From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2001 #231 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Thursday, May 24 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 231 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. Information on the 4th "Annual" New England JoniFest: http://www.jmdl.com/jfne2001.cfm The Joni Chat Room: http://www.jmdl.com/chat.cfm ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- that damn joni [Kate ] Re: Folk down under - NJC [john low ] Re: that damn joni ["Kakki" ] anyone interested - free give away ["Greer, Ron" ] Re: that damn joni NJC [mags ] Re: that damn joni (aka Joni and Feminism) [MGVal@aol.com] Re: that damn joni (aka Joni and Feminism) [catman ] Pat Metheny ["Mike Hicks" ] chelsea morning/same situation [Chorando6@aol.com] Re: chelsea morning/same situation [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: chelsea morning/same situation [cvickery@danielrealty.com] Re: chelsea morning/same situation [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: chelsea morning/same situation [IVPAUL42@aol.com] may 23!!!!!!!!!!!!!! njc [Steve Dulson ] death row [catman ] Re: Real Live Musicians - Cowboy Junkies at Tower Records NJC [Catherine ] Subject: Re: Clouds & "I Think I Understand" ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: that damn joni (aka Joni and Feminism) ["Kakki" ] Dave Swarbrick "Obituary!!!" (NJC) [Fonimitchell@aol.com] Hey, all you Dylan fans ... (NJC) ["Lori R. Fye" ] RE: Make me smile! ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: that damn joni (aka Joni and Feminism) (md) [MDESTE1@aol.com] Re: that damn joni [Catherine McKay ] Re: that damn joni (aka Joni and Feminism) [Catherine McKay ] Re: that damn joni (aka Joni and Feminism) [Randy Remote ] Re: S&L DVD [Catherine McKay ] Re: chelsea morning/same situation [Catherine McKay Subject: that damn joni Joni: "I am absolutely not a feminist. I prefer the company of men to women, always have. And I'm constantly lumped in with women with whom I don't belong." Sigh. Damn her hide anyway. Obviously she doesn't know what the dictionary definition of a "feminist" is. And for a woman of her intelligence, I am surprised, I admit it! And frankly, being a feminist, or not, has dick-all to do with whether you prefer the company of men over the company of women. Now if Joni were to say she believed women were inferior to men, or that she did not believe they deserved social and economic equality, okay, I'd agree with her when she says she isn't a feminist. But that girl's a feminist through and through, deny it all she will. She's put more than one chauvinistic humanoid in his place, I'll wager, and we all know Joni doesn't believe that she's inferior to anyone in any way because she's female and he's male. Nope. Feminist. I think what she's getting at is that she does not personally have any desire to wage war on men. It's unfortunate that feminism has this idea attached to it. Maybe it was necessary at one time -- the militant aspect, the anger -- but it is certainly not what equality is all about, is it? Kate du Nord ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 18:22:58 +1000 From: john low Subject: Re: Folk down under - NJC Paul, Thanks heaps for posting that great Swarbrick anecdote. It sound sooo Australian!! I lived in country towns for a number of years in the 1970s and early 1980s and remember quite a few bush dances. They usually took place in cavernous old public halls and sometimes in shearing sheds. I can visualize the whole scene. Did you know that Dave Swarbrick lived in the Blue Mountains briefly before he returned to England? He and a Scottish/Australian musician named Alastair Hullett (who had a rip-roaring folk rock band here called Roaring Jack) formed a working and touring duo for a time I think. Anyway, thanks again, John. __________________________________________________________________ Get your free Australian email account at http://www.start.com.au ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 00:33:08 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: that damn joni Kate, This has often raised some ire around here. All I can say is I understand where she is coming from. It's nothing really to do with "feminists" - I think that she doesn't like any kind of labels and the borderlines and polarizing that seem to inevitably come with them. I cringe at categorizations, too, because it seems that sometimes even the most innocuous can provoke pigeonholing and stereotyping. Kakki > Joni: > "I am absolutely not a feminist. I prefer the company of men to women, > always have. And I'm constantly lumped in with women with whom I don't > belong." > > Sigh. Damn her hide anyway. > Obviously she doesn't know what the dictionary definition of a > "feminist" is. And for a woman of her intelligence, I am surprised, I > admit it! And frankly, being a feminist, or not, has dick-all to do with > whether you prefer the company of men over the company of women. > > Now if Joni were to say she believed women were inferior to men, or that > she did not believe they deserved social and economic equality, okay, > I'd agree with her when she says she isn't a feminist. But that girl's a > feminist through and through, deny it all she will. She's put more than > one chauvinistic humanoid in his place, I'll wager, and we all know Joni > doesn't believe that she's inferior to anyone in any way because she's > female and he's male. Nope. Feminist. > > I think what she's getting at is that she does not personally have any > desire to wage war on men. It's unfortunate that feminism has this idea > attached to it. Maybe it was necessary at one time -- the militant > aspect, the anger -- but it is certainly not what equality is all about, > is it? > > Kate du Nord ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 09:46:27 +0200 From: "Greer, Ron" Subject: anyone interested - free give away hi busy going through my stuff last night preparing to move, & i came across an oldish (late 1995) "guitar techniques" magazine, with a full transcription of big yellow taxi (musical notation & tabs) as well as a audio cd with the tuning & rhythm for the various parts of the song. (not joni playing!!) the cd also has a picture of joni on the cover, but it is pretty battered. if anyone is interested in getting it for free - drop me a line off list with your address. otherwise if there is more than one person interested, i can scan the transcription, & convert the audio part to mp3 & e-mail it. ron ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 01:30:31 -0700 From: "Robert Holliston" Subject: Re: that damn joni >Joni: >"I am absolutely not a feminist. I prefer the company of men to women, >always have. And I'm constantly lumped in with women with whom I don't >belong." > There's a book, I don't remember who wrote it, which is a kind of journal of the Rolling Thunder Revue. The author, who was following the tour and who comes off as a bit of a dweeb, recalls telling Joni that the Rolling Thunder tour was perfect because his three favorite female songwriters were represented: Joni, Joan Baez, and Ronee Blakely. She reacted angrily and I don't blame her. Joni and other female singer-songwriters are always being compared only with other women, as if they can't hold their own against the boys. [Personal note: when I was in London in 1977, I remember seeing billboards advertising Joan Armatrading as "the best Black, female songwriter" - talk about marginalization!!] So, Joni has resented being compared only to women songwriters - she has said that her real peers are Dylan and Cohen (she's sometimes included Laura Nyro). Even Joni's champions have had to be men: Prince has spoken very highly of THOSL and Boy George caused sales of C&S to rise. David Crosby was the person who launched her recording career (Joni has publicly dissed both Baez and Judy Collins as being less than helpful to her in the early years). Elvis Costello gave her the highest possible compliments in Vanity Fair. True, Chrissie Hynde has been a highly vocal admirer, as has Annie Lennox. But Joni has resisted any and all flattery by younger female singer/songwriters who have claimed her as an influence, mostly because she doesn't feel their work is significant enough to warrant comparison. So, I don't think her assertion that she's "absolutely not a feminist" has anything to do with her preference of the company of men to women. I think she just got tired of being left out of the big picture, which in her heyday, as today, was dominated by men. As Elvis Costello said, she has very few peers, male or female. I hope she understands that this is a great compliment from a man of genuine talent. That's my two cents, anyway. Roberto _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 06:17:25 -0400 From: mags Subject: Re: that damn joni NJC Kate wrote: > Joni: > "I am absolutely not a feminist. I prefer the company of men to women, > always have. And I'm constantly lumped in with women with whom I don't > belong." > > < Obviously she doesn't know what the dictionary definition of a > "feminist" is. And for a woman of her intelligence, I am surprised, I > admit it! And frankly, being a feminist, or not, has dick-all to do with > whether you prefer the company of men over the company of women.>> *** Kate, I am always interested in a discussion on feminism and who claims to be one, and who does not, why and why not. A few years ago, I graduated with a degree in Women's Studies/English at York University in Toronto. I heard and saw and felt first and second and sometimes third hand, many interpretations of the word 'feminist' . For each person who proclaimed they were a feminist, the word took on a new meaning, for them, and how it fit into their scheme of things. I learned that some "feminists" choose not to wear the "F" word on their political sleeve. I knew a woman who, when she first attended York, walked around campus flying her feminist banner high...because she thought it was a good thing, an important thing. She discovered she had a voice and be damned if she wasnt going to use it. She wasnt going to stifle her politics anymore just because someone didnt like it . What mattered was all the things that feminism meant to her. Feminist politics. Feminism. Feminist. That dirty word. Yea, she knew all about it. She had been on the receiving end of oppression and general disrespect just for being a female and she wasnt going to take it anymore. She told everyone around her. Fight for the cause. She spoke out, ranted, raved, talked, marched and fell into a life of activism. Every December 6th, she went into Vari Hall and lit a candle to remember. She remembered along with hundreds of thousands of other women that you risk staring down the barrel of a gun if you wear feminism on your sleeve. As time went on, new words began to shape her being. She became all too familiar with words, a whole horde of alternative words for "feminist".....she felt the sting of backlash in the form of gay bashing and racism and misogyny and patriarchy and and "everything else that wasnt right wing" bashing and as each year went on, she became a little more afraid of standing up for what she believed in. She learned the meaning of the word fear. She feared for her own safety and for the safety of her sisters as well as her brothers, for she saw they fell into the fox holes of oppression along side her. Cynicism started to take over and she looked at herself in the mirror one day and saw someone she didnt recognize. She was bent and shaped into a state of compliance because of all the every day resistance to the very things she believed in. What happened? She learned pretty damned quickly one day in a hallway, trapped by a stalker from one of her classes, that if she says she is a feminist , she'll be sorry, big time. She learned the hard way that that she best not open her mouth because if she does, one day, the wrong person is going to hear her and make her pay. Feminist. If she says shes a feminist, she knows all about the judgemental waves of resistance that word creates. She knows she may very well get stuffed into the box of everyone else's definition of what she means by that. Instead of mouthing off that she is a feminist, she decided to "live" into feminism in her every day way. The personal is political. So she was told. It didnt take her long to realize that it was a lot safer and more comfortable and less confrontational to deny her feminist politics outwardly. Hopefully she knows she made a difference. Her colleagues and professors still remember her to this day. Her words live on in a collection of stories published by the york university womens collective which gave a channel to her voice. Silenced today, yea, maybe...however, her words live on forever in that book. Mags, who is not a feminist. > > - -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- _~O / /\_, ___/\ /_ - ----------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 07:10:24 EDT From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: that damn joni (aka Joni and Feminism) In a message dated 05/24/2001 1:40:27 AM Pacific Daylight Time, roberto1011@hotmail.com writes: << So, I don't think her assertion that she's "absolutely not a feminist" has anything to do with her preference of the company of men to women. I think she just got tired of being left out of the big picture, which in her heyday, as today, was dominated by men. >> I find it a bit ironic because Roberto's post describes very excellent reasons why she should be a "feminist." Always left out of the big picture, always being "pretty darn good....for a girl." There was a thread a few years ago on an interview with Joni by ani defranco where ani took Joni to task for this "I'm no feminist!" stance. I always find it interesting how people get thrust into the position of hero or spokesperson for a cause when their passions are gunning for something else. It's interesting to see if they can pick up the cause, remain true to their original work or if they just want to mind their own business and do what they want to do. Kakki pointed out that Joni is wary of being labeled because labels are limiting and inevitable dead ends. "Appearing tonight only! Canada's Leading Feminist Song-writing Painter!!" It's bad enough that there was a time when people looked through her songs as simply a kind of National Enquirer tell all of her past boyfriends, can you imagine the horror of having her work reduced to nothing more than a feminist thesis? But in my opinion, Joni unfortunately falls short and misses the bus here. Accolades and recognition sometimes get the bonus prize of responsibilities. It's not a perfect world and there is no getting away from the glass ceiling, the double standard, the male dominated big picture. If she is as smart as she says and as enlightened about philosophy and life as she claims, her statement, (and it's not just one slip of the tongue, it's been an on going assertion by her), that she is "not a feminist....." are poorly chosen words. And this from someone who understands the power of them! By declaring herself "not a feminist," she's gone and done the pigeon holing to others that she does not want for herself. She's gone and labeled "feminists" as those who prefer the company of women to men. She's consistently reduced the idea of feminist to something as trite as that when it's a whole lot more with more at stake. She's gone and belittled the artistry of other women because they are not her "peers." I don't think that anyone is disputing that, it's the labeling that she is participating in here. Baez and Collins and Simon may not be her peers but that's because they are not the same caliber artist as she is, not because they are women. Of course, you also have the whole side topic of what it means to be a feminist. There are those who see it reduced to "abortion on demand," those who see it as "man hating," others who see it as a constricting militant philosophy that threatens the fabric of our society. And I'm sure that feminism is all that, depending on the individual who claims to be one. Imagine the difference if Joni had said: "I'm not a feminist! That's too constricting for me! Better to call me a "humanist" because I think that we all are who we are, labels and sex be damned, just let me have a chance based on my ability!" MG ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 13:02:01 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: that damn joni (aka Joni and Feminism) > Better to call me a "humanist" because I think that we > all are who we are, labels and sex be damned, just let me have a chance based > on my ability!" Mg wrote above and Mags wrote: "It didnt take her long to realize that it was a lot safer and more comfortable and less confrontational to deny her feminist politics outwardly." Rightly or wrongly, Joni gives me the impression she only cares about herself and her suffering when she speaks, tho in her songs, Cherokee Louise and Ethiopis for example, tell a different story. To call oneself a humanist may seem appropriate but certainly here in the UK this equals being an athiest. In the fact the Humanist Society is vociferous in it's anti God stance. Being a 'feminist' is not solely a female thing. Many of us men are feminists too. Equality is what it is about. People, men and women, being pigeon holed for their sex is not about equality but about fear and distrust. This does not just happen to women. it also happens to men. men are ostracised and marginalised too for not being what society demands a man should be. Women are a part of this ostracism also.(I know-my experience in being talented in an area women consider theirs has brought much ostracism from women). All of us, men and women, are constantly engaged(or should be) in the battle to be oneself. That is life's major battle, to be who you are despite all the opposition. Far too many of us think we know what is best for others, think we know what a man or a woman should be. Such thoughts are fear based. The fact that many back up their fears up with 'religion' doesn't give it any legitimacy, it just makes their fear all the more obvious to those who will open their eyes. I found the withdrawal of Mags friend to be very sad, shrinking back and not being oneslef, giving in to the threats, the intimidation, going along with the pack. This is not good and ultimately will bring deep unhappiness to her friend. A life lived in lies is a waste. Not that I don't understand. I do. I have faced threats and intimidation much of my life for daring to be myself. I understand only too well the longing the yearning to 'belong', to be accepted. When I was younger I tried to do just that. It almost cost me my life because of the way it affected me, not because of others. Self hatred kills. Today, I'd rather die being myself at the hands of another than die thru my own hand because I wasn't myself. Hiding who you are is far too painful a burden to bear. 'I'd rather be hated for who I am than loved for who I am not'. - -- bw colin BRO GC, 950i 940,864, 260, 890,Silver 830 and 270, Passap 6000 Duo80 colin@tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk http://www.geocities.com/tantra_apso/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 08:06:44 EDT From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: that damn joni (aka Joni and Feminism) (md) I think the meaning of her statement was somewhat different than the commentary here is implying. She follows that statement with another equally important and that is that OTHERS are lumping her in with other women who in essence are probably "card carrying" feminists who represent the meaning of the word itself in the most political of senses. THAT is what Joni is shucking off. She doesnt want to have to appear at free concerts to support a political cause and all the other "responsibilities" that go with carrying the flag.It may be why she has never appeared at a Lilith Faire concert thinking it is too political. The political agenda has usurped the credibility from artists in the past when they adopted the political agenda as theirs.Who remembers that Dick Gregory was ever a real performing commedian. From such songs as Three Great Stimulants I take that Joni realizes that ultimately pure politics doesnt solve much. Thats how I took the quote in its context. marcel ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 08:41:16 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: S&L DVD Catherine McKay wrote: > --- Vince Lavieri wrote: > > Today amazon alerted me that my dvd on S&L has been > > shipped! > > > > So it is finally out of whatever limbo it was in and > > I will post about > > it when it comes! > > > > (the Rev) Vince > > I ordered through CDNow - and mine also shipped today. > Wonder who'll get theirs first? Probably you because > you're not an alien like me. Well I hope someone gives us a report on the %.1 sound mix. If it is good then it will be worth buying. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 09:00:35 -0500 From: "Mike Hicks" Subject: Pat Metheny To the person out yonder who was asking about the Pat Metheny New Chatauqua album. Jaco Pastorius does not play on it. It is Pat and his accoustic guitar. It is beautiful. Mike ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 09:33:44 EDT From: Chorando6@aol.com Subject: chelsea morning/same situation Reading the posts about misheard lyrics and confused meanings adding a certain something to a song...I for many years believed the line 'With heaven full of astronauts and the lord on death row' to be with heaven full of astronauts and the lord under thrown. Which i thought was joni playing about with the idea of something rather unspectacularly being over thrown by a thing far inferior in quality and what it has to offer us. The battle between technology and spirituality, reaching out, destroying the mysteries, the hopes the prayers the magic and ultimately faith. Having to solve all the riddles and for what?? The thing is i thought it was a wonderful line and held it up as one of her greatest and most deeply moving. I was touched by it in a complete and profound manner. So what say you? Still i sent up my prayer wondering where it had to go with heaven full of astronauts and the lord under thrown I still love my interpretation and when i sing along I sing underthrown...more out of habit i think, but also theres a little bit of me that resonates with that rather than the written lyric. All my love and all you fellow islanders enjoy trhe bank holiday and don't forget your factor 45. Clive ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 09:53:11 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: chelsea morning/same situation In a message dated 5/24/01 9:51:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Chorando6@aol.com writes: << I for many years believed the line 'With heaven full of astronauts and the lord on death row' to be with heaven full of astronauts and the lord under thrown. >> I've always thought of her line "the lord on Death Row" as a reference to Charles Manson. Paul ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 09:20:02 -0500 From: cvickery@danielrealty.com Subject: Re: chelsea morning/same situation Paul opined <> Really?? I can't imagine that Joni would be that "into" Manson. I always just assumed it was a reference to the whole "God is Dead" school of thought.... (As an aside - intersting capitalization.... "lord" but "Death Row." Just an observation, not a critique.) Cindy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 10:25:24 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: chelsea morning/same situation <> YUCK! Why Manson? I always figured she wrote that as a response to the "God is Dead" school of thought in the late 60's/early 70's. Manson as Lord? Even *I* would gladly flip the switch! Bob NP: Alison Krauss, "That Kind of Love" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 10:27:01 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: chelsea morning/same situation In a message dated 5/24/01 10:22:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, cvickery@danielrealty.com writes: << Paul opined <> Really?? I can't imagine that Joni would be that "into" Manson. I always just assumed it was a reference to the whole "God is Dead" school of thought.... (As an aside - intersting capitalization.... "lord" but "Death Row." Just an observation, not a critique.) Cindy >> Not that she was "into" Manson at all; instead, I think she is giving us a cynical take on the media reports of the time. By the way, according to AP style, Death Row is capped when you are referring to a particular one. And I lowercase "lord" because I don't think she was referring to the deity. I don't remember how it appears in the lyrics on the album. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 07:47:08 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: may 23!!!!!!!!!!!!!! njc Kakki wrote: >Dear Terry aka Dr. Sig - >Have a fantastic birthday and may all your dreams ;-) come true in the >coming year! Ja, vatever zose dreams might be... :) - -- ######################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://www.tinkersown.com "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://www.scdh.org "The Living Tradition Concert Series" http://www.thelivingtradition.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 16:11:55 +0100 From: catman Subject: death row I took it to mean that belief in a supreme being was dying out, not a reference to Mr Manson. and that Man had now put himself in Heaven and in a postion of worship for such an achievement. As appalling as anyone's behaviour might be, 'pulling the switch' is very much against my spiritual/moral beliefs. I have never understood how Capital Punishment sits so well with Xtians, when you consider the person they purport to follow. - -- bw colin BRO GC, 950i 940,864, 260, 890,Silver 830 and 270, Passap 6000 Duo80 colin@tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk http://www.geocities.com/tantra_apso/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 14:19:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Real Live Musicians - Cowboy Junkies at Tower Records NJC - --- Mark or Travis wrote: > ...Last week I walked over there to browse > (I rarely buy > from Tower anymore - too pricey) and happened to see > fliers for an > in-store listener appreciation concert by the Cowboy > Junkies. I've > been a fan of this band for several years Synchronicity hits again. (I think Jim Lamadoo is a big CJs fan too.) When I logged onto my yahoo acct just now, I saw something at the top of the home page about a CJs "chat event" (whatever that is) tonight. If you're interested, check the Yahoo *Canada* site - which is either www.yahoo.ca or http://ca.yahoo.com/ (same difference). I presume they'll be chatting with the band? I dunno - when you click on it, you have to register, so I didn't go any further than that. Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 10:45:59 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Subject: Re: Clouds & "I Think I Understand" I used to play that song on 12 string though they probably weren't the right chords, I will have to check out the ones on jmdl.... >>Or how about using a 12 string or doubling the guitar several times, like My Secret Place? The bluegrass version might be a little scary!<< ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 14:31:34 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Annie Sofie von Otter meets Elvis Costello (VLJC) Just picked up this new (strange) CD, and though this opera star has a good voice, I'm not sure I like this disc (yet). Elvis Costello sings very little on the CD, but provides a lot of the instrumentals. I noticed in the liner notes, Annie says "There are some people I'd like to thank and since this is my pop record I know I'm allowed: Joni, Carole, Judy C., Mama Cass Elliot, Barbra et al whose songs and voices I have always loved and who certainly inspired me." You noticed she put Joni's name first? :~) Jimmy NP : David Byrne "Look into the Eyeball" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 13:12:12 -0700 From: "brian symes" Subject: Re:Coyote and Scarlet. A fantasy In an earlier thread we talked about Sam Shepard "Coyote" as the writer Bob Dylan hired. Also we talked about Ronee B as a model for Shades of Scarlett. Last night Playing Blue again for the Millionth time I wished I was a fly on the wall of the Recording Studio during the recording of California JT, Sneeky Pete and Russ making those Warm,Worn chords. NP Cowboy Junkies, Oregon Hill (Hillside Mansions ringed with rose gardens sloping down to the boys in crack alleys in their lowridin 63 Chevys) Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 13:02:17 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: that damn joni (aka Joni and Feminism) MG wrote: > By declaring herself "not a feminist," she's gone and done the pigeon holing > to others that she does not want for herself. She's gone and labeled > "feminists" as those who prefer the company of women to men. She's > consistently reduced the idea of feminist to something as trite as that when > it's a whole lot more with more at stake. I don't know MG, it seems she has had this challenge to call herself a feminist thrust in her face for years and maybe she has become exasperated with repeatedly addressing it. I agree her words written on the flat dimension of the page sound more dismissive than what we would expect of her. In many past interviews she has articulated her views on the subject more thoughtfully. > She's gone and belittled the > artistry of other women because they are not her "peers." I don't think that > anyone is disputing that, it's the labeling that she is participating in > here. Baez and Collins and Simon may not be her peers but that's because they > are not the same caliber artist as she is, not because they are women. I have also sometimes cringed when she has appeared to diss other female artists because it just seems mean. Then again, some interviewers have wanted her to lump her in with artists like Madonna. Nothing against Madonna, but can you blame her for wanting to dissassociate herself from Madonna's artistic visions? "Case of You" simply doesn't compare to "Like a Virgin" and there's no point trying to lump them together in one big generic female singer songwriter pigeonhole. > Of course, you also have the whole side topic of what it means to be a > feminist. There are those who see it reduced to "abortion on demand," those > who see it as "man hating," others who see it as a constricting militant > philosophy that threatens the fabric of our society. And I'm sure that > feminism is all that, depending on the individual who claims to be one. There's the problem. Most people don't objectively think of a generic and innocuous dictionary definition when they hear the term "feminist" or any other label. They see it through their own interpretation and perspective. I can just see Joni calling herself a feminist and then having the various factions of feminism attacking her for not being a "true" feminist. > Imagine the difference if Joni had said: "I'm not a feminist! That's too > constricting for me! Better to call me a "humanist" because I think that we > all are who we are, labels and sex be damned, just let me have a chance based > on my ability!" I've always thought of her as a humanist and an individualist. But, as colin pointed out, even calling herself a humanist is fraught with misinterpretation because in England and also in parts of the U.S. it is equated with athiesm. Joni's not an athiest so those who now claim the term "humanist" would probably take her to task for appropriating "their" term. Marcel also made a good point that if she affiliates with a particular label, then the politically active gatekeepers of that label would probably pressure her to be appearing at their events and perhaps taking on certain aspects of their agenda to which she may disagree. What a hassle, really, and I don't think any of us would want to be put in such a position ourselves. I've always maintained that she has done her part in advancing the best and truest aspects of humanism, feminism and liberalism and I don't think she owes anyone more. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 21:38:34 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: that damn joni (aka Joni and Feminism) > I've always maintained that she has done her part in advancing > the best and truest aspects of humanism, feminism and liberalism true > and I don't > think she owes anyone more. I can't see how she owes anyone anything. She's just a person getting on with her life like the rest of us. I don't feel any of us owe anything to anyone. > > > Kakki - -- bw colin BRO GC, 950i 940,864, 260, 890,Silver 830 and 270, Passap 6000 Duo80 colin@tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk http://www.geocities.com/tantra_apso/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 16:39:45 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Travis, Susie Hug, and Joni Just in time for the discussion about Joni and feminism, Fran Healy from Travis said yesterday in an online Rolling Stone article, "Joni Mitchell writes brilliantly and is very feminine." He also adds, "I can't say I know women very well because you can't read people's minds, but it appears to me that there are very few female artists who are very successful at expressing themselves in that way. There's Joni, there's Kate Bush. There's a few, but I think guys are better at bullshitting basically." I don't know if I understand what he's saying -- and if I do, I don't agree - -- but the entire article can be found at: http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/rolls/20010523/en/travis_back_hug_on_new_cd_1.htm l Take care, --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 13:42:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Alison E Subject: Re: Real Live Musicians - Cowboy Junkies at Tower Records NJC nice review, mark! i used to really love the cowboy junkies, the trinity sessions album sends me back to a *very* specific and beautiful time. i love it. its nice to think they are still around and kicking. maybe a new album to put on my to-buy list. alison e. in nyc - --- Mark or Travis wrote: > The Seattle Tower Records which is located near the > Experience Music > Project & the Space Needle is within walking > distance of my place of > employment. Last week I walked over there to browse > (I rarely buy > from Tower anymore - too pricey) and happened to see > fliers for an > in-store listener appreciation concert by the Cowboy > Junkies. > > Mark in Seattle Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 22:37:08 +0100 From: "Paul Castle" Subject: Make me smile! Life is full of little surprises! 9.15pm. Needed something from the shops so jumped in the car. Turned the radio on - the voice said "Not only is she a brilliant painter whose pictures hang in some of the best art galleries in the world - Not only is she an amazing lyricist who puts all the rest of us in the shade - Not only is she a fantastic guitarist with a gorgeous singing voice - She also happens to be as sexy as a field of barley in a July breeze - - - here's Joni Mitchell singing 'Barangrill'. And the DJ? (would you 'Adam an' Eve' it?) Steve Harley of Cockney Rebel PaulC ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 17:54:43 EDT From: Fonimitchell@aol.com Subject: Dave Swarbrick "Obituary!!!" (NJC) Last Summer a local newspaper published Dave Swarbrick's obituary. It was very well written and factually spot-on, with one slight error - he wasn't dead! Dave had been poorly, but was well enough to appear at last year's Fairport Convention Cropredy festival, where he could be found signing copies of his own obituary and selling them for #1.00 with proceeds to charity. All good wishes, Clive. NP: "Argus" - Wishbone Ash ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 15:21:59 -0700 (PDT) From: "Lori R. Fye" Subject: Hey, all you Dylan fans ... (NJC) As it's Bob's 60th (!!!) birthday today, WXPN in Philly has been celebrating all day with Dylan (and similar) tunes. http://www.xpn.org Enjoy! Lori, whose Sonicnet isn't working today, in DC ~ Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 19:23:18 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Make me smile! my!!! this is such a beautiful thing to say!!! wallyK - -----Mensaje original----- De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de Paul Castle Enviado el: Jueves, 24 de Mayo de 2001 06:37 p.m. Para: jmdl Asunto: Make me smile! She also happens to be as sexy as a field of barley in a July breeze - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 19:03:08 EDT From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: that damn joni (aka Joni and Feminism) (md) Excellent review of the far reaching aspects of this subject kakki. I dont know whether I qualify to participate in this discussion but Im finding it very interesting. marcel ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 20:54:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: that damn joni - --- Kate wrote: > Joni: > "I am absolutely not a feminist. I prefer the > company of men to women, > always have. And I'm constantly lumped in with women > with whom I don't > belong." > > Sigh. Damn her hide anyway. > Obviously she doesn't know what the dictionary > definition of a > "feminist" is. And for a woman of her intelligence, > I am surprised, I > admit it! Another here. It pisses me off too. I wonder if the world Joni lives in is so rarified that she becomes out of touch with reality in some respects? It's not as if a celebrity can probably just hop in the car and go down to the local convenience store to pick up milk and cigarettes, can they? Maybe she still believes that being a "feminist" makes you a man-hater and a bra-burner! Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 21:00:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: that damn joni (aka Joni and Feminism) - --- MGVal@aol.com wrote: > > Imagine the difference if Joni had said: "I'm not a > feminist! That's too > constricting for me! Better to call me a "humanist" > because I think that we > all are who we are, labels and sex be damned, just > let me have a chance based > on my ability!" > Hmm. I wonder if this was another of those "context is everything" situations. Like - what did she say before and after she said "I'm not a feminist." We're reading someone's version of what she said and they may easily have left something out. Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 21:03:25 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: that damn joni In a message dated 5/24/01 9:02:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, anima_rising@yahoo.ca writes: << Maybe she still believes that being a "feminist" makes you a man-hater and a bra-burner! >> Doesn't it? If not in practice, then certainly in perception, and perception IS reality. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 18:07:01 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: chelsea morning/same situation "With heaven full of astronauts And the Lord on deathrow" I, too have interpreted this line as a reference to Manson. If I remember right, he, as so many cult leaders, considered himself Christ returned. I think Joni was being sarcastic (and cryptic). What could be more out of whack than people strapping themselves to big roman candles and propelling themselves into the heavens, and Jesus a mass-murderer. Still, she sends up her prayer, wondering who is there to hear.... RR IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 5/24/01 10:22:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > cvickery@danielrealty.com writes: > > << Paul opined < Row" as a reference to > Charles Manson.>> > > Really?? I can't imagine that Joni would be that "into" Manson. > I always just assumed it was a reference to the whole "God is > Dead" school of thought.... > > (As an aside - intersting capitalization.... "lord" but "Death > Row." Just an observation, not a critique.) > > Cindy >> > > Not that she was "into" Manson at all; instead, I think she is giving us a > cynical take on the media reports of the time. By the way, according to AP > style, Death Row is capped when you are referring to a particular one. And I > lowercase "lord" because I don't think she was referring to the deity. I > don't remember how it appears in the lyrics on the album. > > Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 18:13:19 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: that damn joni (aka Joni and Feminism) Maybe "I'm not a feminist" means.... 1. I'm a masculinist 2. I don't want to be equal to men-who would 3. Being a woman in pop music has actually been an advantage RR (a feminist-as we all should be) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 21:33:55 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: chelsea morning/same situation In a message dated 5/24/01 9:13:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, guitarzan@saber.net writes: << "With heaven full of astronauts And the Lord on deathrow" I, too have interpreted this line as a reference to Manson. If I remember right, he, as so many cult leaders, considered himself Christ returned. I think Joni was being sarcastic (and cryptic). What could be more out of whack than people strapping themselves to big roman candles and propelling themselves into the heavens, and Jesus a mass-murderer. Still, she sends up her prayer, wondering who is there to hear.... RR >> Exactly what I was trying to say. Thanks for putting it more clearly than I apparently did. Indeed, Manson WAS claiming to be the messiah, or something akin to that. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 21:45:19 EDT From: Relayer211@aol.com Subject: Re: chelsea morning/same situation In a message dated 5/24/01 9:40:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, IVPAUL42@aol.com writes: << << "With heaven full of astronauts And the Lord on deathrow" >> To me, she's saying the only "heaven" is outer space which is where humans explore and conquer. For those people, that's their heaven replacement. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 22:47:34 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: manson sjc but didn't the manson thing happen in 1969? i remember i was a child when sharon tate was murdered. why would charles manson come back in the same situation, a song that's so personal. a person is praying and she finds that heaven is not what it used to be -- even god's days are counted. in any case, i've always been obsessed with charles manson; it's just that i had forgotten. the tate crime had enormous repercussion here when i was a kid. yes, i'm sure it was 1969 because that was also the year that we prayed rosaries at school for god to kill chilean president salvador alende, a leftist. you see, my teachers were the kind of roman catholics that were not unlike manson himself. i was 8. i would hear stories about kids that had been raped or mutilated by the communists because they were praying in their catholic schools. all this while i was PRAYING AT A CATHOLIC SCHOOL. so i felt like i would become a catholic martyr any moment, and my parents would put a plate with my name on it on one of the pews at church. then the manson crimes happened. it was winter here. i remember now. the man on the moon, some war in the middle east [the 7-day war?], the manson crimes, alende in chile. the communists around the corner, ready to stick things into your body if you didn't abjure the pope. the swastika on manson's forehead, i remember that too. and a few years later, i joined the communist party and my little sister, who was 11 at the time, was kidnapped and tortured by the secret police. when my father found her, my sister was a zombie. they must have raped her too, my parents never told me. my sister became a thief, a slut, then she became bulimic, and finally psychotic. both my parents are bipolar, so there we were. my sister left home one april afternoon, some ten years ago. she had about $3 and a sweater. she turned up a year later. she was living with a guy and breeding beagles. and you know what helped my sister? the beagles. she has been breeding dogs for ten years and she has come to terms with many things. i love my sister more than anybody else in the world. i taught her how to talk and to walk and how to read and write before she went to school. when we were really little, one of our favorite games was to make believe that we were in canada, go figure. in the winter of 1969, when the manson crimes and that war and all the rest happened, my sister hit me in the head with one of my mom's stilettos and they had to give me 3 stitches. wallyK ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 21:51:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: S&L DVD - --- Jerry Notaro wrote: > > Well I hope someone gives us a report on the %.1 > sound mix. If it is > good then it will be worth buying. > Jerry, I wouldn't recognize a %.1 sound mix if it bit me in the ass! I'll be listening to it/viewing it on my PC (in the hope of some day buying a real DVD player, but there are urgent and pressing matters that prevent this from becoming a reality for quite some time.) Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 21:53:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: chelsea morning/same situation - --- IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 5/24/01 9:51:24 AM Eastern > Daylight Time, > Chorando6@aol.com writes: > > << I for many years believed the line 'With heaven > full of astronauts and the lord on death row' to be > with heaven full of > astronauts and the lord under thrown. >> > > I've always thought of her line "the lord on Death > Row" as a reference to > Charles Manson. Wow, this is interesting. I just took it as the "God is dead" thing that was so much in the news when this song came out. I kind of like Clive's "Lord under thrown" thing too. > Paul Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 21:53:21 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: chelsea morning/same situation In a message dated 5/24/01 9:50:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Relayer211@aol.com writes: << << << "With heaven full of astronauts And the Lord on deathrow" >> To me, she's saying the only "heaven" is outer space which is where humans explore and conquer. For those people, that's their heaven replacement. >> I can only say that I think your interpretation seems to ignore the context of the time and location in which she wrote the song. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 21:58:32 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: NJC that damn joni (aka Joni and Feminism) Randy Remote wrote: > RR (a feminist-as we all should be) Right on, my brother! (the Rev) Vince, a feminist from way back, card-carrying member of NOW ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 21:58:59 EDT From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: chelsea morning/same situation In a message dated 05/24/2001 7:08:17 AM Pacific Daylight Time, IVPAUL42@aol.com writes: << << I for many years believed the line 'With heaven full of astronauts and the lord on death row' to be with heaven full of astronauts and the lord under thrown. >> I've always thought of her line "the lord on Death Row" as a reference to Charles Manson. >> Hmm. Interesting thought. I always took it the "lord" as being "God." In the early 70's or so, I can remember a Time or Newsweek magazine cover that had the face of Jesus with the caption: "God is Dead" or something like that. MG - a record two posts in one day! ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2001 #231 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?