From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2001 #197 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Saturday, April 28 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 197 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. Information on the 4th "Annual" New England JoniFest: http://www.jmdl.com/jfne2001.cfm The Joni Chat Room: http://www.jmdl.com/chat.cfm ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Quadrophonic Joni - Jungle Line [M.Russell@iaea.org] Re: Ella sings Coyote NJC ["hell" ] Nice opus if you can get it [Gordon Mackie ] RE: Ella sings Coyote NJC ["Wally Kairuz" ] Spaced out! ["Paul Castle" ] Last Blue - BOTT Post [Mitch327@aol.com] Blue versus Blood on the Tracks [Emily Kirk Gray ] Re: the album form njc [philipf@tinet.ie] We Have Heaven (njc) [asandstrom@macromedia.com] Re: the album form njc ["Victor Johnson" ] Joni gets their feet up to dance [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Joni miscarriage [Steve Dulson ] [none] ["shane mattison" ] Re: Last Blue - BOTT Post (md) [MDESTE1@aol.com] Mae Robertson's "Circle Game" [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Joni & Leonard Cohen [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Ella sings Coyote NJC [Catherine McKay ] Re: Joni & Leonard Cohen (long) ["Kakki" ] Re: Nice opus if you can get it NJC [Catherine McKay ] Re: the album form [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: the album form [catman ] Midwestern Joni fest??? ["kerry" ] Virus question NJC ["kerry" ] Re: Joni & Leonard Cohen [Catherine McKay ] RE: Joni & Leonard Cohen (long) ["Deb Messling" ] remove ["Chris Reynolds" ] Re: Joni & Leonard Cohen (long) [Relayer211@aol.com] Re: Joni & Leonard Cohen ["Kakki" ] Re: Joni & Leonard Cohen (long) ["Kakki" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 09:15:13 +0200 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: Re: Quadrophonic Joni - Jungle Line On Thu, 26 Apr 2001 21:54:33 EDT BachelorNumero2@aol.com wrote: > you know? A Quad version of "Hissing" was underneath > .....and the asking price........ $4.00. Wow! What a find!!! > I ran home to play this rare find and about flipped when > I heard "The Jungle Line".........If you channel the > speakers a certain way it pulls out the drums!!!!! > and what's left is an ACOUSTIC version of the song!!!!!!!! So can you hear her guitar playing clearly??? If so, is there any possibility that you could make a recording of the acoustic version of the song? I'm sure that this would be very interesting not only to me, but also to all the other JMDL guitarists. Marian Vienna NP: West Point - Jonatha Brooke & The Story - from Plumb ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 20:26:11 +1200 From: "hell" Subject: Re: Ella sings Coyote NJC wallyk wrote: > you're right, mark! i was making a hasty generalization. what i had in mind > when i wrote that post was ella singing some of the stuff she recorded in [i > think] the late 60's [the one that goes ''humpty dumpty my head over > yooooooooouuuuuu...'', i don't remember the lyrics], te kanawa singing cole > porter and bolton singing ''nessun dorma''. Those last four words make me feel ill. Please tell me it's not true, or that it's not the Bolton I'm thinking of? Hell ____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://www.nbls.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 09:49:45 +0100 From: Gordon Mackie Subject: Nice opus if you can get it Hmmmm... some muddled thoughts from me now... Gershwin was dogged all his life by musicologists and other 'so called' experts who couldn't decide how to classify his music (that sounds familiar) . Notably, the American composer Virgil Thompson referred to 'Porgy and Bess' as no more than a collection of 32 bar songs (this argument sound familiar) rather than a whole operatic work. Indeed Gershwin claimed to have invented a new idiom.....the Amercian folk opera ('Don't call me a folk singer" rings in my ears). The parallels between Gershwin and Joni begin to emerge thick and fast Re Operatic singing and singning opera (clearly not the same thing), all I can say is Michael Bolton- I rest my case- didn't he do a duet with Joni- oh well you can't win 'em all. Have a great weekend y'all Gordon from Glasgow ( where oil in puddles make taffeta patterns that run down the drain...or stank as it colloquially know here) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 06:48:25 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Ella sings Coyote NJC yes, hell, i'm afraid it IS true.... wallyK, so HAPPY that hell is baaaaaaaaaaaaack!!!!! - -----Mensaje original----- De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de hell Enviado el: Viernes, 27 de Abril de 2001 05:26 a.m. Para: Wally Kairuz; joni@smoe.org Asunto: Re: Ella sings Coyote NJC > bolton singing ''nessun dorma''. Those last four words make me feel ill. Please tell me it's not true, or that it's not the Bolton I'm thinking of? Hell ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 12:41:35 +0100 From: "Paul Castle" Subject: Spaced out! I read that Canadian astronaut Chris Hadfield is the first Canadian ever to perform a spacewalk on his trip to deliver Canadarm2, (the next-generation robotic arm), to the International Space Station - I was pleased to see he is taking (has taken?) Joni Mitchell CDs in his 'travel kit'. My guess - Blue for 'This Flight Tonight' "Up there's a heaven, down there's a town Blackness everywhere and little lights shine" or Hejira for "Refuge of the Roads" (to remind him to take a photograph of the earth on his way back) PaulC ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 08:09:38 EDT From: Mitch327@aol.com Subject: Last Blue - BOTT Post Don, the "comparison" was all done in fun. I just came to the realization that for me personally, these are probably MY favorite two albums, and I was curious about what other people on the list thought about them. Marcel, it is interesting why we all have "favorites." Some of mine are: Joe Cocker "Mad Dogs and Englishmen," the first album I ever bought, and it has that amazing version of Dylan's "Girl From The North Country" by Joe and Leon Russell. Allman Brothers "Live At The Fillmore," talk about staying power, this album still amazes me. In my search for the perfect electric blues music, I realize I've had it since I was 16 years old. Woodstock "Film Soundtrack," Santana's "Soul Sacrifice, nuff said! Seriously, it's a historic record. Joni 'Hejira," Memories of my youth (I was 16 when it came out), and of hearing "Song For Sharon" for the first time on the radio and being more interested in hearing the song instead of kissing my girlfriend. Joni "Blue," the one Joni album I always reach for (before Hejira). The sensitivity, the sparseness, the lyrics, one of the greatest albums about the ups and downs of love and relationships (similar to BOTT, a lot of which concerns itself with lost love, I think). The Clash "Sandinista," I know, I know it should have only been a double album. I waited in line on a hot NYC sidewalk all day with my friends to get tickets for their shows at Bonds Casino in Times Square before they recorded this album. I was their opening night and I think the next to last night (they played 10+ shows). They have said the album was recorded in 3 weeks shortly after playing the shows, and has a lot of NYC feel to it (which is special to me), parts of it were also recorded at Hendrix's "Electric Ladyland" studio in Greenwich Village (also special). But the real memory for me, was driving down to Greenwich Village the night the album came out (at certain record stores there, you could buy the British Import of the album weeks before it cam out in the US) to buy it, and driving up Central Park West afterwards past the throngs of peoples who were holding a vigil outside of the Dakota where John Lennon had been shot only the night before. I won't bore anyone any longer.... Mitch NP - Nothing, my sister-in-law who is visiting is sleeping in the next room! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 08:14:43 -0400 From: Emily Kirk Gray Subject: Blue versus Blood on the Tracks alison e.! that quotation from ani about the joni/bob thing was PRICELESS! thank you so much for typing it out -- it made my morning. what an honest, cheerful, interesting assessment... wonderful. - -- emily, who thinks blonde on blonde is bob's finest, no question -- and who thinks there is room for both bob and joni in any music lover's library...but who also thinks that genius comes in multitudes of forms and is happy about that... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 13:39:25 +0100 From: philipf@tinet.ie Subject: Re: the album form njc Thanks for all your replies. I will try to reply to all during a busy day. First up is Victor > > That's not wrong at all. We're talking about art here, and technical and > financial reasons have nothing to do with art even though they are necessary > for the distribution of said art. Creating an album is a really involved > process and is a work of art in itself. > > Victor I know we're talking about art. I presume you would agree that an individual song like UFG released on a single is also art. There seems to be a collective assumption that albums are somehow more worthy and intellectual than singles. The record industry encourages that because there's no profit in singles. That kind of thinking peaked in the 70's when Led Zepplin refused to allow Stairway To Heaven to be released as a single. It was a huge radio hit and the public paid full album prices for the song. I like singles. They get to the point , they trigger memories, plus you can hum them. Most of the big changes in popular music have been due to the impact of singles - I Want To Hold Your Hand, Like A Rolling Stone, Born To Run, Anarchy In The UK, The Message etc etc. It's an ongoing mystery to me why Man From Mars has never been released as a single. It's one of the all time great ballads. Yet there it remains on an underpromoted album and unheard by the population at large. Philip ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 09:29:52 -0400 From: asandstrom@macromedia.com Subject: We Have Heaven (njc) So, seeing as how I've volunteered to organize the order or performers at Ashara's, I guess I can advocate for us doing a rendition of "We Have Heaven." Anyone who wants in, email me. If we have enough interest (probably about 5 or 6 of us) I'll figure out a way to write out the parts and email it to everyone. lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 09:49:59 -0400 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Re: the album form njc > There seems to be a collective assumption that albums are somehow more > worthy and intellectual than singles. The record industry encourages > that because there's no profit in singles. That kind of thinking peaked > in the 70's when Led Zepplin refused to allow Stairway To Heaven to be > released as a single. It was a huge radio hit and the public paid full > album prices for the song. And they got a great album of songs. YES "Fragile" is another example of a great album, which included Roundabout, Long Distance Run Around, Heart of the Sunrise, and the little tracks like We Have Heaven, which made it really different from any other album ever released though somewhat similiar to Jethro Tull's "Aqualung". Then you have albums that have one or two good songs that are promoted heavily on the radio as singles while the rest of the songs stink. I don't think that is the case here and with artists of high caliber like Led Zeppelin, Yes, Tull, or Joni, you're going to find them releasing albums of songs because they have what it takes to put together an album which is a hell of lot of work I bought Zeppelin 4(this is a true story) after my parents took me to a seminar on the evils of rocknroll. The whole controversy about Stairway to Heaven backwards peaked my curiosity so the next time I went to the mall, I picked it up. To tell you the truth, my favorite song off of the album is Going to California though I like the rest of the songs as well. Anyway, some artists are going to be best off producing albums and some are better off in a singles format, ie. especially those who write a bunch of crappy songs with a few gems. There is nothing wrong with albums. An album, as a whole, I find more impressive than a single because of its very virtue, several great songs instead of just one. And I have never really been interested in single too much as I've always found if I really like a song then I most likely will want to hear more by that artist, hence buy the album. I avoid listening to the radio these days because I usually can't find anything I really want to listen to. I think you're trying to tackle some marketing issues here but there are many angles to it. "Man From Mars" is a great song but whether it would do well as a single...I don't know. Perhaps. But with someone like Joni, if she puts out a new recording, I immediately buy the whole album and wouldn't even think of just buying a single. And I think that's how the majority, if not all, of her fans are. Victor Johnson http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson "Just beyond the morning falls the river of your dreams, Escaping from the day these wild creatures run away." Victor Johnson ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 10:42:57 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Joni gets their feet up to dance Here's a blurb I found interesting about the Boomtang Boys' cover of BSN...this one of course appeared on our Volume 4 (The Power of Cheese) even though it's more camp than cheese, and Vince, one you can probably use in your aerobics classes... Bob NP: Shelby Lynne, "Why Can't You Be?" "The best of the lot are Billy Idol's "Dancing With Myself" (sung by Kim Esty), T-Rex's "Bang A Gong" (sung by Radiate's Devin Mason) and the hidden track, Joni Mitchell's "Both Sides Now" (sung by Emese Zaduban, an artist The Boomtang Boys might sign to its label). Why the crystalline wistfulness of "Both Sides Now" is buried in the hidden portion of the CD, even after an alternate hidden mix of Hot Butter's "Popcorn" has pumped its course, is a mystery. Melodic, reflective and a song with some substance, it just might be the recognizable hit Virgin International needs to break pop charts all over the world. "For some reason, somebody at the record label thought that putting on a cover of a Judy Collins song -- that's the way they put it. It's Joni Mitchell but Judy had the big hit -- would actually be detrimental to the sales of the album, which just blew my mind. So (our A&R guy) decided it would be put on the album as a hidden track." Paul, who DJs six nights a week locally and has developed a keen sense for what the movers and shakers want (the reason record labels have gone to The Boomtang Boys in the first place to get the team's treatment on singles), says he actually uses that track to reinstate life to the dancefloor when he's played a "bad" song. "Depending on the night, 'cause I play two very house nights and wouldn't play it on those nights, but the more commercial nights, if I screw up and play something that clears the floor, I grab it and put it on and I'll get all the people back on the floor again." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 07:49:30 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Joni miscarriage janine sherman wrote: >I just feel sad for her = >and can understand even more of her melancholy. >http://www.jmdl.com/articles/docs/961208tm.cfm Very interesting article. I had not read it before. It was good to read some actual comments by Myrtle. - -- ######################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://www.tinkersown.com "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://www.cpmusic.com/scdh "The Living Tradition Concert Series" http://www.thelivingtradition.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 09:33:16 -0600 From: "shane mattison" Subject: [none] Bob wrote: <> hey bob... i getting impressed by the good archery you are displaying in your joni content...you keep to your mark like a zen man with your takes on ms. mitchell... i got a question...bob, i'm sure you could help out...i mentioned rumours of 'A Case of You' having a Cohen connection...the self-confessed 'ladies man' was brought up today by others...rose mentioned ' Rainy Night House'... i thoroughly enjoyed the fair and respectful take on sam shepard...which seems to have gone dry lately... so what about leonard...was his face 'on the back of a cartoon coaster, in the blue t.v. screen light?' not that it matters horribly...but, maybe its like that movie on beethoven...it seems there was 'a case of you' in ludvig's life and we learned much about him when we discovered this woman in his consciousness...it tells us about his inspiration...his drive...grace... ideals...pain...anger...obsession... shakespeare had a mystery woman in his consciousness... does leonard play a role in joni's that might be quite significant? reading today of joni's 'dumping chuck', in chuck's recall anyway, was it really just for that green card? somehow i doubt it...there's pain in 'I Had A King'... so shane's touching on difficult turf again, but one that is significant...who do you think Bob (et al) that joni loved , and therefore would still play a role in her creative consciousness? my little take: visiting the mendel last summer, i was struck by how the paintings were inspired, arranged, even displayed as couplets...larry klein and joni...the show seemed like big testimony to her giving so much of herself to him...and the loss...her vangogh-like self portrait was described by her as her feelings after press criticism of her as a painter...my guess is that, on a deeper level, that painting speaks of her disconnection with Klein... what do you think, friends,...there doesn't have to be one answer...'she thinks she loves them all'... shane, see my growing joni page at, www.angelfire.com/art/cactussong ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 11:30:57 EDT From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: Last Blue - BOTT Post (md) Good grief the part about the vigil for Lennon after you purchased the album was way cool and loaded with images. This was why i posed the suggestion and thanks for taking me up on it. I know that for every album I have thats my favorite there are usually things like those images that go along with it. A far cry from simply saying Sandinista is your fave album. Thanks much for the extra stuff. marcel deste ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 13:31:11 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Mae Robertson's "Circle Game" I wanted to share another comment from a recording artist who is voluntarily sending me her CD as a contribution to our covers project. I had Mae Robertson's version of "Circle Game" on our 'looking for' list, and she saw it and contacted me! (Thanks again to Les for such a great vehicle of information & communication) Anyway, she's sending me the CD, and she also gave me these comments that I wanted to share with you, my best Joni friends...I can definitely relate as my own 14-year old is pushing me to give him driving lessons! Here's Mae's note: "Bob: I am a big Joni fan myself, so it must be interesting to hear all the covers of her tunes. I will pop the CD in the mail to you today. This CD I am sending is a collection of what I call lullabies for parents and children. It is a group of songs that embody all the hopes and dreams we have for our children. At the time we were choosing songs to record, my son was turning 16 and my daughter was turning 10. As I'm sure you know, those are two of the ages in Circle Game (16 springs and 16 summers gone now and skated over 10 clear frozen streams) so that is why the song was on my mind. As we sat on the front porch one day rehearsing, my son came out the front door jangling my car keys in his hand and waved to us as he hopped in my car and drove away. Of course, I happened to be singing that exact verse (cart wheels turn to car wheels through the town) and I just burst into tears and the rehearsal had to stop until the mommy had recovered! Ah, the power of music to help us to remember an exact moment in time and how we felt. Hope you enjoy it! Best, Mae ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 14:12:45 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Joni & Leonard Cohen <> Shane, thanks for the good words; unfortunately, this topic is not one that holds much interest for me. When I think of Joni's songs, whether from Blue, Hejira, whatever, they WORK for ME because they speak to me about MY life, not about hers. Like the aforementioned Circle Game, to me it's about my son Nathan, not about Neil Young. The line in Hejira: "there's a man and a woman sitting on a rock, they're either gonna thaw out or freeze" is about me and a girl named Laura. And so on... I don't have any qualms with those who want to debate whether this song is about JT, or that one is about Graham, or that one is about Leonard, but those discussions hold little value for me. The recent discussion about Coyote was great, but it won't change any of the mental images I previously had regarding the song. That's just part of the magic of Joni's writing. But for those who like to talk about those sorts of things, (and I would always encourage ALL types of Joni discussion in this forum) here's some information/misinformation about the Joni/LC connection by way of the "shaky at best" Hinton biography: *********************************** p. 79: Like Neil Young, Leonard Cohen is a companion--and compatriot--and not a threat. The two did not really meet until both had left Canada. Both are famed for their restlessness, geographically and in matters of the heart. Cohen appears in three of Joni's songs: in 'That Song About the Midway' [on _Clouds,_ Oct. 1969]--about their brief affair--he is a devil wearing wings. In 'The Gallery' [on _Clouds_] he is a saint, though a tainted one. 'Rainy Night House" on _Ladies of the canyon,_ May 1970] is said to be a tender farewell from her to him, though he was the one who instigated the parting. He left his melancholy spell on her music: "I think I'm rather Cohen influenced. I wrote 'Marcie' and afterwards thought that it wouldn't have happened if it hadn't been for 'Suzanne'." Cohen's influence has been verbal rather than musical, showing her how poetry can be integrated into the popular song. "My lyrics are influenced by Leonard. After we met at Newport last year (1967) we saw a lot of each other. Some of Leonard's religious imagery, which comes from being a Jew in a predominantly Catholic part of Canada, seems to have rubbed off on me too." Elsewhere, she described Cohen and Dylan as points of departure. "Leonard didn't really explore music. He's a word man first. Leonard's economical, he never wastes a word. I can go through Leonard's work and it's like silk. Dylan is coarse and beautiful in a rougher way." p. 100 (about songs on _Clouds_): Side two opens with an extremely sinister item, 'The Gallery', supposedly about Leonard Cohen, and portraying a man as manipulative as the narrator of, say Robert Browning's poem 'My Last Duchess'. This lover collects women; like the traditional song 'Reynardine', there is the suggestion he might kill them. Like Rose, he appears brainwashed. ... p. 108 (about songs on _Ladies ..._): 'Rainy Night House' is a strange song, quietly underpinned by cello. Joni becomes a whole choir at one point. It's a gentle farewell to Leonard Cohen--a boy who gave up his inheritance to become 'a holy man on the FM radio'--who is gently parodied in the religious imagery she calls up. The way 'called' is used twice, in two different senses, is pure Joni. 'The Priest' [Incidentally, "The priest" is JM's song, not LC's "Priests".] is also Cohen territory, an agnostic age's nostalgic for faith, but given a sexual charge. ... p. 131 (about songs on _Blue,_ July 1971): 'A Case About You' returns to that lonely northern star, shining through the night. It could be both Nash and (more secretly) her lost daughter being bid goodbye to; the lyrics imply that love is never lost, but can be recreated in the memory, as if new born. Taylor [singer James Taylor, another lover] plays second guitar here, which, with the re-evocation of the devil in the second verse, suggests that he too could be the subject of the song. My own uninformed guess is that 'A Case About You' is about Leonard Cohen--though the couple had parted some years before. If so, this would explain its religious imagery, the map of Canada, the lines about northern stars, and particularly the phrase "love is touching souls," which sounds like neither Nash [singer Graham Nash, another lover] nor Taylor, but straight out of the mouth of 'Laughing Len' It is a deeply heretic song, in which the changing of Jesus's blood into holy wine transmutes into sexual love. *********************************************** Bob NP: Marshall Tucker Band, "Too Stubborn" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 16:13:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Ella sings Coyote NJC - --- hell wrote: > wallyk wrote: bolton singing ''nessun dorma''. > > Those last four words make me feel ill. Please tell > me it's not true, or > that it's not the Bolton I'm thinking of? It is, and it is. Go get the Gravol. Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 13:18:35 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Joni & Leonard Cohen (long) Bob wrote: > Shane, thanks for the good words; unfortunately, this topic is not one that holds much interest for me. When I think of Joni's >songs, whether from Blue, Hejira, whatever, they WORK for ME because they speak to me about MY life, not about hers. >Like the aforementioned Circle Game, to me it's about my son Nathan, not about Neil Young. The line in Hejira: What drew me immediately into Joni's music from the beginning (1968) was the feeling that she expressed so many of my own emotions and perceptions (even though I was only 14 at the time). I was into writing "curlicue" (Joni's term) poetry and even connected with the STAS artwork, which was very similar to the pen and ink art I had been creating for few years at that time. That first experience with STAS blew my mind. Then with each album that followed, it always seemed there was so much that again paralelled what I was experiencing at the time, sometimes almost eerily. The entirety of the Blue and For The Roses albums could have been my own autobiography at the time and that is why they remain in my top 5. So Joni's music is very personal to me and my life as, of course, it is to all who love it. However, I don't see why that has to exclude thinking or discussing what or who inspired Joni herself. A number of people have expressed how they cringe when we look to Joni's personal inspriations and I guess I will never understand that. If we were discussing extremely personal details, I would also cringe, but Joni has put these songs out there in the world and I would bet she knew what she was doing and wanted on some level to share her experiences with the world about the people she loved, whether it be Nash, JT, Cohen, Kilauren, Sharon, Betsy, Coyote or Carey. Those songs are tributes to people who have affected her life and they are also a sort of ongoing journal or diary. If she intended otherwise, she would never have named names, locations or situations or given obvious hints about the identities. Rather, she would have written more generically pop love songs. I cannot understand why knowing Joni's details would adversely affect someone else's experience of the song. It means not a blip to my personal experience and appreciation. She wrote them for herself first and then shared them with us. That's why they are so good. If Shane or anyone else wants to learn more about the characters in her songs, they can find Joni's own direct explanations in many of the articles on the JMDL database or in the recorded interviews and live concerts she has done over the years. They do not have to look to the dubious Hinton bio. Joni has been pretty open and revealing all on her own. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 16:19:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Nice opus if you can get it NJC - --- Gordon Mackie wrote: > Hmmmm... some muddled thoughts from me now... > > Gershwin was dogged all his life by musicologists > and other 'so > called' experts who couldn't decide how to classify > his music (that > sounds familiar) . Funny you should mention that. When I'm feeling really anal retentive and decide I want to sort my music into categories, one of the problems I run into is, where do I put Gershwin? Jazz? Classical? Pop? I resolved that part of it by just putting everything in together, in alphabetical order (so for example, you'd have Metheney, Mitchell and Mozart just lumped together in the Ms. The next dilemma is (esp. for classical stuff), do I file it under the name of the composer? The performer? The conductor? And what do you do if it's got more than one composer, or more than one soloist? AAAggghh! Trying to make order out of chaos seems to produce more chaos. Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 21:24:52 +0100 From: philipf@tinet.ie Subject: Re: the album form Bob wrote: > Joni has always worked in terms of stylistic projects, not producing albums that were collections of unrelated songs. > Are you saying that to produce an album of unrelated songs is a less good thing to do ? That just because a collection of songs has some common theme makes it a better album. ? That concept albums are somehow more worthy than other albums. ? > > She even ubtitled her first record to reinforce the thematic nature of it. Why wasn't her first record a collection of her best-known > songs? That would have been the norm of the times, but Joni has always been outside the norm. > > Isn't CMIARS, to pick just one, a collection of various styles including rock, synth pop, country, and traditional folk. The themes of the songs are quite varied as well. Here's the rundown per track 1. relationship, 2 career/ business 3. native americans/ ecology 4. childhood memory/ anti war 5. rock n' roll dancing 6 .ecology 7. anti war 8. relationship 9. big deal american dream 10. love lost Not many dots to join up there but to my mind it's one of her finest records. > > Clouds and LOTC were more "song collections" than album projects, but I would say that from Blue forward, she worked in terms of "projects" and not singles. Of course, the record company released singles, because they wanted to catch every market they could, but to hear Joni tell it she was never about 'technical and financial' considerations, she was just corralled into those restraints by the business of the times. > You're misquoting me there. I didn't say that Joni's motivation was "technical and financial". I said that the 40 minute album was adopted as a standard by the record industry for those reasons. > I would also submit that Joni is not concerned with song length. If she can tell her tale in 3 to 5 minutes, fine, but if she requires a larger canvas, she doesn't hesitate to use it. > I agree completely with that. Philip ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 13:37:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: Nice opus if you can get it NJC - --- Catherine McKay wrote: > Funny you should mention that. When I'm feeling > really anal retentive and decide I want to sort my > music into categories, one of the problems I run > into > is, where do I put Gershwin? I like Cusak's concept from "High Fidelity." You should arrange your music collection autobiographically. That way for example, when you want to find Fleetwood Mac's "Tango In The Night", you'll have to remember that you bought it for a friend in 1985, but never gave it to them ... for personal reasons! ;-) Don Rowe ===== Visit me anytime at http://www.mp3.com/donrowe Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 17:10:58 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: the album form << Are you saying that to produce an album of unrelated songs is a less good thing to do ? That just because a collection of songs has some common theme makes it a better album. ? That concept albums are somehow more worthy than other albums. ? >> Not at all, Philip, and I think you make some very good points about the strength of the single. I just think that Joni tends to work more in terms of album projects than singles, that was all I meant to say. I apologize for not stating my case clearly...it's sort of a difficult thing to explain, I s'pose... Bob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 23:43:35 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: the album form > > She even ubtitled her first record to reinforce the thematic nature of it. So who called it Song To A Seagull if not Joni? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 18:39:08 -0500 From: "kerry" Subject: Midwestern Joni fest??? Hey Midwesterners! Steve P. and I were just talking about possibly organizing a mini Midwest Joni fest here in Milwaukee and wondering if anyone would be interested. We thought Milwaukee would work because we're about halfway between Madison and Chicago. (Of course people from other cities are welcome, too! :>) We were thinking about the end of May or sometime in June, since summer is a busy social time! We'd like to get an idea of how many people would be interested. Send me an e-mail and let me know..... Happy weekend! Kerry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 18:43:49 -0500 From: "kerry" Subject: Virus question NJC I've received two messages after I've sent e-mails, that said a virus was detected in an attachment FROM my address and was cleaned and quarantined. These were just regular e-mails, not something I forwarded. Does anyone know what's causing this? Kerry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 22:12:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Joni & Leonard Cohen - --- SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > < therefore would still play a role in her creative > consciousness?>> > > Shane, thanks for the good words; unfortunately, > this topic is not one that holds much interest for > me. When I think of Joni's songs, whether from Blue, > Hejira, whatever, they WORK for ME because they > speak to me about MY life, not about hers. Like the > aforementioned Circle Game, to me it's about my son > Nathan, not about Neil Young. Nice one, Bob. Like you,who Joni wrote these songs about doesn't interest me much. Well, maybe just a little - it does add context in some cases. But I find the whole business of trying to find out who the lover du jour was voyeuristic somehow. The thing about Joni's songs is that, even if they are about particular people (and I believe that many of them may start out that way), or composites of people (which is what I think), they are universal - they speak to many of us who connect Joni's words with events in our own lives. Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 22:50:48 -0400 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: RE: Joni & Leonard Cohen (long) Kakki said: > What drew me immediately into Joni's music from the beginning > (1968) was the feeling that she expressed so many of my own emotions and > perceptions > However, I don't see why that has to exclude thinking or > discussing what or > who inspired Joni herself. Who Joni's songs are "about" has never had much of an impact on how I feel about a particular song. Like Kakki, I saw myself in many of those songs, so imagining various rock star boyfriends would only get in the way. THAT SAID, I also enjoy discussing what or who inspired Joni herself - just from the sheer enjoyment of innocent gossip, I suppose. And when a really good biography of Joni is finally published, I will gobble it up. - ----------------------------------- Deb Messling =^..^= - ----------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 21:55:07 -0400 From: "Chris Reynolds" Subject: remove Hi there, I can't find the link to remove, hope this is OK, Thanks, Chris ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 23:05:48 EDT From: Relayer211@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni & Leonard Cohen (long) In a message dated 4/27/01 11:00:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, messling@enter.net writes: << And when a really good biography of Joni is finally published, I will gobble it up. >> What I can't understand is why a good biography of Joni has NOT been published. She's been a major musical artist for over 30 years and still no decent biography written about her? It doesn't make sense to me. much less talents have many bios.written about them. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 22:14:41 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Joni & Leonard Cohen Catherine wrote: > Nice one, Bob. Like you,who Joni wrote these songs > about doesn't interest me much. Well, maybe just a > little - it does add context in some cases. But I > find the whole business of trying to find out who the > lover du jour was voyeuristic somehow. This is what I don't understand. If Joni herself reveals these people and her experiences with them either overtly in interviews and in stage patter, or implicitly in her songs, why is it voyeuristic to discuss what she has already (often very candidly)revealed? I can see that it can be offensive if we go beyond what she has revealed and start making judgments on her or wanting to know more than what she has revealed but I think we basically stick to what she has told us. Maybe I'm just simple or dense, but it really baffles me that some people think this should be taboo or is somehow unseemly. > The thing about Joni's songs is that, even if they are about > particular people (and I believe that many of them may > start out that way), or composites of people (which is > what I think), they are universal - they speak to many > of us who connect Joni's words with events in our own lives. I think many songwriters create composites but jeez, in Joni's case, she seems to be real specific. Look at the recent discovery of Coyote thread. After a few people out forth all the compelling circumstantial evidence there was no doubt who he was. How many composites have a link to the Bay of Fundy, for example? Here is the paradox to me - if Joni had not written many of the personal details or characteristics of the real people she based her songs on, we probably would never have connected her words so closely with events in our own lives. They are not generic and I don't think many of them are composites. What interests me in learning more about the characters is that it is like a real life story to me. I loved Nash's and Cohen's music before I even knew about Joni. To learn that some of her gorgeous songs are about these other artists I love is a bonus to me. All these beautiful souls inspiring each other is uplifting to me. However, I have thought about this more and can see another side to it. With the exception of suspecting some of Blue and FTR were about JT, I lived in virtual ignorance of who these characters were for almost 30 years until I joined the list. So in a way, I had a lot of time to be blissfully ignorant and not have the knowledge of who they were about impinging on my experience of the songs. It may be that discussing "who is that one about" sort of cheats the people here who are just now or recently experiencing her music from feeling the music fully from their own perspective and emotions. That may not be fair to them. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 22:45:39 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Joni & Leonard Cohen (long) Deb wrote: > Who Joni's songs are "about" has never had much of an impact on how I feel > about a particular song. Like Kakki, I saw myself in many of those songs, so > imagining various rock star boyfriends would only get in the way. For those of us who had rock star boyfriends (but minor league in my case), there was no imagination involved, only empathetic recognition in some instances ;-) >THAT SAID, I also enjoy discussing what or who inspired Joni herself - just from > the sheer enjoyment of innocent gossip, I suppose. And when a really good > biography of Joni is finally published, I will gobble it up. I was just discussing this with another jmdler the other night. I really wonder how she would put it all together. She is so open and brutally honest at times, I wonder if she will feel the need to censor herself some. I have a feel it may be a long time coming. Kakki NPIMH: Blonde in the Bleachers ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2001 #197 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?