From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2001 #147 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Monday, March 26 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 147 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. Information on the 4th "Annual" New England JoniFest: http://www.jmdl.com/jfne2001.cfm The Joni Chat Room: http://www.jmdl.com/chat.cfm ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Hello [Bruce Kimerer ] Re: the oscars (njc) [Vince Lavieri ] Kakki NJC [john low ] Re: NJC: Oscar Night Post Mortem (md) [Vince Lavieri ] RE: How sad. [Heather ] Re: dinner with joni ["Bill Pearson" ] giddy vs bimbo njc ["Kate Bennett" ] Dinner with Joni (NJC) ["Steve Polifka" ] please NJC [Vince Lavieri ] Let these walls come tumbling down [LeslieMixon@aol.com] Re: NJC: Oscar Night Post Mortem (md) ["Harp@louislynch.com" ] Definition of BIMBO ["Harp@louislynch.com" ] JONI CONTENT FROM BIG SUR [Vince Lavieri ] Re: Hello ["Victor Johnson" ] re: big sur njc ["Stephen Epstein" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 17:49:31 -0500 From: Bruce Kimerer Subject: Hello Greetings I have just discovered this site and its discussion area. Have read the posts for the past couple days and now am seeing how the posting thing works. (Will be curious to see if my message appears in the list of posts I get tomorrow.) (Question: How do you guys quote previous messages in your own? Cut and paste?) I have been a JM fan since Ladies of the Canyon, though I tuned out after Mingus, then got distracted and missed her work of the 80s, and only returned to listening with Turbulent Indigo. That return sent me back into the older material. In looking at the poll results for albums and songs, I was sorta surprised where Don Juan ended up on the list -- and how low Paprika Plains was postioned. Which leads me to my question: Were the unsung lyrics to Paprika Plains that were printed with the album ever intended to be sung? And, if so, were they ever performed in concert? Unfortunately, I have never seen JM in performance. Has she ever performed Paprika Plains? Though at the time of its release I didn't care much for PP, I now think it brilliant and beautiful and very moving. In fact, I wish JM had followed the 'symphonic' muse evidenced in PP a little further. I was sort of hoping the orchestral arrangements on Both Sides Now would continue the sweeping originality of PP, but I was disappointed. Any answers to my PP questions would be greatly appreciated. Bruce (And what does that 'np' mean that people use to list a song at the end of ther posts?) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 17:53:57 -0500 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: the oscars (njc) Robert Holliston wrote with much wisdom: > My favorite moments were: > > - the unexpected win of Marcia Gay Harden, a great actress in a great > performance > - Dino DiLaurentis admonishing the big studios to trust young talent > - Tom Hanks expertly playing along with Steve Martin > - Steven Soderberg winning Best Director for Traffic > I'd have liked to see Ang Lee win Best Director, but was very comfortable with the choice of Soderbergh for Traffic. I was very happy to see CTHD win for best score. > > > My least favorite moments were: > - when Kenneth Lonergan didn't get Best Screenplay for You Can Count On > Me and I'd add the Coen Bros. for O Brother Where art Thou. > > - when Gladiator won Best Picture over Traffic absolutely. Either Erin Brockovitch and CTHD should have won before Gladiatior did, if Traffic was not going to win. and another least favorite moment was Russell Crowe winning for Best Actor; Javier Badem and Ed Harris each richly deserved it, far more than Crowe, and Tom Hanks dceserved it more than Crowe. > > skip < clip> the performance of Bjork, whose appeal eludes me. I'm with you here. > > > That's my Oscar report (see You Can Count On Me, that's all I have to > say about that.) > I'd add Before Night Falls, Pollock, and O Brother to that list (I have already waxed much on CTHD...) with a big big endorsement of You Can Count On Me, a very intelligent, wonderful movie. (the Rev) Vince, who lost all the Oscar contests because of Gladiatior which was ok for a gladiator movie but that was it. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 7:40:22 +1000 From: john low Subject: Kakki NJC Marian in Vienna wrote: >I'm really sorry to hear that Kakki has decided to >leave the list. I have especially enjoyed her >accounts of meeting Joni and other famous people, as >well as her thoughtful commentary on various >subjects. She has contributed so much over the years >and her leaving is a great loss to the JMDL >community. I've mislaid Kakki's email address and I've been pondering her departure for a while, not really knowing what to write. Now Marian, one of the first friends I made on this list, has posted and I feel I can do no better than echo her sentiments. I hope Kakki will reconsider and eventually rejoin. Her lively, in-depth reports on events and musical meetings were always highlights of my jmdl reading. John (in Sydney). __________________________________________________________________ Get your free Australian email account at http://www.start.com.au ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 18:03:16 -0500 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: NJC: Oscar Night Post Mortem (md) Marcel critically opined: > It was interesting that the first film I have seen in awhile was Enemy at the > Gates. Of course Hollywood just couldnt prevent itself from taking a > perfectly good idea like two snipers in a warzone hunting each other down and > mutate it into a "love" story with of course the obligatory screw scene. Only > this time they screw in between two snoring old stinky men in a room filled > with about a hundred old stinky men including one having a cigarette at the > end of the room in an underground rat invested cavern. How romantic. Got to > see her ass though. As Maurice Chevalier would say "But of course" > Right on, my brother. The first 10 minutes of Enemy at the Gates are very good. Then go buy popcorn and don't come back. How anyone could have made the siege of Stalingrad boring is impossible to fathom, but this movie does. "Enemy" also missed all the irony of these two snipers in their own macho little war meaning nothing while tens of thousands are dying all around them, which actually impacted on the siege. And have scenes of death and war and destruction ever looked so antiseptically clean? And that stupid, stupid ending, letting the mother think her son was a traitor rather than the martyr that he was.... oh well, Marcel and I are in agreement, avoid this flick. (the Rev) Vince, playing Siskel to Marcel's Ebert ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 17:47:38 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: leaving the list Dear Kakki, There have been a few times when I, too, have considered leaving the list. Unwarranted meanness often flares up, and that never fails to make my blood boil. Since I hate being angry, and it seems so absurd to carry around negative feelings caused by people I've never even met, leaving the list can make a lot of sense. I respect your decision, and whether you are gone for good or just taking a hiatus, I sincerely wish you all the best. We know that there is no inner circle, but there is a wonderful core of JMDLers whose frequent contributions make the list the lively, informative, welcoming, and engaging place that it is. I know I'm leaving out a few names here, but you, Ashara, Bob Muller, Paz, Jimmy, Wally, and, of course, Les all immediately come to mind as people who make the extra effort to ensure that the list is a daily source of caring, humor, and insight. The loss of any one of you would be catastrophic to the JMDL, so I sincerely hope to see you back again soon. I joined the list last May because I had some extra tickets to Joni's Boston concert to sell. I never expected to become a part of any online community, especially a fan list, because it's just not the kind of thing I would usually do. But I have remained on the list because I have more often than not enjoyed my time here immensely. I hope it will continue to be the incredible haven in cyberspace that it has been. But as Joni says, everything comes and goes . . . so if it begins to look as though the best parts of the JMDL are in the past, then I wouldn't hesitate to leave, either. You will be in my thoughts, Kakki. And remember, if you're ever in my neck of the woods, you'll never need a hotel. Take care, --Bob P. S. This was originally meant to be a private e-mail to you, Kakki, but I think it's important to share these thoughts with the JMDL community. I hope you don't mind. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 14:24:50 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: cheer up! NJC >>>You begin to say heh heh heh instead of laughing<< I did actually LOL on this one but fortunately it came out sounding like a real laugh... ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 17:55:09 -0500 From: Heather Subject: RE: How sad. I will miss you Kakki. Take care. If you want to come back, there are plenty of open arms for you here on the JMDL. Most sincerely, Heather ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 22:51:48 +0100 From: "Bill Pearson" Subject: Re: dinner with joni > From: "Kate Bennett" > > I forgot to mention, on my dinner with joni, although i don't smoke anymore, > i think i would bum one of her american spirits & have a smoke with her > after dinner! I hate one line answers so I'm trying to stretch this out :) Kate - you made me laugh out loud at that one - nice ! As Colin said ealier, I too have missed some messages along the way. Is it a UK thing, that ole time zone getting in the way? Kakki - if you're still out there I'll miss your posts too - count to 10 and come back Bill ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 14:44:35 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: giddy vs bimbo njc Jerry wrote, "Maybe you don't see the difference between giddy and bimbo, but one is definitely sexist and insulting." Thanks Jerry, yeah, there is a huge difference. I think many women are ultra sensitive to this subject with good reason. Sheesh, if it were me I am sure I would be feeling giddy. Let me just take this one step further. We live in a world where misogyny & homophobia are still somewhat acceptable (or in some cases quite marketable), in the way that racism ones was (in jokes, in songs, etc.) This is not a request for political correctness. It is a request to take a deeper look into some of the words that are used to describe people & see how they might be offensive to a group as a whole. In this case women. This isn't aimed at anyone in particular. I think at times in our lives, each one of us (myself included) can stand a little education & cultural sensitivity training. There is a big difference here between political correctiveness (which I view as a superficial trying to be a certain way)& cultural sensitivity (which I view as taking time to understand others). Perhaps I am extra sensitive. I believe words have power. I think it is good to choose them wisely. Thanks for the soapbox. ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 17:28:30 -0600 From: "Steve Polifka" Subject: Dinner with Joni (NJC) Re: Dinner with Joni Rick wrote: She has a table for six -- you are one of the guests, who would be the other four and why? By the way, Joni is picking up the check... Hey all, I would have to ask Bob Muller, Jerry Notaro, Jimmy Stewart and raffle off the last seat with one of Bob's Joni Covers CD's ... Now accepting guesses of a three digit number until hell freezes over... Steve Sorry Michael!!! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 18:54:45 -0500 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: please NJC I responded to Marcel's post regarding Enemy at the Gates - in which I con cur 100% with him on that movie - and then discovered that we have more problems in the list. Respectfully, I submit for consideration that we as a community are getting to a place where we shouldn't be. Have any two people disagreed more and said so in no uncertain terms than Marcel and I? I can remember a time, back in 1998, when we just ripped into each other in ways that are painful to remember now. And while Marcel and I have never met, we have become fast friends. Each of us thinks the other is ignorant (criminally insane) on political matters, but we unite on Joni, and music, and having made enough other connections to know how to take each other. There was a time in 1999 that I was so disturbed by some people that I decided to quit. I vented my little fingers off to Catherine of Aragon (her name then) and Bob Muller. They both said sit tight, lurk, let things be. And they were right. I did what they said. Words don't always mean the same things to each of us. When I was running for County Clerk last fall, I was going to run an ad that said "My opponent is more perky than me, but dull as I am, I am just as qualified for the position." Now, perky to me is Kathy Gifford, all happy and smiling and pretty and is NOT a put down, it is a compliment for a person of accomplishment who has an upbeat personality. As I previewed the ads with others, I found out some people thought it was a put down, implying that she was a dumb blonde. Even more, for some folks in the area, perky was high school slang for a teen aged girl who was generous with her affections with a variety of hormonal crazed teen age boys. In other words, my ad was calling her a slut, not because I meant to say that, but because it would be interpretted as such by some people. I yanked the ad, thank God, in time. What I would have said wasn't the problem, it was what other people thought my words meant. The word bimbo to me connected to a performance by an accomplished actor, Julia Roberts, who had weeks to plan her acceptance, did not mean to me what it meant to others. It implies being spacey, and yes, she was. I was neither as fond of her speech or put off my it as others, although I I was really pulling for her to win. I don't Marcel was calling her anything bad. He is not that subtle. We come from many parts of the country and world with many different grasps of the English language. The very words are not always possessing the same meaning. You know that when the play Grease moved from Chicago to New York they had to rewrite it because Chicago lingo and NY lingo aren't the same, it didn't translate? So can we consider that maybe someone doesn't mean what we think they mean? Yes, we have had out and out sarcastic posts. Yes they hurt. We have had name calling. Bob Muller and I were talking off list about that last week. They have always been a part of this list. Anyone who remembers the flame wars about Columbine and other fun issues in years past... I have posted to people off list and said, knock it off, or, don't let it get to you. I have been a victim of nasty comment and received private emails saying don't let my boat get rocked, for which I have grateful. I've also seen what were obviously attempts at humor being understood as deadly serious. I think the original post that got this thing going this time was a very funny parody of past threads, and it gotten taken seriously. We miss the tone of voice, the look on the speaker's face, so we miss the intent, the tone, the implication of so many things, so I think we have to give people benefit of the doubt. Get mad and want to quit, the vent madly to a couple of people and lurk a while. Or ignore it. Or speak to it. And be ready to give all others here future opportunities for developing relationships. I feel that we are raising the temperature and not always being cool when we don't let things slide that we can let slide, or don't let slide those things that maybe didn't mean what we thought they did. And sometimes, like my super cheap Aunt Ella, you gotta take things as humorous eccentricities and leave it at that and love all the same. It is always hard. Take the words you say in the next week to your family. Are they all loving and sweet, or do we filter things and let them slide. Do we ourselves say things to our family that if printed out in the emotionless coldness of cyber speech would make us cringe? I have gone on way way way too long. A group that embraces Cassy as she shares her health issues, and Mags and Brain in his crisis, and Anne last year in hers, this is a community that anyone can leave? Maybe we need to say, as we do of our children, these people are driving me mad, but there's no one I'd rather drive with, be with. For all the friendships, all the real acts of love and caring and generousity that take place in the JMDL, why can't we look at all these things through those prism? Let's remember the love that we have for each other here and let that be our guide. Should this community be better? In a perfect world, Joni would always be at the top of the charts. We gotta take it as it is. Now I will be quiet in the JMDL for I have said what I wanted to say, albeit not well. I know a good 50-100 people will never read it because it is Vince going on forever, writing another sermon. Some will delete because they never read what I write. Some will skim and save for a later day that never comes. So for those who have borne with me: Ashara, Kakki, everyone, when someone says something to upset you, follow the healing technique developed by the Rev Matthew Sorsensen and myself when we were both in seminary. When confronted by statements that we thought were mean-spirited, wrong-headed, mean, we would repeat the statement in our mind and thinh, "They are assholes and I am not" and comforted by that, with a little laugh in our hearts, we just took things for what they were worth rather than be consumed by them. Offered with love, (the Rev) Vince ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 18:45:23 EST From: LeslieMixon@aol.com Subject: Let these walls come tumbling down I can only imagine how Wally would feel if he'd been here to read the posts of the last few days. Wally was a big fan of Laura Nyro who wrote, "We can build the dream with love..." Wally and Les both built their sites to share the wealth, beauty and love that is the art of Joni Mitchell. I know that I am one of a large group who using a search engine for the first time, typed in, "Joni Mitchell." This group does not include Bob Mueller who had other things on his mind when he first logged on to the internet :-) Our internet community, for me, has always been a sacred space, a special place, if you will. A place where people understood, supported and appreciated my enthusiasm for all things "Joni." Meeting other people who share this passion, including Kakki and Ashara, was like finding an oasis in the desert. "We've got to get ourselves back to the garden." "You and me, we're like America and Russia We're always keeping score We're always balancing the power And that can get to be a cold cold war We're going to have to hold ourselves a peace talk In some neutral cafe..." "Anyone will tell you, just how hard it is to make and keep a friend..." "Lay down your arms..." Leslie ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 19:02:22 -0500 From: "Harp@louislynch.com" Subject: Re: NJC: Oscar Night Post Mortem (md) Ashara wrote: I simply stated that I missed the JMDL community I have grown to know and love, and I am so tired, so very tired of the petty wars, and unkind comments no matter who they are aimed at. === I agree 100% with your sentiment, Ashara. But, having been on the list for about three years, I don't EVER remember a time when the list didn't have flare-ups like this, and worse. What you say about the past list having disagreements without being nasty is simply not true, sadly. As a matter of fact, at one point, just before the BSN tour, I was so thoroughly criticized and belittled by about a dozen list members, that I set my computer to forward any message containing a reference to the JMDL to my Recycle Bin for months. I even considered not attending the little pre-show party at David Lahm's Judy's Chelsea gig. In fact, I almost gave my Joni concert tickets away. I reconsidered, and I'm glad I went. Eventually, I started reading the JMDL posts regularly again, too. I recall being called many rude names in just a few days' posts and private e-mails, because of something I wrote that wasn't even negative -- I merely defended some aspects of the "religious right." I didn't support them or say that I agreed with them, I just said I could see where they were coming from. Boy was I nailed for it. I also distinctly remember that a few people who are claiming outrage about the recent negative posts, Marcel's use of the word "bimbo," and sadness at Kakki's departures were the SAME people who tore me to shreds back them. And I do recall being called a "homophobe" and "fascist" by one person who recently posted how sad it was that people stoop to calling each other nasty names and how sorry to hear about Kakki's leaving. Funny how that works, isn't it? So, actually, my observation is that the list has become much MORE POLITE as it progressed over the years -- some of the arguments used to be really intense. Some of the name calling was downright juvenile. And some of the disagreements were a hell of a lot fiercer than mere "petty wars." That's why I bothered to write, Ashara. OK, granted, you didn't threaten to leave -- technically I misquoted you -- you didn't say you were going to leave, you said you felt like leaving, and semantically they're not the exact same thing. (I stand by my interpretation, though.) You say that's how you feel, and I accept and respect that. But, I don't understand, and you haven't answered my question... Why? Why now? Why after all the years of flame throwing on the list, did Kakki suddenly decide to leave because of one rude post, which may have been said in jest to begin with? Oddly, I think that the list has become so "civilized" that I actually feel comfortable writing to it again. And you're complaining that it's not what it used to be? Don't get me wrong -- I am a firm believer that we need to speak in love and peace to ALL people. Our words are powerful tools and should be used to glorify, not destroy. I have often spoken out against the negativity, too. I consider a few people -- you Ashara, Vince, Michael Paz -- to be exemplary examples of positive people and positive posters. Rarely do you say anything negative, and if you do criticize, you are kind about it. However, I also know a few people on the list who say negative things in jest because they have that kind of sense of humor. And, some of their tartest comments and most outrageous bouts of sarcasm have been met with responses like "LOL" and "ROTFLOL." What am I missing here? Can't we have human failings anymore? I wish everyone who's writing such peace-loving sentiments and condemning negative comments of all kinds would go easy on all the emotional maneuvering for my sake! I'm only a stupid, fascist, redneck, right wing conservative, homophobic asshole. Remember? Confused to his rotten, little, petty, sometimes sarcastic, but truly open-minded, core, Harper Lou ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 19:10:24 -0500 (est) From: "Sally A. Bowers" Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2001 #144 JMDL Digest wrote: > > > JMDL Digest Sunday, March 25 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 144 > > > > The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be > found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, > a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. > > The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains > interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. > > Information on the 4th "Annual" New England JoniFest: > http://www.jmdl.com/jfne2001.cfm > > The Joni Chat Room: http://www.jmdl.com/chat.cfm > ========== > > TOPICS and authors in this Digest: > -------- > Re: one tin soldier rides away ["Louis Lynch" ] > Movie NJC [Vince Lavieri ] > Re: Movie NJC [Relayer211@aol.com] > Re: For The Roses ["Louis Lynch" ] > Joni's portfolio [evian ] > Re: For The Roses [Penny ] > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 22:34:06 -0500 > From: "Louis Lynch" > Subject: Re: one tin soldier rides away > > Nuriel, > > One of my favorite songs, recorded by a one-hit band called "Coven." It was > written by Dennis Lambert and Brian Potter. I have the original sheet music > from when it was a hit on the radio. > > Listen children to a story that was written long ago. > About a kingdom on a mountain and the valley far below. > On the mountain was a treasure buried deep beneath a stone. > And the valley people swore they'd have it for their very own. > > Chorus: > Go ahead and hate your neighbor, go ahead and cheat a friend > Do it in the name of heaven, you can justify it in the end > There won't be any trumpets blowing, come the Judgment Day > On the bloody morning after, one tin soldier rides away > > Now the people of the valley sent a message up the hill > Asking for the buried treasure, tons of gold for which they'd kill > Came an answer from the kingdom, with our brothers we will share > All the riches of our mountain and the treasure buried there. > > Chorus > > Now the valley cried with anger, "Mount your horses, draw your swords!" > And they killed the mountain people, until they won their just reward > Soon they stood beside the treasure on the mountain dark and red, > Turned the stone and looked beneath it. "Peace on Earth" was all it said. > > Chorus. > > In case you want to play it, it's in straight 4-4, two chords per measure: > > Verse: > > F C | Dm F | > Bb F | Gm7 C7 | > F C | Dm F | > Bb F | Gm7 C7 | > > F Bb-F | (one measure turnaround to chorus...) > > F Am | Bb F | > F Am | Bb F | > F Am | Bb F | > F Bb | Bb ... | > > F Bb-F | (turnaround back to verse) > > Regards, > Harper Lou > > - ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nuriel" > To: > Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2001 12:08 PM > Subject: one tin soldier rides away > > > > i was wondering - is one tin soldier rides away a joni song? can anyone > tell > > me more about it? it seems like there's a beautifull story going in the > song's > > lyrics. what's it all about? and who's that awfull singer that performs > it? > > she sounds beyond breathless. can you tell me more? > > yours, > > nuriel > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 23:16:38 -0500 > From: Vince Lavieri > Subject: Movie NJC > > As far as the recent little email wars, please, let's quit it. I am the > moderator of a church online forum and I get enough bickering and > name-calling and sarcastic barbs on that. I come to the JMDL for a > happy community with mature people. > > Les told us to go out and get fresh air, so I went to the movies, where > the air was not fresh, but I finally got to see Pollack. Wait for the > video if you haven't seen it. Ed Harris was good and so was Marcia Gay > Harden, but the film somehow missed telling me what was really under > Pollack's talent and torment. > > Speaking of movies, I have my Oscar picks all made, but rather than > start bickering over who actually deserves to win and whether the Oscars > are a sham and all that, I will make these observations for films > released in 2000: > > one of the best movies that I ever saw: Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, > although goodness knows we've argued about that and subtitles in here > > two movies to see that are splendid films: You Can Count on Me (an > excellent movie, well scripted and acted and very thought provoking > without ever being heavy) and O Brother, Where Art Thou. > > the movie I hope wins the big prize tomorrow: Erin Brockovitch. Hey, > its about legal assistants (which I am by day, the minsitry being for > the night and weekends) and even more, about legal assistants being > smarter than lawyers, and that won my heart! I normally cannot abide > Julia Roberts movies, but what an engrossing film and she was wonderful! > > As well, Traffic was also engrossing, although not as much fun, but > Benicio Del Toro was wonderful and that idea about the bunny heads at > the end of the movie could make smugglers of us all. > > biggest musical surprise: Emmylou Harris and Alison Krauss, with Gillian > Welch, doing the intoxicating (as it should be, the were the Odessey's > Sirens) song "Didn't Leave Nobody But the Baby" on O Brother Where Art > Thou. That song is mesmerizing, in the movie and just as much on the > cd. > > Movie that I knew would be confusing and was: Before Night Falls, since > Julian Schnabel makes confusing films, but Javier Bardem was astounding, > and got me really interested in reading Reinaldo Arenas's poetry, which > I did get some of from Amazon.com. For people who don't mind confusing > films, it is worth it. I defy anyone to pick out the second role that > Johnny Depp plays in Before Night Falls (I know but I was tipped off), > and I'd like to know which role Sean Penn played as I missed that one > entirely. > > movie that was the biggest disappointment: even more disappointing than > Castaway, was Chocolat with its gapping plot holes and garbled script > and utter predicatability throughout. The movie is lovely to look at > but it is like cotton candy, all sweetness but filled with nothing. > > Happy Oscar watching to those who watch, and happy nonOscar Day to those > who don't. > > (the Rev) Vince, remembering today Archbishop Oscar Romero of El > Salvador, who was martyred on this date in, I think, 1980 and I am going > to look that up now. > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 23:11:01 EST > From: Relayer211@aol.com > Subject: Re: Movie NJC > > In a message dated 3/24/01 11:07:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, > revrvl@pathwaynet.com writes: > > << You Can Count on Me (an > excellent movie, well scripted and acted and very thought provoking > without ever being heavy) >> > > thank you for mentioning this excellent,beautiful movie.In addition to > it's very fine acting,It's one of those rare movies where the characters seem > like REAL people,not one dimenional stick figures only there to further the > lame plot. > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 23:27:03 -0500 > From: "Louis Lynch" > Subject: Re: For The Roses > > Scott, Kakki and all... > > What IS going on here? > > Some posters got a little nasty with their words. It might have been > offensive, but we all have said offensive things now and again. For crying > out loud, even Joni herself has said offensive things -- and she has even > been known to call people names. Nonperfect people who aren't emotionally > dead sometimes get carried away and say some mean things. > > Earlier I posted a comment about the rude exchange -- basically that I think > people should be free to say whatever they want on this list, or anywhere. > Surely, if they offend people, they will hear about it soon enough. > > As soon as I wrote that, I received a private e-mail from Kakki, which I > would not describe as polite. I responded that I didn't understand where > she was coming from -- I hadn't called anybody names. > > Now Scott tells us that she has left the list with "customary grace." > > Actually, Scott, your long post sounds like a "customary guilt trip." > > I'm sorry if Kakki feels compelled to leave because she didn't like the > exchange between two people on the list. I didn't care for the exchange > myself, but I have a Delete key on my computer. > > If Kakki was upset with the exchange, she could have expressed her concerns > to them directly. She certainly didn't hesitate expressing her disapproval > of my fairly benign reaction to the exchange. > > I find the majority of posts on this list entertaining and informative. I > have enjoyed reading many of Kakki's posts. > > And I certainly would hope that she also realizes that the camaraderie and > news available on this list has too much value to throw away, just because > she sees an occasional comment she doesn't like. It's not a perfect world > out there. But I have found this list to be a GOOD thing. And the people > on the list are GOOD people. > > I don't think anybody on this list has ever "skewered" Kakki or anyone else. > In fact, from my experience, virtually everyone on the list holds her and > her opinions in most high regard. > > You imply that she's leaving the list because it's not "a place to be proud > of." Scott, that's not the truth and I reject it thoroughly. > > Occasionally things go wrong between people. And, occasionally we are going > to read things we don't like on the list. > > If Kakki feels that occasional disputes or e-mailed offenses are too > overwhelming to remain a part of the list, many people will miss her. If > her e-mails have all been flawlessly polite and sensitive and her dedication > to the list has been as pure as what Scott claims, then we have lost a vital > member of the community. > > But, it is Kakki's decision to lose the community, not the community's > decision to lose Kakki! > > Hope to hear from you again soon Kakki, > > Harper Lou > > > > - ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Scott Price" > To: > Cc: > Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2001 8:44 PM > Subject: For The Roses > > > > It starts with a web search. "Joni Mitchell." You sift through the hits > and > > before long find the Mecca. Joni-Mitchell-dot-com and JMDL-dot-com. You > > have followed her career, every step and every song, for decades. It's a > > glorious discovery...there are others out there who truly appreciate her > > art. Kindred spirits who "get her." > > > > You lurk for a while and one day take the plunge. You wonder how you will > > be received after that first post, and check your e-mail constantly for a > > while, hoping that response(s) will be positive. > > > > A few exchanges begin, on-list and off. Friendships are born. Siquomb is > > spoken. Life is good! > > > > You develop relationships. With the list, with individual listers. > Checking > > for "new mail" becomes fun and important to you. You open up more, and in > > so doing, find that not everyone is nice. You learn that this "community" > > has its share of dysfunction, and if you're a contributor to the list, > > eventually you're going to take some heat. > > > > But your love of Joni's craft is unwavering and you are by nature an open > > and generous person. You couldn't change these personality traits even if > > you wanted. You could lurk, or you could toss it in, but you have so much > > to give, so you stay. And you become a very visible and revered member of > > the community. > > > > Years pass. Concerts, fests large and small, tapings, exhibits. Fate is > > kind. You share the experiences. By default you become a ringleader. And > > you're damn good at it. Serendipity puts you in the right places at the > > right times, and you warmly and skillfully report back to the community so > > that we who are interested may live vicariously through your "real life" > > Joni encounters. > > > > Despite all your contributions, skirmishes develop. Unwarranted personal > > attacks lead to despair. You put so much into the group and would go > > forever without so much as a "thank you" but it's worse than that...a lack > > of acknowledgement would be OK, but the skewering...for what reason? What > > did you do to deserve this? > > > > I don't blame you for leaving. I've gone away before myself a time or two. > > But each time I return it's with a more jaded view. Nobody would lament > > that for me, but for you...ahh...you're different. You represented so > much. > > You were the ideal JMDLer. And now you're gone, perhaps never to return. > > > > It is with much sadness that I announce to the list that Kakki has left > > this "community." She departed with her customary grace and without > > fanfare. She's not pining, she's not sulking, and she doesn't know I'm > > writing this. In fact she is spending the weekend taking care of her > > elderly father. But she's withdrawn from the JMDL, and I thought the list > > should know that. I want you to consider, prior to the next time you > > exercise your right to "free speech" and post away with insulting and > > insensitive words, that if we really want this discussion group to be a > > place we're proud of, we've got to consider how our posts can impact > > others. Please use temperance the next time you put a name or a label on > > someone. That isn't preaching, BTW...it's a plea. > > > > What does a particular Joni song or album mean to you? A question for the > > ages. Tonight I'll put on her favorite, "For The Roses." I'll listen to > the > > music and I'll think of what we've lost. I'll hope that her memories of > > time spent here will be of the good times, not the bad. I'll remember how > > much she has enriched my own experience, and give thanks. A martini glass > > will be raised, the ice cold elixir savored, with one simple thought: > baby, > > this one's for you. > > > > Scott > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 00:22:21 -0600 > From: evian > Subject: Joni's portfolio > > > I hold nothing against Geffen for not promoting this material. > > What possible way could one package these to a mass market audience in > > love with main stream, feel good pap? Do you really think 4 out of 10 > > average music buyers is going to listen to Wolf in Lindsey and think, > > "Coool. Let's get that album for tonight's party!" based on promotion? > > It may have drawn the curious enlightened few, but Joni's music doesn't > > 'fit' the general norm people buy and play music: as feel good listening > > entertainment, to dance to, as atmosphere at a party, or to make love > > to. She's too heavy, too off the beat, to verbose and cerebral, and too > > cynical for general consumption. > > > This is certainly true and right on the mark for Mingus, but I think > that CMIARS and NRN were seriously undermarketed -- CMIARS, in > particular, could have been huge -- had all the right pop hooks, the > gazillion guest artists, etc. However, the label basically left it > there to rot, where it could have shot up the charts. Same thing for > NRN, especially with the recent "come back" of Bonnie Raitt, Rondstadt, > etc. But again, the label chose to throw millions into the latest Cher > album, and spent a bundle on videos of Cher prancing around with her > arse hanging out all over the place. Admittedly, I get really tired of > the Joni "I make no money and the industry is out to get me" stories, > but with those two albums, she's more than justified. > Evian > np: FTR (been listening to this all day, haven't played it for > months... doesn't get any better than this) > ps -- Just finished watching Almost Famous -- what a frigging awesome > movie! > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 23:58:38 -0800 (PST) > From: Penny > Subject: Re: For The Roses > > Thanks for the sad news, Scott. Very well written, but I truly doubt the > ones that need to, can or will hear. > > Kakki, may I suggest something? Lurk or be a "winger", if that latest > term catches on, and then send your wonderful posts to your long list of > list friends who don't go out of their way to reply with digs, mocking, > blanket (mis)characterizations of entire groups of people(s), baiting or > just a springboard for yet another tired rant. Sure, the list proper loses > because they've lost you, but you'll still have an outlet to share your > love of Joni, general music appreciation and vast knowledge with many, > while at the same time being spared the stress of feeling you have to > respond to crap list posts directed your way. BTW, don't blame you a bit > for calling it quits - but make sure I'm on your "send to" list! ;-) > I've always appreciated your thoughtful and well expressed posts! > > > Take care, > Penny > Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > > ------------------------------ > > End of JMDL Digest V2001 #144 > ***************************** > > ------- > Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org > Unsubscribe by clicking here: > mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe > ------- > Siquomb, isn't she? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 19:17:53 -0500 From: "Harp@louislynch.com" Subject: Definition of BIMBO Jerry, How dare you try to tell me or anyone else the word BIMBO is sexist? You're dead wrong, buddy. And Marcel's calling Julia Roberts a "bimbo" is no more sexist than the New York Times calling her "giddy." Before you automatically accuse someone of using a "sexist" word, you ought to learn what the word means. It's an Italian word, and it applies to both men and women. In fact, it is used more often for men than it is for women. Remember, Italian guys aren't fast to insult women, but they'll call each other names in a hurry. My old boss at the pizzeria I worked when I was 16 used to call us guys bimbos if we did something wrong. I never heard Tony call a woman that name, or any other name actually. It used to be a very common word in sports, particularly baseball. I also remember a high school wrestling coach saying, "OK you bimbos, let's...." Or haven't you ever read the New York Post sports pages? The word's Italian, it's a shortened form of "Bambino" (baby). When applied to people, it means "dummy," "childish one," or "buffoon." Note that the word is BIMBO, not BIMBA. It's a masculine tern. I looked it up just to be sure. According to Webster, the first definition is MAN, then woman!!!!! Perhaps you're thinking of the recent term "blonde bimbo," which does have a sexist turn to it. But bimbos have been around a lot longer than blonde jokes. Marcel's post about the Oscars was meant to be witty! Please, people, lighten up! Ciao! Harper Lou - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Notaro" To: "louis.lynch" Cc: ; Sent: Monday, March 26, 2001 11:22 AM Subject: Re: NJC: Oscar Night Post Mortem (md) > "louis.lynch" wrote: > > > Ashara, > > > > With all due respects, Marcel was writing about the Oscars in jest. He has written humorous "reviews" like this before, and I personally find them entertaining. Let's face it, even the Associated Press referred to Julia Roberts' behavior as "giddy." > > Maybe you don't see the difference between giddy and bimbo, but one is definitely sexist and insulting. To "review" a woman who has reached the pinnacle of power in Hollywood, a "man's" town for sure, is to reduce the significance of her achievements. Does Marcel have the right to? Of course. Does he also put himself in a position of critical comment? Of course. > > Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 19:37:08 -0500 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: JONI CONTENT FROM BIG SUR The first song that Joni sings in the video Celebration at Big Sur is, of all things, "Get Together" the Youngbloods song, written by Jesse Collin Young or something like that; will someone correct me? this a close paraphrase as I play Joni's version off the tape with the words she sings as opposed to the textus receptus as I know it. (I made the chorus more inclusive, but I did that at confirmation camp back in the 1980s, so nothing new, actually, I have no brother, so I needed a way to sing it that was real for me) Love is but a song we sing, fear's the way we die you can make the mountain rings, or make the angels cry know the bird is on the wing, although we don't know why if you hear the song I sing, then you will understand you hold the key to love and hate, in your tremebling hand one key unlocks them both, you know, that key's at your command Some may come and some may go*, we shall surely pass when the one who left us here returns for us at last, we are but a moment's sunshine, fading on the grass, Come on people now, smile on each other, everybody get together, try and love one another right now. *it actually sounds as if she is singing "soldiers dying and _____ and all, we shall surely pass" but I can't extract the exact words, so I show the standard text. In short: we hold the keys, it is for us to choose our reactions. Nobody wrote something that ***made*** me upset; I chose to get upset. I could have chosen to ignore, to laugh, to say how silly, but I chose to be upset. I may have good reasons or valid life experiuence to choose the option of being upset in this situation, and I claim and own that. So I step back for a time that I need that is important to me; I do not leave this community that loves and cares and gives to each other even though I am upset, because as I step back, I can own my anger and also own my membership with precious and dear people. They are not all equally precious and dear, but as a community, there is none finer, and I need this community for how it defines a part of my life, for what it has given, and because I will hurt myself or others by leaving these people dear to me. I hold the key. At this time, I have chosen to retreat for a bit, but not leave. I await the time that is good for me to fully re-enter, Understand that my standing off to the side is my way of working through the things that I need to work on, which may be,getting back in touch with how wonderful you are all despite our not being perfect, how wonderful *we* all are when we smile on each other, love one another. (the Rev) Vince now shutting up for good ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 19:34:56 -0500 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Re: Hello Welcome to the JMDL list Bruce! You'll find there can be fun, invigorating discussions about all kinds of things from Joni to Mozart to pondering the very meaning of life itself. To post parts of previous messages in one of your own, you can simply reply to the sender and it will automatically include the former post ( or as you say, cut and post...) As for Paprika Plains, I'll be performing it in its entirity at the next Joni Fest in Topsfield (just kidding...see Marcel's review of jonifest 2000.) I can't answer the other questions though I am sure there is someone who can and will. Victor NP:(now playing) Joni-For the Roses Ludwig's Tune Victor Johnson http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson "Just beyond the morning falls the river of your dreams, Escaping from the day these wild creatures run away." Victor Johnson ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 19:53:13 -0500 From: "Stephen Epstein" Subject: re: big sur njc the Rev wrote: "The first song that Joni sings in the video Celebration at Big Sur is, of all things, "Get Together" the Youngbloods song, written by Jesse Collin Young or something like that; will someone correct me?" No correction needed, Vince! Get Together, from the 1969 album Ride the Wind by the Youngbloods Regards, Stephen in Vancouver ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2001 #147 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?