From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2001 #175 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Friday, April 13 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 175 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. Information on the 4th "Annual" New England JoniFest: http://www.jmdl.com/jfne2001.cfm The Joni Chat Room: http://www.jmdl.com/chat.cfm ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: pt2 Art vs. Pop Culture NJC [dsk ] Re: The "Bjork Incident". (long and provocative) (SJC) [jan gyn ] Re: The "Bjork Incident". (long and provocative) (SJC) [Ricw1217@aol.com] deeping the voice njc ["Kate Bennett" ] art ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: The "Bjork Incident". (long and provocative) (SJC) [Catherine McKay ] Re: Steve's concert database NJC [philipf@tinet.ie] Re: pt2 Art vs. Pop Culture NJC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: art [catman ] Re: The "Bjork Incident". (long and provocative) (SJC) [catman ] ivory tickler ["frank caldwell" ] Re: pt2 Art vs. Pop Culture NJC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: pt2 Art vs. Pop Culture NJC [catman ] Re: ivory tickler [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Passing the Torch (long) [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Re: The "Bjork Incident". (long and provocative) (SJC) ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: ivory tickler ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: The "Bjork Incident". (long and provocative) (SJC) ["Mark or Travis"] RE: Art (Some Joni content) ["Nikki Johnson" ] Re: art(njc) ["Victor Johnson" ] Re: The "Bjork Incident". (long and provocative) (NJC) ["Victor Johnson"] NJC Dido Live In London [Jason Maloney ] Re: art(njc) [Dflahm@aol.com] art:useful? [Randy Remote ] Re: art:useful? ["Kakki" ] Re: art:useful? ["Mark or Travis" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 18:12:46 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: pt2 Art vs. Pop Culture NJC catman wrote: > I undrstand where you are coming from. I thought from your last post that we had a different view of what art is. > I take it from what you have explained, that, for example, my sweaters are just sweaters because they have a function and not created just to be hung up somewhere? I know one designer calls her stuff 'wearable art'! I guess that is is how I look at it too. Like I said, your definition is probably closer to current thinking than mine is, and I like the idea of wearable art. I doubt that I'd ever say or even think that your sweaters are "just" anything. To say something's not art doesn't mean it has no value. I don't think that art is the only or even the ultimate expression of what people are capable of; it's just one type of expression. I'd probably say something more like "beautiful! look at those colors! stunning! how did you do that? can I have it? price please?" and the idea of whether it's art or not wouldn't even cross my mind. > I also see the validity of your definiton of art, even if it does leave my art out of it. I guess we don't agree, and that is okay. I think so too. Better that than accepting something that doesn't fit. I'm very glad to now have a clearer idea of what your definition means to you, and thank you for that. atb, Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 15:41:21 -0700 From: jan gyn Subject: Re: The "Bjork Incident". (long and provocative) (SJC) Oh, brother! Get off the cross; we can use the wood. - -jan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 15:52:15 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: The list Dear Friends, Perhaps I am hopelessly naive and sentimental, but I consider many people that I have met on this list close friends, even family. Many of the posts I have read over the last month have been attacks on other listers. Many have brought tears to my eyes. Seeing dear friends or family members fight is no fun. I have long believed (long time listers will nod knowingly) that bringing up religion, sexuality or politics on this list always, always leads to flame wars. Now it seems any subject can result in personal attacks against the poster. I wonder if Les should give us all a time-out, perhaps shut the list down for a month. Maybe that would make us reflect on what this list does, and does not, mean to us. Whatever happens, please, please, please don't attack other listers. You can disagree with ideas without attacking the person who posted them. The are some listers whose posts I never read - experience has taught me that, for my mental health, some people are better ignored - - and perhaps that is an approach others might consider, rather than flame those who infuriate you.. Please excuse me for not sending this NJC, but some of my dear friends are Joni-onlies. All the best, - -- ######################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://www.tinkersown.com "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://www.cpmusic.com/scdh "The Living Tradition Concert Series" http://www.thelivingtradition.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 19:38:23 EDT From: Ricw1217@aol.com Subject: Re: The "Bjork Incident". (long and provocative) (SJC) > Of course everyone wants the rancor and negative vibes to go away from the > list. I do as well." no you don't! laughable that you would contend you do. you FEED off the rancor and negative vibes and do everything you possibly can to provoke them. > But then again what this post is about is censorship, intolerance and what > happens to anyone who only a small group of people on the list have decided > they dont like. what this post is about is you, once again, blowing your kazoo. notice me! notice me! > > I was told by one person that this > is a "mental problem" i have in search of "attention". and that would have been me. but i never told you you had a mental problem. do you? know thyself, marcel. > Obviously they dont know me personally and they dislike what I write > very much. Think about that. They dislike my thoughts. They are BAD > thoughts. > Bad humor. Bad sarcasm. Bad politics. And because a few of them feel this > way > YOUR thoughts are unacceptable and not fit to post lest they get miffed. > what rubbish! no one objects to your thoughts marcel. (WHAT thoughts??) it's the manner in which those alleged thoughts are expressed. > They like to use ideas and dress them up in incendiary insulting > invective terminology and associate certain people with evil. And then they > dont expect to have their target respond. He or she is just supposed to > take > it as if that is their manifest destiny and right. are you talking about what YOU do here? because that is pretty close marcel. you have your toes curled right around the cusp of insight! > > I believe that If you start something directed at some person then you must > defend what you said to that person first and foremost and do so directly. > unless it is someone defending themselves against YOU??? (when oh when do we get to the stomping out of the room and the slamming of the door???) > I dare say it is impossible to say any > friggin' thing without someone short on their medication taking offense. short on their medication? so, you bear no responsibility for the response. its just someone short on their medication? frees you of any of the blame huh? nifty how that works. i once said something very similar to a list member, not realizing he had many reasons to take it personally. so i APOLOGIZED to him. could you advise me how far to skip ahead in order to get to where YOU apologize? i'm on a tight schedule here... Just remember that if you dish it > out you need to be able to take it with the same spirit you gave. > words to live by. i think that lesson is being visited upon you right now! are you learning it? If you want to attack the ides itself thats fine just focus > on the idea as opposed to the person. That is called tolerance. Tolerance is > not to be of ideas, it is to be of people. If you dont feel compelled to > tolerate another person then why should the other person tolerate you. > HELLO???? is there anyone in there? when do you EVER show the LEAST bit of respect or tolerance toward ANYONE? when? are you serious or is this some sort of mind fuck? ugh. enough already. you bore me. best of luck to you. there's 45 minutes of my life i will never get back... ric ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 16:36:27 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: deeping the voice njc >>>She told me that it was standard practice for many of them to smoke to in order to deepen the voice.<<< Dang! Maybe I shoud take up smoking again.... ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 16:36:29 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: art My favorite artist is mother nature. Look, feel, smell all the amazing shapes, colors, textures & smells of flowers. Truly miraculous in my opinion. My favorite flower right now is Plumeria. Just intoxicating.... Kate, still a flower child ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 20:02:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: The "Bjork Incident". (long and provocative) (SJC) - --- jan gyn wrote: > Oh, brother! > Get off the cross; we can use the wood. > -jan Now, that's one of the funniest things I've heard in a long time! Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 01:20:28 +0100 From: philipf@tinet.ie Subject: Re: Steve's concert database NJC A mighty list, Steve. Lots of people I'd love to have seen but none more so than 60's diva Julie Driscoll and The Bonzo Dogs a close second. This weekend I 'm looking forward to seeing a bunch of guitarniks from New york called Television. best wishes, Philip ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 20:21:40 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: pt2 Art vs. Pop Culture NJC << I take it from what you have explained, that, for example, my sweaters are just sweaters because they have a function and not created just to be hung up somewhere? I know one designer calls her stuff 'wearable art'! I guess that is is how I look at it too. >> Colin, I would say that your creation is an artistic one. Yesterday I spoke of "product" in the guise of art...that is, the velvet Elvises that aren't real art, but rather a product without function for the purposes of commerce only. Your sweaters are just the opposite, which is a good thing. I see them as art, in the guise of a usable product, much like a quilt. There's certainly an artistic value in a quilt, but it can be creative art as can your sweater, a fork a chair, a rug. All those things can be items of commerce as well as art. Now, you would say that EVERY fork and chair is art, and we would part company on that thought, which is OK. But I would definitely see the garment as the "canvas" on which you paint. Either way, I commend you for increasing the amount of beauty that's in the world! I think that's what Joni inspires us to do, no? ;~) Bob NP: Ani, "harvest" (not a Neil cover) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 01:26:21 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: art I agree but get that feeling more so when i look at my pets. And people too. Kate Bennett wrote: > My favorite artist is mother nature. Look, feel, smell all the amazing > shapes, colors, textures & smells of flowers. Truly miraculous in my > opinion. My favorite flower right now is Plumeria. Just intoxicating.... > > Kate, still a flower child > > ******************************************** > Kate Bennett > www.katebennett.com > sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com > Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: > http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html > ******************************************** - -- bw colin colin@tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk http://www.geocities.com/tantra_apso/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 01:28:31 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: The "Bjork Incident". (long and provocative) (SJC) > Now, that's one of the funniest things I've heard in a > long time! > Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca Oh Catherine you shame me! I sent a similar message privately! - -- bw colin colin@tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk http://www.geocities.com/tantra_apso/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 01:31:38 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: pt2 Art vs. Pop Culture NJC > Either way, I commend you for increasing the amount of beauty that's in the > world! thank you > I think that's what Joni inspires us to do, no? ;~) I have never thought of her in that light. I have always seen her as showing us the ugliness in the world. Maybe I don't listen or only the miserable songs get to me!(certainly in her later works) > > > Bob > > NP: Ani, "harvest" (not a Neil cover) - -- bw colin colin@tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk http://www.geocities.com/tantra_apso/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 10:38:12 +1000 From: "frank caldwell" Subject: ivory tickler g'day from down under,I have just downloaded Joni-Steve wonder version of summertime from napster,can someone inform me who play's the piano on this version? IAKUOL(I AM KING UNDISPUTEDLY OF LURKDOM) GOOD HEALTH:FHEJIRA@BIGPOND.NET.AU ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 20:47:09 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: pt2 Art vs. Pop Culture NJC << I have never thought of her in that light. I have always seen her as showing us the ugliness in the world. Maybe I don't listen or only the miserable songs get to me!(certainly in her later works) >> True, but could it be said that by showing us ugliness, even in ourselves, she encourages us to make some beauty to replace it? I know for a fact that she (through her work) has made me a better person, more in tune to the hardships that others are going through and responding accordingly. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 01:52:48 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: pt2 Art vs. Pop Culture NJC SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > << I have never thought of her in that light. I have always seen her as > showing us > the ugliness in the world. Maybe I don't listen or only the miserable songs > get > to me!(certainly in her later works) >> > > True, but could it be said that by showing us ugliness, even in ourselves, > she encourages us to make some beauty to replace it? It could thus be said, yes. > > > I know for a fact that she (through her work) has made me a better person, > more in tune to the hardships that others are going through and responding > accordingly. I cannot say. I have always been pretty in tune with that, for reasons you already know. What she did for me was make me feel less alone, less mad, as in crazy not angry. > > > Bob - -- bw colin colin@tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk http://www.geocities.com/tantra_apso/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 20:54:14 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: ivory tickler << g'day from down under,I have just downloaded Joni-Steve wonder version of summertime from napster,can someone inform me who play's the piano on this version?>> That would be Herbie Hancock, Frank. The track is from Herbie's record "Gershwin's World", and also contains Joni singing "The Man I Love", superb as well! << IAKUOL(I AM KING UNDISPUTEDLY OF LURKDOM) >> This cracked me up, Frank - Thanks for the smile! Bob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 20:53:38 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Passing the Torch (long) I thought this was an interesting read and our Joan is briefly mentioned. Passing the flame With a new generation of female singers getting tired of touring with rock 'n' roll bands, the sultry sophistication of the torch song is back in vogueLI ROBBINS Special to The Globe and Mail Tuesday, April 10, 2001TORONTO -- On a rainy Wednesday night at the Montreal Bistro and Jazz Club in downtown Toronto recently, you would have had to bribe some devotee just to get a seat at the bar, so popular was the reigning chanteuse, Molly Johnson. "Instrumentalists don't pull them in like this," the doorman confided.A sea of rapt faces, from barely legal girls lip-synching, to fortyish men bearing a fair resemblance to lesser characters in the TV series The Sopranos, were trained on Johnson. Although she did sing originals, it was the jazz standards, treated with Billie Holiday-esque tristesse, that held them mesmerized.The world-weary languor of the torch singer is hot these days. Johnson and Laura Hubert hold court at Toronto's Palais Royale on May 11. A whole series simply called Torch ran last winter at Toronto's Top O' the Senator jazz club.And there's a new crowd slithering into those slinky gowns. We've got Joni Mitchell seeing "gloom and misery everywhere" since, as she sings on her jazz CD, Both Sides Now, "my man and I ain't together." Former metal queen Lee Aaron asks the object of her desire to "teach me tonight, starting with the ABC of it," on her jazz and blues recording, Slick Chick. Both CDs, released last year, are part of a ripple of recordings featuring jazz songs first popularized by the middle of the last century, if not earlier, and now recorded by performers better known as pop artists -- predominantly female pop artists.Not everyone is a chanteuse come lately, of course. At the top of the heap of jazz-standard purveyors are performers such as Canada's hugely successful Diana Krall, and the new contender for the retro-jazz-queen throne, 23-year-old Ella Fitzgerald sound-alike Jane Monheit. Monheit is a girl from the burbs of Long Island who sings jazz standards so convincingly both the world's most legendary jazz clubs -- New York's Village Vanguard and The Blue Note -- have invited and applauded her charms.David Hajdu, (author of Lush Life: A Biography of Billy Strayhorn), writing in the New York Times Magazine in December, was less impressed; he quipped scornfully that Monheit's is "a jazz world George W. Bush would understand," saying she "seems to embody mainstream jazz's wholesale submission to nostalgia." He cited innovative singers such as Dominique Eade, Judi Silvano and Nora York as big talents shunted to the sidelines by the jazz recording industry precisely because those vocalists want to focus on original material. Haven't heard of them? Likely you won't, but you will see Monheit this summer when she's expected to play some of Canada's jazz festivals and you'll hear her this fall when her second recording of standards is released with distribution in Canada (the first, Never Never Land, was, until recently, available here only as an import).At the Montreal Bistro, the audience is definitely on retro's side. "I love torch singing," one patron gushed. "Molly's one of the best torch singers in the world." Johnson prefers to call herself, whimsically, a saloon singer. No wonder. That "torch" moniker is a little hot to handle, given song-lyric sentiments running decidedly toward the politically incorrect. Take the torch classic, My Man, for example, sung in some versions like this: "Two or three girls has he, that he likes as well as me. But I love him. I don't know why I should, he isn't good, he isn't true, he beats me too. What can I do?" Not a thing, apparently. After all, the essence of torch singing is obsessive love in one guise or another.The expression "torch," shorthand for "carrying a torch," derives from the 19th century, when dedicated political followers showed support for a candidate by carrying lit torches in campaign parades. That spawned the phrase "carrying a torch," which later came to signify clinging to unrequited or lost love. By the jazz era, those smouldering women in off-the-shoulder dresses had taken up residence in the nightclubs of the world. (Claudette Colbert's movie Torch Singer was made in 1933.)But for the Canadian singers now travelling this well-lit promenade, jazz singing is scarcely just about love-gone-wrong songs. Johnson says for her the lure of the jazz standard, whether in the "let-me-rip-my-heart-out" style of a torch song or not, is in the complex melodies of jazz. "All through my years singing in rock bands, the melodies weren't strong enough. And I always sang jazz at the same time as doing rock stuff -- I could sing quietly, work on improvising and songwriting. I used to say I'd retire and only sing jazz -- now I have." She says, jokingly, she decided to record "a sophisticated record, for my sophisticated friends" and her jazz-oriented album came out last fall, to enamoured reviews.With Johnson, as with other singers moving into mid-life, the focus on jazz is part of an accommodation to life changes as much as anything. With two kids she's relieved not to have to "travel with a bunch of guys in a bus any more." Instead, it's about "the old dead guys," as she describes the composers of jazz standards to her audience at the Montreal Bistro, getting a big laugh. She doesn't entertain the notion that there's something potentially moribund about that. "In general, people hunger for melody. You listen to computerized, formulaic stuff, and the human heart and ear will seek melodies -- kids hear this music now, and to them, it's new and fresh."Montreal-based Ranee Lee, who's been singing jazz for 38 years, and recording it for 20, isn't surprised that both jazz singers and pop singers are falling in love with standards and torch songs again. She also doesn't concur with the notion that it's a conservative trend. "When you go to an art gallery and see Picasso, you won't say, 'I can't enjoy this because it's not contemporary.' If a person is open-minded, they will have the capacity to appreciate it all -- the same is true with music." Lee thinks this embrace of the older repertoire is in part because there was a period, pre-Krall, where the material was not frequently recorded by singers. "When these songs are brought back, it's natural people will pay attention to them - -- they're tried and true and tested."Some singers, drawn to the music but wanting to revise those test results, are analyzing them in less expected ways. Toronto-based Phe Cullen, a glam rocker who previously worked in Britain, has recently released an eponymous recording of standards of a different colour, rock classics like Purple Haze and Ruby Tuesday, but done up as jazz. Chicago's Patricia Barber tried the same sort of thing on her first two, critically lauded CDs, including interpretations of Sonny Bono's The Beat Goes On and Peter Green's Black Magic Woman. Tellingly, her last album, released last year, was a collection of standards and, perhaps not surprisingly, it has been her biggest seller to date.Then there's the case of Laura Hubert, former lead singer with the Juno-award-winning roots rockers, Leslie Spit Treeo. Her new release, My Girlish Ways, sees Hubert sporting feather boas, long gloves, high heels, and a vintage dress. But she's also swathed in a sort of babushka in one shot, and wears a toy teddy bear as a brooch. Its a bit of a send-up, and Hubert's attitude toward performing jazz and blues material is anything but reverent."It's not 'Oh shut up, I'm singing,' " she says. "You've got to have the cash register going, people having a good time. It's gotta have some action." There was plenty of action at one of Hubert's recent Saturday afternoon gigs at The Rex jazz bar in downtown Toronto. Jazz fans and passing Saturday afternoon shoppers alike yacked, laughed and ordered pints, listening to Hubert "having a little fun with torch," as she puts it. For Hubert, the move to jazz wasn't a jump on the Krall bandwagon -- back in pre-Leslie Spit days, she sang jazz with friends, planning some day to "get a dress and an attitude and sing those songs."It's a story echoed by Lee Aaron. Granted, her jazz and blues release, Slick Chick, was bit of a shocker for those who didn't know of the singer's childhood days in musical theatre, nor of the regular jazz gigs she's been playing in Vancouver since 1997. (When Slick Chick came out, Billboard magazine said, "If Britney Spears did a guest stint with the Royal Shakespeare Company, it wouldn't be any more surprising than the latest album by Canada's Lee Aaron.")Aaron, from her home base in Vancouver, isn't apologetic. "I can't allow people's perceptions, or fear of their perceptions about me, to direct my musical path or my life. The industry, to some degree, still wants to define me by that 'rock chick/metal queen' persona. But I'm 38 now, and I've lived through fame, fortune, exploitation, divorce, parenthood and financial devastation."That image of me is really quite narrow and oppressive. Some elitists may never get their head around the idea of a former rocker doing jazz. Others think it's a brave move. I just think it's music and there are no rules."Of course for singers, pop-based or not, focusing on jazz has distinct lifestyle advantages. As Lee Aaron puts it, "Jazz fans in general usually don't get loaded and throw up at the show."Jazz is, after all, nice work and it seems you can get it, if you want to "roast that chestnut," as jazz musicians jokingly put it, one more time. rosemjoy@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 18:28:39 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: The "Bjork Incident". (long and provocative) (SJC) > > Now, that's one of the funniest things I've heard in a > > long time! > > Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca > > Oh Catherine you shame me! I sent a similar message privately! > > -- > bw > colin Mine said ROTFLMAO. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 18:33:09 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: ivory tickler > g'day from down under,I have just downloaded Joni-Steve wonder version of > summertime from napster,can someone inform me who play's the piano on this > version? That would be Herbie Hancock. This is from his 'Gershwin's World' cd. Welcome out of lurkdom! Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 18:52:53 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: The "Bjork Incident". (long and provocative) (SJC) I have met more than a > few of you and you who I have met know what I am really like as a person. > > Those who dislike me very much have never met me but their dislike is very > strong. Obviously they dont know me personally and they dislike what I write > very much. Think about that. They dislike my thoughts. This reminds me of a man whom I had the great misfortune of working for at was probably the darkest period of my life. He used to tell me that he was a completely different person away from work. I wanted to tell him that that meant absolutely nothing to me since I never saw or interacted with him anywhere else but at work. And at work he had a certain amount of power over me and the way he used it had nothing to do with whether or not he was a 'nice guy' when he didn't have his manager's suit on. For me his actions toward me as my superior totally negated any claim he made of being a 'nice guy.' My point is that most of the people on this list will never meet one another face to face so what else do we have to base our opinions of one another on but what we write? And for me the way ideas & thoughts are expressed say as much (and maybe more) about a person as the thoughts themselves. If the thoughts are stated without arrogance or condescension, then I feel the person expressing them at least has the right to be heard out. On the other hand if the person expressing those thoughts obviously is convinced that his or her opinions are the absolute truth and anyone who disagrees is an imbecile, then I could care less about whatever it is they are saying. And I certainly wouldn't have any desire to meet them face to face or find out anything more about what they are 'really like.' Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 22:48:19 -0400 From: "Nikki Johnson" Subject: RE: Art (Some Joni content) Pyramus wrote: > Of course this works with the other arts as well. Look at Jonis > music. Some people are quite happy to find joy in the music and > aren't too bothered about the lyrics. A few will not be too > concerned with the music but love the lyrics. When the lyrics are > strong this works well. Still more love both, and the interaction > between the two These lines stood out to me, what an insightful post. I suppose I was drawn to it because I admit when I first discovered Joni, I was more drawn to her words than the music. I always wrote poetry so words were and continue to be important to me. Ladies of the Canyon was my first album and I remember loving the words to "For Free" but not the music so much. There were a few other songs like that too. Now of course there were musical aspects of the CD I did enjoy or else I wouldn't have listened to it. But then I guess some of it came with age (I was only 13 or 14 when I purchased LOTC) and as I listened to Blue and LOTC and Hits (the first 3 Joni albums I bought) I started to really appreciate the music and the synthesis with the words...simply amazing. Thanks for making me think about that! Love Nikki np: Stevie Nicks & Sheryl Crow~ Sorcerer "Dream on but don't imagine they'll all come true...Vienna waits for you" ~ Billy Joel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of > pyramus@lineone.net > Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2001 1:13 PM > To: joni@smoe.org > Subject: Art (Some Joni content) > > > Some fascinating views about art on the list recently. I'm > reminded of the following quotation: > > "The nature of a work of art is not to be a part, nor yet a copy > of the real world (as we commonly understand that phrase), but a > world in itself, independant, complete, autonomous; and to > possess it fully you must enter that world, conform to its laws, > and ignore for the time the beliefs, aims, and particular > conditions which belong to you in > the other world of reality." > > (Oxford lectures: Professor Bradley: 1901). > > > My own view is akin to those of the good professor. As Colin said > everything is (potentially) art, but I would add that you have be > prepared to perceive it as such. I suppose the modern idiom would > be that you have to 'buy into it'. If we look at painting, you > walk into a gallery and either study the paintings and involve > yourself in them, or > you just think that they are wall decorations (Elvis Costello's > 'useless beauty'?). If you involve yourself in them then they > become art. They are art when they are created because the artist > obviously must involve himself in them. They then become art > again when viewed by someone who is willing to view them with his > mind and not just his eyes. You don't have to be an artist to do this. > > Of course this works with the other arts as well. Look at Jonis > music. Some people are quite happy to find joy in the music and > aren't too bothered about the lyrics. A few will not be too > concerned with the music but love the lyrics. When the lyrics are > strong this works well. Still more love both, and the interaction > between the two. It depends how you approach this and how deeply > you are willing to buy into it. All art is created from nothing and needs > an audience to survive. We are all creating art all of the time > and are surrounded by it, but sometimes fail to realise it. > > > pyramus ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 23:09:46 -0400 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Re: art(njc) > My favorite artist is mother nature. Look, feel, smell all the amazing > shapes, colors, textures & smells of flowers. Truly miraculous in my > opinion. My favorite flower right now is Plumeria. Just intoxicating.... > I saw two beautiful cardinals this morning in two different locations. And the azelea bush in front of Holley's house is in full bloom, it really is almost overpowering when you walk by it in the sunny afternoon... Victor Victor Johnson http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson "Just beyond the morning falls the river of your dreams, Escaping from the day these wild creatures run away." Victor Johnson ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 23:15:55 -0400 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Re: The "Bjork Incident". (long and provocative) (NJC) > On the other hand if the person expressing > those thoughts obviously is convinced that his or her opinions are the > absolute truth and anyone who disagrees is an imbecile, then I could > care less about whatever it is they are saying. And I certainly > wouldn't have any desire to meet them face to face or find out > anything more about what they are 'really like.' > > Mark in Seattle I've often wondered what Neal Boortz is like in person, if he's as obnoxious and pigheaded as he is on his radio show. Or if its all done for the sake of entertainment. The statement above describes him pretty acurately though. Victor Victor Johnson http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson "Just beyond the morning falls the river of your dreams, Escaping from the day these wild creatures run away." Victor Johnson ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 04:30:51 +0100 From: Jason Maloney Subject: NJC Dido Live In London Hi all, I've seen Dido's name mentioned a few times here on the list, so I thought some of you might be interested to read my account of Wednesday's opening show at the London Shepherd's Bush Empire. I needed at least 24 hours to achive some objectivity, since I am more than a little smitten by her, I have to admit (and as anyone who knows me will readily attest!). - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quiet At The Back, PLEASE! by Jason Maloney A chilly Spring night in West London was the setting for Dido's first show to date at a major-sized venue in the capital. Having topped the UK album charts for six weeks already this year with No Angel, not to mention scoring a #4 single courtesy of the dreamy Here With Me, she appears to have risen to prominence with relative ease. Not so, in fact. Two years spent hawking her music across America laid the foundations for Dido's new-found popularity in this country. That experience no doubt helped to evolve and hone her live act. So, while it's fair to say she is one of the hottest *new* names to have emerged in the last 6 months, discard any thoughts of an ill-prepared singer-songwriter being exposed by a high profile nationwide tour so soon after her intial breakthrough. This woman and her highly-accomplished band, know their stuff. Dido takes her time to arrive on stage. A longer-than-usual intermission - - which brings the time between doors opening and the start of her set to well over 2 whole hours - is then followed by an instrumental workout titled Worthless, which is all very atmospheric but in all honesty everyone is waiting for the lady herself to grace the stage. Dressed in the now-familiar cropped, low-cut black T-shirt and hip-hugging purple jeans, Dido looked as though she'd arrived straight from one of her many TV appearances. Despite her opening confession of being incredibly nervous and over-excited at playing a venue where she'd seen so many of her favourite bands, there were no visible signs of nerves. Dido doesn't move around an awful lot, but her subtle, slinky motions are more natural than any choreographer could teach. It all adds to her unaffected appeal. With Dido, the focus is - quite rightly for her - on the music and not the image..although she's hardly lacking in the visual department of course. As an alternative to the muscular gyrating of her fellow female chart acts, she comes as a much needed dose of normality, a womanly antidote to the belief within entertainment circles that starving yourself is the only way to attain an attractive feminine figure. There is a marked difference to Dido's live sound compared to the sometimes clinical studio recordings. Besides the presence of a DJ to intersperse some timely breakbeats and scratching, the grooves are heavier, making the general performance both funkier and, when necessary, rocking. Yes, it's official. Dido rocks. No Angel is a fabulous modern pop album, full of budding classics, yet if there's one criticism it would be the track sequencing. All 11 tracks are featured in an inevitably brief set (the CD's bonus cut Take My Hand is the only absentee), but crucially the order of these renditions is somehow more effective. The teaser prologue of Worthless seques seamlessly into the dub-heavy opening bars of My Lover's Gone, an ideal showcase for the Dido voice. A lament almost traditional in its style, she soars and swoops - pretty much as on record but with added power. All You Want's anthemic qualities were always likely to thrive in a concert situation, and so it proves. Not one of Dido's most arresting compositions, her band give the song the full treatment and, as is usually the case in such environments, it works a treat. I'm No Angel is one of the album's growers...intially slight, its charms unfold with repeated exposure. Vision of loveliness though she may be, the autobiographical lyrics would seem to reveal a less than-perfect nature. Well, nobody can claim to be free of any flaws whatsoever. Surprisingly, the Big Hit Single comes next. "This is a song you'll have heard a lot lately", she wryly comments in her cor-blimey accent by way of an introduction to Here With Me. Hopefully, it's one we'll be hearing for a long time to come, since songs this majestic never cease to enthrall. Once again the live version completely wipes the floor with its studio counterpart, as an enviable head of steam is built up by the final chorus. Simply awesome. With nary a moment to recapture breath, it's on to Isobel. Many people's favourite track from No Angel, the spiky guitar motif comes alive and the enhanced rhythmic accompaniment gives the song a better framework for one of Dido's edgier lyrics. It's the first in a trio of less bombastic numbers, the mood continued by My Life and Honestly OK. The former seems to last hardly any time at all, yet Dido holds the attention so totally with her unassuming-but-spellbinding demeanour the very notion of time or length effectively becomes irrelevant. Honestly OK gives Alex, her percussionist, a chance to take centre-stage with some truly incredible - - and eventually frenzied - handiwork. It may start out as a "chilled" track, but by the climax the evening's blue touch-paper has been well and truly lit. Slide is then introduced as the product of Dido trying to pull herself out of a phase where she "lost the plot a bit" while working on No Angel. A *pull yourself together* song with no room for pity or walowing, a sublime chorus lifts it high into the stratosphere. Strangely, while she generally sings with more intensity and a greater decibel level throughout the night, on Slide she almost seems to pull back from really letting rip. Apparently uninterested in covering other people's work as a means to pad out her still-nascent repertoire, the inclusion of two brand new songs is therefore both welcome and vital. Otherwise, the entire set would last significantly less than 60 minutes. Adding some untested material almost certainly makes it more interesting for Dido herself, too, so everyone's a winner. Especially when See The Sun Again and Don't Leave Home manage to develop the existing sound we know from her with such emphatically successful results. See The Sun Again is mainstream Dido, as opposed to the more complex ambient textures of Honestly Ok and I'm No Angel. Fans of Here With Me will appreciate its confidently commercial hallmarks, almost Corrs-like in terms of sheer melodic fluency. More stage banter - "I wonder how many of you know more than the first verse of this next song?" - signals the appearance of Thankyou, which raises the loudest cheer of the night and seems to finally animate some sections of the crowd. For many, perhaps it was this song alone - and the Eminem connection - which brought them to the show. If so, they were often quite blatant about it. Continual chatter, particularly from the rear of the auditorium, marred the entire evening. Such things are only to be expected during the support act (poor Tom McRae's introspective splendour was drowned out by the jabbering masses), but for it to continue during the main attraction beggared belief. It highlights the main drawback of Dido's current status as a flavour-of-the-moment, and the media's focus upon the sampled Thankyou's role in the success of Mr. Mathers' #1 smash Stan. This has created a different type of audience - at the London dates at least....blase enough to happily turn their backs on the stage and persue the far more urgent priorities of drinking, smoking and holding loud conversations amongst themselves. Hunter maintains the energy level, and at last it begins to feel like a bona fide concert. The inertia which had previously gripped the vast majority of punters loosens its hold a little, and a few arms actually punch the air. A rather enthusaistic reception, really, for one of the more ordinary songs in the Dido ouvre, although in the circumstances such signs of life are more than welcome. Thus the main set is concluded, as Dido and band observe the standard practice of disappearing for a minute or so, only to return for an *encore*. Given the wait before actually commencing the show earlier on, this resumption almost feels indecently swift. It's the second new song first, Don't Leave Home....."a song about addiction". Kicking off with an echoey drum pattern strongly reminsicent of Tom Petty's 1985 minor hit Don't Come Around Here No More, the song is an immediate winner, and likely to be a highlight of that *difficult* second album. Don't Think Of Me, always something of a kissing cousin to Alanis Morissette's You Oughtta Know, rounds off the show with authentic vibrancy, leaving the enduring impression of an artist who can definitely do the business live. On this display, regardless of the too-cool-brigade's selective indifference, few can fail to have found their opinion of Dido seriously bolstered. The album may be pretty, fairly inoffensive and easy to listen to, but in concert both the music and the voice take on a more dynamic character. (c) J. Maloney, 2001 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 23:32:49 EDT From: Dflahm@aol.com Subject: Re: art(njc) I was biking in Central Park earlier this week. Glorious. DAVID LAHM ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 21:11:18 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: art:useful? Art that is useful: A handcrafted musical instrument A delicious meal A handmade sweater An inlaid table A Frank Lloyd Wright building Calligraphy Anything that soothes the spirit, or enriches the mind (ie a song, a book, a painting) RR ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 21:09:15 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: art:useful? A hand-painted martini glass. > Art that is useful: > > A handcrafted musical instrument > A delicious meal > A handmade sweater > An inlaid table > A Frank Lloyd Wright building > Calligraphy > Anything that soothes the spirit, or enriches the mind (ie a song, > a book, a painting) > > RR ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 21:36:41 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: art:useful? > A hand-painted martini glass. > Most definitely hand-painted martini glasses! :-) ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2001 #175 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?