added musical textures to achieve the fuller sound she got on FTR. Bob NP: REM, "Stumble" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 12:28:56 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Sonic Dating I'm late in responding but wanted to say I liked "Bachelor Numero 2's" comments here. I also like how Don Rowe has juxtaposed the 80s Joni to the music of that time. Once, while trying to explain to a friend how different and "weird" DJRD sounded in the times when it was released, I compared it to the other music I and listened to (on 8-track) in my car during long commutes back then. (Some of these titles may elicit a snort or two, but I've previously come clean re: music slutdom. To get the full effect one must listen to these every day for several months and then slip DJRD into the mix ;-) Pablo Cruise - A Place in the Sun Average White Band - Person to Person Cheryl Lynn ("Got to be real") Stephen Bishop - Save it for a Rainy Day CSN - ("Sailboat" album) Elton John - Honky Chateau Joni - HOSL With the exception of HOSL, the poor misunderstood DJRD is something from another universe in this particular musical galaxy. Kakki NP: Pablo Cruise - Whatcha Gonna Do Bachelor Numero2 wrote: > Anyone can say what they want about Joni's "weird" or experimental works of > the seventies.....BUT one thing critics never applaud is the strength of her > vision..........Her output (at least up until the "Wild Things"/"Dog Eat Dog" > period) is all Joni.........there are no disco sounds to be found on her late > seventies albums............Had she followed the crowd, DJRD would have heavy > synths and funk bass and "Dreamland" would be "Discoland" instead. I can > listen to the majority of "Hejira", "DJRD", and "Mingus" and not be able to > tell that those were 70's albums........This is largely due to the fact that > she was working with Jazz musicians, who use real instruments and don't rely > on dazzling/state-of-the art production. Her 70's output (for the most part) > can truly be considered "timeless"...........something that many of her > seventies counterparts cannot say. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 17:05:42 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Covers this n' that Note #1: I got an album off of E-bay on Friday, the track listing was not complete in the item description, but I knew it had BSN on it, so I picked it up. When I got it, I was delighted to see that it also had "Cactus Tree" on it. Then, my jaw hit the floor when I saw a track on the LP called "Winter Lady"!! Alas, it was not Joni's song, but at least I got a bonus cover, which made me feel good! The LP is by The Travelers, who were a folk vocal group from Mt. Vernon Junior College. Note# 2: Catherine Turley alert!! I see where Shawn Colvin has also performed "Free Man In Paris" live...(at the induction to the RnR Hall of Fame (?)) Any chance of us scoring that for the collection? Note# 3: Also to Catherine T...need your mailing address. More covers news just around the corner...after all, it's almost July! ;~) Bob NP: Elliott Smith, "I Better Be Quiet Now" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 15:53:56 -0500 From: Richard Rice Subject: Re:Consumers and Creators. Hi RR, Thanks for the considered reply. I enjoyed the feedback. Here's a few of my own... - --There's never been anything wrong with her pitch; and I scratch my head that her reduced ability to physically sing is anything but a liability. If greater experience in her life gives her a greater feeling and expressiveness-wouldn't it be even better if her voice were in better shape? Randy, it's my turn to disagree on this one. Her initial renditions of the Mingus material reveal a good pop singer over her head with the complex subtleties of jazz performance. For instance, I don't recall the which tree disk it's on, but Joni's early "live" performance of the Mingus songs is woefully out of pitch and rhythm. She improved on the studio recording, but her pitch is still off in spots and the sparkle and subtleties of Jazz performance just aren't there. It's not bad singing. But definitely not Sarah Vaughn, Ella Fitzgerald league stuff. To further strength my argument, I go to Joni and Herbie Hancock. Joni has written ( her quotes are on the jmdl site) that singing Mingus's songs have made her a better singer. Jump years ahead to Joni recording for Herbie Hancock's cd... In the studio, he looks at her in amazement and asks, "Where did you get that voice???!!!!" (You can really tell in her voice she loves repeating this event. She's obviously proud.) Now if Joni Mitchell and Herbie Hancock can see growth in her as a singer... -if you can't trust their ears, who CAN you trust??? Joni's rendition of The Man I Love is jazz vocalizing at it's highest level. - --I saw her during the BSN tour at Concord CA. (And at least 5 different times over the years since '72). The thing about a live show is that there is excitement, there is affection for the performer, there is a suspension (hopefully, if you are there to enjoy yourself) of critical thought. I had a great time, enjoyed the music, etc. Later, a jmdler was kind enough to make me a copy of her Camden, NJ show. Ouch - IMO the singing is not too good. I wonder if the show I saw and completely enjoyed sounded similar. I suspect it did. I saw the BSN show in Chicago. There were definite problems with sound levels and the acoustics as well. Some of it also has to do with where in the auditorium you are sitting. The sound was BAD during the first 2 songs, but it improved as the set went on. It wasn't as though she started off bad and improved. My first Joni concert was the Shadows and Light tour. The very first thing that come out of my mouth was "WOOOOOW!!" in regard to her voice. I guess it was listening to my cheap stereo equipment that hid her voice... I was floored by how beautiful and clear her voice and pitch were. Proof again that Joni's pitch improved: compare the opening notes of Dry Cleaner on the S&L tour to her first live Mingus performance. I rest my case on that one... Celine Dion or whoever's creativity or lack of it has nothing to do with Joni's ability to sing. They're two different things. Totally agree with that statement. My point was more in frustration to those griping about Joni's lost voice. If her singing isn't up to snuff, I recommend listening to someone with a prettier, smoke free voice rather than griping about it. Her voice isn't going to improve in this regard. So the choice is learn to enjoy it, or enjoy something else. There's a slew of singers 'out' there with prettier "awwks" (as Joni put's it), but the trade off of not listening to Joni Mitchell is... you're not listening to Joni Mitchell: music less creative (IMO), less inventive (IMO), less personal, poetic and engaging. (IMO). Again, I have a problem with this...yes, time marches on, we grow old...but there are certainly things you can to do accelerate aging, or fend it off. Which is why I made the comment about not surenduring. It's not that we should roll over on the ground and wait for the relatives to push dirt over our bodies just because we're aging. Eating well, exercising, making art, valuing ourselves and others are a part of living, not a part of fighting off aging. These things have more value if they are done as a celebration of, and taking advantage of being alive in the world. Which keeps happening until someone declares you dead. It shouldn't be done solely to 'combat' aging. Aging is going to happen because it happens. How we live in the meanwhile determines the quality of our lives. Live for quality. > She is not making products for consumers. Yes, she is. Well, obviously product is involved when you press 200,000 gazillion copies of the darned thing. My point is more of a distinction rather than a complete separation. I believe there is a higher, more artistic motivation to Joni's efforts than merely making product. In a sense, the only way she knows how to "make a product" is to make ART first and sell it as a product. It's the difference between record producers shoving the latest hot sound, riff, drums etc. etc. into a recording because it's perceived as "hot" than a truely commited musican struggling with their muse to create a form that is new, vital and responsive to their life and life perspective, taking risks. Of all the recordings she has done, (which may hint to Bob Muller's dissatisfaction with BSN), BSN is probably the most "product" like of any of her recordings. Essentially, it's about Joni trying to live again in the moment of a night singing at a benefit with a large orchestra behind her. She tried to pull it into an "artful" level by using a story cycle, by revisiting her old material in a new way. For many on the list, that was not enough and BSN comes off more as 'product' than art. While this may be the case with BSN, it is definitely NOT the case with any of her other original productions. Her music generally stand outside the trends around her because she is working from a different vein of creativity. She seeks situations, essentially by way of open tunings, where new solutions, new harmonies, original material will rise up. Her poetry is driven from her life experience, not catering to the whims of trying to please the masses with something comforting. I know saying 'she's not making product' isn't quite getting at what I mean, but I think my rambling here is getting my point across. I think, I hope... - --But "My Joni, right or wrong" makes about as much sense to me as "My country, right or wrong". I was afraid my ranting would be perceived as "Joni, right or wrong." - -Far from it. It was as clear to me as it was to Rich when Joni lost her voice and hits that false note. I'm well aware of her faults. I almost thought of posting some of them the other night. Including: Her voice is too weary sometimes. Her videos suck eggs. Her rhythm is weird. (Fred Walecki described the more technical expression for her style in this regard... but I forget.) The tempo of BSN is too, too slow. No Apologies is disjointed. She writes crappy 'throw away pop'. I guess it's the voice stuff that gets my hair going. To me it's like complaining, "The sky is too blue." --Well, so... whaddaya gonna do??? Hmmm. Yep. Too blue. Right. Well... so... - --the important thing is that she has remained creative and restless. Let's hope so. I will need do so some product consuming when I'm 90!!! Come on Joni! --You go, girl! john. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 23:31:18 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: Rap uhhhh... stinks. NJC Appreciation of music is a personal thing. I am sure you are right, Brenda, when you say the message of 'good' rap is positive. Yet i would not hear it, no matter how positive it was, becaus the music itself just grates on my nerves. I hate it! You also metnioned Janet Jackson. I don't what category she comes under , but I don't like that type of music either. Eternal, desiree, , i fact most of what you here int he charts. R&B? Whatever it is, it turns me off, i find it very irritating. Give me a woman with a guitar anyday! (but not just any old woman!) bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 15:45:22 -0700 From: "Brenda J. Walker" Subject: Re: Rap uhhhh... stinks. NJC Sure...and I happily accept that because we should celebrate our differences. What I don't accept is condemning the whole genre because there are SOME bad artists making bad records within it. colin wrote: > > Appreciation of music is a personal thing. I am sure you are right, Brenda, when > you say the message of 'good' rap is positive. Yet i would not hear it, no matter > how positive it was, becaus the music itself just grates on my nerves. I hate it! > You also metnioned Janet Jackson. I don't what category she comes under , but I > don't like that type of music either. Eternal, desiree, , i fact most of what you > here int he charts. R&B? Whatever it is, it turns me off, i find it very > irritating. > Give me a woman with a guitar anyday! (but not just any old woman!) > bw > colin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 16:07:32 -0700 From: "Brenda J. Walker" Subject: Re: Rap uhhhh... stinks/Appreciation vs. Taste NJC Let me qualify. I can understand differences in taste. However, I do not agree that appreciation is a personal thing. I'm not a bluegrass fan. It does not suit my personal taste. However, I can listen to bluegrass and appreciate the various levels of musicianship that different artists present through their music. Appreciation to me is being able to tell a good bluegrass artist from a bad one, even though I don't like bluegrass. Brenda colin wrote: > > Appreciation of music is a personal thing. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 01:25:18 +0100 From: "Chris Marshall" Subject: RE: Rap uhhhh... stinks. NJC Colin said:- > Appreciation of music is a personal thing. I am sure you are > right, Brenda, when > you say the message of 'good' rap is positive. Yet i would > not hear it, no matter > how positive it was, becaus the music itself just grates on > my nerves. I hate it! > You also metnioned Janet Jackson. I don't what category she > comes under , but I > don't like that type of music either. Eternal, desiree, , i > fact most of what you > here int he charts. R&B? Whatever it is, it turns me off, i > find it very > irritating. > Give me a woman with a guitar anyday! (but not just any old woman!) Just checking, but by "desiree" you don't mean "des'ree" do you? She's not R&B at all - far more sublime than that. Great voice, great music too. Cheers, - --Chris ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 17:51:07 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Monk's Piano Quip ... > She further reinforces all those "wrong" notes in the > vocal harmony "Tax free ... save me". In the end, > nearly every song on DED is constructed this way. > Which for me, adds up to a sound uniquely Joni > Mitchell ... every bit as innovative as her alternate > guitar tunings. Sure she used 80s vintage synths, but > in a way only she could have. > > I hope I've not simply made the issue more obscure! > > Don Rowe Even though I am not a keyboard player or musician, I really appreciated this analysis. Your statement 'Sure she used 80s vintage synths, but in a way only she could have' is exactly what I was driving at. Thank you, Don. I sometimes feel a bit self-conscious when commenting on the instrumentation of Joni's music since I'm far from an expert on the subject. It's nice to have somebody confirm my thoughts who knows what they're talking about. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 23:34:36 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: A Shout Out to Richard and Marcel,NJC. short Hey all. I'm workin' two jobs and packing for a move this weekend but I want to stop and say thanks to Richard Rice and Marcel Deste for the excellent essays. Really great jobs, gentlemen. "Your mother and I are *so* proud of you." :) Lama ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 23:59:09 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: Consumers and Creators.NJC, Humor alert, Short. Was this aimed at me? Randy Remote said, >> Me too. Perfect people are pretty boring. >> Lama, cackling like an idiot...... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 23:42:41 -0700 From: Michael Paz Subject: The news (NJC) Hi Gang- Well Mikey's baseball team one their playoff game tonight and play the championship game tomorrow night. i am such a proud daddy tonight. I can't wait till tomorrow and I hope they go all the way. I know you moms and dads know what i mean (not to mention you parent wannabes), there is no feeling in the world like this. In other news i got Jonatha's DVD and it is SO wicked good. the audio on it is incredible and I recommend it to all of you Jonatha junkies out there. Julian is turing into a big Jonatha fan as well and I told him he could come see her when she comes back to play on Jukebox live again. I went fishing this weekend with my boy rick and we spent the night out on the Golfo de Mexico and killed em the next morining. lots of White Trout, Channel Mullet (which I had never eaten before) but boy are they good. Can't wait to go again. So many fish, not enough time! That's it! Hope all is well with everyone and catch you online! Damn the JoniChatRoom has been empty lately everytime I check in there ain't nobody home. Peace Michael ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2001 #270 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?