From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2001 #172 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Wednesday, April 11 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 172 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. Information on the 4th "Annual" New England JoniFest: http://www.jmdl.com/jfne2001.cfm The Joni Chat Room: http://www.jmdl.com/chat.cfm ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- The Indigo Girls (njc) [Jodcrazee@aol.com] Lucinda Williams (njc) [Jodcrazee@aol.com] Re: hollywood bowl setlist [mags ] Re: hollywood bowl setlist [catman ] Re: hollywood bowl setlist [mags ] Bridget Jones (NJC) ["Sue Cameron" ] Re: hollywood bowl setlist [mags ] Re: Mo' Covers: Sweet #16... [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Sue Terry on sax (NJC) ["Lori R. Fye" ] I'm traveling in some vehicle ... ["Lori R. Fye" ] cover cd #8 (et al) [christopher blake ] Let's do the Lotto thang!! Free music 4U! [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Wally's lyrics, Joni, Shawn, the Beatles, and Depeche Mode (long) [asands] Re: In defense of Yoko NJC (long) [philipf@tinet.ie] What I'd really like to ask Joni [Steve Polifka ] Little Wing (NJC) [Steve Dulson ] Joni & God ["P. Henry Boland" ] ono onanism (njc) [jan gyn ] Re: In defense of Yoko NJC (long) [dsk ] ODE/Joni fantasy ["BRIAN SYMES" ] Re: In defense of Yoko NJC (long) [Don Rowe ] imagine...the spark ["shane mattison" ] VLJC Art vs. Pop Culture [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: VLJC Art vs. Pop Culture [Don Rowe ] Re: Wally's lyrics, Joni, Shawn, the Beatles, and Depeche Mode (long) [C] Yoko Ono - njc [Catherine McKay ] Joni Mitchell: Out of the Quicksand [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] KASHMIR [SAVtheWAVE@aol.com] More Jazz Takes ["Michael Paz" ] Art vs. Pop Culture NJC [catman ] Re: Joni Mitchell: Out of the Quicksand [catman ] Re: More Jazz Takes [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: In defense of Yoko NJC (long) [Don Rowe ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 04:42:03 EDT From: Jodcrazee@aol.com Subject: The Indigo Girls (njc) Some folks have mentioned the Indigo girls on here, particularly Amy Ray's solo album. I just wanted to throw out that I like the cd. It is what you would expect from Amy- that's a good thing. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 05:09:47 EDT From: Jodcrazee@aol.com Subject: Lucinda Williams (njc) I believe it was Debra who mentioned at the end of her post she was listening to "Metal Firecracker" by Lucinda Williams on House of Blues. I was wondering if this was a commercial release or something obtained privately? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 05:57:11 -0500 From: mags Subject: Re: hollywood bowl setlist Kate Bennett wrote: > Coyote Rick adds: Victor, you forgot Janis, who will be on hand to solo > Raised on Robbery. > Kate offered this wonderful thought: and also jimi will be there to play his > lovely song little wing & tell > us that yes he did indeed write it about joni & so she will sing harmony > with him on the choruses and Mags suggests: Eva Cassidy. > > > ******************************************** > Kate Bennett > www.katebennett.com > sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com > Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: > http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html > ******************************************** - -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- _~O / /\_, ___/\ /_ - ----------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 11:29:11 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: hollywood bowl setlist > and Mags suggests: Eva Cassidy. you'll need a medium..... > > > > > > > > ******************************************** > > Kate Bennett > > www.katebennett.com > > sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com > > Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: > > http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html > > ******************************************** > > -- > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > _~O > / /\_, > ___/\ > /_ > ----------------------------------------- - -- bw colin colin@tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk http://www.geocities.com/tantra_apso/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 06:47:15 -0500 From: mags Subject: Re: hollywood bowl setlist Yes Colin... I believe that all things are possible. love, Mags. catman wrote: > > > > > > and Mags suggests: Eva Cassidy. > > you'll need a medium..... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ******************************************** > > > Kate Bennett > > > www.katebennett.com > > > sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com > > > Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: > > > http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html > > > ******************************************** > > > > -- > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > _~O > > / /\_, > > ___/\ > > /_ > > ----------------------------------------- > > -- > bw > colin > > colin@tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk > http://www.geocities.com/tantra_apso/index.html - -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- _~O / /\_, ___/\ /_ - ----------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 07:09:35 -0400 From: "Sue Cameron" Subject: Bridget Jones (NJC) Evian, Can't wait until Friday to see the movie. The list turned me on to the book (Thanks Patrick!) and when we were visiting England last summer they had just finished filming one of the scenes in a little town in the Cottswolds (Snow's Hill). Hugh Grant is to die for and the casting of Colin Firth I though amusing as he was in Pride and Prejudice a few years ago. Do you enjoy Renee Z.'s acting? She was wonderful in Nurse Betty. All for now, Sue Cameron ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 08:03:49 -0500 From: mags Subject: Re: hollywood bowl setlist oops...meant to say Eva Cassidy performing Woodstock. sweet. mags wrote: > Kate Bennett wrote: > > > Coyote Rick adds: Victor, you forgot Janis, who will be on hand to solo > > Raised on Robbery. > > Kate offered this wonderful thought: and also jimi will be there to play his > > lovely song little wing & tell > > us that yes he did indeed write it about joni & so she will sing harmony > > with him on the choruses > > and Mags suggests: Eva Cassidy. > > > > > > > ******************************************** > > Kate Bennett > > www.katebennett.com > > sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com > > Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: > > http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html > > ******************************************** > > -- > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > _~O > / /\_, > ___/\ > /_ > ----------------------------------------- - -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- _~O / /\_, ___/\ /_ - ----------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 08:15:57 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Mo' Covers: Sweet #16... <> Well, I'll tell you what I know...my good friend and research assistant Gary Zack brought this one to my attention while browsing an ASCAP website using Joni as a search. Seems this was a song she co-wrote...like I said, I don't know if it was words, melody, some of both, or if she was just hanging around when somebody else wrote it and just got credit! :~) Simon confirmed the data and said it was legit. Philip, Irish soulman & hunter extraordinaire, provided me with the track. Since it *is* technically a song she wrote, even in part, and it's performed by another artist, I thought it worthy of inclusion in its oddity. Obviously, if anyone has more info about it, step up and blab! Meanwhile, I'll see what else I can find out...the net is an incredible source of info once you start digging deep... Bob NP: Laura Nyro, "Don't Hurt Child" (Very soothing, instantly likeable from her new/posthumous release - a must have for you Laura fans!) PS: I haven't forgotten about Del...he's comin' up on #17, papaya & all! ;~) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 05:50:09 -0700 (PDT) From: "Lori R. Fye" Subject: Re: Sue Terry on sax (NJC) Terry wrote: > Holy cow, I thought someone was siccing their > attorney on me for playing the sax! Which made me giggle ... and you know, because of your name and because I think you'd really like the way Sue plays, I was thinking of you during the performance, Terry! : ) Lori in DC ~ Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 06:00:39 -0700 (PDT) From: "Lori R. Fye" Subject: I'm traveling in some vehicle ... ... in particular, on the Metro train this morning, reading "The Camino" by Shirley MacLaine. Sitting next to me is a woman who is carrying a bunch of really beautiful flowers of several varieties. She pulls them from her briefcase where they had been resting upright while she read the paper, and holds them in her hand and admires them. I am also taken with the perfection of each flower. I am about to tell her how beautiful they are. As I turn to look at the woman, I realize she looks REMARKABLY like Joni! I'm rather dumbstruck and can't say much until we get to Gallery Place (how appropriate), where I inquire whether this is her stop. Of course it is ... What a nice way to start the day! Lori, wishing she had said, "You probably hear this all the time, but ..." in DC NP: Dar Williams (on Sonicnet) ~ Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 06:10:43 -0700 (PDT) From: christopher blake Subject: cover cd #8 (et al) good morning bob! great job on the cd's! i was so excited when i saw them when i got home yesterday. i haven't heard them all yet because i want to treat myself to some later but i couldn't help diving into several. the "seeds" is amazing. 'in france...' acoustic? i almost died (in a good way). after 'seeds' there are several extra tracks that sound the same as on another show that i received. if so, no biggee. just wanted to make sure the 'seeds' bonus tracks weren't supposed to be the extra covers is all. the cover #8. the neighborhood, i am guessing, weren't living life a la the rolling stones were they? 'amelia' was fantastic. it's so cool how the melody of 'both sides now' works in a foreign language. philly was great too. it was a great gift to hear something like 'yarrow'. i am going to do a bit of research to uncover the original title to this. i have several irish musician friends (i among them) and i think i can suss this one out. i am going to be embarrassed if that is the real title but my guess is that it is not. boy is this a long message! sorry 'bout that. it's just that you gave me so much with which to sing your praises bob. have an awesome day! chris(topher) Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 09:22:43 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Let's do the Lotto thang!! Free music 4U! OK, I suppose it's time to put on my Regis hat and announce yet another Lucky Lotto for Covers, Volume 16, 19 tracks, many rare and out of print...and yes, real people DO win, just ask Jack Merkel, who's been grooving on #15! All you gotta do is send me a private message with a 3-digit number. That's it. This month's number has been chosen at random by my lovely co-worker Elba Turner, who gave me a strange look when I asked her for it, but complied nonetheless... Anyway, the lotto is open to JMDLer's everywhere, all around the world, so let's have some guesses y'all!! I will close the ballots at midnight Saturday... Bob NP: Laura Nyro, (hidden track) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 09:40:02 -0400 From: asandstrom@macromedia.com Subject: Wally's lyrics, Joni, Shawn, the Beatles, and Depeche Mode (long) Wow, Wally. I really like the lyrics, but I can't piece together the song as a whole. It kind of reminds me of the way I think Shawn Colvin writes sometimes (So do Bob Dylan and Paul Simon). There are lines that really mean something at one point and then change meaning depending on the listener's current experience and mood. And different lines in a song can take on significant meaning at various times. I've always thought this way of writing is brilliant - I wish I could do it. So, the song is a real mosaic. OK, here's an example. In Shawn's "Polaroids" she starts out Please no more therapy Mother take care of me Piece me together with a needle and thread and before you know it, we've got Forests in Germany Kids in the Tuilleries Broken down fortresses in old Italy So, we've jumped from the first verse ("please don't mistreat me") to traveling around Europe. I haven't a clue what they have to do with one another, but somehow it works. I think that Joni actually doesn't write this way. She tells a story. Generally, you can point to her songs and say "oh, that's about this." Like Barangrill. Everything in the song fits into "what Joni observes as she see the world while traveling around ambivalent about the music business." Which brings me to my dream set list. I'd really like to hear Joni do some Shawn. I think it would be interesting. How would she interpret the lyrics.? And, since I'm rambling I'll weigh in on the Beatles (pop vs. art). I suspect that in another hundred years or so, the Beatles' music will be considered something like folk art. (not folk music, mind you) Kind of like songs from the American civil war period are now. However, (even though I'm actually not a Beatles fan) I have to admire the complexity and innovation in the harmony (melodies and harmonic structure, not harmony as in "put on a harmony") of their songs. Most pop songs are kind of like simple arithmetic. Beatles songs are more like complex geometry when you analyze their melodic and harmonic structure. And FWIW, Joni's songs are complex in a different way. So, I guess I'd have to say that both Joni and the Beatles fall more in the art category than the pop category. They're just different kinds of art. And, in the "music prejudics" category... I was driving home the other night when the announcer said "Here's somthing by Depeche Mode." Well, I had to turn on the windshield wipers at that moment, so I didn't change the station. Now, I've never actually heard anything by Depeche Mode, I just somehow got it in my head that I wouldn't like anything they did. Why? I dunno! Anyway, the song was GREAT! So, I guess I should learn, as my mother would say, "never assume." After all the talk lately, maybe I should give Bjork a listen? ... I said "maybe!"... :-) And, I've never heard anything by Yoko Ono either... (my impression is that she seems very urban - probably very much influenced by New York City - and very trendy. So, see, I've half made up my mind and yet I know that's not fair. So, if I wanted to get a real flavor for her work, what would be a good introduction? Finally, thank you everyone for all the birthday wishes! Even though not everyone always plays nice, you're still the best! lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 15:00:52 +0100 From: philipf@tinet.ie Subject: Re: In defense of Yoko NJC (long) I'm glad we agree about Heatwave, Debra. So I can go at least half way with you. Yoko is probably a bad example to use in a discussion about the collision of art and commerce (which is where I'm coming from). Because Yoko is rich and famous she's not subject to the middle ground trade off between art and commerce that you spoke about. Like you said her art remains pure. I think in the end most artists find that success comes from sticking with their own vision rather than compromise. The ones that compromise are usually found out. It seems to me that the visual arts are becoming more like the music business. There's a structure of agents. PR machinery, and awards like the Turner prize and the media hype around it can turn artists like Tracey Emin and Damian Hirst into high earning celebrities. In that way the line between art and popular culture gets more blurred. Populist that I am, I think that's a good thing and overcomes some of the art world's elitist tendencies. > Joni, doing as she artistically must, has felt the negative > effects of that purity. She was hooked in enough to popular culture so that at > least she could get her work out to a mass audience, many of whom left her > after Mingus (too arty). I don't know if Mingus failed commercially because it was too arty. I would imagine that Joni applies the same level of artiness to all her work. Commercial success is based on any number of marketing issues that don't have anything to do with artistic merit. all the best, .Philip . ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 09:04:23 -0500 From: Steve Polifka Subject: What I'd really like to ask Joni I've been 20 feet from her 3 times in my life but haven't had the chance to meet her, but if i did... 1. Woud you record my song 'Cobalt Blue'? 2. Would you like to write a song together? 3. Would you invite me to your next pot-luck get together? 4. May I have your autograph? 5. If I paid for planefare, would you show up at Asharafest? We wouldn't expect any singing or anything... ;-) Steve ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 10:31:06 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Wally's lyrics, Joni, Shawn, the Beatles, and Depeche Mode (long) In a message dated 4/11/01 9:44:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, asandstrom@macromedia.com writes: << And, I've never heard anything by Yoko Ono either... (my impression is that she seems very urban - probably very much influenced by New York City - and very trendy. So, see, I've half made up my mind and yet I know that's not fair. So, if I wanted to get a real flavor for her work, what would be a good introduction? >> Double Fantasy by Lennon and Ono ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 10:39:38 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Joni's smoking agenda?? One of the fun things about this covers project for me has been corresponding with non-JMDLer's around the world gathering information about recordings. Just this week I had a nice conversation with Boots Randolph about his cover of Both Sides Now...anyway, I got this message last night from a guy and thought I would pass it along. Don't know as I totally *believe* it based on what I've heard Joni say in interviews (and I certainly don't want to start a smoking thread! ;~D), just thought some of you would find it interesting... Bob "PS - Here is a bit of Joni trivia for you. A buddy of mine was a recording engineer in the seventies and got his start by assisting with the likes of The Byrds, The Flying Burrito Brothers, Dave Mason and many others including Joni Mitchell. My friend has always loved what he calls the "clarity" of her voice. (To give you an idea of how far back this goes, he worked with her during the period when she was hooked up with David Crosby.) The following piece of trivia may be common knowledge to a Joni fan like you, but here is what he once mentioned to me. He said that in her early days she was never satisfied with her lower vocal range. She was always wanting to sing deeper. So she chain smoked cigarettes and did so for many years." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 10:44:38 EDT From: JRMCo1@aol.com Subject: Re: Bridget Jones (NJC) <> Thank you for mentioning Renee Zellweger and the new movie she's in, Sue. I absolutely adore her and find her acting quite inspired. She was awarded a Golden Globe for "Nurse Betty," if memory serves. Hugh who? ;-) One of the highlights of my day on Monday was watching Katie Couric interview Renee on the "Today" show, as Katie is my favorite TV personality and Renee rocks my movie world. The two of them are so talented and successful, yet so sweet, self-effacing and real. If you want to see Renee's best dramatic work, check out "A Price Above Rubies" (1998), wherein Renee plays a rebellious Hassidic Jew who is married to a deeply religious rabbi. - -Julius np: "Today" show on the telly ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 10:00:19 -0500 From: Steve Polifka Subject: [none] >Wally Kairuz wrote: Subject: explain my song to me NJC >reading the lyrics of a song that i wrote 25 years ago, i >realized that i >didn't understand what the song was about anymore. does this >situation make >any sense to you folks? Hey Wally! I've been writing songs and poems for 28 years, and when I go back to the early years, I experience some of the same feelings about my old material. I think it means that we are growing and evolving. I'm very okay with not understanding or appreciating my old stuff. I like what I'm doing now! Be well, Steve Steve ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 08:24:58 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Little Wing (NJC) Victor wrote; >When I was up in the mountains this weekend at the wedding, Bootlegg Shaman >played the most awesome version of "Little Wing" I've ever heard them do. Must be something in the air. Friday at the Long Beach Grand Prix Danny Ott of Chris Gaffney's Cold Hard Facts band played a killer Little Wing. Way, way cool. - -- ######################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://www.tinkersown.com "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://www.cpmusic.com/scdh "The Living Tradition Concert Series" http://www.thelivingtradition.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 02:15:19 +1000 From: "P. Henry Boland" Subject: Joni & God University of Delaware... Jewish Theology 101... Woodstock Lyrics required reading: http://udel.edu/~dsilver/phil367/Theologypage00.htm Get 250 color business cards for FREE! at Lycos Mail http://mail.lycos.com/freemail/vistaprint_index.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 09:55:09 -0700 From: jan gyn Subject: ono onanism (njc) At 10:31 AM 4/11/01 -0400, IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 4/11/01 9:44:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >asandstrom@macromedia.com writes: ><< And, I've never heard anything by Yoko Ono either... (my impression is that >she seems very urban - probably very much influenced by New York City - and >very trendy. So, see, I've half made up my mind and yet I know that's not >fair. So, if I wanted to get a real flavor for her work, what would be a >good introduction? >> > >Double Fantasy by Lennon and Ono 'Double Fantasy' was for me too shmoopy. I hear that that Live in Toronto 1969, with the blue sky cover with the cloud is pretty good. A few years ago I saw an exhibit of her 60s art, and I thought it fantastic. - -jan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 13:44:13 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: In defense of Yoko NJC (long) philipf@tinet.ie wrote: > I don't know if Mingus failed commercially because it was too arty. I > would imagine that Joni applies the same level of artiness to all her work. Good point. She's always experimented and been very particular about her work. Mingus was a creative experiment that went too far afield for most people to appreciate, so for shorthand purposes I called it too arty. > Commercial success is based on any number of marketing issues that don't > have anything to do with artistic merit. I agree, and it's hard to know what all the issues are. When there's big money involved it gets even harder to sort out. Many collectors do hope to make a profit on their purchases and thus have a big stake in keeping an artist's name "out there"; and the gallery that sold them the work does too and they have access to the media and can feed it all positive information, accurate or not. I think Tyler mentioned luck and who you know as being incredibly important where art is concerned. It is, as it is in every field. It takes a while, decades or even centuries, for the gems to shine clearly. So all the hype around art or music or whatever today's greatest anything is has to be taken with a big grain of salt. Debra Shea NP: Richard Buckner, Rainsquall ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 10:53:21 -0700 From: "BRIAN SYMES" Subject: ODE/Joni fantasy "The Ode by Pyramus " was great. I was thinking about this getting read with a Joni song behind it. Like Allen Ginsburg reading Howl with Charlie Parker Boppin behind him. My Joni fantasy is Joni playing a Paprika Plains on a Baby Grand in my great room at my House, of course I would give The west coast JMDL a few days notice. Bye - ----------------------- Free Email Service provided to you by Office.com, a service from Winstar ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 11:02:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: In defense of Yoko NJC (long) The borderline separating "high art" and "popular culture" is a ficticious one, as artists like Andy Warhol, Roy Lichtenstein and the other Pop Art figures so eloquently pointed out. "Art" and "popular culture" co-exist, overlap, intermingle and share common purposes to the point where no "real" difference exists. And it never did ... the Pop Artists realized this, and highlighted it in their work. As a musical example, Robert Schumann, during his life, never published the Symphonies and Chamber works for which he is now so famous. Schumann made his living & reputation as a writer of "popular" songs ... which along with his suppposedly "serious work", are now considered pillar of the "classical" repetiore. Just thought I try and "catch this swan on the grass" ... ;-) Don Rowe ===== Visit me anytime at http://www.mp3.com/donrowe Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 12:29:24 -0600 From: "shane mattison" Subject: imagine...the spark i'm always running behind the time...just like this train getting my post at a quarter to three with the brakes complaining... clickety clack to the hollywood bowl and a bottle of french wine to drink thinkin' of the pleasure i had with the next days' reelin' read... i'm readin' rusty, kate and shea my reverie is wanting days when jaco showed, we were crazy with joy's laughter 'cause we found our hearts following after i found my heart... and she's over the kitchen sink and the songs come because some have to...they come unbidden...like old friends...remember me? remember me at the pink hotel? the sunset with the whale slappin' its tail and the conch shell billowing?new songs would come too... the bowl would take in the bidding twilite...with metheny teasing with his fingers..."there are some lines you put there...and some you erase"... and i pick up my humour again, for sometimes its only a distant friend who can point the way...like a message in a bottle...and then i can play again...patience... yes i would ask for don juan...but flowing, like debra said, into some new frontier of improvisation...a song about georgia o'keefe, maybe...or miles davis...or vangogh... ...and maybe jane siberry would improvise with her, and kate, and who of you? and maybe go saunterin' down with our wine...walking down venice and go hear tom waits into the wee hours... and metheny and shorter and i would end up standing on a beach cliff listening to the waves and the gulls... and reflect upon the ladies who sang that night... and some meaning, some peace beckons like a distant ship light on the horizon... thank you...a friend or two... patience... shane tom cat ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 14:41:51 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: VLJC Art vs. Pop Culture <> I dunno, Don...I would say there's a definite border in every aspect of art. The visual arts are not my strength, but I would say that Dogs playing poker, Velvet Elvises, and those spooky waifs with the big eyes are not done with "creative art" in mind but rather are done to make money, to make product, not to make an artistic statement. Are they pop culture? Certainly. Art? I would say no. Certainly in the realms of film & music, it would be hard to argue that the "pop" artists of the day (Backstreet Boys, Britney, Christina, etc) are anything other than simple tools used to sell product, talented though they may be. Pop music is just different in scope & purpose than most classical, jazz, and Joni. It all has it's place & purpose, and comparisons between the two are superfluous. Maybe that's why I was embarrassed for Joni to see her in that bracket for her Grammy. Likewise in film, there are directors and producers who seek to tell a story, to make an artistic statement. By the same token there are the ones who just set out to fill movie seats and sell tickets and popcorn. I'm glad we have them all. It's also nice when the two overlap, like you say..."Life Is Beautiful" would be a film that comes to mind, and "Court & Spark" would be an album, that achieves both artistic and pop culture success. But just because they CAN overlap and intersect doesn't mean that they *have to* by definition, or that the borders don't exist. Even Joni says that the success of C&S was a fluke, that where she was musically just happened to coincide with the zeitgeist. Certainly a topic worthy of discussion! Bob NP: Laura Nyro, "Sweet Dream Fade" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 12:00:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: VLJC Art vs. Pop Culture Sorry, but this discussion would be lacking without a quote from Ian Shoales of the Duck's Breath Home-Made Radio Theatre ... and one of my favorite SATIRISTS (just to we're clear) ;-) ... "So what is art? Art is a grant proposal. Let's say it's a video piece elaborately entitled 'A Times Meditation on the Physical World', or some other such grant-proposal doubletalk. The video artist fires off a letter to the Foundation, and gets a check back for $7,500. He spends a weekend shooting wax fruit from the underside of plate glass coffee table, dubs over some synthesizers and a monotone voice-over in French ... then blows the rest of the dough on cheap red jug wine so he can argue with his cronies whether imagism is decadent or not. There is no such thing as video 'art.' When are people going to realize the only thing television is good for is news, sports and game shows." Just had to share that! Don Rowe ===== Visit me anytime at http://www.mp3.com/donrowe Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 15:13:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Wally's lyrics, Joni, Shawn, the Beatles, and Depeche Mode (long) - --- asandstrom@macromedia.com wrote: > And, in the "music prejudics" category... I was > driving home the other night > when the announcer said "Here's somthing by Depeche > Mode." ... > After all the talk > lately, maybe I should give > Bjork a listen? ... I said "maybe!"... :-) LOL! I do that all the time! There are groups or individuals I *just decide* I'm not going to like for some weird reason, often because *everybody's* talking about them, and I don't like doing what *everybody's* doing (just to be ornery). I'll confess my main reason for avoiding Bjork is I have no idea how to pronounce her name (like, you go into a record store, and you want to ask, "Do you have anything by.... Bork? Beeyork? Bajork?"), people in the media keep describing her as "elfin" (which I'm sure she must hate - I would!) and I also have this thing about people who go by only one name. It seems kind of pretentious to me, but I guess she can get away with it because there probably aren't a lot of Bjorks around! Anyway, it's just a stupid prejudice, I guess. People with first names like Catherine usually have to use their last names all the time, so I'm just jealous. > > And, I've never heard anything by Yoko Ono either... > (my impression is that > she seems very urban - probably very much influenced > by New York City - and > very trendy. To me, Yoko Ono's music is more like vocal art than singing. Certainly not to everyone's taste, but she's not the antichrist either. I don't know if I'd call her trendy - trend-setting, maybe. Have you ever listened to the little sound-bites that you can get from the various on-line CD places, like CDNow and so on? It would give you a hint, but unfortunately the snips aren't always long enough to get a true flavour of how anyone really sounds. (Now that I have a computer at home with sound, I'm checking out a lot of this stuff, and just recently discovered how easy - and fast - it is to copy music onto your PC, and can't wait to buy some CD RWs to go the other way; then maybe I can become a branch of some tree somewhere; but I'm getting ahead of myself here. One step at a time). Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 15:34:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Yoko Ono - njc I had no idea what Yoko's "art art" was like, so I did a search under "Yoko Ono" and came up with one that is a kind of cool little website, in that you end up wandering around (just like a real art show), and when you click here and there, you don't always end up where you might think you would. If you've got the time, give this a try - it's kind of cool. http://www.artcommotion.com/Issue2/moca/ Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 16:14:46 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Joni Mitchell: Out of the Quicksand This is a great interview, but be prepared, it's lengthy (but well worth it!) Never knew that Joni originally envisioned TTT with only her and Brian Blade... http://209.144.99.11/users/rug/archive/win_96/feat14_2/JONI1.HTM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 16:27:28 EDT From: SAVtheWAVE@aol.com Subject: KASHMIR I am just in ( last night ) from visiting London and all the JMDLers that met for what was a nice evening at the Kashmir Klub and it was a pleasure and a joy to meet all that attended. Wish I could remember all that were there, Paul, Les, Rob, Martin, Jacky, her daughter ( briefly ) and Azeem ( is it?). I know I have left a couple of names out, but am still trying to get my legs back and my sense of time being back in the U.S. What a wonderful evening listening to several groups of very talented musicians. The venue was terrific, sort of what I expected to find in London; a basement type arena, very tightly packed with people and same cavelike alcoves for those that wanted to tuck themselves away for a more intimate evening. We had a great table, so close to the stage and meeting all of those from the list from so far away is always a nice memory, one that I will be happy to keep for many years. Thanks to Martin and Jackie for arranging it all. I think London would be a terrific place to have a Joni Fest with people from all over the world. I couldn't help but feel like I was going to attending a People's Party, fumbling deaf, dumb and blind until I got there and found so many super people, most unknown to one another and just having a common denominator ( Joni ) made me feel bonded somewhat. Thanks to you all. Joe ( in Rhode Island ) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 15:21:41 -0500 From: "Michael Paz" Subject: More Jazz Takes Hello Gang- I have been listening to David Lahm's new CD for over two weeks now and have been trying to get around to posting about it. I have my cd player programmed to listen to it in the order ( 1, 9,11,10,2, 8, 5, 6, 3, 4, 7) that he David had intended it to be sequenced before (I assume) the record company got involved, but I digress. The real charm of this record is that it boasts 4 original David Lahm tunes. I had only heard one of them before which is Wayne Swirled, that Lahm performed live in New Orleans last year at JoniFest2000 New Orleans. One of the amazing things about the record is listening to these original jazz compositions right next to the compositions of folk singer/singer-songwriter, Joni Mitchell (ok now my tongue is FIRMLY planted in cheek we all know she is worldwide musically). Unlike the first record where he picked more tunes that were pre Joni's established Jazz era like Fiddle and The Drum, Blonde in the Bleachers, etc., Dave picked some real jazz gems for this record. On both records though I think it shows that even Joni's pre-jazz era shows that here whole approach to music was one that was radically different than most of her all of her contemporary songwriters. The BEST thing on this new record is Ladies of the Canyon which he plays as a solo piece and it is simply beautiful. I had the honour of having David as a guest in my home not once but twice and we were treated to him playing solo piano right in our very own living room. I was able to jam with him as well and also here him with several of my favorite JMDL vocalists, but then I keep digressing yet again. For whatever reason David chooses not to feature his piano playing more prominently in the recordings, this would be my only complaint about the Jazz/Joni series recordings. If there is a new Lahm production in the works I would love to hear MORE piano from a very fine player. With this said, David's ability to take a back seat on his own recordings is truly amazing. His arrangements allow his very gifted sideman to shine through to beautiful results. Of all of his original songs included in this set I favour San Diego Holiday for the sheer joy that jumps out of this recording. My favorite arrangement for the band of the Joni songs, is In France They Kiss On Mainstreet. Jason Marsalis Band did this one at JoniFest here and I was blown away by his arrangement, but David's arrangement takes it alot farther especially in the area of bass. Great playing and really interesting textures of tone and sound. This one really swings! The band really stretchs things out here and it is wonderful execution as an ensemble. Another of my faves from the Joni collection is Offnight Backstreet. Her version is amazing and I have wanted to cover it myself for years, but can't find the groove between my heart, left and right brain, mouth, and hands. David's treatment here is more of a ballad than Joni's approach and it works beautifully. The melody shines through more prominently and the horns are really sweet on this one. Woodstock has two versions the album opener and the final cut radio (clean) version. I guess the language and phrasing was just too much for modern day radio (just kidding!). Don Juan's Restless Daughter from the era when Joni was so deep into the jazz thing with Jaco, Pat, et al. is a natural for this band. The interplay between the horn instruments is extremely well done and the rhythm section holds up a swinging groove for this interplay to just fly. I really like the mute trumpet part in this song (which I assume is Randy Brecker). The horn section on Walk This Way (another Lahm original) is once again stellar you can almost feel them grinning on this one. The joy just shines out. Brecker's solo here is sheer excellence (and you know we got some trumpet players around New Orleans. This guy could hang in the birthplace of jazz and we would welcome him with open arms). The Silky Veils of Ardor is another beautiful piece that leans nods towards the ballad approach. I love Ron Vincent's hands on approach to the drums on this one. This is truly another beautiful piece and had we had an independent NON BIAS producer we might have turned up the piano player in the mix more. Vibeca the final Lahm original on the album boasts a really cool bass solo by Ratso Harris. Brazilian feel always does it for me, if you want the keys to the city you should add more percussion and maybe a gut string guitar. Black Crow is as straight jazz as you can get and the interplay between the horns again is swinging. I would love to see David tour this stuff as well as the first record. Hearing him live in New Orleans with a pick up band was So much fun and his arrangements I think go over very well with a live audience and would be great in jazz clubs like Snug Harbor that we have here in New Orleans. While I am wishing for stuff like this (and Joni playing piano on tour again). I wish David would do a record with other instruments besides the regular saxes, trumpets as lead instruments. There are still tons more Joni songs you could do some more arrangements for and take a few wild turns. More solo piano stuff as well! But hey David don't go changing just to please US, we love you just the way you are. I hope you ALL go out and buy this new record and the first Jazz Takes on Joni Mitchell if you don't have them AND I hear he is hosting a JoniFest in NYC on Memorial Day weekend which we want to hear more details about what's going on at Judy's Chelsea. I wish I could be there, but it is still doubtful due to family obligations (if it were just my job I would blow it off, but my kids have to come first).Anyways, I have gone on long enough, check this record out for your own selves and enjoy the music. Cheers David and I hope you do great with this one. Peace Michael NP-Wayne Swirled ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 21:36:54 +0100 From: catman Subject: Art vs. Pop Culture NJC > < culture" is a ficticious one, >> Anything that a human being creates is art. A car is art, a plane, a building, a painting, a sculpture, a piece of furniture, an item of clothing....all are art. Some of it is so common place we don't even look at it. Maybe we don't even notice how it affects us. The borderline between high art and pop culture is the same one that exists between lower class and upper class...... All in the mind of the person creating the border. Creating is important to me. I know my work is art. It doesn't matter to me what other people call it. Some like it, some don't. Most importantly, I like it. bw colin discalimer: the above is my opinion only. It is not meant to denigrate anyone of a differring opinion. I might think you are a pratt for not sharing my opinion, but I am far too gentlemanly to say so. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 21:57:00 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Joni Mitchell: Out of the Quicksand Thanks for posting this. An interesting article. I didn't understand most of it(not understanding tunings etc) but came away thinking it explained why she sounds so different live. I also like her guts tho I can imagine it would irritate some. I liked what she had to say about 'hip' too, having never been part of the herd myself! I would think it must be very painful for Joni to get passed over the way she does because of people's prejudices. I also now feel a little guilty for liking DED so much! It is apparent she doesn't like it much! Did I mention already the other day that I think the intro to Emtpy is like the intro to Floyd's Money? SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > This is a great interview, but be prepared, it's lengthy (but well worth it!) > > Never knew that Joni originally envisioned TTT with only her and Brian Blade... > > http://209.144.99.11/users/rug/archive/win_96/feat14_2/JONI1.HTM - -- bw colin colin@tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk http://www.geocities.com/tantra_apso/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 17:08:01 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: In defense of Yoko NJC (long) Don Rowe wrote: > The borderline separating "high art" and "popular > culture" is a ficticious one, as artists like Andy > Warhol, Roy Lichtenstein and the other Pop Art figures > so eloquently pointed out. I have to disagree with this. I think there's always been a separation between high art and popular culture, although the two are closer today than they've ever been and sometimes overlap. Traditionally, high art was purchased by the wealthy and usually kept in their homes or private chapels, and "folk art" was the popular culture art. Even when the church was the primary patron, the best work, the Sistine Chapel for instance, was private. Now it's still the wealthy purchasing $100,000 paintings but there's also a museum system so other people can experience the work also. And most people can afford a cd of a modern composer's latest composition, although not many would be going to the black-tie world premiere of that music. > "Art" and "popular culture" co-exist, overlap, > intermingle and share common purposes to the point > where no "real" difference exists. And it never did > ... the Pop Artists realized this, and highlighted it > in their work. Art and popular culture do overlap sometimes, but I disagree on their having common purposes. What makes something part of popular culture is how pleasing and affordable it is to huge numbers of people. Art sometimes comments on popular culture, among other things, but is not usually affordable or pleasing to huge numbers of people. It can be (Bob's mention of Court and Spark is a good example), but that's not its goal. The Pop Artists were all about returning art openly to the world of commerce, and they used popular culture images with which to do that, resulting in the packaging together of high art, popular culture and commerce. Most of them were trained as commercial artists and they returned art to being a product (albeit still a very expensive one) instead of a miraculous creation by a solitary tortured genius, which is a myth developed by the Impressionists that had a strong hold through the Abstract Expressionists; the "starving artist" idea is a remnant of that myth. Before the Impressionists, paintings were done in studios with plenty of assistants to grind the paints and in turn be taught by the master, and having a patron and doing art to order was all part of the system. The Impressionists were the first artists able to buy paint in tubes so they were no longer tied to a studio and an arduous paint-preparing routine, so off they went... solitary geniuses all (an example of manufacturing technology influencing art and people's attitudes). Such above-the-fray-of-the-marketplace romanticism was destroyed by the Pop Artists on several fronts. Using common, "manufactured", already-existing images was one way. Warhol employing assistants in his Factory, which was a return to the studio system, was another way. Now, most "blue chip" artists employ assistants to do the actual work, under their direction, and their name is being sold as much as the actual artwork is, which is the case with most products. Except for the 100 or so years between the Impressionists and Pop Artists, this is the way the creating and business of art has usually been done. > As a musical example, Robert Schumann, during his > life, never published the Symphonies and Chamber works > for which he is now so famous. Schumann made his > living & reputation as a writer of "popular" songs ... > which along with his suppposedly "serious work", are > now considered pillar of the "classical" repetiore. He's early to mid-19th century, so pre-Impressionists. I don't know enough about musicians to give a story about late 19th century composers; I wonder if they became "solitary geniuses" too. I've done lots of disagreeing here, Don, but I hope you realize it's without rancor or disagreeing just for the sake of arguing. Once I get started on this art stuff that I love, there's not much holding back... atb, Debra Shea NP: Richard Buckner, Hutchinson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 17:13:54 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: More Jazz Takes Great review, Michael...I'm gonna have to go check on my special order and see what's keeping my copy!! I may have to open up a can of whupass on Gene, the guy who runs the store! :~) And this tribute news flash just in: Besides the Reprise Joni tribute, it looks like a bunch of indies are gonna be putting out a special tribute to "Blue" this year! I don't have much in the way of details, but I'll share info as I get it... Bob NP: Al Jarreau, "Better Than Anything" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 14:23:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: In defense of Yoko NJC (long) - --- dsk wrote: > Traditionally, high art > was purchased by the wealthy and usually kept in > their homes or private > chapels, and "folk art" was the popular culture art. Well that's merely an economic & by extension, a class distinction. That patrons like the DiMedicis were rich, doesn't mean that they didn't commission works of art for decorative, devotional or functional purposes, only that they paid more for it. It doesn't change the fundamental function of the creative work itself ... only the price tag. In this respect, the humble wooden triptych and the Sistene Chapel remain essentially identical -- both existing as iconographic depictions of Biblical scenes and stories executed to stir the emotions of the faithful. > He's (Schumann) early to mid-19th century, so > pre-Impressionists. I don't know > enough about musicians to give a story about late > 19th century > composers; I wonder if they became "solitary > geniuses" too. I'm no art historian as you can tell, and no more of a music historian, truth be told. But I think the composers got to the "tortured artist" thing long before the Impressionists ... with Mozart and Beethoven coming particularly to mind. Though I'll be the first to admit that their torture could easily be more the product of 20th Century Hollywood movies than historical fact. On the other hand, a great many composers and performers, Paganini comes to mind ... walked with one foot in the palaces and another in the village square ... so to speak. Again, blurring that distinction betwixt "hi" and "lo" art. Isn't it cool when we can have civil discourse? :-) Don Rowe ===== Visit me anytime at http://www.mp3.com/donrowe Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2001 #172 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?