From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2001 #232 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Friday, May 25 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 232 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. Information on the 4th "Annual" New England JoniFest: http://www.jmdl.com/jfne2001.cfm The Joni Chat Room: http://www.jmdl.com/chat.cfm ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: that damn joni [Catherine McKay ] Re: chelsea morning/same situation [Catherine McKay ] Re: chelsea morning/same situation [Catherine McKay ] RE: manson njc [Catherine McKay ] Re: S&L DVD [Vince Lavieri ] Re: suggestions - totally NJC [Catherine McKay ] Re: S&L DVD, the %.1 mystery solved [Mark Domyancich ] Re: S&L DVD - now NJC [Catherine McKay ] I found it! NJC [Vince Lavieri ] Re: S&L DVD - now NJC [Vince Lavieri ] Re: may 23!!!!!!!!!!!!!! njc [Heather ] Re: that damn joni (aka Joni and Feminism) NJC [mags ] feminsim ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: may 23!!!!!!!!!!!!!! njc [TerryM2222@aol.com] Re: may 23!!!!!!!!!!!!!! njc [TerryM2222@aol.com] Re: Huge Question ; long ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: That Damn Joni [Bobsart48@aol.com] Huge Question, njc ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 22:00:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: that damn joni - --- IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 5/24/01 9:02:06 PM Eastern > Daylight Time, > anima_rising@yahoo.ca writes: > > << Maybe she still believes that being a "feminist" > makes you a > man-hater and a bra-burner! >> > > Doesn't it? > If not in practice, then certainly in perception, > and perception IS reality. > You're beginning to sound too much like my boss whose favourite line is, "Perception is everything." Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 22:02:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: chelsea morning/same situation - --- IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > Indeed, Manson WAS claiming to be the messiah, or > something akin to that. > Why is it always the nutbars who *believe* they're the Messiah? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 22:01:24 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: manson sjc In a message dated 5/24/01 9:57:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, wallykai@fibertel.com.ar writes: << but didn't the manson thing happen in 1969? i remember i was a child when sharon tate was murdered. why would charles manson come back in the same situation, a song that's so personal. >> The TRIAL, Wally, not the murders. Manson's trial and sentencing made bigger news for a longer time than the actual murders. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 22:02:32 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: manson sjc In a message dated 5/24/01 9:57:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, wallykai@fibertel.com.ar writes: << and a few years later, i joined the communist party >> I guess you can forget about that future career as an actor, director or screenwriter in Hollywood, eh? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 22:04:16 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: chelsea morning/same situation In a message dated 5/24/01 10:02:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, anima_rising@yahoo.ca writes: << --- IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > Indeed, Manson WAS claiming to be the messiah, or > something akin to that. > Why is it always the nutbars who *believe* they're the Messiah? >> At least Manson wasn't Jewish. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 23:05:53 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: manson njc oh but i left ''the party'' two years later. so maybe not hollywood but...the indies???? - -----Mensaje original----- De: IVPAUL42@aol.com [mailto:IVPAUL42@aol.com] Enviado el: Jueves, 24 de Mayo de 2001 11:03 p.m. Para: wallykai@fibertel.com.ar; joni@smoe.org Asunto: Re: manson sjc In a message dated 5/24/01 9:57:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, wallykai@fibertel.com.ar writes: << and a few years later, i joined the communist party >> I guess you can forget about that future career as an actor, director or screenwriter in Hollywood, eh? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 22:08:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: chelsea morning/same situation - --- IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 5/24/01 9:50:23 PM Eastern > Daylight Time, > Relayer211@aol.com writes: > > << << > << "With heaven full of astronauts > And the Lord on deathrow" >> > > To me, she's saying the only "heaven" is outer > space which is where > humans explore and conquer. For those people, > that's their heaven > replacement. >> > > I can only say that I think your interpretation > seems to ignore the context > of the time and location in which she wrote the > song. > Maybe I misinterpreted what Relayer was trying to say, but it makes sense to me. Who is going to hear your prayer when heaven (as a child would see it, up there in the clouds) has become a place "full of astronauts" (like the "conquered moon")? So heaven isn't there anymore. And "God is dead", the Lord is on death row. There's no heaven, there's no God - so who are you going to pray to, and who is going to hear? (But she prays anyway.) Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 22:10:08 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: manson njc In a message dated 5/24/01 10:08:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, wallykai@fibertel.com.ar writes: << oh but i left ''the party'' two years later. so maybe not hollywood but...the indies???? >> Well, maybe, as long as you say testify that you joined merely to help infiltrate the party and provide a list of names of those who attended the meetings. LOL!@ Paul ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 22:15:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: manson sjc - --- Wally Kairuz wrote: i'm sure it was 1969 because that was also > the year that we prayed > rosaries at school for god to kill chilean president > salvador alende, a > leftist. you see, my teachers were the kind of roman > catholics that were not > unlike manson himself. i was 8. i would hear stories > about kids that had > been raped or mutilated by the communists because > they were praying in their > catholic schools. all this while i was PRAYING AT A > CATHOLIC SCHOOL. so i > felt like i would become a catholic martyr any > moment, and my parents would > put a plate with my name on it on one of the pews at > church. Wally, I hope you're writing a book - if not, just get off your ass and do it! (I used to dream about becoming a martyr too, but I was in safe and boring Canada, so what did I know - those nutty nuns and the things they put in a kid's head!) > and a few years later, i joined the communist party > and my little sister, > who was 11 at the time, was kidnapped and tortured > by the secret police. > when my father found her, my sister was a zombie. .... > she turned up a year > later. she was living with > a guy and breeding beagles. and you know what helped > my sister? the beagles. > she has been breeding dogs for ten years and she has > come to terms with many > things. i love my sister more than anybody else in > the world Grace in beagles. This is a great story - get on that book! Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 22:17:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: RE: manson njc - --- Wally Kairuz wrote: > oh but i left ''the party'' two years later. so > maybe not hollywood > but...the indies???? > > Once a commie, always a commie! Better red than dead, or is it the other way around? I'd rather be alive. Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 22:19:09 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: S&L DVD Catherine McKay wrote: > --- Jerry Notaro wrote: > > > Well I hope someone gives us a report on the %.1 > > sound mix. If it is > > good then it will be worth buying. > > > > Jerry, I wouldn't recognize a %.1 sound mix if it bit > me in the ass! I'll be listening to it/viewing it on > my PC (in the hope of some day buying a real DVD > player, but there are urgent and pressing matters that > prevent this from becoming a reality for quite some time.) > > _ If it bit me on the ass I would recognize the bit but not what did it, so I'm in the same place (only metaphysically, our asses are ontologically in very different places) as Catherine. I will tell you if the thing is letterboxed because if not I will smash it into a million pieces in my stamp out things that are not letterboxed campaign. I will be playing it on a DVD since I did give myself the gift of DVD last Christmas (no one else would), I disagree with Catherine that there are more urgent and pressing matters. For those few of you who remember my drastic eat no food hardly diet that my doctor but me last October, eating soy milk and puffed rice or wheat with stevia for sweetener is very, very economical. That is eating that meal seven evenings a week. With the occasional vegetables and the occasional meat for morning and lunch, eating becomes so boring you kind of stop. The money that I am saving on candy, donuts, and actual food items is extraordinary! Thus DVD becomes affordable! And oddly, since I was allergic to all things edible anyway, my health is never been better, and I've dropped weight I've fought to drop for years, and I am in a pre-buff for the summer stage, a stage which I never attained prior to this eat hardly any food diet! (If buff actually is achieved, pictures will be posted.) So I'm looking good in the reflection of the tv screen as I am putting the DVD into the DVD player! Kind of like the guy in American Psycho who is making love to two women but can't take his eyes off his reflection in the mirror the entire time; he never even saw his partners. But then that's not a good analogy, is it? So I am back to the fact that I don't have a clue about what Jerry wants to know. So, precious one of my heart, try asking what you want me to tell you in very simple language, very simple as if I am a child! (Bonus points id anyone identifies what movie that is from.) (the Rev) Vince, pre-buff and pre-S&L DVD and aren't you all jealous even though I am clueless on the audiophile stuff! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 22:26:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: suggestions - totally NJC - --- "A.Yaroshenko" wrote: > I'd like > to have some video materials (PAL) on videotapes > about Jony Mitchei's > concerts and, may be, private life. There are plenty of tape trades and so on, both video and audio that you can find out about on the www.jmdl.com site. >Few words about me-38 years old , height 195 > cm, weight 75 kg, married (with problems), > son-age14, I'm an electrical engineer, Me, my age - too old! Height 161 cm. Weight? Too much, forget about it, I try to! I have a daughter 14 and a son 10. Hair colour - depends on what brand I decide to buy. Shoe size, 9AA American or 40 European ;) Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 21:31:16 -0500 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: Re: S&L DVD, the %.1 mystery solved I think Jerry meant to type 5.1, % being the shift key and 5. A common typo. 5.1 channel surround sound is supposed to be very good, but I haven't tried out any receivers that have that feature. Mark Domyancich mark@jmdl.com / Harpua@revealed.net > From: Vince Lavieri > Reply-To: Vince Lavieri > Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 22:19:09 -0400 > To: Catherine McKay > Cc: notaro@bayflash.stpt.usf.edu, joni > Subject: Re: S&L DVD > > Catherine McKay wrote: > >> --- Jerry Notaro wrote: >>>> Well I hope someone gives us a report on the %.1 >>> sound mix. If it is >>> good then it will be worth buying. >>> >> >> Jerry, I wouldn't recognize a %.1 sound mix if it bit >> me in the ass! I'll be listening to it/viewing it on >> my PC (in the hope of some day buying a real DVD >> player, but there are urgent and pressing matters that >> prevent this from becoming a reality for quite some time.) >> >> _ > > If it bit me on the ass I would recognize the bit but not what did it, > so I'm in the same place (only metaphysically, our asses are > ontologically in very different places) as Catherine. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 22:33:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: S&L DVD - now NJC - --- Vince Lavieri wrote: > > For those few of you who remember my > drastic eat no food > hardly diet that my doctor but me last October, > eating soy milk and > puffed rice or wheat with stevia for sweetener is > very, very > economical. That is eating that meal seven evenings > a week. With the > occasional vegetables and the occasional meat for > morning and lunch, > eating becomes so boring you kind of stop. I know the feeling about becoming bored with eating and food, but it doesn't stop me - there's this little thing called hunger that keeps rearing its ugly head. > The > money that I am saving > on candy, donuts, and actual food items is > extraordinary! Thus DVD > becomes affordable! True. Yummy though they are (until after you've eaten them, when you ask yourself, "Why'd I eat that? I feel sick!") the prices have become ridiculous. I don't know how much a chocolate bar is in the US but here in Canada, in some places, it's now over $1. I may have to quit eating candy and take up smoking again. ;) > my health is never been better, and > I've dropped weight > I've fought to drop for years, and I am in a > pre-buff for the summer > stage, a stage which I never attained prior to this > eat hardly any food > diet! (If buff actually is achieved, pictures will > be posted.) Sure, Vince, rub it in. Meanwhile I'm becoming more of a butterball with every passing year (and it's not even cute.) Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 22:41:40 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: I found it! NJC After my prior post, you may all conclude that I am the most self-absorbed person in the world. Ok, I am. No one but me would search endlessly for the text of a post that I myself wrote. What vanity, what an ego. I should be shot! Someone (I am so self-centered that I don't remember who) posted about turning 30, and then we had a series of posts on turning other age numbers, and I knew that I had written on that for Evian the new father's 30th birthday last year when the new baby was in the pre-conception but getting ready to rock and roll stage. Evian took pity on me and took time out from his new baby duties (by the way, we prayed for all in church a couple of weeks in a row now) to tell me when his birthday was. Thus I was able to narrow my here to fore fruitless search of digest after digest (do you have idea of how many digest there are?) and I found it! I realize no one care but me but I often post to amuse myself. Sp in an egotistical move akin to hosting one's retrospective, I post my original post from 21 March 2000 on the subject of turning 30 and the aging process: (those easy bored or shocked my my utter grandiose lack of embarrassment about hunting up and posting my own old post can skip this; it's not very good, but it means something to me with baseball season back and looking forward to seeing some good friends in a few weeks, And thanks Evian, for having the grace to help me out) Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 04:24:48 -0500 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Evian's birthday ... Child! NJC evian piteously wrote: > I share mine with Elton John and Aretha this Saturday, and since I am > turning 30, I feel so old melancholy about it, I could puke.... Lather was 30 years old today, they took away all of his toys, his mother sent newspaper clippings to him 'bout his old friends who stopped being boys... I turned 30 in the predawn mist of time (ok, 17 years ago) and it was at confirmation camp; yes, with large groups of 7th and 8th graders, engaged in the teaching of catechetical material, I turned a very lonely 30. So I brought our parish's phonograph (this story involves many ancient artifacts, including me) and a Jefferson Airplane album (when vinyl ruled) on the appointed day, and played "Lather" over and over and over but Lather still finds it a nice thing to do to lie about nude in the sand, making mountains that look like bumps, and thrashing the air with his hands... My confirmands took pity on me and told me that I was still worthwhile. But wait, old Lather's productive you know, he produces the finest of sounds, with drumsticks on either side of nose, snorting the best licks in town. And they sang the Lather song with me and then hoisted my cut-offs (with me not in them) up the flag pole as a birthday salute. I should have told him, no, you're not old, and I should have let him go on, smiling, baby boy. Now all these years later, 30 - was I ever that young? But consider: it is worse to be turning 36, the year in which you become closer to 50 than 20... consider it is worse to be in your 40s (as I am, still vainly trying to claim 'middle 40s') where eyesight diminishes (I need contacts and glasses to read) and no one looks at you as anything more than a graying figure of many earth revolutions... or: the best is yet to come! Tonight I did yet another in a series of kick-ass step aerobics/kick boxing classes, doing things that I couldn't do, at 40, or 30, or 20, and in my callow youth I never had all of Joni's albums (which I do now, although at 20 I had 2 out of 3!)... and I can, and this is most important, Evian, gather together with friends that I have known for 30+ years, with people who I have known and have known me through so many of the days of our lives, and we no longer try to impress each other, or have to explain everything to each other, because we know, we've been there for each other, we know all about each other, the dumb things we've done, the grandiose visions, the different affectations and things we did to be cool and now embarrass us, we know all of each other's spouses and former spouses and loves of our lives, and our failures, weaknesses, mistakes, strengths, and essential goodness, and how contentment arises in being with people with whom one shares so much of life. Time, is on my side, yes it is... Age is a bastard thing, aging is worse, but the gift of time with friends is the most wonderful blessing of all and I measure a large part of the quality of my life by the friends that I have that go way, ay back with me. And it takes time to get that, and it is good. When I go a baseball game with my buds this year, we'll have about 148 years of human life there which makes us sound old, but about 108 of those years have been spent in being friends with each other. You can't get that on the cheap... old friends... So the birthday, dear Evian, is a progression to the point where you can have your friends for more years, and all that is good in the relationships that span the lives of the parties. And who was it that said, "life is for learning"? This trip down memory lane with accompanying boring sermon is the down side of age for me, I have to tell these pointless stories, so forget all I said (like everyone does) and just have a happy birthday, big guy! (the Rev) Vince ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 22:54:56 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: S&L DVD - now NJC Catherine McKay wrote: > --- Vince Lavieri wrote: > > > > For those few of you who remember my > > drastic eat no food > > hardly diet that my doctor but me last October, > > eating soy milk and > > puffed rice or wheat with stevia for sweetener is > > very, very > > economical. That is eating that meal seven evenings > > a week. With the > > occasional vegetables and the occasional meat for > > morning and lunch, > > eating becomes so boring you kind of stop. > > I know the feeling about becoming bored with eating > and food, but it doesn't stop me - there's this little > thing called hunger that keeps rearing its ugly head. Ah, sweet catherine, when the food is so boring hunger ceases to happen. The stomach says, "oh, more soy milk? more beef with no seasoning, no spice, no ketchup, mustard, nothing, yet another damn plain hamburger? I'd rather not. " And the stomach sends a message to the brain: News Flash: Not Hungry! After a while, you just start eating less. Hunger starves to death, or least realizes it is getting no satisfaction. > > > True. Yummy though they are (until after you've eaten > them, when you ask yourself, "Why'd I eat that? I > feel sick!") the prices have become ridiculous. I > don't know how much a chocolate bar is in the US but > here in Canada, in some places, it's now over $1. I > may have to quit eating candy and take up smoking > again. ;) Quitting smoking allows me to go to baseball games and 2 BSN concerts and buy the actual DVDs and cds and books and all kinds of things that I hadn't been able to afford... all the money I spend on things that I either burned away, exhaled away, or defecated away... kind of silly to spend money on post-consumption waste products! > > > > my health is never been better, and > > I've dropped weight > > I've fought to drop for years, and I am in a > > pre-buff for the summer > > stage, a stage which I never attained prior to this > > eat hardly any food > > diet! (If buff actually is achieved, pictures will > > be posted.) > > Sure, Vince, rub it in. Meanwhile I'm becoming more > of a butterball with every passing year (and it's not > even cute.) Oh, yes you are cute! As self-absorbed as I am, I will never achieve cute! That is reserved for the good and caring and warm-hearted people like you! (the Rev) Vince ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 23:00:31 -0400 From: Heather Subject: Re: may 23!!!!!!!!!!!!!! njc Happy Birthday Terry!!! Heather ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 23:19:41 -0400 From: mags Subject: Re: that damn joni (aka Joni and Feminism) NJC > Kakki wrote: > > < innocuous dictionary definition when they hear the term "feminist" or any > other label. They see it through their own interpretation and perspective. > I can just see Joni calling herself a feminist and then having the various > factions of feminism attacking her for not being a "true" feminist.>> This is precisely one of the points I was trying to assert earlier today in my post on feminism. Therein lies the problem, there are so many, many interpretations of the word feminist/feminism and gawd help us if we dont fit into this or that slot. ... liberal, radical, socialist marxist ball breaking man haters.... (no i do not hate men!!!) ....to name but a few....in my experience...Ive learned to no longer wave my "f" flag around because of all the shit I caught for it. I rarely say outright that I am a feminist because of all the connotations that immediately get conjured up. I dont want to live in a box however I do want to live into feminist politics in my day to day life and actions, in the way that I raise my daughter...in the way I love my sweetie..in the way that I wont stand for anything I feel is wrong. It is my hope and dream to continue to effect change, to work towards social justice for social change. It does matter. For me, personally, I dont need to lay claim to it....i just live it. I feel that my convictions are stronger than ever. oh I do hope this makes sense. With my early morning post, i was just trying to make a point or two. perhaps it got lost in the translation. And yea, it sure did feel good to finally be heard and seen in print. Mags. > > > > > > > Marcel also made a good point that if she affiliates with a particular > label, then the politically active gatekeepers of that label would probably > pressure her to be appearing at their events and perhaps taking on certain > aspects of their agenda to which she may disagree. What a hassle, really, > and I don't think any of us would want to be put in such a position > ourselves. I've always maintained that she has done her part in advancing > the best and truest aspects of humanism, feminism and liberalism and I don't > think she owes anyone more. > > Kakki - -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- _~O / /\_, ___/\ /_ - ----------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 20:27:34 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: feminsim someone said << Maybe she still believes that being a "feminist" makes you a man-hater and a bra-burner! >> someone else answered >>>Doesn't it? If not in practice, then certainly in perception, and perception IS reality.<< Hopefully you were joking. Feminism used to have a more militant edge to it which in hindsight I believe was created in part by some (not all) feminists and partially by some (men & women) who were threatened by its concepts. It has been many many decades since then. Nevertheless, I can totally understand Joni's point of view that she doesn't want to be anything with an ist or ism on the end of it. She too full of many complex thoughts & ideas to ever let herself be labeled by someone elses definition. And by the very nature of this discussion & the one that we all had regarding feminism a while ago, there are lots of different interpretations about feminism. It reminds me of the fable of all those blind guys thinking that the part of the elephant they were touching was the whole elephant. Feminism is a deep & complex issue but in the end I think it is about equal opportunity and balancing what has been out of balance for too long. There is a great list out there that I wish I could put my hands on. Maybe someone has it. It goes a little like this: What if the constitution was written "all women are created equal" ommiting men What if God was always referred to as she. Etc. ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 00:07:04 EDT From: TerryM2222@aol.com Subject: Re: may 23!!!!!!!!!!!!!! njc In a message dated 5/23/2001 9:32:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, johnsonjs@earthlink.net writes: << They are Joni Sistas! I'm still looking forward to seeing her paintings....especially the ones with tire tracks all over them ;~) >> Jody, Your memory is scary!!! Can I borrow some of those brain cells of yours? I can barely remember what day it is. I hope to see you in Boston!! Terry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 00:20:19 EDT From: TerryM2222@aol.com Subject: Re: may 23!!!!!!!!!!!!!! njc In a message dated 5/24/2001 11:02:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, steve@psitech.com writes: << Ja, vatever zose dreams might be... :) >> I dream mine plane no has flat tires ven I lant een Boaston. Dr. S. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 00:43:20 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: Huge Question ; long Yea Brenda! Finally someone steps up and speaks the truth that she is selling titles and EARNS her shelf space! I feel like I've been too long the lone voice in my opinion that she is commercially viable. (Even though she says publically that she's been coddled out of "respect" for her artistry. I mean, check it out. Did Columbia keep Johnny Cash on the label out of "repect"? They did not. (To be clear, I'm not using this illustration to denegrate Johnny Cash. He was there at Sun Records when Sam Phillips started things rolling, with Roy Orbison, Carl Perkins, and some "pretty boy" from Memphis.... Anyway, Johnny Cash certianly doesn't need me or *any*one to validate him.) Brenda said, >> They are there for sales. Joni has one of best selling pure catalogs in the business. For instance, this week her catalog did cumulative sales of nearly 4,000 units. This week. And there's no marketing campaign going on to get that nor is there a new record out that's being promoted. >> was playing: TV commercial from 19?? The brand new product: lemon scented Pledge for dusting. np: "Is this just vulgar electricity or the edifying fire?" Who else, beside Bob Dylan, would write those last 5 words!!!! It's no wonder Joni's "pushing digits"! Joni is not a charity case. She earns her shelf space. Thank you Brenda! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 01:01:01 EDT From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: That Damn Joni In a very thoughtful post, Kakki wrote (largely in defense of Joni, and please forgive my failure to repeat the entire earlier contexts within which these remarks were addressed): "I don't know MG, it seems she has had this challenge to call herself a feminist thrust in her face for years and maybe she has become exasperated with repeatedly addressing it. I agree her words written on the flat dimension of the page sound more dismissive than what we would expect of her. In many past interviews she has articulated her views on the subject more thoughtfully." I agree with this concept very strongly. First, I have found that one can rarely completely trust what one reads in the press or sees and hears on other media. And even if the quote was both accurate and presented in context, I think it rather obviously means that she does not consider herself - - and would prefer that others not consider her - one who is obsessed with the issue or aligned with the more radical views of the politically visible leaders of the movement. It is human nature that those most obsessed with an issue - and in many cases most fanatical - gravitate to positions of leadership in said areas (wherein they often fail to fairly represent the more moderate views of most others who believe in the basic cause). Moreover, they often misrepresent conditions, abuse statistics (worse than damned lies) and attribute their own radical views to the entire membership. It is ironic that those who are so poorly represented (or misrepresented) so often fail to decry the misrepresentations of the self-acclaimed leadership, but instead lash out at those who would criticize said leaders' misrepresentations. "The best lack conviction, given some time to think, and the worst are full of passion without mercy......... We are all hopelessly oppressed cowards". As for herself, my sense is that she often makes generalizations - some stereotypical in nature - that are by their nature politically incorrect in the current social environment. Inevitable. She is a keenly observant person, whose stock in trade is identifiying things (situations, foibles, virtues, feelings) common to her and us all, and sharing them - even the warts - through her art. That's part of who she is. It is bound occasionally to show up in interviews as well as in her art. If we can't handle the truth, well...... "I have also sometimes cringed when she has appeared to diss other female artists because it just seems mean". Yes. There is a tinge of bitterness (perhaps more than a tinge there) of a type that is unbecoming when it appears in the greats. It is not as though Joni is unrecognized at this point. The majority of the smartest, most gifted and most sensitive artists, critics and fans have recognized her as their "favorite child" (and I do not mean favorite daughter) - she would do best to wear that with a quiet, peaceful pride. (Far better for John Mellenkamp to assert "I do not want to sound mean, but there is only one female artist" than for her to do so). It is not possible to claim both that audience and the broader masses - which would she rather have ? Too many years of being underappreciated may have taken a toll - I trust she will grow out of that (if she has not already). "Then again, some interviewers have wanted her to lump her in with artists like Madonna. Nothing against Madonna, but can you blame her for wanting to dissassociate herself from Madonna's artistic visions? "Case of You" simply doesn't compare to "Like a Virgin" and there's no point trying to lump them together in one big generic female singer songwriter pigeonhole." Come on.... not a real interviewer. "There's the problem. Most people don't objectively think of a generic and innocuous dictionary definition when they hear the term "feminist" or any other label. They see it through their own interpretation and perspective. I can just see Joni calling herself a feminist and then having the various factions of feminism attacking her for not being a "true" feminist.I've always thought of her as a humanist and an individualist. But, as colin pointed out, even calling herself a humanist is fraught with misinterpretation because in England and also in parts of the U.S. it is equated with athiesm. Joni's not an athiest so those who now claim the term "humanist" would probably take her to task for appropriating "their" term." Bravo ! (And the lesson may be 'better to disavow than to avow') "Marcel also made a good point that if she affiliates with a particular label, then the politically active gatekeepers of that label would probably pressure her to be appearing at their events and perhaps taking on certain aspects of their agenda to which she may disagree. What a hassle, really, and I don't think any of us would want to be put in such a position ourselves." I think she already has been so imposed upon, many times, for many causes, some of them wrong (e.g., Hurricane). "I've always maintained that she has done her part in advancing the best and truest aspects of humanism, feminism and liberalism and I don't think she owes anyone more." Hear, Hear, Kakki !! Bob S. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 01:45:04 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Huge Question, njc UH, OVER HERE!!! I have Photshop at home, a fast connection, and I love photos. Espcecially 400 pixels or so along the major axis. I'm ready when you are Les. (ftp site instructions being sent under separate cover.) Lama >> Actually, we've been trying to start one. There's lots of photos collectively in our possession, it's just a matter of getting someone to do the organizing!>> ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2001 #232 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?