From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2001 #267 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Saturday, June 23 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 267 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. Information on the 4th "Annual" New England JoniFest: http://www.jmdl.com/jfne2001.cfm ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Donald Fagen? ["Mark or Travis" ] RE: Mr. T (NJC) ["Wally Kairuz" ] RE: Mr. T (NJC) ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: Both Jaws Now. [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Re: DJRD - why cut Jericho ? [Bobsart48@aol.com] Re: Mr. T (NJC) [Randy Remote ] Seattle gathering? ["Mark or Travis" ] [none] ["Dave and Beth Fairall" ] Re: DJRD - why cut Jericho ? [dsk ] Don Juan Edits ["Blair Fraipont" ] Season's Greetings, short, NJC ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: David Wilcox /Jonatha Brooke/Rufus Wainwright - vljc [dsk ] Re: DJRD - why cut Jericho ? ["Mark or Travis" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 17:44:58 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Donald Fagen? > <<... and adjust one line: > > "Oh you're a mean old *lady* ...">> > > True, but I don't see Donald being spoiled by fancy white linen and fancy french cologne...might just be me. how about 'clean white lines and fancy French Cognac' instead? Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 22:51:51 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Mr. T (NJC) oh lord!!!! i've just discovered the lyric section!! this is too much! SHRIEKING!!!! - -----Mensaje original----- De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de Les Irvin Enviado el: Viernes, 22 de Junio de 2001 04:24 p.m. Para: joni@smoe.org Asunto: Re: Mr. T (NJC) At 11:53 AM 6/22/2001, Kakki wrote: >I found this site where you can listen to some of Mr. T's famous lines ;-D And of course... one cannot properly surf the web without Mr T'ing your favorite website. Here's the freshly T'd JMDL site: http://firefly.sparse.org/~mrt/cgi-bin/t.cgi?field=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jmdl.com What you talkin' 'bout, fool!?! Les ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 22:49:54 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Mr. T (NJC) les!!!! i'm shrieking so loud the neighbors have called thems crazy cops! fool! that darn wallyK - -----Mensaje original----- De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de Les Irvin Enviado el: Viernes, 22 de Junio de 2001 04:24 p.m. Para: joni@smoe.org Asunto: Re: Mr. T (NJC) At 11:53 AM 6/22/2001, Kakki wrote: >I found this site where you can listen to some of Mr. T's famous lines ;-D And of course... one cannot properly surf the web without Mr T'ing your favorite website. Here's the freshly T'd JMDL site: http://firefly.sparse.org/~mrt/cgi-bin/t.cgi?field=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jmdl.com What you talkin' 'bout, fool!?! Les ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 23:45:14 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: Both Jaws Now. In a message dated 6/22/01 6:11:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, f40rmr1@corn.cso.niu.edu writes: > Her reinterpretation of BSN made the project a welcome treasure in my > home. > > > And in my heart too > rosemjoy@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 23:55:10 EDT From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: DJRD - why cut Jericho ? I wrote to Bob M "I am replying off line so as to avoid irritating others on the list who hold Jericho among their favorites." And after I eventually posted the message to the list, Bob M. replied: "Firstly, Bob S, thanks for bringing your post to the masses...it was much too good to be enjoyed by only me! And I'm really bowled over at your statement here, because to ME Jericho is one the most **mature** love songs ever written! " So, Bob M, it sounds like I should have been at least as worried about ruffling yours feathers as all the others on the list ;-). Seriously, since you are the lyric mavin, I am forced to respectfully reconsider. However, I know this; the lyric disturbs and irritates me. I suspect this is on two levels. First, there is something (are some things) that really bother me about the content and style of the message - perhaps a line by line analysis would increase my insight as to why. Second, I suspect that there is something a little too close to home for me in this song, that I would prefer not to confront - perhaps a visit for a different kind of analysis is in order instead. ;-~ Here is a brief go at the first analysis: 1. "I'll try" appears three times in the song, and I have come to basically agree with those who say that those words are indicators of immaturity. I much prefer "I'll promise" or "I will". Joni says she made a promise to love when it was new, but I would have preferred the promise to be to the the partner, and not to her efforts in the game of love, which sounds more like a promise to herself. 2. She says "keep myself open up to you", implying that she is already open (has no trouble opening up), but has trouble staying open. If she had said "I''ll try to open myself up to you", that could have logically led into "let these walls come tumbling down" - but it sounds like they were already down. This may be a semantic nit to pick, but she repeats it twice later in the song, so I feel entitled to assume it was a deliberate choice of words. Let's give her the benefit of the doubt, and assume she meant that a relationship that seems open for now is not really open for good until the walls are down permanently. 3. "I said it like I finally found the way to keep the good feelings alive - - I said it like it was something to strive for". This couplet sounds to me like she thinks that keeping the good feelings (infatuation ?) alive is the issure rather than developing them further into something deeper and more commited. Also, the word "like" implies that she doubts the words she uttered - - "like I finally found the way (as if she hadn't)...like it was something to strive for (as if it weren't) - and is still not convinced her promise is the way to go. 4. "Approve your self expression". Why should her partner need her approval - isn't the "space" to act and express oneself openly a given in a mature relationship, no approval needed ? (This is not to be confused with approving each act or expression itself.) 5. "I need that too" - is that the space, or the approval ? (refer to "The Same Situation") 6. "I need your confidence, baby, and the gift of your extra time - In turn I'll give you mine". Here, the order matters to me. First, we have her needs (that is backwards thinking in relationships, really). Once she has that, she will return the favor - it is an exchange. Rather, "I'll give you my confidence honey (stop calling me baby), and the gift of my extra time - in turn I'd love to have yours, too ( do it that way, and you will get it). 7. "Sweet darling, it's a rich exchange, it seems to me, it's a warm arrangement" . There, that sounds like a fair trade, doesn't it ? And while I believe that good relationships are warm arrangements - not in the pejorative sense of her devastating, penetrating song of that title from LOTC - it sounds to me like she is trying convince herself or her partner that that is good enough - let's settle, even if we have to pretend a little bit. 8. "Anyone will tell you Just how hard it is to make and keep a friend". A great line - to some other song. What's friendship got to do with it ? ;-) I say that half-jokingly, but hasn't this been a song about love up until now ? And in the next line she excuses the ending of friendships (has she reduced the love to friendship in order to justify walking away from it ?) - either your friend screws you, or you (Joni) are the Judas - when you can no longer pretend. Is she thinking about doing it again - walking out because she is bored, and is not looking for "a warm arrangement" ?. Then she tries to stop herself short of doing it, reminding herself with the repeat of the final verse's chant, and the revelation that staying and working at it rather than bolting is getting easier with the discipline of practice. Are we doing well because of discipline, or are we naturals, do we really feel it ? Maybe that's what's bothering me. Whew. I'm spent. Forget the other analysis. ;-) Bob S. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 21:02:02 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Mr. T (NJC) Holy freakin' guacomole!! It's a Mr T universe! Check out the jmdler profiles! He's there too!! I never imagined my interest in Joni would eventually lead me down this truly frightening and depraved path...... RR Les Irvin wrote: > At 11:53 AM 6/22/2001, Kakki wrote: > >I found this site where you can listen to some of Mr. T's famous lines ;-D > > And of course... one cannot properly surf the web without Mr T'ing your > favorite website. Here's the freshly T'd JMDL site: > http://firefly.sparse.org/~mrt/cgi-bin/t.cgi?field=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jmdl.com > > What you talkin' 'bout, fool!?! > Les ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 19:19:20 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Seattle gathering? Phyliss Ward is going to be in Seattle and is wondering if anyone would in the area would like to meet & greet either on 6/29 or the late afternoon/evening of Saturday July 7 or Sunday July 8. Catherine Turley, would you be up for this? Scott Price, is there any chance we could entice you down from the Peninsula on any of these dates? Any other JMDLers in the Seattle area that have some free time on those dates & would like to get together for dinner or lunch or whatever with Phyliss? Email me offlist if you're interested. Sorry for not marking this njc but I wanted to be sure everybody on both lists sees it. Mark in Seattle (really Shoreline but why be technical?) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 20:13:34 -0500 From: "Dave and Beth Fairall" Subject: [none] Subject: Re: DJRD - why cut Jericho ? Bob, Your detailed analysis is fascinating. I'm struck especially by your comment at the very end: > Are we doing well because of discipline, or are we naturals, do we really > feel it ? Maybe that's what's bothering me. Good question. Jericho is one song I've always wanted to like, and have never been able to. To me it seems self-conscious and stilted and full of good ideas, but without much genuine feeling... very unlike Joni's other songs. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 20:25:40 -0400 From: "Blair Fraipont" Subject: Don Juan Edits Honestly, I don't know why we would even think about editing this album. First of all,if you own a Cd Player, which most of us do, It is easy to fast forward a bit through the Tenth World or Paprika Planes. If we are Record owners, I can understand the need of just having one disc. The other reason why I can't understand why we would cut this album, is that many of us are constantly craving over the only Joni that we have. We all wish there was more (possibly?) We wish she would keep putting out more records, so I don't know why we would want to chop down the branches of this beautiful tree (really corny imitiative Nick Drakesqueness). If anything I would put Paprika Plains at the end of the album. To Me, it could have made a really bombastic and terrific ending. Also, finally, I could never edit any of Jaco's performance let alone any of JOni's lyrics (even as 'un-joni" as some of them may be -(paraphrased quote from a fellow JMDLer). But I am not mad. Just confus-ed. Also, Wild THings Run Fast used to erk the hell out of me, but I honestly appreciate it for what it is, A good pop album, and nothing else. I think the thing that upset me the most (tears rushing out of my ducts) was that alot of the lyrics weren't as thick.. etc etc. Love blairsy NP:New Rhumba- Miles Davis _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 00:44:43 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Season's Greetings, short, NJC "Summer's finally made it. Yeah. It's finally here at last." Bob Seger with apologies to Hell and Wally and all others south of the Equator on this marbled bowling ball Lama Please disregard my previous announcement about a new email account. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 01:02:41 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: David Wilcox /Jonatha Brooke/Rufus Wainwright - vljc Catherine McKay wrote: > I think I see Deb's point, but I also see Alison's. > There is a certain quality in Jonatha's voice (not > always, depends on what she's singing) that sometimes > gets on my nerves. Not exactly whiny, more nasal. Yeah, yeah, exactly, kind of a buzzing in her nose. Whenever I hear it I expect her to go into some full-blown country-music heavy-on-the-nasal-sound singing, which never happens (thank god), but just the thought of it makes hearing the buzz unpleasant. > Anyway, i got over it but every now and then there's a > vocal tic that can be a bit grating. (When she sings, > "My clothes are in your closet", there's something > about those "cl" sounds... Having said that, I love > Jonatha's stuff. I have a couple of her cds and haven't listened enough to get past that nasal sound yet. I do like her energy, though. She's full of feeling and that's a really big deal to me. So... maybe I'll listen again. > There are certain vocalizations that Joni does > sometimes that I'm not crazy about either (blasphemy!) Some of Joni's warbling on her early albums sounds unnatural now, but she deliberately chose to sing that way (and Joni's voice is still pleasing to me even then), which is different than Jonatha's occasional nasal sound that she may not have any control over. > Still, you can't expect everyone to agree on > this kind of thing, and that's fine - why should they? Exactly. How dull that would be! Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 22:31:41 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: 80s Joni > Also, Wild THings Run Fast used to erk the hell out of me, but I honestly > appreciate it for what it is, A good pop album, and nothing else. Some people (not you Blair) have commented on the sound of Joni's 80s albums. Words like 'cheesy' and 'synthesizers' have popped up. It made me reflect back on 80s pop music. When I think of 'cheesy 80s pop' I think of people like Hall & Oats, Kim Karnes, The Human League and Madonna. Then when I consider 'Wild Things Run Fast', 'Dog Eat Dog' and 'Chalk Mark in a Rain Storm' I find little or no resemblance in those records to Hall & Oats or any of those others that I mentioned before. There was also some of what I would consider very good pop music in the 80s. The Eurythmics come to mind. Joni's 80s records don't sound like them to me either. Then there was some truly interesting stuff that had real substance to it that came out in the 80s. The Police did 'Ghost in the Machine' that had a lot of synth work on it. They also put out a record called 'Synchronicity' that had some great writing and production. Talking Heads released 'Remain in Light' and 'Speaking in Tongues.' The Pretenders released at least 2 great records in the 80s. But quite frankly Joni's stuff from the same period doesn't really make me think of those artists either. Joni may have chosen some of the instruments & musicians that were prevalent in 80s music but to my ears she made them sound like something uniquely her own. Weren't the acoustic guitar and piano the instruments of choice for singer/songwriters in the late 60s and early 70s? I guess where you rank the 80s albums in her overall output is all a matter of personal taste. Depends on what kind of music you tend to gravitate to. But I don't think any of those records deserves to be dismissed as 'cheesy' or 'failed attempts at 80s style pop.' There's far too much going on in them. And Blair, although I would have to agree that lyrically WTRF is no Hejira, I still don't think you could call it lightweight. 'Moon at the Window' has some great lyrics. So does 'Man to Man' and there are some great lines in the title track as well. And her re-working of Corinthians in 'Love' is wondrous indeed. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 23:33:56 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: DJRD - why cut Jericho ? > 1. "I'll try" appears three times in the song, and I have come to > basically agree with those who say that those words are indicators of > immaturity. I much prefer "I'll promise" or "I will". I think the choice of the word 'try' is very deliberate. I don't think sustaining the positive aspects of relationships is easy for Joni. I think she has to honestly 'try' and this song is a reminder to herself of both the things she needs to work to accomplish and also the things she needs to be wary of and try to avoid. > 2. She says "keep myself open up to you", implying that she is already > open (has no trouble opening up), but has trouble staying open. I don't necessarily see an implication that she has no trouble opening up although considering the song 'Talk to Me' you might be right. Maybe she has a tendency to open up too much to begin with and then retreats back behind those walls when she begins to feel vulnerable and uncertain of the other person's feelings towards her. > > 3. "I said it like I finally found the way to keep the good feelings alive > - I said it like it was something to strive for". This couplet sounds to me > like she thinks that keeping the good feelings (infatuation ?) alive is the > issure rather than developing them further into something deeper and more > commited. Do 'good feelings' mean nothing more than infatuation? I don't think that's what she's saying at all. She's talking about something more here. I think of this song as a more mature version of 'All I Want.' Really isn't she saying 'all I really really want our love to do is to bring out the best in me and in you too' but in different words with a more analytical approach to the theme? There is also a hint of the negative and the difficulty she has stepping outside of herself in the earlier song. 'I hate you some, I hate you some/I love you some/I love you when I forget about me' and 'Do you see/do you see how you hurt me baby?/So I hurt you too/and then we both get so blue'. It also seems to me that she's still encountering some of these same difficulties as recently as 'Taming the Tiger'. On 'Stay in Touch' she says 'during times like these/the wise are influential/they can bear the imperfections/they can keep the harmony/no doubt about it/no doubt that's essential/*no doubt that's always been a tricky one for me*' This woman has a hyper-analytical mind and a rather critical bent to her nature. I don't think unconditional love comes naturally to her or at least not easily. > > 4. "Approve your self expression". Why should her partner need her > approval - isn't the "space" to act and express oneself openly a given in a > mature relationship, no approval needed ? (This is not to be confused with > approving each act or expression itself.) > > 5. "I need that too" - is that the space, or the approval ? (refer to "The > Same Situation") > > 6. "I need your confidence, baby, and the gift of your extra time - In > turn I'll give you mine". Here, the order matters to me. First, we have her > needs (that is backwards thinking in relationships, really). Once she has > that, she will return the favor - it is an exchange. Rather, "I'll give you > my confidence honey (stop calling me baby), and the gift of my extra time - > in turn I'd love to have yours, too ( do it that way, and you will get it). I think she's talking about being supportive of one another here. Nothing more, nothing less. > > 7. "Sweet darling, it's a rich exchange, it seems to me, it's a warm > arrangement" . There, that sounds like a fair trade, doesn't it ? And while I > believe that good relationships are warm arrangements - not in the pejorative > sense of her devastating, penetrating song of that title from LOTC - it > sounds to me like she is trying convince herself or her partner that that is > good enough - let's settle, even if we have to pretend a little bit. I don't get that at all. I think she's setting goals for herself. I don't see where she's talking about pretending about anything except where she talks about 'when you just can no longer pretend/ that you're getting what you need'. In that line she's talking about giving up on a dying relationship, not saying that settling or pretending is good enough to sustain one. > > 8. "Anyone will tell you Just how hard it is to make and keep a friend". A > great line - to some other song. What's friendship got to do with it ? ;-) > I say that half-jokingly, but hasn't this been a song about love up until now > ? In truly good and lasting romantic relationships aren't the partners usually good friends to one another as well as lovers? Maybe there is some fear here that the friendship aspect of this relationship will dissipate if the romantic part doesn't work out. Joni is still friends with an astonishing percentage of her ex-lovers. Seems that aspect of it is pretty important to her. And why shouldn't it be? And in the next line she excuses the ending of friendships (has she reduced > the love to friendship in order to justify walking away from it ?) - either > your friend screws you, or you (Joni) are the Judas - when you can no longer > pretend. Is she thinking about doing it again - walking out because she is > bored, and is not looking for "a warm arrangement" ?. I don't think so. I think she's just going through possibilities in her head and reflecting back on her own past experiences. Then she tries to stop > herself short of doing it, reminding herself with the repeat of the final > verse's chant, and the revelation that staying and working at it rather than > bolting is getting easier with the discipline of practice. > > Are we doing well because of discipline, or are we naturals, do we really > feel it ? I don't think it's a matter of really feeling it. Anybody can fall in love and really feel it. That's the easy part. Sustaining a relationship is an entirely different matter. And no, I don't think it comes easily or naturally to Joni. In case you couldn't tell, I like this song and it was the version on DJRD that really made me appreciate it. I think it fits in quite naturally after 'Talk to Me' which I've always felt was about somebody she had just met or was just getting to know. When she starts to develop feelings for 'Mr. Mystery' she reflects back and reminds herself of her past mistakes and what she needs to do if she wants the budding relationship to succeed. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2001 #267 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?