From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2001 #242 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Sunday, June 3 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 242 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. Information on the 4th "Annual" New England JoniFest: http://www.jmdl.com/jfne2001.cfm The Joni Chat Room: http://www.jmdl.com/chat.cfm ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- activism njc ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: chrissy and carli and joni njc [PMcfad@aol.com] RE: chrissy and carli and joni njc ["Wally Kairuz" ] (no subject) [RedDirtRoad1@aol.com] Whoops! (NJC) [RedDirtRoad1@aol.com] Re: (no subject) [catman ] Re: feminism etc NJC [catman ] Re: feminism etc NJC [catman ] Re: feminism/wickedness/compassion NJC ["Brenda J. Walker" ] NJC from Hunter Thompson ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: feminism/wickedness/compassion NJC [catman ] Re: feminism/wickedness/compassion NJC (md) [MDESTE1@aol.com] Re: feminism etc NJC [RedDirtRoad1@aol.com] Re: feminism etc NJC [catman ] Re: feminism etc NJC [catman ] Genital Mutilation - absolutely NJC [susan+rick ] Re: Genital Mutilation - absolutely NJC [catman ] Re: chrissy and carli and joni njc [JRMCo1@aol.com] Rock Troubadours... [JRMCo1@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 00:13:10 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: activism njc Good points Brenda, as an artist, activism takes a different form than political activism. But it is still activism... Brenda,>>> n.p. Glen Phillips - Men Just Leave<<< He's a local boy. He tries out his solo stuff here a lot. He just did a show with Nickel Creek. It was wonderful....How do you like the record? ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 06:23:14 EDT From: PMcfad@aol.com Subject: Re: chrissy and carli and joni njc first, i spent several years living in cleveland ohio and chrissy hinds was very popular there as she's from that area. i heard her on a long interview on the radio and i thought she was a huge asshole. arrogant. self absorbed. abusive to the interviewer. she was so hostile, i was left thinking, why are you doing this? why not just decline the interview? her behavior was beyond inappropriate and had become unacceptable. so the story about the fez did not surprise me. but then when the quesion came up about joni and carly fighting, .... > jan gyn wrote: > > > Who would you pick in a fight between Joni and Carly? > > -jan > > i'd pick joni. cause she's a yahoo mother canucker and i think poor carly wouldn't know what hit her. or kicked her. pat ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 07:59:26 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: chrissy and carli and joni njc ayup...or else ask former central-american housekeeper. wallyK ....>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> i'd pick joni. cause she's a yahoo mother canucker and i think poor carly wouldn't know what hit her. or kicked her. pat ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 09:12:42 -0500 From: "kerry" Subject: feminism etc NJC Brenda wrote: >>After all, who cares what we call ourselves as long as we do what moves >>our hearts, minds and souls? Right! There is such a variation of thought behind any label: Christian, feminist, conservative, vegetarian, .....whatever. What's important is good, healthy discussion and aspiring to "live" what you believe in. Catman wrote: > castration will not stop a man getting an erection not will it prevent > violent acts of sexual abuse. if it did, i'd say do it. Also, isn't rape based on power and violence, not necessarily sex? A castrated man would probably express his anger and violence some other way. Kerry ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 10:33:20 EDT From: RedDirtRoad1@aol.com Subject: (no subject) catman wrote: >> By pointing thes things out it does not mean I disagree with Chryssie-just that it isn't [only] females who get mutilated and that castration is not the answer. Life without parole for suxal abusers works. << Hi, I'm brand new here; I've been lurking for just a couple of weeks. I'm sure this is an *awful* place to get started but I can't help myself sometimes. Life without parole is barbaric too. (I agree with you, though, that circumcision is culturally accepted mutilation.) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 10:39:23 EDT From: RedDirtRoad1@aol.com Subject: Whoops! (NJC) My first post and I already screwed up - no subject line. So sorry!! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 16:27:27 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: (no subject) > Life without parole is barbaric too. I don't agree. Sexual abuse is barbaric and leaves horiffic and permanent scars. People who commit such acts, if convicted, should never be allowed the opportunity to do so again. I am not of the school that thinks prison should be a place of abuse and ill treatment, tho i know it is. That doesn't solve anything and makes the gaolers inhuman. However, such as it is, life without parole for such people is better than just one more abusee whose soul and mind are affected for the worse the whole of their lives. No one, but no one has the knowledge to judge that these people will not abuse again. Tima and time again that has been proved beyond doubt. they get let out and do do it again and again. bw colin > (I agree with you, though, that > circumcision is culturally accepted mutilation.) - -- bw colin BRO GC, 950i 940,864, 260, 890,Silver 830 and 270, Passap 6000 Duo80 colin@tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk http://www.geocities.com/tantra_apso/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 16:29:24 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: feminism etc NJC kerry wrote: > Brenda wrote: > >>After all, who cares what we call ourselves as long as we do what moves > >>our hearts, minds and souls? > > Right! There is such a variation of thought behind any label: Christian, > feminist, conservative, vegetarian, .....whatever. What's important is > good, healthy discussion and aspiring to "live" what you believe in. > > Catman wrote: > > castration will not stop a man getting an erection not will it prevent > > violent acts of sexual abuse. if it did, i'd say do it. > > Also, isn't rape based on power and violence, not necessarily sex? yep. > A > castrated man would probably express his anger and violence some other way. probably tho castration would not stop erections. chemical castration would but as you point out, it wouldn't stop the abuse. Far better for the penalty to be mandatory life and for it to mean life. > > > Kerry - -- bw colin BRO GC, 950i 940,864, 260, 890,Silver 830 and 270, Passap 6000 Duo80 colin@tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk http://www.geocities.com/tantra_apso/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 16:31:00 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: feminism etc NJC kerry wrote: > Brenda wrote: > >>After all, who cares what we call ourselves as long as we do what moves > >>our hearts, minds and souls? well yes, sort of but what moves some people is just wickedness. > > > Right! There is such a variation of thought behind any label: Christian, > feminist, conservative, vegetarian, .....whatever. too right! whcih is why i prefer to be label-less! > What's important is > good, healthy discussion and aspiring to "live" what you believe in. > > Catman wrote: > > castration will not stop a man getting an erection not will it prevent > > violent acts of sexual abuse. if it did, i'd say do it. > > Also, isn't rape based on power and violence, not necessarily sex? A > castrated man would probably express his anger and violence some other way. > > Kerry - -- bw colin BRO GC, 950i 940,864, 260, 890,Silver 830 and 270, Passap 6000 Duo80 colin@tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk http://www.geocities.com/tantra_apso/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 09:35:12 -0700 From: "Brenda J. Walker" Subject: Re: feminism/wickedness/compassion NJC > > > Brenda wrote: > > >>After all, who cares what we call ourselves as long as we do what moves > > >>our hearts, minds and souls? to which catman wrote: > well yes, sort of but what moves some people is just wickedness. > To that, I reply with one of my favorite quotes: In the alchemy of man's soul almost all noble attributes- courage, honor, love, hope, faith, duty, loyalty, and so on- can be transmuted into ruthlessness. Compassion alone stands apart from the continuous traffic between good and evil proceeding within us. Compassion is the antitoxin of the soul: where there is compassion, even the most poisonous impulses remain relatively harmless. - - Eric Hoffer I also believe that wickedness is often in the eye of the beholder. Some people think it's wicked for one man to sleep with another man. In the American South in 1968, it was wicked for a black teenage girl to kiss a white teenage boy. Some think it's wicked for a woman to wear pants. I fully realize that we can take off into a discussion of subjectivity vs. objectivity and the essence of the true nature of human beings, but...not wanting to necessarily open that can (unless people are interested), I'll amend my statement as such: "After all, who cares what we call ourselves as long as we do what moves our hearts, minds and souls in a spirit of compassion and love." My personal philosophy is that we should strive to show compassion toward those who harm others while thinking they are doing it in a spirit of love and we should seek healing for the planet in the face of evil. Brenda n.p. Rugrats....my 7 year old goddaughter is down for a day at the beach! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 09:38:32 -0700 From: "Brenda J. Walker" Subject: Re: feminism etc NJC kerry wrote: > > What's important is > good, healthy discussion and aspiring to "live" what you believe in. > I agree and I must add that this is probably the only list that I'm on where a discussion like this could happen without flared tempers and flames. It's a beautiful thing. Brenda ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 12:41:30 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: NJC from Hunter Thompson During my (grossly under-paying) day job, we do promotions for radio stations. One of the station managers sent this quote to our COO (who embodies the *REASON* I'm underpaid). Dr. Thompson is most widely known as the Rolling Stone gonzo journalist who embraced guns, Harleys, politics, cigarette holders, and drugs before they were cool. * * * * * * "The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." - -- Hunter S. Thompson * * * * * * Favorite scene from "Where The Buffalo Roam" about Thompson: Thompson covering then President Nixon, settles into the press plane. His seat mate is a severely stressed-out journalist with a headache. Thompson, shaking pills out of his pocket, recommends "a blue one". "Really, is it okay?" asks his seatmate. "Oh, yah. It's okay. I'm a doctor," says Hunter, who holds a PhD in Poly Sci. "Are you sure?" asks his seatmate, gulping down the still unidentified pill. Thompson deadpans: "Oh, sure. I've never had any complaints....... Not from the *blue* ones." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 18:15:55 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: feminism/wickedness/compassion NJC > In the alchemy of man's soul almost all noble attributes- courage, > honor, love, hope, faith, duty, loyalty, and so on- can be transmuted > into ruthlessness. Compassion alone stands apart from the continuous > traffic between good and evil proceeding within us. Compassion is the > antitoxin of the soul: where there is compassion, even the most > poisonous impulses remain relatively harmless. > > - Eric Hoffer never read this before. thank you. > > > I also believe that wickedness is often in the eye of the beholder. > Some people think it's wicked for one man to sleep with another man. In > the American South in 1968, it was wicked for a black teenage girl to > kiss a white teenage boy. Some think it's wicked for a woman to wear > pants. of course you are right. I had those sort of people in mind in my prevoius response rather than the serial killers etc as I see that as sickness and damage. > > > I fully realize that we can take off into a discussion of subjectivity > vs. objectivity and the essence of the true nature of human beings, > but...not wanting to necessarily open that can (unless people are > interested), I'll amend my statement as such: > > "After all, who cares what we call ourselves as long as we do what moves > our hearts, minds and souls in a spirit of compassion and love." > > My personal philosophy is that we should strive to show compassion > toward those who harm others while thinking they are doing it in a > spirit of love and we should seek healing for the planet in the face of > evil. once again, I agree with you. > > > Brenda > > n.p. Rugrats....my 7 year old goddaughter is down for a day at the > beach! - -- bw colin BRO GC, 950i 940,864, 260, 890,Silver 830 and 270, Passap 6000 Duo80 colin@tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk http://www.geocities.com/tantra_apso/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 13:36:21 -0400 From: mags Subject: Re: feminism etc NJC > Catman wrote: > > castration will not stop a man getting an erection >> Brian and I were just having a talk about this thread and feel the need to contribute. Not to be confrontational Colin, however, it we think that castration will prevent a man from attaining an erection and that as Kerry says...a castrated man will find another outlet for his violence. > and Kerry wrote: > > <> yes, rape certainly is about wielding power and contol over a vulnerable person, yes indeed. .. and i think that sex and even the very threat of sex is used as a way of making an assault even more horrific in my humble opinion. when a person is raped, there is nothing left. *magsnbrei* ...both of us have a real hard time staying out of this discussion. and p.s.....for the record, Brian says he celebrates the fact that he is circumcised. > - -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- _~O / /\_, ___/\ /_ - ----------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 14:07:36 EDT From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: feminism/wickedness/compassion NJC (md) In a message dated 6/2/01 10:18:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time, colin@tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk writes: - Eric Hoffer Colin provides Eric Hofers quote. I provide I believe Paul Greenbergs. "The persistent temptation of our age is to give way to our culture's concept of "tolerance" ... and allow evil to be called good, and good, evil, and to let stand unchallenged those deceptions." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 14:26:01 EDT From: RedDirtRoad1@aol.com Subject: Re: feminism etc NJC At 11:27 AM 06/02/2001, you wrote: >> Life without parole is barbaric too. > >I don't agree. Sexual abuse is barbaric and leaves horiffic and permanent scars. People who commit such acts, if convicted, should never be allowed the opportunity to do so again. < Are you saying that it is *not* inhumane to lock someone in an 8x8 foot cell for life, or that its cruelty is justified? Are you wanting to punish the person, or protect society? Neither has been proven to be achieved through punishment. mags wrote: > > when a person is raped, there is nothing left. I was raped, by three people for eight hours. I am a changed person, though healthier as the years go on, but there has always been something left of me. And still, I feel for the humanity of my rapists--I wouldn't want them tortured as I was--and I feel that a societal solution is what we need to look for. Prisoners, even lifers, have "conjugal visits," children, familles, parents, cultures (not to mention prison culture itself) that breeds further violence. Locking someone away is not only just as inhumane as the act the person committed (why is it ok for the government to be inhumane?), but does nothing to stop *all* the people who will grow up to be criminals. Treating people inhumanely instigates and propagates further violence. We have more and more prisoners and more and more criminals every year. Prison doesn't work. There are experimental prisons that have had some good results - surprisingly, the military style prisons have a very huge success rate. Imo, we need to work to eradicate the problem and not lock away the "undesirable" people, only to turn them, their familles and culture into more angry and more violent people. Take a violent person and treat him like an animal, deprive all his senses and you will get a "worse," more violent, person. And his contact with his family and culture magnifies the very problem you are trying to eradicate. Plus, it is downright cruel - and we have no more right to be cruel to another person than he has to be to us. I think that having been raped, I am less likely to want to see another person suffer. Something turned these people into this and I'd hate to support a program that makes them worse (feel subjectively worse and behave objectively more violent). I want to see improvement - and on a far greater scale than the person above wrote about saving the person the convicted rapist may rape. I want to see an end to criminal behavior and mental illness, and locking up the caught/convicted rapist will not do this. Also, remember that "treatment" (like punishment) isn't only for that individual but for future generations. The goal is far more global than protecting one possible victim. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 21:30:14 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: feminism etc NJC > Are you saying that it is *not* inhumane to lock someone in an 8x8 foot cell > for life, or that its cruelty is justified? Are you wanting to punish the > person, or protect society? Neither has been proven to be achieved through > punishment. 'People who commit such acts, if convicted, should never be allowed the opportunity to do so again. I am not of the school that thinks prison should be a place of abuse and ill treatment, tho i know it is. That doesn't solve anything and makes the gaolers inhuman.' i think you possibly missed the above in my last letter. > > > > > > > Take a violent person and treat him > like an animal, deprive all his senses and you will get a "worse," more > violent, person. And his contact with his family and culture magnifies the > very problem you are trying to eradicate. Plus, it is downright cruel - and > we have no more right to be cruel to another person than he has to be to us. I certainly agree with that. I made that clear, so I thought, in my previous post. Treating such people with contmpt and cruelty will solve nothing. > > > I think that having been raped, I am less likely to want to see another > person suffer. Like you, I have experienced rape, amongst other forms of violence, only I was a child and it happened regularly over a period of years. Like you, my experience was different to that of Mags, there was somthing left but it took 38 years to find it buried under all that crap. Punishment in these instants won't work. Venting our rage and feeling for revenge will only make the matter worse(tho venting can be done in a safe productivde way which holds no danger to anyone including the ventor). In fact i think punishment probably doesn't work at all. However, whiclt i agree that the present ways of dealing with 'criminals' is inhuamne and make everything worse, I still hold to the belief that people who commit the croimes we are discussing MUST be permantly kept away from those that may continue to harm. Sexual abusers are notorious for not being able toc ahnge, for even not being able to see their wrong doing. I feel the lives of children are far too important to mess with and to let abusers go,a fter short sentences, sends the wrong message to society, to the abuser and most of all to the abusee-the abusee feels they are unimportant and what happened to them was not 'that bad'. I applaud your desire to make this world a better place, that is my desire also. I act accordingly. However, the place to start, to prevent these people from being, is to PROTECT AND LOVE CHILDREN!!!!!! It is children who grow up to be these sad people. it is children who grow up commit these vile crimes and although not all abusees turn out to be abusers it IS the cause. Damaged chuildren grow up to be damaged adults. Damaged adults commit crime. Damaged children often can't feel. Severe damage prevents a person feeling empathy. Lack of empathy is one reason why such vile acts can be committed. forced therapy does not work. NO ONE can make a person accpet their problems. Like the only person who can do somehting about their alchoholism is the person with the problem and they have to admit it themselves. It cannot be forced upon them.. Like you, I destest the way we run the world. I detest the fact that children are not treausred by society. For those that think they are, tell me how so many are murdered everyday? tell me why people turn a blind eye to what is going on next door, up the street, to that bruised child at school? It sooo much easier to pretend all is okay. And then get mad when adutls to bad things and lock them up otr worse kill them. we have the society we deserve. Until each of us is willing to tkae responsibilty for ourselves, is willing to get honest, is willing to get honest, we will conti ue to have the sort of world we have. The abuse of children does not happen without collusion of friends, neighbours, teachers, medicos, church, law enforcement ect. I do not suggest the collusion is conciouis and deliberate, but the result, dead or damaged children, is the same. As much as i detest the prison system and it's furtherence of pain and depravity, I am not prepared to let such abusers be free, ever, to continue the damage we ALL suffer from. I don't feel prisons need to be hell holes, nor do i think they should be. I see no good at all in mistreating people whatever they have done. That is a far cry tho from allowing people to do whatever they wish to do. If I allow my compassion for such people to cloud my thinking,as people do all the time, and more damge results, then i will be guilty too. In the last few motnhs, sevreral cases of children who have been murdered by their gaurdians have been in the news. In each case, the social workers involved were more itnerested inthe abusers being treate with compassion and understanding than in the ssfaety of the said children. Thos children paid for this with horrendous lives and deaths. this is NOT a rare occurance but a common one. in our country, UK, of about 55mill people, 3 children a week are killed thru neglect and torture by their parents. Many many, many more survive the abuse they suffere. Most sexual abuse happens at home yet we concentrate upon 'stranger danger'! if we don't stop the abuse of chuldren, if we don't learn to love and chrish them as individuals, we will continue to live in the sad world we live in. bw colin > > remember that "treatment" (like punishment) isn't only for that individual > but for future generations. The goal is far more global than protecting one > possible victim. - -- bw colin BRO GC, 950i 940,864, 260, 890,Silver 830 and 270, Passap 6000 Duo80 colin@tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk http://www.geocities.com/tantra_apso/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 21:35:46 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: feminism etc NJC mags wrote: > > Catman wrote: > > > castration will not stop a man getting an erection >> > > Brian and I were just having a talk about this thread and feel the need to > contribute. Not to be confrontational Colin, however, it we think that > castration will prevent a man from attaining an erection it doesn't. > and that as Kerry > says...a castrated man will find another outlet for his violence. true. > > > > > > > p.s.....for the record, Brian says he celebrates the fact that he is > circumcised. there is a big difference in a grown man celebrating this and a child being mutilated. The first is to do with choice. the second is to do with power and it's misuse. bw colin ps. did Bri tell you I called to enquire after you? Are you okay now? > > > > > > -- > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > _~O > / /\_, > ___/\ > /_ > ----------------------------------------- - -- bw colin BRO GC, 950i 940,864, 260, 890,Silver 830 and 270, Passap 6000 Duo80 colin@tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk http://www.geocities.com/tantra_apso/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 15:12:30 -0700 From: susan+rick Subject: Genital Mutilation - absolutely NJC Oh, the far-reaching Joni Discussion List! I have to step in here with a comment regarding the comparison of male and female circumcision. It's true that male circumcision is largely an unnecessary procedure, often performed without anaesthetic, and may produce some amount of local insensitivity but I think it is important for people to realize the difference in *degree* between male and female genital mutilation. The two operations are so far apart in severity that it is like comparing caning to flogging around the fleet. As well, female genital mutilation is most often performed for the benefit of the future husband of the girl being mutilated. It is intended to make her more "attractive" and keep her faithful, either by making sexual activity unpleasant or even impossible without further surgical procedures. If anyone is interested in further reading go to http://www.fgmnetwork.org/intro/fgmintro.html Ranger Rick ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 23:44:53 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Genital Mutilation - absolutely NJC I think most people do realise there is a difference in severity. However both are wrong and one is not less wrong than the other. susan+rick wrote: > Oh, the far-reaching Joni Discussion List! I have to step in here with a > comment regarding the comparison of male and female circumcision. > > It's true that male circumcision is largely an unnecessary procedure, often > performed without anaesthetic, and may produce some amount of local > insensitivity but I think it is important for people to realize the > difference in *degree* between male and female genital mutilation. The two > operations are so far apart in severity that it is like comparing caning to > flogging around the fleet. As well, female genital mutilation is most often > performed for the benefit of the future husband of the girl being mutilated. > It is intended to make her more "attractive" and keep her faithful, either > by making sexual activity unpleasant or even impossible without further > surgical procedures. > > If anyone is interested in further reading go to > http://www.fgmnetwork.org/intro/fgmintro.html > > Ranger Rick - -- bw colin BRO GC, 950i 940,864, 260, 890,Silver 830 and 270, Passap 6000 Duo80 colin@tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk http://www.geocities.com/tantra_apso/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 15:42:15 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: chrissy and carli and joni njc > first, i spent several years living in cleveland ohio and chrissy hinds was > very popular there as she's from that area. i heard her on a long interview > on the radio and i thought she was a huge asshole. arrogant. self absorbed. > abusive to the interviewer. she was so hostile, i was left thinking, why > are you doing this? why not just decline the interview? her behavior was > beyond inappropriate and had become unacceptable. Look at the cover of the first Pretenders album sometime. The woman in that photo definitely has an attitude. Then listen to the music and you *know* the woman has an attitude. When I first heard the Pretenders I was intrigued. In some ways Chrissy made me think of Grace Slick. She was outrageous and had that edge. I liked it. But my favorite Pretenders album is 'Learning to Crawl' which was released after Chrissy had given birth to her first child and I think the reason I liked it was because, although the toughness & the edge were still there, she was also showing some vulnerability and a softer side. The song that she sings to her daughter that says something about 'show me the meaning of the word' is one of the most revealing things she's done I think. I really think that tough, arrogant exterior is an elaborate front & defense that conceals a sensitive, vulnerable and disillusioned soul. That combination has produced some wonderful music. Show me the meaning of the word Show me the meaning of the word Cause I've heard so much about it They say you can't live without it Welcome to the human race With its wars, disease and brutality You with your innocence and grace Restore some pride and dignity To a world in decline Welcome to a special place In a heart of stone that's cold & gray You with your angel face Keep the despair at bay Send it away and Show me the meaning of the word Show me the meaning of the word Cause I've heard so much about it They say you can't live without Love I want love Love I want love Welcome here from outer space The Milky Way still in your eyes You found yourself a hopeless case One who's seeking perfection on earth Or some kind of rebirth so Show me the meaning of the word Show me the meaning of the word Cause I've heard so much about it I can't live without it I don't wanna live without Love I want love Love I want love Love Meaning so the story about the fez > did not surprise me. My initial reaction when I first read about Chrissy & Carly's little interaction at Joni's performance at the Fez was to laugh. Thinking about these two women and the personalities they project made the whole incident seem terribly comic to me. But it's a wonder Chrissy didn't do serious bodily harm to Carly if Chrissy is indeed the rough & tough person she 'pretends' to be. I did think it was cool that Chrissy was so appreciative of Joni as an artist but if she was being rowdy and yelling during the performance, I have to sympathize with Carly for telling her to shut up. I don't know, but I've always thought Chrissy's attitude was all a part of the whole punk/new wave sensibility. The image went along with the music and some of it was great music. What's behind the image is probably a very different story as the lyrics I typed out would seem to attest. but then when the question came up about joni and carly > fighting, .... > > > jan gyn wrote: > > > > > Who would you pick in a fight between Joni and Carly? > > > -jan Somebody should ask JT. If anybody would know, he would! Mark in Seattle (where Travis & I have adopted another kitten) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 11:21:49 +1200 From: "hell" Subject: Re: violent offenders - NJC Colin wrote: > I don't agree. Sexual abuse is barbaric and leaves horiffic and permanent scars. > People who commit such acts, if convicted, should never be allowed the > opportunity to do so again. I am not of the school that thinks prison should be a > place of abuse and ill treatment, tho i know it is. That doesn't solve anything > and makes the gaolers inhuman. However, such as it is, life without parole for > such people is better than just one more abusee whose soul and mind are affected > for the worse the whole of their lives. No one, but no one has the knowledge to > judge that these people will not abuse again. Tima and time again that has been > proved beyond doubt. they get let out and do do it again and again. The telling point for me is something John Douglas (ex-FBI profiler, and responsible for apprehending hundred's of criminals) said in his book in an interview with Ed Kemper (who murdered his grandparents as a child, then went on to be one of the more "notorious" serial rapists/killers, including his own mother, who he beheaded). Ed actually said that he should never be let out of prison, because he knows he would re-offend. Being in prison may not be ideal, but he knows that being there is safer for society because the opportunity to rape and murder women is not available to him. He is an intelligent man, despite his crimes, and has enough self-awareness to realise that it's his only option. Another horrifying case I heard of concerns another serial killer/rapist, this time of children. Apparently he saw himself on "America's Most Wanted", and raced out and raped and killed another child, since he knew that he would soon be caught. Personally, I see absolutely no reason why this monster (my word) should not be removed from society for all time. Other violent offenders like this have admitted that they get as much "pleasure" out of re-living the crime in their heads, and John Douglas has said that a lot of them were only too happy to be interviewed, because they would be able to discuss their crimes in detail once more, and he said it was obvious it was the only reason they agreed to talk to him. Another point he makes is that most of these people are of a high intelligence, and given the opportunity for parole, will know exactly what to tell the parole board and the psychologists assigned to them, in order to make them think they are "reformed". It is in their interests to appear to be rehabilitated - for most of them, killing etc. is not something they can control, and given the opportunity will waste no time in finding another victim. I'm sorry, but in my view, a life sentence should be just that - a LIFE sentence. Hardly a tiny percentage of the pain and suffering these people cause their victims. Hell ____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Hell's Personal Photo Page: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/main/personal.htm Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://www.nbls.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 00:37:34 EDT From: JRMCo1@aol.com Subject: Re: chrissy and carli and joni njc Mark writes: <> My turn to split hairs, Mark. It's "Fez." Not "the" Fez...just Fez. ;-) It's a very small room and I too laughed as I pictured what a scene Chrissy must've made at Joni's performance when Alison, Jeff and I were there to see Julia Fordham last October. Thank you for the song. I didn't know it was about Chrissy's daughter. Sweet. - -Julius ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 02:02:07 EDT From: JRMCo1@aol.com Subject: Rock Troubadours... _Rock Troubadours: Conversations on the Art and Craft of Songwriting with Jerry Garcia, Ani DiFranco, Dave Matthews, Joni Mitchell, Paul Simon, and More_ Just wondering if anyone on list has read this book, which came out in December 2000? Sounds intriguing. I'm would certainly be interested in hearing what Joni had to say on the subject. - -Julius ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2001 #242 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?