From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2001 #233 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Friday, May 25 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 233 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. Information on the 4th "Annual" New England JoniFest: http://www.jmdl.com/jfne2001.cfm The Joni Chat Room: http://www.jmdl.com/chat.cfm ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: S&L DVD ["Jamie Zubairi" ] Re: S&L DVD ["Jamie Zubairi" ] RE: S&L DVD ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: may 23!!!!!!!!!!!!!! njc ["hell" ] Re: chelsea morning/same situation ["hell" ] Re: that damn joni - long (sorry) and pretty much NJC ["hell" ] Re: that damn joni - long (sorry) and pretty much NJC (md) [MDESTE1@aol.c] NJCRe: that damn joni - long (sorry) and pretty much NJC [catman ] re:Elvis & Sophie (NJC) ["c Karma" ] Nice Joni article from a Penn State website [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: joni the raging feminist njc [mags ] What if God...(NJC) [Steve Dulson ] Re: Nice Joni article from a Penn State website [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: joni the raging feminist njc [catman ] Re: chelsea morning/same situation(sjc) ["blonde in the bleachers" ] Re: S&L DVD, the %.1 mystery solved [Catherine McKay ] RE: S&L DVD [Catherine McKay ] Re: S&L DVD, the %.1 mystery solved [Jerry Notaro ] Re: NJCRe: that damn joni - long (sorry) and pretty much NJC [Vince Lavie] Re: NJCRe: that damn joni - long (sorry) and pretty much NJC [catman ] Re: Stereotyping NJC ["hell" ] Re: joni the raging feminist njc ["hell" ] J L'H mentioned in Q magazine's greatest album covers issue ["C.A. Starke] Re: joni/feminism/Chrissie Hynde and a Blue Heron (VLJC) ["Brenda J. Walk] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 08:30:00 +0100 From: "Jamie Zubairi" Subject: Re: S&L DVD I got mine for my birthday last year. Having never seen it before, I thought itwas an amazing show. Jaco's solo (deleted from the album) is pretty astounding! My brother got it from audiophileimports.com Happy watching Zoob - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Catherine McKay" To: "Vince Lavieri" ; "joni" Sent: 24 May 2001 03:32 Subject: Re: S&L DVD > --- Vince Lavieri wrote: > > Today amazon alerted me that my dvd on S&L has been > > shipped! > > > > So it is finally out of whatever limbo it was in and > > I will post about > > it when it comes! > > > > (the Rev) Vince > > I ordered through CDNow - and mine also shipped today. > Wonder who'll get theirs first? Probably you because > you're not an alien like me. > Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 08:38:16 +0100 From: "Jamie Zubairi" Subject: Re: S&L DVD Well, it's not a letterbox, I thought it was but it was only my DVD set up wrong. It's in proper format, which is nice The sound is good but I can only say that it has quite a good separation. There are things in it I have heard on the DVD that I didn't on the HDCD. Mind you, not sure that Joni's voice comes off nicer. It might be a case of too much information to process all at once to define whether it comes out clearly because I'm sat there staring at her face! The S&L song which was my preferred version (to the HOSL) wasn't a standout track, if you know what I mean. But picture and sound, perhaps too much for my little untrained ear to digest! The instruments come out shining. Much Joni Zoob - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Notaro" To: "Catherine McKay" Cc: "Vince Lavieri" ; "joni" Sent: 24 May 2001 13:41 Subject: Re: S&L DVD > Catherine McKay wrote: > > > --- Vince Lavieri wrote: > > > Today amazon alerted me that my dvd on S&L has been > > > shipped! > > > > > > So it is finally out of whatever limbo it was in and > > > I will post about > > > it when it comes! > > > > > > (the Rev) Vince > > > > I ordered through CDNow - and mine also shipped today. > > Wonder who'll get theirs first? Probably you because > > you're not an alien like me. > > Well I hope someone gives us a report on the %.1 sound mix. If it is > good then it will be worth buying. > > Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 04:46:18 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: S&L DVD so this is only on dvd, not vhs? wallyK, i could kick myself for not having taped it one of the million times they showed it on tv in the 80's!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - -----Mensaje original----- De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de Jamie Zubairi Enviado el: Viernes, 25 de Mayo de 2001 04:38 a.m. Para: Jerry Notaro; Catherine McKay CC: Vince Lavieri; joni Asunto: Re: S&L DVD Well, it's not a letterbox, I thought it was but it was only my DVD set up wrong. It's in proper format, which is nice > Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 20:39:58 +1200 From: "hell" Subject: Re: may 23!!!!!!!!!!!!!! njc > T E R R Y > > > > H A P P Y B I R T H D A Y > > > says the BIRTHDAY FAIRY~~~~~~~~!!!!!!!!!! And so do I, just a little bit later than everyone else (as usual). Hope you had a great day. Hell ____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Hell's Personal Photo Page: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/main/personal.htm Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://www.nbls.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 20:47:56 +1200 From: "hell" Subject: Re: chelsea morning/same situation Catherine wrote: > Maybe I misinterpreted what Relayer was trying to say, > but it makes sense to me. Who is going to hear your > prayer when heaven (as a child would see it, up there > in the clouds) has become a place "full of astronauts" > (like the "conquered moon")? So heaven isn't there > anymore. And "God is dead", the Lord is on death row. > There's no heaven, there's no God - so who are you > going to pray to, and who is going to hear? (But she > prays anyway.) For what it's worth, this is exactly how I interpret this song too: she's saying that now we've "de-mystified" the skies by sending so many people up there, we can no longer expect people to believe that heaven is up there somewhere. And I never thought that "the lord on death row" referred to any one person, but rather was said in conjunction with the line about the heavens, ie. if we're saying that heaven is no longer there, how can we be sure there's a god, hence the whole concept of god and heaven getting shaky, eg. on death row. My $0.02. Hell ____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Hell's Personal Photo Page: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/main/personal.htm Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://www.nbls.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 21:35:57 +1200 From: "hell" Subject: Re: that damn joni - long (sorry) and pretty much NJC I've been very interested in all the posts to date on the subject of feminism, and Joni's view on it. I don't think Joni likes being "labelled" - it happens all too often and with a great deal of inaccuracy, so I would imagine any time an interviewer says the words "role model", or tries to categorise her, she immediately goes on the defensive. But feminism is a tricky one. I don't consider myself a "feminist", and before everyone gets upset, let me explain! I don't consider myself a feminist, but I DO consider myself an "equalist". In some circles (including mine), the term feminist has become synonymous with radical, female-chauvanist men-haters, who are not interested in equal rights at all. To be honest, I find these kinds of women distinctly embarrassing, and I've known a fair few. I guess I'm saying that if you redefine the definition, then yes, I am a feminist, but with it's current interpretation, I would never use that label. I'm for equal rights, and equal opportunities. But having said that, I do sincerely believe that there are some things that just can't be done as well by both sexes. To use an example close to my heart, I have had VERY heated discussions with some women, by saying that women will never play cricket as well as men. This is not a sexist remark, it's simply a biological truth. Women's bodies are built differently from men's. We don't have the same skeletal and muscular structure, and therefore we have strengths in different areas. A woman is never going to bowl or bat as well as a man, because she just doesn't have the upper-body strength and skeletal arrangement to allow it. Obviously there are exceptions, and I'm speaking very generally, and maybe some of that difference is just that women don't get the same opportunities in the same sports as men. But that being said, I would die defending a woman's RIGHT to play any sport she wants to - equality has nothing to do with ability, and everything to do with opportunity, and I think that's the biggest difference between an equalist, and what I believe is the prevailing definition of a feminist. By the way, the other great thing about being an equalist is that it's all-encompassing. I can use it for discussions on gender, race, religion, sexual preference, whatever. Pretty cool! I guess what I'm trying to say (in a very roundabout, disorderly fashion) is that in my view, being a feminist (or equalist) is accepting that both sexes have equal value, and have skills and abilities that are equally important, but also about recognising and understanding the differences between the sexes, which doesn't preclude either sex from doing anything outside that "gender role" if they so wish. Colin mentioned that he gets hassled for working in a craft that has long been recognised as "women's work", ie. knitting. This brought back a few memories. When I was about 10, my father bought my mother a knitting machine for her birthday. She had a go, but never really found the time, and by the time she did, Dad had discovered a new toy. He absolutely loved it. It allowed him to be creative, but wasn't too arduous, and gave him an enjoyable escape from thinking about work. He got so prolific, that he was making jackets for a boutique in Auckland's main shopping street - and making a fair amount of money too. But it wasn't without it's drawbacks. Specifically, I got teased unmercifully at school because my father knitted, therefore he must be really "girly" - something I wasn't emotionally equipped to deal with at the time, and I reacted by refusing to wear anything he made, or have anything to do with his hobby, which I'm sure upset him as well. So it's not just women trying to do "masculine" things, but men wanting to make that cross-over as well. Things are getting better as they years go by, but I'll look forward to the day when everyone's an equalist, not just a few. Now that I've stirred the fire, I'll once more don my asbestos underpants and wait for the first flames to hit (and could you make them good, it's cold here tonight). Hell P.S. Marcel, you are definitely qualified to participate in a discussion on feminism, or as I prefer to say, equalism. If it's only the women discussing it, I don't think we're going to get very far - something some of those radical feminists I mentioned earlier fail to realise. ____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Hell's Personal Photo Page: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/main/personal.htm Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://www.nbls.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 21:44:57 +1200 From: "hell" Subject: Absolutely Fabulous - NJC I'm getting excited about the upcoming new series of Ab Fab! I know there are a few fans on the list, so I thought I'd share this link I found the other day. It's of an old interview in the Advocate with Jennifer Saunders and Joanna Lumley - two very funny women! http://members.aol.com/lemfou2/Advocate2.htm Hell ____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Hell's Personal Photo Page: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/main/personal.htm Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://www.nbls.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 07:42:28 EDT From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: that damn joni - long (sorry) and pretty much NJC (md) In a message dated 5/25/2001 2:37:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time, hell@ihug.co.nz writes: > Marcel, you are definitely qualified to participate in a discussion on > feminism, or as I prefer to say, equalism. If it's only the women > discussing it, I don't think we're going to get very far - something some of > those radical feminists I mentioned earlier fail to realise. > ____________________________ > Aye lassie thems dangerous waters for a lad to be sailin' in .....arrrg. marcel ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 13:06:42 +0100 From: catman Subject: NJCRe: that damn joni - long (sorry) and pretty much NJC > Colin mentioned that he gets hassled for working in a craft that has long > been recognised as "women's work", ie. knitting. Strangely enough the reaction i get from men is usually WOW!, they are impressed. Some women just sneer. The better a man is at it, the more the snide remarks! You know, here in this country there are still schools that refuse to allow girls to wear trousers!!!!!! There was a recent court case about it. I was so shcoked. I thought I was hearing a fictionalised news piece from 50 years ago! I am useless when it comes to 'manly' things, like fixing cars(only know how to drive one), doing DIY round the house(John does all that). I am good at cooking and the finances. We have a good system. john earns and I spend it. I recall as child, I liked stuff to do with my hands. I was taught knitting and sewing at school. Loved it. But of course, being an army child, this was frowned upon-actually it meant more beatings(but then any excuse would do for a beating). I was good at woodwork and metal work and loved it but gave those up because it was 'boys' stuff and boys generally didn't accept me as one of them so being in a class full was not my idea of fun. Anyway, I gave up all forms of creaivity for me. Till 84 when i started knitting again but behind closed doors. I cam e out about knitting in 85 and started selling loads of sweaters. I now spend all day every day knitting and sewing and embroidering. I have never felt so happy and satisfied. The one thing I am absolutely terrible at is housecleaning. I have a lady who does come and do. Daphne is here right now getting it all clean tidy. She has been sick 3 weeks so it looked like a tip when she got here. My mother, a wannabe SS officer, was obsessive about cleaning. Ashtrays would get emptied and cleaned before your fag was finished! Washing up was done before you finished eating. One had to sit straight with feet on the ground when watching tv because you might mess up the anti-macassers (sp?) and cushions had to stay put. I have neither cushions or anti whatsits in my home. The hoovering was done very early in the morning no matter who was asleep and again later in the day. On visists we were always dressed up and not allowed to play because we might get dirty. We had to eat everything whether we liked it or not. If refused, it would be force fed down our throats. One soon learned to eat what one was given. Dad insisted shoes were polished till you could see your face. Clothes were pressed so the folds could cut you! He also insisted you did not cry when his fists slammed into you. One learnt to feel nothing. Great defence as a child but not so great as an adult. Adults were to be obeyed and were always right. Hence I was ripe pickings for peodophiles. I was in my late 30's before I knew I hadn't misbehaved. We were told what to think because we were too bad and stupid to have any ideas of our own. God or people would kill us if we were not polite and obedeient. We would get sent away if we were naughty.(I was stupidly terrified of being sent away! Would have been the ebst thing....). i f we dared to have our own thoughts, we were possesd by demons. Doubts was put there by the devil. Questioning anything was wrong and evil and likely to be met with a fisyt or land yoyu in hell when dead. A very reall fear at the time. Freedom to think what one thinks and live how one lives and be who one is, is wonderfull!! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 00:08:42 +1200 From: "hell" Subject: Re: that damn joni - long (sorry) and pretty much NJC (md) I wrote: > > Marcel, you are definitely qualified to participate in a discussion on > > feminism, or as I prefer to say, equalism. If it's only the women > > discussing it, I don't think we're going to get very far - something some of > > those radical feminists I mentioned earlier fail to realise. To which Marcel replied: > Aye lassie thems dangerous waters for a lad to be sailin' in .....arrrg. And now that I've got my urge to quote the Captain from Blackadder under control (ignore this if you don't know what I'm talking about - "aha, you have a woman's purse, my Lord!") I'll simply say: If we (by we, I mean women) don't include men in a discussion about equality and feminism, etc. then wouldn't we be incredibly hypocritical, and effectively be negating the very thing we're trying to defend? Hell ____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Hell's Personal Photo Page: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/main/personal.htm Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://www.nbls.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 08:52:11 EDT From: Gertus@aol.com Subject: Ambidextrous?(NJC) I watched a couple of documentaries on Bob Dylan which were shown on BBC Knowledge last night to mark the great man's 60th birthday. The one which was made during the "Hearts of Fire" tour in '86 showed him sketching his interviewer during most of the interview at the end and I noticed he was right-handed. Later, however, he was shown signing autographs left-handed. Is this a sign of true genius, I wonder? Jacky (very right-handed) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 08:14:15 -0500 From: Kate Subject: joni the raging feminist HEll: - -- > if you redefine the definition, > then yes, I am a feminist, but with it's current interpretation, I would > never use that label. The current definition (in the dictionaries I've seen, anyway) is that femininism is about equality between the sexes -- yes, equality of opportunity -- no one suggests the two sexes are the same -- but you're right, everyone you talk to thinks it means putting men down and lifting women up at men's expense. It's too bad, but maybe that sort of extremism was necessary to get the ball rolling back in the sixties. Not that there still isn't a long way to go, but we need men's help with this -- it benefits them as well. My guess is that Joni was belittled even as a musician because she was female (what, can't play because you're a girl?) and so she prefers to identify with males, who had the power and acceptance at that time, generally, in the music biz. Lots of women have done that -- distance themselves from their own sex in order to ally with the more powerful one. I am sure that Joni's "I am not a feminist," which I heard her say at the Edmonton Folk Fest (and was sorely disappointed, felt betrayed), is only the tip of the subject for her and does not adequately explain all that she thinks about it. Because I really doubt she believes women should not have equal rights. Kate ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 14:22:47 From: "c Karma" Subject: re:Elvis & Sophie (NJC) Speaking of Elvis, did anyone catch him on the series finale of "Third Rock From The Sun?" I was hoping he would sing "The Other End Of The Telescope," which would have fit the show well, albeit perhaps too poignantly. They did use "Pump It Up" within the show underscoring action. CC _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 10:38:08 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Nice Joni article from a Penn State website The opening phrase of the article hooked *ME*... "If cover songs are tributes to one's predecessors, no one, save Bob Dylan, has had more influence on contemporary pop music than Joni Mitchell." Oh sure, NOW they tell me! ;~) if you want to catch the whole piece: http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/1998/11/11-06-98tdc/11-05-98darts-7.asp Bob NP: John Mellencamp, "Rain on the Scarecrow" live in Germany 3/18/99 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 10:50:07 -0400 From: mags Subject: Re: joni the raging feminist njc Kate wrote: > > > < femininism is about equality between the sexes -- yes, equality of > opportunity -- no one suggests the two sexes are the same -- but you're > right, everyone you talk to thinks it means putting men down and lifting > women up at men's expense. It's too bad, but maybe that sort of > extremism was necessary to get the ball rolling back in the sixties. Not > that there still isn't a long way to go, but we need men's help with > this -- it benefits them as well.>> I think in part, that is why the left wing radical feminist movement has taken things to the extreme...and much of the politics therein is fueled by the rage that some women felt and still feel about getting a raw deal out of life, just by being a woman. I dont know about the "equal" rights bit either.... is it possible to be equal in reality? That reduces the whole thing to some impossible dream. Notice what occurs in our language...do we ever describe a man who has gone into medicine as a "male" doctor...no. Honestly, if you think about the image of a doctor...is that first vision you conjur up that of a woman? I highly doubt it. What does happen in the english language is this: we do say we go to a "woman" doctor or a "woman" lawyer or a "woman" paralegal or whatever. Sexism is deeply embedded in so many aspects of our lives, yes sexism does exist ... still... and very much so. > > > < female (what, can't play because you're a girl?) and so she prefers to > identify with males, who had the power and acceptance at that time, > generally, in the music biz. Lots of women have done that -- distance > themselves from their own sex in order to ally with the more powerful > one.>> Perhaps Joni is sick and tired along with those of us who resent having to prove ourselves worthy or good enough from the platform of "xx". I dont know, just hazarding a guess. (and no, I dont pretend to know how Joni feels, this is all my humble slightly fired up opinion). > > > < the Edmonton Folk Fest (and was sorely disappointed, felt betrayed), is > only the tip of the subject for her and does not adequately explain all > that she thinks about it. Because I really doubt she believes women > should not have equal rights.>> I understand... I have seen that part of the feminist movement for many is and can be and needs to be about equal rights..but do we want to simplify it, take it down to that word. How can we? For me, I like the idea of seeing and acknowledging "difference" whether that be sex, race, class, gender..on and on. How can we pretend to be equal when clearly, we are not. I like the idea of saying yea, we are different..and this is how and why and I like the idea of celebrating and honouring and giving value those very differences. And this includes not putting men down because I get it, as well as I am able to...I get that men have been oppressed too. okay, I will go back into my corner and put on my asbestos suit too. Mags. > > > - -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- _~O / /\_, ___/\ /_ - ----------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 09:06:12 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: What if God...(NJC) Kate Bennett wrote: >What if God was always referred to as she. Michele and the rest of the choir at our church sang Bobby McFerrin's setting of the 23rd Psalm the other week..."...she leads me by the still waters...", etc. Interesting... :) - -- ######################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://www.tinkersown.com "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://www.scdh.org "The Living Tradition Concert Series" http://www.thelivingtradition.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 12:20:44 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: Nice Joni article from a Penn State website Our "Cover" boy Bob wrote: << "If cover songs are tributes to one's predecessors, no one, save Bob Dylan, has had more influence on contemporary pop music than Joni Mitchell." Oh sure, NOW they tell me! ;~) >> Yes Bob, I can imagine when you're 93 and in the nursing home, someone will be sending you an old LP of the Turkish musician Ahmed Adnan Saygun singing "Both Sides Now" for volume # 426. :~) Have a good Memorial weekend U.S. jmdlers! Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 17:29:17 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: joni the raging feminist njc I prefer a doctor who is female. I have one. In fact I generally prefer to deal with women. In my experience they tend to respect you more. yes we are all different and we can derive much pleasure and learning from that. We are not born equal. In the sense that we are not born into equal circumstances. However, each of us is born with the same intrinsic worth whether or not that is recognized. Thank your God that you don't live in Afghanistan right now. Sometimes there is a payoff in allowing yourself to be oppressed. Is it just physical strength that has allowed the male of the species to dominate? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 12:32:15 -0400 From: "blonde in the bleachers" Subject: Re: chelsea morning/same situation(sjc) Charles Manson believed he was Jesus Christ, but by 1974 (I think that is the year C&S was released) I believe he was already in jail as the Tate/LaBianca murders occurred in 1969. I always interpreted the line to be "with heaven full of astronauts and the lord underthrown" (I believe someone else said the same thing) It is hard for me to think that Joni would elude to Charles Manson in her songwriting, but I never thought about it either. >From: Randy Remote >Reply-To: Randy Remote >To: joni@smoe.org >Subject: Re: chelsea morning/same situation >Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 18:07:01 -0700 > >"With heaven full of astronauts >And the Lord on deathrow" > >I, too have interpreted this line as a reference to Manson. >If I remember right, he, as so many cult leaders, considered >himself Christ returned. I think Joni was being sarcastic (and >cryptic). What could be more out of whack than people strapping >themselves to big roman candles and propelling themselves into >the heavens, and Jesus a mass-murderer. Still, she sends up >her prayer, wondering who is there to hear.... >RR > >IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > > > In a message dated 5/24/01 10:22:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > > cvickery@danielrealty.com writes: > > > > << Paul opined < > Row" as a reference to > > Charles Manson.>> > > > > Really?? I can't imagine that Joni would be that "into" Manson. > > I always just assumed it was a reference to the whole "God is > > Dead" school of thought.... > > > > (As an aside - intersting capitalization.... "lord" but "Death > > Row." Just an observation, not a critique.) > > > > Cindy >> > > > > Not that she was "into" Manson at all; instead, I think she is giving us >a > > cynical take on the media reports of the time. By the way, according to >AP > > style, Death Row is capped when you are referring to a particular one. >And I > > lowercase "lord" because I don't think she was referring to the deity. I > > don't remember how it appears in the lyrics on the album. > > > > Paul I _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 12:41:13 -0400 (EDT) From: "Gerald Notaro (LIB)" Subject: Re: chelsea morning/same situation(sjc) On Fri, 25 May 2001, blonde in the bleachers wrote: > It is hard for me to think that Joni would elude to Charles Manson in her > songwriting, but I never thought about it either. That's part of her lyric genius. To be able to summon equally valid and vivid imagery and interpretation with the same simple words. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 12:51:03 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Joni on Dylan I don't know if anyone posted this, but I found this on Rolling Stone, Joni's wishes for Bob's 60th birthday. Joni Mitchell on Dylan No one has come close to being as good a writer as Dylan. He had these grand themes, these cast-of-thousands kind of songs, people running around with cats on their shoulders, street scenes. He did a lot of urban landscapes, like "Desolation Row," where there's so much going on. What do I make of Bob turning sixty? Because of the youth-cultish nature of our industry - of every industry, basically - I think it is a very positive thing that someone of another generation survives. The obvious wish I have for Bob is his own line: "May you stay forever young." For the creature that creates, it's all child's play. Rose in NJ rosemjoy@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 12:51:57 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: joni the raging feminist njc <> I will ALWAYS vote for a female over a male in an election, because I think they are more driven to get things done AND (especially in the South) they don't have as much as a good-old-boy network that they have to serve. (Unfortunately this usually also means that they don't get elected...) As for doctors, sure I'd rather have a female one, especially when it's time to turn my head and cough! Yeah Baby! Hey, I'll take a cheap thrill any way I can get it! :~D Bob NP: Tom Petty, "Runnin' Down A Dream", Hamburg 4/23/99 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 13:03:15 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Joni on Dylan cont. lyrics to Desolation Row Desolation Row by Bob Dylan They're selling postcards of the hanging They're painting the passports brown The beauty parlor is filled with sailors The circus is in town Here comes the blind commissioner They've got him in a trance One hand is tied to the tight-rope walker The other is in his pants And the riot squad they're restless They need somewhere to go As Lady and I look out tonight From Desolation Row Cinderella, she seems so easy "It takes one to know one," she smiles And puts her hands in her back pockets Bette Davis style And in comes Romeo, he's moaning "You Belong to Me I Believe" And someone says," You're in the wrong place, my friend You better leave" And the only sound that's left After the ambulances go Is Cinderella sweeping up On Desolation Row Now the moon is almost hidden The stars are beginning to hide The fortunetelling lady Has even taken all her things inside All except for Cain and Abel And the hunchback of Notre Dame Everybody is making love Or else expecting rain And the Good Samaritan, he's dressing He's getting ready for the show He's going to the carnival tonight On Desolation Row Now Ophelia, she's 'neath the window For her I feel so afraid On her twenty-second birthday She already is an old maid To her, death is quite romantic She wears an iron vest Her profession's her religion Her sin is her lifelessness And though her eyes are fixed upon Noah's great rainbow She spends her time peeking Into Desolation Row Einstein, disguised as Robin Hood With his memories in a trunk Passed this way an hour ago With his friend, a jealous monk He looked so immaculately frightful As he bummed a cigarette Then he went off sniffing drainpipes And reciting the alphabet Now you would not think to look at him But he was famous long ago For playing the electric violin On Desolation Row Dr. Filth, he keeps his world Inside of a leather cup But all his sexless patients They're trying to blow it up Now his nurse, some local loser She's in charge of the cyanide hole And she also keeps the cards that read "Have Mercy on His Soul" They all play on penny whistles You can hear them blow If you lean your head out far enough From Desolation Row Across the street they've nailed the curtains They're getting ready for the feast The Phantom of the Opera A perfect image of a priest They're spoonfeeding Casanova To get him to feel more assured Then they'll kill him with self-confidence After poisoning him with words And the Phantom's shouting to skinny girls "Get Outa Here If You Don't Know Casanova is just being punished for going To Desolation Row" Now at midnight all the agents And the superhuman crew Come out and round up everyone That knows more than they do Then they bring them to the factory Where the heart-attack machine Is strapped across their shoulders And then the kerosene Is brought down from the castles By insurance men who go Check to see that nobody is escaping To Desolation Row Praise be to Nero's Neptune The Titanic sails at dawn And everybody's shouting "Which Side Are You On?" And Ezra Pound and T. S. Eliot Fighting in the captain's tower While calypso singers laugh at them And fishermen hold flowers Between the windows of the sea Where lovely mermaids flow And nobody has to think too much About Desolation Row Yes, I received your letter yesterday (About the time the door knob broke) When you asked how I was doing Was that some kind of joke? All these people that you mention Yes, I know them, they're quite lame I had to rearrange their faces And give them all another name Right now I can't read too good Don't send me no more letters no Not unless you mail them From Desolation Row I'll agree with Joni, there's a lot going on here. Rose in NJ rosemjoy@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 14:33:09 -0400 From: mags Subject: Re: What if God...(NJC) > Steve wrote: > > < setting of the 23rd Psalm the other week..."...she leads me by the > still waters...", etc. Interesting... :)?? Steve, I think you have mentioned this before....that you have Bobby McFerrin's Medicine Music CD..absolutely gorgeous is this version of the 23rd Psalm. I saw Bobby McFerrin perform with the Boston Pops on PBS one year ... he did a few numbers with his voicestra...one of which was the 23rd Psalm. I remember him explaining to the audience about how gender is just beyond the word he/she..something like that..I should see if I can find the video tape recording I have of it and check out just how he explains it. Another gem on that CD is the glorious tune Common Threads, which was part of a documentary on the Aids Quilt project...I guarantee this will make you cry. I know it moves me to the core. Mags np: Common Threads Bobby McFerrin and his voicestra > > -- > ######################################################## > Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com > "The Tinker's Own" http://www.tinkersown.com > "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://www.scdh.org > "The Living Tradition Concert Series" http://www.thelivingtradition.org/ - -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- _~O / /\_, ___/\ /_ - ----------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 16:31:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: S&L DVD, the %.1 mystery solved - --- Mark Domyancich wrote: > I think Jerry meant to type 5.1, % being the shift > key and 5. A common typo. > 5.1 channel surround sound is supposed to be very > good, but I haven't tried > out any receivers that have that feature. > Thanks for the explanation, but it still means nada to me. I've got a cheap stereo system, a 15-yr old TV and a PC, none of this fancy shmancy expensive stereo stuff, unlike Jerry, who is obviously filthy rich ;) Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 16:36:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: may 23!!!!!!!!!!!!!! njc - --- TerryM2222@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 5/24/2001 11:02:43 AM Eastern > Daylight Time, > steve@psitech.com writes: > > << Ja, vatever zose dreams might be... :) >> > > I dream mine plane no has flat tires ven I lant een > Boaston. > > Dr. S. You're starting to sound a lot like Ahnold to me. (I'll be bock.) Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 16:41:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: RE: S&L DVD - --- Wally Kairuz wrote: > so this is only on dvd, not vhs? > On the CDNow.com site, they have both dvd and vhs - oddly enough, the vhs version is more expensive (?) Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 16:36:56 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: S&L DVD, the %.1 mystery solved Catherine McKay wrote: > --none of this fancy shmancy expensive stereo > stuff, unlike Jerry, who is obviously filthy rich ;) Yeah, right. A rich librarian! But I do have a very nice system, as it is a priority for me. I review videos and dvds professionally and need a great system to get everything out of them. But 5.1 systems are not as rare as they were when I set mine up 3 years ago. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 17:17:43 -0400 From: "janine sherman" Subject: Same Situation I think I may have missed some (as usual) of the commentary on this song, but I believe the guy that inspired Joni's "female role self-evaluation" here is ...oh what the heck is his name?... Annette Bennings' husband........... oh yeah, Warren Beatty. Don't know if that can lend any insight or not. I always thought of the Lord on deathrow line meaning "God is dead" till I read someone's (sorry I can't give you credit) thought on the Manson thing. Definitely food for thought. That's what I love about this list. Thanks. Janine ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 17:57:49 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: NJCRe: that damn joni - long (sorry) and pretty much NJC some wonderful person wrote: > > Colin mentioned that he gets hassled for working in a craft that has long > > been recognised as "women's work", ie. knitting. and then wonderful Colin added as a further word: > > > Strangely enough the reaction i get from men is usually WOW!, they are > impressed. Some women just sneer. The better a man is at it, the more the snide > remarks! > There was a piece on National Public Radio within the last week about a men's prison where they teach knitting and maybe crochet to the inmates and it evidently is paying off in huge dividends. People have something to do to pass the time, something creative to exercise their minds, and something social as they compare their work. Big benefits all around. The selling point at first was that traditionally men were the tailors and weavers which is how they got past the macho reluctance. (Who knows if that is true, but you do have past macho reluctance...) Anyway, the inmates that were interviewed loved what they were doing and it somehow leads to job opportunities after release but I didn't catch that part of the story. (the Rev) Vince ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 23:11:56 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: NJCRe: that damn joni - long (sorry) and pretty much NJC > something to do to pass the time, > something creative to exercise their minds, and something social as they compare > their work. Big benefits all around. I bet it works well. Historically, knitting was originally a man's job., at least here in the UK. It paid well in comaprison to others labouring work. It is only in fairly recent times that it has become seen as a woman's are of expertise. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 15:46:24 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Re: What if God/Les Deux Cafe(NJC) >Steve, I think you have mentioned this before....that you have Bobby >McFerrin's Medicine Music CD..absolutely gorgeous is this version of the 23rd >Psalm. Nope - must be one of those other Steve's - we're thick on the ground! :) As I'm on digest, I don't know if any of my cohorts has posted about last night's EXCELLENT dinner at Les Deux Cafe, with our Viennese visitor (No, NOT Dr. Sig Mondegreen!). It was delightful to meet the somewhat-jet-lagged-and-who-can-blame-her Marian and her sister, and see my LA buds Kakki, Coyote, Brad and Clark again. That cafe' is definitely on the list of future LA Jonifest sites... :) - -- ######################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://www.tinkersown.com "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://www.scdh.org "The Living Tradition Concert Series" http://www.thelivingtradition.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 11:22:42 +1200 From: "hell" Subject: Re: Stereotyping NJC Colin wrote: > We were told what to think because we were too bad and stupid to have any ideas > of our own. God or people would kill us if we were not polite and obedeient. We > would get sent away if we were naughty.(I was stupidly terrified of being sent > away! Would have been the ebst thing....). i f we dared to have our own > thoughts, we were possesd by demons. Doubts was put there by the devil. > Questioning anything was wrong and evil and likely to be met with a fisyt or > land yoyu in hell when dead. A very reall fear at the time. > > Freedom to think what one thinks and live how one lives and be who one is, is > wonderfull!! Wow, Colin's post really made me think about how fortunate I've been. My parents never labelled us with stereotypes, or expected us to do certain things in accordance with our gender. I grew up doing whatever I felt like doing - not in everything (obviously) but for example: I learnt all about the internal combustion engine when I was 9 - I asked my father how the car worked, so he took me outside, and explained all the engine parts, and how they work. Something I remember to this day, and it makes it much easier to talk to mechanics about my car, and even to perform basic repairs and maintenance myself. I can't believe some women (and men!) don't even know how to change a tyre. I helped Dad build our boat in the garage - a fifteen-foot plywood runabout. I was given a pair of overalls, and put to work sanding, painting, etc. I love doing this kind of work, and it's something I still love. I made myself a bed-side lamp when I was at University, from scraps I found in the garage. I've put a roof over the entrance-way to a house I had years ago. I've completely refinished a china cabinet. I've made myself a coffee table/chest. I've been "commissioned" (by my sister) to make two large ottomans. My next project will be a dining table and chairs. I learnt to knit and sew at an early age, and so did my brother - he made most of his clothes when he was at University, and saved a considerable amount of money in the process. All the kids learnt how to cook proper meals - boys and girls. Of course this lack of stereotyping had it's downside. I was expected to take my turn at mowing the lawns, and taking out the rubbish (just like the boys), and they in turn, had to help with the dishes, and the food preparation. But I don't regret a second of it! Hell ____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Hell's Personal Photo Page: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/main/personal.htm Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://www.nbls.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 11:33:49 +1200 From: "hell" Subject: Re: joni the raging feminist njc Mags wrote: > For me, I like the idea of seeing and acknowledging "difference" whether that > be sex, race, class, gender..on and on. How can we pretend to be equal when > clearly, we are not. I like the idea of saying yea, we are different..and this > is how and why and I like the idea of celebrating and honouring and giving > value those very differences. And this includes not putting men down because I > get it, as well as I am able to...I get that men have been oppressed too. > okay, I will go back into my corner and put on my asbestos suit too. No need for the asbestos! This is very similar to the point I was trying to make. Men and woman ARE different. But that doesn't mean that one gender is better than the other - just different. And if no one gender is better, then both genders should get equal treatment, which comes back to my point about equalism. Equal opportunity, and equal status in society. Hell ____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Hell's Personal Photo Page: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/main/personal.htm Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://www.nbls.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 09:34:32 -0400 From: "C.A. Starkey" Subject: J L'H mentioned in Q magazine's greatest album covers issue As an online Joni expert talking about the Hissing of Summer Lawns cover. Carol ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 16:47:45 -0700 From: "Brenda J. Walker" Subject: Re: joni/feminism/Chrissie Hynde and a Blue Heron (VLJC) For the record, I'm with the folks who question the quoting. After all, look at the three statements. "I am absolutely not a feminist." "I prefer the company of men to women, always have. " "And I'm constantly lumped in with women with whom I don't belong." To me these read like very separate thoughts (not like the writer is obligated to use ellipses between the statements). I don't feel comfortable concluding that Joni related the second statement to the first or the third to the second. Who knows what she may have said in between? I haven't read much on Joni and feminism, but I wouldn't conclude that I understand the reasoning for her position (the first statement) based on the two that follow it. Now for a bit of levity... Robert Holliston wrote: > > Chrissie Hynde has been a highly vocal admirer, This is from an interview conducted by and between Chrissie Hynde (CH) and k.d. lang (kdl). CH: What about it? Are you a feminist? kdl: Yes. CH: You are? As of when? kdl: Always. CH: I never thought I was a feminist... kdl: Oh, you're such a fucking feminist. CH: No. kdl: You're kidding yourself! CH: I'm not kidding myself - a feminist once told me I wasn't; but, by definition, I suppose I am. I've never denied or confirmed these allegations. kdl: [laughing] I'm not afraid to say I'm a feminist. CH: OK, I don't care if I say I'm a feminist or not. I'm going to get on stage and play my guitar, and no fucker's going to stop me. So, whether you want to call it feminism or not, I will continue to do my thing. Being in a rock band was not a social statement in terms of male or female; it was a social statement in terms of "leave me the fuck alone." kdl: Well, I don't know what the political definition of feminism is, but to your audiences you were extremely feminist. To have a strong frontwoman who actually played the guitar and didn't take any shit from anyone - that's totally feminist to me. CH: OK, but that came naturally to me. I don't have to smoke a pipe and wear elbow patches to do that. kdl: But you'd look good doing it. Here's the link for anyone interested in reading the rest of it: http://home.macau.ctm.net/~tina71/articles/q.htm Brenda n.p. (or should I say replaying in my head) - This morning's sight of a tremendous blue heron, only a few feet away, swooping up from the tiny pond in the middle of my friend's cement fortress condo complex (in Culver City) with a sizable koi in its beak. It gracefully flew to the top of one of the buildings, swallowed the ten pound (or more) Kohaku on the spot, rested for a minute and flew away, headed back to what's left of the Ballona Wetlands, I suppose. The bird - http://bio.lmu.edu/ballona/animals/ballbird.htm The Wetlands - http://www.ballona-wetlands.org/pages/factsa.html ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2001 #233 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?