From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2001 #169 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Tuesday, April 10 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 169 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. Information on the 4th "Annual" New England JoniFest: http://www.jmdl.com/jfne2001.cfm The Joni Chat Room: http://www.jmdl.com/chat.cfm ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Word Quiz Answers NJC ["Rob Ettridge" ] Re: Some thoughts [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Word Quiz Answers NJC ["Rob Ettridge" ] Re: Keb Mo' does Joni!! [JRMCo1@aol.com] re bjork NJC ["Martin Giles" ] Re: Some thoughts [Dflahm@aol.com] Tanglewood [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] In defense of Yoko NJC [Tyler Hewitt ] Re: In defense of Yoko NJC [Ricw1217@aol.com] Re: In defense of Yoko NJC ["C.A. Starkey" ] Re: In defense of Yoko NJC ["C.A. Starkey" ] Re: our differeing tastes [Catherine McKay ] Re: Survivor No More - now njc [Catherine McKay ] Re: Everyday People NJC [Catherine McKay ] Blame it all on Smoe [Les Irvin ] RE: This list ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: Mo' Covers: Sweet #16... [Catherine McKay ] Re: Blame it all on Smoe [catman ] Re: our differeing tastes [catman ] Re: In defense of Yoko NJC [catman ] Re: Blame it all on Smoe ["Kakki" ] Three Dog night [Relayer211@aol.com] Re: Bjorko Ono [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Joni's autobiography [Relayer211@aol.com] Re: This list ["Kakki" ] This List NJC ["kerry" ] Re: Three Dog night [Gary Zack ] Re: In defense of Yoko NJC ["C.A. Starkey" ] List woes...... NJC ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: This list - NJC [Michael Paz ] Re: List woes...... NJC [Michael Paz ] Re: In defense of Yoko NJC [dsk ] Re: Three Dog night [Coyote4Joni@aol.com] Re: Blame it all on Smoe [Coyote4Joni@aol.com] What I'd really love to ask Joni. [Richard Rice ] april 10th!!!!!! njc! ["Wally Kairuz" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 20:46:12 +0100 From: "Rob Ettridge" Subject: Word Quiz Answers NJC 1. Jocund 2. Oxford 3. Nodded 4. Intend 5. Marred 6. Indeed 7. Tiered 8. Candid 9. Hatred 10. Expand 11. Lizard 12. Legend Rob NP Only One - Joan Armatrading _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 17:24:25 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Some thoughts <> Welcome to you, Dave!! He can give you more scoop, but I'll bet you can catch listmember David Lahm's show in NY. He's released two CD's worth of jazz interpretations of Joni's songs and plays at Chelsea's. Changing the subject, is "Tanglewood" the city in Mass or the name of the venue? If the latter, what town is it in? Bob NP (Now Playing): Joe Jackson, "Jamie G." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 21:04:05 +0100 From: "Rob Ettridge" Subject: Word Quiz Answers NJC 1. Jocund 2. Oxford 3. Nodded 4. Intend 5. Marred 6. Indeed 7. Tiered 8. Candid 9. Hatred 10. Expand 11. Lizard 12. Legend Rob NP Only One - Joan Armatrading _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 12:39:28 EDT From: JRMCo1@aol.com Subject: Re: Keb Mo' does Joni!! Keb is very cool. Thanks for the update, Bob. I was just noticing an advance copy of this CD on eBay, for those who just can't wait. "Grandma's Hands" is a Bill Withers cover, one of my many favorites from BW. And I bet "America the Beautiful" is an homage to the classic Ray Charles rendition. Keb Mo is performing at the New Orleans Jazz and Heritage in early May. I'm going to be sure and check him out. - -Julius Bob reports: < Subject: re bjork NJC Louis Lynch attacked Emily roundly and thoroughly for her objections to Marcel's 'dissing' of Bjork, and finished with a patronising reference to the definition of a joke.. Marcel responded with a silly top ten list -- he was making a joke (Webster: "2. something said or done in sport and not seriously"). YOU chose to respond with an ugly personal attack against Marcel because he wrote something you didn't like. Thanks for sharing. Harper Lou Keeping it on the same level Lou, my Oxford English dictionary defines satire thus.. The use of ridicule, irony, sarcasm etc., to expose folly or vice or to lampoon an individual. Can you tell me how Marcel's post was exposing folly or vice? I speak as someone who loves true satire, but couldn't find it there. I didn't find Marcel's post satirical, or funny, just ugly. Martin. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 17:15:08 EDT From: Dflahm@aol.com Subject: Re: Some thoughts Tanglewood is a venue in Lenox, Massachusetts, Bob. Its name probably dates back to when it was a private estate. It is the summer home of the Boston Symphony. Lenox is about 7 miles from Pittsfield, MA and about a 3 to 3-1/2 hour car drive from New York. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 17:46:40 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Tanglewood << Tanglewood is a venue in Lenox, Massachusetts, Bob. Its name probably dates back to when it was a private estate. It is the summer home of the Boston Symphony. >> Hey, thanks for the info, David. Don't know why Smoe took 4 days to deliver my question, but better late than never I guess. I got a 2-CD set of the show that Joni did in Tanglewood in '79, and wanted to correctly identify the venue, so much thanks for the help! Bob NP: Ani live ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 15:12:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Tyler Hewitt Subject: In defense of Yoko NJC I've had to do this SO many times, but here it is yet again... ...Both (Bjork and Yoko) are among those who submit lack of remedial skills (in this case in musicianship) for "cutting edge" art. In Yoko's case she IS making cutting edge art. With those early lp's Yoko wasn't making music. She was making auditory conceptual art. That people in the pop world coulden't see it for what it was isn't her fault. Yoko is an ARTIST, not a pop singer. She had worked with John Cage, John Cale (later of the Velvet Underground) and LaMonte Young years before she met John Lennon. ...I know that there have been many "artists" who have no ability... Name some. Outsider artists don't count. ...who are "appreciated" by critics and it is mostly because of their political agenda or some non-art related aspect of their life. I can't think of any myself. I don't appreciate Jeff Koons any more because he married an Italian porn star. There is a trend in contemporary art to appreciate the idea over the craft. This has nothing to do with politics or who you fucked. Interestingly, it was the work of people like Yoko Ono who paved the way for this value placed on ideas. ...The insider clique demands little or no basic skills of those who carry the flag while those who may be skillful but dont carry the flag face a high barrier to fame and recognition. Just who is this insider clique? What flag? Your idea that popularity = politics is ridiculous at best. It has a lot more to do with luck and who you know. ...Just picture if you would that Yoko was a vocal born again Christian. Do you really think she would get any praise for her art? Yeah, I guess you're right. No one has ever praised The Staple Singers, Aretha Franklin, The Clark Sisters, Mahailia Jackson, Amy Grant, Andre Crouch, Fontella Bass, U2, etc. Being a Christian dooms you to the closet, artisticaly speaking. Maybe Satan really does run the record industry. All sarcasm aside, Yoko 1. does not sing gospel, it's not her style, and her style isn't one that would carry well into gospel and 2. Hasn't recieved nearly the amount of praise she deserves. ...If Yoko had not screwed John lennon she would never have been recognized for anything. It was only because of her relationship that she was allowed access to the entertainment industry. You may disagree but thats my take. And your take is sexist, ignorant and (horror of horrors) makes the assumption that the entertainment industry is the pinnacle of creative success. Greater heaps of bullshit I havn't encountered in a while! Yoko had achieved a great deal of notariety and success in the art world years before she met Lennon. She was a prime mover in the Fluxus art movement, an extremely significant development in art that paved the way for conceptual art, performance art, and postmodernism. She was also instrumental in opening up the art world to women and minorities (that's still much more of an ongoing battle than it ever should be). I would argue that hooking up with John was very BAD for her career. All of a sudden she was held to a new standard-the considerably less important yet more influential word of pop culture. Yoko's ideas, while extremely important and relevant to the art world, were seen as weird to the world at large. John tried to help people to see the beauty of her ideas, instead was seen as being sucked into her circle of weirdness. Had Yoko not met John, I think we would see Yoko Ono work in the collections of major contemporary art museums around the world. We would relate to her the way we relate to Robert Rauchenberg or Gerhard Richter or John Cage. Instead, she is, to the vast majority of those who have heard of her, 'that asian bitch who took the Beatles away from us'. Sorry, folks. Yoko DID NOT break up the Beatles. That was gonna happen no matter what. She DID NOT brainwash Lennon. She did open his eyes to a world he never knew existed. Think back for a second. Ever had one of those life changing moments where all of a sudden everything you know to be true is suddenly called into question? Where your little mind gets blown so wide open that the new ideas come rushing in and crowd out everything else? For some people, their first acid trip did this. For others, reading 'Catch 22' did it. For John, it was Yoko. Chew that around a bit. Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 18:35:30 EDT From: Ricw1217@aol.com Subject: Re: In defense of Yoko NJC In a message dated 4/9/01 6:18:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tahewitt@yahoo.com writes: > . With > those early lp's Yoko wasn't making music. She was > making auditory conceptual art. That people in the pop > world coulden't see it for what it was isn't her > well THANK YOU! i was reading these comments and could not face the idea of having to take on the defense of yoko yet again. conceptual, avant garde art is not for everyone. but it gets pretty tiresome having to hear people who just can't get it dismiss it as worthless. such arrogance! and yes, I'LL certainly (and gladly) say it: such stupidity! you end up sounding like those idiots who fell all over themselves to scorn the artist who put the crucifix in a container filled with his urine, or the morons who look at a picasso and say "my 5 year old draws better pictures than this!" jaysus! i expect more from the JMDL. (although i am less sure why, of late...) what a crank i am these days! ric ps. and for those of you who just can't figure bjork out...email me privately and i will make you a copy of "human behavior". but only if you promise you will play it on your little stereos at high volume. 4 or 5 minutes of your lives. those tribal drums will make believers out of you, i feel certain! and i'd be willing to bet she sings better than any of you do. i've heard many of you at the joni fest and i'd take bjork ANY DAY OF THE WEEK!!! no offense intended. (i think) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 19:10:07 -0400 From: "C.A. Starkey" Subject: Re: In defense of Yoko NJC Recommended links: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/friendsofyoko *The best Yoko Ono discussion list around* http://www.kaapeli.fi/aiu *A very good Yoko site by an FOY'er named Sari Gurney* http://www.instantkarma.com *The online Yoko, John, Sean, and even Julian source by another FOY'er Marsha Ewing* http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NoSpinBeatlesZone *My discussion list, no one posts, I am utterly convinced people like things that are wrapped into pretty packages, but please join, so we can talk about the Beatles and the Solo stuff in a mature way.* I can't add much to this letter, you pretty much said it all, Tyler. I'm pretty new to Yoko, see I came to her through the Beatles. But in the beginning I was that ignorant, 'that asian bitch who took the Beatles away from us'. I also didn't like Linda McCartney, either. I'm 30 years old, and I got into the Beatles in 1992. But, whenever you get "into" something, you know what it is like being a "newbie", people show you the ropes. And in Beatlefandom101 one of the "lessons" is to hate Yoko no questions asked. I'm not special, I just realized one day while watching the behaviour of some Beatles fans, that I thought to myself, "Do I want to be *THAT*?" And I stopped. I like Yoko and Linda. I don't hate them for the stupid reasons I used to. I am starting to prefer John to Paul, because there is a corporate-ness about Paul that is very hard to shake-off, that, and I don't like his involvement with PETA. (But let's not even go there, because those subjects can turn nasty!) We talked about this on FOY, I am glad John and Yoko got together, they are soulmates. In an industry dogged, especially now by disposible couples, it gives me something to look forward to in life that I can find my soulmate too. I do agree though if Yoko had not got involved with John she probably would have more respect in the art world, because The-Dragon-Lady-Who- Broke-Up-The-Beatles would not even be an issue. I'm don't own many Yoko pieces, but what I have I treasure the Walking on Thin Ice CD, the YES book, some YES stuff an FOY'er sent me as well as the John and Yoko books that I have. I wish you could send that message about Yoko NOT breaking up the Beatles to every Beatles and solo forum out there. The most ignorant side of the fence comes from 95% of the Paul McCartney-fanatics. They are brutal regarding Yoko. (and John). They take Julian Lennon's anger and use it to further their hatred of Yoko, disgusting. And I hate it when they play the race card and then deny they are not. Alot of bigotry going on in the supposed peace and love in the Beatles community. I still love the Beatles, but I don't put anyone on a pedestal, god I don't want to quote the super schmaltzy "Ebony and Ivory", but there is good and bad in everyone. I have not seen acceptable hatred in this country (and the world) for hating Yoko! But, I'm not going to be some cookie-cutter fan who can only like what certain people tell me to like. I am me. I'll end this on a positive note alot of younger people actually don't care about how the Beatles broke up, some like Yoko, some don't care one way or the other. But alot of younger people actually think she is cool. That's progress. Cheers, Carol Starkey (no relation to Richard Starkey, MBE.) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 19:15:56 -0400 From: "C.A. Starkey" Subject: Re: In defense of Yoko NJC *I did it again! I don't proofread until after I send* *Sorry* That should read: I have not seen this much acceptable hatred in this country (and the world) regarding hating Yoko! Carol ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 19:17:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: our differeing tastes - --- Tyler Hewitt wrote: > This will get some peoples' blood pressure up, but > two > names spring to mind for me when I think of BAD > vocalists (outside of the obvious like Mrs. Miller): > Fiona Apple and Stevie Nicks. > LOL - I don't see Stevie's appeal, either, but a lot of people do (many on this list). I don't think I've ever heard Fiona, just about her - must check out this truly bad singing ;) Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 19:18:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Survivor No More - now njc - --- Rusty10113@aol.com wrote: > Well, a sad day, as I've just discovered Joni was > voted off Rolling Stone's > Survivor island on April 6th... well, at least she > lasted longer than > Jennifer Lopez, Britney Spears and Christina > Aguilera! > > M I've never been able to understand why anyone would want to *stay* on the island - I'd be doing everything I could to get voted off first! Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 19:22:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Everyday People NJC - --- Coyote4Joni@aol.com wrote: > Well, we learn > something everyday. ... I also > thought Sly's last name was in fact Stone. > Sylvester Stone So did I - and let's not get him mixed up with Sylvester (Sly) Stallone! Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 17:27:39 -0600 From: Les Irvin Subject: Blame it all on Smoe Joniphiles - I've been out in Vegas on business ringing the bandit's bells (thanks Bobster) for the last week and have not been reading the list at all. But, I'm back and it seems like it's time to address a few things. The Chat room. Hmmm.... it does look like it's got a problem lately. The software seems to be quite inconsistent and sporadic. Considering that it's free, it's a bit tough to complain, however. If anyone knows of some better chat software we could use, please let me know. Missing posts. Hey! That's it! Smoe's seemingly sporadic (I like that word) delivery is what's causing all the heat on the list lately. We actually understand each other perfectly but the missing posts are the catalysts for all the arguments. I do, in fact, have a message out to the Smoe guys investigating the problem. Do we all have cabin fever? I'm not sure I understand the reason for all the arguments of late. Are we all more irritable or are we all less tolerant? Or both? Since this list's inception 55 months ago, I've adopted a hands-off approach to administration which seems to have served us pretty well.... until now. I don't really have the energy or the inclination to start holding the list's hand so I really hope we can get back to the tolerance and kindness that has made this list great throughout the years. Please? Thanks, Les NPIMH: Bob Dylan - "Everything is Broken" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 20:59:11 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: This list mags: loved this post even if you didn't mention me as one the MAIN reasons why you stay here ;-) hell: baby, don't be like that. we'll miss you... :-((( wallyK ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 20:34:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Mo' Covers: Sweet #16... - --- SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > Speaking of different strokes for different folks... > > It's another month, which means another volume to be > released in wonderful wacky and weird world of Joni > covers! > Here's the thing about Bob that is just so great - no matter how much arguing and shenanigans is going on elsewhere, Bob is there churning out his covers with love and enthusiasm, always with a positive word or two (or more). You gotta love that! Keep up the good work Bob - you're a real prince! Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 01:56:15 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Blame it all on Smoe > Missing posts. Hey! That's it! Smoe's seemingly sporadic (I like that > word) delivery is what's causing all the heat on the list lately. We > actually understand each other perfectly but the missing posts are the > catalysts for all the arguments. I do, in fact, have a message out to the > Smoe guys investigating the problem. Thank 'whoever' for that. we aren't going mad after all! > > > Do we all have cabin fever? I'm not sure I understand the reason for all > the arguments of late. Are we all more irritable or are we all less > tolerant? Or both? well there have been TWO full moons recently! It seems there is a full moon every month. > > > Since this list's inception 55 months ago, I've adopted a hands-off > approach to administration which seems to have served us pretty well.... And one of the main reasons this list is popular and well liked. Okay, so we are having a rough patch -must be something in the air-whatever, you have done a fine job, Les. > > until now. I don't really have the energy or the inclination to start > holding the list's hand so I really hope we can get back to the tolerance > and kindness that has made this list great throughout the years. > > Please? I am sure it will get back to normal with real wars about real subjects! bw colin > > > Thanks, > Les > > NPIMH: Bob Dylan - "Everything is Broken" - -- bw colin colin@tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk http://www.geocities.com/tantra_apso/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 02:01:11 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: our differeing tastes Catherine McKay wrote: > --- Tyler Hewitt wrote: > > This will get some peoples' blood pressure up, but > > two > > names spring to mind for me when I think of BAD > > vocalists (outside of the obvious like Mrs. Miller): > > Fiona Apple and Stevie Nicks. > > > The worst i have heard in a long time was Aimee Mann. I couldn't believe my ears especially as she has been so praised here. each to their own of course and I make no judgement upon her talent or upon those who love her. I really was shocked by how awful the sound was. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 02:08:28 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: In defense of Yoko NJC When people lose something they hold dear, it is easier for them to deal with if they find someone to blame. hence the hatred of Yoko and Linda.(at least here in the UK Linda was hated 'that bloody Yank'). I too dislike McCartney's stance on vegginess(even tho i was one for many years) and his late wife's. I also am not keen on him because of ignorant homophobic remarks he made during an interview on tv(unedited). These were not accidental remarks but blatnet-like he thought gay marriage and gays on tv were disgusting etc. As for Yoko and her 'art' each to their own. What is one person's meat is another's poison. So it should be. Wouldn't it be dull if we all like the same thing? There'd be no variety, and there would be no where for 'diiferrent' artists to exist. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 18:10:10 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Blame it all on Smoe Vega$ Les wrote: > I've been out in Vegas on business ringing the bandit's bells (thanks > Bobster) for the last week and have not been reading the list at all. Hope you raked in a few chips while you were there ;-) > Missing posts. Hey! That's it! Smoe's seemingly sporadic (I like that > word) delivery is what's causing all the heat on the list lately. We > actually understand each other perfectly but the missing posts are the > catalysts for all the arguments. I do, in fact, have a message out to the > Smoe guys investigating the problem. I'm missing some, getting others in double and some I've sent never showed up. I think it might be adding to the arguments, too. But even when we get all the posts, sometimes we don't read them carefully or all the way through before replying - I am guilty of this myself - got to slow down the speed reading sometimes ;-) Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 21:18:07 EDT From: Relayer211@aol.com Subject: Three Dog night I read in the Robert Christgau record guide that Three Dog night covered a Joni Mitchell song. Does anyone know which song it is? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 21:20:28 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Bjorko Ono In a message dated 4/9/01 2:19:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tahewitt@yahoo.com writes: << Her Plastc Ono Band album realy rocks! >> If you have the same Plastic Ono Band album I have, then it's all John's songs. Plastic Ono Band was the name of John's first solo album, with Working Class Hero, Mother, God, I Found Out, Love, Look at Me etc. Was there another? Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 21:21:18 EDT From: Relayer211@aol.com Subject: Joni's autobiography Does anyone know if Joni has written her autobiography yet? And when it may be published? I have read an interview with her where she said she planned to write more then one volume because one volume wouldn't be enough to encompass her life. She said the first line of the book would be (From what I remember)"I was the first black man to arrive at the party." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 18:21:12 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: This list Mags, That was a very beautiful and sweet post. I wish I could underscore all you said and send it back, especially this part: > Hell, you have given so much to our Joni community with your humour, insight, > intelligence. You have generously shared Kiwi music. You sent a couple of tapes > which I know took a lot of time, effort and energy to put together, at no cost > to me, and you asked for nothing in return. You give out of the generosity of > your heart with a desire to share the music of your community and your life. You are much appreciated, Hell. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 20:29:40 -0500 From: "kerry" Subject: This List NJC Thanks Mags for your post. Hopefully, it will help everyone re-focus and start over. I've been thinking about the all of the problems lately and believe that it's no different than real life. I used to watch the news every day, but now sometimes it gets so depressing that I take breaks for days. Sometimes, when tensions are strained at work, I just want to quit and drop out of society. If I hear an awful story about animal abuse, I want to hide my head under the covers and cry. The point that there is so much negativity in the world, we just have to work harder sometimes to find the good stuff. Joni's music (and music in general) is one of the best things about life for me and the reason we are all here. When it comes to spirituality, I find it in a beautiful melody, a line in a song or book that makes me say, "WOW," a work of art that breaks boundaries, being out in nature, and the magic that can be found in human relationships. I'm not saying that all of this is easy to find or that life is fair or great all of the time. We just have to take the good with the bad and the ugly and keep on going...... Kerry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 21:37:20 -0400 From: Gary Zack Subject: Re: Three Dog night Hi, That would be "Night In The City" which appears on their album, "Harmony." Best regards, Gary Relayer211@aol.com wrote: > > I read in the Robert Christgau record guide that Three Dog night covered a > Joni > Mitchell song. Does anyone know which song it is? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 22:10:53 -0400 From: "C.A. Starkey" Subject: Re: In defense of Yoko NJC What did he say? I never heard of this! Oh god, don't tell me Paul is homophobic!!! Everything he is doing lately is bothering me so! :( Re Yoko: I don't mind people not liking something, it's the rudeness, aggressiveness, and childish behaviour tha I can't stand if people just said, "Well, I don't like Yoko's art." That's fine, one person's pudding is another person's poison, but it's when they go into the tirade about "Oh, she broke up the Beatles!", "Aack! She's not managing John's estate right!" Stuff like that really grates on my nerves. Please let me know what Paul said. I never heard of this! Carol >I also am not keen on him because of ignorant homophobic >remarks he made during an interview on tv(unedited). These were not accidental >remarks but blatnet-like he thought gay marriage and gays on tv were disgusting >etc. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 22:52:55 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: List woes...... NJC After putting my foot in my mouth way too often, a wise, Native American (honorary) took me aside and gave me some advice. His name is "Running Water" and he quoted a Spanish proverb to me. He said, "Boca cerrado no entra mosca." Not the life of the party, Lama 2001: Now quieter than ever! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 22:43:14 -0700 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: This list - NJC Hell- This is so sad for me. I enjoy the list for all the same reasons you have expressed and I too am weary of all the BS lately. All I know is that we are ALL human and WHATEVER sets us apart or draws us TOGETHER is valid in its own way, but I feel the need to be positive and avoid the negative at ALL costs. I am sure that the negative reaction is to withdraw completely. I NEED so many elements of this list in my life, but rebel (I am sorry that's negative) against the BS. Try to skip the BS at all costs and embrace all that you hold dear here, because you may be one of the elements that one of us may hold dear and the less there is of THAT, the less reason there is for ALL of us to stay. Once again today I lost a very dear friend (Paul Robinson) that probably NEVER used a computer in his life and I think about the people, like him, that I have met thru this damn thing, and I wonder how full my life would be without you ALL. Love Michael P.S. Rest easy! on 4/8/01 11:10 PM, hell at hell@ihug.co.nz wrote: > I joined this list for two reasons. > > 1. To find and share information about Joni Mitchell, my favourite > singer/songwriter/artist/poet. > 2. To make the acquaintance of people around the world. > > Since I've joined, I've achieved both those goals, and since the split into > NJC and Joni-Only, I've discovered lots of great new music (eg. Jonatha > Brooke), books, authors, actors, movies, etc., and I've had some wonderful > (and intelligent) discussions on some incredibly varied subjects. I've > loved this list and believe I've made some real friends here. It always > seemed a place where opinions were valued, not denigrated. > > But recently every second post seems to be someone attacking someone else's > opinion - and Marcel's post on Bjork, whether you liked it or not, was still > just his opinion, expressed as he felt was his right - then it's someone > else defending the original post, then someone else defending the opposer, > etc., etc., etc. I'm sick and tired of wading through my daily mail, for > the 10-20% of posts that are actually constructive. I've used my delete key > more than the scroll key lately, which annoys me considerably. > > Seems like we've lost track of what we're about, and I don't think we can > any longer claim to be "the nicest, friendliest discussion list on the > 'net." > > This being the case, I'm unsubbing for a while, until people can accept that > not every opinion will be the same as theirs, and that yes, sometimes people > may write something that someone else finds offensive. The answer (and I've > said it before recently, but maybe it was missed in the deluge of "I don't > like what you said" posts) is the delete key. For God's sake, if you were > in a room of 600 people, would you agree with and/or even like every person? > I don't think so, so why should you expect it here!? > > I'll be back but it might be a while. Maybe when I return, people will have > worked out how to be civil to each other again, and be a little more > accepting of the fact that we're all very different, and only united by one > thing. Joni. > > Helen > ____________________________ > "To have great poets, there must be > great audiences too." - Walt Whitman > > hell@ihug.co.nz > Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: > http://www.nbls.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 22:43:29 -0700 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: List woes...... NJC Profounder words may have NEVER been spoken! Love to you Jim, Michael on 4/9/01 7:52 PM, Jim L'Hommedieu at jlamadoo@home.com wrote: > After putting my foot in my mouth way too often, a wise, Native American > (honorary) took me aside and gave me some advice. His name is "Running > Water" and he quoted a Spanish proverb to me. He said, > > "Boca cerrado no entra mosca." > > > > > Not the life of the party, > > Lama 2001: Now quieter than ever! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 00:05:12 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: In defense of Yoko NJC Great response, Tyler! Wow. This is the clearest illustration of art versus pop culture that I've ever read, and an accurate defense of Yoko at the same time. Yoko draws fire because she's Asian (so racism can be "safely" expressed), a woman (how about some misogyny too), and her art has always been way ahead of its time, i.e., most people would not be able to understand it as it's being done (so let's throw in some fear of whatever's new and not instantly understandable into the mix also), and she "stole" John (not only a woman but a damn powerful one if she did that and *all by herself* broke up the Beatles. It's silly to think that, isn't it? and is completely disrespectful of John; I prefer to believe he had some choice in the matter). Not everyone has to like Yoko's work. Of course not. However, sarcastically denigrating her, without making ANY attempt to understand her efforts, says everything about the ignorance of the speaker and nothing at all about the value of what Yoko's done. Artists aren't responsible for anyone's lack of education or curiosity or willingness to learn or willingness to be open to something new. Tyler Hewitt wrote: > ...I know that there have been > many "artists" who have no ability... > > Name some. Outsider artists don't count. "No ability" is a code phrase and the speaker usually means the artist is not drawing or painting representationally. Most artists have a strong visual sense and can indeed draw a representation of something in the real world, *if they choose to*. Usually that's why people get into art in the first place. That is barely the beginning of art's possibilities, though. Ten-year-olds judge art to be good depending on the degree of realism achieved, and while they are trying to get a grip on the world it makes sense they would think so literally. To them a "good" drawing is one in which a tree looks exactly like a tree. Adults who still think that way are way behind in their art appreciation abilities (and I would say in their life appreciation abilities, too). > From the original message: > ...Just picture if you would that Yoko was a vocal > born again Christian. Do you really think she would > get any praise for her art? First off, it can't be pictured. There's no way she would be doing the avant garde explorations she's done for decades if she was a born-again Christian. Isn't part of being born again the sense of "finding the answers" and being very happy about that? Yoko is all about asking questions. Viewers have to be willing to continue to ask questions too. Secondarily, if the original message writer is asking if Christians get positive attention for what they do, I'd say listen to all the "thanking God" that goes on when people are given awards, especially Grammies. It seems that anyone NOT willing to claim Christianhood would be at a disadvantage. That is popular culture, though, which aims to please the largest number of people, whereas art, ideally, aims to express the artist's truth regardless of people's reactions to it. I did say IDEALLY. > ...If Yoko had not screwed John lennon she would never > have been recognized for anything. It was only because > of her relationship that she was allowed access to the > entertainment industry. You may disagree but thats my > take. > > And your take is sexist, ignorant and (horror of > horrors) makes the assumption that the entertainment > industry is the pinnacle of creative success. Greater > heaps of bullshit I havn't encountered in a while! Me either. Another woman-hating message on this list. "If Yoko had not screwed..." Damn. That's getting beyond annoying now. And it's laughable to think of the entertainment industry as even nurturing art at all, much less being the ultimate in artistic achievement when one succeeds in that arena. > Yoko had achieved a great deal of notariety and > success in the art world years before she met Lennon. > She was a prime mover in the Fluxus art movement, an > extremely significant development in art that paved > the way for conceptual art, performance art, and > postmodernism. She was also instrumental in opening up > the art world to women and minorities (that's still > much more of an ongoing battle than it ever should > be). > > I would argue that hooking up with John was very BAD > for her career. All of a sudden she was held to a new > standard-the considerably less important yet more > influential word of pop culture. Yoko's ideas, while > extremely important and relevant to the art world, > were seen as weird to the world at large. John tried > to help people to see the beauty of her ideas, instead > was seen as being sucked into her circle of weirdness. > > Had Yoko not met John, I think we would see Yoko Ono > work in the collections of major contemporary art > museums around the world. We would relate to her the > way we relate to Robert Rauchenberg or Gerhard Richter > or John Cage. Instead, she is, to the vast majority of > those who have heard of her, 'that asian bitch who > took the Beatles away from us'. I love these three paragraphs and say, yes, I agree to it all. The people that now go ga-ga over Van Gogh and the Impressionists and then make fun of contemporary art are no different in attitude than the people who made fun of Van Gogh during his lifetime. It took 100 years for most people to appreciate what Van Gogh and the Impressionists were doing. It may take that long for Yoko too. Her efforts are in a completely different league than the Beatles. She's art; the Beatles are popular culture. The two can't be compared, and if they are, then the Beatles are the ones lacking in substance, enjoyable as their music is. > Think back for a second. Ever had one of those life > changing moments where all of a sudden everything you > know to be true is suddenly called into question? > Where your little mind gets blown so wide open that > the new ideas come rushing in and crowd out everything > else? For some people, their first acid trip did this. > For others, reading 'Catch 22' did it. For John, it > was Yoko. This paragraph is great! It now has me thinking back, too, and even looking forward in anticipation. Thanks, Tyler, for your entire post. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 00:30:03 EDT From: Coyote4Joni@aol.com Subject: Re: Three Dog night In a message dated 04/09/2001 6:31:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Relayer211@aol.com writes: I read in the Robert Christgau record guide that Three Dog night covered a Joni Mitchell song. Does anyone know which song it is? Coyote Rick Responds: Heck, I don't know either, but as a huge TDN fan, I'd love to know myself. Oh, you make me weary... Coyote Rick Casa Alegre Hollywood, California ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 00:50:32 EDT From: Coyote4Joni@aol.com Subject: Re: Blame it all on Smoe In a message dated 04/09/2001 4:43:45 PM Pacific Daylight Time, les@jmdl.com writes: Les wrote: Since this list's inception 55 months ago, I've adopted a hands-off approach to administration which seems to have served us pretty well.... until now. Coyote Rick responds: Didn't Joni write something about "it's just a phase, seems to me?" I don't think we should take this cabin fever too seriously. I think it's just because Joni hasn't: a.) released an album in a year, b.) set up a concert schedule, c.) had another art opening, d.) had another artist paying her praises (that we could buy, tape, or otherwise record), d.) nor been spotted anywhere of interest. and we are all getting a little bitchy. Hello? Joni? OK, so let's all make something up. So, Joni is doing a star turn at the Hollywood Bowl. I think this will be her first time at my favorite (acoustically incorrect, for now anyway) venue. The first song from her repertoire is, oh I don't know, let's say, Coyote. She does the song, then gives a ten minute lecture to and about all the Coyotes of the world. Then she opens the concert up to audience requests. Someone(s) suggest the playlist. Coyote Rick Casa Alegre Hollywood, California ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 23:44:15 -0500 From: Richard Rice Subject: What I'd really love to ask Joni. Ok, I'd never have the heart to do it, but if there were a few questions I could honestly, honestly ask of Joan....I would ask: Would you be my friend? Can I have a key? Will you paint me a painting? Will you promise me at least 3 more original recordings? (One with a tight jazz band. One acoustic. One, whatever you like. All with lots and lots of words!) - -And after she says yes to all four, I'd probably fall flat on my face and die of happiness. John, not Rich. Looking for a geenie... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 22:35:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Tyler Hewitt Subject: Ono-more Yoko! OK, I don't want to keep this going on forever, that's not my intent. I could respond to every rediculous and ugly thing in marcel's last post. Instead, I'll keep it very brief. ..."To appreciate the idea over the craft". That is ridiculous when you are talking songs, musical performances, and the like. Darling, substitute the word 'attitude' for 'idea' and that explains 95% of rock music, both past and present. I could talk till my tongue turns blue listing bands who have little if any talent and have achieved success. And you know this is true. In Yokos case it had everything to do with who she fucked. If she had fucked Stewart Sutcliffe she would have been in Hamburg still an unknown just as the Artist he was with was. I mean thats pretty hard for you to refute and be real. Well, wasn't Sutcliffe dead by the time Yoko met John? Necrophilia would have been pretty attention getting, I think! Seriously, You're confusing fame and successs, as you have done many times throughout your post. Money isn't everything. If it was, We'd have been treated to Court & Spark pts. 2,3,4,5, etc. <<>> ...High sounding terminology but at best only one of any number of fleeting contemporary classifications of stuff so banal that it is given a name only to make sure no one mistakes it for something real and important. How can i say such blasphemy...one of my best friends wives was a real modern artist who had real exhibits and teaches at Berkeley and thats what SHE said. So a friend of a friend says something and it becomes the truth? So teaching at Berkeley makes one an expert? Please. I'm not trying to toot my own horn, but i am an artist as well. I have real exhibits (go the the Evanston Art Center in Evanston, IL before April 20 and see for yourself). I teach. I was fortunate enough to obtain my MFA degree at one of the highest ranked art schools in the country. One thing I can tell you-all this don't make me THE expert in art. Same for your friend's wife. What of all the books written about Fluxus? Does scholarly research count for anything? Seems to me it should count for a little more than the attention given to a bunch of Beatles hangers on who got pissed when the gravy train dried up. ...Im sorry but performance art includes covering yourself with shit to make a political statement. In other words its literally anything. That is not significant. But it is Yokos claim to fame. To my knowledge Yoko has never covered herself with shit. In fact, performance art is but a small fraction of her artistic output. I'll agree with you that there is a lot of bad performance art out there. Claiming that Yoko is responsible for all of it is like saying that the person who invented movable type is responsable for Harlequin Romances. ...Your politics are showing through and overwhelming your better judgement. You demean Okeefe and many other true women artists by making this assumption. I don't recall saying that Yoko Ono was the FIRST or ONLY important woman artist. I credited her with helping to break down the white male dominated art world. I'm a white male, and I hate that white males run the arts. I'm not the only one claiming this, Check out http://www.guerrillagirls.com/ ...Please where are Yokos BEST pieces showing today. There is a retrospective, titled "Yes Yoko Ono' making its way around the country. It will be at the Walker Art Center in Minneapolis, and the San Fancisco Museum of Modern Art among other places. GO! it may open your mind a little. By the way, one of my points in the last post was that Yoko would be better known today AS AN ARTIST had she not married John Lennon. Her work is underexhibited because to the public eye she is a Beatle wife and not respectecd for her own considerable accomplishments. OK, enough of this. I know from all the kind and touching posts I recieved that I'm not the only friend of Yoko on this list. Anyone else wnat to put in their two cents worth? Tyler NP: Yoko Ono-Plastic Ono Band (of course!) Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 03:37:08 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: april 10th!!!!!! njc! dear MARIE [twin sister of one anne sandstrom's], you don't know me but i know you. your little sister anne has requested that i, in my role of most excellent and MIGHTY birthday fairy, greet you on your birthday. as i am a very POLITE and COMPLIANT and SPLENDIDLY JOLLY birthday fairy, i have decided to fulfill little anne's wish and send you a very Emphatic CHEERFUL l o u d b i r t h d a y g Re eTiNg SO HERE IT GOES: HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPY BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIRTHDAAAAAAAAAAAAY MARIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! did you like that? don't thank ME, child. it's all anne's doing. i hereby invite the whole JONI MITCHELL DISCUSSION LIST to greet marie, anne's sandstrom's twin sister, on her birthday. UH... WAIT... WOULDN'T that mean that it is also ANNE'S SANDSTROM's birthday????????? O O P S H A P P Y B I R T H D A Y A N N E !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!! THIS LIST LOVES YOU and your twin sister too. signed: the birthday-hungry birthday fairy. ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2001 #169 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?