From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2001 #160 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Wednesday, April 4 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 160 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. Information on the 4th "Annual" New England JoniFest: http://www.jmdl.com/jfne2001.cfm The Joni Chat Room: http://www.jmdl.com/chat.cfm ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: cute joke njc [catman ] Liz's BYT Question ["Paul Castle" ] Re: Liz's BYT Question [JRMCo1@aol.com] NJC Re: Liz's BYT Question [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] My MTV Life (SJC) ["kerry" ] Re: A photograph of the earth, taken coming back from... njc ["Diane Evan] Re: Liz's BYT Question ["Paul Castle" ] NJC Bollocks? [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Church of Mitchell/Joni's Bar and Grill [Yael Harlap ] Re: NJC Bollocks? [catman ] Re: NJC Bollocks? [catman ] Church of Joni [Gordon Mackie ] Re: My MTV Life (SJC)NJC [catman ] Re: [fionaapplelist] Why No One Answers... NJC [Don Rowe ] Duke University Basketball ["Mike Hicks" ] Re: Lesson in Survival [Kobus Louwrens ] Re: Lesson in Survival [Kobus Louwrens ] Re: Lesson in Survival [Jerry Notaro ] Fisher ["Mike Hicks" ] Re: Lesson in Survival ["Mike Hicks" ] RE: Lesson in Survival ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: Lesson in Survival [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Stolen Lyrics? ["Rob Ettridge" ] Re: Stolen Lyrics? [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Lesson in Survival [catman ] Jonatha Brooke Album of the Week (NJC) [Lindsay Moon ] BYT and Bollocks ["Kakki B" ] I'm New! [Vince Lavieri ] Re: Lesson in Survival [Catherine McKay ] Hatred in "Blue" [Relayer211@aol.com] Re: A photograph of the earth, taken coming back from... njc [Catherine M] Re: Church of Joni [Catherine McKay ] Re: Lesson in Survival [Ian Cropton ] Re: Lesson in Survival [Vince Lavieri ] Re: Church of Joni NJC [Vince Lavieri ] Out of Lurksville [Michael Paz ] Re: [fionaapplelist] Why No One Answers...njc [Randy Remote ] Re: For The Roses [Nancy ] Re: I'm New! [Randy Remote ] Re: Question??..... [Randy Remote ] Re: War of 1812 NJC [susan+rick ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 08:38:53 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: cute joke njc > > "The teeth". >> ICK! > > > rosemjoy@aol.com - -- bw colin colin@tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk http://www.geocities.com/tantra_apso/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 09:32:00 +0100 From: "Paul Castle" Subject: Liz's BYT Question Liz liz@helloworld.tc writes: << Hey there I am a music student, currently writing <"The disc [LOTC, 1970] includes one number, 'Big Yellow Taxi,' >that transmutes a folky idiom - the refrain is a primitive tumbling >strain* [see footnote 1] - into city rockabilly, with agressive percussion >and electric guitars. >* [1] tumbling strain - a phrase invented by ethnomusicologist >Curt Sachs to describe a frequent procedure in primitive musics >whereby a vocal phrase starts at a high, strained pitch then tumbles >wildly downwards with an effect of uncontrolled libido. Funny, (bollocks, even!), I don't hear aggressive percussion (wonder how he'd describe Jungle Line!?!) or electric guitars, and I definitely hadn't picked up on the "uncontrolled libido" in the refrain. No mention of the influence of the ukelele - Kakki wrote a great post about this a while back but can't find it in my jmdl-good-stuff folder - where is she when you need her?? "Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got till it's gone?" Hmmm! For now I'd stick with Muller as my source, Liz. I'm sure it won't be long before he's published :~) PaulC np Wanita - Rokia Traore ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 06:30:29 EDT From: JRMCo1@aol.com Subject: Re: Liz's BYT Question PaulC writes: <> I don't know what "bollocks" means, but musicologically the term "percussion" refers simply to the striking of any musical instrument...not necessarily a drum. In this case, my read was that the author was referring, primarily, to Joni's percussive strumming technique on her guitar during the BYT refrain. However, Milt Holland's percussion work on BYT is certainly pronounced if not "aggressive" and is an integral aspect of the song, in my opinion. <> Keep in mind that "tumbling strain" and "uncontrolled libido" are terms coined by ethnomusicologists, those who study the music of non-European cultures. The terms are merely their operational vernacular to describe certain correlations to "primitive" musical influences, as they see it. In fairness to the author, I should also point out that I took the excerpt on BYT completely out of the context of the whole essay. The passage I selected is not intended to represent everything the author has to say about the album, BYT the song, or the music of Joni Mitchell. The ukelele influence may well be discussed elsewhere. <> I'm going to assume that you mean no offense to me or the author of this book which you haven't read, PaulC. I thought it demonstrated keen insight that Mellers would assess Joni's musical genius, just as he analyzed Beethoven's, and write about it for publication. My only ambition was to provide Liz with a published reference for her report, which she could then agree with or refute, based on her own analysis of the song. - -Julius ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 08:06:28 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: NJC Re: Liz's BYT Question <> Very true, Julius...even a piano is technically a percussion instrument as it's music is made by a hammer striking the strings. The average person would not identify the piano as a member of the percussion family! I found the information that Julius posted to be fascinating and from a great perspective, and I'm sure that Liz appreciated it as well... Bob NP: John Hiatt, "graduated" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 07:19:26 -0500 From: "kerry" Subject: My MTV Life (SJC) Marcel wrote: >>There are a few people I have little shrines to in my house. One is the person who invented the remote control for the TV.>> I would add to your list of great inventions: garage door openers, self clumping cat litter and "snooze" buttons. I don't have a CD player in my car, but received a CD alarm clock for Christmas. Since I can choose the wake-up track, I pick a different Joni song every 3 or 4 days. First, I hit the snooze button, then when I'm semi-conscious, I listen to the song all the way through. It's a WONDERFUL way to start the day; my little Joni Zen moment. This morning I rediscovered that cool little transition between "Lesson in Survival" and "Let the Wind Carry Me." Kerry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 07:49:16 -0500 From: "Diane Evans" Subject: Re: A photograph of the earth, taken coming back from... njc Catherine, Wow! That really is a beautiful image. What boggles my mind is thinking about what all those lights represent: the massiveness of humanity. Wonder what it looked like when candle power was the only night light...maybe someday God will tell us about it. BW Diane _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 13:55:01 +0100 From: "Paul Castle" Subject: Re: Liz's BYT Question > I'm going to assume that you mean no offense to me > or the author of this book which you haven't read, Very sorry Julius - point taken - I certainly didn't intend to denigrate your efforts to help Liz - I agree I probably over- reacted to "aggressive percussion and electric guitars", and I was amused by the reference to 'uncontrollable libido' which I took to mean 'pretty turned on' - which I don't hear on this particular song. Sorry to sound flippant, though. PaulC ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 09:15:07 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: NJC Bollocks? And on another note...what exactly is the origin of "Bollocks"? I think of it as the equivalent of "Bullshit", but don't know if that's really accurate. The first time I heard it was in reference to The Sex Pistols LP. Bob NP: John Hiatt, "Before I Go" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 08:22:02 -0400 From: Yael Harlap Subject: Church of Mitchell/Joni's Bar and Grill Brian Symes said: Cactus tree Omelets, Sounds a little scary to me. Ouch. - -Yael NP: BBC World News Report ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 09:38:38 -0400 From: "louis.lynch" Subject: Re: NJC Bollocks? Bob writes: >And on another note...what exactly is the origin of "Bollocks"? > >I think of it as the equivalent of "Bullshit", but don't know if that's really accurate. The first time I heard it was in reference to The Sex Pistols LP. To Irishmen, and I think Englishmen as well, bollocks are specific parts of the male anatomy, generally two in number and plural. Occasionally, in extreme undescended cases, you may encounter only one bollock. As in: "Bollocks," said the queen, "If I had them, I'd be king." When used as an expression, the word bollocks can be quite flexible and mean just about anything you want, as long as you have the balls to say it. Regards, Harper Lou ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 15:04:16 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: NJC Bollocks? > Occasionally, in extreme undescended cases, you may encounter only one bollock. > When I was a boy and we were all in line at school for a medical and having our goolies inspected in public(abusive or what), I was packed off to hopsital because my bollocks had not descened. if they had bothered to ask me I could have told them that they retreat when i an nervous, upset or cold. (But why would anybody ask a child?) At 42 they still do! And I have had no problem with them. they have given me much pleasure. To describe something as the 'dog's bollocks' as someone did abotu Joni, means that they are just the best. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 15:05:17 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: NJC Bollocks? SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > And on another note...what exactly is the origin of "Bollocks"? > > I think of it as the equivalent of "Bullshit", but don't know if that's really accurate. It is about right. > The first time I heard it was in reference to The Sex Pistols LP. > > Bob > > NP: John Hiatt, "Before I Go" - -- bw colin colin@tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk http://www.geocities.com/tantra_apso/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 15:13:36 +0100 From: Gordon Mackie Subject: Church of Joni Adding to the great theological debate of our lunchtime, would St Joan of the 'arc of a modern romantic relationship ' be a disciple. ( sorry how arch is that) .We could sell 'All along the watchtower' ( wrong artist... but it is a homage) door to door, sing hymns to Her, and make our own personal Hejira to Saskatoon. We'd need some commandments though....hmmm..e.g. 1. Though shalt not have any other God but She. etc. Any others?? Gordon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 15:18:55 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: My MTV Life (SJC)NJC > I would add to your list of great inventions: Glasses(specs) computers!!!!! telephones music recordings books films microwave ovens spinning wool sheep knitting machines ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 08:18:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: [fionaapplelist] Why No One Answers... NJC This cracked me up too! But honestly, would you have expected any less ... or an different? Don Rowe (who will NEVER, EVER impersonate "cuntspanks" ... so don't even go there!) ===== Visit me anytime at http://www.mp3.com/donrowe Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 13:05:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: NJC - --- catman wrote: > > when was the last time any American here was > attacked by a > > Canadian -- > > Joni's maid? > > > so we have done a good job! > > > > (the Rev) Vince Good one, Catman - takes the Brits to save the Canadians. How typical! But Rev, we won the war of 1812, didn't you know? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 15:14:28 -0500 From: "Mike Hicks" Subject: Duke University Basketball Congratulations to Duke University on winning their 3rd National Championship. And, more importantly ,doing so with such class and sportsmanship. This coaching staff and players emulate what college athletics should be about. Mike ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 09:51:49 +0200 From: Kobus Louwrens Subject: Re: Lesson in Survival >From: >> Anyone else have crucial "Joni got me through it songs?" Let us >know! > Hi I'm relatively new to the list and have lurked till now. I live in Cape Town, South Africa. I discovered Joni through the The Wall concert recording. That made me buy Night ride home from a sale bin a year or so after it came out. The lyrics struck me, but I don't thing I was musically mature enough to really get into it. Only after reading many reverential articles about her and seeing so many other artists praise her, I got Hits on impulse. Hearing the first notes of Urge for going for the first time is a moment I'll never forget: it just immediately penetrated me like the music should have been part of my life forever. anyway, back to the topic. . . (warning: this is quite long) I was in quite an overwhelming situation a couple of months ago. Joni's clarity of thought and courage to confront (and the lyrics of Hejira that kept looping in my mind) helped get me through that. I am a journalist and 4 years ago in the line of duty I got a bit too close to the conflict between gangs and vigilantes in this city. (I also got too close to a bullet, but that's another story...) That conflict has since blossomed into full-blown urban terror with some high profile bombings you might have heard of. To make a long story short: I am one of a number of members of the media that are being subpoenaed to testify against the people suspected of being the vigilante and urban terror ringleaders. The media is being called to testify because the police who were on the scene are so discredited that they would likely harm the state's case if called as witnesses. And of course it is a tricky ethical dilemma for a journalist to let himself be used as the state's eyes and ears. . . So in November of last year I ended up facing jail time for refusing to testify. At the same time my wife and I had to spend a month on the run for fear of being assassinated by the people who thought I might testify. (despite all that: Cape Town is a great place to visit. no, really.) During this paranoid time of travel, not even trusting telephones for fear of bugs and only telling one close friend our whereabouts, Hejira: (fleeing with grace, to fight another day, as I understand it) really helped me through. 'a defector from the petty wars/that shellshock love away. . .' I had to think through some really intense stuff. The sort of things I could until then never even conceive of really happening outside of movies. I really felt the sense of Joni I got from her music helped me see my choices in among that mess. Helped me to not feel like a victim of circumstance and find and use what little power I had left. (the fact that Hejira is an Arabic word and that my faceless enemies were Muslim extremists - and the fact that I'm turning 30 this year - also resonated with that song - 'there is the hope and the hopelessness') that situation has still not been resolved: it is just dormant at the moment and due to intensify again next month when the court case continues. But I'm sure the wisdom of the old familiar songs will be with me then too (okay, that last one is a Janis Ian paraphrase, but she is cool too). Sorry for the long post (and I hope it all makes sense, since English is my second language), but it felt good sharing that. Kobus Louwrens NP: Like a rolling stone - Bob Dylan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 09:47:20 +0200 From: Kobus Louwrens Subject: Re: Lesson in Survival >From: >> Anyone else have crucial "Joni got me through it songs?" Let us >know! > Hi I'm relatively new to the list and have lurked till now. I live in Cape Town, South Africa. I discovered Joni through the The Wall concert recording. That made me buy Night ride home from a sale bin a year or so after it came out. The lyrics struck me, but I don't thing I was musically mature enough to really get into it. Only after reading many reverential articles about her and seeing so many other artists praise her, I got Hits on impulse. Hearing the first notes of Urge for going for the first time is a moment I'll never forget: it just immediately penetrated me like the music should have been part of my life forever. anyway, back to the topic. . . (warning: this is quite long) I was in quite an overwhelming situation a couple of months ago. Joni's clarity of thought and courage to confront (and the lyrics of Hejira that kept looping in my mind) helped get me through that. I am a journalist and 4 years ago in the line of duty I got a bit too close to the conflict between gangs and vigilantes in this city. (I also got too close to a bullet, but that's another story...) That conflict has since blossomed into full-blown urban terror with some high profile bombings you might have heard of. To make a long story short: I am one of a number of members of the media that are being subpoenaed to testify against the people suspected of being the vigilante and urban terror ringleaders. The media is being called to testify because the police who were on the scene are so discredited that they would likely harm the state's case if called as witnesses. And of course it is a tricky ethical dilemma for a journalist to let himself be used as the state's eyes and ears. . . So in November of last year I ended up facing jail time for refusing to testify. At the same time my wife and I had to spend a month on the run for fear of being assassinated by the people who thought I might testify. (despite all that: Cape Town is a great place to visit. no, really.) During this paranoid time of travel, not even trusting telephones for fear of bugs and only telling one close friend our whereabouts, Hejira: (fleeing with grace, to fight another day, as I understand it) really helped me through. 'a defector from the petty wars/that shellshock love away. . .' I had to think through some really intense stuff. The sort of things I could until then never even conceive of really happening outside of movies. I really felt the sense of Joni I got from her music helped me see my choices in among that mess. Helped me to not feel like a victim of circumstance and find and use what little power I had left. (the fact that Hejira is an Arabic word and that my faceless enemies were Muslim extremists - and the fact that I'm turning 30 this year - also resonated with that song - 'there is the hope and the hopelessness') that situation has still not been resolved: it is just dormant at the moment and due to intensify again next month when the court case continues. But I'm sure the wisdom of the old familiar songs will be with me then too (okay, that last one is a Janis Ian paraphrase, but she is cool too). Sorry for the long post (and I hope it all makes sense, since English is my second language), but it felt good sharing that. Kobus Louwrens NP: Like a rolling stone - Bob Dylan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 16:18:13 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Lesson in Survival Kobus, Your English is just fine. And so was your post. It's writing such as yours that reminds me that we've have all found the right place through Joni. Jerry np: Seussical (only kidding) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 16:15:39 -0500 From: "Mike Hicks" Subject: Fisher I'm here listening to Fisher's True North CD. I really like her a lot. That song "Any Way" is great. One of my best "lately" purchases along with Nina Gordon and Pete Yorn (is on the way). This guy's Themorningafter cd sounds great. I've heard about 4 songs and all are really good. Anyone interested let me know and I will give overview of the rest. Mike (wow "true north" song is great also) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 16:24:51 -0500 From: "Mike Hicks" Subject: Re: Lesson in Survival > Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 09:51:49 +0200 > From: Kobus Louwrens > Subject: Re: Lesson in Survival > To: cassy , Joni List , MGVal@AOL.COM > Reply-to: Kobus Louwrens > >> Anyone else have crucial "Joni got me through it songs?" Let us > >know! Refuge of the Roads definitely. I must have Hejira on when travelling, and can't wait until that song appears. It's just a natural "trip" song for me. I can just feel the baggage overload and cold water restrooms duting her westbound and rolling adventure. Mike np: Fisher-True North ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 17:30:09 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Lesson in Survival dear kobus, thank you for sharing your story with the list. i've spent two thirds of my life under one dictatorship or another and i know what it means to be on the run. and i also know from friends that your city is very beautiful and worth visiting. welcome home! wallyK ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 16:35:32 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Lesson in Survival <> Hi Kobus, and thanks for your post. I think it's the first time I've seen someone who was introduced to Joni through her performance of Floyd's "Goodbye Blue Sky"! Let me give you an official welcome, even though you & I have previously exchanged some mail off-list. Bob NP: Hole, "Malibu" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 21:54:21 +0100 From: "Rob Ettridge" Subject: Stolen Lyrics? Somebody on the list (sorry, I forget who) mentioned last week about two new bands emerging here in London: Turin Brakes and Kings of Convenience. Both are discoveries that I've been enjoying recently - I guess Joni-minds think alike - and I'm going to a gig next week where they are both on the billing! Anyway, the Joni content: knowing that Turin Brakes have cited Joni as an influence, when I hear their song Underdog (Save Me), the line "screeching little brakes complain" it always reminds me of Just Like This Train. However, I doubt that it actually is Joni connected, at least not consciously. But this in turn reminded me of some blatant Mitchell-thievery that surfaced a year or so ago. I wasn't on the list then, so excuse me if this has already been discussed. Texas (a Scottish band, quite big here, not sure if they've had an impact in the US at all(?)) had a single called When We Are Together which featured the lines: 'you brush against a stranger and you both apologise' It seems to me that this was directly lifted, especially as she (Sharleen Spiterri, the song-writer) has used the exact words, and the phrase 'brush against' when there are many possible alternatives. Of course Janet Jackson did it more obviously and gave Joni full credit, and Joni herself took lines from Camus. Does anyone know of any other examples of Joni-sampling, or Joni lifting lyrics from others? Rob - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 17:20:15 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Stolen Lyrics? <> P.M. Dawn, who are HUGE Joni fans, as well as one of my personal fave groups, sampled "Don't Interrupt The Sorrow" in one of their songs, and they also use her melodic line from "I Had A King" in their song "The Ways of the Wind". Matter of fact, I heard 'Wind' before I heard 'King', and the first time I listened to Joni's first record (1998) it was weird because it sounded familiar, even though it was the first time I heard it! btw, P.M. Dawn's take on Night In The City is WONDERFUL! Bob NP: Hole, "Violet" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 23:29:41 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Lesson in Survival I am filled with awe for people who stick to their principles in such circumstances. Kobus thank you. colin ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 16:28:33 -0700 From: Lindsay Moon Subject: Jonatha Brooke Album of the Week (NJC) Thank you, Leslie, for posting this. I *just* got back from the library where I xeroxed it so I could post it! Ha! Great minds think alike. Lindsay ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 16:25:37 -0700 From: "Kakki B" Subject: BYT and Bollocks PaulC mentioned a previous discussion on the ukelele connection to the music of BYT. Those posts went the way of my old computer and I can't retrieve them now. This may either obscure or enhance the discussion (hey, it's been that kind of month for me ;-) but what I recall reading was an article that was either posted on the list or maybe found somewhere else which discussed how in BYT Joni both drew from the essential Hawaiian slack key/traditional Hawaiian/ukelele sound and also, in turn, immediately inspired many then popular Hawaiian musicians (Cecelio & Kapono, Kalapana, Country Comfort) in the early 70s to incorporate her new-found hybrid into their renaissance Hawaiian country pop music. It was a kind of chicken and the egg phenomenon. For me, it was a very interesting article because it tied together Joni and many of my fave '70s Hawaiian artists, yet the Hawaiian connection had previously escaped me. Most people would think of Hawaiian music as the usual hula stuff, but they actually have a long established tradition of so-called cowboy or paniolo "country" music there since the cowboys came to the islands in the mid 19th century. In that sense, this ties in a bit to some of what the author Mellers described as a form of "city rockabilly" in the song and the influence of other ethnic music. Sorry I can't now provide the link for Liz, but I'm sure it could eventually be found on the web or even in the JMDL articles database. As for bollocks, every time I see that word I think of an old secretary of mine years ago in the days before PCs, word processors and advanced white-out who typed out a weekly ad budget report that went to the president of the company. We had an account "Bullocks" (now defunct California department store) which did a lot of co-op advertising with us. My secretary would ALWAYS type "Bollocks" and often times worse no matter how many times I reminded her of the correct spelling. At one point I just gave up and figured my boss would just have to have a snort at it each time he read the report. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 20:54:04 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: I'm New! I am a new member to the JMDL! Actually, my new address is now official and it is revrvl@chartermi.net Since I have this chance to join the JMDL anew with my new address, let me ask these questions: what does SIQUOMB mean? what is Joni's best album? what is a tape tree? is everyone in here really straight? are all members really Republicans? is George W. Bush a member of the JMDL? (Can George W. even spell "JMDL"? What does NJC mean? What does NP mean? Is Joni a member? Is everyone always friendly here? (I am easily bruised.) Has there ever been a tribute concert for Larry Klein, or at least a tribute album made to honor Dog Eat Dog? (Never did understand why DED did not win a Grammy and TI did.) Will anyone here try to make me their dancing clown? (I hope not, I scare easily.) I have this wonderful idea: why not have a New England gathering every labor day of all the Joni fans? Or maybe, someone could collect all the covers of Joni's songs and put them on a cd or two. Anyway, just my suggestions. I hope to be a happy member of the JMDL! I'm so nervous to see if anyone welcomes me, or tells me to go to heck (naughty words are never used in here, right?), I don't know how to sign my name - something humorous, something anonymous, my real name, whatever, so I will go with an old title, (the Rev) Vince, who hopes that politics and religion *never* get discussed on the JMDL! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 21:01:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Lesson in Survival - --- Kobus Louwrens wrote: > I'm relatively new to the list and have lurked till > now. > > I live in Cape Town, South Africa. I discovered Joni > through the The Wall > concert recording. [...] > During this paranoid time of travel, not even > trusting telephones for fear > of bugs and only telling one close friend our > whereabouts, Hejira: (fleeing > with grace, to fight another day, as I understand > it) really helped me > through. 'a defector from the petty wars/that > shellshock love away. . .' > > I had to think through some really intense stuff. > The sort of things I could > until then never even conceive of really happening > outside of movies. I > really felt the sense of Joni I got from her music > helped me see my choices > in among that mess 1. First of all, welcome to the list, Kobus - another convert to the Church of Joni! 2. After reading of your particular form of,hmm, job-related stress, I will never complain about my job again. OK, i'll try never to complain. I'm only human, after all. 3. If you hadn't told us English was your second language, no one would have known - your English is much better than many "native" speakers. Keep posting! Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 21:05:24 EDT From: Relayer211@aol.com Subject: Hatred in "Blue" Joni has said that that at the time of "Blue",she perceived a lot of hate in her heart. Does anyone have ideas about where the hate was displayed in these songs? The songs where I detect hate are:"All I want",where she explicitly talks about her love/hate feelings for her boyfriend, and she seems to have some hate feelings in LTISR. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 21:27:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: A photograph of the earth, taken coming back from... njc - --- Diane Evans wrote: > Catherine, > > Wow! That really is a beautiful image. What > boggles my mind is thinking > about what all those lights represent: the > massiveness of humanity. Wonder > what it looked like when candle power was the only > night light...maybe > someday God will tell us about it. The cynical side of me wonders how they happened to get the whole world when it's dark and how they managed to get all those lights on. The I-Wanna-Believe-I-Do-I-Do side of me says, "Time lapse photography, OK?" It doesn't look really fake. Although I never realized the earth was flat! ;) > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 21:34:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Church of Joni - --- Gordon Mackie wrote: We'd > need some > commandments though....hmmm..e.g. > > 1. Though shalt not have any other God but She. etc. > > Any others?? > 2. Honour thy father, but not necessarily thy mother. (Papa's faith is people, mama she's always cleaning. For God's sake, Mama, I'm middle-aged!) 3. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's spouse, but thou mayest be a serial monogamist. ... and you know there may be more but a) I have to put the kids to bed (dammit! can't they put themselves to bed?) and I can't remember the rest of the real commandments. Anyone ever notice how the numbers between the Catholic version and the Protestant version are different? Having been raised RC, it really used to confuse me sometimes when people would refer to the commandments by their numbers and they wouldn't correspond to mine. Of course, I don't think the Bible has them listed numerically, so people just separated them where they felt best. I bet the Rev Vince has an answer for that. Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 18:51:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Ian Cropton Subject: Re: Lesson in Survival Welcome Kobus, and thanks for sharing your very moving story. I'm humbled by your moral and physical courage. I prey that peace and healing come soon to your beautiful country. Soooooo glad to hear that Joni's music has helped to sustain you in your time of strife as it has for many on this list. Welcome again, Ian - --- Kobus Louwrens wrote: > >From: > >> Anyone else have crucial "Joni got me through it > songs?" Let us > >know! > > > > > Hi > > I'm relatively new to the list and have lurked till > now. > > I live in Cape Town, South Africa. I discovered Joni > through the The Wall > concert recording. That made me buy Night ride home > from a sale bin a year > or so after it came out. The lyrics struck me, but I > don't thing I was > musically mature enough to really get into it. > > Only after reading many reverential articles about > her and seeing so many > other artists praise her, I got Hits on impulse. > Hearing the first notes of > Urge for going for the first time is a moment I'll > never forget: it just > immediately penetrated me like the music should have > been part of my life > forever. > > anyway, back to the topic. . . (warning: this is > quite long) > > I was in quite an overwhelming situation a couple of > months ago. Joni's > clarity of thought and courage to confront (and the > lyrics of Hejira that > kept looping in my mind) helped get me through that. > > I am a journalist and 4 years ago in the line of > duty I got a bit too close > to the conflict between gangs and vigilantes in this > city. (I also got too > close to a bullet, but that's another story...) That > conflict has since > blossomed into full-blown urban terror with some > high profile bombings you > might have heard of. > > To make a long story short: I am one of a number of > members of the media > that are being subpoenaed to testify against the > people suspected of being > the vigilante and urban terror ringleaders. The > media is being called to > testify because the police who were on the scene are > so discredited that > they would likely harm the state's case if called as > witnesses. And of > course it is a tricky ethical dilemma for a > journalist to let himself be > used as the state's eyes and ears. . . > > So in November of last year I ended up facing jail > time for refusing to > testify. At the same time my wife and I had to spend > a month on the run for > fear of being assassinated by the people who thought > I might testify. > (despite all that: Cape Town is a great place to > visit. no, really.) > > During this paranoid time of travel, not even > trusting telephones for fear > of bugs and only telling one close friend our > whereabouts, Hejira: (fleeing > with grace, to fight another day, as I understand > it) really helped me > through. 'a defector from the petty wars/that > shellshock love away. . .' > > I had to think through some really intense stuff. > The sort of things I could > until then never even conceive of really happening > outside of movies. I > really felt the sense of Joni I got from her music > helped me see my choices > in among that mess. Helped me to not feel like a > victim of circumstance and > find and use what little power I had left. > > (the fact that Hejira is an Arabic word and that my > faceless enemies were > Muslim extremists - and the fact that I'm turning 30 > this year - also > resonated with that song - 'there is the hope and > the hopelessness') > > that situation has still not been resolved: it is > just dormant at the moment > and due to intensify again next month when the court > case continues. But I'm > sure the wisdom of the old familiar songs will be > with me then too (okay, > that last one is a Janis Ian paraphrase, but she is > cool too). > > Sorry for the long post (and I hope it all makes > sense, since English is my > second language), but it felt good sharing that. > > Kobus Louwrens > > > NP: Like a rolling stone - Bob Dylan Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 22:17:51 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: Lesson in Survival Kobus, anyone from SA is especially welcome. (the Rev) Vince ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 22:24:43 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: Church of Joni NJC Catherine McKay wrote: > Anyone ever notice how the numbers > between the Catholic version and the Protestant > version are different? Having been raised RC, it > really used to confuse me sometimes when people would > refer to the commandments by their numbers and they > wouldn't correspond to mine. Of course, I don't think > the Bible has them listed numerically, so people just > separated them where they felt best. > > I bet the Rev Vince has an answer for that. Catherine, you got that right! I posted on that big time back in February 2000 I think. I may have lost the post, but I might still have it, need to check my work computer. It was one of my better posts, too, the Rev vince explaining it all... there are three version: Jewish numbering, Roman-Lutheran numbering, and Protestant numbering. That means that are indeed different commandments as understood by the various church/faith traditions. I'll see if I can find that post. Otherwise I will reconstruct it. Catherine, please be aware that you lose friends every time however weakly you encourage me to post! :-) I'm too full of myself to pass up the opening though, so in a day or so, I'll have something on it! Take care Catherine, (the Rev) Vince ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 22:20:24 -0700 From: Michael Paz Subject: Out of Lurksville Hello Gang- Well I survived another birthday extravaganza again with little or no visible damage. It was a rollocking good time and the music of course was "bollocks to the wall!" I also was treated to front row center balcony House of Blues tickets to see Eric Johnson on Sat. and he was "wicked good" (DO NOT MISS THIS SHOW and heads up "down under" he is headed that way soon. Contact me privatly for a tour schedule). Thanks to everyone who sent me wishes both electronically and via snail mail. I also got some very cool new music, so thanks again to all of you. I have been following along on the list, but have been silent for awhile truly trying to listen for a change. And in silent protest of what happens too often here in our home. I am aware that many people have refrained from posting and I find this comforting and disturbing at the same time. Comforting because again I am reassured that here I can find people of similar heart and mind and that I am not alone in my deep feelings for what this list represents on many levels. Disturbed, because I miss seeing posts from people that I love and respect. I use to bang the drum against certain posts and get up at the pulpit about the non Joni stuff, and the too personal Joni issues, but I think it is wrong to lash out at someone personally for their beliefs and opinions. And I have learned to appreciate the NJC more for its content on my friends personal lives and the related music etc. that we share (see above). Because of the dimension and the dynamic (some people on real time some people on digest) of this discussion list it is hard to truly have a dynamic conversation. I love having a good live argument, but when you are in front of someone in person the dynamic is there. Therefore I find it better to post a feeling of mine, and trying not to compare it to someone elses (making them feel like I am attacking them) and represent my feelings instead of trying to interpret the meanings of other peoples posts. I find that many times it is peoples attempts at humor that offends us and of course some of those are some of the funniest things I have ever read. I am trying to appeal to the intelligence and human side of all of us that would make this place more comfortable for all of us. It is good when we can bring our troubles here and find comfort and understanding amongst friends. Seeing the post from our new friend Kobus in South Africa reminded me of one of the things I love most about this place, we are led her be the same vehicle and whatever great power that she has always makes me feel wonderful to know 1000's of miles away there is someone like me that has a list of troubles and blessings in their lives, and that they are touched by the magic of Joni Mitchell. No matter how many times I hear those stories they all have the make the same glow in my heart. I wish everyone peace and understanding in your lives and hope that future days will provide us a smoother ride with no more hatred slung at one another. Welcome to all the recent newbies and delurkers out there and hope to see you all at a JoniFest near you soon. Love Paz NP-Soundtrack to Peter Gunn (a CDR present burned from vinyl cool!) :-) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 05:10:35 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: [fionaapplelist] Why No One Answers...njc catman wrote: > One, who is Fiona Apple? > 2. did these people not go to skool? They can't even spell bad words! > 1. Some (like me) would say she is the best singer-songwriter to come down the pike since you-know-who. Her first album, "Tidal" was widely hailed as a work of amazing artistry. The single, "Criminal" stayed on the charts for months. All the more amazing that she was just nineteen when the album was released. Her followup, "When the Pawn...." was even better, but sold modestly compared to expectations. We have gotten some UK people on the list, but they say FA is not too well known there. 2. pIthetek, isnt' it. An update on the list: one of the original members and one of the coolest people on the list has decided to quit because of the degenerate hostile environment. Deja vu. I do wish people wouldn't cede the high ground to the low lifes.... "If Jennifer Lopez could write songs like Fiona Apple's, she wouldn't have to spend so many hours at the gym." -- GARBAGE's SHIRLEY MANSON ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 23:47:30 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Nice post, NJC Marcel, I liked your post about listening to music in the car. It was entertaining, skillfully written, and I identified with it. Lama ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 23:34:53 -0500 From: Nancy Subject: Re: For The Roses I'm glad this list is here, too. It's a diverse group of people, and it's Joni that we all have in common here.. If something someone has posted doesn't interest me, I delete it and move onsift through the sand, and keep the gold! Welcome to the list, M. - --Nancy/IA >I just get a kick out of hearing about the latest joni news, gossip, favorites songs, etc., >and then I get on with life... just a suggestion, I'm glad this list is here.. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 09:44:40 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: I'm New! Dear Rev- Welcome to the list! Now we have two Rev Vince's. You asked alot of good questions. I'll try to answer some of them. > what does SIQUOMB mean? It's an acronym for "Stop Imposing Questions Unto Other Mortal Beings" It's from an unpublished opera by Joni > what is Joni's best album? the Hissing Missing Mingus sessions demos, which no one but JM and Henry Lewy have ever heard > what is a tape tree? Didn't your parents sit down and talk with you about this stuff? > is everyone in here really straight? See above > are all members really Republicans? Of course! Except the dirty little commies... > is George W. Bush a member of the JMDL? (Can George W. even spell > "JMDL"? I think you answered that one yourself. > What does NJC mean? I can't remember, nor can anyone else... > What does NP mean? Nordic Poultry in the US....Navigational Polymetry everywhere else. > Is Joni a member? To paraphrase Groucho, I wouldn't want to be part of a group that would allow me to be a member. > Is everyone always friendly here? (I am easily bruised.) Yes, except for full moons, Saturdays, and Joni's Witness holidays. > Has there ever been a tribute concert for Larry Klein, or at least a > tribute album made to honor Dog Eat Dog? No, but I understand Klein himself is making a tribute album for his dog. > Will anyone here try to make me their dancing clown? (I hope not, I > scare easily.) Geez, you are sensitive! You'll never last here. Now that I think of it, the only dancing clown I've ever seen was at the rodeo. > I have this wonderful idea: why not have a New England gathering every > labor day of all the Joni fans? I'm sorry to be blunt, but that is a stupid idea and no one will ever go for it. > Or maybe, someone could collect all the covers of Joni's songs and put > them on a cd or two. I'm not sure you could even fill a CD. Using the CD's as covers for pots and pans might work, though. > Anyway, just my suggestions. > > I hope to be a happy member of the JMDL! > > I'm so nervous to see if anyone welcomes me, or tells me to go to heck > (naughty words are never used in here, right?), If you are going to be that way, then go to heck! > (the Rev) Vince, who hopes that politics and religion *never* get > discussed on the JMDL! Too late, you just brought it up. Like telling someone not to think of Big Yellow Taxi's. Once you suggest it, it's too late. Welcome to the list. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 10:20:38 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Question??..... The pink hotel in the song is a real place on Waikiki beach, Oahu, Hawaii called the Royal Hawaiian. Also known as "the Pink Palace", it is a Spanish Moorish style building, and yes, it is really painted pink. It was built in 1927 and still is probably the fanciest hotel on the strip, although apparently Joni wasn't impressed! Story is she wrote the song after a visit to Hawaii. Waikiki beach is crowded with hotels, bars, swimming pools, and people, but was once a favorite surfing spot for the ali'i (Hawaiian royalty) who were the world's first surfers. It's still a great place to surf, the waves aren't very big, but they are consistent and long lasting. Musically, BYT is essentially a 3 chord song, similar in structure to blues and early rock and roll ala Chuck Berry. RR liz@helloworld.tc wrote: > Hey there > I am a music student, currently writing a song analysis of Joni Mitchell's "Big > Yellow Taxi" What i am seeking out is any information at all, that anybody > might have on the song. I am particulary concerned with the lyrics & meaning, > the lyrics & music relationship, the use of instruments, her folk/jazz style or > anything else that might be interesting to add. > Any info. would be much appreciated > cheers, > LIZ > > -- > Get your firstname@lastname email for FREE at http://Nameplanet.com/?su ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 23:18:01 -0700 From: susan+rick Subject: Re: War of 1812 NJC On 4/2/01 2:53 PM, Vince Lavieri wrote > after we took care of the Canadians in the War of 1812, America hasn't been attacked by them since -- when was the last time any American here was attacked by a Canadian -- so we have done a good job! I'm sure I detect a twinkle in your eye, Rev, but of course you realize that it was the Americans who started the War of 1812 by attempting to invade Canada. They never made it much past Niagara Falls thanks to Canadian militiamen and First Nations fighting together. That whole thing that happened in Louisiana was the fault of the British. Does this count as an attack? ;-) Ranger Rick ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2001 #160 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?